AfterDawn: Tech news

War. What is it good for?

Written by Jari Ketola @ 18 Mar 2003 1:06 User comments (80)

War. What is it good for? Absolutely nothing.
This is war:
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/thisiswar/

It's not too late to act.

"I became a fucking animal. I started fucking putting fucking heads on poles. Leaving fucking notes for the motherfuckers. Digging up fucking graves. I didn't give a fuck anymore. Y'know, I wanted—. They wanted a fucking hero, so I gave it to them. They wanted fucking body count, so I gave them body count."

—unnamed Vietnam Veteran, quoted in Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of Character (New York, 1994). Reprinted in An Intimate History of Killing.

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80 user comments

118.3.2003 3:51

the disision to go to war is not to be taken lightly. the death of one inocent only strenghtens the idea that we as a nation are barberic and should only presue peaceful indeveres. if Bush waits untill the stock markets close on friday to engage the Iraqies then it will prove to the world its all about the "money". if we do as he said liberate the country of Iraq from opression then we as a nation have forced our beliefs on yet another nation to watch them destroy them selves. War will come but at what price ? our economy suffered enough from 911 now we are fighting again in the name of freedom. I support the men and women of our armed forces but not the cause. if we take the land plant a flag and make it the 51st state or why bother the cost would better be spent on sercurity of the USA..... if we must bomb someone why arnt we going after the country where the terrosites came from....? why pick on someone who dosnt presnt a threat as large as North Korea? the world is watching as march turns to spring and all is renewed... the cold hard winter ,with increases of oil prices came and our government needs to justify the increases. So we "wag the dog" if we took the attack on the chin and showed the world that we were better then that then we would have the right to tell others to stop fighting.... but no we propetcuate the anger and lash out at anyone who is diffrent... turn inword and check who is in charge . At this point yes everyone wants the chance for the "eye for an eye" bit but why if someone kills another we answer that with bad boboo now we kill you who ever made us in charge of life and death???????

218.3.2003 4:49

America are only interested in peace if it suits them, this is why bush is so determined for war, because peace with sadam wouldnt be in americas interest. they pick on the iraqis while north korea quite clearly has a nuclear program and israel possess lethal weapons aswell. ive no problem with american people, i know a few and they are decent people. One thing i noticed however is that the entire bush administration come from a money background so you really have to question democracy. 9/11 was evil no doubt about it but why have al queda suddenly come in second to iraq?? lets not forget who trained and funded bin laden, the good old cia gave him his training that he used to mastermind 9/11. Al queda aims are coming, why do you think they didnt hit power plants or anything?? quite simple, they wanted to show the world the aggression of america which is showing clearly! america is showing signs of not caring what the rest of the world thinks and it will backfire again and again until someone finally gets the message that one country cant bully another (or many others) without consequenses. anyway enough about bush and the lovely america, what about tony blair?? wtf is he doing?? is he kissing america's ass or is he just stupid?? he has his country in fear now and despite british public opinion, he still prepares for war! I dont know what he is trying to prove, perhaps he wants the world to fear britain once again?? well all it will lead to is hatred of britain like hatred of america. Now lets take a look at sadam, pure evil defiant dictator who gased his own people and had secret weapons programs for years. Do iraqi people really want him there?? cause remeber, if he left iraq, war wouldnt happen but he wants war thats why he'll stay. never mind that patriotic crap you hear about him, he knows he will die this time but he doesnt care because all he knows is voilence and seems to have a taste for it so the idea of a wide spread war sounds good to him! Obviously the world would be better off without him so the quicker he is killed the better! my question is, what do america and britain have in mind when they are finished iraq??? i dont believe they are capable of winning war after war!!

318.3.2003 7:32

Hey Dela, What will you say when Sadam uses nerve gas or biological weapons against US troops (and his own people)? Will that prove Bushes point? France already said thay will join America when that happens (not that Americans need it)...

418.3.2003 7:43

hey like i already said he is an evil man!! It doesnt matter what point america are trying to make, my point is that america seem to think they can go ahead with anything they want and no-one can stop them anymore and that aint true!!

518.3.2003 8:58

I am away at the moment in a neutral country, Switzerland, although even here people are worried about the consequences, not only Internationally, but also at home, they consider they could be a target. If a country like this is worried, we should all be worried. Does this legitimise war? I can't offer you my opinion, but let's not forget that we are in the luxurious position of not actually having to do anything. I would love to see the reactions if we don't do anything and something happens to one of our countries. Of course everyone will say, well why didn't you do anything. I am not condoning war, just pointing out that it is easy for us to sit in judgement when we don't have the weight of the world, or at least our own countries resting on our shoulders. Of course the French will veto it, but don't think for one second that Mr Chirac is doing it for some common good. The French will veto just about anything the English come up with (if you don't belive me, just look at the history, including not wanting to do anything about Hitler as well as vetoing our introduction to the European Community poignantly 30 years ago) They of course welcome us getting them out of a mess and I am not surprised that they would help the Americans and British in the event of a chemical or biological attack, they, of course, along with the Americans and British although much more recently supplied much of what we are trying to get rid of, so probably have good experience. I am sure that the largest oil contract in history between TotalFinaElf and the Iraqis doesn't keep Mr Chirac up at night either. So this is not a show of support for war, but as war is inevitable, we might as well hope it is short and with few casualties on both sides. Paul


I'm back...
...can't you smell the fear?

618.3.2003 9:02

Dela it may be true and sad that we the americans have dictated our will on a poor underdeveloped nation or there soon but what if we hadnt in the first place lets see Iraq would have kewait and maybe more, we know Sadam likes to keep population control with musturd gas on his own people, and he would have more control then ever ..... hey whos to say we'll get him anyway I dont see Osama Bin Laddan under arrest. really who knows the chinese could be next with this new virus they let lose ... or was it someone else testing stuff over sea's befor they use it on France Russia or Germany,or North Korea?

718.3.2003 10:49

The world is fucked up basically, every country seems to be a suspect for everything. If i were bush i would have aimed a missile right at saddam's ass the moment he rejected the 48 hours to leave! kill him and just forget him lol. One thing i would just like to say is, why are you so afraid?? ok ye, there are a lot of whachos in the world and a lot of anti american hatred but everything frightens ye! I was watching an american news channel and there they were pumping their viewers with attack possibilitys. You need to calm down over there, visit ireland for a while and kick back or something!! I understand why people would be afraid after 9/11 and then the antrax crap but if you are showing it all over the tv then the terrorists are winning. didnt they say they wanted to strike fear in american hearts??

818.3.2003 12:24
T2K
Inactive

bush announced that sadam and his brothers have 48 hours to leave the country,what do you think is going to happen next.


T2K

918.3.2003 12:24
T2K
Inactive

yesterday bush announced that sadam and his brothers have 48 hours to leave the country,what do you think is going to happen next.


T2K

1018.3.2003 12:26
T2K
Inactive

oops shouldnt of click it twice, sory


T2K

1118.3.2003 14:01
alntht
Inactive

I for one am glad to see that we have stepped up and are doing what is needed to get done. We have to remember that Saddam has had plenty of time to do what needed to be done (12 years) to avoid war. We know that he had weapons of mass destruction 12 years ago, and continues to have them to this day. Even the inspectors have said that. Everything that goes on in Iraq is documented, and that's proven, but no documentation is present for the destruction of his WMDs. He is a mad and evil man, and will strike us at his first opportunity. I think the sad thing would be for thousands of Americans to die, knowing that this war could have stopped it, but we didn't because we wanted to save face to the French and others. Diplomacy was given many many chances, and Saddam refused them all.

1218.3.2003 15:28

U.S. has weapons of mass destruction, why U.S. shouldn't be the target of "pre-emptive strike". Who gave the U.S. and the UK the rights to act as a world police without the UN authorization? I have served in military, so don't take me wrong. I hate war, I hate killing, I hate the loss of human lives. Only war that is ever justified is a war to defend your own country when your country is already under direct attack and has been invaded to by the third party. Attack war is always a war crime and a crime against humanity. Always, whatever your reasoning is.


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Webmaster
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1318.3.2003 15:53

Hey TOO ALL U SIMPLETONS OUT THERE. We are the worlds only SUPER-HYPER-POWER. And it about time we started acting like it DAMMIT! I am tired of all the appeasement past administrations have been committing and having to apologize for shit that isnt our fault. GO BUSH!!!!!!!! BUSH FOR PRES 2004!!!!!!!!


APBT FOREVER...

1418.3.2003 17:16
alntht
Inactive

Whatever WMDs the United States has, it's not threatening to terrorize another country with them. Don't think that Saddam will be happy just using his weapons in war. If he had the oportunity, he would sell, if not give, his chemical and biological weapons to any terrorist organization that promised to use them against us. We know now that they can get within the United States borders, it's time to act in self defense before chemical or biological weapons are loosed in NY or LA or Dallas or Anywhere, USA. I wouldn't want to be the one to tell a childs mother in any state that we could have stopped the horrible death her child suffered, but didn't because we were to weak willed when we knew that we could stop them.

1518.3.2003 17:20
alntht
Inactive

And by the way, it's amazing how much the countries like us when we are giving them food or money or any other help, but when we want to do something for ouselves it's a terrible thing. Tell me what two powers saved Europe from Hitler. France..no..USA and England. I have the utmost respect for the French Underground, but the country as a whole buckled at Hitlers feet. I think we have the right to do what is in our best interest.

1618.3.2003 17:26

I am an American! I hope we kick ass! I'm tired of Americans getting killed helping other countries who can't wipe their ass. There have been many places we should never have gone. We should have stayed home and watched what happen to some piece of crap country on the news, but no, they cried and wants America to help and we do and then get kicked in the ass for it or murdered. As for Iraq, those rats that live there let all this happen to them, and I don't feel sorry for them. But there are major dangers and they have to be exterminated, and if it takes us to do it, oh well. I'd rather get them before they come to get us again. And for the French, well ?!?>! and Dela, that goes for you to!!! And since so many of countries of the world hate us, don't f---ing call us if you have a problem. WE AIN'T HOME!!!

1718.3.2003 22:49

Elayne: This is exactly the respons that I expected to hear from an American. Not thinking of all the innocent people that live in Irak and live in an enviroment year after year that is not normal to live in ! Lets say it's the opposite way of living in a normal country...no freedom of speaking, not living a live you want to. If you do you will get shot. Most of the people there (even the Iraq people all over the world) want to get rid of Saddam ! The prob is that they can't do this themselves, unfortunately because that's the best way to get rid of him without the world (or just the USA as you say) have to attack him. I agree he has to be eliminated but the words you just said I do not respect. I agree with Dela that you should visit Ireland a while (lol) to calm down ! Watching CNN is like watching to ....how should I put this....sensation, sensation, sensation... It's allways America that's involved in some kind of war...we don't call you. America calls us (to get support) and if we don't respond they decide (on their own) to get into war afterall. USA has failed on getting Saddam and even Bin Laden before. You can tell (from my words) that Bush will never be a friend of my, as well as Saddam and Bin Laden.... (I guess I am not the only one thinking this way).


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1819.3.2003 1:35
webe123
Inactive

@ mystic, Dela, wizkid and dRD....You can all shut your mouth about America! If you don't like my country that is fine, but I think it is the greatest place on earth to live so FUCK YOU! You people don't have any concept when it comes to how an American that reads this feels YOU ARROGANT BASTARDS!! I would like to know what YOUR countries are so I can tear them to pieces and THEN mabye you will know it feels! Let me know what each of your countries are and I am sure that I can find just as much wrong with it! If you are against the war....know this....so am I! I wish that there was some other way for this to end peacefully, but the FRENCH have vowed to VETO every resolution in the UN that even had a HINT of a timetable for Saddam! That to me is STUPID! If Saddam had not had a fleet of ships off his coast then the UN inspectors would NOT have had the oppurtunity they had to even RETURN to Bagdad.... to me.... THE FRENCH are the ones responbsible for this, because they didn't want ANY sort of timetable for Saddam and went around trying to bribe officials for their vote!! Now I can respect them for not wanting war, but NOT for the way they stabbed America in the back! If Saddam has NO timetable or requirements to meet and no reason to be quick about it, then what is to stop him from keeping this thing going another 12 years with no results?? Also America is a super power and does have weapons of mass destruction, but YOU ARE A FOOL dRD for saying that Amewrica should be tried....WE have not used our weapons of mass destruction ON OUR OWN PEOPLE, WE have not raped and murdered our own innocent civilians because they said something we disagreed with(BUT Saddam had HUNDEREDS executed and imprisoned because they didn't believe in his cause!), WE don't have a state-ONLY run radio and television program that ONLY broadcasts what Saddam allows to be said and nothing more! You people make me SICK! You act like YOUR opinion is the only right one! BUT IT IS NOT! Again, I wish there was a way through diplomatic channels to stop this war and get Saddam to comply with what I may REMIND YOU was the WORLDS resolution called 1441 which was passed by ALL the nations of the world, NOT JUST AMERICA AND THE UK! But unfortunately, it seems like this course of action is the only one left. I am not saying I like it....but now that war has come know this......THIS IS NOT VIETNAM and I FULLY support the TROOPS both from my country (America) and the UK and whoever else makes up the "coalition of the willing". Again if you don't like the war then fine! Neither do I! BUT KEEP YOUR MOUTHS SHUT ABOUT MY COUNTRY! Stop acting like this is all americas fault when all of you know good and well Saddam has had 12 years to comply with these resolutions and has thumbed his nose at the UN until he is facing a gun barrel! Now mabye he will take things more seriously! I hope that he hops a plane and leaves Iraq...that would solve everything for everybody and we dcould all be happy! But if he doesn't I still support our troops, if none of you like that, then too bad!

1919.3.2003 2:44

Ok well I am from Holland....so go ahead.. Look, all I read now is lets start this war (Boem bang bong !) I agree that it is time (after 12 years of waiting) to get this B*stard Sadam ! So get him and his men. Do not bomb the whole country, because most of the people are innocent and want to get rid of Sadam. Get Him and his men and put them somewhere on an Island or something. As far as talking about America....I thought we are free to give our opinion about whatsoever. From what I read is that the countries that are going to be (physically) in War are the strong onces and the others are the weak onces. The countries that will not participate in the war (but some do support it political) are having an other opinion. Yes it's possible ! By the way we (europe f.e.) do not have anything to say. Bush will start his own war without the UN. I agree I hope Sadam hops on a plain and get the hell out of this world. But...that doesnot make this world a safer place. There are more crazy people walking around...Who's next ???!

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 19 Mar 2003 @ 2:47

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2019.3.2003 3:35

well Webe123 I call America my home and if you havent looked around this country has all the proboms the rest of the world is complaining about Sadam... are here too... let me start with Agent orange... as use of chemical warfare on our own people and then there is the locking up of innocents just because their middle eastern by birth... lets see hidden agendas hell cia fbi how about the assastion of Kennedy or William Casy (former Head of the FBI) lets be honest we the free the proud have the idea that we can change everyone else for there own good even if they dont want us to... I,m ex miltary and if you want to bitch about what everyone thinks join up take a tour or are you scared........ the world is a very evil place and if we would stop kill each other over sneakers or what everthe new clothing is hot we could all get along.. now to the real issue who's next...... the world should get the idea that if your not willing to try peace then we'll(the USA) wont come help and that include food and meds.... France Russia Germany China Ethopia and a slew of other countrys owe us big time and nows its time to pay up or shut up we took the poor the indegent the hungrey from other countrys for far to long lets send them all back and then the USA would be owned by the real Americans the American Indains not some fat white neo nasi supremist that took the natives and plased them on the resorvtion... really folks rally to end the suffering of others and just vote for the Green party next time at least then you can say the someone with a libral out look got voted into office...

2119.3.2003 3:41
alntht
Inactive

I have to appologize for the rough speech of some of my countrymen, but I must agree with thier stance. However, it is the F* U and speech like that which is getting America such a bad name. Rhetoric like Pres Bush uses is much more productive. The views that America has can be more than clearly stated using language that is not so rough. With that said, America has indeed been the watchdog of the world. SO those who owe their very existance to the USA should back us when we make a decision to protect ourselves. We are not looking to colonize Japan, it is clear that we want to establish a new government in that country (which is what they want according to everyone but their version of parliment) that will help the Iraqi people. Their revenue from the oil will continue to be funnelled through the UNs "Food for Oil" program. Everytime we hurt a countries infrastructure we do everything we can to rebuild (if they allow us) and leave it better than we found it. So if a new leader is what the country wants it should get out of the way and refuse to help him. If they help because the want to or are forced to then we will have to deal with any threats we come upon. I do not want one innocent life to be lost, but if it is, it will be Saddam's fault not the USAs or Englands or Australia's. By the way, over 30 countries have agreed to be added to the list of countries supporting our decision to get rid of this man.

2219.3.2003 3:44
alntht
Inactive

I of coarse ment we are not looking to colonize Iraq...that's what I get for listening to the news at the same time...

2319.3.2003 4:43

Excuse Me! But from what I remember, on 9-11, there were 3,000 innocent people murdered in America. Who came to us to hel? Will those rats come and rebuild the twin towers? I don't think so. All you bleeding heart do gooders are lazy and worthless. Let something happen in your country and who do you call? US! You can't do it. And for the UN. what a joke. By the way, when will the rest of the countries start paying their back rent? So many owe and cry and then think they had rights and something to say. Well, if you can't carry your own load, shut up! If you don't like America, don't come here and don't call us when you need something. America isn't perfect, but I believe that it's the best there is! By the way, why didn't you complain about Russia when it was invading everyone? Let's see, there was also Germany, remember them? And I guess Pearl Harbor was okay. Get a life and keep it out of America. I don't care about those people over there. Why should I, they don't give a damn about me. If one of those rats came here and killed another 3,000, it would be just fine with some of the sewer countries of the world. Infact, whenever the US had to go somewhere to help those lazy cry babies, we gave them more than they had to eat, drink and live in than they ever had before. We (America) has been to giving to those who don't deserve it and that should STOP! Keep the food and money here in the US and let those rats starve! I don't care what you think of me, but I am proud to be an American and think that we are doing right, just not soon enough. And we should bomb the hell out of Iraq.

2419.3.2003 4:48

so, an eye for an eye and...... That says it all !


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2519.3.2003 4:55

Interesting thread. I know that war is evil, but is it in this case more evil than Saddam. I am English and I like my country, but having a leader that sucks up to Bush frightens me. We are more vulnerable to the mindless fanatical terrorist than America because of our open house policy to anyone who says they are a refugee. USA has at least strict policies on immigration, that they are not frightened to enforce, so can at least reduce the possibility of being attacked. What also bothers me is that the opinion polls tell me I am in support of Blair, but I have yet to meet anyone who agrees with him.

2619.3.2003 5:00

I'm american, and i support my country. war sucks, loss of any life sucks, but it is sometimes the only way. we will help to rebuild what we destroy, which i feel is stupid, not rebuilding, but destroying in the first place. we have the technology and the means to silently go in and snipe saddam, ending his reign. I dont see where "carpet bombing" most of the country to get to one man serves any purpose at all. we will spend billions rebuilding what we destroy. I agree saddam needs to be taken out, but if we are going to step up and be the "earth police" we should just go in, grab that bastard, and then turn him over to his own people that he's raped and murdered for so long. it's their job to be his judge and jury. if we are "helping the people of Iraq", then we should do just that, not make their decisions as to how saddam should be dealt with. we've always been real good at going into a country, forcing our beliefs on it, then taking it over at any cost of human life. Hey, thats how we got this country!! I think we as a people should just mind our own damn business, and if saddam wants to horde all the oil, or whatever, we can just steal it like everyone else! hell all this boils down to is we wanted control of the heroin trade in iraq during desert storm. bush and his father are 2 of the biggest drug lords in history, bnut of course you wont hear that on CNN.






http://www.Lonero.net - friend of the forums, great guitar player
#afterdawn (well i have no idea where it is anymore)

2719.3.2003 5:09

then we should bomb Saudi not Iraq thats where the terrosit came from or dosnt anyone remmber ..... really its time to clean house when our shores have to be protected and our children are threatned but why should we care if Sadam bombs Saudi hell most americans would send him the bombs to do it after all the cia trained his forces and Bin Laddens as well, but who are we kidding we are the #1 target because we belive all people should be free... hey let the eddiy anins eat his country for breakfest ... i dont care ... but our safty as free hard working indviduals has to come first ... sad to say everyone is right if oppions were expressed in a civel manor then maybe others would listin but with threats and harsh words people get defencive... so no one is right we all want peace and if that dosnt work as Americans we feel some inherent right to start a fight that we dont want to prove we are right cause were bigger.... (not smarter) keep your heads down cause shits gonin hit the fan and spray all over this world because of it.....

2819.3.2003 7:27

Hello Thargor, i am a very well educated english man and i say go Elayne! Everything she says is so true, dont beleive the hype about the british not backing the war, they are a crazy minority who protest outside american air bases because they have nothing better to do with their lives. There opinions are blown out of all proportion by a very left wing media in this country. Tony Blair's decision to back Bush is the only decent thing he has ever done since coming to power. All of my freinds are also for the war and we could by no means ever described as rednecks. I agree with him on the immigration problems here and this will ultimately be our undoing! Something bad is gonna happen her and i am pretty sure its gonna come soon, i would feel safer in america and would emmigrate there so fast if i could find a job and a green card. Because apart from the better wages and better standard of living, american woman have such sexy accents!

2919.3.2003 7:55
MrWhite
Inactive

All I'm wondering is what exactly is the reason for going to war against Iraq? Saddam is an evil man? So is Robert Mugabe and a whole little army of dictators around the world, why don't the US invade them all? Saddam ignored UN resolutions? Israel ignores many more. Iraq supports Al-Quaida? Is there any evidence for that? At all? Iraq has WMD? So does Israel, China, Russia, Pakistan, India, France etc etc etc.... Does Iraq directly threaten the US? not that I can see. I don't see how the war is even in USA's interests, anyone who thinks there will be less terrorism after a war of aggression against the muslim world is a damn fool. Israel seems to be the only country that benefits from this war. They get their borders secured as well as a nice distraction to beat up on the palestineans a little more. It's happening right now, did you know that?

3019.3.2003 8:03

The difference is Russia does not hate the west with a passion (not any more anyway). terrorism may get worse for the west after this but the longer they use sticks and stones and simple weapons the better for thew rest of us. I cant see Isreal and China passing on WMD to bin laden or other groups (Isreal for obvious reasons and China has too much to lose) Trust the American and English government, they have more information than we will ever have and we just have to live with this fact and except the decisions they make. I would say the opposite is true when it comes to internal policies though, that is when it is all about money.

3119.3.2003 8:04
webe123
Inactive

I think we are all in agreement that Saddam Hussien and his boys have got to go! I just wish there was some other way to go about it! I don't like the idea of sending young men and women from ANY country and putting them in harms way! But sometimes you have to take a stand for what is right! We all know the horrors that were commited by the Nazi Party in WWII, but what a LOT of people either forget or don't know is that if the "leauge of nations"..now the Untied Nations had of taken a stand against Hitler when he FIRST started to invade other countries, nearly 3 billion jews would not have lost their lives. Someone asked Winston Churchill what they should call World War II for historys sake.....He replied "It should be called the UNNECESSARY WAR!" What he was saying was that, if the nations of the world had of met their responsibility to stop Hitler before he became so powerful, then all of the lives lost in the armed services needent have happened! But as it stood, Hitler Invaded more and more countries until the time came that he could no longer be ignored. But what a terrible price the world had to pay because of apathy! Well, we can't help what happened then....but we CAN learn from the worlds mistake! If Saddam Hussien is able to get his hands on an atom bomb....NO ONE WILL BE SAFE! Because he will sell it to the highest bidder, and a lot of people would suffer, more than even now! So to avoid that scene, Bush and other countries are going to take what I call "preventive measures"!! You don't wait until your oil light comes on in your car before you put oil in it! That would be taking an unnecessary risk of ruining your engine! And the world has voted on resolution 1441 unanimously, because they belived that they didn't want to wait and find out if he had weapons of mass destruction.....by having a bomb go off in one of their cities. Think about that!

3219.3.2003 8:25
alntht
Inactive

HERE HERE!!

3319.3.2003 9:01

right on webe123!!!! we gotta get that creep before he gets us. but then again, we as a people cant just decide to go attacking people just becasue the "could be" a future threat. I whole heartedly agree that saddam must die, and all the people that support him should also die, case closed. BUT, i hope this doesn't prompt other countries to go on the offensive and start attacking their neighbors just because they might be a threat some day. There's a guy at work right acrossed from me that i've had words with in the past, but i'm not going to run over and slit his throat just because we might get into a fight one day!!!. again, SADDAM MUST DIE, but that doesn't mean everyone can go on the offensive. hey, cause if they did, we'd probably step in anyway and stop it cause we can't ever mind our own business. We love freedomand peace, and if you dont join in our freedom and peace, we'll come and destroy your country, and kick the crap out of you!!!(peacefully of course, cause that will make it ok) :)






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3419.3.2003 10:20
webe123
Inactive

darthnip....did anyone ever tell you you have a keen sense of humor?? Well I am! HE! HE! I espically like that part about loving freedom and peace and if you don't join in our freedom and peace, WE'LL COME AND DESTROY YOUR COUNTRY AND KICK THE CRAP OUT OF YOU!! Yeah, that'll show 'em! You won't push US around! (HE! HE! HE!) I also hope that this is a special situation, because I don't want us to go to war every month just because we feel we can change world opinion or somebody flicked a bugar on our president! Of course on the other hand if I was the president of the U.S. and I got a bugar flicked on ME.... I would ....NUKE EM!

3519.3.2003 10:27

I dropped by this forum looking for codecs and starting reading this thread. I'm an American, and what this country is about to do makes me sick to my stomach and very sad. Something horrible is happening here, economically and politically, but mostly psychologically and spiritually. Maybe its been going on for a long time and is just now starting to bear fruit, like a fungus growing under the soil that finally sprouts a fruiting body, or maybe a putrid pustule that, after festering for months or years, reaches the surface of the skin and breaks. I feel ashamed for the US and for the kind of mentality which many of the posters on this thread demonstrate, all this hatred and racism and self-importance and ignorance and lack of empathy. Its ugly and brutal and you see it here every day.

3619.3.2003 10:39

One more thing. Chris Hedges was the New York Times Balkans Bureau Chief and Middle East Bureau Chief, and spent over 20 years covering wars around the globe, and during his many years of war reporting, among other things he was beaten and tortured by various forces, including the Iraqis. He spent time in the torture rooms and rape rooms that you read about in the news. And he wrote a book called "War is a force which gives us meaning." He gave a short interview on the radio here about his feeling regarding this war. I will paste the URL below... it's in real player format, just cut and paste. I recommend for everyone on the thread to listen to it, it's short, but especially for the americans here. The poem cited is by Auden. Bye. rtsp://audio.npr.org/fa/20030318_fa_02.rm

3719.3.2003 10:55

webe123- yeah my sense of humor is something i wish more americans had. I'd put saddam's head on a stick and BBQ it for the people of iraq if i could. It just makes me sick that we cant mind our own business. if they could prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that saddam was involved in 9/11, fine, no problem, lets blow him to smithereens. but what about the people that serve him just out of fear, or threats to their families. the people that have no choice but to live there and cant get out. those are the people i feel sorry for. all the iraqi military or civilians that choose to fight us will die. we're good at war, we like to destroy places. how could they be so stupid as to think they even stand a chance. i say, better to wave the white flag and live, than to die bringing a stick to a gunfight!.






http://www.Lonero.net - friend of the forums, great guitar player
#afterdawn (well i have no idea where it is anymore)

3819.3.2003 16:55

Well, the time is here. I hope and pray that the job gets done and that all our men and women come home safe and sound.

3919.3.2003 18:48

Amen Elayne. May all the soldiers, on either side, from any country return to their families safely. Except of course that rat bastard saddam(izer). I still think we should just get bush and blair in a tag team steel cage match with saddam and bin laden, they can settle it that way. couple chair shots, maybe a few broken ribs or fingers, but no mass death. but at the end, saddam and bin laden die anyway, but hey at least they got to feel like they had a chance. sorry, that was silly HA!






http://www.Lonero.net - friend of the forums, great guitar player
#afterdawn (well i have no idea where it is anymore)

4019.3.2003 19:10

I wonder why only my posts are done in pink.

4119.3.2003 20:14
bossins
Inactive

To read what some people say we Will pass judgement,,However to it was written that the saddams army say that they would Give their Blood and soul for him.Now i ask you,dont you know that god ,Jesus (as i know him)is the soul keeper,but dont you know if that kind Dont Repent,The devil owns them,,.. There was one here today on this forum that i agree with.France Owes in god we trust american, thier way of life germany,Russer,and others and you Know Who you are, Owe your debet as well.. Dont have write ya name down,But However You call God , you need to get on Your knees and thank him and give god the crecit and YOUR soul,,In the Run of like that is the only way truth and the life..May My God Keep on blessing america and those that DO Right..There are rottin apples in all barrals,BUT I Proud to BE an American..France, are ya happy with ya head in the SAnd?

4219.3.2003 20:35

I am an American fighting in the forces which guard our country and way of life. I am a soldier in the United States army, currently serving over seas helping protect those who cannot protect themselves. This is the life that I have chosen. I do not wan't to go to war, I do not want to kill other people, nor do I wish to see my friends and comrades killed. Yet, if a few must die for the greater good of the world, then that is the price those of us in uniform are willing to pay. All around the world there are evil people in power, North Korea, Iraq, and others as well. When Adolf Hitler took power many people new that he was evil, yet decided to try and let him do his own thing and look at what happened. Now we have the oppurtunity to prevent such attrocities. Anyone who doesn't appreciate what the soldiers from all over the world are doing for the people of Iraq, who are outright murdered for speaking their point of view, who are not allowed to post their feelings on chat rooms etc., and the free people of this world who no longer want to allow terrorists to have a safe place to hide, should be forced to live in one of those countries. Let the people who speak out against removing these villians from power, live under their rule. And when they decide to leave, and these evil rulers tell them that they cannot, perhaps then will they allow us to use the force neccesary to remove these evil people from power. To all of you who have posted against the war, that is fine, you can sit in the safety of your living. Just remember that I am out here, along with hundreds of other soldiers, risking our lives to give you the right to do so. You are welcome. a Non-Comissioned-Officer in the United States Army.

4319.3.2003 21:56

I fully support the words Delphi said. And hkusp40 I am really sorry but all you do is following orders Aren't you ? So that is whether you are against a war or support a war. Allways follow orders ! So don't say you risk your life for us, that's what you choose to do ....


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4419.3.2003 22:47

WizKid, It may be hkusp40's choice to risk his life in the protection of the US (and in this case, IMHO, world safety (and yeah I could be wrong but it's my opinion and I'm allowed one - I live in the free world)) but his choice or not, he and his fellow soldiers are risking their lives so the rest of us can live safer, more comfortable lives. Doesn't matter if they are following orders when they go into battle - it doesn't make the risk any less.


In theory, theory and reality are the same thing. In reality, they're different

4519.3.2003 23:21

I know what you mean, but it's just the words. Are you sure, when they risk their lives we can live peacefull. Do you really believe that ?? This will just be the beginning... Still looking for Bin Laden...takes mayby years to get him and as a revenge on bombing Afghanistan he can plan a whole scale of attacks meanwhile. I agree get those two but they must be caught quickly, so that they cannot act in the meantime (or give orders to terorists all over the world). So basically what I am saying is: Things could get worse with an action like this. As far as the solder in war: A regular texas boy who is the President of the US now (after not even getting the most votes and after a lot of misscounts), is setting the world on fire (by his own decision) and plan to take over the Middle-East. I think it's a brave thing to do listening to such man and even follow his orders (whether you like them or not).

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 19 Mar 2003 @ 23:23

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4619.3.2003 23:46
webe123
Inactive

Well Wizkid, you have your opinion and I have mine! But YOU sit in the comfort of your home making comments about your opinions....opinions MAY I REMIND you that were give you by the blood of a lot of brave men and women who fought in the armed forces like hkusp40....who I have the UTMOST RESPECT FOR! Now you can sit there and make your remarks all day long, but I had some uncles and a dad that served their country in WW2...I guess you are gonna give me some bullshit about how THEY also were "just following orders". If you do not believe that sometimes you have to fight for what you believe in......let me give you a small poem that was written by a man named Martin Niemoller. He was an anti- nazi activist in WW2 that risked HIS life so that others could live in saftey. There is a remodelled cell at a concentration camp the germans called Sachsenhausen. In that cell there is a plaque on the wall with flowers beneath it. The Plaque tells a poem that he wrote called "First they came for the jews". This is what it says, "In Germany, first they came for the communists. And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews. And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists. And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the catholics. And I didn't speak up because I was a protestant. THEN THEY CAME FOR ME. AND BY THAT TIME, NO ONE WAS LEFT TO SPEAK UP". That poem pretty much says it all! He was a protestant pastor who spoke out against the Nazi party in WW2 but.... HE was a Uboat captian in WW1! He was converted to christianity and started to see the atrocities that the Nazis were doing and when he spoke up about it, Hitler personally ordered him to be put into a concentration camp for the rest of the war, where he wrote this poem in his cell. I think he was saying that before, he had an attitude like yours..."why should I care"?? But after he came to christianity, saw what a dictator could do and all the horrible things he could be capable of! Now we are not fighting Aldof Hilter, I already know that.....BUT THE MESSAGE IN THAT POEM IS A WARNING! A warning to people with a "why should I care"? attitude! Again, the reason all of the countries voted in the first place for Saddam Hussien to rid his counrty of weapons of mass distruction, was because they realized that an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure! We could go on and sit back and let him do his thing, but we could also face a terrorist with a weapon of mass destruction that he bought from Saddam! YOU say that might never happen...BUT I SAY WHY TAKE THE RISK?? "The smallest minority on earth is the indivudial. Those who deny indivudial rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities"-Ayn RandYou So....why should I or the world for that matter care about what one dictator does to someone else? Because WE could be NEXT! THATS WHY!

4720.3.2003 0:29

HELLO !!!! Did you really read everything I wrote ?? 'I don't care attitude' ??? Ahum. In some of my answers I wrote that also I want to get rid of Saddam and Bin Laden. No not just for my own safety, but more for the people that live in these countries so that they can live a life like us somehow. I guess you (everyone) want that to happen too.... Second of all I am not sitting comfortable in my house.. I listen to the radio, watching TV and check the Internet for Breaking News in this matter. I want to know what's happening over there and think about what might happen next. I just hope this will be over soon for the sake of all the solders, civilians and worldpeace. I guess I am affraid off what comes next in answer of these actions...! I also have respect for every men fighting for a peacefull world....(I wrote It's a brave thing to do.....bla bla). Well, now this war has allready started so there is nothing we can do, just hope the outcome is the outcome we all would like and that is mainly freeing the Iraqi people from its Leader (and Regime). After that its just waiting for what comes next.


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4820.3.2003 0:49

Webe123, With all due respect sport, the world has change since Martin Niemoller wrote his poem, and from my reading of it, it would apply more to the People of Iraq than to the rest of us. But it's easy for me to say that because I'm pretty sure no-one will knock on my door if I criticise Tony Blair/George Bush and attach electrodes to my balls. I could never really figure out why we didn't finish the job of 12 years ago - maybe there was a good reason, I don't know. I share WizKid's anxiety about all this. The odds are someone will take it all far too personally (I hear Saddam has already called for a Jihad)and decide to take up the banner against the west and christianity/bhuddism/whatever isn't islam. But you have to stand up and be counted at some stage and although I think it was right to tackle Saddam, I'm not sure about the timing. I actually agree with the French, Germans and Russians that the Weapons inspectors should have been given more time but when Jacque Chirac mouths off against countries that oppose his point of view it doesn't help reasoned discussion. I've seen a lot of that here <g> Trying to associate Saddam with Osama bin Laden hasn't worked - I've seen nothing that links the two or, indeed, links Iraq to anything other than Torturing it's own people. Would we have gone to war against Nazi Germany if "all" they had done was exterminate Communists, Jews etc inside of Germany - probably not Overall I think it's the right thing to do, just the wrong time to be doing it.


In theory, theory and reality are the same thing. In reality, they're different

4920.3.2003 8:04
webe123
Inactive

@Wizkid HELLO YOURSELF! I DID read your article and to me instead of concern, it sounded like you just didn't give a shit! If you do, then whatever your position is on this war, support the troops because they need it! Now as far as listening to everything you can get your hands on so am I! Also I want to point out that a "holy war" could be called on the US or any of the countries participating in this war, you are right about that.....but when you are in a fight, you don't back down just because you are afraid of what might happen or what the other guy might try to do! And I am glad you do have respect for those folks fighting, because they deserve it! BVut as far as Saddam Hussdien going, that is where we both agree! I hope he sees how much devistation he is bringing on his own people, but I somehow doubt it! Someone like that has no sense of feeling unless it affects them directly......well now it IS affecting him directly! I guess we'll just have to see what he is going to do next!

5020.3.2003 9:09
webe123
Inactive

@KevSan...Listen.. The world HAS NOT changed that much since that poem was written! That poem is a warning against APATHY or simply put....turning a blind eye to something wrong when you have the power to make it right!! Look at what happened in the "Leauge of Nations" years ago and what just happened in the UNITED NATIONS a few days ago! Back then, the leauge of nations couldn't decide to take action against Adolf Hitler, because AT THAT TIME he really posed no threat to any of the nations in the leauge....it was only LATER ON afterwards, that he built his armies up to a point where he threatened world domination! And the whole reason he did THAT, was because the world DIDN'T TRY TO STOP HIM WHEN HE WAS A SMALL THREAT! You may tell me that Suddam Hussien is no Adolf Hitler and in SOME respects I would agree...but in SOME respects I would not! Now, do I really believe that Suddam Hussien has the power OR the intelligence to overthrow the current governments? My answer is NO! He does not even come close to hitler on a level of intelligence and things are not econimically the same in his country as before WW2, where germany suffered a humiliating defeat to the world in WW1 and there was no jobs to be found. That was how hitler took control, by convincing the people that he was their savior and that the world should pay for what they did to germany! He also ruled when he took over power with an Iron fist and NO ONE could questioon his judgement and LIVE! BUT, skip to the present and consider what I just said! Saddam Hussien has been for quite some time the enemy of people who think differently than HE DOES! He has had thousands captured, tortured and murdered all because they DISAGREED with what he said...just like hitler! Now as far as that poem going more to the people of Iraq than the rest of us? I would say that YES it IS about the suffering of the people of Iraq, but you are MISSING THE POINT! The whole reason he wrote that poem, was because HE was in a position to DO SOMETHING about the Nazis but he failed to speak up against them! When he finally realized what horrors the Nazis were capable of, he said "Then they came for me,and by that time no one was left to speak up!" We can't afford today to WAIT until Saddam sells some terrorist a bomb and it goes off in one of our cities, because by then it would already be too late! Now as far as the timing is concerned, I would liked myself for the inspectors to have a little more time, but lets be realistic! Saddam Hussien has ad 12 YEARS to obey the rules the security council put forth and has been thumbing his nose at them....what makes you or me think he would "all of a sudden" change his mind, when the only real reason he was having the inspectors back in the first place was because the US and Britians armed forces was setting on his doorstep! I amn sorry, but I believe that he has had PLENTY of time to comply! The white House has also said that they would WELCOME....EVEN at this stage of the game....Saddam Hussien taking his two sons and cabnet and leaving the country. Now I ask you, is Saddam Hussien really wanting to look out for the people of Iraq, or just hang on to power? I would go with the latter! If now isn't the time who can say when that is???? Because In can guarantee you one thing, if Saddam Hussien was allowed to DRAG OUT the inspections, he would have done so for as long as he could! Not only that but I am sorry to have to disagree with you about the timing of the war! It is nice for us to sit and post on a board and give our opinions as to how long the inspections should have continued, but there were hunderds of thousands of combat troops at their PEAK of battle readiness and most agree that if we waited another three months, that readiness would have diminished and could have cost lives! The Inspectors had a hard task and I believe they did the best they could under the circumstances, but Iraq didn't want to give them the information they needed, just give them enough information to keep the soliders on their doorstep at bay! It was NOT their job to play "hide and seek" with Saddams weapons of mass destruction! They were there strictly ond solely to CONFIRM...CONFIRM.....that those weapons had been destroyed, but a lot of people get the idea that they should have found them all by themselves...no! It was Saddam and the government of Iraq that had the responsibility to PROOVE that the weapons had or were being destroyed. I would have liked a little more time too, but do I think it would have made a difference?? Absolutely NOT!

5120.3.2003 9:34

webe123, I don't think I missed the point and I agree that we should all stand up and be counted when we really believe something. I also believe the Saddam has had plenty of time to comply with UN resolutions and I don't believe he ever would have fully complied - and I seriously doubt that the weapons inspectors would ever have found the "smoking gun". However, the cost is probably a higher price than I think we should pay. By waiting a few more months, perhaps as long as 6 more months, we would have given the weapons inspectors time to do their jobs more thoroughly and, more importantly, been able to satisfy the requirements of the other permanent members of the security council so that the attack had UN backing. Yes, he needs to have his arse kicked but the cost to international co-operation, which is flakey at the best of times, is too high. We should have done it 12 years ago.


In theory, theory and reality are the same thing. In reality, they're different

5220.3.2003 13:56

Thats right America can do what it wants, to whoever or whenever it wants too.Why because we are the lone SUPER POWER left on earth .Listening to these twenty somthing "children" protest the war,just infuriates the hell out of me.They have no concept of global politics.If you children dipise America so much GET OUT !go live under saddams rule see how nicly he treats his people.The rapes , muders,fear tactics if you cared so much for the Iraqi people you would understand why he has to go.We are now at war support our president and our troops,if you cant say something positive dont say it at all.Some of this crap these kids are doing is borderline treason and they should be treated as traitors and dealt with accordingly(Remember during war time convivicted of treason you are EXECUTED!)something to look foward too. (NOBEER4U)

5321.3.2003 4:59
webe123
Inactive

@ KevSan....6 more months?? I think that is going a little OVERBOARD! You just said that we wouid probably have to do this anyway! SO WHY should we WAIT 6 more months and risk the "Battle Readiness" of our soliders?? To get more nations on our side?? I DOUBT that would happen! The rift between the US and it's allies and France and it's allies, was only widening...SO WHY RISK THE LIVES OF OUR SOLIDERS BY NOT BEING at their "peak" and waiting until 6 more months and keeping them on ships?? I have not been aborad a battle ship, but from what they report, IT ISN'T a MOTEL! And you are talking about keeping thousands of US marines that are ready to fight on ships for 6 more months when we were gonna have to do this anyway? THEY WOULD LOOSE THEIR EDGE! Right now, they are at the peak of their training. They know what needs to be done and how to do it.....but A LOT of military officials asked by different news orginazations responded if they had to wait EVEN THREE MORE MONTHS...they would LOOSE that EDGE! I am sorry, I don't think it was worth the risk! If there had of been progress at the UN and in IRAQ, then yes, by all means...but NOT the way everything stalled!

5421.3.2003 7:24
alntht
Inactive

The inspections didn't work in 12 years, they wouldn't have worked in 12 more years. I don't think any country is doubting that he still posesses weapons of mass destruction, and the inspectors have said as much. So that means that he is hiding them. That is very dangerous and scary. We are doing the right thing because it is the last resort. Diplomacy is just an irritation to Saddam, and he could care less about it. He continues to walk the tight rope and draw his people into another confilct that they cannot win..but he still forces it. Then decides to burn their oil fields to ensure that his terror goes on a little while past his death. There is a bumper sticker that says "People who abuse animals rarely stop there." The same applies to people like Saddam. He will not stop at terrorizing his own country...and if he did, his sons definately wouldn't. The time to get rid of Saddam was 12 years ago, but Bush Sr. shied off because of Politics. Clinton was too busy with Monica. I just pray that we get the job done right this time. And for all of you that are whining, just think what it would be like if one of your families was the victim of a chemical or biological attack where the supply came from Saddam (very likely). Then who would you blame? You would blame the president for not taking action when he should. We are not dealing with neighbor to neighbor interactions here. We are dealing with a nation that is ruled by a terrorist. Don't forget that he paid/pays the family of the suicide bombers. Don't forget that he has used the weapons on his own people ruthlessly. Don't doubt that he will do the same to US given the chance.

5521.3.2003 7:52
webe123
Inactive

RIGHT ON alntht! I couldn't have said it better myself! I don't think that giving Saddam Hussien more time would have accomplished anything at all!! The only thing it would have done, is give him time to bury his weapons of mass destruction deeper and dig in more! Then it would have been just that much harder on our soldiers! Not to mention what I said about their battle readiness suffering! No...It is time to end this once and for all.........

5621.3.2003 9:40
princy1
Inactive

The issue that all anti-war protesters seem to be pushing is "we should have given the weapons inspectors more time" is a load of crap.The issue people should be looking at is his apparent disregard for the truth.As far as I'm concerned he's hiding the weaponry that he has got, knowing if he comes clean the result will be war, because the other option is to come forward and say what he has got, which would also probably also end in war, but this way America and Britain are being condemned for their actions by the likes of France and China etc..

5721.3.2003 12:41
webe123
Inactive

@princy1...Your thoughts are exactly what I think! I am not against the "anti-war" protesters, but I just cannot believe in their cause because I feel America has...gone the extra mile! We didn't HAVE to go to the UN, but it was the right thing to do, to try to get the world to understand what it was we were doing! I just don't think "more time" would have made us any more friends or enemies one way or the other, but to tell you the truth, I am beginning to wonder about France! Word is, that they may even try to BLOCK A REBUILDING resolution that America would draft for the UN! It just seems that there is more to them than mets the eye! I was against having to send in troops to Iraq unless it was the only way, which is exactly what it turned out to be! But France on the other hand seems more concerned about Saddam Hussien than even Russia or Germany! At least the Russians or Germans didn't take extra steps like bribing other members of the security council to win their vote and vow to veto ANY resolution put forth that even had a HINT of a timetable for Saddam Hussien to give up his weapons of mass destruction or face war! But France sure did! It makes me wonder just what the heck they are up to! I am wondering if they could have been sharing "dirty little secrets" with Saddam that they really don't want the world to know? I also wonder if they are afraid that mabye some weapons they supplied Saddam with might be found out after he is kicked out of Iraq? OK...I know that I am REALLY streching the truth here, by saying those things about France...but the way they have fought America over this thing really makes you stop and wonder....DO they have something to hide???

5821.3.2003 13:47
princy1
Inactive

It wouldn't surprise me one iota if they have got something to hide. To be honest with you I don't think anyone is too worried about anything France has to say on the subject, but they do seem to have some ulterior motive in trying to stop U.S. or British troops (or any other from the United Nations for that matter) going into Iraq. As you say I don't think anyone with half a brain want's a conflict, but when dealing with an underhand dictator the likes of Saddam Hussein, who can't be trusted to control any kind of "weapon of mass destruction", the only outcome for the safety of the rest of the world is to ensure that these weapons, and the facility to manufacture them is put well beyond his reach, by force if necessary.

5921.3.2003 15:12

I wasn't going to comment in this thread, however, as the # of comments grew it seems like we forgot what we were talking about. I'm american..so what? It seems this thread is so self centered around one's country. I'm VERY proud of my country. But what we should remember is: Sadam, Bin Laden...people like these men don't belong to a country. They belong to a group...a group of EVIL people. No matter what country you hail from, no matter what God you praise, if any, i believe there are only two groups in the world. Good and Evil. That is it. We should be extremely careful of our words per the simple fact that the evil people in this world want nothing more than for all the countries in the world to fight against each other! That is what they want. So, just a request, no matter who you are, where you come from, if you are a good person please comment that way. The enemy is Sadam and people like him. The enemy is not the USA, Iraq, North Korea, Britain, France, Germany, Holland, or any other country. The enemy is not the people of these countries either. Please somebody tell me why on this thread...we have said things like "Fuck you" and "Your country is ....." These comments are free to be expressed...but are they relevant? As i said i'm american...actually, i'm orginally from New York. I was deeply hurt by the loss of 9-11. But, if somebody says to me "The people of the Middle East are suffering", I certainly would not answer "Let them come re-build some towers then I'll help them". I'm not a "bleeding heart" american either. I believe all those responsible for 9-11 should be shot. Period. I believe Sadam and his followers should be shot for what they have done to innocent people. Period. I DO NOT BELIEVE the world should all retreat behind some make believe border and refuse to help anybody they do not call countrymen. The world must UNITE. And if we can just get past things like the pursuit of wealth over everything, racism and discrimination (and what do you think it is to say Frenchman suck because they will not support the US in this war?...it is racism.) If we can all get past some very pety things...come together...respect each other (we do understand that EVERY country has done something stupid at one point or another right?)(also we understand that all countries have great people in them right?) This forum is a great example of how the world should be actually. ;-) Really! If i have a question I DON'T CARE IF SOMEBODY FROM FRANCE, BRITAIN, ITALY, hell, timbuktu answers it. Why don't i care? Because it isn't about what country you come from. Bottom line. If you are a good person and have good intentions, your answers are good enough for me (even if they aren't 100% correct) same goes for life. If you are a good person and you have good intentions YOU are good enough for me (even if you are black, french, have 1 eye..whatever) I truly hope we don't lose sight of how much GOOD there really is in the world...and more importantly i hope and pray we don't add to the hate that there is alrady too much of. Please...everybody from every country respond to this...i really hope we can all add positive comments. My name is James Shanks. American.

6022.3.2003 5:17
webe123
Inactive

@Jshan87...I agree with most of what you have said and I do belive that there is good in every country, I apologise if any of my words offended anyone, but I DO feel very strongly about my country and do NOT take it lightly when I hear someone bashing it! But what I said about France and the questions I had are VALID and need answers! THEY ARE NOT ABOUT HATRED! Why DID France seem to be the only country that went above and beyond the call of duty as far as opposing this this war is concerned...EVEN going as far as to try to bribe other security council members so that they would vote against the resolution that the US and Britan drafted just before this war began?? You may say that they were just against the war...but so were Germany, Russia and other countries on the security council, but I didn't see those countries doing what France did! I think THAT is a valid question! Also, why did France seem to be the only one country that has opposed ANY resolution that gives a timetable for Saddam....no matter HOW it was drafted? Again, not hatred, but a question that needs to be answered! It just seems to me that France was more concerned about keeping Saddam Hussien IN POWER, rather than finding ways to rid him of his weapons of mass destruction! So it does bring up questions in peoples minds, IS there an alterior motive?? I really wonder!!

6122.3.2003 6:06

well webe123, i can definately see where france is at question here. The french are a strange kind of people (no offense frenchies, just cant think of another term to describe you guys and gals). If they are in "kahoots" with saddam, i'm sure it will come out eventually, and i'm sure we'll go kick the crap out of them too. But on the other hand, and in all fairness, it could just be that they are that dead set against this war. They have felt the wrath of terrorists before and i suppose they could just be trying to cover their own asses and avoid any further attacks on their country. No matter what the truth is, I'm sure we will give them more than enough time to come clean, just like we did with saddam.






http://www.Lonero.net - friend of the forums, great guitar player
#afterdawn (well i have no idea where it is anymore)

6222.3.2003 22:30

I did not join this mailing list to hear a bunch of anti-war rhetoric. I shall be cancelling my membership. To hkusp40: THANK YOU!

6323.3.2003 1:27
Waszir
Inactive

OK Then Go to: http://www.masturbateforpeace.com


"I'd rather be sky diving . . .

6423.3.2003 5:09
webe123
Inactive

@ jankmj...sorry you feel that way...BUT this thread IS about the war. Even though I don't agree with what People opposing this war are saying for the most part, it DOES make for some interesting converstation! I am trying to see it from their side also, because I realize that my opinion is not always the ONLY one. But I know it DOES make me mad when I hear people bashing America OR bashing the soldiers of my country and our allies! Why? Because I can be against a war or an action taken by my government that is not that popular.. WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, BE FOR THE MEN AND WOMEN THAT GIVE THEIR LIVES FOR FREEDOM! I really appreciate the men and women in the armed services, because they are willing to put themselves in harms way and make the ultimate sacrifice if it comes to that, THEIR LIVES! You can't really ask for more than that! My father and Uncles served in WW2 and I guess to me, that makes it a bit personal! All of my uncles and my dad cme home after the war untouched except for my uncle Jamie who was shot at Iwo Jima and lived, but even he was treated and came home with all of his limbs. But a LOT of neighbors in my dads neighborhood went and never returned! Just goes to show how dangerous a war can be, yet I still believe that some things are worth fighting for! Even NOW!

6523.3.2003 5:12
webe123
Inactive

@ Waszir...LOL! I thought that was going to be a BLANK site with nothing on it! What a bunch of idiots! HE! HE!

6623.3.2003 6:20
webe123
Inactive

For all of you people that think the Iraq regime areso innocent and don't need to be attacked THINK AGAIN! They just aired a story about some AMERICAN POWs that were SHOT IN THE HEAD by the Iraq army! There are still supposed to be five left! Now I really don't give a damn WHAT happens to Saddam! I hope he and all of the soliders that did this burn in HELL!

6723.3.2003 6:22
webe123
Inactive

I also hope that all of these STUPID FUCKS that are against this war will now change their minds! It is one thing to capture someone, but to put a bullet in their head? Now I am mad! I hope the damn FRENCH GOVERNMENT SEE THESE IMAGES!

6823.3.2003 8:55

Right on! This war is about oil and control of the world's resources. Webe123, why don't you drive to Iraq in your SUV and tell Saddam what you think, stupid, stupid chickenhawk. Remember Rumsfeld's glorious and tight-lipped visit of friendship in 1984 while the Kurds were getting gassed? Oh yeah, I guess you forgot, huh?

6923.3.2003 8:58

Read all about it boys and girls: Most glaring is that Donald Rumsfeld was in Iraq as the 1984 UN report was issued and said nothing about the allegations of chemical weapons use, despite State Department “evidence.” On the contrary, The New York Times reported from Baghdad on March 29, 1984, “American diplomats pronounce themselves satisfied with relations between Iraq and the United States and suggest that normal diplomatic ties have been restored in all but name.” A month and a half later, in May 1984, Donald Rumsfeld resigned. In November of that year, full diplomatic relations between Iraq and the US were fully restored. Two years later, in an article about Rumsfeld’s aspirations to run for the 1988 Republican Presidential nomination, the Chicago Tribune Magazine listed among Rumsfeld’s achievements helping to “reopen U.S. relations with Iraq.” The Tribune failed to mention that this help came at a time when, according to the US State Department, Iraq was actively using chemical weapons. Throughout the period that Rumsfeld was Reagan’s Middle East envoy, Iraq was frantically purchasing hardware from American firms, empowered by the White House to sell. The buying frenzy began immediately after Iraq was removed from the list of alleged sponsors of terrorism in 1982. According to a February 13, 1991 Los Angeles Times article: “First on Hussein's shopping list was helicopters -- he bought 60 Hughes helicopters and trainers with little notice. However, a second order of 10 twin-engine Bell "Huey" helicopters, like those used to carry combat troops in Vietnam, prompted congressional opposition in August, 1983... Nonetheless, the sale was approved.” In 1984, according to The LA Times, the State Department—in the name of “increased American penetration of the extremely competitive civilian aircraft market”—pushed through the sale of 45 Bell 214ST helicopters to Iraq. The helicopters, worth some $200 million, were originally designed for military purposes. The New York Times later reported that Saddam “transferred many, if not all [of these helicopters] to his military.” In 1988, Saddam’s forces attacked Kurdish civilians with poisonous gas from Iraqi helicopters and planes. U.S. intelligence sources told The LA Times in 1991, they “believe that the American-built helicopters were among those dropping the deadly bombs.” In response to the gassing, sweeping sanctions were unanimously passed by the US Senate that would have denied Iraq access to most US technology. The measure was killed by the White House. Senior officials later told reporters they did not press for punishment of Iraq at the time because they wanted to shore up Iraq's ability to pursue the war with Iran. Extensive research uncovered no public statements by Donald Rumsfeld publicly expressing even remote concern about Iraq’s use or possession of chemical weapons until the week Iraq invaded Kuwait in August 1990, when he appeared on an ABC news special.

7023.3.2003 9:05

This is war about oil and the New World Order. Dubya is a moron sock puppet who will only dig us deeper into a war of civilizations with fundamentalist Islam. We're feeding their fire, not putting it out. I support our troops and I love my country, which is why I'm not going to be a robot. If you're so into the war, why don't you drive your SUV to Iraq or sign up as a merc, chickenhawks?

7123.3.2003 11:29
webe123
Inactive

KISS MY ASS! MichaelSS! And I don't have a SUV... YOU LITTLE PRICK! So unless you know what I have, Keep your damn mouth shut...FUCK! And as far as Donald Rumsfield and Iraq, what you said is OLD NEWS! EVERYBODY knows that the US and Iraq were friendly with each other up until reciently, so What is your point ASSHOLE? WE DIDN'T have a 9/11 back then where terrorists were running airplanes into our structures EITHER! And as far as YOU telling ME what I think or don't think about this war, you don't know SQUAT about what I think about this war...so don't even try it! But PUNKS LIKE YOU have to put EVERYONE else down that disagrees with you! READ (that is IF you can READ) MY POSTS! In them I stated CLEARLY what I felt about this war! I DO NOT want this war, but I believe it is a LAST RESORT and if you don't like it.. GO TO HELL! Also they have just SHOT SOME OF OUR SOLIDERS IN THE HEAD you miserable BASTARD! BUT WHAT does that have to do with you? You act like you don't even give a SHIT! Probably because YOU are secretly FOR SADDAM! So I am MAD at Saddam and his government for doing this AND ANYBODY FOR HIM, WE .. that is the US, (I Don't Know WHAT THIRD WORLD COUNTRY YOU LIVE IN.....) are taking a stand against his dictatorship and taking him out before he takes US out by selling weapons of mass destruction! Now YOU can either LIKE IT OR LUMP IT! But as far as I go, I don't really care, you can go to HELL!

7223.3.2003 13:35
Shoey
Inactive

Saddam started the Gulf war in 1991, and he is responsible for this war at hand. This WAR isn't over oil, never has been, never will be. Saddam is a very evil tryant, killing innocent people. He thought he could get away with invading Kuwait but he was DEAD wrong. He is responsible for countless murders in Kuwait as well. If Saddamm would have abided by the U.N security council "rules", he wouldn't be in the situation he's in now. Time and time he lies, not allowing U.N inspecters to have "unfettered" access to ANY site. Winston Churchill warned the world in 1938 about Adolf Hitler, and the "potential" threat he caused at that time and the entire world never took him seriously. Over 2 million innocent Jews were slaughtered by this evil dictater. I hope we killed Saddam with that bomb at that bunker or seriously wounded the bastard. I admire the Bush administration to go after and rid out this evil tryant and do away with him for good. Saddamm openly admits he gives several thousands of dollars to Palastenian families to whose children blow themselves up to kill innocent people in the name of "Ala". Ala is DEAD, in the grave, 6 feet under! The land of Israel belongs to the Jews, not the Palastenians. If you disagree then pick up a Bible and READ. I pray for our troops at war for their safety and for the Iraqi civilians as well. Soon, and very soon the Iraqi civilians will enjoy "freedom". Look out Korea, we about to mess you up if you continue to keep messing around with those missle launches! USA is the greatest fighting force on the entire planet, don't mess with us! Shoey

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Mar 2003 @ 13:55

Asus K8N nVidia nForce3 Pro 250 GB, Athlon 64 3200+, Hitachi 80 gig SATA 150, Corsair XMS 1 gig PC4000, ATI Radeon Saphire 9600 Pro (256 DDR), Windows XP Pro (64 Bit),Lite-ON SOHD 167T,, Plextor PX-712SA,BenQ 1640.

7323.3.2003 23:47
webe123
Inactive

@ Shoey....AMEN!

7424.3.2003 0:23
webe123
Inactive

As far as the HOSTAGES go, It seems that they were only a MAINTAINENCE unit that was following behingd the main column of artillery and combat troops, there were about 12 of them. Somehow, they took a wrong turn and went down the wrong road. They were then surrounded by Iraq forces and taken prisoner. NOW...they have a video tape that shows a number of them killed....some SHOT IN THE HEAD in what looks to be a makeshift morgue and the other ones that they didn't shoot were giving out their names and places in the US where they lived on the same videotape that is being played on numerous Arab TV stations......I suppose so the Iraq forces can let american famlies know that they have take their sons and daughters captive! Also, the news media that HAS seen the tape, decsribed the tape as "sickening"! It has also been requested by Donald Rumsleld that the tape not be aired on U.S. national TV stations across America, because of the nature of the tape. Now I don't know about anyone else on this board, but when ANY U.S. prisoners of war are being treated badly, then it only makes me more comitted to this war! The U.S. does NOT treat it's prisoners badly! And for all of you smart mouths that say they do, go listen to some of the former U.S. prisoners of war interviews in the GULF WAR archives at CNN or Fox News! THE FORMER PRISONERS OF THE GULF WAR themselves will tell you that they were fed, clothed and TREATED WITH RESPECT! I am in complete agreement with the president of the United States when he said that we have treated Iraq prisoners with respect and WE EXPECT THEM TO DO THE SAME TO Coalition prisoners....if they do not, then THEY WILL BE TRIED AS WAR CRIMINALS!!

7524.3.2003 18:47

Well, I was hoping that the US would go in and kick ass, but it's getting rather apparent that the US is fighting this war and is in need of a lot of help. I am not happy at all that so many Americans and British are getting killed. I can not understand why we just did keep on bombing the hell out of Iraq. Today was the kicker, the helicopter crashed without firing a shot because of human shields. Well, FUCK THAT!!! Why the hell do the Americans and British get murdered to defend a bunch of crap. The Geneva Convention. HA! The terrorists and the alike don't worry about it and if they are tried for war crimes. HA!. Now, either America go in and kick some ass or just forget about it. It'll be another Vietnam or Gulf War and for what. A bunch of good people get killed for what? A bunch of nobodys! From what I heard today, more of our military people have died than their civilians. That really pisses me off. So what the fucking problem with some of these bastards dying for their own country. Come on America, start kicking ass, don't let up on the bombing until we've got them all.

7625.3.2003 8:43

Will quote few from Elayne here: "I am not happy at all that so many Americans and British are getting killed." For relativeness sake, casualties have been still on "minimum", compared to any war up so far. Still, every killed one is one too many, true that. That goes as much for both sides. "Why the hell do the Americans and British get murdered to defend a bunch of crap." -Prefer using word killed during war time. "The Geneva Convention. HA! The terrorists and the alike don't worry about it and if they are tried for war crimes." -Tell me about it. In the end, winner dictates it all. "It'll be another Vietnam or Gulf War and for what. A bunch of good people get killed for what?" -I don't see correlation between Vietnam and Gulf War, care to explain? I can share your agony to some extend thou, fukloads of Vietnamese peoples/ US soldiers peoples died during that war, for sake of what? "A bunch of nobodys!" -Who are these nobodies to whom you're referring to? "From what I heard today, more of our military people have died than their civilians." -I would consider that being a good thing, if that would be true. You're forgetting the indirect casualties of war thou. Diceases, hunger etc... "Come on America, start kicking ass, don't let up on the bombing until we've got them all." - And who are those all? If you're referring to Saddam and his lakeys, bombing wont solve the problem, most likely. I requires, most likely, man power.

7725.3.2003 10:23
alntht
Inactive

I understand what people are saying about the number of Americans and British dead, but the number is very small compared to any other war we have ever been in. But, before, we didn't have the media in the position it is in now, able to report about every single casualty. And by the way, casualty is both dead and injured. We must remember that these brave men and women signed up to serve and defend this country, and that is what they are doing over there. They knew the risks going in and still decided that it was woth it. By posting anti-war comments or protesting in the street, we are demoralizing them and thier families back here at home. I think that is sick. Wether people mean to be hurtful or not, they are being hurtful. As far as the number of casualties, when we stormend the beaches of Normandy, we would have been very very happy to have the number of casualties that are being taken at this war. During the Civil War more than 50 men died in the first volleys shot sometimes. 1000s died in one day at many of the battles. Those men and women believed in the same thing as the ones in Iraq right now; that they had a country worth fighting for, and one they would lay their lives down in defense of. How can we stand back and criticise them, and that is what the anti-war protests are doing. It's hurting them more than we will ever know. This is not another Vietnam, but if some people get thier way, our Soldiers will come home to the same kind of hatred as they did then. That should never be. As for the justification for the war, if you have been watching the news, then you can see what the justifications are. Saddam and his troops are using the civilians as human shields. We have found gas masks destributed among the Iraqi troops that were killed during bombing raids. We don't use chemical weapons. The world knows that. So what were they doing with them? If anyone can still stand back and say that this was not the way to go, then nothing will convince you except having to live under such a harsh and horible ruler as Saddam. I just thank God that we are not in that position, but if we were, I would want someone to come help me out of it.

7826.3.2003 2:39
webe123
Inactive

Well let me add another question that I think is VERY INPORTANT! It has been reported that Saddam Hussien has drawn a circle on a map around Bagdad and has told his republican guard elite units that IF the coalition forces crosss over that line, then they can release WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!! Now....here is my question and one that I think will change the mind of even the french president....HOW IS SADDAM HUSSIEN GOING TO USE SOMETHING HE CLAIMS HE DOES NOT HAVE???? I mean... months and even years now Saddam Hussen has declared that he has NO weapons of mass destruction in his arsenal! OK.......THEN WHAT IS THAT REPORT ABOUT?? The weapons inspectors said just before the war began that Iraq was STILL missing LARGE amounts of weapons of mass destruction that THEY KNEW HE HAD AFTER THE GULF WAR! Now......how is he going to use something he doesn't have???? I guess we will see how big a liar this guy is when the forces get nearer to bagdad!!

7926.3.2003 5:13

The question is, Is that truth or Propeganda??

8026.3.2003 7:18
webe123
Inactive

@Dela....well who knows?? The point I am making is that we shall SEE if it IS truth or propeganda when they try to move into bagdad...Saddams last stand! If he is going to use them.......THAT will be when he does! But I am wondering if he DOES have them and use them if the french and everyone else on Iraqs side, will see the regime for what they really are ......a bunch of THUGS!

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