Blu-ray catching up to HD DVD

I wonder when they are going to kiss and make up? Oh that's right they are going to leave some of their consumers out to dry with a format thats not made anymore, in the name of money of course. Think I'll wait a few more years or just until they stop making DVD's and I own a Hi-Def TV.

I don't care who wins, I hope it's (HD-DVD). But like i said the only thing i care is a winner. Just don't make it 2 format. Let there be a winner please. Someone need to give up.

i hope Blu-ray wins it already comes in ps3.. works with games, you don't need an add on. holds alot more space than HD-DVD. there are already blue ray burners for purchase, (i have yet to see a HD DVD burner) thr add on for xbox is only for movies... so games will always be limited to 9GB on a regular DVD.. no HDMI on xbox.. so you can't get the best picture from the xbox HD-DVD add on.. i say Blu-ray all the way =] -Lex

@ lxfactor, I wonder if you'll feel like that when the ps3 laser goes out?

haha true...but im hoping HD-DVD wins! blue ray is to uch $$

lxfactor ya but in acuple of years the 360 will have a HDVD built in,and HDVD is doing a bit better than BR,since BR has made some movies so sloppily they have to remake them in real high def frankly I don't care who wins but things are looking in HDVD favor. Plus Sony could make a dual reading PS3 in 4 years and sale it for 200-400 and be the media center it as meant to be.

No-one ever said there'd be no PS3 effect in Blu-ray movie disc sales.

But the stark truth is that with over 1 million PS3's sold the effect has been so small (and at such huge cost).

Blu-ray is now PS3, the stand-alone units from the other CE companies just aren't selling (25 000 was their own figure at CES), unlike HD-DVD stand-alone units.

That might seem superfically 'good' seeing as Sony have sold over 1 million PS3s but the truth is that turning Blu-ray into a PS3 proprietary brand is not good for Blu-ray in the longer term.......and certainly not if it means such small retail disc sales.
(and compared to SD DVD retail disc sales both high def formats sell in tiny amounts)
Disc 'attachment' rates are clearly very low with the PS3 owners.....but then that much should have been obvious about a games machine.

It's also true that sales tend to rise and fall with movie releases and Blu-ray has had a couple of decent releases lately whilst HD-DVD has not.

Expect this effect to mean the situation is fluid as one rises on the back of one big release and then later the other rise on the back of it's new big release.

I just want someone to win already. I would hate to have a dead format sitting in my living room.

Well well everything is looking good in Blu-ray land.I guess Blu-ray.com wasn't a bias site after all as some people stated.

Yeah, really going great. :lol:

Clutch those straws.

Blu-ray's been cracked.

Blu-ray's become little more than a PS3 proprietary format.

PS3 owners aren't buying Blu-ray movies in anything like the numbers predicted.

PS3's themselves aren't selling in anything like the numbers predicted.

HD-DVD has still sold more discs since inception.

HD-DVD sold more discs for the week of Jan 21st (and re-opened their lead to a similar level as existed on Jan 7th).

I can even find sites (easily) showing HD-DVD is still outselling Blu-ray
Axelmusic shows that HD-DVD is outselling Blu-ray
http://www.axelmusic.com/index_fab.php?f...mat_name=HD-DVD

But according to the resident Sony shill that's all great.

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That might seem superfically 'good' seeing as Sony have sold over 1 million PS3s but the truth is that turning Blu-ray into a PS3 proprietary brand is not good for Blu-ray in the longer term.......and certainly not if it means such small retail disc sales. (and compared to SD DVD retail disc sales both high def formats sell in tiny amounts) Disc 'attachment' rates are clearly very low with the PS3 owners.....but then that much should have been obvious about a games machine.

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well im not sure that in the long run it really matters considering all Blu-ray has to do is outlast HD-DVD, right? if that does happen the market would be flooded with players, supply shoots up surpassing demand and before you know it, the price of a player has come down significantly. 900 plus bucks for a Blu-ray player is quite excessive at this point and like you could imagine its hard to compete with another format that offers similar if not equal abilities at a much much much lower price...i believe the first released samsung player wasn't too much to brag about from the Blu-ray side and most users actually think the ps3 is a better player than the standalone unit. surely the price gap makes things even sweeter. now again most new technologies aren't always perfected till after they hit the market but considering the price tag, reviews on the early on hardware, reviews of the movies released early on(many people saying its actually less quality than that of hd-dvd), the then release and price of the ps3, why would people want to go shell out that much money on a standalone player. as hard as it might be for some people to drop the betamx and VHS comparison, i think its clear that sony is not playing to lose this time. their best chance and possibly only chance lies with the ps3. pirates of the caribbean is due out in may for Blu-ray here, and i believe i just read an article on AD saying something about disney's sales of movies on itunes and pirates was leading the charge. i actually said this early on in another thrad

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i mean seriously how many people are going to run out and by 3,5,10...n+ year old movies that they probably already own on DVD??? or if they didn't own it on dvd why the hell would they all of a suddden want to own this stuff now??? it doesn't really make all that much sense in my head, but it also could be ignorance on my part as i am not an avid follower of the two formats.....the one thing i will say that would definately have had an impact on sales for atleast Blu-ray, would have been the release of Pirates of the Caribbean during the holiday rush, much like it was released (i think) at that time on DVD. thats just my thought, personally i think that movie with the market at the time of Blu-ray players (PS3 about 500k) would have been more than a success in terms of comparing sales to its competitor. i really don't see a movie at that time for HD-DVD that would be able to compete. maybe overall sales betweenn HD-DVD and that movie but no one movie

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i had already made that point before the article from here about disney sales was released, so i think my logic holds tight. right now and no one can argue this, but the market for Blu-ray compared to HD-DVD is much larger, is growing and will only continue to widen the gap. that of course will be when they release the euro launch. i think they are shipping around 1 million units. do us a favor and put your bias and feelings about sony or the price of the ps3 in your pocket and atleast realize that i don't think it will be farfetched to think that sony can't sell every last one of them within say month from launch if not sooner. that is yet another 1 MIILION Blu-ray players. the attachment rate as you point out doesn't have to be as great as compared to HD-DVD, why well the market is so much larger. lets say there are 500k HD-DVD players and only 1million Blu-ray players. the attachment rate for HD-DVD better be pretty high considering there is already a 2 to 1 gap in players. like i pointed out earlier lets see how things play out once you see some real major, more recent blockbusters released (daVinci code, pirates, cars, grudge2(japan), spiderman, casino royale etc etc) same could be said for HD-DVD as well but i don't own a player so im not too concerned with things on that side. i think as more and more ps3s or lets just call them Blu-ray players are sold, i feel the weaker people's arguments are becoming especially that on the HD-DVD side. argue the attachment rate, price, proprietary format, and so on, but again when your leading the market share in terms of hardware, everyone doesn't have to own 3,5,7, n+ videos to equal out the market. lets wait for some major titles released, its already apparent that once Blu-ray gets some good titles the masses are buying...

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well im not sure that in the long run it really matters considering all Blu-ray has to do is outlast HD-DVD, right?

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- No, I don't think it's as simple as that.

Blu-ray has cost it's backers a hell of a lot of money (I believe the CEO of Matsushita is on record as saying they all shovelled in some $60 billions into it in new plant and machinery).
By contrast HD-DVD has, relatively speaking, cost almost nothing.

HD-DVD can therefore afford lower and slower returns, far far better than Blu-ray.
HD-DVD is the one that just has to remain in the game.
It's Blu-ray that needed to knock HD-DVD out of it and has singularly failed to do so.

.....and thanks to the Microsoft/Broadcom deal announced at CES the Chinese really are coming with those inexpensive HD-DVD players later this year.
Sub $200/£100 players mean it's all over for Blu-ray as anything but a PS3 proprietary format.

A PS3 selling so slowly and so far below original estimates will not help Blu-ray when that happens.

Those other CE companies can't afford to sit around getting nothing out of this, give it a little time & watch more of them go dual format - just like LG already did this year.

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i believe the first released samsung player wasn't too much to brag about from the Blu-ray side

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- Quite true, and the 2nd gen $800 isn't setting anyone alight with enthusiasm either.

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most users actually think the ps3 is a better player than the standalone unit.

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- That appears to be true (excepting the report of bugs).
Unfortunately the Blu-ray specs aren't even finalised yet!

There are currently 4 different specs and a supposedly final decision to freeze matters is to be made at the end of 2007!

Who knows just how 'out in the cold' that will leave people with 1st & 2nd gen players and PS3's?

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i think its clear that sony is not playing to lose this time.

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- That''s just rhetorical, when did they ever?

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their best chance and possibly only chance lies with the ps3.

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- I'd agree with that as a statement of their strategy (which must really p*ss owners of the Sony stand-alone off as it is both inferior and more expensive).

But frankly turning Blu-ray into a PS3 proprietary format (and there is surely no other way to descibe it now) is symptomatic of a general failure of the format in the longer term.

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pirates of the caribbean is due out in may for Blu-ray here, and i believe i just read an article on AD saying something about disney's sales of movies on itunes and pirates was leading the charge.

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- Yes but all these claims of sales have to be put into context.

All high def sales are pifflingly tiny when compared to SD DVD sales.

They're measuring in a few thousands whilst SD DVDs still sell in millions.
You cannot ignore that - and that is why these inflated tales of 'victory' just because of the small PS3 induced 'blip' in sales are so ridiculous.

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how many people are going to run out and by 3,5,10...n+ year old movies that they probably already own on DVD?

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- That remains to be seen (and poor SD DVD playback on Blu-ray machines isn't much of a plus there - it's not even part of the current formal requirement, never mind things like upscaling).

I remember people saying the same things when VHS died and DVD took over.

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the one thing i will say that would definately have had an impact on sales for atleast Blu-ray, would have been the release of Pirates of the Caribbean during the holiday rush, much like it was released (i think) at that time on DVD.

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- Well I agree, but then as I already said 'big releases' on either format are going to push movie sales on one or other format way up the listings.....particularly if it coincides with a 'quiet period' on the side.

(As has just been the case recently with HD-DVD btw.)

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i think that movie with the market at the time of Blu-ray players (PS3 about 500k) would have been more than a success in terms of comparing sales to its competitor.

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- That ought to be the case but the 'attachment' rates just aren't there for PS3 owners.

'The Departed' releases soon on both formats, that will be a nice - but just a little - indicator of some of the current state of play.....and then watch those numbers pale next to SD-DVD sales numbers.

That's the central big deal, even with a million PS3s out there and a supposed movie disc selling lead (at least some of the time) the sales are nothing to be writing home about.

Until things really gear up nothing is decided.

That will happen when people start to buy the cheap players in the shopping malls, at your Walmarts and Asdas for $200/£100......which is where HD-DVD has this covered and Blu-ray absolutely does not.

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no one movie

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- I think anyone making too much of one - or even a dozen! - particular movies is deluding themselves, this is much bigger than that.

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the market for Blu-ray compared to HD-DVD is much larger, is growing and will only continue to widen the gap.

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- Well superfically that would appear correct.
But the fly in that particular ointment is how many PS3 buyers really care so much about movies.

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i don't think it will be farfetched to think that sony can't sell every last one of them within say month from launch if not sooner.

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- The initial allocation will probably sell out within a month or two, of course.

It's what happens after that that is important.

Will sales stall so badly as they have elsewhere?

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the attachment rate as you point out doesn't have to be as great as compared to HD-DVD, why well the market is so much larger.

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- Yes I get what you're getting at here but you're over-looking the fact that whether Blu-ray sales creep ahead of HD-DVD sales or not (in any particular quarter) those sales are tiny compared to SD DVD.

It is the inability of Blu-ray to break into the wder market that is hurting their investors so badly......and that will be why they move to dual format to hoover up what they can from the HD-DVD side of the fence as it exists now.....and then finally rush to embrace it as HD-DVD becomes the mainstream format of choice in the mass-market.

My understanding is that right now both sides are making money, just.
Whether that is enough for those that have splashed out such a huge initial investment remains to be seen......particularly as the rest of the Blu-ray consortium watch Sony undercut every one of them so badly, rendering their own stand-alones pointless and rooted to the store shelves.

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lets say there are 500k HD-DVD players and only 1million Blu-ray players. the attachment rate for HD-DVD better be pretty high considering there is already a 2 to 1 gap in players.

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- Apparantly it is in the region of 26 HD-DVD movie discs per player.

The HD-DVD side expect to sell 2.5 million players this year
(and that's not counting those inexpensive mass-market Chinese players which are due in Q2/3 of this year).

Perhaps you can see why they aren't concerned
(especially in view of the very low initial costs of HD-DVD)?

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i think as more and more ps3s or lets just call them Blu-ray players are sold, i feel the weaker people's arguments are becoming especially that on the HD-DVD side.

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- Really?

Cos I find alot of the HD-DVD arguement very convincing given the background and together with events we now see.

You've also ignored one of the most central issues in all of this.
I guess it's understandable because Blu-ray (in a parallel of the stand-alone player situation) have had very low sales and extortionately high prices rendering the high def part of this market almost invisible to date.

HD-DVD PC burners.
They've already come out on some laptops.

Soon coming to a PC near you;
for a hell of a lot less money than the Blu-ray equivelent.

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lets wait for some major titles released, its already apparent that once Blu-ray gets some good titles the masses are buying...

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- Sadly for Blu-ray tho that is precisely what the sales numbers are not showing.....and like I said a few big titles aren't going to decide this either way.

In any event both sides have excellent potential content - HD-DVD's is actually the more diverse and thanks to international rights and agreements covers quite a lot of those supposedly Blu-ray exclusive films.

HD-DVD not being regionally coded (unlike Blu-ray) will matter and appeal to a lot of people too.

Low relative sales (when compared to their possible market), whether it be PC burners, players, PS3s or retail movie discs are absolutely not impressive at all.

Last but not least is the DRM issue.

If you want a world with more DRM installed on your high def DVD's then go Blu-ray.

If not then it's got to be HD-DVD.

whytelyou why would the blue ray laser go out? ive had my ps2 for years... and the laser never went out... ZIppyDSM okay in a few years when xbox 360 will have a HD-DVD built in... thats not now... so does that mean existing xbox360 people have to buy a new one? kinda sucks if u ask me.. thats the new 360 is already obsolete.. and sony already said the ps3 will live till at LEAST till 2010 hughjars actually blu ray is winning to a 2-1 ratio.. hd-dvd was cracked way before just not avalible on bittorrent... i doubt you will download a 22gb movie anyways...

Originally posted by lxfactor:

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why would the blue ray laser go out? ive had my ps2 for years... and the laser never went out...

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- Well first of all a red laser isn't a blue laser so a straight comparison between the two isn't really appropriate
(and fair enough, you were lucky some folks were, but stacks of people weren't with their PS2s so QC might not be all that).

Secondly the fact is that blue lasers have a limited life, currently reckoned to be approx 3 years of 'normal' use.

I suppose we'll see soon enough if putting that games machine in an all-in-one with your movie player was such a great idea afterall.

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actually blu ray is winning to a 2-1 ratio.

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- Yeah right, this month.

As I showed it depends whos stats you believe, what side has a schedule of major releases and whether or not that coincides with the other having a quiet period.

You might also want to consider just how poor that 'winning' figure is considering how many PS3's they say they've sold......and especially when you compare it to SD DVD sales.

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hd-dvd was cracked way before just not avalible on bittorrent

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- Er, actually I know exactly when HD-DVD was cracked and available on bittorrent, it was just a couple of weeks ago.

....and we all knew Blu-ray was going down very quickly straight after it too (because of the methods used).

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i doubt you will download a 22gb movie anyways.

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Oh, why not?

It's only a matter of hours on a decent broadband connection - or even if the demand is high and the speed slows it's a day or two tops, so what?

For those of us who were downloading during the dial up days this idea that 22gbs will take too much time is laughable.

You should have tried it when DivX movies took a couple of weeks.

hm. I bet i know which format wins...Blu-ray. why? because more computer manufacturers are standing behind it. I think the battle is already over. http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/03/18/bluray/index.php

You're kidding yourself kearney, it's not even really begun in earnest yet.

When you remove the PS3 from the equation even by the Blu-ray associations own figures they've sold only 25,000 of all other Blu-ray units (that's stand-alones and PC burners).
So no, the computer backing, like all that supposedly vital CE backing, has added up to sweet F.A.

Like Blu-ray stand-alones the Blu-ray PC burners are not selling either.

They haven't even settled on the final spec for Blu-ray yet (so watch you don't end up with an out of date version).....there's a meeting due at the end of this year to finally freeze the spec and settle the mess of the present 4 different standards.

Blu-ray PC burners cost a small fortune and so does the blank media.

The Toshiba HD-DVD burner is out in march and expected to signifanctly undercut the Blu-ray competition, others will follow shortly.

We'll see which the consumer selects and sells and which stays bolted to the store shelves.

lxfactor in one way its a good move "let the consumer buy and build his own system" however both MS and sony are going at it arse backwards,one lets you play with the HD the other lets you go core HD and then HDVD. What they should have done was focused around HDMI the digital protected output made that into a port/cable that plugs into the machine giving it full HDMI for 150-200$ (covering the losses on the BR/HD drive)then let the consumer pick their hdds and such if MS did this the 360 would have a HDVD player in it from the start and the price of the system would be the same sony could drop their price 200 and fight the consoles wars on the high ground. As it is both came onto the filed of battle flawed and broke themselfs before any hit was landed,the 360 is limping along well the PS3 is frighten of its own shadow and anything else becuse the light of truth stings.... while nintendo is running around on the ground filling all the places the others don't go. I am tired of the "blind wars"...and PR foolishness I want fun gaming back not this over hyped graphics is god BS gaming has become the last few years....

kearney good post ! =] hughjars give it up bro... fox is on blu-rays side... fox is part of news corp.. as you know... news corp owns myspace.com.. popular website with millions of users registered... they will promote Blu-ray titles to the fullest.. and people will buy it.. just like people bought the helio phone

Originally posted by lxfactor:

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fox is on blu-rays side... fox is part of news corp.. as you know... news corp owns myspace.com.. popular website with millions of users registered... they will promote Blu-ray titles to the fullest.. and people will buy it.. just like people bought the helio phone

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I think it's a bit of a stretch to predict that the myspace crowd will have a significant effect on who wins the high-def format war.

BR has flaws and has messed up alot,HDVD seems to not have made that many mistakes,however its not like the apparent loser has not the industry befor,frankly I dont care who wins get it over with and make it cheaper :P

AMEN Zippy!

Blackjax
""BR has flaws and has messed up alot,HDVD seems to not have made that many mistakes,however its not like the apparent loser has not won the industry befor,frankly I dont care who wins get it over with and make it cheaper :P""


mew thinks I need a new sig
BWWWAAIIINNNsssss!!!!
wains and planes mofoers I need brains (am I to late to do the snakes n the plane skit? :P)

or a new name
=>>=
...zippy the zombie kitty....mew

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even with a million PS3s out there and a supposed movie disc selling lead (at least some of the time) the sales are nothing to be writing home about.

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something that'll be interesting to see and not yet mentioned is how the sales gap is going to widen or shrink, once sony does its euro ps3 launch. that is as i said before another 1 million Blu-ray players so my guess would be it'll widen the gap. those ratios right now of 2 to 1 and 3 to 1, could very easily be 3 to 1 and 4 to 1 respectively.

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Until things really gear up nothing is decided.

That will happen when people start to buy the cheap players in the shopping malls, at your Walmarts and Asdas for $200/£100......which is where HD-DVD has this covered and Blu-ray absolutely does not.

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do you think the majority of people who shop at Walmart are the informed tech savy group? do most even own hi-def sets to watch the movies on? Do you really think every day citizens who aren't too concerned about these new formats are going to buy these players as they stroll on by? are the majority of people really waiting for HD-DVD players to come down in price so they can get'm, maybe the addon for the 360? certainly the answers are NO. people who do the majority of their shopping at Walmarts do it so for a very strong reason(yeah i've shopped there). yes im sure people with 6 figure incomes have or do shop there, but as a whole the majority of people who shop at Walmart come from the lower end of the income totem pole. surely people who want the player and have been looking or waiting for one may go there, but i don't think that just because Walmart has them, everyone is going to buy'm or that they'll sell like hotcakes. 200 bucks for a movie player is quite a bit of money for people. i just don't think the regular walmart shoppers are really willing and looking to drop a few hundred bucks on a movie player. if it was say Best Buy, well you may have a stronger point.

by april of 07 there will already be close to 2.5 million (if not more) Blu-ray players in people's homes. the same figure was mentioned above on HD-DVD sales for '07. the only problem is april isn't even the half way point for the new year, so again its not unlikely that 2.5million won't be say 6 million by years end for Blu-ray players. again almost that same 2 to 1 ratio in hardware that we see now(2.5 + .3 =2.8). i still don't see how Blu-ray is going to be in a worse situation than HD-DVD especially with the imminent euro release, and that potential increase in the sales gap i mentioned earlier.

I've been saying the same thing HADE but they still fight on knowing that HD-DVD have a massive hill to climb.360 HD-DVD add-on is very visible in stores.I work at BB and i'm telling the Add-on we have in our store alone is double digits.We ship some back to the warehouse in Staunton,VA two week ago because your only can have so much inventory.People do ask about the Wii alot more than the PS3 but we do sale PS3 like 4 or 5 a week.

For as long as you think this fight is determined by a short-term ratio or gap between HD-DVD and Blu-ray you're missing the point.

It's about breaking into the mainstream, something both formats have yet to do.

That's where the HD-DVD display & stand at Walmart/Asda showing off the new but inexpensive version of HD-DVD (which is a name they'll recognise and understand) comes in.
Especially when people realise they already have some of the movies in HD-DVD already on their Universal combi DVD discs.

Till then this is mostly merely the transparent fanboy shilling and, laughably, talking up a 'victory' from the 'blu-ray Bobs' and what boils down to little more than '2 bald men fighting over a comb'.

Like I said, both high def formats sell in only the thousands, SD DVD still sells in the multi-millions.

Ignore this truth if you like.

lxfactor: "hd-dvd was cracked way before just not avalible on bittorrent" No blue ray and hd braking before the simultanious crack last month with backuphddvd and backupbluraydvd were with analog hole exploits and this affected both formats at the eact same time as well. lxfactor: "i doubt you will download a 22gb movie anyways" You are kidding right? after nine years since sd dvd took off the increase in size is about 4 to 5 fold. consumer broadbands already makes a 22gb film pretty much a one day to overnight thing at current sppeds, never mind the doubling that is occuring every year or so. (my dsl has doubled in speed at same price ever year last three years). Fact is that downloading of a 22gb blu ray or hd film is about three times FASTER than Netflix or blockbuster mail programs!

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For as long as you think this fight is determined by a short-term ratio or gap between HD-DVD and Blu-ray you're missing the point.

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It not that we are claiming victory Hughjars its that HD-DVD launched before Blu-ray & also have a big price point on Blu-ray.That hasn't helped at all for HD-DVD like i said a month ago Toshiba hasn't market the HD-DVD very well.Why in stores like BB & CC you can find them on the self most of the time.I can honestly tell you at the BB store i work at we have one HD-DVD hookup to a LCD(Mitsubishi WD-52631 52" DLP Projection) TV that in the backrow,compared to 4 set that has Blu-ray hooked up to 2 Sony & 2 Samsung.Plus that double format disc has some HD-DVD owner's upset because HD-DVD is forceing you to buy there combo disc at 30.00 bucks.

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It not that we are claiming victory Hughjars its that HD-DVD launched before Blu-ray & also have a big price point on Blu-ray.That hasn't helped at all for HD-DVD like i said a month ago

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- A 5:1 better stand-alone sales record for HD-DVD shows they are at least doing that much better than the Blu-ray stand-alones.

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I can honestly tell you at the BB store i work at we have one HD-DVD hookup to a LCD(Mitsubishi WD-52631 52" DLP Projection) TV that in the backrow

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- Typical underhand tactics.....but given the sales numbers Blu-ray products are showing even that isn't working.

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compared to 4 set that has Blu-ray hooked up to 2 Sony & 2 Samsung.

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- Yeah, and then the punter spots the price tag for the Blu-ray stuff and just keeps on walking away.
Obviously.
As the abysmal sales numbers of the Blu-ray stand-alones shows, quite clearly.

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Plus that double format disc has some HD-DVD owner's upset because HD-DVD is forceing you to buy there combo disc at 30.00 bucks.

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- BS
(and such spectacular damned cheek coming from the resident Sony shill to dare to talk about people beiong 'forced' into anything, considering).

You're exposed as a liar right here and now.

You're just yet another in a long line of lying Sony/Blu-ray shills, BobbyBlu.
Spouting feeble propaganda and outright lies.

I knew you'd overdo it at some point and here we are, liar.

The SD DVD/HD-DVD combo disc isn't even out yet.

It launches on Feb 6th 2006,
so how can there have been any comment on it's list price already......which, by the way, offers SD DVD capability as well as HD-DVD for the same or even a slightly lower price as a Blu-ray only disc?

The people are complaining about paying the same price for their HD-DVD and getting additonal features are they?!

I think not.

.....or is your lie that a SD DVD only version isn't available at the usual cheaper price?
(which is not true either)

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Universal today announced that it will release the critically acclaimed 'Hollywoodland' as an HD DVD/DVD combo release on February 6, 2007.

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http://www.highdefdigest.com/tags/show/Universal
It's $27.95 at Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A1...20070212&page=1

This is a price point in line with Blu-ray releases
Windtalkers $27.95 (note the regular retail price of $39.98)
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0...SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
Hannibal $27.95 (also down from $39.98)
http://www.amazon.com/Hannibal-Blu-Ray/d...1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd
The Usual Suspects $27.98 (down from $39.98)
http://www.amazon.com/The-Usual-Suspects...1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd

You claim to work at Best Buy?
Funny how you missed their Blu-ray pricing for recent Blu-ray releases is $39.98.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?...9&type=category

In other words the same sort of level of pricing but with the combo disc you get all the high def features of HD-DVD and you get a SD DVD copy too.

.....and as production gears up prices will fall, as always.

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I knew you'd overdo it at some point and here we are, liar.The SD DVD/HD-DVD combo disc isn't even out yet.

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Actually SD DVD/HD DVD Combo discs have been available for quite some time. Examples:

Rumor Has It - released May 9, 2006
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/rumorhasit.html

Firewall - released June 6, 2006
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/firewall.html

Kiss Kiss Bang Bang - released June 20, 2006
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/kisskissbangbang.html

ATL - released July 18, 2006
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/atl.html

Animal House - released August 15, 2006
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/nationallampoonsanimalhouse.html

Unleashed - released August 15, 2006
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/unleashed.html

The Lake House - released September 26, 2006
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/lakehouse.html

Superman Returns - released Novemebr 28, 2006
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/supermanreturns.html

and others.

@ BobbyBlu, No wonder you say the BS you say! You work for Bestbuy and most of the people that work there don't know ISH!! At least all of the employees I met. :)

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I knew you'd overdo it at some point and here we are, liar.

The SD DVD/HD-DVD combo disc isn't even out yet.

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If your going to support something at lease know what your talking about.Everything you have said is not creditable you didn't even know that the combo disc was even out.

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@ BobbyBlu, No wonder you say the BS you say! You work for Bestbuy and most of the people that work there don't know ISH!! At least all of the employees I met. :)

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I don't disagree with that one bit alot of people at BB don't know what they are talking about.But some do,audio & video is my passion so i know what i'm talking about when it come to dealing with a customer.See Hughjars set behind a PC and search links for answers i deal with well informed customer & vendors everyday.Do that mean i know everything No but i try to say informed to anything eletronic.

Personally, I don't care one way or the other about the HD formats since I plan on waiting until there is a clear cut winner or good, cheap dual format players, but if I had to bet on a winner, I would probably pick BlueRay, right now, this seems like the only place I ever hear about HD-DVD, but I see the BlueRay symbol more and more now in electronics stores and in advertisements, which is what the average person is probably seeing, which I think is the point Hade and Bobby are making as well. Anyways, just my 2 cents.

We/you were talking about the Universal discs.

You lied.

You got busted.

Shill.

Originally posted by hughjars:

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We/you were talking about the Universal discs.

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Unleashed and Animal House, both released August of '06 are from Universal. See my post above.

i think BLUERAY is more expensive than HD DVD and for that reson alon i think HD will win the formate war.and there are a lot of hollywood turning from BR to HD

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Unleashed and Animal House, both released August of '06 are from Universal. See my post above.

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- My understanding was that it was something brand new, are the existing ones flippers?

In any event he's still full of BS.

He's trying to claim that HD-DVD buyers are complaining that their combi discs are 'forcing' SD DVD recordings on them "at $30".

(Even though they retail for the same money, if not slightly less, than any regular Blu-ray or HD-DVD disc.)

BS.

That's a lie.......and given the retail prices it doesn't even make any sense (people complaining about extra features or facilities they aren't paying any extra for, yeah right, I bet that happens all the time.
It's intelligence insulting - as all that viral marketing shilling is,
it's all such tedious & obvious BS)

The guys clearly a shill and a paid to shill at BB at that
(if that part is true).

There's no more to this than that.

Busted.

Think up a new handle and try again, that one just lost all credibility here, shill.

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My understanding was that it was something brand new, are the existing ones flippers?

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You understood wrong. The combo discs are nothing new like I listed in my post above. They are not "flippers" since you don't have to turn the disc over to watch the whole movie. The HD-DVD is on one side and the SD DVD is on the other - no turning over needed.

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He's trying to claim that HD-DVD buyers are complaining that their combi discs are 'forcing' SD DVD recordings on them "at $30".

---

Here's a poll that shows that 2/3's of HD-DVD owners don't like combo discs:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?...lts&pollid=3706

More debate on avsforums about this combo issue:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773187

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=777893

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=772703

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=725062

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=760653

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=724737

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=730133

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705917

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=716544

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=703041

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The HD-DVD is on one side and the SD DVD is on the other - no turning over needed.

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- Ah, as I thought, they are flippers.

Quote:

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Here's a poll that shows that 2/3's of HD-DVD owners don't like combo discs

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- I don't know where you got 2/3rd from.

Most of the comment I saw was favourable and that which wasn't wanted no price premium.....which I showed was not the case earlier.

Features for no extra.

I simply don't believe claims that people are complaining about that.

It's obvious BS from the resident BS-artist and obvious shill.

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Ah, as I thought, they are flippers.

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Flipper means you have to turn them over to watch the whole movie.You don't need to for combo discs.

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I don't know where you got 2/3rd from.

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In this poll 66 percent or two thirds of respondents don't like the combo format. Didn't you open the link? If you read all the avsforum links you'll see that not everyone is embracing the combo format.

Thank you Error5 some people don't know the truth if it smack them in the face.

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Ah, as I thought, they are flippers.

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LOL...You are really misinformed this is what happen when you just read links & don't own any of the products.I'm still waiting on you to apologize.

Quote:

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We/you were talking about the Universal discs

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Your putting words in my mouth i never said Universal disc i said combo disc.

Plus that double format disc has some HD-DVD owner's upset because HD-DVD is forceing you to buy there combo disc at 30.00 bucks.


I think its a damm good idea for HD-DVD to make the combo disc.Really this could curve the numbers in there favor because you will have it in HighDef when you ready to upgrade to HighDef and don't have to buy it again but like i said the price point not going to help that at all.I wish Blu-ray would do this.

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Your putting words in my mouth i never said Universal disc i said combo disc.

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- As usual you try to wriggle out of it.

You were responding to my comment with an attempt to spin some anti-HD-DVD line.

My original comment was "Especially when people realise they already have some of the movies in HD-DVD already on their Universal combi DVD discs"

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Plus that double format disc has some HD-DVD owner's upset because HD-DVD is forceing you to buy there combo disc at 30.00 bucks.

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- You're still trying to lie about the truth of this.

Talking of those links and the truth, you missed this comment -

"Are Combo discs more expensive than regular HD-DVD ??"

"Yes but only barely so as long as you don't purchase them from BB"

Perhaps that's why you can claim to have heard this complaint, it's about BB and not combi discs really.

Cos as I showed before, compared to regular HD-DVD or some Blu-ray releases there is no cost differential.

......and a 'flipper disc' here is not one that 'needs to be turned over to continue playing' anything.
It's merely a disc that gets turned over to it's other side for use.

You'll get no apology from me for calling you out on what you so clearly are BloobyBlu.

You're simply only ever here to talk up PS3 & Blu-ray any way you can and to diss HD-DVD as often as possible (although in your last comment you toned it down a bit on the combi discs cos even you must have twigged it's getting ridicuous).

You're a paid shill, spreading as much FUD as you can and soft-soaping any bad tales you can; plain and simple.

I wonder if you've deluded yourself that by talking up the PS3 & Blu-ray here you might sell a couple more and gain commission from the sales?

Nevermind the DRM, eh?

I never said anything about HD-DVD combo disc cost more than a Blu-ray that not even the topic we are talking about here.HD-DVD combo disc cost more than a basic HD-DVD disc by itself.That why people feel they are going to be forced to pay for both and not have a choice to which format they want because HD-DVD said that they was going to do all the movie's in the future as a combo disc.See i like Sony but went i feel they wrong i will bash them to no end.Your just a anti-Sony fan that looked for a reason to bash them,I give credit went credit due but you don't find me on here bashing stuff only the misleading info people provide to try to curve from the truth because one person has hate for a company.This whole HD-DVD vs Blu-ray war stuff is dumb people argue about two disc that are media that hold just about the same info the arguement should be about the content that is put onto that disc and the major company's that droping ton of money in to that format.

Originally posted by BobbyBlu:

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I never said anything about HD-DVD combo disc cost more than a Blu-ray that not even the topic we are talking about here.HD-DVD combo disc cost more than a basic HD-DVD disc by itself.

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- We've already seen that is not true, shill.

Quote:

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See i like Sony

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- You don't say.

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Your just a anti-Sony fan

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- Get over yourself.

I am not 'pro' or 'anti' any corporation.

I am anti CE systems that rob their owners of actual ownership.

Which is what Blu-ray is and what it does.

PS3 is intended to make that happen, it is part of the same idiotic philosophy.

You can keep your insane and desperately sad notions of 'love' or 'hate' for a foreign multinational corporation to yourself.

Back to topic....

This announcement from the HD DVD Promotion Group won't help swing the momentum over to their side:

No Jaws, Jurassic Park and ET on HD DVD

http://www.hddvdprg.com/eng/list.html

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The inclusion in the January 29 update of our "Coming Soon List" of three Steven Spielberg classics was an error on our part. The HD DVD Promotion Group expresses sincere apologies to Steven Spielberg, Universal Studios Home Entertainment and HD DVD fans for this mistake.

---

Universal management is going through a shake-up. The chief officer is being replaced.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-...l=la-home-local

It is the president of Universal Home Entertainment, a division of Universal Pictures, that is taking the hard line of being HD-DVD exclusive. But he is only the president and has to report to the new chief officer. It looks more and more likely that Universal will go at least dual format, maybe this year. As it is, Warner now has said they will be re-releasing titles in Blu-ray that were exclusively HD-DVD last year. Blu-ray has several studios that are Blu-ray exclusive and with Paramount, Warner and New Line releasing titles in both formats, it is Blu-ray that has about a 90% choice of all titles with only about the 10% HD-DVD exclusive titles not available. Most of these are Universal. But Universal is now only releasing mostly old movies and the new releases are slowing down, while the Blu-ray titles are really starting to grow and should start sky-rocketing by this summer with some huge Blu-ray only titles. Just look at http://www.thedvdwars.com and the graphs have crossed over, almost all Blu-ray as far as sales rankings. The only line where HD-DVD is ahead of Blu-ray is titles in stock but that seems to indicate Amazon is not able to keep as much Blu-ray in stock as HD-DVD. It has been a dramatic turning of the tables over just a few weeks. Imagine what it will be like in a few months.

Yawn, what a crock - and it's such ancient spin.

The Blu-ray Bobs have been flogging that one since before CES.

Then Universal went and announced 100 new HD-DVD titles and not a single glimmer of Blu-ray support.

I've been an HD DVD consumer since practically day 1 with my HD-A1 player. I must say that the recent performance of the HD-DVD group with respect to new releases and poor sales has me disappointed. They knew they had the momentum coming into the holiday season and it seems that they just gave up. I know they have promised more releases this year but it could be too little too late considering the BluRay juggernaut that's coming. Now I've covered my bases with a PS3 since some movies I want to see are not coming out on HD DVD.

Talking of combos - Universal says that 90% of their releases will be combo discs:

http://dvd.themanroom.com/dvd-newsview.php?id=447

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Universal has issued a press release affirming their support for Toshiba's high definition format pledging more than 100 new film and TV titles will be available throughout this year. Additionally, over 90% of the upcoming titles will be released as Combo Format DVD/HD DVD discs, no doubt a move to lure DVD buyers into taking the high-def plunge.

---

Quote:

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I've been an HD DVD consumer since practically day 1 with my HD-A1 player. I must say that the recent performance of the HD-DVD group with respect to new releases and poor sales has me disappointed. They knew they had the momentum coming into the holiday season and it seems that they just gave up. I know they have promised more releases this year but it could be too little too late considering the BluRay juggernaut that's coming. Now I've covered my bases with a PS3 since some movies I want to see are not coming out on HD DVD.

Talking of combos - Universal says that 90% of their releases will be combo discs:

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I remember back when you told everyone that you had just got a HD-DVD player it was you & dblbogey7.Whenever diabolos,dblbogey7,& you speak i listen because you guys are well informed and not going to shoot people BS on this site nor will you mislead people on here.

it maybe true that there are not not many Blu-ray readers/burners being bought now, but, when they become more readily available, the price will drop. also, Blu-ray does have the advantage of holding more data than HD-DVD. because of the capacity gap, i think more people will buy Blu-ray discs.

also, computer manufacturers are probably betting on this, hence why they are choosing Blu-ray. for me, personally, I don't care about watching a movie in high def. at that resolution, graphic artifacts start to be noticeable. and I don't mind watching a regular dvd on my tv. it looks good enough for me.

the only thing i care about is being able to burn more data onto a disk. just as a fyi, I have 150 dvds full of videos that I can only watch on my computer. and high def on my computer won't impress anyone :D

Thank you guys so much for drowning HughJars in logic. He shot his mouth off so much (made me want to plug my ears) calling people liars when he himself was one. Sorry guy you have now been slapped with the ignorant fanboy bat. No matter what happens you will follow HD-DVD even if they stopped selling them you would continue to say its going to win. I just wanted to congratulate the winners of the conversation, all those in opposition to HughJars.

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the price will drop. also, Blu-ray does have the advantage of holding more data than HD-DVD. because of the capacity gap, i think more people will buy Blu-ray discs.

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- Well as with all Blu-ray stuff it starts from so much higher a price that it's never going to match HD-DVD any time soon.
The Blu-ray camp talk about lower prices in 3 years.

You're also wrong about capacity.

The current tech is for 50gb Blu-ray and 51gb HD-DVD, so it's HD-DVD that actually has the lead.
Rumours of 100gb and 200gb discs coming to the market at some point in the future remain just that.
There is also no proof the current players and burners will work with those discs.

Like I said, there are currently 4 different Blu-ray specs. They hope to finalise and freeze on a final spec at the end of this year.

You'll just have to hope you haven't bought a 1st or 2nd gen machine that won't be left behind.

Ludikhris, hilarious, as always. :P

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You'll just have to hope you haven't bought a 1st or 2nd gen machine that won't be left behind.

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The same goes for HD-DVD as current players can't play the 51 GB discs. It's not part of current HD DVD specs.

[quoteThe same goes for HD-DVD as current players can't play the 51 GB discs. It's not part of current HD DVD specs.[/quote] - Actually you are completely wrong.

Triple layer was part of the original spec of both Blu-ray and HD-DVD.

(which is something for those looking forward to the 4 or more layered 100gb-200gb Blu-ray discs, they most defintely are not part of the original spec.

Quote:

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Toshiba Unsure Whether 51 GB HD DVD Works in Existing Players
By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews
January 17, 2007, 11:54 AM

A spokesperson for Toshiba of America told BetaNews late yesterday that the company is still researching whether a new, three-layer HD DVD disc format it may propose -- the existence of which was carefully leaked at last week's CES -- will work in the first generation on HD DVD players, including its own.

"Since the disc is not standardized yet," the spokesperson told BetaNews, "we are researching whether it is applicable to the current HD DVD players."

Toshiba representatives apparently handed out press releases to a few journalists last week who probably noticed a "51 GB" label on some of its display discs, and asked what it meant. Independent journalist Henning Molbaek of DVDTown.com was one of them, publishing as soon as January 9 what many sources were only learning a whole week later.

The capability for HD DVD -- as well as Blu-ray -- to implement three layers on one side has been written into the specifications since the format's inception.

But the fact that each layer is limited to 17 GB, rather than the 25 GB per layer that's possible with dual-layer blue-laser discs, may be an indication that a three-layer format such as the one Warner Bros. patented last year may not have been feasible with older or existing blue-laser players after all.

As it turned out, the company introduced a double-decker sandwich format at CES instead, under the Total HD trademark.

It's unclear whether Warner will pursue its three-layer, single-sided combo format, though the likelihood now is fairly low.

---

http://www.betanews.com/article/Toshiba_...yers/1169052893

Actually I'm correct. The specs are straight from the from the DVD forum white paper on HD-DVD:

http://www.dvdforum.org/images/Forum_HD_DVD_Universal_24.pdf

There is no mention of triple layer 51 gig discs. This is why current players can't play 51 gig discs.

Originally posted by error5:

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Actually I'm correct. The specs are straight from the from the DVD forum white paper on HD-DVD: (see link)

There is no mention of triple layer 51 gig discs. This is why current players can't play 51 gig discs.

---

You're now reduced to quibbling.

First of all that link is not the complete technical spec and secondly triple layers were part of the original spec.

Quote:

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The capability for HD DVD -- as well as Blu-ray -- to implement three layers on one side has been written into the specifications since the format's inception.

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http://www.betanews.com/article/Toshiba_...yers/1169052893

Originally it was a 45gb triple layer disc.

They are now working on ensuring that the 51gb triple layer disc will work just as easily, that is all.

But interesting attempt to divert attention from anyone telling the truth about all the fantasy & cr@p talked about 'the 100gb & 200gb discs and their supposed amazing untility' to existing Blu-ray hardware & owners.

Actually error5 is correct. A 51 Gig triple layer disc is "off spec." Current HD DVD's are 15 Gig per layer so in order to fit 51 Gigs in 3 layers each layer should have 17 gigs. Will the discs be physically different from the ones they have now? If so then current drives will probably need to be replaced to handle the new physical characteristics of the discs. A firmware update probably wouldn't do and current owners of first and second gen players (like myself) would need to upgrade.

I stand corrected. If HD-DVD can support up to 51gigs, then I would support that in a snap. The larger the capacity, the happier I'll be.

however, if the Blu-ray spec does allow for triple (or even quadruple) layers, well, then looks like Blu-ray is the best. anyword on the price of a triple layer HD-DVD burner? shoot, for that matter, has anyone been able to find a dual layer Blu-ray burner?

also, (probably my dumbness here) where did you see that HD-DVD capacity will get to 100gig or even 200gig? I tried a google search, and, well, found nothing :-(

Ludikhris
because of hughhjars, I've learned a lot, so,I don't mind his remarks. he IS right about Blu-ray...the specs haven't been finalized yet, so if I were to go buy a new Blu-ray burner...well i'd f-ed when the specs change.

Just to add to this triple layer discussion:

TL45 for HD DVD has not been approved as a spec by the DVD Forum (which has the final say in these things.) Although it has been replicator verified since 2005 there has just been no need for it. Also current players are known to be able to support it from what I've read. Current use of the VC-1 codec has made the DL30 discs more than adequate for practically all releases. Even King Kong which runs for more than 3 hours fits in a DL30 with no compromise in video quality. Toshiba was supposed to submit this spec for approval this year but...

TL51 comes along and of course they had to table TL45. I've also read that Toshiba was supposed to submit this spec for approval later this year so neither TL spec is in the official HD DVD spec list since neither has been approved by the DVD Forum.

The other issue is that TL51 is supposed to be 1.5x speed so the electronics current players may not be able to cope with the increased data rate.

Bottom line is - triple layer discs for both HD DVD and BluRay are mostly vaporware for now.

Originally posted by kearney:

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however, if the Blu-ray spec does allow for triple (or even quadruple) layers, well, then looks like Blu-ray is the best.

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- Well as I keep saying a theoretical capacity is one thing, an affordable reliable product in the market-place is quite another.

They are currently subsidising Blu-ray media heavily
(check out the Vivid comments about Blu-ray discs being 3 to 4 times the cost of authoring and producing compared to HD-DVD).

It took them ages to even get dual layer Blu-ray working, God knows how much the media would really cost without the subsidy ....it's not exactly 'cheap' now.
(all those Blu-ray fanboys really ought to thank HD-DVD, without it you'd have had nothing but cr@ppy MPEG2 releases on 25gb discs at God only knows what price)


I suspect 100gb & 200gb discs will never be anything more than extremely expensive low-volume production 'professional use only' archiving media only usable with accompanying low-volume production and extremely expensive 'professional use only' hardware.

Quote:

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anyword on the price of a triple layer HD-DVD burner? shoot, for that matter, has anyone been able to find a dual layer Blu-ray burner?

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- HD-DVD burners have been in laptops for a little while (its how come you can find blank media now).

The Toshiba launches it's first PC burner in march IIRC, others are expected to follow (NEC has been demo'ing one for over 2yrs).
We await the final specs.

It's perfectly possible TL is never used for retail movie media (because the VC-1 codec is so good and the additional space is never needed) but is confined to an option for PC burners (which will, I hope, operate with stand-alones).

TL HD-DVD is ready to go when they need it, the thing is that as far as retail movie discs go they simply don't see the need right now, they are fitting excellent SQ & PQ on 30gbs.

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where did you see that HD-DVD capacity will get to 100gig or even 200gig? I tried a google search, and, well, found nothing

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- Did I mistype?
If so apologies, it should have read Blu-ray.
It has supposedly been a great benefit for Blu-ray that there is a theoretical possibility of getting 100gb & 200gb discs.

Quote:

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because of hughhjars, I've learned a lot, so,I don't mind his remarks. he IS right about Blu-ray...the specs haven't been finalized yet, so if I were to go buy a new Blu-ray burner...well i'd f-ed when the specs change.

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- Thank you.

It's nice to see someone doesn't prefer to write everything I've posted as mere opinion.

Sadly it has long been the case (even here) that if you refuse to back one side in this debate or challenge the stream of FUD and wildly exaggerated claims
(which, let's be honest, is invariably coming from one side alone in this)
and you stick to telling the factual truth about what's really happening you just get abused for 'loving' and 'hating' one side or other.

(which IMO is a pathetic, totally weird, surreal and frankly ill concept when applied to multi-national CE corporations)

Quote:

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Thank you guys so much for drowning HughJars in logic. He shot his mouth off so much (made me want to plug my ears) calling people liars when he himself was one

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Just bring truth to the misinformed.

Sorry to puncture some people's delusions but here is the truth (like I said, 2 bald men and that comb) -
realise that sales of both Blu-ray & HD-DVD combined are but a fraction of UMD-Video - a failed format.

The resident shill talking about 'truth' and people being 'Misinformed' unbe-F**king-lievable.