Moore's Sicko gets early Internet leak

Last I heard Michael Moore is very relaxed about people getting his movies free on the net.

He knows he'll make money on it to fund his next book/movie no matter what.

I've yet to encounter the author/artist/journalist that didn't want their work seen by as many people as possible.

Old news, I downloaded it on Wednesday ;)

This leak has intentional written all over it. If its not supposed to come out until the end of the month that means it is an intentional leak.

Look at movies, games and music. They are all released just a few days prior, sometimes after, cinema release and the reason is so the person that "steals" it early has a smaller chance of being caught.

Peace

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Old news, I downloaded it on Wednesday ;)

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Ugh... congrats I suppose.... but the news is not exactly about the leak, but about the issues it raises instead...

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This leak has intentional written all over it. If its not supposed to come out until the end of the month that means it is an intentional leak.

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The leak is a DVD-Screener, so probably came from a judge at Cannes, where this was screened not long ago. If I'm the first on the board to actually watch it, I'll post with what the scrolling text says but someone will probably beat me to it.

Excellent description of managed care healthcare providers. Socialism is too close to communism for me as far as governmental control. It really makes you wonder where this world is headed. Kind of scary actually. em

I did peep that movie a few places but i didnt watch it yet.

Love it... Great movie... Watching it as I am writing.. Its truely sad.. I have witnessed first hand. When I was a teen, I took a trip to Mexico,right across the border. I was amazed by how many people, young and old, from every walk of life was mainly there to get prescriptions from the doctors there.. I sat in a waiting room, seen a doc, got my sripts and was out with in 30 min... I talked to several people there and this seemed to be a regular thing for them, mainly because they could not either afford insurance or could not afford there drugs even through insurance..
We say we live in a free country, but yet we have less rights than most inmates in prision.....Haha..

Originally posted by revengine:

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It really makes you wonder where this world is headed. Kind of scary actually. em

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We are already there....

The UK & western Europe all manage to have either entirely public medicine (as is the case with the UK's excellent NHS) or private/public partnership arrangements (with things like mandatory private medical insurance).

Our healthcare here in the UK & Europe is IMO far superior to that of any private system......and not one of us is 'communist' by any credible definition.

The US idea is IMO appalling.
Even people who have been good bill-payers can get left up sh*t-creek by an HMO that refuses to pay for their treatment - litterally leaving them to die (there was a massive scandel with their biggest HMO Kaiser over this not long ago).

Your excellent NHS has had its share.

http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/pub...onPR300107.hcsp

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=11895

http://www.boris-johnson.com/archives/2006/01/nhs_scandal.php

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/ar...in_page_id=1774

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/nhs/story/0,,628437,00.html

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/nhs/story/0,,661090,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/5188580.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/5198760.stm

http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2007/0...-8-doctors.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jht...04/nshred04.xml

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/ViewArtic...04&SectionID=55

http://society.guardian.co.uk/bristolinq...,526627,00.html

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1127290

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jan2002/nhs-j17.shtml

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/tm_obje...-name_page.html

http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news...-name_page.html

http://www.norwichunion.com/health/healt...870&c=430016188

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=282652007

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=294232004

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/articl...40&in_page_id=2

http://www.hemophilia.org/NHFWeb/MainPgs...2&contentid=880

http://www.stephenpollard.net/000053.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn...26/ai_n12651232

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/778904.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alder_Hey_organs_scandal

http://therightsofman.typepad.co.uk/the_...sex_wards_.html

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1120890

http://www.ace.org.uk/AgeConcern/6E8D861...23206214BAF.asp

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/content...-name_page.html

http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_headline...-name_page.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/G1557

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn...18/ai_n12613155

http://www.libdems.org.uk/news/scandal-o...rstow.7348.html

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/di...money+go/267598

http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_headline...-name_page.html

http://www.thehealthcareblog.com/the_hea...ty_kaiser_.html

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=2349012005

ETC. ETC.

Plus an entire site dedicated to exposing the NHS:

http://www.nhsexposed.com/

You can cite all the articles and statistics that you want but nothing will convince me that the NHS is as excellent or as trouble-free as you claim. I know this because I have first hand experience and permanent psychological scars.

michael moore is physyco path liberal fat fuck

im glad his movies are leaking

hopefully itll cause his profits to go wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy down

Originally posted by JudyChick:

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You can cite all the articles and statistics that you want but nothing will convince me that the NHS is as excellent or as trouble-free as you claim. I know this because I have first hand experience and permanent psychological scars.

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- .....and you can make all the cut n paste claims you like but I'd take the British NHS over the US private system any day of the week.

No-one said the NHS was perfection itself but it's flaws compared to the eormous (and growing) holes in the US system are as nothing compared.

........and I and my family have years of experience of the NHS and have nothing but the highest regard for it.

Never a bill for medical treatment, ever, not even at and beyond retirement.

Capped (at £190 per course) dental treatment.

Capped optical treatment charges.

Never being asked for an HMO or insurance company to give the OK before any kind of medical treatment (even 'elective' surgery).

We may have periodic problems and problem areas in our NHS but at least every one of our citizens has continuous medical cover.

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...and you can make all the cut n paste claims you like but I'd take the NHS over the US system any day of the week.

No-one said the NHS was perfection itself but it's flaws compared to the holes in the US system are as nothing compared.

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Tell that to my sister's infant son who died at the hands of your beloved NHS.

Originally posted by JudyChick:

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Tell that to my sister's infant son who died at the hands of your beloved NHS.

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- So what are you saying, that no-one else ever lost a child in any other health institution anywhere else in the world?

I'm sorry to hear that but to dismiss the NHS because of a close family loss (like you're the only one) is just wrong.

Mistakes can happen anywhere (even you make them from time to time) and where life and death are concerned of course it's an appalling tragedy for those concerned.

But the point about the NHS compared to US healthcare is our people do not end up forced to go without healthcare; unlike large and growing numbers of American citizens.

How many Americans end up dying because 'the system' simply refuses them treatment?

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How many Americans end up dying because 'the system' simply refuses them treatment?

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None. Anyone who walks into a county hospital may not be denied treatment. It's the law.

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I'm sorry to hear that but to dismiss the NHS because of a close family loss (like you're the only one) is just wrong.

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It's not wrong when the NHS refuses to admit their mistake and no one is held accountable. My family is left with nothing but questions and a lack of closure.

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None. Anyone who walks into a county hospital may not be denied treatment. It's the law.

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- Yeah and what if you can't just walk in, can't afford a Dr, can't afford the medicine you require and simply have no access to proper medical treatment?

Anyone who cares to can read all about the Kaiser HMO scandel, they left people who were good bill-payers on their own to die.

Don;t even bother trying to deny it, it was so huge a scandel that it even made the news over here.

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It's not wrong when the NHS refuses to admit their mistake and no one is held accountable. My family is left with nothing but questions and a lack of closure.

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- I have every sympathy with your view. That is wrong.....but Drs closing ranks and refusing to admit they ever did anything wrong is hardly something confined to the NHS.

The real issue here is not whether the NHS has always behaved in a perfect manner to everyone it ever came into contact with (I know for a fact they have not always from personal experience).

The central point is which method serves 'the people' best.

.....and the British & European way does not leave the large numbers of people out in the cold like the US system does.
That's simply a fact that cannot be denied.

Public health matters to the private individual; it's a shame the USA seems unable to tackle the vested interests that would deny those left behind because one day it might just come back to bite those who imagine they are covered.

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- Yeah and what if you can't just walk in, can't afford a Dr, can't afford the medicine you require and simply have no access to proper medical treatment?

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Then either you don't live in the U.S. or your legal residence is a cave in the mountains.

That's an awful lot of ifs isn't it. I'm not saying our system is better or worse. Your point that people die due to lack of proper access to medicine because of their financial situation is nonsense.

Being from the states our health care is poor. Take a look at our seniors that have to choose between food or heat to afford prescriptions.The laws aren't enforced here and 95% of the Doctors won't even see you if you haven't any health ins.I watched your NHS from pretty much the start and the hurdles it got over and the gains made.Yes mistakes were made along the way, but where it's at today leaves no doubt where our health care system could be today.One last little thought to ponder, a non insured person taken to a emergency room at a hospital that can't offer the care that another hospital can, can wait 24 hours or more to get into a hospital that can take care of them.Some people would be better off going to jail to get the health care they need. Chris

Clam up.

Read gerry1's post in the bitch thread recently about old aged pensiners who are purposefully being caught robbing shops at gunpoint, just so they get free medical care.

Thats because they dont have the money to pay for their medication. Its sad when they prefer to get locked up for the rest of their lives than be free and at the mercy of the US medical system.

Originally posted by andy409:

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michael moore is physyco path liberal fat fuck

im glad his movies are leaking

hopefully itll cause his profits to go wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy down

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You my friend are a jackass:/

I nominate thegrunt for an oscar.

Originally posted by billybob:

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Clam up.

Read gerry1's post in the bitch thread recently about old aged pensiners who are purposefully being caught robbing shops at gunpoint, just so they get free medical care.

Thats because they dont have the money to pay for their medication. Its sad when they prefer to get locked up for the rest of their lives than be free and at the mercy of the US medical system.

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There are always options, and people are always going to slip through the cracks until someone, anyone, figures out a way to handle the crisis better. Yes, health care everywhere is less than ideal, but what's the solution? What works for everyone?

The bigger problem is that the people with the power to do something about it couldn't care less. They have their own agendas to follow. Health care, along with global warming, fuel costs and alternative fuels will probably be used forever to get politicians into office. Once they're in, their first order of business is to get rich. Their second is to pick which problems to publicize so they get re-elected and start working on getting richer, then repeat the whole process all over again. And who knows what else they're up to. When they're not working on getting rich and getting re-elected, they're certainly not working on problems like health care.

What would work is to forget electing these preselected, hand-picked greedy goons in suits and nominate people from other areas of society. Find people in non-profit organizations or other areas who have proven that they can care more about people than they do about money. Band together and get non-politicians in office. Refuse to vote for anyone who has been in office for more than two terms. That's the only way to fix this crap. Until that happens, it's not likely to change any time soon. All anybody can do is admit that it sucks the way it is.

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How many Americans end up dying because 'the system' simply refuses them treatment?

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None. Anyone who walks into a county hospital may not be denied treatment. It's the law.

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How about the woman who died in an L.A. emergency room last month, while awaiting treatment. She was vomiting blood and lying on the floor as janitors cleaned up the mess. Meanwhile two people tried to call her an ambulance to get her to another hospital and were rebuked by 911 operators! Thats quality!

http://www.jems.com/news/289151/

Originally posted by billybob:

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I nominate thegrunt for an oscar.

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Sweeeeeeeet:)

Originally posted by hughjars:

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The UK & western Europe all manage to have either entirely public medicine (as is the case with the UK's excellent NHS) or private/public partnership arrangements (with things like mandatory private medical insurance).

Our healthcare here in the UK & Europe is IMO far superior to that of any private system......and not one of us is 'communist' by any credible definition.

The US idea is IMO appalling.
Even people who have been good bill-payers can get left up sh*t-creek by an HMO that refuses to pay for their treatment - litterally leaving them to die (there was a massive scandel with their biggest HMO Kaiser over this not long ago).

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like the current tax system its biased on money thos who have it get better deals and care while everyone else has to pay 5 times.

the whole health care system starting with insurance/drug companies and ending with managed health care systems and hospitals need to be destroyed and rebuilt with a bent on coverage and care not profits and people falling threw the cracks..

You're not wrong zippy.

I just find it very sad that people can look at systems that are better for more people (none of them are perfect) but then pretend that the 'better' system isn't worth having because it isn't perfection itself.

Originally posted by hughjars:

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You're not wrong zippy.

I just find it very sad that people can look at systems that are better for more people (none of them are perfect) but then pretend that the 'better' system isn't worth having because it isn't perfection itself.

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the system is just to slanted to profit the goverment needs to make it where they can have their profits but enforce coverage and care via lower prices,hell forcing the drug companies to make and offer generics at half the price as the "real" thing would be a start,the insurance industry needs to be gutted tho I have seen what happens when 5 grand worth of monthly payments dissappaers when the insurance company cops out...

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[quote]How many Americans end up dying because 'the system' simply refuses them treatment?

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None. Anyone who walks into a county hospital may not be denied treatment. It's the law.[/quote]You need to watch Moore's movie.

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How many Americans end up dying because 'the system' simply refuses them treatment?
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None. Anyone who walks into a county hospital may not be denied treatment. It's the law.

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You need to watch Moore's movie.

Really? I don't think the friends and family of Edith Isabel Rodriguez or myself share your optimistic view of our healthcare system here in the U.S.



LOS ANGELES, June 13 (UPI) -- Dispatchers rejected two 911 calls to help a woman who lay dying on the floor of a Los Angeles hospital emergency room lobby.

Edith Isabel Rodriguez, 43, had been taken May 9 to Martin Luther King Jr.-Harbor Hospital for treatment of what the county coroner later determined was a perforated bowel. She waited 45 minutes, without treatment, before she died, The Los Angeles Times reported Wednesday.

During that time, both her boyfriend and another caller dialed 911 and pleaded for help because the King-Harbor staff was ignoring Rodriguez, audio recordings of the 911 calls show.

"My wife is dying and the nurses don't want to help her out," Jose Prado, Rodriguez's boyfriend, told a Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department dispatcher through an interpreter.

The dispatcher urged Prado to contact a doctor or nurse, the newspaper said.

A few minutes later, an unidentified woman -- possibly another patient -- reached another dispatcher. During a 2 1/2-minute call, the two debated whether it was a true emergency but no help was sent.

The coroner ruled the woman's condition might have been treatable if discovered sooner, the Times said.

Video from an ER camera showed staff members and patients standing by as a janitor cleaned the floor around Rodriguez, who was buried Tuesday in Tehachapi, Calif.

United Press International 2006
33

Having to use the emergency room a few times in life its rather a joke they can simply deem you unworthy of treatment and send you on your way I wound up passing out for my gallbladder almost busting after one ER (4 of 4) decided to do a blood test,it busted on the way to my room.

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You need to watch Moore's movie.

Really? I don't think the friends and family of Edith Isabel Rodriguez or myself share your optimistic view of our healthcare system here in the U.S.

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You're blaming this on a health care system rather than the particular doctor or nurse involved? There may be more to this than what's being reported, but I see absolutely nothing in the article that would lead me to believe that the woman was ignored for financial reasons. It sounds more a case for malpractice than anything else. Some doctor or nurse decided her condition wasn't as serious as it really was and decided she could wait while others were treated first. An L.A. emergency room isn't all grins and giggles. There's a lot of chaos, a lot of screaming, a lot of things that are rarely witnessed outside the place.

Mistakes are made, but please don't jump to conclusions, and make assumptions about something because you hope everyone else will make the same assumptions you did. Whether it's the case or not, there's nothing in that story that even hints that her welfare was affected by her financial status. I've heard similar situations happening to people with boatloads of money too. If you can find information supporting that conclusion, that'd be great. That article doesn't reach the desired conclusion I'm afraid.

The show Democracy Now had an hour-long interview with Michael Moore today on his movie and the show shows clips and a fantastic interview with Moore. You can watch the interview or listen to the show via here:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/18/1326230

This truly is a really good show. If you have about 45 minutes to spare, check it out.

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[quote]How many Americans end up dying because 'the system' simply refuses them treatment?

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That's straight up B.S. I live in bakersfield ca and just recently a hispanic lady made headlines when she died at a hospital because they refused to look at her. Why? She had no health insurance or $$$.
Those fucken doctors and nurses were literally walking around looking at her spit up blood. There were several 911 calls but since she was already at a hospital, everyone thought she would eventually get treatment. Nope. The woman died!!! Fuck the usa health care system.

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How many Americans end up dying because 'the system' simply refuses them treatment?

That's straight up B.S. I live in bakersfield ca and just recently a hispanic lady made headlines when she died at a hospital because they refused to look at her. Why? She had no health insurance or $$$.
Those fucken doctors and nurses were literally walking around looking at her spit up blood. There were several 911 calls but since she was already at a hospital, everyone thought she would eventually get treatment. Nope. The woman died!!! Fuck the usa health care system.

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Look, I'm no fan of our health care system, but you've got to do a better job of it than this.

Maybe California is different than where I'm from. Maybe in CA they stop and get your financial info before they treat you. Maybe they have special doctors and nurses trained to eyeball a person and know how much money they do or don't have before they'll work them in. Maybe there are a still few incompetent doctors and nurses in various hospitals making stupid decisions that cost people their lives. Or maybe, just maybe, there are a few hospitals with a few prejudiced staff who still treat people on the basis of their race. Which of those makes the most sense? You can't blame an entire nation's health care system for what's going on in one state unless you're clutching at straws. There are plenty of other problems to blame the health care system for, but so far this isn't one of them.

Where I'm from, around Chicago, they get you in, treat you, then get your billing info afterwards. They don't have time to jack with evaluating your social status. The people doing the treatment are separate from that part of the hospital anyway.

There are way too many possible reasons why a person would get passed over, many of which would have more to do with it than financial status. You're just generalizing an entire system for some examples of isolated incidents. In order for what you're accusing the system of to be true, it'd have to be a nationwide conspiracy, where doctors and nurses all over were encouraged to pass over the poor and let them die without treatment. It's not happening all over the country. It's only going on in specific places.

I just got done downloading this, when the DVD comes out I will buy it

I am sure Michael Moore has struck a main nerve with this movie. Like him or not he does expose a lot and makes the government squirm at the liberties he takes with regards to free speach issues.

Do you think for one minute that if it were Britney Spears, L. Lohan, or Paris Hilton lying on that Los Angelas County hostpial Lobby floor dying they would be treated differently than say Edith Rodriguez? I would like to think not but I would probably be wrong. Well, maybe if it were Ann Coulter lying on that hospial lobby floor in Los Angeles she might also have bled to death too, I suppose.

Originally posted by Mozilfox:

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I am sure Michael Moore has struck a main nerve with this movie. Like him or not he does expose a lot and makes the government squirm at the liberties he takes with regards to free speach issues.

Do you think for one minute that if it were Britney Spears, L. Lohan, or Paris Hilton lying on that Los Angelas County hostpial Lobby floor dying they would be treated differently than say Edith Rodriguez? I would like to think not but I would probably be wrong. Well, maybe if it were Ann Coulter lying on that hospial lobby floor in Los Angeles she might also have bled to death too, I suppose.

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Famous people are generaly treated better and be taken directly to a private room money in that instance dose talk.

For normal people being put in a cue is well normal if you show signs of being hurt like bleeding or vomiting blood you are normal put above the lesser injured thats "normally" mind you if you show no signs of if you are treated poorly and shuffled off to last.

Canada might have a wait time but its 25-50% cheaper,the US needs to re balance the greed based system to one that gets people covered and taken care of at a reasonable price.

Well, I just can't resist this one any longer:

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You're just generalizing an entire system for some examples of isolated incidents

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First of all, as I social worker, I see these "isolated incidents" frequently and I'm just in one office in Philly. Remember, we have fifty million people in the U.S. without healthcare so these "isolated incidents" are a matter of routine.

I don't only speak as a social worker though but as a victim of our wonderful healthcare system. I got into an accident and broke my neck; I had neurosurgery seven times and it took me three years to learn to walk and use my left side again. Our healthcare system in the U.S. is set up for people who don't particularly need it ... if you lose your job because you're ill, you're screwed because when you lose your job, you lose your health insurance. Anyone who works in the U.S. pays for a disability insurance, but go ahead and try to collect it! I have a terrible memory which still makes me steam: I was laying in a hospital bed with my head in a "halo" which was literally screwed into my skull and I was paralyzed on the left side. I got a letter from the social security administration which I couldn't even open because of my physical condition so my Mom had to open it for me. She cried as she read the letter for social security saying it was denied because there was nothing wrong with me ... they never even examined me and they're telling a paralyzed person with a broken damned neck that there is nothing wrong with him. I had to appeal the decision and despite my condition, it took two years just to get a hearing! The hearing didn't even last five mins and the judge ordered that I get my full disability benefits retroactive to the date of application ... the lawyers took damn near all of it. To add insult to injury, in the United States, if you finally win your fight to get disablility (which you paid taxes for) there is a two year waiting period from the date of approval before you can get the healthcare you need and which you paid taxes for. (I guess the government hopes you die in the interim so that they don't have to pay out). We swallowed our pride and turned to welfare for assistance but couldn't get any because I don't have dependent children. My parents sold their home of fourty years along with damned near everything they owned which barely put a dent in the medical bills. My family and I were financially destroyed and declared bankruptcy. Ronald Reagan also had tens of thousands of people thrown off the disability roles without so much as a physical; it took two or three years for the supreme court to say that it was illegal but many had died for lack of healthcare...and the healcare system hasn't changed one bit; in fact, it got worse. For those of you who defend our current system, pray that you never have to walk in my shoes or those of my family. Pray that you never become one of those "isolated incidents"!

gerry1
tell me about it we were doing fine until the "system" dropped my dad after a year of 900 every 2 or 3 months for meds we went almost a year without power, lost the house got moved into public house and a few months after my mom passed from canser my dad follwoed her,if the system did not drop him and he was on all his meds he would have lasted 5+ more years....*sigh*

they also keep changing their minds on what meds of mine they will "cover" its rather disgusting...

Sounds to me like alot of people are in denial, whereas some people have got their head outof their ass and confronted the problem. I respect the latter.

I just don't get why some Americans here want to pretend they have a system of universal and free at the point of use healthcare.

Quite obviously (to anyone who's ever read the slightest thing about it) they don't.

It's nothing like the NHS nor even the continental European public/private partnership arrangements.

Of course our way isn't perfect but it does seem to be much much better for way more of our people.

Kudos to MM for putting the issue under the spotlight - it seems (once again) some folks can't abide a mirror being held up and would rather avoid looking at this seriously by pretending it's all an exaggerated exercise in socialist/communist propaganda to attack America's capitalist foundations......not forgetting continual attacks on MM himself .
(which I gather is the pretty regular course of action in large sections of the US media these days)

Frankly I think it's a disgrace the way the vested interests in the USA have always ganged up to make sure any change was killed off and any proposed scheme to improve matters dragged out until administration changes or other issues took the attention away.

But it's your country and you are welcome to it.
I'm happy I don't have to live there and suffer those consequences.

.....but please don't try and tell us fairy tales about how it really is, hmmmmm?

@billyboy...it really is an aweful situation we have here despite what some member may say; they've obviously never been the victim of that which they so freely defend

@Zippy ... I'm sorry to hear of the troubles you've had but neither am I surprised. Frankly, its something I worry about all the time because although I was lucky to be able to work after my accident, I know that I won't last until retirement. I've got some Progressive spinal problems which the doctors warn will totally disable me in the next few years and, slowly but surely, my physical condition is deteriorating. I still have no idea how I'm going to live without the meds and healthcare which I'll have to do without.

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Of course our way isn't perfect but it does seem to be much much better for way more of our people.

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It's only better for those who aren't in need of it.

Originally posted by gerry1:

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[quote=hughjars]Of course our way isn't perfect but it does seem to be much much better for way more of our people.

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It's only better for those who aren't in need of it.[/quote]
- I think you have crossed wires here gerry1.

When I was referring to "our system" that is the NHS in the UK to me (you know, the UK with it's socialist/communist healthcare system :D ).

Gerry mate.... i feel for you. I hate the US government for what they have done to you and your family, and i have the utmost respect for what you have done, i think you represent everyone that has got fucked by the powers that be, and still pulled through it and turned out to be on of the people i feel most fortunate to have ever met.

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@billyboy...it really is an aweful situation we have here despite what some member may say; they've obviously never been the victim of that which they so freely defend

@Zippy ... I'm sorry to hear of the troubles you've had but neither am I surprised. Frankly, its something I worry about all the time because although I was lucky to be able to work after my accident, I know that I won't last until retirement. I've got some Progressive spinal problems which the doctors warn will totally disable me in the next few years and, slowly but surely, my physical condition is deteriorating. I still have no idea how I'm going to live without the meds and healthcare which I'll have to do without.

[quote]Of course our way isn't perfect but it does seem to be much much better for way more of our people.

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It's only better for those who aren't in need of it.[/quote]
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its rather funny I am told by friend tog et a job yet to get a job you need to put moeny into rent+insurance+health only thos that pay 25+ a hour will cover you enough to do that so the petty stable cash I get from disaiblty is more safer than trying to live off minmiun wage jobs.

Zippy mate you do whatever you have to do.

Good luck to you. I'm sorry to hear of your troubles, you too gerry1.

@Billyboy ... thank you for that, my young friend!

@Zippy ... I remember all too well what living on disability was like. I don't envy you and it scares me to think about it because there is no doubt that, in my regard, history is going to repeat itself.

We live in a disposable society which, unfortunately, has come to mean our elderly and our disabled as well.

Not at all gerry.

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Well, I just can't resist this one any longer:

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You're just generalizing an entire system for some examples of isolated incidents

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First of all, as I social worker, I see these "isolated incidents" frequently and I'm just in one office in Philly. Remember, we have fifty million people in the U.S. without healthcare so these "isolated incidents" are a matter of routine.

I don't only speak as a social worker though but as a victim of our wonderful healthcare system. I got into an accident and broke my neck; I had neurosurgery seven times and it took me three years to learn to walk and use my left side again. Our healthcare system in the U.S. is set up for people who don't particularly need it ... if you lose your job because you're ill, you're screwed because when you lose your job, you lose your health insurance. Anyone who works in the U.S. pays for a disability insurance, but go ahead and try to collect it! I have a terrible memory which still makes me steam: I was laying in a hospital bed with my head in a "halo" which was literally screwed into my skull and I was paralyzed on the left side. I got a letter from the social security administration which I couldn't even open because of my physical condition so my Mom had to open it for me. She cried as she read the letter for social security saying it was denied because there was nothing wrong with me ... they never even examined me and they're telling a paralyzed person with a broken damned neck that there is nothing wrong with him. I had to appeal the decision and despite my condition, it took two years just to get a hearing! The hearing didn't even last five mins and the judge ordered that I get my full disability benefits retroactive to the date of application ... the lawyers took damn near all of it. To add insult to injury, in the United States, if you finally win your fight to get disablility (which you paid taxes for) there is a two year waiting period from the date of approval before you can get the healthcare you need and which you paid taxes for. (I guess the government hopes you die in the interim so that they don't have to pay out). We swallowed our pride and turned to welfare for assistance but couldn't get any because I don't have dependent children. My parents sold their home of fourty years along with damned near everything they owned which barely put a dent in the medical bills. My family and I were financially destroyed and declared bankruptcy. Ronald Reagan also had tens of thousands of people thrown off the disability roles without so much as a physical; it took two or three years for the supreme court to say that it was illegal but many had died for lack of healthcare...and the healcare system hasn't changed one bit; in fact, it got worse. For those of you who defend our current system, pray that you never have to walk in my shoes or those of my family. Pray that you never become one of those "isolated incidents"!

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While I feel for you, you're changing what we've been talking about. This started out as a discussion about the poor not getting treatment in hospitals and dying from their injuries because they were not treated quickly enough. What you've posted above, while tragic, is not quite related to the point I've made. If you had the accident, went to the E.R. and died there lying on the floor while nobody looked at you, then your point would be one I'd have to admit is a good rebuttal. The fact that you're alive strengthens my point, and makes me happy for you.

I'm not really interested in discussing health care beyond the E.R. I've got a ton of examples that go right along with yours. We all know that it sucks. That's not the point I'm making.

@clamup:

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I'm not really interested in discussing health care beyond the E.R...That's not the point I'm making.

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But it is the point of the thread's original author about the state of U.S and British healthcare ... see page 1.

@clamup:

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I'm not really interested in discussing health care beyond the E.R...That's not the point I'm making.

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But it is the point of the thread's original author about the state of U.S and British healthcare ... see page 1.

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Actually the thread is, "Moore's Sicko gets early Internet leak" from which the thread varied to state that people die from lack of treatment. If you're not dead from lack of treatment and using yourself as an example, as is the case, you're changing the subject and trying to suck me in to say that I disagree with you. I do agree with the points you made. However, if you want to keep preaching to the choir, be my guest.


Edit- Added:

People here are claiming that if someone steps into an E.R. needing medical treatment, and have no money to pay for it, they'll be denied treatment. There are some examples given where people have not received treatment in an emergency room. They're fine examples of people being ignored, but they don't really demonstrate why they were ignored. They just highlight the fact that they were ignored.

An old friend of mine has managed to rack up close to a hundred thousand dollars in unpaid medical bills from E.R. trips, yet she still gets in, gets treated and gets out, adding to her sum total. I know for sure that the law says anyone walking into a county hospital must be treated. Whether they are or not is indicative of the people in that particular hospital, not American law.

That's all I'm saying. If you want to argue that point with me, I'll be more than happy to. But don't change the subject and then make it look like I'm arguing something I'm not.

@clamup ... regarding Emergencies Rooms, I agree with you. Many people go to emergency rooms because, without heath insurance, you can't get into a doctor's office so ERs are overwhelmed with "non emergencies"

Regarding my other comments, they were, in part, an observation written in response to hughjars observation:

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Our healthcare here in the UK & Europe is IMO far superior to that of any private system......and not one of us is 'communist' by any credible definition.

The US idea is IMO appalling. Even people who have been good bill-payers can get left up sh*t-creek by an HMO that refuses to pay for their treatment - litterally leaving them to die (there was a massive scandel with their biggest HMO Kaiser over this not

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My comment regarding isloated incidents is simply that they're not so isolated; emergency room or not, these things happen with a sad regularity. You are taking offense where none was intended...in light of that, I will refrain from further comment before starting a war in a thread which doesn't belong to either of us.

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My comment regarding isloated incidents is simply that they're not so isolated; emergency room or not, these things happen with a sad regularity. You are taking offense where none was intended...in light of that, I will refrain from further comment before starting a war in a thread which doesn't belong to either of us.

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Fair enough, although I'm not taking offense but instead just not wanting to be misunderstood.

Hey clamup, if gerry was wrong about the original point of the thread, then you were changing the subject also wise guy.

Drop the attitude with Gerry.

Originally posted by billybob:

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Hey clamup, if gerry was wrong about the original point of the thread, then you were changing the subject also wise guy.

Drop the attitude with Gerry.

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Whatever attitude I may have had was dropped long ago, genius. The original point was changed before I got involved, somewhere around the tenth post. I merely followed up with my opinion about the matter as it stood.

If you want to accuse someone of changing the subject, then you'd be best served choosing a more previous poster to pick on. Besides, I never said anything about Gerry changing the subject. That's your twist on my words. He misunderstood what I was saying and applied it to an argument I wasn't trying to make. He and I straightened that out.

Now, if there's still a problem then I've no idea what it is, but whatever it is it's now between you and me.

Originally posted by clamup:

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Actually the thread is, "Moore's Sicko gets early Internet leak" from which the thread varied to state that people die from lack of treatment. If you're not dead from lack of treatment and using yourself as an example, as is the case, you're changing the subject and trying to suck me in to say that I disagree with you.

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You were the one accusing. I'm over it all, i didnt even care about you or your points before you started pissing me off with your attitude towards gerry.

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genius

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Lmao, temper temper now. Noone likes malice. Lets just see how long you last around here, before you start attacking peoples IQ yeh?.

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Originally posted by clamup:

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Actually the thread is, "Moore's Sicko gets early Internet leak" from which the thread varied to state that people die from lack of treatment. If you're not dead from lack of treatment and using yourself as an example, as is the case, you're changing the subject and trying to suck me in to say that I disagree with you.

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You were the one accusing. I'm over it all, i didnt even care about you or your points before you started pissing me off with your attitude towards gerry.

Lmao, temper temper now. Noone likes malice. Lets just see how long you last around here, before you start attacking peoples IQ yeh?.

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Someone mentioned that people die from lack of treatment in hospitals. In my experience, which really is all I have, that's not the case. And that's all I was talking about.

Gerry replies to my post and changes the isolated incidents from occurrences in hospitals, to his own post-hospital care, implying that I think health care once beyond the hospital is in a wonderful state, which I don't. I said, "Hey, wait a second. I didn't say that. That's not what I'm saying at all." He misconstrued what I was saying, whether intentional or not. Hence, the "sucking me in" response. Which part of this are you claiming is untrue?

If you're letting a message board get you pissed off, then, wow, you really need to loosen your shirt and take a break. You're the only one with an attitude.

You're the third or fourth poster to misread what I've said, yet I'm nowhere close to pissed off. Never have been. I'm just trying to get people to read what I've said and not put their own twist on it. You get upset over something you imagined happened which doesn't involve you. Since I'm not allowed to react the way you do, I never will. If you want to keep playing site bully, that's perfectly fine. I can hold my own.

Originally posted by billybob:

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wise guy

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Originally posted by clamUp:

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genius

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Pot

Kettle

Ok i dont even care enough to read ur little essay.

However,

Originally posted by ME:

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Lmao, temper temper now. Noone likes malice. Lets just see how long you last around here, before you start attacking peoples IQ yeh?.

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So thats getting pissed off by a message board is it? Haha, im far from it dude.

ooo and u call me a site bully? Im touched.

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So thats getting pissed off by a message board is it?

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Clearly.

Originally posted by billybob:

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i didnt even care about you or your points before you started pissing me off with your attitude towards gerry

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Far be it from me to read what you said and respond accordingly.

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Haha, im far from it dude.

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You certainly had me fooled.

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ooo and u call me a site bully? Im touched.

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You're just not going to play nice, are you? I haven't seen this kind of blind hatred since junior high school.

Since your attention span virtually ensures that you're not going to bother reading any of this anyway, I guess it'll fall on deaf ears to point out that I agreed with your friend, Gerry.

I guess you feel Gerry needs for you to defend his honor or something and can't make his own points by himself. I really have absolutely nothing against Gerry and I really don't see where you fit in with all this.

I have absolutely no idea what your beef with me is. Whatever it is, you don't seem to want to let it go. How about starting all over again and explain exactly what it is you're upset about now?

Go away! Jesus.

Originally posted by billybob:

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Go away! Jesus.

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That's what you should've done about six posts ago.

You just dont shut up do you?

childern play nice >>

Originally posted by billybob:

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You just dont shut up do you?

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I'll try this again. What are you so pissed about that keeps you from getting off my back? I want you to show me exactly why you're hounding me like I just ran over your dog.

Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:

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childern play nice >>

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Hi ZIppy.

I've shown billybob a lot more patience than than he's shown me, but I'll play as nice as he'll let me.

I would love to see this documentry that Michael Moore has created.

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so much so that Moore found it a necessity to stash a copy of the movie in Canada.

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The fact that he has moved copies to Canada explain a lot :)

http://files.filefront.com//;7830973;;/

(.0.)

You dont get the picture do you? I wasnt gonna go this far, but if u really wanna know i just plain dont like your attitude. Seem very arogant too.

Unsubscribed.

How did Moore get himself and others to Cuba in the first place? Does he have dual citizenship?

Sad to say but this film, like his previous efforts, will make a lot of noise at first but likely will just fizzle out in the end.

His Bowling for Columbine hardly made a dent in the NRA's and the gun lobby's powerful political machine.

His Fahrenheit 911 did not make John Kerry president.

This film will suffer the same fate. Big money HMO's and big money pharmaceuticals have too much influence. Clinton had 2 terms to do something but he failed miserably. It doesn't matter if Hillary gets a second chance in '08 or whoever gets elected next. Nothing will be done.

I'll bet MM takes on global warming next.

Oops, my mistake - Gore beat him to it!

Originally posted by billybob:

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You dont get the picture do you? I wasnt gonna go this far, but if u really wanna know i just plain dont like your attitude. Seem very arogant too.

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I'm trying to do two things.

1. Clarify points that were misunderstood by others, and

2. Get you off my back.

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Unsubscribed.

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I'm not sure about the first one, but I think the second one just took care of itself. As far as you perceiving me to be arrogant, you took that moniker with the line:

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Lets just see how long you last around here, before you start attacking peoples IQ yeh?

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That's what really kept me around. You needed to see that that's not what I'm about.

You've jumped into a discussion which didn't concern you. You've shown me verbal hostility, badgered me with no real point, and then wondered why you don't like my attitude.

This was a fine welcome to the board. Fine welcome. Thanks.

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fine welcome

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Repitition?

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2. Get you off my back.

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^^^

Then just shut the hell up?



p.s i did unsubscribe, but i looked at this thread anyway. Just be quiet? please?

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Then just shut the hell up?

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Fine. Although it was in response to your remark toward me (wise guy), I apologize for referring to you in a derogatory manner (genius) earlier.

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i just plain dont like your attitude. Seem very arogant too.

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I'm also sorry that you feel this way. I should have ignored your initial hostility with me and again I apologize.

no problem, much better.

BACK ON TOPIC PLEASE and please stop bickering.

Sorry sir

There is no such language as American-English so watch closely as I correctly spell a..p..o..l..o..g..i..S..e.

Come on clamUp, you seem the intellectual type. Lets have it!

Thanks tommy :)

Originally posted by tommyg109:

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Come on clamUp, you seem the intellectual type. Lets have it!

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Baiting me, eh?

All right.

You forgot the apostrophe in the contraction, Let's. If you want, go ahead and wipe out the established rules of grammar for an entire nation. See if I care. ;^)

I agree with "eatsushi". Sad but Michael Moore has been way too over-demonized by right-wing radio, Bill O'Reilly, and Fox News in general. Still this is a landmark film. Better than Bowling For Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11, but right behind Roger and Me. One thing is for sure about Moore, he makes the best documentaries. Just phenomenal.

Originally posted by edsrouter:

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I agree with "eatsushi". Sad but Michael Moore has been way too over-demonized by right-wing radio, Bill O'Reilly, and Fox News in general. Still this is a landmark film. Better than Bowling For Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11, but right behind Roger and Me. One thing is for sure about Moore, he makes the best documentaries. Just phenomenal.

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I dunno I feel he dose not do "documentaries" but then again slanted propaganda falls under documentaries so I guess it dose in a sense....hes a bit one sided and loves spinning things in the direction he sees fit...to me real documentaries are neutral....