Blu-Ray group responds to HP proposals

unwilling to change because it could delay the release of the blue-rays...thus they would in their minds loose the battle...and not make $$$

I feel that after all this is done and we as the consumer is given a choice. The biggest voice will be our dollar and how we choose.

no I think we're going to be forced to choose in one way or another

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As far as I am concerned BLU-RAY has already lost the battle due to SONY's underhanded tactics with there XCP copy protection. I will never support them or any company that sink so low because of there GREED!!!

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I don´t see how these are directly related. Or do you have facts I´m not aware of? It doesn´t sound like it - but please feel free to correct me. I am NOT defending Sony for their repulsive strategy of protecting their IP at the expense of their customers - but at this point there is no guarantee that we´ll run into XCP-like issues with Blu-ray products. I doubt it, after all the turmoil with XCP. Regarding the actual article... I think it´s good the group is making some compromises. The ability to create backups is a must, and without this HD-DVD would have had a major advantage both in the eyes of companies and consumers. iHD sounds like a nice feature - being future-tech and all. I´d like to see Sony and the rest use iHD just because it sounds cool right now, but I´m not sure we can really tell if it will be a superior technology until we see final products. Will we see a clear difference in the usability of the final of-the-shelves products? Too early to tell I think.

ok i don't read much about the blu ray disc or the other one, but tell me this how much more hi-def can we really see, that the normal dvd will not give us? If it's for the space on the disc well thats just more junk that no one wants to watch..i just want the main movie and bloopers/outtakes thats all i need. the rest is a waste to me....but then again thats just me...

Sony. Don't trust them, won't give them my money. Was on the fence on High Def till last week. I openly want to see them fail in the High Definition Arena now ... they got my dander up. Will be buying HD-DVD only. Will only rent Blu-Ray. No revenue to Sony. Been doing some research. With HD-DVD it will be an easier route to backup the movies I buy. Do not be foolish and assume "... there is no guarantee that we´ll run into XCP-like issues with Blu-ray products..." That would be Chamberlain at Munich. (sorry to disagree Ghostdog, my friend). Noticed neither standard gives us disks in a protected encasements like floppies. Still no protection against scratches and damage; burden of care is on the consumer so they make more money on replacements (same decision was made at the Compact Disk Standards Commitee meeting of 1988 and later by the DVD Standards Committee). If you want to be able to protect your investment by backing up, avoid sony terror and go HD-DVD.

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Been doing some research. With HD-DVD it will be an easier route to backup the movies I buy. Do not be foolish and assume "... there is no guarantee that we´ll run into XCP-like issues with Blu-ray products..." Than would be Chamberlain at Munich.

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I think the foolish thing to do would be if we did asume that Sony would implement something like XCP again in their products. This mechanism isn´t just a burden for those that want to back up their music - it´s a widespread security risk. Are there any signs of XCP clones in Blu-Ray media? If so - I haven´t heard about them. Of course the new DVD-standards will feature copy-protection - I´m confindent that this is true for both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. In the above article (just a few days old) the Blu-Ray group said it would implement "Mandatory Managed Copy", which HD-DVD already supports. I´m curious to know what 'research' you´ve done that shows HD-DVD to be easier to back up. After all, I too am just a consumer waiting to see what the next-gen DVD´s will come to be.

Ghostdog, Noticed that both you and p4_tt are very forgiving and defend Sony. On this thread you even called it ignorant to bash Sony: http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/260436 My post futher down that thread (dated 23. November 2005 @ 05:44) further decribes my feelings. These are my honest gut feelings. And this whole thread is about our feelings and responses about remaining a Sony customer. It's almost as if you guys have a stake in Sony. The first and formost reason HD-DVD will be an easier route to backup is that Sony is not behind them. I am not forgiving and I am not a fool! HD-DVD has ALREADY committed to Mandatory Managed Copy as a point of PRINCIPAL which tells me something. Like, duh ... I'm gonna believe in Sony when people say "the foolish thing to do would be if we did asume that Sony would implement something like XCP again in their products". And that they MAY endorse MMC at some future date ... I'm so suuuurrre. Who is foolish! Let me take this down to the playground level. If someone struck me, I would not rationalize it by saying "maybe he didn't really mean to hit me" or "well, I guess I deserved that" or "golly, gee ... he does have other good qualities, I guess I'll turn the other cheek". I would hit back and hit hard, again and again till he was on the ground ... so the little bastard (or others) would never even THINK about striking me again. We are two different people. You guys can play Chamberlain if you want but I'm gonna play Churchill. Please excuse my lack of courtesy in this post. I respect all members of AD from newbie to mod. I respect all opinions in the sense that I would die to protect your right to express them. But I am diametrically opposed to trusting, appeasement or clemency in regard to the abomination Sony has tried to foist on us ... and will continue this stance. Americans, for all our shortcommings, respond with enviable vigor to having our freedoms "tread on". And Sony got my dander up. I want to retain my fair-use rights for entertainment I have purchased and I'm gonna fight to keep them in this digital age. And I will continue to support any legislation that will reinstate the fast slipping principal that Foreign Companies should not be allowed ownership of American Media! When exactly did we slide on that one? Best regards, Whisperer

hi whisperer,come on over to the irish pub,where all ye friends are, {Rag-Tags} stollery,vegas,lawman,gijoe etc..and where we all agree that sory is at the bottom of the pot. where i keep the tech news updated daily,part of the sony news is here and the rest is at the the new irish pub. i can not post the link here,will send it to you in a e-mail. your friend ireland

Thanks for the invite Ireland. What's for Thanksgiving dinner? Thanks-giving that we still have some rights left in corporate America. And that we still have the b*lls to call an enemy an enemy. Tell Stollery I came out of my bunker on this debate! I'm wailing like I'm a member of the great US Congress or the great UK Parliament. Gotta go to work now. And when I get MY paycheck, I WON'T be buying anything Sony. Your friend, Whisperer

They've turned on us! theyll just tighten the leash DONT TOUCH THIS NEW BLU-RAY why should we pay for there mistake? they consider us thieves. I feed them money and they bite my hand. Our freedom as consumers are being clamped down or stolen!

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Ghostdog, Noticed that both you and p4_tt are very forgiving and defend Sony. On this thread you even called it ignorant to bash Sony: http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/260436

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It wasn´t my intention to call anyone a fool and I apologize if that is how you took the comment. However; every time something like this comes up there are a bunch of people that immediately blast off something like "Oh no, not these bastards again. Down with Sony - they´re evil". To me it seems like a lot of posts made in response to articles are too emotionally loaded and made in haste. I´m not againts criticism of unfair tactics or companies that treat consumers badly, I just think people could sometimes express themselves a bit more rationally. These things tend to bring up quite heated opinions, but sometimes people could think twice before posting certain things. I am not nearly as active on AD as I used to be (infact I haven´t used the actual forums in quite awhile) - and yet I always seem to come across the same kind of 'collective hatred' towards companies like Sony. People just seem to jump on the bandwagon too easily. Personally I have never had a negative experience with Sony or their products - so that´s one reason a might be taking a slightly defensive stand. I´m not defending Sony´s use of XCP even though I do understand why producers of immaterial products want to protect their income. In a case like this the company has naturally gone too far in doing so. I am opposed to the kind of tramping of consumer-rights that is going on even here in this part of the globe, even though that isn´t always obvious from my posts. Hope this helps in clearing up where I stand.

Does not Blu-Ray have about double the capacity? Would that not be an important advantage going forward? I for 1 am not fond of all these Disk #2's even for the extra's. I won't put them in my carrousel, they are just a waste. Have not up graded to HDTV yet but will in about 1 year.

mcintosh "Does not Blu-Ray have about double the capacity?" Double the capacity of what? Than DVD's? yes of course, more than double. Than HD-DVD? HD-DVD is the same technology. Different format and differnt companies backing it.

No, It was my understanding that Blu-Ray had 2X capacity to HD DVD

mcintosh Didn't know that. Or forgot it. Will check it out. If someone knows, maybe they could post the sizes of both formats. And are both dual layer in their first public release or is HD-DVD planning dual layer later? Must be tons of room on both formats, as is, compared to DVD's. Wonder if full capacities will ever be utilized for anything other than entire collections like TV series or other similar. Thanks, Whisperer

From the Blu-ray FAQ: -------------------------------- How much data can you fit on a Blu-ray disc? A single-layer disc can fit 23.3GB, 25GB or 27GB. A dual-layer disc can fit 46.6GB, 50GB or 54GB. To ensure that the Blu-ray Disc format is easily extendable (future-proof) it also includes support for multi-layer discs, which should allow the storage capacity to be increased to 100GB-200GB (25GB per layer) in the future simply by adding more layers to the discs. How much video can you record on a Blu-ray disc? Over 2 hours of high-definition television (HDTV) on a 25GB disc. About 13 hours of standard-definition television (SDTV) on a 25GB disc. --------------------------------------------- HD-DVD: ------------------------------------ HD DVD delivers all the capacity necessary for all sorts of recorded content, including movies and live performances. There are two kinds of single-sided HD DVD discs for content playback: the 15GB single-layer disc, and the dual-layer disc with double the capacity, a full 30GB. Using the latest compression technologies, the 30GB disc can store up to 8 hours* of 1,125-line HD images. Today's DVD has a capacity of 4.7GB and can contain 2 hours of 525-line standard definition (SD) images; the 30GB HD DVD has space enough for 48 hours of SD images. * Playback time depends on data transfer rate. --------------------------------------------

Thanks for the info Ghostdog. Very informative.

hi whisperer a little more info how about 200gb on a disk?.. Ricoh develops 8 layer 200GB optical disc Posted by Dan Bell on 27 November 2005 - 13:57 - Source: New Launches According to a story over at New Launches, it seems Ricoh has been busy and along with help from Tohoku University, figured a way to increase the amount of recordable layers in an optical disc to eight. Not only that, while they were at it, they put quite a bit of data on each layer for a total capacity of 200 gigabytes. Let's see, 25GB a layer, can we guess what color the laser is? Ricoh Co. has developed technology that paves the way for the commercialization as early as 2008 of a 200-gigabyte optical disc, which could store 18 hours of high-definition television programming. This huge leap forward in recording capacity from the current single-layer DVD's 4.7GB is made possible by increasing the number of data recording layers to eight. Even next-generation DVDs, such as Blu-ray discs and HD DVDs, have only two data recording layers because having more normally results in light reflected from other layers interfering with reading. The new technology sidesteps this by filtering out the offending light through the use of a special glass plate developed by Photonic Lattice Inc., which was set up to commercialize technology developed at Tohoku University. This is a tad bit interesting, as the story indicates that with Blu-ray technology, there is/was a problem producing a disc with more than two layers! Until now, we have been led to believe that both Blu-ray and HD-DVD were poised to produce discs with many layers. Interestingly, this new process from Ricoh uses an optical head that reportedly shares the "same basic design" of both HD-DVD and Blu-ray and can be adapted to either standard. http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12737

God almighty ... wadaya gonna put on 8 layered disks? I will need a cray super computer, operating in a refrigerated vacume to back up a Ricoh disk. and I'll bet it won't even play on my betamax!

whisperer,more info how about this.. can hold 300GB on each layer, with a theoretical 1.6 terabytes per disc Further information on holographic discs coming forth Posted by Dan Bell on 28 November 2005 - 18:14 - Source: New Scientist We were surprised to read last week that while the Blu-ray camps were busy firing salvos of press releases at each other, another new storage solution, the holographic disc was much closer to production than we thought. In that previous story, we learned that the process, developed at Colorado based InPhase Technologies, was ready for Maxell to go to manufacture as early as last quarter of 2006. What is interesting too is, this storage system is a quantum leap from DVD and even Blu-ray, as this concept can hold 300GB on each layer, with a theoretical 1.6 terabytes per disc for the future! But how does this media work and what does it look like? Here are some more bits of information from New Scientist. The discs, at 13 centimeters across, are a little wider than conventional DVDs, and slightly thicker. Normal DVDs record data by measuring microscopic ridges on the surface of a spinning disc. Two competing successors to the DVD format – Blu-ray and HD-DVD – use the same technique but exploit shorter wavelengths of light to cram more information onto a surface. Beam-splitter Holographic memory, by contrast, stores information in a light-sensitive crystal material using the interference of laser light. The process involves splitting a single light beam into two and then passing one through a semi-transparent material. This is a grid that acts like a filter, changing different parts of the beam to encode bits of information. The altered beam and the reference beam are then recombined in the light-sensitive material and their pattern of interference provides a record of the encoded information. Information can be recorded and retrieved so rapidly because many bits of data can be recorded and read in parallel. This is different in strategy indeed and quite exciting to say the least. With the ability to allow a million bits of data to be written and read in parallel with a single flash of light, the system can already transfer data at 10 times the speed of DVD. In the article, they quote InPhase as stating they are expecting to double that data rate. http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12743

Might be worth investing in InPhase Technologies. Just did a quick check but can't figure out if they are still privately owned or will spin off and go public. Investment money is from good sources though, so some consider them a good risk. long term though.

sony has lost all my suport for not total lack of suporting everqust players as they had and still have the we dont care becuae were the largest and best and dont have to attitude so even thought i have sony harware in my house now as they do make a good product no future dollars except for everquest will go to them