It's unfortunate that Mr. Moore had to layoff a bunch of people, and his company can no longer provide the promised level of support or the promised product upgrades to his customers. I don't know why we should feel sorry for him though. It looks like he had a good run and I doubt if he suffered any personal financial loss. He even got an all expenses paid trip to the funny farm in Washington ...

The squeaky wheel does get the grease, and Mr. Moore squeaked enough to get the attention of Jack Valenti and His Band of Thugs. That was the beginning of the end for his company. If he had kept a lower profile, his ripper products may have survived.

As for personally feeling sorry for Mr. Moore (and seeing as how there doesn't seem to be any love lost between him and I), can I say that I feel about as sorry for him as I feel sorry for the liquor bootleggers when Prohibition was repealed :)

buzzoon, with all this arguing back and forth between you and rhmoore, you have lost most of your audience in this forum. It really just comes off as arguing for the sake of arguing. At this point, who cares?

rhmoore has obviously had to prepare himself quite a bit over the last few months for all the legal wrangling. When I read his posts before all this b..ing started, I saw a fairly clear picture of his arguments and points. Didn't necessarily agree with everything but I had respect for the battle at hand.

Rightly or wrongly, I cannot help from having to suppress the feeling that your point of view is a lot more colored by anger and passion. I am not really sure anymore where you are coming from. Why argue endlessly that rhmoore should admit something or another. Going through every quote and rebutting them point by point and 'over and over' becomes really tedious and pointless.

I keep from this that you always supported the basic premise of the right to privacy, that you used products that 321 developed and distributed at a time when you feel they were already illegal. When you are being asked what Mr Moore should do, you talk about 'how he should admit this and not break the law, etc'(Yawn).

I have the distinct impression that this is going nowhere and desperately needs to have all protagonists immediately check out some other form of entertainment. This is now neither entertaining nor educational. Enough spitting! Even Klingy - who is trying so hard - cannot save this one...

Rhmoore you're doing a great thing, despite what the knockers may say, and buzzoon, you really are a <deleted>if you think he has underlying motives just because he makes money, he's a s/ware developer for <deleted>sake, why do you think he put in all the hard time and effort? To make a program that goes out of it's way to violate some bullshit greedy law?

I'm afraid buzzoon has completely missed the point of what 321 is doing. Why should we have to put up with these sorts of laws, we don't. We have rights as consumers and i don't care who the <deleted> you are, i bought a copy of a game/movie etc, i have the right to make a backup. You stop me from doing that and then you're the one breaking the law.

And evertime buzzoon opens his mouth it just makes him look like a DMCA <deleted> wearing blinkers. Stop arguing for that sake of it and get behind something that matters, just like Robert H Moore is doing.

pbailey:

Please do not ever use the 'F' word in here again, or the other words you have used to describe one of our members.

If your read more carefully, you will discover that buzzoon *does* agree with what Mr. Moore is trying to accomplish. As such, he agrees with you as well, as do I.

<A_K>

siber: Even Klingy - who is trying so hard - cannot save this one.

Oh, I dunno, siber. All depends on your outlook. I've been trained in "damage control". (Yeah, it's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it, eh?)

I'm not in the least bit angry :-)

I am simply trying to make a point that regardless of emotions, regardless of our rights, regardless of the curret state of Mr. Moore's company, and regardless of whether or not we agree with the law, the law was broken and somebody profited by it.

Maybe I'm a little jealous? I know if I broke the law to profit and got caught, I probably wouldn't have access to this keyboard right now.

Anywho ... my point has been made and I promise to leave it alone from now on.

Thanks ...

LOL so sorry bout the f word, we all agree?? That's great!

LOL So sorry bout the f word, we all agree? That's great!

Yep, we all agree. We're all just one, great big happy .... (um).... Family! -- Happy Happy Happy !!

Earlier tonight I was Google-ing my way through miles and miles of text, trying to find out more about Canadian copyright law. As expected, there is so much stuff to wade through, I gave up.

I was looking for something (anything) "legal" that would pertain to copying music and films (cds and dvds) from Public Libraries. Perhaps something that, at least here in Canada, the DMCA couldn't even remotely touch.

In a Canadian Audio magazine, ["UHF", Ultra-High Fidelity] I was surprised to learn that it is legal to make a one-off copy of a music cd, as long as it is for personal, at-home use only. (No lending, no selling, no distribution.)

Legal.

Commercial music cds.

The proviso was that the cd (or cassette, or vinyl LP) had to come from a real, "accredited" Public Library. (You can't just go to a music store, buy a cd and then run off 20 copies for your friends.)

I had hoped to find something similar pertaining to commercial dvds, also as freely loaned by the public libraries, but couldn't find anything in the volumes of text I plowed through, but.....

If it's legal to copy, for personal, non-commercial, private use, a music cd, then why not a dvd? Perhaps it is legal (???)

Anybody know anything about this?

Offnote: You know, when this DMCA thing gets ammended, it could have profound implications for the upcoming HD discs.

If Congress allows for fair use backing-up of legally purchased dvds, one would have to believe this would also extend to High Definition discs.

Who knows how much they will initially cost? $80-$100 each maybe? (Don't laugh - remember the 12" laser discs?)

At that price, I definately believe one should be able to protect their investment!

We can now "get around" the dvd format, but since the HD format hasn't even been finalized yet, it's impossible to say how tough or 'uncrackable' the drm measures will be.

It could be a case where we may be legally _permitted_ to back up our expensive HD disc, but have no way to actually do it.

Hmmmm.... interesting times ahead.

A_K it's interesting you found that about making a legal backup, because i have been under the impression since i started playing around with computers, since i was 7 that you were by law allowed to make a backup of a copy you own, but over the years, i'm now 22, i never actually heard them say you can't do it.

Ofcourse essentially they did, by bringing out copy protection measures, and i remember raising a stink about it over at bjorn3d's forums back in 97, that surely they're breaking the law by introducing measures that stop us from making a legal backup of a copy we own.

Now ofcourse they bung on that you're only buying the right to listen to it, not ownership rights. No poo, ofcourse we see it as that, but as consumers who spend money supporting these so called artits, we don't have the right to protect our own interests, ie listening rights, viewing rights etc.

I don't want to get started, or i'll just ramble on, and unfortunately i have to go to work. With the flu. Everything sucks alot right now.. ;)

Oh yeah, blank dvd rw were about a $100 a pop when i first saw them on the shelves. LOL i only ever saw one of those huge laser disks, and the guy showing me said, this is what all games will be on soon, and i was like, you crazy mon, that's way too big...

Hi A_Klingon
This is my take on the Section 80 of the Copyright Act in Canada
"Copying for Private Use
80. (1) Subject to subsection (2), the act of reproducing all or any substantial part of
(a) a musical work embodied in a sound recording,
(b) a performer's performance of a musical work embodied in a sound recording, or
(c) a sound recording in which a musical work, or a performer's performance of a musical work, is embodied
onto an audio recording medium for the private use of the person who makes the copy does not constitute an infringement of the copyright in the musical work, the performer's performance or the sound recording.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply if the act described in that subsection is done for the purpose of doing any of the following in relation to any of the things referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) to (c):
(a) selling or renting out, or by way of trade exposing or offering for sale or rental;
(b) distributing, whether or not for the purpose of trade;
(c) communicating to the public by telecommunication; or
(d) performing, or causing to be performed, in public."
(http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33761 and http://neil.eton.ca/copylevy.shtml#what_is_a_levy)
I can legally in Canada make a copy of any music work/performance no matter the source. I can own the source. I can borrow the source. I can rent the source. I can dounload the source. The source is not limited to a tape, LP, CD, DVD, hard drive etc. It is whatever/wherever the musical work can be found. DVD do contain musical works. For me this justifies my DVD backups. This has not been tested in the courts making a legal interpretation uncertain.
I hope this helps

The guy should still have been sued, but only for his bad taste in software.

Hey Siber, fortunately we don't loose forums and fortunately we can get loose from pointless threads. I try to (although sometimes without success), remind myself that everyone is always going to be right in their one heads, and some discussions end will in unresolvable debates.

---

This one has calmed down quite a bit. Yesterday we had some serious shouting going on. As we both know, it is possible to drop an issue, walk away from it and find out that there really is a next day.

What there's a next day?! I thought it was to-day... :S

Well, you've confused me now... I'll just stick to the rule of life: Live everyday like it's your last.

Too confrontational...Imagine if you really thought this was your last day. You'd never shut up, you'd always think you've got nothing to lose, you'd fight every fight...Nice slogan but luckily that's all it is. The world would be one crazy place every day...But I agree with the concept of enjoying every day to the fullest.

So, So, True Siber! When there is no point or reason to be ganined from further debate, then let it go and move on.

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chthomson

THANK YOU for that information !!!

Yes, that does *indeed* help!

Finally, some legal text that doesn't require a law degree to understand!

The information you quoted seems very straightforward to me. We can legally copy a music (source) for our own use. Cool!

Too bad that, technically, no mention of video was made. (Don't know when those laws actually came into effect, but surely, at least vhs was around at that time?)

However, nowhere in those provisions does it say you can't also copy a video source either.

So, yeah..... I think we're pretty lucky. And you must be right too, about it also being legal to own _downloaded_ copies of music as well (from P2P sources like 'Kazaa', etc.) Recently I was reading a news article (from here I believe) which stated that the record companies were trying to 'crack down' on P2P file swappers here in Canada, but as I haven't heard of any outcome from these 'threats', I will believe that it is still 100% legal to do so.

Excellent!

pbailey, hope your flu doesn't get you down. I too have never head anyone say Canadians can't make personal music copies either, whether from self-owned or rented/borrowed sources.

I'm in favor of protecting intellectual property rights as long as it's the rights of the creators that are being protected. The problem with making a decision that puts intellectual properties' in the hands of movie moguls or the RIAA is that it puts a strangle hold on creativity. Business people decide on the sound, image, and future direction of what we hear. They sift and filter it for what they, this small population of no talents, think should be what we're hearing. I support the law as it is written even thought there is much of it I am greatly displeased with.

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hear hear.

Excellent thread.

:( cheers A_K.

I can legally in Canada make a copy of any music work/performance no matter the source. I can own the source. I can borrow the source. I can rent the source. I can dounload the source. The source is not limited to a tape, LP, CD, DVD, hard drive etc. It is whatever/wherever the musical work can be found. DVD do contain musical works. For me this justifies my DVD backups.

Sigh! If only it were that simple. Re-read Sentence 2 of your post and think about how a Judge would interpret this with respect to your source.

PS ... before you get everyone in Canada going, you may want to bounce your interpretation of Canadian Copyright Law off a copyright lawyer. (This is something our friend Mr. Moore should have done before he developed and marketed his product) :)

Hi A_Klingon
The Private Copying Regime law was created in 1997. Prior to that it was illegal to make copies of musical works. When it became legal to make a private copy of music a levy was imposed on recordable medium - cassettes and cds. These monies collected are to be distributed to music artists according a distribution formula to compensate for private copying.
In their December 2003 decision, the Copyright Board states:
"The regime does not address the source of the material copied. There is no requirement in Part VIII that the source copy be a non-infringing copy. Hence, it is not relevant whether the source of the track is a pre-owned recording, a borrowed CD, or a track downloaded from the Internet."
Video is not included in the Private Copying Regime only music. The Copyright Act defines sound recording as ""sound recording" means a recording, fixed in any material form, consisting of sounds, whether or not of a performance of a work, but excludes any soundtrack of a cinematographic work where it accompanies the cinematographic work;

Uploading is still being decided on. In March the court ruled having music in a shared folder on a p2p network is not distribution. This case is under appeal. We might have an answer this fall.

buzzoon
I make copies of musical works. That is legal under Canadian Copyright law. See http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33231. My DVDs have music works and performances. Music videos are great entertainment. Legal opinion has no value unless supported by a court case. No one has been convicted of travelling 1K over the limit but it is still classified as speeding

Interesting chthompson ... thanks!

we are the workers of fair use,,but it seems that most
people leave it up to some one else and all else fails.
because NO one stickes together , even though we have the rights to act ,,we fall beside the way side amd the RIAA know this...they say people give out and just let it be ..these americans need to be governed by sadum and have a Big hard ship and then and only then will they injoy god and the united states and what We have to offer, people better get in to the fight for your rights, or you will have someone like Sadum-that will MAKE you like it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

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Uploading is still being decided on. In March the court ruled having music in a shared folder on a p2p network is not distribution. This case is under appeal. We might have an answer this fall.

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Good thing it's not considered distribution. At least yet. I have Canadian law to back me up should the RIAA come busting my door down only to discover I have a C:\Kazaa\Shared\... folder.

And no , I _don't_ have 108 full .mp3 albums which I (didn't) download from various P2P's! Oh! How could you even think such a thing !

Thanks for the earlier link. I have saved the entire Canadian copyright act, available as a .pdf file.

Has anyone tried buying the Platinum ripper version 4.0.3.8 here?

http://www.platinumripper.com/

They are overseas and seem to still be selling it. They say they will fully support it and get it working for you. If they can’t they will give you a full refund.

Buzz55

`Mr Moore. I find your products very worthwhile. I also purchased them after finding out about your xcopy platinum from a fellow co worker. I have had much success with your products. I also have games x copy. I salute you on your perseverience and stalwart helmsmanship of your company. I am so sorry to see 321 studios lost to the world. I hope things will go better in the future for you and you will be able to send us some new technology to help us middle class consumers in the relativly near future

Bobbie