AfterDawn: Tech news

Lawyer: RIAA wants to shut down the Internet

Written by Petteri Pyyny (Google+) @ 29 Nov 2006 22:19 User comments (125)

Lawyer: RIAA wants to shut down the Internet A lawyer defending Net users that have been sued by the music industry's lobby group, RIAA, claims that the evidence -- or actually the lack of it -- in one of the cases RIAA is pushing in courts, if accepted, would effectively shut down the whole Internet.
The lawyer, Ray Beckerman, tells in an interview on DefectiveByDesign about a real case, Electro vs. Barker, in which, the recording industry, in its complaint, doesn't even bother to "specify any acts or dates or times of copyright infringement as the law normally requires". As the case proceeds in the courts, RIAA has made a statement that merely making files available on the internet is in and of itself a copyright infringement. "It was a shocking argument because if it were accepted it would probably shut down the entire internet", Beckerman says.

MPAA, obviously, has put in a brief supporting the RIAA's case. More interestingly, also the U.S. Government has filed a brief supporting RIAA's side in the case.

Source: DefectiveByDesign

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125 user comments

129.11.2006 22:29

Is it a bad thing that this in no way surprises me? I'm getting so tired of hearing about the RIAA and there blasted crusade against piracey.

229.11.2006 22:58

Yet another waste of American time and money. I'm ashamed to live in the same country as these assholes. They actually think they will 'shut down' the internet? That isn't even possible!

U.S. Government has filed a brief supporting RIAA's side in the case.
Note to The RIAA and the US Government: KMA bitches! I, among with billions of others will destroy you and your organization if you attempt even the smallest amount of this!
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 29 Nov 2006 @ 22:59

330.11.2006 0:05

I find this statement very funny:

RIAA has made a statement that merely making files available on the internet is in and of itself a copyright infringement.
Why you say i find this funny. Well they say making files available on the internet is against copyright laws. What happens if its freeware is that against the law :P I don't think so :)

430.11.2006 0:06

umm shutdown the internet? doubt it. but the ability of them to sue without any specific evidence is ridiculous.

530.11.2006 1:28

Someone should sue the RIAA for something. We could start with being stupid.

When there is no more room in hell, the dead shall walk the earth. - Peter - Ken Foree - Dawn of the Dead (1979)

630.11.2006 1:54

OH K"MON!!!!!! NEVER, just give it up, they will never shut the internet down. Piracy is only a general 25% use out of 150.

730.11.2006 3:28


830.11.2006 3:42

They wouldn't do that because look how many business depend on internet sales now just that fact alone will stop this from happening right. Maybe they should shut down the places that help distribute illegal music and movies. There is always that loophole where if you own the original then you can legally make a backup copy.

930.11.2006 4:48

This is the most retarded thing for the RIAA to do. I don't think they will do it, because a whole lot of companies are already connected to the internet as it is. Shutting down the internet will shut down pretty much half the world's businesses. CMON!

1030.11.2006 5:31

There is always that loophole where if you own the original then you can legally make a backup copy.
while that is true in the US, wolf, it is also true that it is illegal to circumvent copy protection for any reason. leaves the consumer in between a bit of a rock and a hard place, eh?

1130.11.2006 6:53

Auslander you are actualy wrong, the law regaurding seciurity decryption does not cover making archival backups of yourown dvds, asper the new dmca exemptions anounced by the library of congress last week. i know on afterdawn they said it doesnt provide that right, but they are wrong it does.

1230.11.2006 6:57

i hadn't heard any new information from the Library of Congress as of last week...i'd like to see a link to this, please.

1330.11.2006 7:20

Sick. Even worse than Micros### saying that every Linux user has some hidden obligations or whatever it was. Some excrement about stealing code from them. It's not bad enough that I live in Poland, a country with a total retard as a president and jerks underneath him; it seems the whole world is insane. Politicians are making asses of themselves. MS and RIAA are going beyond that. And yet they still hold power and spend our money.

1430.11.2006 7:38

they are bas as the ACLU

1530.11.2006 8:06

MPAA, obviously, has put in a brief supporting the RIAA's case. More interestingly, also the U.S. Government has filed a brief supporting RIAA's side in the case.
Interesting.... Could it be that there is some sinister plot to rid the world of the Internet in order to stifle freedom of expression and opinion? Conspiracy theorists at the ready please!!!!

1630.11.2006 8:20

Just encrypt ur harddrive with truecypt and have a 30 char password, then when the MPAA or RIAA comes to ur house, sure give em the harddrive, but they can't find a single thing on it,let alone open it in less than a couple decades, no evidence, no proof, in america ur let free, edited by ddp the RIAA

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 30 Nov 2006 @ 12:53

1730.11.2006 8:21

America lives off the internet, the world lives on the internet what are they going to want to shutdown next.

they are edited by ddp

thats all i'm saying

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 30 Nov 2006 @ 12:53

1830.11.2006 8:27

they can take my life,

but they can never take my internet!

in the end, you have to wonder: why could they want to stifle freedom of expression, of opinion, of thought in general? what good is it?

i don't have an answer, but i know that rulers have been doing it as long as there was government, and i know the bigger the government and the deeper it's pockets, the more stifling it can do.

the RIAA and MPAA need to be brought down, somehow, before they can do irrepairable damage.

guys, we have language rules on this site. no matter how irrate given articles may make you, you need to watch what you type.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 30 Nov 2006 @ 8:28

1930.11.2006 9:06

Auslander Its rather simple they can make more money and have more power if the "people" are not allowed to think or express themselfs,and are forced to do only what they say you can do. thats the kind of bland cookie cutter world the corperations want,and they are undermining governments across the world to make their dream of corporate states and "regions" come true.... this is why the governments across the world should smack the media mafia back into their palce,I dont mind a 1% tax on all "offending" items (net,new comps,sound/vid digi devices,blank media) and the governments will make sharing leagle and give some money to poor poor media mafia,this way they can never sue a person again unless they sell "copies"........

2030.11.2006 9:53

Just close the internet...

2130.11.2006 9:56

while we're at it, let's just shut down movie theaters and rental places...hell, let's shut down hollywood and music studios all over. let's do nothing except give our entire paychecks to the industry as a charity so they can live in mansions and drive limos that get thirty gallons to the mile and we can all starve.

to quote sean connery, "suck it." :-P

hmm...maybe we can bomb them?

i know you said that in jest, OneMember, by the way.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 30 Nov 2006 @ 9:58

2230.11.2006 9:59

Close the Internet?....Ha!

2330.11.2006 9:59

Are the RIAA serious?What kind of idiots would want to shut down the internet becuase of piracy,they'll be hipakrits because they use and will always the internet cause the internet is all in power and everybody uses it including the RIAA and if they somehow or immposibly shut down the internet=Oh there will be lots of problems. Idiots.....

2430.11.2006 10:01

Auslander *rolls eyes* I'll take strict goverment regulation to "govern" the corperations thank you.... the reason for the tax is 3 fold pay for itself keep a close eye on the media mafia give a pittance to the media mafia and with that the trade off is all vid/music/programs/media will be free to trade and share on the net,selling copies are still a no no but it could make copying rentals leagle as well. its called balance with a bent leaning to the consumer.

2530.11.2006 10:12

and it would be a wonderful thing, but those with money will never let it happen. it would take a war.

power corrupts; once those who rise to the top realize they are there, they won't give up anything and only want more.

2630.11.2006 10:21

Originally posted by Auslander:
and it would be a wonderful thing, but those with money will never let it happen. it would take a war.

power corrupts; once those who rise to the top realize they are there, they won't give up anything and only want more.
even a more realistic version non online ditro of more than 5 copies,selling of copies prohibited,copying of rentals as illicit as it is now, just to make online vid/music shareable and make any program(app,game,rom,ect,ect) more than 3 years old shareable it still wont happen the corperations pretty much rule all now adays....

the media mafia is jsut that a mafia and thus I ignore everything they have to say.

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

Check out my crappy creations

2730.11.2006 11:09

even if they ever attempted to shutdown the internet, don't you think people will find ways to still get internet access, i mean since it's easy to get about anyting else for free over the internet. NO WAY that will ever happen, E-Commerce is so huge, RIAA should be not allowed to deal with the internet issues after making a statement like that, so rediculous

2830.11.2006 12:58

pablova & ahjukhir, watch the language, posts edited

2930.11.2006 14:14

LOL, back to BBS

3030.11.2006 14:20

you heard the song "Video Killed The Radio Star"...Now, there will be "RIAA Killed The Internet Stream"

3130.11.2006 15:02

Ya...shut down the internet, next close the roads, then stick microchips up our A$$es...pathetic

3230.11.2006 15:34

It's interesting; after reading this, it seems that everyone got hung up on one key exxaguration, but missed the reality. The RIAA is pushing for a court-ruling presidence. If they can get a court to approve a statement of this nature, and support it with no definition, then the courts will have to continue upholding it with no further clause for lawsuit after lawsuit, until someone can legitimately announce that it is inconstitutional. Now, some people would argue that it already is, and I don't even want to go there, because we can argue feelings all we like; but copyright is copyright. Bottom line here; is that if you have ANYTHING with a copyright on it, that you haven't paid for rights to, they'd like to sue you. Did you use a picture of a movie in your sig without their permission? They'll sue you. Did you reference a song, to which you don't own the rights? They'll sue you. Did you mention an album without explicitly owning the title itself? They'll sue you. The trouble is, things have gone far out of hand. The RIAA(etc, and the like) have gone mad. They're not trying to make people pay for the albums, and the movies. They're trying to be paid PER THE NUMBER OF TIMES PEOPLE USE THEIR MEDIA. It's a statement that's starting to surface from high up sources, like Universal, who has stated they prefer a system where they are paid on a PER-PLAY basis. If something of this nature were to go into effect, you would pay five dollars EVERY TIME YOU WATCH YOUR FAVORITE MOVIE. You would pay fifteen dollars every time you skipped around a cd in your car. You would pay five bucks every time you want to watch your favorite episode of a tv show. I realize that the prices I just gave out are terribly inconsistent, but they match up pretty well with what the industry is trying to get for their online delivery services. It's absolutely ridiculous, the measure they are going to, in order to make more money. Using the shield of "We're trying to enforce our legal rights". They're blindly creating new dictation in the courts, it remains unchecked, and as long as it continues, it becomes legal statute. I am appalled that such a shotty statement on the RIAA's part was actually BACKED UP BY OUR GOVERNMENT. I would personally like a list of who specifically wrote that, so that I can draft a letter to my congressperson, my governor, and to legislation in general expressing my disgust with this. Not that it will do any good. The industry has more money to pay for lobbying than we do. And we continue to vote for politicians who say one thing and do the exact opposite once elected. I honestly wonder, how many of these politicians REALLY intend to do the things they say when they get elected, and then get distracted by corporate rewards and incentives; versus how many of them actually never intend to do these things in the first place? It's really sickening that we've reached this state.

3330.11.2006 16:57

The first thing I thought when they said that was "Oh my god they can't do that, can they?" but after reading all of these posts and catching my breath, I agreed with most of the replys. I believe that the chances of the RIAA shutting down the internet are one and one billion, they would have to pull a rabbit out of their hats (And I say that politely) and everyone would have to be compensated with something better, like for example, getting rid of currency, totally eliminating the copywrite infringement act all together, because you can't sue anyone if you don't have any money. Infact everything would be free. Then and only then we would be able to get rid of the internet, because the internet basically runs on money and technology. So why not just sit back and relax, and let the RIAA flap thier gums and say that they are going do something drastic like that. (Instead of plotting unspeakable acts against the RIAA) Plus I believe the internet is a multi perpose realease of all kinds, it is a freedom of expression saying "here! this is what I like" (sharing music, movies and software) Giving away free music and sharing full version software, movies, text, and pictures is not Illegal, making actual money from it is Illegal no matter how you try to discribe it, it's still illegal. That's all I'm saying, I do not wish to imcriminate myself or others.

3430.11.2006 17:24

RIAA and the USA! Shutting down the internet? There is more of a world out there than RIAA or the USA with their eager legal beagles dictating to us. What we need to do is a world wide boycott of anything that smacks of the noted J..ks. This ongoing battle on their part to control us when they claim that freedom is their moto..jah right, it makes me sick!

3530.11.2006 18:05

people, people... the RIAA did not say they wanted to shut down the net... THE OPPOSING LAWYER SAID THAT! My gosh, I hate the RIAA as much as the next guy... but I also know not to trust EVERYTHING that a LAWYER says as well as not believing EVERYTHING I READ.. The lawyer did not specify WHAT files the RIAA was talking about. If the RIAA was talking about Copyrighted MUSIC files then duh.. placing them on the net for others to download is...GASP...a copyright violation! HOWEVER if I place the files on a secure server where only I can access them and they are MY OWN legally acquired music files then of course it is not a violation. People need to learn to read! lol

3630.11.2006 20:25

handsom So basically any fair use or public conversation of it that they do not like they want to sue over and not have to back it up in court? while its true "closing down the net" is a misnomer its a good headline here my version of it US gov sides with RIAA,shut down the net(not really but almsot) bascily it boils down to the Media mafia having the right to take people to court without proof and wanting to use the courts as part of their PR depo....they are wasting tax payers money the same way the illicit games/violence as porn bills are.... duckNrun yes..and no.. They want to be able to have control over it and close anything down that they see infrging on them from clip sites to review to fair use anyhting,but mostly in this they want the right to bully people without having leagle standing. and the goverment would not mind if the net went away its easier to control the sheeple like that :P

3730.11.2006 20:32

@ zippy well said and very true!

3830.11.2006 20:42

duckNrun Moments I have...when medicines I do not 0-o *wanders off to swat at the little green voice in my head* 0_o LOL

391.12.2006 7:31

Shut down the internet? Don't tell me you didn't see it coming...

401.12.2006 8:23

Yes absolute power cerupts absolutely. But I do not think that any organization can "shut down" the internet -World Wide Web- however IF something like that should happen, Usenet/BBS would become very popular again. But this time with really cool GUI's instead of orange on black screens... LOL. What a tangled web we weave....

411.12.2006 8:43

Be sure to turn out the lights if you're the last one out.

421.12.2006 8:49

Semi on/off topic... A recent environmental report states that the entertainment industry is one of the worse polluters on the planet. The act of making movies and all the special effects are the source of the pollution. In a response to the report, MIAA lawyers that represent the studios stated that if any restrictions on the industry were put into place, the studios will have to move out of the country and the states will loose billions in revenue and thousands of jobs. Point being that the entertainment industry thinks nothing about going on a rampage against any other industry sometimes to the point of running some company out of business or out of the country and putting hundreds of people out of work. It seems to be different when the studios are on the hot seat and they are the "bad" boys. Sort of a do as I say, not as I do as far as the studios are concerned. Must be nice to live life on a one way street...........

431.12.2006 9:12

One thing I'm curious about, is, if they win here, and continue to do so, will they be forced to reduce prices? I mean, since they already factor piracy into their prices, and it's already been reduced, will they be forced to lower prices.

441.12.2006 10:03

What a bunch of jibbering, self inflating winkers. The tiing that makes me wonder is, if piracy is iradicated tomorrow, then would the industry ( music and movies ) suddenly drop the price? seeing as they say they have to charge so much to cover the losses, surely we would get fantastic deals no? Errrr no, what complete BS. F'you RIAA.

451.12.2006 10:16

Dufas, it would be nice to live on a one way street... as long as it's one way in the direction you wish to travel... and it almost always is when one has the means to be able to change it to suit their needs.

461.12.2006 11:13

dufas which is why the whole industry has become the Media Mafia,not all things "in the family" but sometimes you wonder if they do anything good 0-o crappy movies crappy music over priced ect,ecte,cte,ct

471.12.2006 11:32

I find that maybe it's the right answer. "Shut down the internet" I mean think about it, just for a minute. If the internet were to be shut down then we can put an end to all these arguments, no more court cases, and one hell of an "INTRANET". Oh, did I forget to mention, by invitation only.

481.12.2006 11:49

You guys forgot about our HERO that will neverstand for it because he will lose billions and his name is Bill Gayes.

491.12.2006 11:50

SORRY! Bill Gates I mean

501.12.2006 12:16

What a joke!! They should seriously kill themselves. The Internet can not, and will not be ever shut down. If they wanna try n solve the problem, go after the source.... anyone with half a brain knows what they are. Get to the big ISPs that reach 90% of the public and have them block access to Limewire, Bittorrent programs.. etc.. or go after those guys directly. Its really quite simple. Its the only they'll ever get rid of piracy to the masses at least. There will always be some. This is just as much of a joke as the internet gambling ban. They cant stop it. They can only change its dynamics. The only to stop it is to go after the ISPs.. and even then you can always get where u want to go w/ a Proxy, but at least you have to be much more of a competant internet user to know that, which most people arent.

511.12.2006 13:20

The reason that I brought up the studio's attitude about they being able to do what they want and one had better do as they say is because their and some other people's logic is similar to banning the sale of automobiles because they have and will be used in the commission of crimes Their logic is along those same lines. Close all streets and highways because these things allow criminals to operate. Things are getting ridicules. Remember, it wasn't too long ago that criminals could sue their victims because they hurt themselves while committing a crime. Make a crime victim pay the crook for the crook's own stupidity. It took our idiot politicians over ten years to stop that folly.... Intellectual property rights is more who you are than than what you have created. The studios are notorious about stealing unknown people's works. This happens all the time in the entertainment industry as well as other industries. The laser that cuts steel and reads/writes your DVD disk was invented in the late 1950s. The government, using their vast intellect and fear that someone would create a doomsday weapon, confiscated private intellectual property and held it from the market for 24 years. The person that invented it never received a penny..............

521.12.2006 13:53

Hey guys, my friends and I are making a new internet. We'll just switch over to that and not let the RIAA on.

531.12.2006 14:00

dufas its not just the media mafia all the larger corperations are becoming goverment like in their quest for power.......

541.12.2006 14:09

The phrase itself ("shut down the internet") sounds ridiculous... but then again, many things depicted in the movie "1984" seemed ridiculous- until now. The RIAA couldn't possibly shut down the internet in a single shot. But the argument could inspire new options for Big Brother to explore new ways to, at the very Least, limit free speech-- especially now that we've come to use the internet as a powerful means of communication to reach masses far away and unite to fight for various causes. In this aspect, Strength In Numbers of a people can pose a threat to the governing forces who'll stop at nothing to keep us Dumbed-down and Under Their Control. There's more to this than just the issue of "Copyright Infringement". This is just the start of more draconistic things to come. ...The future is so bright I need a bomb-shelter to hide from the flash. zozo- Magenar-Z

551.12.2006 14:12

A good way to address this is flood you congressmen or women with your thoughts. Email the s--t out of them and let them know that you vote. By the way my 7.62 39mm sits next to my media collection

561.12.2006 14:30

I agree, Dufas. Remeber the guy who created the X-Men characters (I forgot his name, he was in yesterday's Obituary in my local newspaper)? He passed away this week. He never recieved a dime, NO ROYALTIES, for his work. The same HYPOCRITE industry, who cry foul over "illegal file-sharing on the internet", NEVER COMPENSATED ANY ROYALTIES to the poor guy. His surviving family is taking the matter to court... I hope they win. The same HYPOCRITE industry have, throughout their existence, STOLEN ideas and creations from talented individual ordinary people, and NEVER COMPENSATED for that which they STEAL. And when taken to court, they win, because they have all the right Player$$$ on Their team, to beat the little guy. Now that same HYPOCRITE industry was to $UE the moment Anything even dusts up about "Their Product"... They can't win Their case $oon enough, so now they're gonna try to grab the bank in one hefty $hot; they could win with all the right Player$$$ on Their team. zozo- Magengar-Z

571.12.2006 15:02

Why don't they just build a time machine and send us all back to the cavemen era?

581.12.2006 16:18

Many years ago I told a number of my friends and acquaintances that "digital" delivery of any form of media offers the capability of "controlling" the usage of same. This is true in all cases, music, movies, pictures, books, whatever. And you can be sure that, given the opportunity, the "mass media" companies will take advantage of this. Remember the "large media companies" have already gotten the copyright act extended to ninety-five(!) years, a ridiculous length. And even with ANALOG radio signals - because Newt Gingrich had a compromising cell-phone conversation overheard - it is now illegal to make, import, or buy a radio which can tune the "cellular" frequencies; we now join such other "enlightened" countries as Saudi Arabia and North Korea in restricting radio frequencies to which we can lawfully listen. (You know that our "honest" politicians, regardless of party, always stick together when one is "outed" in any way, similar to doctors and lawyers.) And this is ANALOG radio. Just IMAGINE what they will be able to do with digital/satellite radio! Censorship, here we come!) Do you think the "push" to digital books is any different? That is the final means of "information transmission" that, thus far, has been beyond their control. The previous writer here has stated the goal correctly. The media companies (in collusion with the government) want to CHARGE you each and every time you "access" (listen, watch, or read) one of their "products."

591.12.2006 18:08

The FUNNIEST and I mean FUNNIEST thing of all... about the RIAA and any other Media giant wanting control and arguing and claiming billions in lost revenue... can they actually think about it? Those that download something for free usually weren't going to buy it in the first place, so either way it is MONEY that they never were going to EARN in the first place... If they think stopping say hypothetically ALL Pirated material ont he internet will boost sales, they are kidding them selves. People that do download material like that aren't going to buy it in the first place even if they could so really they'll make NO extra money stopping people.

601.12.2006 19:16

Looks like we'll all be going back to J.A.N.E.T., but perhaps with colourful screens. I just hope that this legal bloke has a bottomless pot of gold, 'cause a heck of a lot of people, telecomms companies etc. are going to try to take him to the cleaners.

612.12.2006 6:32

This is actually comical.... There is absolutly no way in hell the internet would be shut down.... hundreds of thousands of poeple would have no job... there would be no academic research.... some people would have no life? well sadly that is true.... and there IS NO WAY THE INTERNET WILL EVER BE SHUT DOWN. Unless a better structure is invented and programed.

622.12.2006 9:33

HA HA HA! The RIAA can not shut down the internet. That is the most ridiculous claim I have ever heard. What about the rest of the world? The internet is not owned by the United States! What about Freedom of Speech? Not to mention the convenience it provides for people and businesses alike... Shutting down the entire internet is not possible without a global effort and will never happen. LOL.

632.12.2006 11:36

I think they should do it, try to get the internet shutdown that is. As a matter of fact we NEED it to happen. We need a backlash so loud and huge that it makes everyone take a real strong and long look at the RIAA/MPAA practices. A real message has to be sent.

642.12.2006 11:45

Umm rosedog Are you serious? you cant be.... Their practices are pure evil. And just to let you know everyone on AfterDawn hates the RIAA/MPAA sooo.... I mean this website is practaly all about dvd copying audio ripping modding and a little hacking... so basically all against the MPAA/RIAA so you might want a reality check to make sure your on the right site

652.12.2006 11:54

wo0dy stop think and look underneath the underneath they dont want to shut it down but control it or have the leagle right to bullie anyone in the world. as for shuting ti would be amusieng because if they in any large fashion went after the net they would PIKED on the lawns of consumers around the nation/world. the Media mafia needs to understand the people are nto sheeple but the people seem to be happy ba ba baing along and letting the World wide media mafias have their wet way with their rears....

662.12.2006 16:13

riaa must be kidding they dont deserve this world go to mars even the aliens have internet.

672.12.2006 19:58

The Internet will never be shut down,by any Legal means.Too many people in too many countries use it.If they ever decided to and got their act together,they are the ones who could cause great problems with the net.

683.12.2006 4:34

Ok I had to write after reading all the *** about these greedy, filthy, selfish studios. How much is enough for them???? And the artist, how much do they need to go out and buy more drugs, and illegal activites, do they need more?????? Do these Artists need 50 million for a cd, or video? Do the studios need 700 billion to have a decent profit?????? Well I have solved the whole problem, and we don't need to shut down the internet. If they are so afraid of the average people making copies so they can listen to their favorite artists, lets take care of them once and for all. Start taping all music off the free radio. Stop buying any and all cd's and tape recordings sold. Now this should take care of all the greed there is in the industry. I feel after about 6 months, they won't even be able to give the stuff away. Then and only then will you see all this rediculous garbage finally go away.... Sometimes people need to be taught an old fashioned lesson. The same goes for the video industry. I salute anyone who wants to copy any product they paid for in the first place. First thing you know we won't even be able to reuse a paper bag for fear of copywrite infringment. I bought it I will do with it what I want....... Everybody, JUST STOP BUYING THE PRODUCT, easy ain't it, when you really think about it??????

693.12.2006 6:22

Why not just borrow the CD's or DVD's from you friends, the library or rental places. If that doesnt work than buy it, copy it and then return it to the store purchased from and get your money back.

703.12.2006 6:53

codymart much like the game industry/software industry did they could make returning stuff a "myth"....

713.12.2006 13:05

No, No, No, We do not borrow from the Library or whatever, because then they have to buy the product. We just do without for 4 or 6 months. Oh WOW, is that to much to ask. Wow these last couple of generations are such a bunch of woosies and pussys. suck it up for a little while, for a better future.. And for the good of the recording industry....... Then maybe, just maybe they will have a little respect for our us and our dollar....... Yea now I feel much better.

723.12.2006 14:44

Next thing you know, they will want to make the "written word" illegal too. YAY!

733.12.2006 15:15

Well.....I haven't purchased or rented a DVD, VHS, or a music album in the last three years because of the actions of the MPAA and the RIAA. I figure if they are so greedy as to sue 12 year old girls over a jingle, old people that don't even have a computer, and even dead people, they can make their living some other way. The straw that broke the camel's back was when Martin Sheen open his big mouth and then complained when enough people boycotted his show that it was canceled for a month and Sheen started crying fowl about the public reaction. His attitude was that he had the right to say anything he wanted to without repercussions.. His elitist thinking that he could lose his livelihood for pushing his opinion onto everyone else was completely foreign to his way of life. He never seemed to care about the working people's jobs that were lost when he staged his boycotts. It's part of that one way street that I mentioned before.

743.12.2006 21:10

Have any of you actually listened to the source material for this article? The phrase "accepting the RIAA's argument that making files available on the internet is in and of itself a copyright infringement ... would porbably shut down the entire internet," refers to the RIAA trying to rewrite copyright law. I guess I may not have read all your comments closely enough, but it seems like you are all talking about the RIAA trying to physically shut down the internet, which confuses me because they are trying to "shut down" the internet in the sense that they are attempting to control the way the internet is currently run, which would in turn vastly affect our access to information in a more large scale way.

753.12.2006 23:44

the movie ?? (1984) -- try reading the book sometime -- (the BIBLE) . as far as RIAA -- GREEEEEED -- as far as I am concerned and as long as I live in the USA -- if i've purchased a cd or even a dvd -- that it's MINE -- not theirs -- MINE and I'll do Damn well what i want to with it... RIAA needs to get out of this cyclitic redundancy error it's created and seek after an Insurance or Oil franchise -- if all they gaive a crap about is Returns on Investment..

764.12.2006 2:54

Remember we the people and only we have the ability to shut them down. It is your choice to lay down your money for a cd or dvd, or keep your money in your pocket, yes you have the power, not the recording industry. This is what they fail to understand. We the people control whether they prosper or starve. Why is then that we allow them to dictate to us what we can and cannot do with our own property???????

774.12.2006 3:26

I seem one of very few people who didn't interpret the article as the RIAA wanting to shut down the entire internet, they just want to do something so propostrous, it MAY AS WELL be shutting down the internet, i.e. banning any form of file transfer. From a very pedantic standpoint, that IS closing the internet, but if the RIAA ever achieved anything like this, it would be far less severe than what people are imagining due to the non-feasability of implementing such a widespread enforcement. They will continue to shut down illegal sites as they go, but their only way of preventing traffic that IS illegal (downloads of copyrighted material, mp3s and films) would be to somehow check all music and video files being transferred against a copyright list. Of course, what do genuine music and film download sites do then?
With regard to bit torrent, I highly doubt that ISPs will block access to it altogether, due to the number of genuine applications it has, and if your ISP blocks access to it, start your own! I know a couple of people who have.
The only software, games etc. I've really bought in the past few years are games and software by small groups of companies, or individuals that deserve payment for their efforts. When it comes down to video and music on a wide scale, I'd never pay full price or I'd be broke.

Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
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784.12.2006 5:38

Magengar-Z, Your remarks about the HYPOCRITE industry would indicate you have not been on these boards much. Their real business is extortion. We just call them the media maffia. They are ultra greedy but not really evil. They are basicly out there to extract every bit of money from every marktet they can leagly. They do that by changing laws and hiring an army of lawyers to take everyone to court. Again, the only way we can fight them is to write our congressman. However, I do not think we are informed enough to do much damage. What we need is to invite some loby orgs that fight this kind of abuse to join our boards. They might be able to organize us into something that could hurt their efforts. If anyone can think of one of these orgs contact them and invite them to join this forum. Let the force be with you!

794.12.2006 9:30

It seems, as joked about, the written word may very well be copyright soon enough, at this rate.

Why don't they just build a time machine and send us all back to the cavemen era?

They're working on it, but they have to take themselves to court for copyright infringement first.

As for 'when will it be enough?', never. The RIAA is *not* the industry itself. Even if a record label felt they were being misrepresented, they probably couldn't pull out of the RIAA's conglomerate. It's a group of lawyers who were appointed as representatives. They're making a LOT of money, the industry labels have to do nothin at all; it's a free cash cow.

When will it stop? When a label realizes they can make a better deal by getting in-house attorneys, and halting their association with the RIAA. There will be an ugly all-out legal battle, and the RIAA will spend about six months falling apart as label after label after label leave them. Eventually, the only remnants will be small, nearly independent labels who can't afford attorneys, and the lawyers who are there will find more profitable measures. The label-hired attorneys will not be interested in sueing for other companies, or letting them know about their findings; and suits MIGHT go down. Unless, they strike up a deal to share information for prospective suits with other labels, but that gets into a huge legal debacle.

Either way, the only way the RIAA will disband, is if it is replaced by label-direct attorneys, and that may or may not be a step in the right direction for free speech and media.

"Its not stupid, its advanced!" - The Almighty Tallest, Invader Zim

804.12.2006 9:37

I think They (RIAA) are terrorists

814.12.2006 13:03

Talk Talk Talk thats what we all do, including me, BUT what are we doing about it not a lot I think. Attack is the best form of defence, It's time all of us began to think about how we can attack the RIAA and not sit back and take it. What to do is another matter, but whatever we do we must do it together, alone we are staws in the wind but together we might just make the b*******s sit up and take notice......Before it's too late to do anything.

824.12.2006 18:11

How in the world do they think they can shut down the Internet?. Don't forget about the thousands of legal businesses who need and do their business on the Internet. People like Amazon, Ebay, etc. It's what they are...the Internet. What jack asses. I'm sorry, I'm a 41 year old DJ who thinks todays so called pop music (which all sound the same anyway)SUCKS! Who would want to buy it. If you ask me the music industry is a real put-down. The media has taken over the youth and has been been pouring the crap all over them. I feel sorry for what they see in the theaters (mindless stories with no meaning and bad acting) and what they hear on what the consider radio. Don't get me wrong there are some good films every now and then but, do your research before going to see the film. By the way, the Internet is a wonderful thing. RIAA, don't think you going to blame the whole innocent WWW for a fraction of your lo$$e$ SHAME ON YOU!

834.12.2006 18:21

Heres the only way they will destroy the net

Net Neutrality

Being on sailtie net where they watch every bit of bytes don't think they could just as easily ban half the net for questioning the practices of the corporate horde...

Be wary my friends be wary.....

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

Check out my crappy creations

844.12.2006 22:22

I agree with you guys it is all about the money and probably the best course will be to not to buy their content. I myself haven't bought and music or dvd for around five years but the problem comes in when we look at that lot of people buy music and don't stop to think about it. So we come down to the same point that the only way to send a message RIAA is to not to buy their product but not be individuals but mass comunity.

854.12.2006 22:46

My post from another thread

like with link sang the corperations want to impose their regioning will and might where they see fit.

its like doubling the price of a item in the UK from 20 US to 40 EU thats 80 US they want to stop all small time importers so that can make more money off less sales,it boggles the mind on how they think and act,you could be saleing world wide consoles and games via link but no just because they where going to try and sale a few doszen PS3s in the Euro market before you.

Movies and music is the same the price keeps away msot if they sale it abit above cost they would double their rep sell more units and be making alittle less money than they are they are using stale lazy mans logic "OMG if we raise min wage prices will go up and the enconimy will suffer"...ever think at worse if the min wage was doubled prices would go up but since people are making more things would not change much,and if things did not go up people would be buying more....

I so love corporate logic less(sales) = more(money)

Finaly I want to add the main reason that I doubt downloading is such a bad thing people who are willing to spend 100 a month for net and don't buy much wont buy new stuff even they had didn't have the net they would buy used to maximize their money so using corperate logic selling/buying/ trading used things is the most evil thing you can do.
I will repeat that if you did not understand

I so love corporate logic less(sales) = more(money)

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

Check out my crappy creations

864.12.2006 23:59

Now if the internet is like skynet in that there is no off switch on a panel in a particular room, how does one shut it down?

875.12.2006 14:05

Come on Boys and Girls their never going to shut down the web even if we spent all day down-loading copy writed stuff there's far too much money at stake so rest in peace it will not happen, I'm willing to take bets.

886.12.2006 7:01

ZIppyDSM............. "..ever think at worse if the min wage was doubled prices would go up but since people are making more things would not change much,and if things did not go up people would be buying more.... " Excellent logic.....We should raise the minimum wage to at least $35.00 - $40.00 an hour and solve all the problems or base the wages on need instead of skill. Limit top wages at around $50.00 an hourand require everyone to address others as 'comrade'

896.12.2006 8:28

even the jpaanase at one time understood the balance in a corperation and not paid the CEOs more than 10X-30X what the lowest worker got this mindless capitalism we have our selfs into will not stop it will always want more...

So ignoring the school system making more "unskiled workers" meaning we have to import more people with less skill to work more for half the price....WHAT?!?!

its a raging beast and will find anything to feed on endlessly....
regulation is double edged blade as much as capitalism off teh hook is,you cant say the whole improtation of wokers from mexico of other places to help corperations endlesly maximize their profits is a good thing for the country,look at china manufacturers have started to leave it and find cheaper places to setup shop leaving areas and workers devastated ,the new corperation model is a large unwieldy beast that meanders about rarely leaving nothing but sorrow in its wake take me back to the 1900-50s when the corperation needed workers and the industry around plants to survive now they are more mobile and more mean...

The trouble with communism is that freedom is removed so everyone is tooken care of.

Screw censorship and taking care of everyone I just want a balance and in order to balance it you need to regulate it ,we regulate what the populace dose by laws so doing the same to the corperations is a given and because they are with the rich they have less laws to go by,or I should say enforceable....

Look at nascar firestons/goodyear closing of plants to import more and the middle america that loves nascard thats losing their jobs..

Free trade is all well and good if other countries are playing fair most don't and yet we let them export anything they want furthering our own debts and the end the US needs to start taking care of it own and rebalanced itself if not we can only sustain for 50-100 years befor it all falls apart...

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 Dec 2006 @ 8:54

906.12.2006 10:59

My factious comment was to point out that even if the minimum wage was $1,000.00 an hour, those earning that minimum wage would soon still be in poverty because [1] the unions base their wages on the minimum wage.... $1,000.00 hour minimum wage equals $35,000,00 union wages and $500.00 hamburgers. [2] As soon as pay is based on need, you are heading towards communism/socialism which, I agree, doesn't help anybody but those that hold the power. Your point about the 50s is appropriate. people were paid on skill then, not need. A construction worker that only knew how to shovel dirt was paid lower than a service station employee. Now, a ditch digger gets paid around $45.00 an hour. There are automobile assemblers making $100,000.00 a year, some of them are paid this to sit on their ass and do nothing. Toll booth operators on the SF bay bridge make $28.00 an hour. A kid wanted to mow my lawn last week, he wanted $25.00 to cut a 15 by 25 foot area. I asked him how much he would pay someone to mow his lawn,, He replied around $5.00... I then asked why the big difference in pay.. He told me that for one, he would be the one paying for his lawn and that he needed the $25.00 to buy something. A $5.00 job equals $25.00 when converted from skill/worth to need. It also means that the consumer, the purchaser of goods and services will pay more for anything and eventually, that $1,000.00 minimum wage becomes poverty again, soooo, lets raise the minimum wage to $1,500.00 and start all over again.

916.12.2006 12:46

There are sufficient people unhappy with this deal to do something realistic about it. But, how many of you are actually complaining, then going out and buying this mindless tripe that passes as music,or art, or whatever. All you need to do is to keep your money and let these bleeders suck hind tit, which is an american expression

926.12.2006 14:17

But I've heard it, and I'm from the UK. I get what you mean! No matter how much I like them, no games developer who uses starforce gets my money either.

936.12.2006 16:27

dufas darn it I hate it when I get dirt in my eye,I cant see underneath the underneath well 0_x the greed of capitalism has off balanced/centered so many things going back to balance or something like it is near imposable without destroying what we got and to destroy the current empire is as near imposable. sammorris I have given up and buy 98% used.

946.12.2006 23:22

Why don't they just build a time machine and send us all back to the cavemen era?

They're working on it, but they have to take themselves to court for copyright infringement first.
They are working on it? Well, that's just great...One more thing to worry about because if they take themselves to court, they are sure going to win either way.

It's better to die than to live without hope...

Life is about making mistakes and paying for them...

957.12.2006 12:16

Hi. Well, there's plenty of energy to talk about the big biz that cares about bizness. Let's keep solid in appreciating the life we all share in common, and put the best vibes out as we do the net, so our energy can contribute to a world, a net-world we all co-make by the minute, let's keep it good vibes, and those RIAA slobs will rot in the sweet love of doing right file sharers, that is, doing right cuz it feels right to us. cheerio.

9616.12.2006 14:21

I still am amazed at the people who think that when they purchase a CD or DVD, that THEY OWN THE CONTENT ON IT! While I despise the RIAA and other media conglomerations that pull this type of crap as much as the rest of you, I also realize that I do not "OWN" the content of the last music CD I purchased, so I "Legally" cannot do "whatever I damn well please to do" with it. I still am amazed at the number of people who make that claim, that they bought the disc, so they now "own" whatever is on it as well...DUHHHH... You CAN'T own the content of the disc, what you have purchased is a "License" to use the contents of the disc for your personal enjoyment, you do not own the content in and of itself. If you did "Own" the content as you like to say, then YOU would recieve the royalty checks for any use of those songs/videos (whatever it is) and not the artisits/composers. PLEASE....understand what it is you're talking about before you spout nonsense about these things and make claims that are completely idiotic. About the facts of this particular case and it's supposed impact upon our beloved "FREE" net, it would be impossible to enforce if this case were to go in favor of the RIAA's pleas. They would only be able to still go after those who share their (the RIAA'S) media and not other types of files d'loaded from the net. While it sounds like it would negatively impact ALL files traded or d'loaded from sites, it would not really have that far reaching an impact....but I still would be horrifically surprised if any judge in his right mind were to judge in favor of the RIAA's case in it's current state. Like I say, I'm not bashing file sharing here...I do it myself, but it's the folks that say "I bought the CD...I own what's on it.." that drive me nuts because they simply do not understand what "Intellectual Property Copyright" means. I own 3 copyrights myself so I completely understand the need for it and the need to protect your intellectual property from theft or misuse. I also understand the greed and complete lack of morals that pervades the music and movie industries today, and I feel no real remorse when I d'load a torrent and seed it for a day or two. They still get filthy rich off of it so my few measly $$.$$ isn't being missed too badly it.

9716.12.2006 14:27

ChappyTTV you own the content but not for redistribution IE selling,if you did not own the content you could not resale it as a used item. theres more than enough gray area to say that personal backup/archive is "ok" but to convert it to a different format with your own tools should be legit re saling it is never a good thing,the devil is in the details.

9817.12.2006 11:56

Is somebody hacking the Afterdawn site or is this a new Afterdawn policy to automatically cut off notification. I never reset anything or changed my preferences......


You have now been removed from reminder list. You wont receive any further
notification emails from this thread:

Best regards,

9917.12.2006 12:27

Just a thought...If one follows the studio's logic, when a used CD/DVD, video tape, etc, etc is sold, they, the studios, deserve a royalty payment on that sale...In other words, all transactions of their property should include payment to the studios.

If you loan or share viewing/listening of their intellectual property with a friend or next door neighbor, then you are guilty of illegal sharing. This sounds ridicules but it was not to long ago that artists that made sculptures and paintings tried through the legal system to effect such a system where they got a percentage of all subsequent sales...

10017.12.2006 12:31

Did you click on the wrong link in the email? The one underneath the "view the thread" link is to "unsubscribe from notifications" - I've done that a couple of times by accident.

Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
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10117.12.2006 16:04

I don't think so, every time I get notified, I am taken to the thread. If one clicks on the remove from notification link, does it still take one to the forum or just send a removal notice to Afterdawn ????

10217.12.2006 17:40

.....back to our scheduled programming.... This case is quite obviously part of the US Goverment and RIAA's push toward Internet 2 - the commerce internet. AKA Lockdown City : a place where all rights, privileges and freedoms are owned by corporations. People should be boycotting Internet 2.

10317.12.2006 18:37

so ither there is fair use or there is non.

if there is non the goverment would have to create a tax in order to gather money on industry's behalf over all used sales.

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

Check out my crappy creations

10420.1.2007 9:06

from what i hesr and read of america the news media controls your thinking u get one side of the news and more people vote in reality shows than vote in ellections watching some of the crime shows on cable the number of innocent people in jails scares the crap out of me.thrown in jail for downloading a few movies or music even for being caught with a joint in your pocket,no mate makes me glad im living in australia

10520.1.2007 9:10

dr.benway and in the EU they want to ban media for questioning how things work and such,so meh perfection in any goverment is a failicy some work better than others,sadly the US is sliding into "run by commeite thus nothign gets done" mentality... of coarse thats the brunt of how socialism works most of the time.

10620.1.2007 9:41

dr.benway..... The reason that more people vote in reality shows is that unlike the TV shows, the politicians do not listen to the people. The politicians are there for their own needs, not the people's. Most of the people in the USA do not realize that they are slowly slipping into a socialist quagmire. These people that think that the government should take care of every need and that freedom is "freedom from ......" are going to wake up some day and find that the government has protected them from so many things that no one can do or say anything any more without running afoul of some law. I can visualize the day when they change USA to USSA.... United Socialist States of America

10720.1.2007 9:57

dufas nicely said,how you been man? Its a shame thats where the US is headed to bad it cant be like the 20-30s be enthruepernistic and reinvent itself to the needs of the people and government,where its headed now is to brainwash the people in order for them to serve the governments needs as best/poorly as they can.

10820.1.2007 12:11

i think youve got your politics wrorg your country[and mine] are being run by corporations and the military industrial complex thats got nothing to do with socialism weve been listening to this red scare so long its clouding some peoples perspective.

10920.1.2007 13:33

USSA...sounds eerily similar to that USSR...

11020.1.2007 13:43

dr.benway the elites are overlords to the darkness that are corporations and the elites are trying to brainwash the public so that the corporations have compete rule.

11120.1.2007 14:50

we were reading over here about some sheriff in a place called maricopa who set up a camp in the desert with tents ,barb wire and all sorts of harsh conditions they even had too wear pink shorts sounds like a joke i suppose its got gas chambers and ovens too.its not real is it? or all the jails overflowing with evil music and movie pirates and pot heads.

11220.1.2007 15:24

perhaps a little humiliation and discomfort will keep these guys out of jail... I mean they dont need TV/radio and nothing like rock brakeing or hole diging for good exersize!

Most of these would be for drug offenders or violent crime.

Perhaps we should even kill murders before they can kill again that would help....or maybe treat criminals like I dunno...crimails....

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 20 Jan 2007 @ 15:31

11321.1.2007 6:58

dr.benway "i think youve got your politics wrorg your country[and mine] are being run by corporations and the military industrial complex thats got nothing to do with socialism weve been listening to this red scare so long its clouding some peoples perspective." The "red scare' was communism. Even though "socialist" was part of the name of most of the eastern block country's names, they were communists, not socialists. Socialist countries have quasi freedoms which in reality are more like privileges that can be controlled, moderated, modified, and in many cases, taken away all together. Actually, I think we are both right. If you examine socialism, you will find that the government owns or controls the production capabilities of a country. If the corporations are pulling the strings and either controlling or working in concert with government, it works out to be the same, control production, control the government, control the people, control the money. The military industrial complex is right in the middle of this situation doing the same thing. Add to this mix political correctness [control of speech], dumbing down of the schools [indoctrination], rewriting of history [ever hear of the Dixiecrats ??? [look them up]].... In the name of safety, health, or environmentalism, just about any law, rule or regulation to control the masses can be put into place. The main 'selling' point that pulls in the majority of the people is the "freedom from....." hook. Freedom from some problem in life... "I know, let's have the government take care of this problem..... there, it's all fixed, doesn't that feel better...??" The main problem with 'freedom from' is that many times, in order it to work, it takes 'freedom to....' away from someone else. But this is alright as long as it is someone else that is losing their freedoms.

11421.1.2007 7:04

dufas I love government protecting you from yourself(IE thinking)and protecting big business from small business (OOT regulation that enforces a non level playing field between the 2) oy vay.

11521.1.2007 10:04

hmmmmmm.....lmfao...i dont think is this world comming to!

11621.1.2007 10:33

OK, let's close down 'big business' and only have mom and pop stores and manufacturing. Let's operate like some communities and regulate the color you paint your car. Let's do as a couple of Florida towns have done and make it against the law to park a pickup truck in front of your house. Let's go ahead as the US Senate is proposing and make all internet sites, blogs, and forums that contain any political rhetoric register with the government and pay a license fee in order to express a political opinion. Let's make it so no one is responsible for their own actions like the guy that sticks his naked ass out of third story window to moon the people below, slips and falls out onto the ground, then sues the building owner stating the owner's responsibility. Let's have the government control what you eat, get rid of all fast food outlets, control the foods that sit-down restaurants can serve. Let's do as a group of politicians are trying to do and ban most computer games. There is a group that is trying to ban all soft drinks using every excuse from health concerns to global warming [CO2 makes the bubbles] as a reason for the ban. Using the government for total control of media as the MPAA and the RIAA is attempting to do should be accepted whole heartedly by the "government should save one from themselves" people....unless it is "I can crap in your yard but don't you dare crap in mine".. Politics, at least in the USSA has become 'in the name of freedom, one group is going to tell others how to live....' This seems to work OK until your life is the one being manipulated.

11721.1.2007 10:54

thats not what I meant,look at the monopolies on phone and cable,because they have near complete control over it they can stagnate the expansion of technologies IE board band and thus we are sitting with slow over priced boardband compared to most of Asia that managed to nudge corporations into sliming down some and then gaining profit for begin able to sale to the populace nation wide not just by tiny region..

Japan being the best example of this we started out better than them and in a 3-4 year span they have whipped their board band into shape, I am not calling for oxymoronic regulation however once a corporation has made a profit off some things the government should step in and let any able corporation fight it out to bring the best price and feature to the populace its been done to phone companies to various degrees of successes its time cable and others are forced to play fair and fight for the right to sale to the populace.

Its also time we should be able to return bad DVDs and games because they suck,but nnoooo publishers and retailers cry foul every chance they get....

Monopolies and Conglomerates of power damages us far more than basic government regulation.

A government has a right to control things within its board uncontrolled capitalism is destroying us mainly because big business gets to control everything unquestioned and thos running the government can sale off govermental assets because it "saves" money look at the dubi ports mess that still has yet to come to fruition ,no one whats to do what it right no one wants to bring a balance of things into being because its unpopular because big business gets no profit from it.

Examples of oxymoronic governmental regulation,to ban forms of "normal" media because it "upsets" small groups of people,to force small companies who customize vehicles to crash test them the same as Large corporations when a leisure tax and proof of insurance on these costly customized vehicle's would be more than enough prove street worthiness.

I could go on but you get the point,Regulation has its place but is usely mishandled but to not have any is just as assinie.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 21 Jan 2007 @ 11:08

11821.1.2007 11:35

Have to careful here. The Italian company Fiat was at one time the largest auto manufacturing company in the world, bigger than General Motors at the time. They not only made dozens of Fiat models, they did work for Ferrari, Masserati, Renault, Ford, General Motors, auto accessory companies, and a few English motor companies. They either made engines, body parts, or wheels for these other companies.The Italian government nationalized the company, partly because of the political clout that the company wielded and the perceived monies that would flow into the governments coffers. What politicians and most people don't realize is that most of the huge profits a company makes is plowed back into new products, designs, and research and development. The government began skimming the profits for it's own use and Fiat quickly shrank to a minor automobile manufacturer and thousands of people were put out of work. Hundreds of small, independant supporting companies were closed down putting thousands more out of work. Unions are a monopoly of sorts. I find it ironic that many union members will get upset about some company making a lot of money, saying that the company doesn't deserve to make such a profit but a union member that only bolts on a couple of wheels can earn $100,000 a years and still deseves more. I worked at a small manufacturing plant for a while where the owner actually took home less money than many of the union workers that worked for him. he finally closed the doors and the union went on strike against a closed company demanding job security and a raise in pay and medical benefits. Come to think of it, the unions did the same thing against Catapiller Tracter company.. Most people want everything for themselves, if someone else has anything, they want to take it away.. I agree that some companies go way overboard but, many individuals do also...............

11921.1.2007 11:47

dufas Unions and corporations are mobs of people trying to make as much money as they can despite what it dose to the people or things around them thus why they need to be regulated,Unions even more so because what have they done in the past 20ish years stagnate workers rights is what they have done for the most part because of all the back sliding and giving in just to keep the union going. BTW Unions are not indavendauls,and indavenaudls tend to heard to easy thus we get a screwed up nanny government because sheeple think they will be "protected",if I want to be protected from free thought I would go of to the middle east and join a cult. trust me brother I understand it and it blows whats left of my mind into tiny pieces.

12021.1.2007 14:02

My God....we agree..........

12121.1.2007 14:17

Adendummmmmmmm............. Question...If you hire someone to redo the interior walls and paint your house and they are doing a crappy job no matter how hard you try to straighten the person out. Do you have the right to fire that person and hire another one. What is that employee's rights ?? Does he have the right to make you keep paying him even though he doesn't do the work. Does he have the right to do things as he sees fit and not follow your instructions. Does he have the right to tear your house up then stop working until you pay him more money?? Does he have the right to demand that you pay all of his medical bills ??? Does he have the right to limit how much money you can earn ?? What is workers rights exactly ???

12221.1.2007 14:43


Fair pay for fair work,meaning what the market says X job is worth,it also means that children can not be used for menial labor and such, bascily in the example you have provided its what the contract between you and the sub contractor.

its a bit different than normal employee/employer relationship,employee is given tasks to do if they fail the tasks they lsoe job,if the employer fails to provide "safe" and "quite" work environment they can be sued.

Safe meaning following X guidelines to keep employee's safe from ascendants and such quite meaning no harassment and adults acting like 5 year olds.

Health care and such fall into extras not all jobs have extras,frankly it would be best for all if the health care and insurance industries where trimmed down some and a better system in palace too have all employers bearing the load,keeping the nation in some form of good health is a benefit to all,however making it happen where its not a oxymoronic regulation is anyone guess.

From where I sit the government is burning money and so are the corerations it seems no one wants to do things to help everyone they are to busy looking out for number one.

BTW lets bring back personal contracts for small business's and private indavendauls if tis good enough for big business's to screw each other over it its good enough for the common man to use.

you don't need to regulate everything signal god darned thing if a contract is messed with from either side theres the court system to fix small claims and such.

the day is ending and my brain is dead.
I will edit it tommrorow.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 21 Jan 2007 @ 15:06

12322.1.2007 2:28

Unions like guns and fire are not really good or evil but can do both. I am sure the autoworkers needed some kind of protection from the Cos. I see the auto Cos as being both fantastically stupid and fantastically ballsie. They were the biggest advacary against gasohol and have specialized in making gas guzzelers. You would think they would want to stay in business as long as possible. There can't be one working brain cell in all the Co executives combined! The problem is when the Co has such agressive morons running the show the union has to respond in kind. It is kind of like the Matrix where Mr. Smith automatically gets more powerful as Neo gains power. With such greedy morons on both sides of the table it is a wonder how they are still in business. Too bad they are still in business; they are probably the biggest contributer to global warming that could have been easily reduced. They will take the world out with their stupidity.

12422.1.2007 2:30

(no I am not awakened enough to fix the post yet *yawns*) Mez nods nods

12522.1.2007 7:10

ZIppyDSM You are correct. That was a poor example. The point that i was trying to make is that everyone goes overboard. It doesn't matter to those involved who they screw until they, themselves are paying the bills. Actually, it doesn't really matter what I think or even know. If one agrees with me, I'll just be counted as a fellow traveler and that person will move on..If one disagrees with me, I'll be discounted as some sort of nut and the person will move on. Most people think like politicians, there is only one way to do things and that is their way or else........

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