Originally posted by juankerr:

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Ryu77: Domo arigato.

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Hai! Do itashe mashite!... :-)

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Now while I have no stake in Toshiba or Sony, their both big companies that exist to make money... bottom line... and don't give me the repeated "oh my God they used root-kit's" repeated crap ad nauseum... if we all hung every product a company ever made on 1 stupid move... we wouldn't buy from anyone.

Now to your comment "jrosado5". That's a pretty condescending attitude and sounds more like sour grapes than an honest question. Who honestly doles out their hard earned cash en masse due to stubbornness or pride... or you just think we're all stupid and can't see what you think is the obvious answer. I'm a democrat that may not understand why republicans voted for George Bush, but I don't just believe there all idiots or voted out of spite.

People spent their money, thereby voted on their choice of systems based on the information they had at their finger tips. I was buying a tv last October and an HD source and while I was walking through electronics stores, I had many a sales man pushing HD-DVD on my and anyone who happened to be with me, but I wasn't sold... know why? HD-DVD simply didn't have what I wanted. they had 30% of available films exclusive and another 20% shared from Warner Brothers... total 50% of what was on the market... Blu-ray had 50% exclusivity and 20% shared from Warner, so 70% of all films available I could get on Blu-ray. Not to mention they had Disney in their stable... which is huge not only for me but my kids.

I didn't care about DRM... I didn't care about interactive online content. I didn't know about the extent of issues some people had with what version of blu-ray they had, but what I did know about it, I wasn't concerned because if I was going blu-ray, I was going to get the one that was future proof... the PS3. I did care that at the time the only true 1080p films seemed to be blu-ray. I did care that there was more space blu-ray compared layer to layer.

The same thing happened when I went to get my TV... I was sure I was going to get a Plasma, either Samsung or Panasonic... but in my search, reading up on product and going to look at them myself, I bought a 52" Sony Bravia LCD along with my PS3...

Did I invest all my hard earned cash because I'm a Sony fanboy or "pride" made me want to by a lesser product... No... how stupid does that sound. I bought what I felt was going to give me the most of what I wanted... not what Sony wanted, not what Toshiba wanted... What I wanted. An awesome system, that looks great, wows everyone that comes into my house and plays all the stuff I want. I would never suggest that someone who bought an HD-DVD player with Shrek 3 at a great price did it just out of pride to support a dying product, they did it because it seemed like a good deal on something they wanted... how is that any different than anyone's purchase.

I know it may seem shocking but most consumers do actually have a brain in their head, and somehow, manage to make decisions for themselves everyday. While I may not have made the same purchase choices as some of my friends (buddy spent the same amount of cash as me on a 60" sony rear projection hdtv) I get that they made the decision based on what they wanted to get (in his case size was more important than image sharpness)not what I thought "the informed masses" were doing.

If all the studios abandoned Blu-ray en masse because their executives were caught in the act of interspecies erotica and all the stuff I wanted was HD-DVD, I'd have a player in my house pretty quick.

But they don't... and they didn't... so I didn't... and neither did the majority of HD adopters.. end of story.

That's just my penny times 2.

Jim

Well if the latest reports are true then it was fun while it lasted.

Pity about the poor old consumer though, the least consumer-friendly format may have 'won' - but only in relation to the 'battle' between HD DVD & BD - and only then because of the back-room dealing.

I'm not so bothered, I honestly doubt BD will ever escape the niche.

Personally I shall be looking forward to buying up a stack of HD DVDs at tiny prices.

I will not be buying Blu-ray.

I don't want a game console for my movie player and once the PS3 is discarded from the equation then BD has nothing appealing to me.

I am not paying £200/$400+ for a stand-alone player and in any event I will wait a very long time to see how they go about using BD+ etc etc.

But I have no need for Blu-ray anyways.
I have my HD DVDs,
I have my HD TV service & DVR (these will be the real winners this time out),
I have my 600+ upscaled SD DVD movies (and SD DVD isn't going away anywhere) and
a ton of downloads (over 400 Blu-ray films are available on the net right now).

There's a saying, be careful what you wish for.

I think it applies perfectly to the PS3/Blu-ray fanclub & this matter.

^^Boo Hoo^^ I'm crying cause you wont buy into Blu.

Originally posted by glasssd:

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^^Boo Hoo^^ I'm crying cause you wont buy into Blu.

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I know for fact youve been warned before, take another break from AD.

Another Reuters report this time quoting a source from inside Toshiba:

http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSL1643184420080216

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A source at Toshiba confirmed an earlier report by public broadcaster NHK that it was getting ready to pull the plug.

"We have entered the final stage of planning to make our exit from the next generation DVD business," said the source, who asked not to be identified. He added that an official announcement could come as early as next week.

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It looks like we'll be seeing an announcement from Toshiba ahead of any word from Paramount or Universal.

Originally posted by error5:

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Another Reuters report this time quoting a source from inside Toshiba:

http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSL1643184420080216

Quote:

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A source at Toshiba confirmed an earlier report by public broadcaster NHK that it was getting ready to pull the plug.

"We have entered the final stage of planning to make our exit from the next generation DVD business," said the source, who asked not to be identified. He added that an official announcement could come as early as next week.

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It looks like we'll be seeing an announcement from Toshiba ahead of any word from Paramount or Universal.

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I wonder when they will fire up BR payer production, if they drp HD DVD they could simi smoothly transcend over to BR production..

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Originally posted by ZippyDSM:

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I wonder when they will fire up BR payer production, if they drp HD DVD they could simi smoothly transcend over to BR production..

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I tend to agree with juankerr's earlier post. Toshiba's announcement could come with details of a BluRay capable player, most likely NOT a dual format IMO. If Toshiba can make a BD model that's as reliable and as well-built as my XA2 then I'll be taking a long hard look at it (especially if it comes with a Reon chip).

As a person I am not attacking you at all Hughjars but two things you have said I am going to doubt. Healthy debate right?

1) I honestly doubt BR will be anything more than a niche market.

Come on, with the track record you have on being right about the HD media market you will still say things like this? A person could have gotten rich betting money for BR each time you staunchly defended HD. I actually went and read back a bunch of HD posts last night and you were in a lot of them. I'm not sure I saw one post that actually worked out to your prediction. All the market analysts show that HD is the next massive format to hit homes. Sure it won't be like DVD, but it will in time replace DVD as the #1 format. Digital distribution will go up to, but they don't really have a viable "iTunes" like option at this point that people are ready to massively buy into. I do beleve in digital distribution, but it's inability to service quality to the likes of BR and HDDVD will keep it held back.

2) I will not be buying BR.

You are obviously a fan of media, HD media even. That being said I would never believe a true fan of technology would hold back in buying a product only because "their chosen format didn't win the format war". If you look inwards nice and deep you'll see that it is really pride stopping you from buying one. Someday when all your friends have BR players and everyone as these really cool setups, you'll look at your HDDVD upconverter and say, "Man, I need to get Transformers 32 in HD". You'll eventually buy one, I would put money on it.

When PS3 came out and was heavily battered by Wii and 360, I bought a Wii. I am even thinking to buy a 360 even though I trash talked it on these forums forever. That's what makes me a fan of video games.

Sticking with your HDDVD player and saying "I won't buy BR" even though it is the industry standard doesn't show a fan of films or a fan of the media technology, it shows a fan of a company.

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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As a person I am not attacking you at all Hughjars but two things you have said I am going to doubt. Healthy debate right?

1) I honestly doubt BR will be anything more than a niche market.

Come on, with the track record you have on being right about the HD media market you will still say things like this? A person could have gotten rich betting money for BR each time you staunchly defended HD. I actually went and read back a bunch of HD posts last night and you were in a lot of them. I'm not sure I saw one post that actually worked out to your prediction. All the market analysts show that HD is the next massive format to hit homes. Sure it won't be like DVD, but it will in time replace DVD as the #1 format. Digital distribution will go up to, but they don't really have a viable "iTunes" like option at this point that people are ready to massively buy into. I do beleve in digital distribution, but it's inability to service quality to the likes of BR and HDDVD will keep it held back.

2) I will not be buying BR.

You are obviously a fan of media, HD media even. That being said I would never believe a true fan of technology would hold back in buying a product only because "their chosen format didn't win the format war". If you look inwards nice and deep you'll see that it is really pride stopping you from buying one. Someday when all your friends have BR players and everyone as these really cool setups, you'll look at your HDDVD upconverter and say, "Man, I need to get Transformers 32 in HD". You'll eventually buy one, I would put money on it.

When PS3 came out and was heavily battered by Wii and 360, I bought a Wii. I am even thinking to buy a 360 even though I trash talked it on these forums forever. That's what makes me a fan of video games.

Sticking with your HDDVD player and saying "I won't buy BR" even though it is the industry standard doesn't show a fan of films or a fan of the media technology, it shows a fan of a company.

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Meh the way the market works one it hits the price range thats inline with DVD it will simply phase DVD out, do you think the media and hardware mafia will continue to release stuff on DVD when tis bottom line is no worse than DVD?

Of coarse it will take 5 years to grow outside a a small niche but its coming because the corporations will make deals with themselfs to move the masses to it and the masses will no option other than to buy the only thing they are selling...

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Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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Come on, with the track record you have on being right about the HD media market you will still say things like this?

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- Well if you want to play that little game that's up to you.

Most serious observers know that this came within a hair's breadth of going exactly as I described (and as I was myself being informed).

The Universal Ken Graffeo interview supports my statements, they all were on their way to CES on their planes believing they had it all signed & sealed.
At some point in future the details will leak out & we'll hear what we missed (like the Tosh 360 tie up & the 2 Blu studios who were in negotiation).

You might even hear what was going on since the WB announcement & in the last couple of weeks and how close things came a 2nd time to getting really interesting for HD DVD.

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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All the market analysts show that HD is the next massive format to hit homes.

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- I have no doubt.

But this time it's going to be DVRs tied in with your satellite/cable deal that make the big splash.

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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Sure it won't be like DVD, but it will in time replace DVD as the #1 format.

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- Blu-ray?

You must be joking.

Expensive, unfinished and too late to the party (by the time it is complete & available in a mass-market-friendly range of prices & specs).

Besides there is still absolutely no indication of the general public being in the least bit interested in paying the premium for what they get for it.

You and I might go all gooey over high def but how many times have you shown it off expecting an enthusiastic reaction only to get told 'it's not that much different' and to be laughed at when told the pricing (and in my case that's the much lower HD DVD pricing)?

Stop kidding yourself.

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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Digital distribution will go up to, but they don't really have a viable "iTunes" like option at this point that people are ready to massively buy into.

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- That will come (and as iTunes themselves only took 3 months to match and pass Blu-ray sales I don't doubt the interest or success - all of which is diluting the market and meaning Blu-ray can never simply be 'the next DVD' because that market, as it was, is long gone.

HD DVD could have done it in a very smooth way by simply becoming DVD thanks to it's low prices & the Twin disc (& to a lesser extent the combo) which left no-one behind when the switch was made to high def.
Blu-ray can never do that (they do not have the rights)

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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I do beleve in digital distribution, but it's inability to service quality to the likes of BR and HDDVD will keep it held back.

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- I think you are seriously & wildly over-estimating the mass-market's interest in the 'nth degree' of either visual or audio quality.

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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I would never believe a true fan of technology would hold back in buying a product only because "their chosen format didn't win the format war".

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- ......and that is absolutely not why I will never buy into Blu-ray.

This isn't like supporting a football team.

There are real and serious concerns I have about Blu-ray that I cannot support.

Their profile mess is the most obvious but the DRM/security matters (and the track record of a major backer with things like root kits) is also of great importance to me.

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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If you look inwards nice and deep you'll see that it is really pride stopping you from buying one.

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- Seriously, you are dead wrong.

I know there are those who dismiss this kind of stuff but IMO Blu-ray is a calculated attack on the sharing community.

I can never & will never give them a penny.

If they drop movie prices to DVD levels and get a sensible range of players at decent prices and ditch BD+ (and their watermarking) and show a couple of years without using rootkits or anything similar then I might reconsider.

But you know as well as I that they are never going to do that.

Blu-ray 'becoming like a better DVD at current DVD prices' was never in the BD script.
(which is why the mass-market will ignore it)

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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Someday when all your friends have BR players

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- You're fooling yourself.
The mass-market is not going Blu, no matter how many PS3s they sell.

Originally posted by Ludikhris:

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Sticking with your HDDVD player and saying "I won't buy BR" even though it is the industry standard doesn't show a fan of films or a fan of the media technology, it shows a fan of a company.

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- .....and like I said if you honestly think those are my reasons for avoiding BD then you could not be more wrong.

I am happy to have an honest debate on the merits or otherwise of the situation but lets at least stick to what I have actually said.

.....and btw the 'company supporter' thing is wrong.
I'm no more interested in a Blu-ray game console than I am an HD DVD game console.
I did buy an XBox 360 HD DVD add-on as the least expensive way into high def just over a year ago but it had nothing to do with games and certainly was not the then £425 the PS3 cost (it was £119 IIRC).

Lately a few posts I have made on these Blu-ray/HD-DVD threads seem to get totally ignored... Is it 1) Because my posts prove a point that no-one wants to admit? or 2) Because my posts make no sense at all?

I honestly don't know because most of the following posts seemed to get back to the I'm right because.... blah, blah, blah!

I know it's an open forum meant for discussion but some of these threads go way too far. Some of the points made are clearly born out of dislike for Sony and their success. I could almost say it represents jealousy. I feel that emotion itself is a sign of immaturity which would explain some of the patterns in these threads.

If it was the other way around and HD-DVD became the successor of DVD, I can guarantee you that I would still be saying positive things about HD-DVD. Actually if it was the other way around where we sit today, I would start looking around to purchase a HD-DVD player because I am a Home Theater enthusiast after all.

hughjars, you still didn't answer my question... :-P

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Originally posted by Ryu77:

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Which format is in a better market position today, Blu-ray or HD-DVD?

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- Between those 2?
On what appears to be the facts as they are today?
Well from the look of things right now it looks like Blu-ray holds the best ground (but we await official confirmation & direct statements).

But I doubt very much that it is as simplistic a situation as you clearly want to imply.

It's still perfectly plausible that Blu-ray can come out of this in the long-run 'winning' absolutely nothing and failing to make the leap out of the niche.

Does that answer your question?

Quote:

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Originally posted by Ryu77:

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Which format is in a better market position today, Blu-ray or HD-DVD?

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- Between those 2?
On what appears to be the facts as they are today?
Well from the look of things right now it looks like Blu-ray holds the best ground (but we await official confirmation & direct statements).

But I doubt very much that it is as simplistic a situation as you clearly want to imply.

It's still perfectly plausible that Blu-ray can come out of this in the long-run 'winning' absolutely nothing and failing to make the leap out of the niche.

Does that answer your question?

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Its official more of less.
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/12950.cfm

I'd give HDVD a 10% chance of toppling BR but rankly.....its done.

hughjars, you broke the rules... Come on! The limit was 7 characters with your answer. The rules of the game were clear. I knew you couldn't do it. If I was Jigsaw, you wouldn't be feeling too good right about now. :-P

Yes, it does answer my question in a round about kind of way. As Zippy said though, it looks official enough to me. If you don't think so... Well...

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Here's the gig, i have very little preference as i own both format players. But...

Quote:

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If you don't think so... Well...

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Fact is...the truth still remains the truth whether it is believed or not.

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Originally posted by 7thsinger:

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Fact is...the truth still remains the truth whether it is believed or not.

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I agree completely but trying to prove that point to some on this forum is hopeless. I wanted to keep my posts here as simple as possible, which is why I asked hughjars for a 7 character answer, which he couldn't even do. I could go on filling up half a thread page with my point of view like some have done here but the way I see it... Is it really worth it?

I have better things to do with my time. I would rather participate in a conversation surrounded by positivity, development and helping people.

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hughjars, let me ask you another question in which I hope brings a simple answer...

You said on a number of occasions that Sony haven't really won anything and have very little chance of escaping a niche market. So logic would say that Sony and Toshiba were competing for this exact same niche market which you speak of. Wouldn't it be fair to say that you believed from the very beginning that Toshiba would also have little chance of making it into the mainstream?

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Originally posted by Ryu77:

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I agree completely but trying to prove that point to some on this forum is hopeless......I could go on filling up half a thread page with my point of view like some have done here but the way I see it... Is it really worth it?

I have better things to do with my time. I would rather participate in a conversation surrounded by positivity, development and helping people.

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That is why I try to avoid news posts (especially BD vs HD) but this time around I had to say something, as sometimes it is just so good to be right from the get go...and knowing it. But why waste my time with people who cannot comprehend certain things. Let alone even acknowledge you have a point.

Originally posted by Ryu77:

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hughjars, let me ask you another question in which I hope brings a simple answer...

You said on a number of occasions that Sony haven't really won anything and have very little chance of escaping a niche market. So logic would say that Sony and Toshiba were competing for this exact same niche market which you speak of. Wouldn't it be fair to say that you believed from the very beginning that Toshiba would also have little chance of making it into the mainstream?

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Damn, that was good....and I am surprised I didn't say that!

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Originally posted by Ryu77:

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Originally posted by 7thsinger:

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Fact is...the truth still remains the truth whether it is believed or not.

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I agree completely but trying to prove that point to some on this forum is hopeless. I wanted to keep my posts here as simple as possible, which is why I asked hughjars for a 7 character answer, which he couldn't even do. I could go on filling up half a thread page with my point of view like some have done here but the way I see it... Is it really worth it?

I have better things to do with my time. I would rather participate in a conversation surrounded by positivity, development and helping people.

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You're absolutely right Ryu. And i have found your posts (among a very few others) to be of the positive mindset. As a general rule i try to post and read as little as possible from these BD vs. HDDvd (as also stated by Oner...and for the same reasons) threads. So, to you, Oner, and a few others i offer a sincere thanks for posting in a good manner.

Quote:

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You said on a number of occasions that Sony haven't really won anything and have very little chance of escaping a niche market. So logic would say that Sony and Toshiba were competing for this exact same niche market which you speak of. Wouldn't it be fair to say that you believed from the very beginning that Toshiba would also have little chance of making it into the mainstream?

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Very true! Could not have said better.


Let's face it: The format war is ending...deal with it. Accept gracefully what you cannot control. I am certainly not going to get excited about a media format that will eventually be replaced by something else.

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The prices are going to really have to come down to make me switch from buying standard DVDs. The main reason is that I only have a single PS3 Blu-Ray player, so if I buy any discs they will not play anywhere else in my house. A lot of what I buy is childrens titles - they will watch them over and over but it's only the occasional movie I watch more than once. The kids usually watch them on the tv in their play room, not the main set where the Blu-Ray player is located. The players are going to have to come down to less than $100 and the discs are going to have to be the same or a very low markup over a standard DVD.

The other reason is that for the most part, upscaled DVD is good enough, and usually cheaper. I have rented quite a few Blu-Ray discs and many are not much improved over the upscaled standard DVD in my perception. I am sure someone could probably point out differences, but if you have to go looking for them, the difference can't be that great.

Originally posted by Ryu77:

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hughjars, let me ask you another question in which I hope brings a simple answer...

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- Look mate I appreciate that you want a nice, neat & simple answers but this is hardly the subject for that kind of response.

The topic just doesn't lend itself to simplistic assessments or answers.

Originally posted by Ryu77:

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You said on a number of occasions that Sony haven't really won anything and have very little chance of escaping a niche market.

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- This is correct
(except I do not often talk about this in terms of 'Sony').

Blu-ray.

Because of the things the BDA have said and done and where Blu-ray is now.

Originally posted by Ryu77:

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So logic would say that Sony and Toshiba were competing for this exact same niche market which you speak of.

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- No. That does not follow & is not actually logical at all.

The formats are not as directly comparable or equivalent as you want to imply in the manner you suggest.

HD DVD could have simply 'become' DVD by an easy and barely noticeable evolutionary process & in a way that Blu-ray can never do.

HD DVD has/had the huge advantage of the Twin disc (and to a lesser degree the combo disc).
Blu-ray (due to the legal rights situation) can never have that (unless the DVD Forum says otherwise).

So right there there is a vast difference in what the 2 formats can do and become.

Had the HD DVD studios switched to only producing Twin discs and combos the move to high def could have been made completely without leaving anyone behind.

Blu-ray cannot do this, it is a huge difference between the formats.

Similarly HD DVD was the only (complete) format to get cheap enough fast enough and offer a proper range of 'final spec' stand-alone devices at various prices & specs.
That is another huge difference.

Originally posted by Ryu77:

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Wouldn't it be fair to say that you believed from the very beginning that Toshiba would also have little chance of making it into the mainstream?

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- No.

You know what the funny thing is hughjars, I had a feeling you would pick up on that one (that I used the word Sony instead of Blu-ray and Toshiba instead of HD-DVD) and I wanted to change it but I thought he can't really bring that up as a point... But then again I should have known you would. I know you understood what I meant, everyone else did. I don't see why you brought up something pointless like that. It seems to be a common theme in your posts. Just to make it clear...

Sony = Blu-ray

Toshiba = HD-DVD

As for everything else, as I said earlier... It's hopeless. You can have your HD-DVD player and be happy with your limited movie selection and I'll have my Blu-ray player and look forward to a growing library that WILL continue to grow and penetrate the mainstream.

You can mark my words on the above statement. If I am wrong I will buy you a HD-DVD player... If I can still get one. :-P

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Originally posted by Ryu77:

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I don't see why you brought up something pointless like that. It seems to be a common theme in your posts.

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- Well you can believe it or not but I do not often bring Sony into the matter unless I think it's appropriate.

It saves the pedantic fanboys from moaning about how Blu-ray isn't all about Sony.

Originally posted by Ryu77:

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Just to make it clear...

Sony = Blu-ray

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- Opps.

Originally posted by Ryu77:

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You can have your HD-DVD player and be happy with your limited movie selection

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- Er, i have a growing movie selection to look forward to.

Warner don't do anything until June, Paramount have announced several new titles and Universal (through their Australian division at least) have at least 20 titles coming.

Then there are the HD TV movies, the new SD DVD titles and the rips (of all formats).

I have no problem with high def content.

Originally posted by Ryu77:

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I'll have my Blu-ray player and look forward to a growing library that WILL continue to grow and penetrate the mainstream.

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- Well guess away.

You have no guarantee that Blu-ray is genuinely going to take off and penetrate the mainstream at all.

It shows absolutely zero sign of doing so at this point.

In fact you have no guarantee that this format war did not just see us end up with 2 losing formats.

R.I.P HD DVD well i had always said it was going to be left up to the retailers to make the final choice to see who wins this war.

Originally posted by borhan9:

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R.I.P HD DVD well i had always said it was going to be left up to the retailers to make the final choice to see who wins this war.

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Well, it's pretty easy to predict things when you're constantly going back in time 2 months in the AfterDawn Time Machine!

Note: Last post in thread by hughjars was on the 19th February 2008.

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