I have to agree with Madhacker here. I think what the problem is, is that for the first time in history consumers have the ability to say "no your not gonna rape me anymore, cuz i no longer have to pay it." and the entertainment companies dont know what to do about it. They are so used to raping the consumer that they will spend millions of dollars presecuting a 14 year old kid who likes m&m or creating useless disk protections instead of just charging a fair price for they're product. I believe that 90% of people are deep down honest. And would pay a fair price for a product as opposed to stealing it. But as long as we all feel like we are being screwed. They will not stop it no matter the laws they pass.

Good luck. Just another attempt of the United States keeping a "thumb" on it's people. There are 6 billion people in this world and 300 million in this country...........what are they gonna do..........put the whole country in jail. B/C that's what they're going to have to do b/c NO ONE will stop using Kazaa. There is no feasible way to monitor the 100 million computers in the US and whether or not they are actively using one (1) tiny, specific program. They will ban and possibly pass a law and people will circumvent and break the law and they will have to throw thousands and thousands in jail. It better not pass or maybe the citizens of the US should consider overthrowing the gov't and BUSH. Bush is such a prick and a liar and he's the reason behind all this bullshit regulating. There's money in it for him........just like there was when HE LIED TO US about WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION so as to go to war (which generates mass amounts of income). Anyone who like Bush............GET THE HELL OUT OF THIS COUNTRY. He represents US and he lied to us.........fuck all who support him.......and GOD have mercy on your soul.

humm, liberating 50 million people from an oppressive rule. am i the only one who sees that as being a good thing? oh, so its his private war eh? well maybe if the UN didnt have its hands in saddams wallet we could have finished this during round one in 91. the only reason Bush Sr. didnt just finish the job is because the UN wouldnt let him, why? cause it was stealing money from iraq and wanted saddam to stay in power for there own selfish reasons. i fail to see how this is "bush's war" millions of lives have been spared, and maybe there was no WMD, but iraq broke 17 UN resolutions. the UN didnt care so long as they still got there money. the us enforced the law. thats it.

wake up left. wake up.

Sorry,I just couldn't resist:

The Left is awake. The Right is just so damn loud and freakin' pushy!!!!!!!!!!!!! We need a more balanced attitude in this country. Sometimes it seems that we are on a slow decline towards a full fledged fascist state. It seems to have already become a police state. I dig security and understand the Europe vs US debate, but during my times abroad what I noticed were all the armed men at the airports of Europe (Rome in particular). This was something that I had not seen in America until post 9/11. So, whatever is happening is truly a "New World Order" way beyond any Orwellian prophecy concerning "newspeak" and "big brother"-type oppression. It's not just the US, Its all over the freakin' world!
As for the "speaking German" comment I would have to call attention to the founding of this country. Did you know that German was the only other language considered by the "founding fathers" as a national language. It was debated. Look it up. At that time Germans made up the second largest majority. Many New Englanders were actually German cousins. So German would not have made much of a difference. Both languages come from the same root anyway, according to History in Linguistics.
And yes, some European countries have high taxes, but they also have forms of free healthcare and offer social welfare to its citizens without stigmatizing them. Also, as an artist living and paying taxes in America, I can say that European countries know how to treat their artists. For example, in Austria artists are given free stipends for life! No such democratic support from any American agency here unless you create censored work! The only grants given here are intenseley competed for. A Rat race, if you ask me. As for "liberating 50 million people.." well, I really don't think you even believe that. If you buy into that one then I will pray for you, my son.
I love P2Ps. Peer to Peer, not Politics to Politics. I totally agree with Madhacker. Bad, short-sighted bills never last even when they're passed.

i pray for people who are as blinded as yourself.
(btw i knew about the german thing, it was voted down by only one vote) these people dont have to worry about being raped, tourtured or oppressed anymore and if you cant see that as good, than you are a blind fool plain and simple.

thought this was about p2p

FUCK THE GOVERNMENT !!!!!! P2P RULES AND WILL STAY FOREVER !!!!!

Ah sooo. 'Tis a shame indeed, but all too telling that when right-wing pseudo-intellectuals are shown the holes in their arguments they resort to calling names. Sticks-n-stones my friend. I am no "blind fool".

It sounds like you could use a good prayer, or maybe you just need to be forced to your knees.

FLAME ON!

BTW: Last time I checked we were on planet Earth. We all have to worry about being raped, tortured and oppressed (in one form or another) everywhere we go and it's not good! Don't be naive.

Yaucano, I could have told you ahead of time what kind of response you would get. Shouting, insulting and hurling names at people are typical answers you can expect to get when a knowledgeable and well-constructed point is raised.

I have long given up hope in convincing anybody in this century with a different point of view than mine. All I get is senseless argumentation, ranting and raving. Not many people even want to hear what your position is, they just want to hear themselves argue. Good luck with this one!

just thought i would give you guys the web page about senator orin hatch (R) Utah. this is the original news post from the wired news. in case any of you wanted to read it for yourselves.

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,59305,00.html


Hope it makes you madd enough to wanna fight

by the way, the main site is down for cyberights, but you can still view the old content at http://www.cyberights.org/index2 if you wanna

WOW
Just read the Orrin Hatch article. I don't know if it sounds Communist, but it certainly rings fascistic. Any programmer worth his salt would never agree to develop such corrosive software. Government cannot violate the private lives and personal property and rights of people to "defend" the rights of copyright holders (2 wrongs dont make a right) Right?

Everything copied is for personal use only. They need to figure out how to track those who profit from those personal copies. It is profiteering that is unwelcomed. They need to go after those who mass copy products for sale on various black markets. Leave the individuals personal space and property alone! After all it is the free Market enterprise that is being threatened, not the copyright holders themselves.

Sounds to me like P2P programmers need to be more attuned as to how their programs are being used. A fair enough settlement would be a small subscription fee for its use. I'd agree to that, but funding the development of software that could remotely disable your computer is just wrong.

To anyone out there who knows how: Dont you think it's time for a round of viruses aimed at the Hatch site. >)

BTW: siber, thanks for your comments. ;) ;) LOL

Yaucano,

Nothing is free. Someone has to earn the money to pay for that "Free Healthcare" and "Social Welfare".

[/For example, in Austria artists are given free stipends for life!]

If you are not getting enough free stuff here in the USA. Emmigrate and be a burden on some other country's working people.

MadHacker; care to post your Name, Rank & Serial number? Sounds to me you might have retired as an E-5. Only did enough to get a retirement! 20 years? A cook? Emmigrate also to the Socialist country of your choice.

da_judge; You obviously have a "hard on" for Orrin Hatch. Your link was to an excerpt on a webpage that is over a year old. Care to post the entire text of his oration, on the Senate Floor, for that day? A little context may be in order.

Wish I had time to go further tonight. P2P will not die as long as we have freedom of speach. Person to person is also P2P. 1st Ammendment will go on. To protect the first one, we also have the second one....

TC

Funny how some right-wing partisan people react. They often say things like, "If you don't like it here, then go somewhere else." Where do they get the nerve to suggest that you should leave a country you were born in.

Message to the Right: Rest assured. No one wants to throw the baby out with the bathwater!

Buik,
If you had successfully read my comments you would know that it is quite clear to me that free healthcare and other socially relevant government programs cost money. That's why taxes are high in some countries in Europe. It is a given. But taxes are high here too.

You wrote, "Nothing is free." in one sentence and then you wrote, "If you are not getting enough free stuff here in the US. Emmigrate etc." The latter comment contradicts the first. You not only state the obvious in the first sentence but you fall back on yourself in your zeal to insult me and suggest that I "emmigrate." I work and pay taxes. I have paid for everything I have!

I wonder, do you "emmigrate". Have you ever even left the bubble that you're in? I mean as a human being, not stationed on some barrack cloistered away in some bunker on foreign soil. Don't get me wrong. My brother is in Iraq. We have our differences. If you're such a "soldier" as your comment implies then why dishonor another's term of service? I refer to your challenge to Madhacker.

I welcome context, but the issue concerns one government official suggesting development of software that will deliberately damage personal property. That is irresponsible. I can't see how context will change my opinion. I guess you think it's okay.

Lastly, Why don't you emmigrate? From the tone of your comments though, I don't think you could successfully live anywhere else. I for one am glad that I can live anywhere I choose.

"Every citizen is a frontline soldier."

I realize that the link i posted is an old article. My point wasnt to say that it is currently happening. It was just to point out the general mood in our legislature. It will probably never come to nuking citizens computers. And all i hear is the first amem. or the 2nd amen. We cant hide behind those forever. and if you think that those 2 clauses in our constitution will protect you from having your rights trampled, you live in a very dark world. How far off do you think it is for companies to start installing tracking software in they're movies that notify the developer when it is installed. How far off do you think it is when it is mandated for isp's to report excessive usage of bandwidth. If you wanna hide behind liberties you think you have be my guest. But dont talk down to someone that is wanting to protect your future rights.

---

Yaucano.

First and foremost, tell your brother that I thank him for his service. And that I hope that he returns safely to the US.

I was wondering if I put too many "m"s in emigrate. Don't have to type that word very often.

You and I have each other pegged politically. I dont think either of us are going to change. pointless argument from here on out. I will not apologize for anything said thus far and do not accept your criticisms. Im sure you feel the same. Otherwise, I would not have received your attention.

We are totally off post at this point.

What we need to do is read the proposed amendment. Read the transcript of what Trent Lott said on the senate floor that day. Just the facts please!! Not some journalistic synopsis that supports a preconceived
idea. There tends to be a lot of "knee jerking" going on these days.

I am not in support of the proposed amendment.

I do not believe that companies have the right to "spy" on citizens in any way, shape, or form.

P2P is a tool for transfer of data from multiple sources. It is no different than the USPS, UPS, FedEx, etc. That it has been exploited to "pirate" copyrighted material is regretable. Just hate how things have gone. Teach me how to read & then regret you also taught me how to write? I could make copies that way of any text I come across.

Yaucano, let's bury the hatchet, for now, on this thread. We can parse later.

In parting, The Pirate act was sponsored by Patrick Leahy (D). Co-sponsors are: Lamar Alexander (R), Orrin Hatch (R), and Charles Schumer (D). Now I am getting scared.

TC

Buik...Yaucano...it's been a pleasure reading your exchanges 'in the middle of the jungle'.

Indeed -Hatchet buried 'nuff said.

Siber,

This is why I love America.

Actually, destroying computers is more communistic than facist. Facism is just the belief in the philosophy that a certain race, religion, or way of life is superior to another. Communism is the complete division of resources to eliminate classes. Not allowing some in a commune to have a certain product is communistic.

fascism and fascist, otherwise well put. Accusing the U.S. Senate of communism for wanting to outlaw P2P networks would add an interesting angle.

they are a bunch of communist pigs!!!! the government as a whole is a communist pig!!! that must be why i have been getting strange phone calls off and on, maybe my words are getting to them and they are coming to visit me lol...... My attitude towards the government on this issue would be to tell them to take there BS and shove it up there Azz. And leave us people alone. P2P is a good thing , lets keep it around, screw the government, and all in government that are crooked, liars, cheats, and a bunch of f pansies!!!

Mad Hacker-

I see your point. It is expedient politically-speaking to use the word "communist", but Once Upon a Time Communism meant something more than Class Warfare and Elitism.

lazygig,

"Fascism is just the belief in the philosophy that a certain race, religion, or way of life is superior to another."

You have described Racism, my friend.

Fascism is the acting out of that belief. Someone who can suggest legislation for the destruction of private property would have to think themselves superior in order to do so.

"Communism is the complete division of resources to eliminate classes."

The Senators suggestion is not about the "complete division" of resources, it is about negating the individuals right to Free Speech.

On second thought, Communism and Fascism have been conflated by the American media since the 1950's to the point where many Americans can't tell the difference (that's exactly how Government officials want it) I don't think a chatroom discussion is going to change that.

Yaucano, stick around.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Fascism

A good start for those who want to start hurling words.

Take you BP Rx to start with. Let's all make sure we know what the word(s) mean before we use them.

Yaucano, I suspect we may have more in common than we first thought. If you just like a good argument. We can do that also. Inherited the argument thing from my mother. Dad has Prussian heritage.

We have been all over the political spectrum as far as titles are concerned.

There needs to be some kind of structure & organization in any society. Anarchy simply will not cut it. Anarchy is a "free for all". I have seen posts from some users that appear, to me, to be "I want to do what ever I want, when I want to & how I want to". Chaos is not the way civilization progresses.

TC