So i guess Sony wasn't using false PR spin on there sales like some of our members claim they were doing, i guess we wont see any apologies from there false claims they made.....

Still waiting for the day when I can just buy a movie and put it into the one tray on one player...

3.7 million PS3s verses under 400,000 HD DVD players and 60:40 (or 65:35 depending on who you read) is the type of 'lead' they manage to produce.

Not exactly inspiring stuff and so tiny compared to total disc sales that the big claims the Blu-ray side love to make are just laughable.

just one claim after another.

Hughjars.... that was a stupid comment.

FIRST HD-DVD lovers want to omit the total PS3 hardware sales as Bluray players, because they are dedicated.

NEXT Hughjars and Im sure a large portion of the HD-DVD backers want to say "That's sad millions of players and only 2.1:1 ratio on disc sales"

Ok you're wrong on BOTH of your assumptions.

YES, PS3 owners will buy some bluray discs and therefore need to be counted as Bluray owners, it may be diminished but many still buy a movie here and there.

NO, it's not sad that someone that owns a video game console that happens to play these movies doesn't buy them. Many people don't buy the machine for movies.

REALISTICALLY the PS3 is tough on exactly how to approach it in metrics. You can't omit PS3 owners cause they buy discs. You can't really fully count them as bluray owners because many of them didn't have that intent when they buy the machine.

Logically it makes more sense the way I have explained it. That being said Sony should never brag about how many players it has sold based on PS3 sales, because that would be faulty. They should, however, brag about the software they sell, because no matter what the hardware numbers they are still selling Bluray more than 2:1 over HD-DVD.

- edited -

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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Hughjars.... that was a stupid comment.

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- Only to someone desperate to try and spin away that that is the truth.

BTW nice respectful opening, not.

I'm not really sure what you're at here, you open with a personal attack and then end up agreeing that "Sony should never brag about how many players it has sold based on PS3 sales, because that would be faulty".
Which is what I said (in passing) put slightly differently.

But that's not the issue here.
See the sales numbers at the top of the article.

The point of this topic is the sales numbers of retail movie discs sold, not whether one agrees - or not - that a PS3 should be counted in with the 'stand-alone' players (which, as it is primarily a games console and not a stand-alone player, it obviously should not).

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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FIRST HD-DVD lovers want to omit the total PS3 hardware sales as Bluray players, because they are dedicated.

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- Er, I didn't.
You'll find that that 3.7 million figure includes all the PS3s sold......but go ahead, if you really want we can call if 6 million (which is the amount Sony say they've 'shipped'), it only proves my point even better.

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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NEXT Hughjars and Im sure a large portion of the HD-DVD backers want to say "That's sad millions of players and only 2.1:1 ratio on disc sales"

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- Well, what do you call it when Blu-ray 'players' supposedly outnumber HD DVD player so much and yet can only maintain a relatively small (shrinking according to Nielson & DVD Empire) 'lead'?

So much for the BD side already having 'won', huh?

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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Ok you're wrong on BOTH of your assumptions.

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Er, what assumptions, exactly?

It's true (you have the figures right at the top in the article Afterdawn has posted up).

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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YES, PS3 owners will buy some bluray discs and therefore need to be counted as Bluray owners, it may be diminished but many still buy a movie here and there.

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- Er, who said anything different?

The fact still stands that PS3 simply isn't generating the numbers of sales.

Like I said several million of them out there verses under 400,000 HD DVD players (a number which includes the XBox 360 HD DVD add-ons btw) and they are only managing to lead HD DVD by 60:40 or 65:35 (depending on who you read).....you can't spin that away, it's the truth.

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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NO, it's not sad that someone that owns a video game console that happens to play these movies doesn't buy them. Many people don't buy the machine for movies.

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- I'd suggest you try reading what I actually said, I never said it was.

What I have said is that whilst making PS3=Blu-ray was a (hardly surprising) initial boost for the format it has been only a tactical success; but it is also a strategic disaster for the format.

Relying on a game console to 'win' the wider (and far far bigger) a/v market is a deeply flawed long-term strategy......and the less than impressive BD v HD DVD retail movie disc sales numbers show that only too clearly.

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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REALISTICALLY the PS3 is tough on exactly how to approach it in metrics. You can't omit PS3 owners cause they buy discs. You can't really fully count them as bluray owners because many of them didn't have that intent when they buy the machine.

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- Er, that's partly what I've been saying, actually.

It is perfectly legitimate for a stand-alone manufacturer to compare & contrast their sales performance with other stand-alone sellers.
But even so.....what of it?

That really is a side issue and missing the point about the numbers of retail movie discs each side have sold that this thread relates to and what I was really talking about.

I did not exclude PS3 numbers and nor did I exclude XBox 360 HD DVD add-on numbers.
But they are hardly central to the point of this thread (or my own comments) as you seem to think.

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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That being said Sony should never brag about how many players it has sold based on PS3 sales, because that would be faulty. They should, however, brag about the software they sell, because no matter what the hardware numbers they are still selling Bluray more than 2:1 over HD-DVD.

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- Well given that no-one is releasing 100% verifiable & accurate sales numbers
(for instance do the Sony numbers include a game sale? It's on a Blu-ray disc afterall......can anyone say for certain?
We already know Nielson had to be withdrawn, adjusted for the wrong counting of PS3 freebie discs and rereleased at one stage)
it's particularly difficult to say too much for certain, just, perhaps, watch for trends.

.....and the trends show a less than stellar PS3/BD/Blu-ray performance - so much so that claims of already having 'won' and such like are laughable; just like I said.

(You'll also find that Nielson and almost every other big sales tracker leaves out on-line sales or collects from a small sample etc etc.)

You people all make me laugh, maybe people should quit arguing and attacking formats and manufacturers back and forth. You completely turn the blog away from the article and fail to see it for what it is. Simply put blu-ray is beating hd dvd in sales of discs nearly 2-1. Leave it at that, no reason to read the article and then try to bash something. The article had no malice and no bias. So quite your belly aching if your and hd dvd fanboy and don't go gloating if your a blu-ray fanboy because its fills this space with useless crap no one wants to read and takes away from what the article is simply trying to report.

Well put....

I guess that was my point Mark,

Player unit sales are irrelevant. Sure they bring in a small amount of profit, but they are a one shot deal and only provide money to the original manufacturer and format creator. The fight here is for movie studios business and Bluray is thus far jumping out in the lead. My entire post was to point out that no matter how you view hardware, you're pretty much going to be wrong. Software sales will push one competitor out eventually. Sorry Hugh, no matter how you view the attachment rate Bluray has more movies sold.

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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Sorry Hugh, no matter how you view the attachment rate Bluray has more movies sold.

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- .....which is something I have not denied.

I simply made a short comment giving the context surrounding those numbers.

(and those who wave the flag for Blu-ray are stuck with the fact that the disc sales 'lead' of 60:40 or even 65:35 is abysmal when they are supposed to have almost 10 times the numbers of players out there.

It's not the HD DVD side that is continually trying to pretend that this is all over.)

Quote:

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Of course, in the short run these numbers mean almost nothing, as both formats combined account for only 2.5% of overall disc sales this year, with standard definition DVDs still clearly leading the way.

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So, it's still pitiful sales for both formats then.
IMO Sony's claims of winning the format war is still BS until disk sales pass the 10% mark for overall sales.This war is just getting started.

They aren't really right to say it's over. It hasn't "just started" either. At this point HD-DVD would need a broad marketing campaign or some new niche to fill in order to come back. Given current market conditions, at the rate sales are headed Bluray does look to be the winner. If you look at any statistical forecasting model my bet is they would all say Bluray wins. Now something out of the ordinary or surprising could happen, but you can't extrapolate based on radical events.

Sony is spinning it, but the numbers agree with them.

@ Ludikhris

So far Sony is winning but I don't think they have won yet.
I'm sitting on this fence until one format triumphs and then I shall invest in a player.Until then I have your say and Sony's to say buy Blu-Ray we've won....err no thanks I'll stick with DVD until I hear a global cry of a winner!
Considering the fact that HD-DVD players are cheaper to produce,the long term pricing structure favours HD-DVD over Blu-Ray.If the mass market go cheap like they did with VHS over Betamax then HD-DVD is a safer bet.Also consider the fact that you would lose less money if HD-DVD loses the format war if you did buy a player as Blu-Ray hardware is way overpriced.

The idea that Blu-ray is on a wonderful trajectory because of it's almost total reliance on PS3 is absurd.
They can't launch PS3 again and they aren't getting another 3.7 million PS3 sales any time soon.

The truth is that it is indeed way to early to make any such claims.

HD DVD has in fact been closing back up on Blu-rays sales numbers (as DVD Empire - and Nielson after the inevitable 2 week lag - show).

With 400,000 HD DVD players to almost 4 million Blu-ray players HD DVD still takes around 40% of the sales.
Anyone who seriously imagines that doesn't matter or isn't being noticed is kidding themselves.

Anyone who thinks they're great numbers for Blu-ray and that they indicate a Blu-ray future really is refusing to look reality square on.

In contrast to Blu-ray and it's almost entire reliance on a game console HD DVD continues to sell a range of models in ever greater numbers to the (much much) bigger a/v market.
It did not have the initial boost Blu-ray got with the PS3, of course, but it's strategy has always been so much more long-term.

When HD DVD gets to a user base in excess of 1 million owners (early next year according to the estimates) then those much higher attachment rates are going to be making a big difference.......and the movie studios will not be blind to it either.

This really has only just got started.....and despite the PR & spin from the Blu-ray fanclub (who are desperate to convince as many as they can that this is all over now) it isn't even going to be done by X-mas either, nor is it likely to be done by 2008.
Even the management of Matsushita (Blu-ray's 2nd biggest backers after Sony) reckon on both Blu-ray & HD DVD only having 30% of the retail movie disc market by 2010.

Originally posted by hughjars:

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With 400,000 HD DVD players to almost 4 million Blu-ray players HD DVD still takes around 40% of the sales.

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Ok.. then we have

Quote:

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The report said that total sales of Blu-ray discs for the period of January 1st to July 31st was 1.6 million units, more than double that of HD DVD which had 795,000 discs sold over the same period.

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Now when you say 40% of total sales you really mean like 30% right? When you look at the ratio of about 2:1 that usually leads to about a third of the total.

Good point on not extrapolating a huge surge in PS3 bluray players. However, my opinion still stands. PS3s will still sell, and Bluray players will increase as well. No doubt HD-DVD players will also increase. The problem with all this is Bluray players are closing the gap on price difference. What will happen when you have two technologies that are very similar at the same price?

Bluray would probably have lost out without the PS3. Im near positive. However it was leveraged well enough to give them an early lead that I'm guessing will last enough.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3161833

According to a recent survey, only 40% of PS3 owners questioned were even aware that the machine had a Blu-Ray drive in it. Realistically you CAN'T count all PS3 sales as BR player sales since many people who buy them won't use that feature. You can't just ignore it either.

At least software sales numbers give an indication of what format people are actually using - except of course for people like me who are NOT buying much (if any) software until the 'war' is settled. I'll just continue to rent and let someone else get stuck with a stack of unplayable coasters if one of the formats fails.

Originally posted by Unfocused:

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Still waiting for the day when I can just buy a movie and put it into the one tray on one player...

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Thats exactly what i have been advocating for from day one.

A stat I seen from the HD-DVD group(dated a while ago) was saying that 600,000 PS3 have been sold in the USA.

While only 2,000 HD-DVD players had been sold, then they said maybe we should include all the laptops in the players as well which is only 10,000 laptops have been sold at the time with HD-DVD drives in them, so 12,000 Hd-DVD players/drives.

So I say yeah bundle up the numbers Blu-ray is still well over the HD-DVD player/drive market by a much larger number and the blu-ray number doesn't include blu-ray only players as per the HD-DVD camp like to go on about.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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Sorry Hugh, no matter how you view the attachment rate Bluray has more movies sold.

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- .....which is something I have not denied.

I simply made a short comment giving the context surrounding those numbers.

(and those who wave the flag for Blu-ray are stuck with the fact that the disc sales 'lead' of 60:40 or even 65:35 is abysmal when they are supposed to have almost 10 times the numbers of players out there.

It's not the HD DVD side that is continually trying to pretend that this is all over.)

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You seem to forget the PS3 can also play DVDs as well so people with PS3's don't have to only buy Blu-ray disks to play on the PS3.