AfterDawn: Tech news

Microsoft confirms Xbox 360 problems

Written by James Delahunty (Google+) @ 23 Nov 2005 21:33 User comments (158)

Microsoft confirms Xbox 360 problems A day after the North American launch of the first of a new generation of consoles, the Xbox 360, Microsoft has confirmed that some gamers are experiencing nasty problems already. "We have received a few isolated reports of consoles not working as expected," Microsoft spokeswoman Molly O'Donnell told Reuters. A lot of Xbox 360 sites, including 360Updates, were filled with messages about strange crashes and error codes that users were getting. In some cases, the console would crash after less than 20 minutes of use.
While it is expected that problems like this would arise, you have to understand why many of the new owners of this console are frustrated. If you read around online, even just in our Xbox 360 General discussion forum, you will read about how people were disappointed after waiting for hours in the cold to buy one just to find out they weren't going to get one. Now imagine waiting for hours in the cold, queuing for your turn and then finally getting one only to take it home and watch it crash within minutes.

Most of the reports Microsoft is receiving details the console crashing during normal usage, or while using the Xbox live service. However, the company is still delighted with the launch and claims there is only a small fraction of complaints - but did not release any figures. "With any launch of this magnitude, you're bound to see something happening," O'Donnell said.

So what do you do when you experience problems with an Xbox 360? According to O'Donnell, the best thing to do is call 1-800-4MY-XBOX for trouble shooting. If the problem cant be solved, Microsoft will repair of replace the console. Meanwhile, if you have any "horror stories" concerning your first encounter with an Xbox 360, or better yet, any pictures of videos you made of an Xbox doing something it shouldn't, post them on this thread, or create a thread on our Xbox 360 General discussion forum.

Sources:
Reuters
360Updates

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158 user comments

123.11.2005 23:24

Saw this one coming ^_^ Hope it has same kind of bugs like first dreamcast, that allowed to run unsigned code :D Maybe not though. Anyway I'm going to buy one ^_^

223.11.2005 23:57

Yep,all systems have bugs when they first come out your better off waiting a while for them to fix them. I hope this is one reason sony is takeing there time. I think every model of the PS2 had a problem(so people said). Also I just wanted to add I played the 360 at best buy for an hour and had no problems. the 360 looks sweet if you own a 2,000 doller TV.

324.11.2005 1:16

People, Why don't you just take 600 dollars, buy a computer, take 200, buy a 6800gt and bam, you got something that can do what a x-box 360 Platinum can, AND download porn.

424.11.2005 2:22

Quote:
I think every model of the PS2 had a problem(so people said).
Same thing with ps1 and psp (although I think they have fixed any issues with psp now).

524.11.2005 7:04

see another reason why you should wait for the 2nd generation xbox 360.

624.11.2005 8:03

Quote:
People, Why don't you just take 600 dollars, buy a computer, take 200, buy a 6800gt and bam, you got something that can do what a x-box 360 Platinum can, AND download porn.
I'd rather just pay $400 for a gaming system that I can play on my HDTV, thn buy an e-machines comp and an amazing graphics card that probably doesnt even run well on a cheapass computer. Just my opinoin ;)

724.11.2005 9:57
slim23
Inactive

I Say wait untill the much better Playstation 3 comes out not only is it going to be better it will have a blueray player which everyone will eventually have to buy or HD/DVD but most likely blueray not only that do you really trust BILL GATES stupid microsoft lol

824.11.2005 10:07

Quote:
I Say wait untill the much better Playstation 3 comes out
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a fanboy. Say slim23, how can you know that ps3 will be better when you haven't seen any gameplay yet or anything at all? What if ps3 flops and has even more issues than 360? What do you say then? At least I don't have any difficulties choosing a next-gen console, I will buy them both (Yeah you heard me, them both, don't see a revolution coming).

924.11.2005 11:43

i just got my xbox360 and i got no problems yet if i do find a prob im going to tell microsoft to shove the xbox360 up there ASS if that dont fix it

1024.11.2005 12:47

A computer is the best gaming "console" me thinks.

1124.11.2005 13:03

That's why you wait a year or so .. When the PS3 comes out you either buy a PS3 or XBOX 360 will come way down in price to compete with the PS3 and you buy a 360 then hoping that all the bugs are worked out by then...

1224.11.2005 14:01

"With any launch of this magnitude, you're bound to see something happening," O'Donnell said. I read that Walmart stores will have 15% of all Xbox 360's during it's launch. My local Walmart had 4 Xbox 360's. So obviously is wasn't a launch of great magnitude at all. I'm wondering how many Xbox 360's were actually available around the entire country.

1324.11.2005 14:07

I'm wondering how many xbox's were actually returned because they didn't work as expected..

1424.11.2005 14:08

"how can you know that ps3 will be better when you haven't seen any gameplay yet or anything at all? What if ps3 flops and has even more issues than 360? What do you say then?" When has Playstation ever flopped? PSone, PS2, and PSP are all huge successes. Microsoft Xbox lost it's battle to PS2 in a major way. Now it comes out with this new system with a joke of a launch and glitches in it's fancy machine. Most people here own a pc of their own. Imagine what you could do with a $400 video card. Much more than an Xbox 360 because a HD tv is needed to make that system worth buying. On an analog tv it's not that impressive.

1524.11.2005 14:16

I say ANY console that comes out is going to have it's issues at launch.. It's no different than a piece of software that needs upgrades because of glitches. It's bound to happen.. That's why I can wait for the price to come down and less glitches... Sony's consoles may have some glitches but most of the gliches are only glitches if you're trying to hack the system.. While Micro$oft has so much $ they should be able to make it perfect before launch never mind a year and 5 vers later

1624.11.2005 14:36

I just got my 360 and it plays Perfect Dark Zero fine and I haven't noticed a thing...well mabye I'm just lucky then i guess.

1724.11.2005 16:02

I'm a pc gamer so I don't really care who wins the console war this time around but I'm beginning to wonder did Microsoft launch too soon? Not many people have hdtvs yet and I was watching my friend play with his 360 on a pretty nice but non HDTV and I wasn't impressed at all but then I'm used to desktop screen resolutions of 1280X1024 and up.

1824.11.2005 18:16

It serves them right. The only reason that they released so early is that they wanted to be ahead in the game and beat out the competition, but they sacrificed stability in the process. I think the biggest flaw of the 360 is what it's supposed to do; be some kind of home theater system. Nobody buys a damn video game console for any other reason than playing damn games! The only convinence of that is to be able to play movies. You know, they already had that before, and as many people all ready own one, they really don't need to waste away $400 for that. You could buy a 6800GS and 1 or 2 GB of RAM for that price and still beat it out.

1924.11.2005 22:20

I don't get it either. I assumed this thing would play DivX and XviD files since they were marketing it as a media center for the living room type of thing. Seems to me you can only play mp3's and change the faceplate.

2024.11.2005 22:29

I find it funny to hear people here say that they hope that the PS3 will beat out the Xbox. While here in other forums on this site they hope that Sony burns in Hell for their XCP rootkit software on their CD's. Plus not here but in news stories elsewhere the talk about the new PS3 wasn't so good. The story made some sense when asked, the game programers weren't doing backflips saying that Blu-ray was better than sliced bread. Maybe the reason why Sony has such a late release date is this reason. That it is so hard to write programs for this console. Plus you say that a computer is a better platform for games yes you are 100% correct. The only problem is that 2 years after you drop $300 on a sweet vid card and $200 on a CPU. Your computer is out of date and then what. Play the games that meet the bare requirements on your computer. After 6 years and a couple of add-ons to my rig, I finally went out and bought another computer. But I also made sure that this one would work with Uncle Bills new OS Vista. And at least at game console is alot easier to take to a LAN party. I haven't heard of and worms or virus infecting a console.

2124.11.2005 22:32

Quote:
When has Playstation ever flopped? PSone, PS2, and PSP are all huge successes. Microsoft Xbox lost it's battle to PS2 in a major way.
It only needs one time to be a flop. Same happened with nintendo, remember n64 and gamecube? Gc is only sold because it's damn cheap. Poor parents buy 'em to their whining kids. Still no good spread with gc although it cost as much as a pair of socks. Playstation 3 will probably sell even if it is a flop, since sony has many fanboys that will swear in the name of ps3 (even if it sucked). And because it is already so overhyped, although we haven't seen any gameplay (if we don't count in that bathtub video, that doesn't prove anything). Microsoft lost console wars with xbox? Hell no they didn't, they just made less money than sony, but they did not lose. Well maybe in Japan, but not in u.s. and europe. And back then sony had an advantage, since ps2 had been on the market quite a while before xbox was released. Now the table has turned, x360 is released earlier (maybe even earlier than ps2 was released before xbox). When they start selling ps3, x360 will have 100% hold of next-gen console market, and it will be cheaper. We'll see how that ends up. maxxjulie, if you think that xbox was a flop, then by your standards psp is a flop too. It sells quite well, but it still is overwhelmed by nds. Yeah, x360 has few bugs (might be only a fraction of of total number of sold consoles, things tend to be over reacted on internet), but it still sells like hell, sold out everywhere. Even some of those who lined up at midnight to get x360 didn't get one.

2225.11.2005 0:59
kishkash
Inactive

Xbox 360 will be a success reguardless of any gremlins,I bet when PS3 arrives there will be faults with that. Everbody seems to get sucked in by the over hype of these machines,it's better to wait for the price war to start when all formats established and are on sale together. I think there is going to be a shortage of Xbox360 for Xmas so if you want to make some easy money,get hold of any Xbox360's and put them on Ebay there are some already on there going for more than shop price. Merry Xmas Yo! Yo! Yo!

2325.11.2005 4:58

Quote:
A computer is the best gaming "console" me thinks
Only for a narrow amount of games. I'never recall enjoing a good fighting game, beat-em up, plataformer or even sports game in a PC. With the exception of RPG's, fps and some Racing Games it is more confortable to play in a console. Not to mention that the variety of titles to choose from is usually more interesting for consoles. I currently own a PC with a Radeon 9250, that should give me a couple years more of play and a PS2, and will be getting a next gen console after comparing.
Razengan!!!

2425.11.2005 11:37

No ladies and gentleman we have a unmature person's post here..Aracnix with respect to you. Dont you think it is quite childish to call someone a fanboy just b/c they have a diff opinion than you. Was this forum not created so that diff things can be discussed and diff opinions on subjects be shared among people. It it is not fanboy to say that the xbox lost the war b.c honestly they did if you look at the FACTS.

Quote:
they just made less money than sony, but they did not lose. Well maybe in Japan, but not in u.s. and europe.
That sounds quite biased to me. With all fanboy crap aside. If you want the truth that is not coming from a fanboy it is here on the net and not hard to find. Xbox did get a royal flush dealt to them by sony in sales and that was in every country. Info wise, if you total the numbers of xbox sold worldwide in all countties combined, the ps2 still outsold the xbox with just using the number of system in North America alone. Worldwide xbox about 22 mill/ worldwide ps2 over 90 mill. When someone has specific reasons as to why they think one system is better than another that really is not fanboy. When ps2, xbox, and GC droppped onto the scene i thought the ps2 will dominate, and xbox and GC will battle for second. That is exactly what happended as the years past. Xbox finally pulled away from nintendo to itself an obvious favorite over nintendo.. My point is that my opinion would have been called fanboy back then. Years later it came to be true so my opinion must have had some type of logical reasoning behind it. I have been bad about lashing out at others in past but i am here to say lets respect everyones opinion without totally disrespecting the next guys opinion. Some people had been saying they would buy a xbox 360 over the ps3 b/c sony products were crap b/c they always had defects. My opinion was that all products have defects when launched and that shouldnot be a deciding factor in which system you will choose or to whether you will choose it at all. As we see here Microsoft has a defect at launch. I am not going to biase myself not to buy a 360 just b.c of that. As many others have pointed out that is to be expected no matter what the names says on the console. Nintendo is probably the most reliable of the 3 systems if we are discussing defects. That doesnot make a system bad though. Everyone should still go out and get a 360 or whatever systems they choose.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 25 Nov 2005 @ 12:29

2525.11.2005 11:43

An on-line friend of mine by the name of MIMP got me into gaming by starting me out w./Diablo for P.C. Unfortunately, DIABLO's entire box set ruined me, because I now compare it to lots of other games, hard to beat in other words. X-Box was my first console & I find that most of my games are better on the X than the PS2. I also like how much faster the X-Box boots up than the PS2 AND the X-Box NEVER seizes up like like the PS2. X-Box as well, is more user-friendly. Sorry Sony, as a former salesman of hi-tech, I USUALLY recommend your products over your competitors, but not when it comes to the X-Box. For the next generation? I plan on updating my Vid & Sound Cards to get me by until the 360 comes down in price (& the bugs get worked out). And I may pick-up the PS3, but don't think it can beat the 360 - - won't know until I get one of each. Down below here, ARCANIX speaks very wisely & I appreciate his/her point of view. Thanks for your input my friend! -Lone Wolf, Denver,CO

2625.11.2005 11:58

It's spelled arcanix, thank you very much. At this point it's not much of an opinion if you say ps3 is much better, since there's nothing we know about it. But the xbox 360, well it's out you know. I don't have to google, I've studied the facts before I posted, and I've been following the gaming scene tightly since good ol' c64. And as I said xbox didn't lose anything at this so called war. Yes, ps2 sold 90 million units, which is hell of a lot more than xbox sold. But if you think about it, 20 freaking million units that xbox sold is a huge amount too, even if compared to ps2 sales. Thanks Lone Wolf, at least there's some rational people around here ^_^

2725.11.2005 12:02

PLEASE READ THIS, Xbox 360 crash fix found,...*(TEMPORARY)* http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/262085

2825.11.2005 12:38
slim23
Inactive

we all know that if you look at hardware for the ps2 and compare it to the other consoles Sony gets put to shame. Yea maybe it is FANBOYS that caused Sony to win the battle but since Sony has a later release date i don't think they are gonna go low end on the hardware side I'm sure all the mistakes that XBOX is making Sony is going to Triple check that it doesn't imitate and repeat. Sony I'm sure knows that to compete they have to be better and blue-ray is already a step to victory in my opinion. yes there is no doubt that X360 is amazing but now Sony can have its chance to PUT IT TO SHAME and i say BRING IT ON

2925.11.2005 13:14

"OH BOY" Lets just say If PS3 launchs and has very small to no problems (YEAH RIGHT) does that make them King?? All consoles are going to be buggy in the first 2 yrs from launch. And so will Sony's PS3. Know I'm not a PS3 hater but them launching in late 006 doesn't mean that it won't have bugs either. Sony's got to be a little pis-ed that they didn't think to launch know instead of later. We all took a risk in buying the new Xbox 360 buggy problems or not. (It is still a great console)

3025.11.2005 15:12

All Microsoft wants is money they wanted to make money right away thats why xbox 360 is sold out nationwide. they didnt wait to get in more shipments

3125.11.2005 19:20

I don't think any of you know what you're talking about. XBox was just released and Sony has yet to premier their newest, so the point in aurguing is really moot at this point. Time will tell.

3225.11.2005 22:59

aracnix... iunderstand that 20 mill is a lot of units to sell. True. They did great. No one is saying the xbox did not do well but on a competition level the number comparison would be like a highschool basketball team playing against the best team in the nba. They did not just get outsold by a few millions units. Second if you had studied the facts before you posted as you say you did, then you would have already known the xbox was outsold in america and europe. You did not have to lie about it and act as if you already knew b.c your previous post is proof that you had no idea at all. We all make mistakes just be man enough to admit it sometimes. But enough on that. i see a few others posting here that also understand that defects is something to expect out of any system. The xbox 360 will sell regardless. I am sure microsoft is going to be nice enough to not only fess up to their mistakes but to also fix them if they have to. That shows really loyalty from a company plus they dont want to turn the media and consumers against them by not being obligated to fix a screw up that might be their fault. They would lose too much money if they lost their fanbases respect.

3326.11.2005 0:06

Quote:
then you would have already known the xbox was outsold in america and europe
And Japan. It's quite obvoius that xbox was outsold in us, europe and japan, when ps2 sold overall 70 million units more than xbox. So it's not worth mentioning.
Quote:
You did not have to lie about it and act as if you already knew b.c your previous post is proof that you had no idea at all.
Lie? I knew all the numbers, and it's quite easy to tell that xbox was outsold with those figures. My point is that didn't lose anything, they just sold less than ps2.

3426.11.2005 3:31

LOL man chill with that b.c there is no way i beleive you. You might want to stop before you get struck by lightning. If you knew already then explain why you posted this???????????

Quote:
Microsoft lost console wars with xbox? Hell no they didn't, they just made less money than sony, but they did not lose. Well maybe in Japan, BUT NOT IN U.S. AND EUROPE.
Read the last sentence in the quote that was pulled from what you wrote. You had no idea the xbox was outsold in us and europe. The last sentence in the quote pulled from your post shows you did not know. You were so biased you actually thought the xbox sold more and now cant admit to being wrong. Are you denying that you wrote that???? Its not worth my time responding to someone who sits and lies about what you said.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 26 Nov 2005 @ 3:42

3526.11.2005 5:44

You understood me. What I meant to say that xbox didn't lose in u.s. or europe, they just sold less consoles. But in Japan they really lost the war, because they didn't sell even a million units.

3626.11.2005 6:16

xbox360 will sell a lot more then PS3. 1.Most of the bugs wil be fixed by then. 2.Price will be lower. 3.More games

3726.11.2005 8:23

If anything I can see PS3 having more technical problems. I mean they are using a new processor that most of the public has nevered used. Can you imagine what kinda problems will arrise from the PS3 with all new specs. Atleast with the Xbox360 the game developers can are use to the game engines and software language that MS employs.

3827.11.2005 12:53

I bought an Xbox 360, & actually sold it to a friend hours later. A friend and myself went to Best Buy around 11:30pm Monday night, got in line & started waiting. People waiting in line kept everythin organized, everyone had to sign a list, due to a rumor that the store only had 50 Xboxes. My friend bailed out about 1:30am. I stayed, frequent naps in my car got me through the night. Many people had to seek shelter in their cars because of cold temperatures and rain. The store only had 50 consoles total. At 7:00am the store started handing out tickets to everyone in line, & the guy in front of me got the last premium ticket. I was forced to purchase a core, (I could not believe that everyone in front of me took a premium ticket). Aside from me not owning an HDTV, I was very unhappy with Microsoft and this whole launch thing. Why weren't all the packages just one way? It should've been all cores or all premiums. We all waited, why should some of us be penalized. I bought Madden & Live, they didn't impress me at all. In my opinion, this whole 360 thing was rushed, that includes the launch, and the hardware and games. Perhaps if I would've bought something other than sports titles, I propably would have been impressed. I had PS2 since it was launched, I bought an Xbox mid 2003. I really enjoy them both for different reasons. I think PS2 is the king for sports games. Graphically the Xbox is better, and I usually reserve it to adventure or RPG's. I take Xbox Live over PS2 online. My Xbox hardly ever gets any work, due to PS2 Madden, but still even though it just collects dust, it's a good machine. Instead of people wanting to see one manufacturer fail and the other succeed, ya'll should hope for Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, & whoever else to well. The better these companies do, the more competiion between them. The better they compete, the better more polished products we get to choose from. And back to that 360, I plan to buy another one in about 1-2 years from now. After the bugs are worked out, and it has an established library. Hell even when PS2 came out, I only had 1 game for about a year. Really good games didn't start to roll out until Metal Gear, & GTA in 2001. Thank You

3927.11.2005 12:55
Reasons?
Inactive

Both are completely custom but one is more prone to problems. The Xbox 360 was completely rushed to market for Christmas, the system as a whole as is Xbox Live for 360. The bugs are natural, and they are just still here ebcause Microsoft has only had 3 years to work on it. Sony's PS3 aside form getting the right BD drive ready is in the exact same state Xbox was launched in, but SOny ahs always dedicated more effort and more time to solid products. PS3 is getting almost 6 years from them and shouldn't suffer the same widespread problems. You can feel from everything to the bugs to the flexability of the operating system that it was just thrown out at us. Aside form a monstrosity of a power supply and the sheer size of another microsoft console, serious heat build up, and a POS locked down OS and some seriously overpriced accessories it's a beautiful system. Aside from being really really pissed off that Perfect Dark Zero takes 2 hours to beat on each difficulty setting, and the serious lack of online fun, I am enjoying both my Xbox 360's quite a bit. Mine are problem free and the only thing I want to do is punch Bill Gates in the face for charging money for online download skins and gamer pics. Hell, I'd beat him within and inch of his life for his little "Microsoft Points" bullshit. Thanks for the free Xbox Live Gold month, but if the mic keeps echoing and PDZ keeps lagging I won't buy into a subscrition.

4027.11.2005 15:31

every one is talking about the xbox and the ps2 and how the ps2 sold more so it must be better.Lol in my humbel opinion the xbox kills the ps2 the 90 mill ps2 sold just showes how many more stupid people there are in the world.As for the next gen consols the previos consoles have nothing to do with the succsess of the next gen wars.I own a xbox360 after spending way to much money.But iam satisfied with this new console and have experienced no problems or gliches. I will get a ps3 when it comes out and then and only then will i decide which is better of the two.But for me the number of consols sold means nothing its all in the games and the gamer playing them.It all depends on what you like. And thats all i have to say.

4127.11.2005 15:45

i lied i have more to say. a question for xbox 360 owners. dose your 360s get very warm after the first 10 mins of game play or is it just mine.

4227.11.2005 17:31

Rikoshay: You are not correct, the only reason that I bought the 360 was because it could become the center of my home theater setup. Being able to stream internet radio, movies, music, and coupled with a decent DD2 decoder, this system has become THE center for my entertainment purposes. So I guess that some people do buy video game systems for reasons other than to play the damned games. maxxjulie: It does. Sorta. The 360 can be set to stream any video that your Media Center PC will play. so DivX and XviD are ok, so are ogm if you convert it to a single audio stream AVI. Here's a thought. PS2 came out a lot earlier then the original XBOX, right? People had a choice at the time between a Nintendo 64,Playstation, or the BRAND NEW PS2, Yeah it sold a lot. Personally I have owned EVERY game system since the nintendo. They all have their good and bad points. (Where the hell do I put my HDD in my new slim PS2? yeah, way to stand behind your products) October of 2000 - PS2 September of 2001 - XBOX/GameCube Now, here are my thoughts: At the launch of the PS2 gamers were already hooked on games that had been developed for the system. You couldn't get that on the current-gen Nintendo 64, so gamers flocked out and bought the only system available. The PS2. At the launch of the XBox, many people were already worried about it because it was Microsofts first attempt at a stand alone gaming console. I recall lots of jokes about the "Blue screen of death" from 95-98se OSs. But then they busted out with this power house system that graphically put sony to shame. Why didn't they sell as well? (I include the Nintendo GameCube in this question) People had already sunk money into the PS2. And as a decenct percent of gamers (console) are 15-, how many parents are going to buy their child a new console every year? Microsoft did get spanked, but in my opinion it was because they couldn't get decent third party support untill the end of it's life-cycle. Best game on Playstation? Final Fantasy (take your pick) Best game on the Xbox? Halo (again, you choose which) See the difference? Sony's best game was by a third party developer, Microsofts best game was by an in-house dev. Good things for Microsoft: The utter lashing it took with the xbox should be corrected. They have most of the influential Japanese developers (not subsidiaries of sony) working on titles for the 360, smart move. They got their stuff out of the gate first. Now, 360 may have some problems/glitches/malfunctions. But I do have to say, my 360 played the first game and dvd movie that I put into it, something that I can't say for the PS2. I will most likely save to buy a PS3, just because I am a tech geek when it comes to gaming, and I want to see what that cell will do. But guys, let's not say "F*CK XBOX! THEIR SH*T is already breaking" Sony had the same problems. My respect for each system: Nintendo - You dominated the home gaming market for 7 years.... Damn Sega Genesis - You gave me Sports Talk Baseball (1st voice in games) Super Nintendo - Mario is back and badder than ever. Sega CD(32x as well) - Ummm... CD's are good... Thanks. Nintendo 64 - Mario is once again back, and in 3D! Goldeneye is the sh*t Playstation - You gave me Final Fantasy VII, and it looked badass! Single-handedly got me hooked on RPGs. Sega Dreamcast - You gave me voice recognition. A bold move on an under-appriciated system. PS2 - More RPG goodness, badass sports. Xbox - The only way to console game online. FPS's galore. Action games never felt so right. GameCube - Mario is Back, and CLEANER than ever. Resident Evil the way it's meant to be played! Xbox 360 - You let me interact with my gaming community so easily, and are simply the best console I have had to date.(Nov 27th 2005) Playstation 3 - I don't know. Give me GT5 and we'll be good. As you can see, I like all of these systems, but with Microsoft trying so hard to do a 180 on it's previous campaign, I do see hope for it's future. Here is something that I am SURE of, none of you can know which system will do better untill the PS3 and the Revolution are launched. saying "Sony is gonna destroy MS!" "360 Ownz PS3" it's all speculation. Get over it fanboys! Thanks guys!

4327.11.2005 18:15
Reasons?
Inactive

Of course Xbox has higher performance than PS2, it was released almost two years later. And of course PS2 has Higher sales, it was released almost two years sooner. Yeah, my 360 get's damn hot, do not block those fans or put this thing in an AV rack without a completely open back.


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

4427.11.2005 21:17

This is *ing rediculous(spelling?) you would think, that these consoles, would be bug free, couldnt they have did a test run of a hundred or so and tested them all? On xbox-scene i have heard complaints of overheating GPU, and overheating PSU (which on a seperate note i would like to add, is HUGE!!) People with overheating PSU's have to elevate them above ground to prevent them from overheating and overheating GPU's have to just turn the box off and let them cool down or they will get horrible video problems. If i had one i would watercool it, i think that would be cool, and i hear the fans are loud anyway.

4527.11.2005 23:41

Quote:
Sega Genesis - You gave me Sports Talk Baseball (1st voice in games)
First voice in games I heard was on c64, a ghostbusters game. At the start screen you get this awfully bad quality male voice saying "ghostbusters", but it was quite impressive those days.
Quote:
saying "Sony is gonna destroy MS!" "360 Ownz PS3" it's all speculation. Get over it fanboys!
I agree with this. I'm sick and tired of hearing fanboys, who say "ps3 has better games" like the system was out already.

4628.11.2005 7:08
Reasons?
Inactive

The Xbox 360's heat sinks are watercooled, they have standing water in the heat pipes to increase their performance. A radiated system that kept cold water flowing through would be too big though. My 360 does generate alot of heat, but don't get too excited, it works just fine as long as you provide it a decent spot, which isn't hard. You have to remeber that this thing has more power and generates more heat than most PCs and is all compacted into that little package, it has to generate heat, it has to get rid of it very efficiently.


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

4728.11.2005 9:12

This message is for Reasons?, just curious, how did you research this. . . "The Xbox 360's heat sinks are watercooled, they have standing water in the heat pipes to increase their performance." And, according to you, do you think that's going to do the trick to prevent these 360's from over-heating? Or would it simply be best to keep this unit in a totally non-enclosed area? On a side-bar for everyone else: For those who are trying to predict what's going to happen. . . I agree with the people that say this: Stop comparing the 360 & PS3. The PS3 is not even out yet. So, quit making your assumptions until you've got one of each system. Then & ONLY then, can you make a rational, critique' of the two & THEN we would welcome your opinion(s). . . But until that PS3 comes out, those fanboys (of either unit) that say 360 will kick it's butt OR vice-versa, you're really just sounding like an uneducated consumer who's opinion has little or no credibility. Stop trying to compare what is not comparible as of yet. . .It's like saying a 2006 Ford will kick a 2007 Chevy's ass. Maybe not, we don't know how that 2007 Chevy is going to be equipped. It quite frankly sounds biased (i.e. from a fanboy) and stupid.

4828.11.2005 9:28

Quote:
Stop comparing the 360 & PS3. The PS3 is not even out yet. So, quit making your assumptions until you've got one of each system. Then & ONLY then, can you make a rational, critique' of the two & THEN we would welcome your opinion(s). . .
I've been trying to say this for a while, but nobody listens, because "ps3 has better games" or "xbox 360 ownz ps3".

4928.11.2005 9:33

Ha-Ha arcanix we feel your pain! :)

5028.11.2005 11:22
Reasons?
Inactive

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/xbox-360/xbox-360s-sexy-innards-136445.php There is a quicky link I just found, I knew it was watercooled from looking at the heat sink design, but if you won't take my word for it, there is a link that confirms it. You also have to assume they are using this method of cooling from the spec sheet and looking at the venting and two 60mm fans. A novice computer scientist or computer engineer can see that the thermal efficiency within the box and pictured heat sink is would sufficiently be transferred by air alone. I really hate it when I have to take 5 minutes out of my life to provide someone a link who doesn't believe me.

5128.11.2005 12:51
dvdigital
Inactive

Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- People, Why don't you just take 600 dollars, buy a computer, take 200, buy a 6800gt and bam, you got something that can do what a x-box 360 Platinum can, AND download porn. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a very good reason why console systems even exist. Because they are dedicated machines for 1 purpose, playing games. PC gamming is very funny. The game code can not be dedicated like on the 360, has to be written for 100's of x86 configurations. Not to mention the Operating System. Same issue, the OS is not dedicated which the 360 has a dedicated embedded OS. All in all the Xbox 360 even out performs most in not all retail HIGH end PC's.

5228.11.2005 13:05
dvdigital
Inactive

Quote: ----------------------------------------------------------- A computer is the best gaming "console" me thinks. ----------------------------------------------------------- NOT! not dedicated to playing games. Only a console that is dedicated to playing games is better.

5328.11.2005 13:22
dvdigital
Inactive

Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------- I Say wait untill the much better Playstation 3 comes out not only is it going to be better it will have a blueray player which everyone will eventually have to buy or HD/DVD but most likely blueray not only that do you really trust BILL GATES stupid microsoft lol -------------------------------------------------------------- Game developers do not even take full advantage of DVD technology on Xbox and PS2. DVD9 is capable of 8 gigs which is available for XBOX and PS2. So what makes you think the PS3 will be better cause of Blueray technology? The technology is only good if game developers know how to take advantage of it. It's not all about what's on paper boy's and girl's. P.S. I will trust Microsoft faster then a Japan company. USA! USA! USA! USA!

5428.11.2005 13:28

is the gpu water-cooled as well? thats what i was complaining about also the overheating psu but we'll leave that one alone)

5528.11.2005 13:34
dvdigital
Inactive

Quote: ----------------------------------------------------------------- is the gpu water-cooled as well? thats what i was complaining about also the overheating psu but we'll leave that one alone) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Yep Microsoft built a proprietary liquid cooled heat sink for the 360. Don't think it water based though.

5628.11.2005 13:39
dvdigital
Inactive

Don't own one yet, So I am not sure. If any it mite have just a simple heat sink on it.

5728.11.2005 14:03
dvdigital
Inactive

Quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm a pc gamer so I don't really care who wins the console war this time around but I'm beginning to wonder did Microsoft launch too soon? Not many people have hdtvs yet and I was watching my friend play with his 360 on a pretty nice but non HDTV and I wasn't impressed at all but then I'm used to desktop screen resolutions of 1280X1024 and up. ------------------------------------------------------------------- PC gamming will be around still for a while. But will eventualy fade into almost nothing. The only reason I still use a PC for gaming is for RTS games. Wait until consoles add mice and keyboards as a standard. That will further open the doors for RTS gamming on a console. Anybody for the next Command & Conquer on Xbox 360?

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 28 Nov 2005 @ 14:04

5828.11.2005 15:00

I am not a fanboy by far. I loved both the x-box and ps2. I still have my original ps2 but i did have to send my x-box in because it overheated and it was scratching my disk everytime i played them. Like father like son, I bought an xbox 360 when it came out.(my wal-mart had 6 copies) i got the premium, madden next-gen, and perfect dark zero. I beat perfect dark zero same night i got it because my hard drive wouldn't work and i couldn't save and didn't want to start over(it was only a 2 hour game). When i took out the disk it was unually hot and it looked like my disk had knife marks on the bottom. i let my 360 cool down when i went to sleep. i got up thinking maybe hardrive would work for madden but it didn't. i just played a few games with my rams. i heard a clicking noise. When i opened it my disk was starting to melt and it had marks. I decided to call microsoft to get a new 360 and the had the integrity to say there is a no return or refund policy on the 360. I was pissed. I am thinking of taking them to court to get my money and then some for the time it is costing me and for the court costs. I am not getting another 360. I hate microsofts guts now. I am going ps3 all the way now. Hopefully same won't happen with that or else i am stuck with revelution.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 28 Nov 2005 @ 15:16

5928.11.2005 15:35

I posted a thread on the X-box 360 weeks before it,s launch, stating that the 360 was aimed at your pocket. All i got was ridiculed by it. If M$ could,nt get the X-box right over a period of 4-5 years, what chance did they have with the 360. Then i posted a thread regarding the 360 power issue. This is common sense:- take a 733 P3 Processor add an insufficient power supply, end up with consoles overheating et,c. From version 1.0 to version 1.6b. The same company now decide to put a 3.2 gig processor in a small case boasting all these fantastic graphics et,c et,c. The only people to blame is the clowns that are buying them. If you put a 3 gig processor in an ATX tower it can overheat. The moral of this post is this:- Now is the time to buy an X-Box. Chances are your going to get a version 1.4 to 1.6. with a samsung D.V.D drive, Brand-new s-type controller, all for about $160.00. Buy a 360 when some of the power and overheating issues have been solved, and when the consoles are reasonably priced. If you dont own a L.C.D or Plasma T/V then your wasting your money anyway. Over-rated and overpowered. As for MIcrosoft losing money on the consoles, by the look of it they probably will, but they,ll gain it back in software sales. Thats if enough idiots pay the crazy prices for games Too. All of you that had to have 1 more money than sense. This console is Doomed to be a failure, thats why sony are,nt in a rush to release thiers. i love x-box great console-great games-easily modable. But it looks like Sony,s doing the Homework.

6028.11.2005 16:20

Hate to break your heart DVDIGITAL, in regards to your posting: "P.S. I will trust Microsoft faster then a Japan company. USA! USA! USA! USA!" I was absolutely mortified when I was looking at my X-Box today (non 360), only to find that it was made in Communist f-in' China!!!! I pray that I am mistaken, but it is certainly not made here in the U.S. (is that what you think?). As far as trust is concerned, go for what pleases you & not what you think is made in Corporate America. Because it isn't.

6128.11.2005 17:29
Reasons?
Inactive

Holy shit dvdigital, the Xbox 360 can give the $600 7800GTX 512 a good kick in the nuts, much less the cost of the comp you put it in. For $400, don't bitch.

6228.11.2005 17:44

Look, Im tellen ya that Xbox 360 has got it made. It is going to be so much more experienced in the next gen area that it will beat ps3. Plus sony always says there system is better than it actually is. Edited For Offensive Content By Moderator PLUS the 360 has more processors, 3 ,I think while the PS3 only has 2

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 29 Nov 2005 @ 16:16

6328.11.2005 20:57

Wow bballrock, that was the dumbest shit I have ever read. Are you retarded? Seriously? I've seen trailors for PS3 games, and they look as good as the ones for the 360. There are actually interviews with developers who say that the systems are nearly the exact same, regardless of their tech, they run with the same ammount of power. I am actually very excited to see what these two systems can come up with.

6429.11.2005 4:48

bballrock No one minds if you post what on your mind but you need to think about things before you say them. Do you realise that what you said about the japanese is actually a racial comment and how it may be viewed by someone of that decent. It may be fine to you and no big deal but i think it is very innappropiate and ignorant. If i came on the forum making racial comments and jokes about your ethnic background you might not think it a small an issue when you are put on the receiving end of a racial statement as you posted. Total ignorant is all i can say. PS. I am not japenese.

6529.11.2005 6:38
dvdigital
Inactive

Quote: ------------------------------------------------------- --I was absolutely mortified when I was looking at my X-Box today (non 360), only to find that it was made in Communist f-in' China!!!! I pray that I am mistaken, but it is certainly not made here in the U.S. (is that what you think?). As far as trust is concerned, go for what pleases you & not what you think is made in Corporate America. Because it isn't. ---------------------------------------------------------- Ok everybody lets give this guy a cookie for mentioning something that never came out of my fingers. Idiot! Not once did I say that the XBox or the 360 was made in the USA! Just the fact! that Microsoft Made it! and Microsoft IS a company IN THE USA!

6629.11.2005 6:49
dvdigital
Inactive

Quote: ----------------------------------------------------- bballrock No one minds if you post what on your mind but you need to think about things before you say them. Do you realise that what you said about the japanese is actually a racial comment and how it may be viewed by someone of that decent. It may be fine to you and no big deal but i think it is very innappropiate and ignorant. If i came on the forum making racial comments and jokes about your ethnic background you might not think it a small an issue when you are put on the receiving end of a racial statement as you posted. Total ignorant is all i can say. PS. I am not japenese. ------------------------------------------------------- Pearl Harbor man! lol, need I say more. lol, No but on a serious note. You guys here are far too sensitive, grow some balls. And to say my comment is a racial comment is stupid. I am supporting a company in my country. Anything wrong with that?

6729.11.2005 7:04
dvdigital
Inactive

Quote: ------------------------------------------------------- Holy shit dvdigital, the Xbox 360 can give the $600 7800GTX 512 a good kick in the nuts, much less the cost of the comp you put it in. For $400, don't bitch. ------------------------------------------------------- Holy shit reasons? Who's bithing? Not me, just placing some educated information out there. Take a seat you mite learn something. ;)

6829.11.2005 7:21

Hey, hey - - let's not get outta' control hear folks, I need to clarify something: I mentioned the China thing as NOT a racial slur, but rather, it's because I don't appreciate the GROSS amount of importing for Chinese products than we export. It is totally lopsided. The fact that the Chinese government is base on Communism & knows little or nothing about human rights says how narrow minded they are & THAT's what I oppose. It just pissed me off to see the sticker on the bottom of my original X-Box. It seems almost everything is made in China now-a-days. In a nut-shell, for you people that don't understand that - it means loss of AMERICAN jobs. Now for the little turd-buckets (for lack of a better word BBALLROCK), who put up that vile crap about slant-eyes: I'm a UNITED STATES MARINE & a Native American. I appreciate other cultures & their people for who they are. Had you met an actual Japanese person or Chinese (or what have you), you'd know they're pretty decent people. Just like you would have been at one point in your life, you ignorant little screw-ball. Also, please don't use this web-site to spread your bigotry, you don't have the right & nobody else wants to read it. Learn to respect people for some of their DIFFERENCES & maybe YOU wouldn't be living in such a tiny whole in the wall. You're pathetic, & because of losers like you prejudiced keeps on going. PLUS, the Pearl Harbor crack - - you're probably not OLD enough to remember Pearl Harbor or Vietnam or any other War, besides maybe what, Desert Storm or Iraq? Since you PROBABLY didn't serve in any of those wars -either, please remove that from your vocabulary, because you don't have a pot to piss in. For everyone else, I'm sorry that my statement may have inaccurately led you to believe that I hate the Chinese. They're some awesome people, of course, that exlcudes their government. -Lone Wolf

6929.11.2005 7:32
dvdigital
Inactive

Quote: ------------------------------------------------------ The Xbox 360's heat sinks are watercooled, they have standing water in the heat pipes to increase their performance. A radiated system that kept cold water flowing through would be too big though. My 360 does generate alot of heat, but don't get too excited, it works just fine as long as you provide it a decent spot, which isn't hard. You have to remeber that this thing has more power and generates more heat than most PCs and is all compacted into that little package, it has to generate heat, it has to get rid of it very efficiently. ------------------------------------------------------- Damn I wonder how Microsoft pulled this one off with H2o. Thanks for the info.

7029.11.2005 7:47
dvdigital
Inactive

Quote: ------------------------------------------------------- Hey, hey - - let's not get outta' control hear folks, I need to clarify something: I mentioned the China thing as NOT a racial slur, but rather, it's because I don't appreciate the GROSS amount of importing for Chinese products than we export. It is totally lopsided. The fact that the Chinese government is base on Communism & knows little or nothing about human rights says how narrow minded they are & THAT's what I oppose. It just pissed me off to see the sticker on the bottom of my original X-Box. It seems almost everything is made in China now-a-days. In a nut-shell, for you people that don't understand that - it means loss of AMERICAN jobs. Now for the little turd-buckets (for lack of a better word BBALLROCK), who put up that vile crap about slant-eyes: I'm a UNITED STATES MARINE & a Native American. I appreciate other cultures & their people for who they are. Had you met an actual Japanese person or Chinese (or what have you), you'd know they're pretty decent people. Just like you would have been at one point in your life, you ignorant little screw-ball. Also, please don't use this web-site to spread your bigotry, you don't have the right & nobody else wants to read it. Learn to respect people for some of their DIFFERENCES & maybe YOU wouldn't be living in such a tiny whole in the wall. You're pathetic, & because of losers like you prejudiced keeps on going. PLUS, the Pearl Harbor crack - - you're probably not OLD enough to remember Pearl Harbor or Vietnam or any other War, besides maybe what, Desert Storm or Iraq? Since you PROBABLY didn't serve in any of those wars -either, please remove that from your vocabulary, because you don't have a pot to piss in. For everyone else, I'm sorry that my statement may have inaccurately led you to believe that I hate the Chinese. They're some awesome people, of course, that exlcudes their government. -Lone Wolf ------------------------------------------------------- Well said, But no your right I did not serve. Doesn't mean I am not old enough to know human history. Or what was done to my country in the past.

7129.11.2005 8:18
dvdigital
Inactive

Quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I am not a fanboy by far. I loved both the x-box and ps2. I still have my original ps2 but i did have to send my x-box in because it overheated and it was scratching my disk everytime i played them. Like father like son, I bought an xbox 360 when it came out.(my wal-mart had 6 copies) i got the premium, madden next-gen, and perfect dark zero. I beat perfect dark zero same night i got it because my hard drive wouldn't work and i couldn't save and didn't want to start over(it was only a 2 hour game). When i took out the disk it was unually hot and it looked like my disk had knife marks on the bottom. i let my 360 cool down when i went to sleep. i got up thinking maybe hardrive would work for madden but it didn't. i just played a few games with my rams. i heard a clicking noise. When i opened it my disk was starting to melt and it had marks. I decided to call microsoft to get a new 360 and the had the integrity to say there is a no return or refund policy on the 360. I was pissed. I am thinking of taking them to court to get my money and then some for the time it is costing me and for the court costs. I am not getting another 360. I hate microsofts guts now. I am going ps3 all the way now. Hopefully same won't happen with that or else i am stuck with revelution. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmmm, Refund no. Anybody here would tell you that. But they do owe you a repair or replacement. Get it repaired and sell it on ebay as a refurb. If you do it before christmas you mite just break even with what you had spent.

7229.11.2005 8:58

Quote: --------------------------------------------------------------------- lxfanboy: "Xbox did get a royal flush ......" ------------------------------- Ignorant....no wonder I must say that it may be true that the ps2 outsold xbox worldwide.....But it was OUT FIRST console gamers cant wait to get their hands on the first next-gen system...am i not right? By the time xbox came out WHO DIDNT HAVE A PS2...But the tables have turned my friend...look at the demand for the new console now! If ps3 holds out too long it will be in the same situation as its rival was in the last round......TOO LATE>>>>TOO BAD!

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 29 Nov 2005 @ 9:01

7329.11.2005 9:37

Quote:
I must say that it may be true that the ps2 outsold xbox worldwide.....But it was OUT FIRST
Remember dreamcast? It was the first console out in current generation. Sold 10 million units though, but died soon. Actually dreamcast games are released now and then in Japan :o Didn't know that, did you?

7429.11.2005 9:57

Yeah but anyone who anything to do with the saturn and had any common sense would not expect much for the following gen. of sega......well i personally liked the dreamcast...but it could not compete with the other systems of its era.

7529.11.2005 10:06
dvdigital
Inactive

Dreamcast, now that was a console that was a head of it's time. I still have mine.

7629.11.2005 10:30
dvdigital
Inactive

Wow, Think of it guys. When was the last time you went to an arcade faithfully. I'm not talking about once or twice a year guys. Like once or twice a week, like I did back in the day. Consoles are taking over.

7729.11.2005 11:47

All I have to say is why would anybody buy a product from Sony? No matter how good the gaming console. They install root kits as a business practice. Institute draconian DRM methods and generally work toward pushing their agenda to the harm of us consumers. Who wants to financially support that type of corporate thinking?

7829.11.2005 12:46

I was going to post the same thing about the dreamcast being out before the ps2 but arcanix beat me to it. Just an excuse that is all. Not to mention the Sega genesis had a advatage over the SNES b/c it was released first but the lineup of games for the snes put them ahead of the genesis. The same thing happened with the ps2 regardless of it release date. Some say the xbox has better selection of games and then the majority of people think vice versa. That is a big reason in why they outsold xbox even if the xbox had dropped at the same time as the ps2. The same will hold true to the 360 and ps3. I dont think that the 360 being released first is going to be the deciding factor in who ends up with the biggest share of the market. It is about what games people choose to play. That will be the deciding factor.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 29 Nov 2005 @ 12:52

7929.11.2005 12:52

if you have seen the comparison charts, the ps3 and the xbox 360 arent much different in performance, and in most categories, the xbox prevails. the xbox totally owns the ps3 in system bandwidth with 4x more. these systems have the same cpu frequency, the nvidia equipped ps3 has a slightly better video card but xbox will have 512MB of RAM. due to its later release date which is spring 2006, they can learn from the 360 and work out some of their bugs.

8029.11.2005 12:57

most products are made in china for one reason, cheap labour costs. your xbox is most probably made in china. if it were made in usa, it's sticker price of 400 would jump to 600. almost any product is made in a thirdworld country including some of those high-end products like your casio g-shock or your asus mobo.

8129.11.2005 16:17

Any more blatantly offensive comments by anyone will result in banning.


Rich Fiscus
@Vurbal on Twitter
AfterDawn Staff Writer

8229.11.2005 16:51

YEAH!!!




My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33

8329.11.2005 20:49

The only reason that the Dreamcast died as fast as it did was the lack of third party support. Perifs: MadKatz controllers... Developers: Capcom, Sega, EA.... OK, a few good ones, but not many games. The only good thing to do with a Dreamcast now is to run a Linux server with it. The Dreamcast was ahead of it's time. Think about it, here's a cd-based console with online play, a keyboard perif, mobile gaming storage devices, voice recognition, and games that "learn" from you. the only problem was that at the time, people didn't think about wanting all of that. Can someone name me a MUST HAVE game that appeard on the Dreamcast? On another note. Sports Talk Baseball was the first game with voice in game, the ghostbusters doesn't count because it was the intro screen. "Sports Talk Baseball (Sega 1992) - The first game to bring voice to a console game. Play-by-play done suprisingly well by one man, lagging only slightly behind the actual play."

8430.11.2005 2:18

I think if you had to name one must have title for the dreamcast would have to have been Marvel Vs Capcom 2 when it was really popular in the arcades, it is still one of the best fighting games out there since the action in it is fast paced and constantly changing by reversals, snapbacks, assists and everything else that game had to offer with the controller style of the dreamcast but yes for its time the dreamcast was amazing but it did just lack games and advirtisement, and I think since sega released crappy systems like sega cd before that people didnt really trust the dreamcast when it came out and playstation ended up above anything else until xbox/ps2

8530.11.2005 4:47
Reasons?
Inactive

I think you should start banning on the grounds of providing false information. Or being a complete dumbass, and have an auto ban system for when someone has three posts right after their own. dvdigital, you're just throwing some educated information out there eh? Why would an educated person pass up a 1tflop gaming machine for $400, considering they're losing money and giving you tech no one else will sell yet(3 core 6 thread CPU, 512MB GDDR3, damn are you posting from a halfway house by chance?). For $400, the things media capabilities are a good deal. Just a thought...


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

8630.11.2005 5:57

REASONS? Sorry for being such a "green-horn" on this level. But you could break this down in lighman's terms please? "Why would an educated person pass up a 1tflop gaming machine for $400, considering they're losing money and giving you tech no one else will sell yet(3 core 6 thread CPU, 512MB GDDR3. . ." Reason being, I want to take my gaming to a whole new level, but don't understand what I'd need technically. (i.e., what is a '1tflop' & a 3 core 6 thread CPU I know what the 512MB is, but what is the GDDR3?) Also, do you know where I could read some of this stuff to gain the knowledge? Thanks a lot for your guidance!

8730.11.2005 6:22
dvdigital
Inactive

Quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think you should start banning on the grounds of providing false information. Or being a complete dumbass, and have an auto ban system for when someone has three posts right after their own. dvdigital, you're just throwing some educated information out there eh? Why would an educated person pass up a 1tflop gaming machine for $400, considering they're losing money and giving you tech no one else will sell yet(3 core 6 thread CPU, 512MB GDDR3, damn are you posting from a halfway house by chance?). For $400, the things media capabilities are a good deal. Just a thought... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I have yet to see any point to your jabbering Reasons? A (3 core 6 thread CPU, 512MB GDDR3. What does this have to do with the XBox 360 console being a dedicated gaming machine? And what is (1tflop)? lol I see now that youre not dealing with a full desk. Any further posts towards me will be ignored. So do yourself a favor go on Family Feud and duke it out there instead. Over and out...

8830.11.2005 6:38
dvdigital
Inactive

I haven't been saying anything offense. You just got bunch posters here that are too sensitive. They take other posters words and twist them around in their heads so they can make negative sense of it.

8930.11.2005 8:49
Reasons?
Inactive

You can look up every term I gave you in perfct detail for what you need at www.wikipedia.org, also, arstechnica and anandtech will give you some serious technical info, but I take it that's not what you'll understand. TFLOP is total floatin gpoint performance for the whole system, or floating point operations per second, it's how much the system can do. I hope wikipedia has that one. Basically the xbox 360 is far more advanced than computers is some dept. The memory is all GDDR3 which is 1.2GHz about, not positive what it uses specifically. But in short computers run on 400MHz memory and then the high end graphics card swill incorporate some GDDR3 on them. Having th ememory unified to one high speed 512MB GDDR3 pool will increase performance greatly versus the 400MHz memory feeding the GPUs GDDR3. The CPU you are on is more than likely a single core single threaded CPU. For $1000 you can get a dual core that handles two threads and Intel has a dual core for the same price that handles two threads in parralell, but has hyperthreading enabled, for an advertised 4 threads. The Xbox 360 has a three core (You can't even buy a triple core CPU) CPU that handles 6 threads at once (a thread is one stream of instructions). There is alot more to consider, but to buy a comoputer like the XBox 360, it would be in the future and cost well over $2,000. The 360 has a limitation that it is not a full on computer but a dedicated gaming machine with media extention from your PC. It plays music and video, movies, etc. No web browser yet. You still need your regular comp. Consoles will always be the best and most affordable means of high end gaming. You just need to keep a computer handy for homework and internet.


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

9030.11.2005 10:45

I won my Xbox 360 from mountain dew and got it a few days before it came out. after about a weak of using it it pretty much has died. Random crashes due to system failure. When I turn it off and on, it pops up with 3 red lights (indicating its a system issue not overheating or software issue.) Some times I have to wait an hour of flipping it around, banging it, and turning it on and off just to turn it back on to play for another 10 minutes before the next crash. I wish m$ had spent more time testing their product instead of rushing it to the shelves since there are major issues with the system (software, hardware, and heating issues...I'm just lucky to only have one of the problems.) Also you can't really enjoy this system without a HD enabled TV otherwise it looks like below average graphics.

9130.11.2005 11:07

xbox lost sales to ps3 but xbox stil dominated in performance. they costed relatively the same, the xbox looked weird and the ps2 was sexy. but the xbox performed so much better, it's cpu was much faster and gpu was even better. it was the most capable console at the time until the 360 came out. there are people who complain about the 360's flaws but there are more people who didn't have any problems and enjoy it. most new products will debut with faults but those will be worked out as time progresses. microsoft will change and fix bugs using buyer feedback. have faith

9230.11.2005 12:12
jdeboer
Inactive

Yuk. I know all you Xbox fans are on the defence, but let us be honest. Microsoft rushed this system. I hear all this "oh its global launch, something will come up", but thats bs. If microsoft is going to make a system, great. Atleast make sure the damn thing works, come on guys that's day 1 stuff. Honestly, I don't think that microsoft has a clue about where to go from here. I really have issue's with the 360, and here are just some. The same damn controller. WHY are all gamers married to the dual analogs. Think outside the damn box. You find something that works, and they don't bother to try to improve anymore, so lazy. You can no longer compare Nintendo to Microsoft and Sony. Nintendo is the only company making money off their products. Sony and Microsoft are blind to the term "NEXT GENERATION". Next gen does not have to mean 10x the power. Nintendo again leading the revolution. Please do not compare PC to the 360. Apple's and oranges. PC's move at a much highly pace, sorry all you crazy xbox fans, but PC will always be one step ahead.

9330.11.2005 12:36
Reasons?
Inactive

PC's right now are more behind than can be measured in steps. In two years at the LEAST they will catch up, but not for a couple thousand dollars. Sorry but, from a CS student's standpoint, they are not apples and oranges. They are both personal computers. The architectures are different, but they all are made up of the same components and the 360 is fully capable of running any operating system on emulation and can have full fledged OSes designed for it. It is a damn PC, they just are letting you use it as one. Seriously, this is so far beyond a damn PC. If they developed a windows identical operating system for this ppc architecture and let you use it, I could be ripping two DVDs, burning one, encoding two video streams to AVC, and liten to itunes and still type my paper and browse the web with ease and in smooth computing comfort. Face it, if this was x86 hardware, someone would crack it, and I'd be doing some 1TFLOP computing with Windows XP. But for $400, they have to keep you needing and buying a regular PC for al the other stuff, besides media and gaming. Both of my Xbox 360s work flawlessy and I have tested every feature including media streaming and file sharing from Windows XP professional form my laptop and my desktop. I used live to download 720p music videos and played PDZ and Quake 4 extensively. NO PROBLEMS. Dual analoge (And a mouse, but not as good) is the only set up that has ever worked for fps and plenty of other genres. Don't fix something that isn't broke, Nintendo just got shut out of the decent controller arena and. PS2 and Xbox took both feasable stick locations. From a long time gamer of well over a decade, Nintendo has backed down, and got screwed out of a decent controller. Their new concept, I'm sorry, but everyone over 18 (And with an IQ parallel.) agrees it's trash. I am still getting a Rev, mostly because Nintendo deserves it and I just want to play all my old favorites. I would love nothing better than Nintendo to succeed. I have a sense of reality though. Why do I feel Nintendo fanboy above me?


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

9430.11.2005 12:50
jdeboer
Inactive

Hmm well. I wouldn't consider myself the Nintendo fanboy that you make me sound like. I own the gamecube, but I also own a Xbox. I do not agree with your take on the revoltion controller. I don't think that my opinion, or your opinion really matter. I do however think that the opinion of people like Hideo Kojima matter (creator of Metal gear solid). Really maybe u just gotta take a step back and think about where this could go. Read the reviews from imporant* people, not just teenagers who havn't even tried the damn thing. If you do look it up, their is alot of excitment for this revolution. I also like to test other things. I rented a ps2 (hated it), and an xbox. I bought my xbox, and I love the big ol' giant. 360 tho....hmmm. I have heard some reports, and my friends dad works in EA, from what they say, it is underpowered. I will for sure test it for myself.


DEBOER

9530.11.2005 17:10
Reasons?
Inactive

The truely important people are the masses who buy the product. Check this, http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3145643 it kinda puts a damper on things, the room got silent on my side ofthe country when we stumbled on this. Depressing, they must be bankrupt or something. That's what alot of people are assuming. I for one am buying one just for the backwards compatibility, and maybe out of moral obligation to support the company that started the big boom of in-front-of-the-tv gaming.


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

9630.11.2005 17:41

i agree that the xbox360 is better than the ps3. even though sony still has some time to perfect there system, they won't beet microsoft. just look at the ps2 and xbox. xbox clearly has better graphics and is faster and more powerful. now if ps3 would have a hard drive,it would improve it some. so xbox360 has a bug , good. all those people out there that have $400+ to waste on a video game system might think twice. i think you should never buy a system that is brand new. how many ps2s do they have out there, v1- what is it now version 9. now common sence would tell you, you don't want a verison 1. another thing , there is not many games out for the 360. and those games even though pretty good looking are not the best. take the ps1 for example. in the excetion of ff7, alot of the games that came out on it in the very begaining sucked. some of the games almost looked like they could have played on a snes. why are the 360 games 60 bucks, man. well when they have a spicial come out, like with doom3, how much will it be then, 70 , 80. and you people pay it!. ok, this tops it. on ebay... check out the 360. 600,700 bucks and i even seen them as high as 1200. this one guy even showed his reciet from walmart on the page. it said 400 bucks plus like 30 in tax. he has it up for sale starting at 600, with bids!! explain this. are people stupid. i guess some people don't have a walmart. some people can't get off there ass and go to walmart or other places. yes i plan on getting a 360... in about a year, when the price is a third and lots of games and the software to burn games, and it will be a version 5 with no bugs.


joe

9730.11.2005 19:33
Reasons?
Inactive

"i agree that the xbox360 is better than the ps3. even though sony still has some time to perfect there system, they won't beet microsoft. just look at the ps2 and xbox. xbox clearly has better graphics and is faster and more powerful. now if ps3 would have a hard drive,it would improve it some" Lol, I seriously get to laugh my ass off everytime these newbs come along. Honestly, you think you can just come in here and throw out some claims? You've seen the PS3 finished and on screen? (It does have a HD by the way) http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/cell-1.ars http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/cell-2.ars http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-1.ars http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050210-4604.html http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050124-4551.html http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20041129-4421.html http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20030106-755.html http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050629-5054.html http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2453 http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2341 http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=Nzcx http://www.anandtech.com/weblog/viewblogpost.aspx?bid=210 http://www.anandtech.com/weblog/viewblogpost.aspx?bid=209 http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2453&p=2 Chew on that, regardless of whether or not you can understand it, you can get a feel for, PS3 kicking Xbox 360 in the nuts. I never really like to come out and saying stuff like like that, but it's true and you need to herar it.


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

9830.11.2005 21:47

How many times do I have to post this? Quit flaming MS as "Rushing their system to market... if they would have spent longer testing it, it wouldn't have so many problems." Do you realize how many PS2's were sold defective? (how can NO ONE remember "Disk Read Error" ) How about the Totally-Redesigned-Ultra-Slim-Sleek-And-Sexy SlimPS2? Mine melted. IT MELTED! I'm sorry, but a broken OS is better than a burning house any way you look at it. Seriously, you all act like this is some kind of NEW thing that only "morons" at MS would do. New systems ALWAYS have faults, as an avid gamer at the forefront of a new console generation, you take chances buying a version 1 console. Simple as that. No amount of in-house testing will remove all of the bugs/glitches/quirks from a system. Seriously, it should be common sense by now.

991.12.2005 0:19

Hey Reasons?, as EA game developers as well as Final Fantasy developers have stated: "the differences are negligable, aside from the Cell processor being more difficult to program for." - EA/Tiburon "Of course, writing code for a multiple processor unit is difficult.." If the people who MAKE these games can't decide which system is technologically superior, what makes you think that you can?

1001.12.2005 12:49
dvdigital
Inactive

Back, oh oh I see Reasons? is still jabbering. lol, You basically said what I said about the XBox 360 being Superior. So why say I was bitching? I see you just agreed and confirmed everything that I have said all along. Which means you are agreeing with me. My god, was that what you have been tring to do all this time? Is agree with me? You could have said it without saying I was bitching? Hey two words Reasons? (I AGREE) that's all you had to say!

1011.12.2005 13:30
dvdigital
Inactive

Quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yuk. I know all you Xbox fans are on the defence, but let us be honest. Microsoft rushed this system. I hear all this "oh its global launch, something will come up", but thats bs. If microsoft is going to make a system, great. Atleast make sure the damn thing works, come on guys that's day 1 stuff. Honestly, I don't think that microsoft has a clue about where to go from here. I really have issue's with the 360, and here are just some. The same damn controller. WHY are all gamers married to the dual analogs. Think outside the damn box. You find something that works, and they don't bother to try to improve anymore, so lazy. You can no longer compare Nintendo to Microsoft and Sony. Nintendo is the only company making money off their products. Sony and Microsoft are blind to the term "NEXT GENERATION". Next gen does not have to mean 10x the power. Nintendo again leading the revolution. Please do not compare PC to the 360. Apple's and oranges. PC's move at a much highly pace, sorry all you crazy xbox fans, but PC will always be one step ahead. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I strongly disagree The Xbox/360 IS a Computer, The Operating System is just dedicated for gaming. They almost called it the Direct-(X)Box because the development is based on Microsoft's DirectX. The only type of gaming that console's still can't do very well is RTS games. Which is the only reason why I still use a PC for gaming.

1021.12.2005 13:52
dvdigital
Inactive

Quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Please do not compare PC to the 360. Apple's and oranges. PC's move at a much highly pace, sorry all you crazy xbox fans, but PC will always be one step ahead. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok lets think about this for a sec. "Always be a step a head" Ok... How? IBM has the fastest processor available for a consumer product. But guess what? You can't buy it for your PC. It was designed for dedicated hardware ONLY. Caugh... like the 360, Caugh.. Like the PS3

1031.12.2005 18:37
Reasons?
Inactive

You've got to be kidding me, wow, ok 1. SSamurai, no game developer that makes and sells games on multiple platforms will never pick a side, they will always state exactly what they did as to not have one company pissed off. The comment you made is entirely uneducated and this is not a hard concept to understand. 2. dvdigital, how did I agree with you? Elaborate a little. 3. dvdigital, anandtech's articles confirm the PS3s 2TFLOP claim. In overall hardware performance the PS3 is much more powerful. There is no denying the 1TFLOP claim of Microsoft and the 2TFLOP claim from Sony. No one believes you, you are a junior high school student behind his parent's computer without any formal education in this dept.


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

1041.12.2005 21:06

First off, I would like to fix a piece of info I dropped earlier. The Sega Dreamcast did NOT have third party developer EA in their gaming stable. Sorry, my mistake. Hey Reasons? pick up the latest issue of Game Informer. Then stuff your "The comment you made is entirely uneducated and this is not a hard concept to understand." right into your bum-bum. I read it in a game magazine that is dedicated to bringing new information to gamers. It wasn't some comment that I made up. Maybe you should try reading something other than message forums. And if you reread what my earlier post said, it has comments about how it is DIFFICULT to program for BOTH consoles. Albeit for different reasons, the 360 because of the multi-core architecture, and the PS3 for the Cell Processor. And how would flat out stating that your company likes writing code for one system EVER harm you as a developer? Do you seriously think for one second that either MS or Sony will say, "Ohh, Bobby at Square" or "Dave at EA thinks our system is harder to program for, we won't let them release games that can be played on our system, hence losing a share of the console market and our chance to make money" Seriously, get off of your horse man, I have been completely unbiased in my attempts to give people information on this forum. People like YOU, who decide that something doesn't sound very good from their point of view, are the ones making uneducated assumptions. What have I been saying from the beginning? That the Xbox 360 has problems, yes. More so than that of the PS2 when it was first released? NO. Plain and simple facts man. Research it yourself if you don't agree, but don't come up to me and tell me that I am full of shit, when YOU are the one who isn't even checking out whether or not I checked my facts. December 05 issue of Game Informer (sold at any EB Games or Gamestop) has interviews with developers working on games for BOTH systems. And one more thing Sony-Jim. Why do you feel the need to try to belittle others for having different opinions? dvdigital, anandtech's articles confirm the PS3s 2TFLOP claim. In overall hardware performance the PS3 is much more powerful. There is no denying the 1TFLOP claim of Microsoft and the 2TFLOP claim from Sony.

Quote:
No one believes you, you are a junior high school student behind his parent's computer without any formal education in this dept
Do you think of yourself as Un-Official PS3 marketing Engineer? Cause you really sound like you don't care what ANYONE says if it doesn't somehow benefit you. I would like to know what kind of Formal education you have into the technical workings of Sony's next system. Have you seen it perform? Have you play tested it? Sir, I think that, (well, by the lack of understanding of the English language.
Quote:
no game developer that makes and sells games on multiple platforms will never pick a side
Double negatives... BAD!) that maybe you are the junior high kid, hiding behind his mommy, who is fending off the bullies with a wooden spoon. BUT YES, GAME COMPANIES HAVE ALWAYS STATED WHICH SYSTEM THAT THEY LIKE MAKING GAMES FOR! I seriously think that you don't understand what the hell you are talking about. It wouldn't matter what the developers say, MS and Sony will still GIVE them Dev Kits. (Hypothetical) EA says it likes making Sony games, cause it turns out to be easier. Will Microsoft really say, "That's it, Fuck EA. We don't need them or their console selling apps" It's not gonna happen. So I guess that your "The comment you made is entirely uneducated and this is not a hard concept to understand." Is REALLY hard for you to understand. Just own up to it. You don't know what the hell is going on, and that little boy inside of you just wet himself.

1052.12.2005 5:31
Reasons?
Inactive

"I read it in a game magazine that is dedicated to bringing new information to gamers." Game Informer tells you what they said (EA, whoever the hell you said). The question is, would "insert company here" lie to you? "And how would flat out stating that your company likes writing code for one system EVER harm you as a developer?" EA- "Yeah PS3 is the much more powerful system and we will really be bringing far mor graphics enhanced games out on it." - 1 week later - EA - "We will no longer be developing games for the Xbox 360." OR ------------ EA- "Yeh the PS3 is a challege to start working on, we really prefer the Xbox 360"---- a little later-- EA- "We will no longer be developing games for the PS3. You think either multi-billion dollar entity wouldn't (that was close, lucky i caught that forgot the n't after i posted) fire a game developer's ass for 1 up-ing your biggest competitor?** Wow... You also think that EA would never lie to you? huh.... interesting **If it's a large dev they couldn't afford losing, they would probably find a way to penalize them under the table. BUT, from what I am learning in business right now, public statements and how they can and cannot be made for or against your company are generally included in contracts. Having a $ or other such penalization and requirement of statement retraction is a basic component of any contract involving a company like Sony.- But this something you probably don't understand or believe because you don't know macroenconomics from microenconomics much less multi-million dollar contracts bigger than any book you've read. So no, if the developer is one they can't aford to lose, then they probably won't wish them to be fucked like you say. But it is more than obvious to someone with a little secular education that public statements are controlled in contract in a situation like this. Oh, and sorry I don't edit my posts, they may be your life, but I have other things to do too. They've always said what system they like developing for as a company? When?

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 Dec 2005 @ 5:33

Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

1062.12.2005 10:10

Quote:
Oh, and sorry I don't edit my posts, they may be your life, but I have other things to do too. They've always said what system they like developing for as a company? When? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Formerly "cmmnsense", banned for lack of restraint. Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong. Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 2. December 2005 @ 10:33
HAHA. John Carmack (ID software) - "Microsoft made a better choice with processor technology than Sony did" yet at the same time. Rockstar Games (subject of GTA) - "We can't fit our current projects on DVD9s, Sony made a better choice with the BlueRay than Microsoft did" Read some of my posts bud. I'm just giving people info. And as to "They've always said what system they like developing for as a company? When?" How about when you see console exclusive games from developers that make other games cross platform? You don't see that as a choice on the developer's part? One last thing - "You think either multi-billion dollar entity wouldn't (that was close, lucky i caught that forgot the n't after i posted) fire a game developer's ass for 1 up-ing your biggest competitor?" Who is going to fire them? Sony? Microsoft? I don't know what planet you come from, but on this one, unless a developer is in-house, the console manufacturer CAN'T fire them, as the dev doesn't own/work for said company.

1072.12.2005 10:41

U GUYS ARE EFFIN IDOITSS READ UR XBOX 360 MANUAL >>> IT SAYS KEEP IT IN A WELL VENTALATED LOCATION AND A PLUG OUTLET W/ A GOOD SUPPLY AN DUNT PUT IN ON TOP OF ANY THING AND DONOT PUT IT BEHIND A GLASS .... MINE WORKS PERFECTLY >>>>>IdOITS

1082.12.2005 16:00
Reasons?
Inactive

Some 360's are stricken with software bugs, not everyone is affected by the heat issue.


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

1092.12.2005 20:44

Wow Mr. Capslock. maybe you should read the thread before flamming people.

1102.12.2005 23:46
rideman
Inactive

I have just come out of the dark ages and actually bought my kids a ps2 each.The reason i bought them a ps2 and not an xbox was 1 there are more games and 2 i can back up and copy games and use swap magic.Admittedly Halo is a great game but i downloaded it and play it on my pc like alot of other games that come out for xbox and pc.I think one of the big factors of wether the xbox360 or ps3 will come out on top could be down to if they can be modded and play copied games

1113.12.2005 5:54
Reasons?
Inactive

They never said one is better than the other, that's just a little neutral ass kissing one to each side. A flat out "360 is better" comment is what you were talking about right away. That is if those quotes aren't entirely made up, Where they from? EA has to have a contract with both the hardware manufacturer to produce and sell games for it. There is probably a novels worth of reasons that the contract for each game or all of them can be terminated by Sony or Microsoft for. They can "fire" (The hardware manufacturer can legally, or illegally :), stop them from making games for their platform.) them if they violate the contract. Then the dev has to work off of income from two of the companies instead of three. And as far as the single platform games- developers would love nothing better than to make the game for evey console and sell more of them. But Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo can own the platform right to different titles. Microsoft owns Halo, the developer would make mroe money if Halo 3 came out on PS3 and Xbox 360, BUT Microsoft would not allow that.


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

1123.12.2005 6:21

Right guys,I've been working with these 360's for about a month now and am going to be fixing the broken units hopefully,it seems that the power supply could have a problem with overheating (power fluctuations are causing error codes/ram problems),when we were putting the kiosks together for the launch we noticed that the psu has only got a 235w output and for a pc based system as powerful as the 360 i personally do not think its enough added to the fact that there is no fan or appropriate cooling section on the psu,we had about 1% failure (of 1000) and we were just turning them on and off.I think it was just overlooked by microsoft as the psu's were probably tested in a temperature controlled area and not in warm central heated bedrooms etc. I would suggest putting the psu in a draft or near an open window (make sure it's not raining!),i would expect a different psu to be introduced with the v.2. If you read about on the net there are some solutions for this (some have suggested hanging it from a piece of string!). As for the 360/pc debate,if you're willing to spend out a hell of a lot of money for a top graphics card/an amd64 4400/and some decent ram,then you'll have almost the same performance,but you won't get it for the price of a 360 which by the time they're largely available will probably drop in price anyway.I'm a ps fan myself,the 360 is nice though psu problem aside,dvd drive bay's a little flimsy,if you open her up though,there's a nice sata port for a larger drive!,just got to figure out the power pinouts.

1133.12.2005 8:30
Reasons?
Inactive

Doesn't matter, how do you install the driver and use a different sata drive than a proprietary one they will shove down your throat, you don't. They will sell you overpriced bigger ones in the future though. Inside that top box is a standard 5400RPM HDD, they just won't let you do what you want and install a really big one yet.


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

1143.12.2005 23:22

You CAN install a bigger hdd if you don't mind voiding your warranty. get a laptop hdd, buy a HDD enclosure from MicroCenter, or your local computer store, and just solder it to one of the usb ports on the inside of the 360 There was one on Ebay with this feature going for a bit too much (last I checked was over $2000) And the quotes are from the December 2005 issue of Game Informer, "Connect" Section, page 23, 2nd column, two lines down. And Microsoft owns Bungie, who is an IN-HOUSE developer, thus having no say as to who they develope for, and I doubt that Microsoft wants it's best selling game to stop being an exclusive title.

1154.12.2005 1:33

Quote:
and just solder it to one of the usb ports on the inside of the 360
You can use any external hdd, but it doesn't work like teh original hdd. You can just watch pics andstream music from it, that's it.

1164.12.2005 11:01
Reasons?
Inactive

Lol, the Xbox 360 has a special driver (Highly likely more security than that against what you're trying to do) required for every HDD that it will use as a root drive. Go ahead and do it, you'll be able to look at pictures and listen to music already on the drive and that's it. Only drives Microsoft sells you will be treated like real drives on the 360. Proctected content and game saves/live content will only go to certified drives, pre-formatted by MS. There may be a hack eventually though. And that Ebay thing, will be a fiasco when the buyer trys to use it like a root drive, it'l be just like arcanix said.


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

1174.12.2005 18:05

screw this im waitin for the ps3 have you seen the mgs4 trailer for ps3 its freakin sweet graphics if you think any 360 game has better graphics than this let me know.

1184.12.2005 18:59

A local Gamestop outside of Norristown PA told me that their shipment was 10 units. At the Best Buy in the same area I was told that their shipment was slightly more but the salesman would not give me a specific number. Last year I went out to buy my Xbox at around the same time (Dec.)and they were sold out. After Xmas I had no trouble walking into a store and purchasing one. I s this What deja vu is ?

1195.12.2005 12:33

Posting on threads like this is like writing "my race is better than yours" messages in sh1tter stalls. haha

1205.12.2005 15:18
Reasons?
Inactive

Why did you post here then? Are you writing, "Hey, I'm better than you, because I don't post comments regarding these topics, or, or, at least I think I'm better than you...." on this shitter wall?


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

1216.12.2005 2:28

d'ya reckon somebody will write a prog to format the drive so that it'll run games?,personally i didn't own an xbox original although i do repair them,and 20GB (360)is not a lot even if it was able to play games from,alright for pics and movies but i would assume you can put software on them (operating system maybe?),or it'll be a bit useless for anyone with a pc,that's if you can find one to buy!,they're rare as rocking horse shite at the mo,i've tried everywhere i know and can't get one,quite annoying as i handle about 80 a day :( . ps. don't run it in a/v it's crap,high def all the way,soo much difference!

1226.12.2005 4:29
XeBaron
Inactive

Ok guys after all the reported problems; overheating, software errors, disks becoming scratched, and so on, I contacted Microsoft's XBOX division(1-800-4MY-XBOX)and asked them what the hell was happening. I was told that 400,000 XBOX 360s were shipped on the North American Continent and that during shipping and handling a small fraction of them were "Damaged". They told me that the reason people were experiencing overheating problems was alledgedly because the fan units had become lose or were knocked about. Overheating then caused disk read errors, software errors, etc. Also, people were leaving the power adapter brick way to close to the 360, in some cases enclosing them together in a confined space such as as entertainment center, furthering overheating problems (apparently these thing need alot of freakin' air). They assured me that this was only a very small fraction of the XBOX 360s and that there were many happy customers. They told me the 360 comes with a full 90 day warranty covering everything, including technical problems, accessories, etc as I'm sure people know. Is this a cover story? Unlikely,but maybe, you decide. Also, pertaining to the complaining that 360s have scratched disks. This is due to movement of the 360 while running with a disk inside. People are mad that Microsoft isn't replacing damaged disks However in the 360 manual it is clearly stated that the 360 should not change position while running with a disk because it might bring harm to the it. Therefore Microsoft is under no legal obligation to refund damaged disks.

1236.12.2005 5:27
Reasons?
Inactive

There is no crack yet for the 360 drive and storage system. Moving a system with a disc spinning can cause damage Xbox or not, that's common sense. Heat issues are gone if you're smart enough to put the 360 in the right spot and not rest a 300W PSU near it or blocking the fans. I think there is just alot of dumbasses that don't understand, hardware=electrical impedience=heat, and the XBox 360 is high performance, means more heat, durrr. This is a joke 99% or more Xboxs are just fine. The ones that aren't working right are a portion of the mountain dew ones that were givin away really early. I didn't even try to win, because it's obvious these dumbasses are just beta testers that think they're special winners.

1247.12.2005 5:18
XeBaron
Inactive

-Regarding Reasons? last post- I agree, a toungue of truth.

1257.12.2005 11:41

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have an bleep XBOX 360 will not even be 10% of what PS3 will be! And whats with all the "fanboy" bleep?? And the gameplay.. pff ever heard of http://www.gamershell.com ????? PS3 footage has been out for nearly a year!! ur just retarded! read this and weep Processor XBOX 360= 3.2GHz Cell w/ 7 SPEs 2.0 TFLOPS PS3= 3.8GHz G5 w/ 3 Cores 4.0 TFLOPS Memory XBOX 360= 256MB XDR @ 3.2GHz 252MB GDDR3 @ 700MHz PS3= 512MB GDDR3 @ 3.3GHz 512MB Embedded DRAM GPU XBOX 360= 450MHz NVIDIA PS3= 600MHz ATi Best Display X= Single Screen Output 980i Optional P= Dual Screen Output 1080i Optional Network 1000BASE-T Ethernet X= Wi-Fi 802.11 b/g 1000BASE-T Ethernet P= Wi-Fi 802.11 a/b/g 1000BASE-TX Ethernet Audio X= 5.1 Digital P= 5.1 Digital Wireless Input X= x7 on Bluetooth 2.0 P= x9 on 3.4GHz RF Storage X= 20GB Removable HDD 50GB Removable HDD Release P= SPring 2006 X= November 2005 Dimensions X= 13.5" x 3.25" P= 10.25" x 2.5" http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/748/748475/vid_1121807.html?mu=htt... copy and past that and see what im on about, omg killzone on ps3 so looks SOOO freekin awusome!! and this 2 http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/748/748488/vid_1121843.html?mu=htt... OMFG if u watched the above video, YES IT IS PS3 GAMEPLAY!!!!! lol Xbox 360? no chance ps 4eva

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 07 Dec 2005 @ 12:20

1267.12.2005 11:48

FULLSCREEN THE VIDEOS TO GET THE BEST EFFECTS!!! Motorstorm, i am soooo gonna get that!!! Doesnt it look like a film or something?? SO FUCKING REALISTIC!! TOO REALISTIC!! i dont think xbox360 has anything like this! See ive played on one and i dont see the differnce between psp and xbox360 (YES PSP!)!


Sex is like mcdonalds........im loving it!

1277.12.2005 12:11

Quote:
X= Single Screen Output 980i Optional P= Dual Screen Output 1080i Optional
There is no such resolution as 980i. You don't even know what you're talking about fanboy. Last time I checked ps3 supports up to 1080p and x360 up to 1080i, yeah that's right. I bet you dont even know the difference between interlaced and progressive scan?
Quote:
lol Xbox 360? no chance ps 4eva
You say this and don't know what a fanboy is?
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 07 Dec 2005 @ 12:15

1287.12.2005 12:20

Endrit Let's mind the language and stop the name calling.




My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33

1297.12.2005 12:57
Reasons?
Inactive

Holy crap, those specs are so messed up, here is some real ones: Xbox 360 1TFLOP- http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/xbox360/powerplay.htm PS3 2TFLOP- http://www.us.playstation.com/PressReleases.aspx?id=279 Browse a little for an actualy list piece by piece. But you get the idea how bogus that crap he was saying is.


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

1307.12.2005 16:27
jdeboer
Inactive

are you outta your damn mind. No doubt the ps3 will be stronger (IF its all true, i mean just look at how much they exaggerated the ps2 power), but dude that killzone footage is as pre-rendered as it gets, and so is the other one u retard. You actually think thats gameplay??, YOU OUT CHU MIND


DEBOER

1317.12.2005 17:08

Is it just me.. Or does the PS3 look like a George Foreman grill? The controller looks like a boomerang too. I'm not trying to bash the system (Seeing as how it's not out yet) but if I wanna play with a boomerang tied to a grill endorced by a retired boxer, I'll tie a dang boomerang to my parents' George Foremand grill and giggle like a maniac while doing so.


KANADA BER ALLES!

1327.12.2005 17:57

jdeboer I just warned someone about name calling so let's put a little more thought into your next post.




My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33

1337.12.2005 19:49
Reasons?
Inactive

Until we play the PS3 we won't know if it's good or bad, come on, these guys are japanese, the controller just migh tbe something great :) I am so exicted about PS3 too, because it will be running LINUX, I'll be really pissed thoug if it isn't a full on open-source version of say, knoppix or unbuntu or suse, on the HDD. I don't care if the root OS is where evrythign happens, but as long as I can boot a full Linux OS on top of OS 0 I will be super happy. The cell will be so useful for video encoding and DVD backing up and everythign else all at the same time.


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

1348.12.2005 10:32

Linux is good, but personally, I prefer Redhat as my distribution of Linux. If it were Redhat on the ps3, that would be enough to get me to buy it. XD

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 08 Dec 2005 @ 10:33

KANADA BER ALLES!

1358.12.2005 12:02
Reasons?
Inactive

If you know how to change things to they way you want, they are all pretty much the same. Some have built in support for more apps and more add-in hardware like tv tuners etc. but they are all spin offs of each other and if you want, can get whatever you want on any of them. I like Knoppix for it's adaptability to mythtv, tv tuning/recording, and ubuntu is really easy to use, and Suse is more proffesional. If it wasn't for Windows I would have all three. As of now, Windows is the best. I guess what I'm getting at, is , RedHat will probably be avail, or someone will make it look and work like redhat someday.


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

1368.12.2005 12:55

The only reason I still have Windows is for my games, Rhapsody, and RPG Maker XP. I asked my UNIX teacher if there was any possible way to run RPG Maker on Linux, but he said no because DirectX is windows only. My laptop however, that has Redhat on it because I don't need to put massive quantities of music and stuff to customize my RPG on it. What I'd really like to be able to myself, or with a friend, is combine the ps3, xbox 360, and nintendo revolution into one box. I've seen it done with PS2, Xbox and Gamecube, but I'd like to be able to do it with the new three. I know for sure I'm getting 360 and Rev, but I'm still not sure about the PS3, seeing as how I have a bad history with expensive sony products.


KANADA BER ALLES!

1378.12.2005 16:30
Reasons?
Inactive

windows emulation will run on top of linux and allow anythign to run, I don't know if the latest and greatest patch or something protects it, but wine runs almost anything there is no substitute for windows when you reach a prfessional need for computing, Windows XP proffesional and microsoft small business 2003 are irreplaceble as much as I would like to support linux at best people have two computers one with each, and mac users can get away with MS office for mac software, but after awhile, you realize, you need windows and their software and their third party support to function in the world outside web browsing and school word documents just a thought


Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.

Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.

Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K

My advice: Wait for PS3.

13810.12.2005 17:46

I already know of wine, but it still doesn't support the only game I really play right now, so until then, I'm gonna need to keep Windows.


KANADA BER ALLES!

13911.12.2005 2:39

My ex is a Manager at a Wal-Mart in South Carolina. The store has sold all of the 24 systems they recieved since the kickoff. But 22 of those systems have been returned because they crashed. After seeing all this, my teenage son has decided he will likely wait for the PS3, and has cashed in his pre-paid certificate to shop for other Christmas stuff...

14011.12.2005 3:31

Man!!!! I did not think it would have been that many returns. I wonder what the total number of systems sold to return ratio has been since the 360 debuted. Anyone know more on the statitics????

14111.12.2005 10:38
Reasons?
Inactive

Yeah, bleep, 22/24, no way in hell. Microsoft released that 3% of Xbox 360s are defective in one way or another. That's 3/100 not 22/24, damn, who would actually believe that, lol.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 11 Dec 2005 @ 12:16

14211.12.2005 12:17

Apparently no one cares about not using foul language. Thread closed.




My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33

14313.12.2005 3:36
XeBaron
Inactive

First of all 22/24 failures sounds like info pulled from your ass. There are plenty of happy buyers of the xbox 360. Those configurations on how the ps3 is compared to the x360 is a load of bs as well. No one is denying that they are goinjg tocome close but as it was said before all the television shots of new consoles are pre-rendered you can't base your ideology off of simple prewiews. As for the ps3 the only thing that really punches the x360 is that it runs with BlueMax, a blue laser instead of a red one. As for the ps3s controllers they are so damn long they look like double vibrators.

14413.12.2005 4:44

Wow--touchy, touchy... True--I can't personally verify the number 22/24--these are numbers I was given by my 17 y/o son, who went from wanting one of these in the worst way, to "...nevermind" and "just gimme my money back" in the span of a couple of weeks. His mother showed him the pile of returned Xbox 360s at the store where she works and he decided it wasn't that important. I'm just contributing what I hear to the forum--methinks XeBaron doth protest too much... (There's a likelihood that Microsoft "damage control" folks monitor these boards as well--it should be easy to tell by their posts...)

14513.12.2005 5:53
Reasons?
Inactive

What happened to this thread being closed, kindof weird it just opend again.

14613.12.2005 9:07

Xebaron...read the post above your last. Chill out with you foul language. This thread was closed. Maybe Neph decided to give it a second chance so lets not screw things up for everyone else who may want to post later. Those number have got to be slightly beefed up. Well, a lot more than just slightly. If that were true that would show a 92% return rate for those 360 consoles sold at that particular walmart.

14713.12.2005 9:20
Reasons?
Inactive

It isn't true, don't worry.

14814.12.2005 8:20

XeBaron's gone. Who's next?

14921.12.2005 1:46

Hey arcanix, do you make sweet love to your xbox everynight? Because obviously your in love with it and nothing else matters. I've never owned an xbox or 360 and have no desire too and I get through life just fine. Why don't you stop crapping on people because they like something else not everyone likes xbox, I know that is a shock to you but you'll just have to deal with it xbox fanboy.

15021.12.2005 2:17

Quote:
Hey arcanix, do you make sweet love to your xbox everynight? Because obviously your in love with it and nothing else matters. I've never owned an xbox or 360 and have no desire too and I get through life just fine. Why don't you stop crapping on people because they like something else not everyone likes xbox, I know that is a shock to you but you'll just have to deal with it xbox fanboy.
Wtf? I posted here like ages ago, correcting that dude who posted totally wrong information. I said I'm not a fanboy, I will buy ps3 when it comes out. But I will also correct someone if he/she makes false/irrational assuptions. Does it make me a fanboy if I know the facts about hd-resolutions and console specs (both 360 and ps3)?

15121.12.2005 3:44

Well honestly there has been times when i responded to something said stating facts. B.c of that i have been called a sony fanboy plenty of times. But if i states facts on the xbox, everything is fine. I think that b.c so many people may support the ps2 or ps3 even when you come stating facts of diff categories of that system some people take that as being a fanboy. Arcanix i understand what you are saying. Stating facts is not fanboy. It is just that somepeople out there see you saying something about a console and take it that you are so biased on one system when you may be stating facts and your opinion that has logical reasoning in your thought process. Example if i state the fact about the xbox not selling lots of units compared to the ps2 then someone will get offended. Honestly that is a fact no matter what system i perfer. The true fanboy is the one that is offended when you states something that is true and evidently it bothers them and they cant accept the truth.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 21 Dec 2005 @ 3:48

15210.1.2006 11:56

hahahahahaha I just came home and my box that microsoft sent me to put my 360 in to ship out to microsoft came in today ... ran upstairs nd got my 360 .. as i was goin down the stairs i fell w/ my 360 in my hands ... I was fine . but i thought maybe i hit sumthing bak in place ..... and I did ... I works perfectly :P

15310.1.2006 16:11

Ummm 22/24 to one walmart store sounds reasonable sicne how many 360s were sold in the US and 3% of that will end up returned.....it seems M$ is trying to pull the whool over plls eyes again....

15420.1.2006 0:49
kishkash
Inactive

I visited the local Game store this morning,looked at the XBox360 display looks a bit dismal,I will give it 12months or more before I decide to buy when all three next gen consoles are on sale.. all the hype has gone off like a cheap bottle rocket, is that it!!!

15528.4.2006 1:15

I've been out of the loop on this thread for a little while now. AND it's sad to see that people are stil whining about "You're biased to Xbox this, or you're biased toward PS that, you little FANBOY." UNDERSTAND, I am a self-proclaimed green-horn, that's right - - an F.N.G. & I've got both X-Box (v.5 I believe) & the PS2. Now, I appreciate all the serious Stats & Technical Data that people have poored onto this site. Hey, for that reason alone, if I look at the Tech Sheets on 360 & PS3, DATA ALONE I could make a rational assessment as to which one I'm going to buy. . . BUT, it's going to come down to the same thing that happened with me on the original units. I'm going to play games on BOTH the new systems, & yeah, I'm going to enjoy the crap out of both systems I'm SURE. But guess what, I'm human - - I'm going to turn on the one that I want to play at that point in time - - I'm going to keep on playing the one that's, oh, what's the word for it again? FUN - which one kinda' gets my rocks off so-to-speak. Do you guys who keep throwing the FANBOY card out there remember that this WHOLE thing is supposed to be about FUN? What's your major malfunctions anyway? Are we not allowed to make an intelligent analysis of how we LIKED one feature over another without appearing as if we are showing bias? Here's why, I find myself looking back & realizing that I played the X-Box many more hours than the PS2, but am totally PO'd that some of the PS2 games aren't available on X. Otherwise, I would have played on it even MORE than the PS2. Did a POS Microsoft corporate person, tell me to say it NO. Is there a Sony corporate going to condemn me for saying this NO. OPINION not bias there is a difference! You guys who keep calling each other names (& this was months ago that I got out of the thread) need to grow the hell up, you sound like a bunch of school girls cat-fighting. (NO, i didn't call you that). This is still about the FUN ain't it??? I'm glad the "COPS" of this site are watching, 'cause you kids really hork me off! It's nice to see people like Reasons?,Kanada00,tommytee & lxhotboy having an interesting/intellectual conversation. Rock on my Brothers! -Lone Wolf


-Bry
(A.K.A.-Lone Wolf)

15628.4.2006 1:28

On a related note: [Nephilim, vurbal & ireland/DVDXCopy Chief -Moderators/bold] Keep doin' what you're doin', by keeping the belligerent ones in-check. You're allowing us old-timers, to talk to the smart guys on figuring out how to play & what's new on the Techie side of things. Yeah, that's havin' FUN!


-Bry
(A.K.A.-Lone Wolf)

15728.4.2006 1:41

LEO1WOLF If you are a old timer then why are you a nood? *L* kidding kidding *L* Sorry couldnt help myself :3 Anyway the 360 is nice but flawed at least the next revistion will be out soon to fix most of the hardware problems,it still alcks the games I want but you know if it had full backwards compality I would have got it sicne I dont have a Xbox yet ;_; Ah well I guess I am better off wating and gettign a Xbox this year and let the 360 come down 100 or 200 *L* I kow the PS3 will be good but I ahve a PS2 so I dont need it ASAP mabye in acouple years lord knows it takes at least a year for a system to get the bugs out *L*


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

15828.4.2006 10:56

Quote:
Keep doin' what you're doin', by keeping the belligerent ones in-check
I'm at your service chief :)


My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33

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