AfterDawn: Tech news

Analysts say Vista signed DRM suicide note

Written by Dave Horvath @ 27 Dec 2006 5:58 User comments (91)

Analysts say Vista signed DRM suicide note In all its efforts to corner the market in next generation digital distribution, Redmond's own Microsoft seems to have possibly choked its new flagship Windows Vista too much with copyright protection. In a recent article submitted by Peter Gutmann, a medical imaging specialist, the author argues that Microsoft has made its newest OS far too cumbersome for the mass market and will eventually lead to the demise of its own DRM practices. Mr. Gutmann states that the way in which Microsoft has locked down Vista in hopes to keep copyright infringement of the latest HD-DVD and Blu-Ray technologies to a minimum will only succeed in forcing users to buy faster hardware to cope with the degraded performance of Vista.
Vista has proven to be a fast OS, when its spec'd with the latest and greatest hardware, but to the average consumer, it proves to be far too bulky of an interface to run even as efficient as the version its replacing (Windows XP). Gutmann states that the Vista Content Protection specs could "very well constitute the longest suicide note in history". He further goes on to say that the efforts to force users into faster hardware to cope with the security of Vista will have a detrimental effect on the PC market as a whole; both hardware and software.

Gutmann sites an example in his paper which can be found here that, "Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in order to provide content protection for so-called "premium content", typically HD data from Blu-Ray and HD-DVD sources. Providing this protection incurs considerable costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical support overhead, and hardware and software cost. These issues affect not only users of Vista but the entire PC industry, since the effects of the protection measures extend to cover all hardware and software that will ever come into contact with Vista, even if it's not used directly with Vista (for example hardware in a Macintosh computer or on a Linux server)".

Gutmann's final argument states that crafty hackers will find ways around Microsoft's security efforts just as easy as any other OS they've released and will ultimately end in doomed efforts, annoyed customers and more expensive, less functional operating systems.

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91 user comments

127.12.2006 6:25
gpb42
Inactive

Of all the articles I've read concerning Vista I havene't heard one positive. I've seen some videos online which show the microsoft bigwigs showing off Vista as they always do, but the biggest thing they were touting was the fact that you could see through the various windows you have open...oooooooooooo, great. So I guess my comment/question is, what's the advantage of Vista? anybody?

227.12.2006 6:25
tabletpc
Inactive

this is not true windows vista runs on any computer 800mhz or faster without issues im beta testing it right now and so far i have not run into any issues with blu ray and HD-DVD this report is garbage and no one should take this guy seriously and if you dont have a faster computer of 800mhz standards or faster you need help most computer users that have gone to windows xp have a faster machine already and you do not need the latest hardware this is a bunch of garbage again im running windows xp home edition and the windows vista rc2 beta on my compaq computer with no issues what so ever no lag no problems and my computer isn't running the most expensive equitment like this reports say my computer is just a standard compaq found at any fred meyer or wal mart so do not listen to this

327.12.2006 7:31

As often is the case: credible sounding report followed by credible sounding rebuttal...Conclusion: I still don't know...

427.12.2006 7:37

So what you are saying is that your beta version has the same amount of proccess's running as your old xp? or maybe less? Is that a new tiny version from Experience, you are using, didnt know there was a tiny version out yet!!! And yes I also tested vista and of course ripped it out 2 days later. Specs- Epox 8KRA1 (via KT600 ) amd athlon 2400xp Kingston hyperX 2@512 megs DDR400 Asus N6200 ( AGP ) Vista was not good for me

527.12.2006 7:58

screw vista...get a stable linux distro equiped with xgl/beryl or glass window and you can do anything and more than the vista could dream of doing

627.12.2006 8:29

trying to stop piracy is like trying to stop a tital wave. where there is a will there is a way. and in the case of people not wanting to pay rediculous prices to a media cartel, the demand is HUGE! i wont update to vista till i read its better than xp for EVERYTHING, ESPECIALY RIPPING HD DVDS AND ALL THAT GOOD STUFF. and as for the dude who said this article is crap, lets see some credentials. the dude who said vista sucks is a medical imaging specialist. who the hell are you? iv been reading afterdawn news for years and i dont think they have misreported EVER that i can remeber.

727.12.2006 8:36

I don't know where tablepc is coming from but Vista is a resource hog, I'm too testing it and possibly unlike tablepc I have a Microsoft rep to deal with as well. It is my conclusion after playing with Vista and talking to the MS rep that Microsoft is going to cut their nose off despite their face. Vista is pretty but that's all that is good about it. You will have very little control of your system and when you have a problem you will not have permissions to correct that problem. But don't worry, says the rep, Vista will fix itself when there is a problem. I don't know what MS is smoking but it must be good, I think they are getting delusional in their lack of wisdom. Businesses will hopefully see through this pile of garbage they are spewing and NOT purchase Vista until MS changes their ways.

827.12.2006 9:23

Why bother with Vista? Keep XP for as long as it's still useable which should be for several more years. Just because something is "new" doesn't mean you have to rush out and buy it ya know.

927.12.2006 9:42

TPC, you in the PNW? That's the only place I know where Fred Meyer is located. I'll be holding off on Vista for a long while. No need in causing headaches for myself in the short term. It won't be too long until we start seeing the dumb news reports of people waiting in line for Vista and then the follow up segment where people have problem with the install. Of course M$ will have no offical comment...

1027.12.2006 9:58

The only reason I will be waiting in line to buy Vista in February is -=+>DirectX 10<+=- Yes you guessed it, I am gamer and I have a 8800GTX and want it to fly with DX10. It is people like me that make the computer world go around (All bow before me LOL) If M$ would release DX10 for XP then I would not buy Vista. I am an upgrade hostage! Someone Help Me! What ever shall us gamer lemmings do??? Follow the M$ bread crumbs off the cliff! DAMN IT! BF2142 Rules! Spy ware and all! Nuf said!

1127.12.2006 10:24
gogochar
Inactive

Just go with Linux.

1227.12.2006 10:26

I read this article and most of it went over my head. I feel that if they are going to overload it with protection people are going to wait for it too be cracked.

Quote:
Gutmann's final argument states that crafty hackers will find ways around Microsoft's security efforts just as easy as any other OS they've released and will ultimately end in doomed efforts, annoyed customers and more expensive, less functional operating systems.
They paid this guy to state this in the report. Anyone here would have told him this for free. :)

1327.12.2006 10:43

You cannot play BF2142 or Halo 2 on Linux and that is all that matters LOL! SUSE Rules! Nuf said!

1427.12.2006 12:09

DJGEOJOE save your self the trouble get a Xbox,halo 2 and a max shooter smooth keyboard and mouse gaming on the Xbox you'll never used a pad again :P tabletpc are you ruing the new windose GUI or the the old style? the new 3d GUI takes a bit more power but otherwise vista runs well enough it just has different holes than XP I wonder how long it will take the "fix it" community to remove or patch the protection drivers/streaming/system.

1527.12.2006 13:41

Giving cash to people that work against their own consumers is just ridiculous. I hear people moan and groan all the time about Microsoft's practices, yet they continue to 'feed the beast'.

1627.12.2006 13:44

KingNot thats how the world works look at the music,movie or game industries people hate them yet sheeple cant get enough and people wonder why music movies and games are going to hell because the corperations see blood in the water IE sheeple will buy anything.

1727.12.2006 15:00

I am glad I am taking a class at the University in the Spring and will be taught how to use Linux there. I hope to go all Linux for my personal computing. XP is still fine for all I do. I am one customer lost.

1827.12.2006 18:12
vegeta66
Inactive

i second the "just go with linux".

1927.12.2006 21:07
xhardc0re
Inactive

I logged in simply to say.... DOWN with M$oft. DOWN with teh 666 of OS'. May Steve Job$$$ feed on the rotting flesh of an OS that is Windoze Visters, and seize another 2% of market share. May Open Source, Linux, and the non-DRM OS' of the world pummel Windoze Visters into oblivion!! ~that~ is all :)

2027.12.2006 22:23
ZippyG
Inactive

Here is the thing with Windows Vista...MS is a business, they're ultimately there to make money. In order for them to allow HD-DVD and BluRay to play back, they have to have something there to appease content owners and licensees. I do not think the guy who wrote this article knows much about the inner workings of Vista, nor can we really take his commentary too seriously about DRM being buried deep in the kernel of the OS. Vista is inherently more secure, but to say it's inefficient is somewhat misleading. Keep in mind that PCs that ran Windows98SE nice and fast were slowed in their tracks after loading up XP, which uses more resources. You can build a Vista capable-PC using 2nd and even 3rd gen parts, such as Athlon64 or Pentium4 based-systems. Using a dual-core based system is obviously better, and can also be done so for not much more money Saying that Vista is "bad" because it reveals your PC's inherent obsolescence is ridiculous. Should we halt innovation just because some people want to run Vista on their 1998 eMachine, stepping up from Windows 95? Vista in itself is an upgrade, and is a great reason to get the hardware required to support it. Vista has to support DRM in order to enable HD content playback. Imagine if the OS didn't allow for HD-DVD or BluRay playback - I think there'd be a lot more whining.

2127.12.2006 23:05

microsoft is also going to support windows xp till 2009.

2228.12.2006 0:31

I see you guys defeat M$. Well bad for you. I have a 2 years old computer with quite a good nforce2 chip inside and nvidia has already dumped its support for vista for nforce2 chip sets. Hence I cannot use hardware acceleration, vista crashes immediately with its own drivers. most of my music production software are slowed down to hell since vista is using 400 mb of my RAM for its own pretty silly interface. If I buy a new machine I will surely look for an alternative or really stick with XP

2328.12.2006 4:08

Dont get me wrong vista is a monster but nurtured right it can becoem a valued monster but for the most part its like XP, XP was crap the first 2 years.

2428.12.2006 7:48

rihgt682- “microsoft is also going to support windows xp till 2009.” That’s great for XP to be updating drivers for new hardware but they will not include Direct X 10. Vista will be able to take advantage of the new interfaces and technology where XP will just function at a disadvantage. That’s like buying a Lamborghini and putting a 3 cylinder Geo Metro engine in it to run on, what’s the point, that it still can drive? I don’t get it?!?!

2528.12.2006 7:57

DJGEOJOE It gives a longer time to switch over because it will take at least to o9 for vista is become less buggy,plus by then we will know if the "community" cant get DX10 running on XP that would be interesting...yyeesssss XP is a monster I know how to handle so I will stick with it.

2628.12.2006 8:27

If direct X 10 ran on XP, in my opinion you would not need Vista, unless you like eye candy. I have seen Vista and I was not too impressed, the clock looks and acts like a real analog clock but the rest is smoke and mirrors to me. I want to see benchmarks for games running a DX10 video card and compare it to XP running on DX9 with the same card. Perhaps there is not all that much to be excited about, but from what I have read its going to blow away DX9 systems when it comes to games that look like the movie Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within. I will still have an XP system to do my day-to-day stuff and a SUSE system to toy and learn with but the Vista system is GAMES ONLY! WOOT! ZIppyDSM- “save your self the trouble get a Xbox” I have an XBOX and a HDTV but even the XBOX360 looks laggy in frame rates to me. With a PC I can play at 1200X1600 with a ton more effects, faster frame rate, higher refresh and I have control on how those effects and the video card work. With a console system you are locked in to their rules their way but with a PC you have the freedom to poke and prod the system and software if needs be. The console systems are great for when I have friends over and we all want to play together but when it’s just me and BF2142, there is no competition in graphics sound or control over the PC, Nuf said!

2728.12.2006 9:12

People are always resistant to upgrade systems. I remember Windows 95 was awesome. I had been raised on an Apple IIe. Then I got Windows 98. I stuck with Windows 98 until I upgraded to a Windows XP. Each time I had to get used to the new system. But once I got used to it, I found it better. I look back now and know my Apple IIe sucked; so did Windows 95 and 98. It will only be time before I upgrade to a new system. I like XP but Vista might be better or it might not. There is always room for a new operating system to enter the market.

2828.12.2006 9:17

DJGEOJOE
^^
ya the Xbox suxs badly not quite the power whore they said it was and its nice they are not lieing about how halo 3 looks *rolls eyes* I wonder if Halo 2 PC looks as good as the halo 2 demo vids :P

All in all vister is a monster be ready to deal with it in full force.
and tools and patches and "fixs" will only really start coming out till 09 or 010.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 28 Dec 2006 @ 9:53

2928.12.2006 11:02

arnt vistas minimum requirements a 2ghz processor and 1 gb of ram alone for the os? gaming is going to blow unless you sink 2 grand into a pc. you know people will because "omg halo 2 pwnzorz soxorz nubz omg omg ms RuLeZZ!!1!"

3028.12.2006 11:43

anubis66 more like 800Mhz and 512MB that gets it off the ground but if you are going to be doing any gaming 2Ghz and 1GB would be the start of it,XP maxs out around 2GB at least for ramm it can make use of I think vister will eat all of 4GB without even thinking 0_o

3128.12.2006 12:03

getting it off the ground issnt the same as running any application. thats just to get it to boot.

3228.12.2006 12:13

anubis66 well basic vister 32 or 64bit mode without the new gui well run more or less like XP,once you tact on the new gui and basic gaming you will need 2X the power of minimum I think putting more into XP and giving it another 5 years and keep tweaking vista would have been best for everyone altho hollywood and MS would disagree *L* in the end its the more things change th more they stay the same....

3329.12.2006 10:41

Well with what gallagher said, I'm pretty sure those were noticeable upgrades, and have seeing many of those you mentioned I can say that there was some differences, but many of the problems before that were resolved with XP; like Internet connection problems, issues with hanging and FSOD (somewhat), and a few other things.

What does Vista actually upgrade other than it's own security, look and the ability for 64-bit applications? Well, I guess THAT would be the upgrade to it, but at the loss of individual tweaking and optimization. If you don't mind never being able to fully optimize your computer to how you want; but then again, that could just be speculation.

Either way, I might upgrade, but it won't be for Vista, but just to upgrade. I really don't like playing newer games, and mainly just play Halo CE online, or older MMORPGs, which obviously don't really need the newest stuff or DX10, so XP should work out just fine for me still.


If Im online, Im usually on Steam:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Rikorage

3429.12.2006 12:58
advent
Inactive

For those who think vista is ok i suggest they read the following article- http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt I for one will carry on with xp pro.

3529.12.2006 16:19

let them have their stale uncooked cake....I prefer to let mine cook...with better ingredients

3630.12.2006 6:32

If Mr. Gutmann is a medical imaging specialist I would hope he'd be more concerned about the improved security in Vista than hardware cost and DRM hacking since his job requires patient information protection under HIPAA.

3730.12.2006 10:03
morguex
Inactive

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt I just finished reading this article. Since when did microsoft become the lapdog to the RIAA,MPAA and so on. The manufactures of video cards, motherboards, soundcards and other components that will be affected by this should tell Microsoft that they want microsoft to pay for there incurred costs or go pound themselves. Microsoft you are not the police, just stick to making operating systems and nothing more.

3830.12.2006 20:16

I'm glad to hear Windows XP will be supported until 2009. That gives me plenty of time to learn my way around Linux. I'm not a Windows basher, but for my purposes, Linux is a better system. However, it has a steep learning curve.

3930.12.2006 20:30

Who needs Vista? Unless you answer yourselves one of these Q: 1. Do I want 3D windows? Easier to read tilting text? 2. Do I want to pay for Live OneCare? If vista is so broken? Can I buy OneCare for windows XP? 3. How Limited User Accts make me more secure? Which combination of warnings to accept/ignore to get "security"? 4. Is imitating Apple UI an OS improvement? Isn't there a reason most people don't use Macs? 5. Why would I need to buy or upgrade for a "Vista PC" for anything other than playing games? Did MS find a way to make Office 2007 drag on my OLD 3GHz Pentium? 6. Why is Vista Start menu harder to navigate and more confusing than the old windows? Did they really need four years just to make Windows harder to use? Humbly, I admit I don't need Vista (until SP3...)!

4031.12.2006 1:55
chargerV8
Inactive

If there was ever a time for Apple to get their act together and sell more Macs...then this is it. I use both...Windows XP and an Apple Mac. Mac OSX is more stable than anything Microsoft have ever come up with, but it is also more awkward to use and limited in that hardly anybody knows anything about them. Microsoft must be laughing all the way to the bank that Apple try so hard to 'not sell' computers. I for one will be sticking with XP mainly because I'm used to it. I have never used Linux so I can't comment...is Vista any good? Well lets wait and see...but I'll let others go through the pain of finding out...personally I don't care about keeping up with the Jones's. XP is fairly stable but new systems are not always better...98 was stable and then came ME to replace it and that was terrible!

4131.12.2006 10:48

Quote: 6. Why is Vista Start menu harder to navigate and more confusing than the old windows? Did they really need four years just to make Windows harder to use? Screw that...I use the classic Start Menu and I use Windows XP Home LOL! Keep it simple!

4231.12.2006 11:59

M$ should worry about the PC industry. Not the music and movie industry. Let the MPAA and RIAA worry about how to protect their precious movies and music. I have XP Home. Will not get anything else M$. Next pc is either Linux or I'm going to save the cash for a Mac. I want to do what I want the way I want to with my media.

4331.12.2006 17:22
Plasmon
Inactive

I just want to post what I have experienced with vista. I 'ordered' vista beta (RC-1) and installed it on a machine (3G processor, 2G memory, 500G HD space, 800M motherboard). Now, the first thing I found out was that ALL of my 'third party' security programs NO LONGER WORKED (message: incompatiable with vista 32bit (or 64 bit) version). I noticed that everything slowed down to a crawl like I had before(an earlier machine that was a 300M processor, 512M memory, 80G EIDIE HD). I also noted that Vista kept telling me that Media Player 11 could not run because "your computer is low on memory and cannot continue". Now what the Hell?. I installed fresh HD's and re- installed Vista in the "new" mode. SAME thing happened. I also did some deep checking and found an error that stated "unable to open direct-memory access". SO for all those considering upgrading to Vista, I just have to say NOT!!!!!. Don't waste your time or "money upgrading to a 'unknown cost' for new parts/systems. Thanks, but NO thanks to Vista.

4431.12.2006 20:06

Plasmon I have tested vista beta on a 3700+ 939 2.2Mhz and a intel P4 clearon 3.0mhz both 512 MB ramm I notice more lag with the clearon but then its the lesser CPU everything else ran more or less like XP dose everythign but virus,firewal and such since they kinda need to be updated for the new OS this is not a ISSUE gaming is iffy didn't get to bench mark it but meh I like XP more,go with the evil you know as they say.

451.1.2007 9:42

Maybe if enough bed bugs bite Gates & Co. some place tender, he/they will get the message!

461.1.2007 9:54

craftyzan Gates and co is happily protected from reality because sheeple will always buy their crap and eat it greedily...

471.1.2007 15:25

I like it better when a new os supports past software and hardware. That makes me feel like they want my business and they are aware there are things from the past I don't want to give up... like the os is there to serve my needs. I should not have to do expensive upgrades to my home built system just to run an os. Oh, I can run it but I can't take advantage of some of it's most appealing features without a new video card; probably sound card; whatever. I like trying out new os's and have quite a collection of MS os's. I am afraid that I don't want Microsoft to tell me what I can't do with my own computer. I just want them to support me with what I want to do with my computer... unless it comes out really cheap (as a dual boot) because of kickbacks from the motion picture industy and music industry... Do you see that happening? I think...NOT. So far the trial version of Vista has quite a few annoyances for my tastes... Do I really need to answer the question... If you started this action and want to continue... 50 times a day? The windows defender seems pretty good but not so good to buy on that... I am afraid I agree with a lot of Gutmann's views... I can see it annoying customers, being more expensive due to upgrades and less functional... I just don't understand why hackers would want to get around the cumbersome security features when they can do what they want to now... oh, just because they can? I had a huge vhs collection that I have finally turned to all dvd. I can justify that expense because tapes don't last forever. I don't think I am going to invest in the same movies again so they can be Blu-ray. I have way too much invested in the changes I have made so far. Maybe I will feel the same about Vista. For now I will try it out because it's free and I'm curious...

481.1.2007 15:33

moviegram the trouble is they dislike that,useing all your older stuff means they cant sell you newer stuff,corperations hate consumer efficacy............

491.1.2007 15:41

Hey Zippy! Heaven forbid you get so comfortable with anything that you become effective, lol.

501.1.2007 15:46

moviegram ya think? or play well made old games and programs and find out that newer sh!t sucks. I'd rather have them repackage older stuff and resale it then pull crap out of their arse and call it "new"........

511.1.2007 17:40

i just finished reading that article. oh my go d are you kidding me.
i am looking to get another laptop and replace my desktop. vista will never never touch any machine in my house ever. xp pro 4life



521.1.2007 22:41

Dear Mr Gates Currently, I have 4 computers,(all P4 1.2/1.4 512mg) 3 in my business and 1 in my home (all attached by network cable through an adsl router with printers and most of the things you'd expect in an office enviroment) all running windows XP Sp2 Works and my accounts package. If I move to your new operating system, apparently I'll have to buy 4 new machines just to cope with it. When we switched from win9x to winxp, it was because win9x was simply pants and we had to swallow the expense. But we're not doing it again just because you're going to eventually stop supporting XP ...So just to warn you ....... Because of all this, I've started experimenting with Linux and as soon as I figure out which accounts package is the best to change to (much cheaper than 4 new machines) ...Microsoft are history!

531.1.2007 23:13

Gutmann's article touches just the tip of the iceberg! Reality shows that GREED is all that motivates BIG M$ and followers... Working hard four years just to make our computing life miserable, pushing BEHEMOTH bloatware as a NEW, Improved OS, just to make us dump all our existing hardware and start from scratch, for what? Their profits? Where is the gain of our poor guy Jo Blow, who wants to use his PC for his own good?... Quoting ZIppyDSM, we ARE Sheeple! (whatever that means)... People will continue to rush to the store and blindly buy NEW bloatware JUST to be the FIRST to brag about it (as in seeing that very bad movie)... People will go in numbers and buy new "VISTA-READY" rigs, just for the bragging rights, thus encouraging their scam and profits - and dropping good machines! Good people should vote with their checkbooks, credit cards and indiference! Perhaps, that would send a message to the Big Bloat that 'Nough is 'Nough! Give us friendly, secure and simple OS, and we'll buy!

542.1.2007 3:03

h8breed if you are going to stick to that I see you building your own computers from here on.
I work for a large company and their os of choice is still Windows 2000. I don't see Vista replacing the work place os on a large scale. No one would ever be able to get their work done anyway as they would be too busy answering the questions that pop up. The os's have gotten more and more bloated as years go by. I have not installed any programs on that trial os and it is taking almost 8GB from the hard drive. Just for comparison's sake you used to be able to have a 4GB hard drive with os of 98 for example with all your programs and so on. All that space they take so they can infuse the os with 'protection' that would disable some of our most basic computer needs such as backing up. Maybe they have forgotten who uses the computer. Don't mind me; I'm still pissed that I need a 'license' for cds that I own to keep their music on my computer.

552.1.2007 3:39

tabletpc, I am glad you are happy with your Vista trial. My question to you is: Can you run the screensavers? I have ati's all-in-wonder Radeon 7500 and they don't run here. I have been looking for an upgrade to get more video ram but I was mildly surprized that this card was not really good enough to run their new screensavers. I am not a gamer; I do video capture and editing which may or may not be enchanced by DirectX 10.

562.1.2007 5:49

You know, I've been thinking since I posted earlier today...

........and I think a huge money making opportunity is about to present itself to people who’re thinking laterally.

Think about it, as a consultant, you're often paid for your services and if you're asked about what services you can provide

and you answer

Well, I can give you a free operating system, an office product not dissimilar in a practical sense to Microshafts Office, a photo editing/graphic art program and all the things you need for your business, email, internet access, etc, etc, etc, in fact everything apart from an accounts package, that you'd have to buy whether you're on Microshaft or Linux (or even Mac for that matter) anyway.


and

You don't even need to update your computer or hardware to use it, (assuming you're using a contemporary Microshaft product already), the support isn't likely to be going away anytime soon and is likely to improve as the client base increases and you're not restricted by silly security policies put in place by mega paranoid Richmond at the behast of the entertainment industry.


Surely that’s got to be an unbeatable deal hasn't it?


Who knows, in the future, the old adage "You'll never get fired for buying Microsoft" will, in the fullness of time become "You'll never get hired, if you're still buying Microsoft"

Talk about Microshaft opening up to competition and being about to shoot itself in the foot with Vista.


If I'm only using 10% of my brain ....why can't I use the other 90% to store MP3's?

572.1.2007 5:57

I think Gutmann's arguments are fairly empty. It took the discontinuation of all previous MS OSs before XP outsold the older OSs. In 3-4 years the hardware improvements will take care of VISTA’s performance. On the other hand, in that same time frame it is just as certain that the hackers will have fully compromised all the systems they wanted to by that time. Maybe persons will not want to buy VISTA just to play Blu-ray. But none of that matters, because when all new computers are shipped with VISTA installed that is what we will use. Microsoft does not care about the small battles they know they will win the war. MS may be making up to the DRM for allowing Media Player to RIP CDs by putting in all this crap. We all must remember most of the public will not buy third party software to circumvent VISTA. Most persons interested in that kind of thing are either cheap-skates or penniless students. My self included, even though I am probably less cheap than most members. I remember one member that wanted to make illegal copies of movies with unpaid for shareware then put copy protection back on so his roommates could not watch his movies. Most of us are not that cheap!

582.1.2007 8:04

Mez
The more I look at vista it more its like XP,bloated and wil take some time before the hardware will catch up to make the OS worth while.

Most reviwers are saying wait a year as they should vista is a monster and will be "better" the older it gets.


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

592.1.2007 9:28
advent
Inactive

I was in our local computer store today and asked what the situation was regarding new computers. All purchasers of new computers will be given the choice of vista or xp pro-their advice would be xp pro. I think that sums it up nicely.

602.1.2007 9:43

So since everyone seems anti-Vista, what is the main difference between XP Home, XP Pro, XP 64, and Vista?



613.1.2007 0:00

I'm not going to be changing for a while yet. It will just bog my machine down with endless, unwanted rubbish. When Microsoft come back with maybe a Service Pack to try and speed things up then I will consider it. Dave

623.1.2007 12:54

Anyone that does not build their own computers after this is out is going to have Vista. Anyone who gets calls when their friends computers have problems are going to have to know it. Windows defender does seem to be a good program. Being asked all the time if you started this operation continue is annoying. You would not need to buy new computers to use Vista for better security on business computers as long as you have min requirements. It's always better to stick with what you know and let the eager beavers be first to help get the bugs out. I think it is great MS is working on that ahead of time with the trial versions. You need better hardware to run Blu-ray and for gaming. People that spend over $400 for a video card are not going to have a problen shelling out for Vista. Question is how many of you are there out there and how many are just average users? I am surprised they did not come out with a home and power/pro version of Vista/Longhorn. All that being said, I don't know why they could not have come up with windows defender as a program for XP and DirectX 10 for XP and the ability to run new dvds without getting involved with the motion picture industy. They already stepped in it too deep with the music industry. OS's should serve the people who buy them; not the other way around. Oh yeah, I think that could be where the 'greed' comes in.

634.1.2007 12:55

I have Widows XP Home & Windows Defender. Windows Defender is a free download. Sticking to reg DVD's till the price drops BIG TIME on the HD or blue ray and they get the format wars well and settled!

644.1.2007 13:03

Well so it is! Thanks for the information, craftyzan. I guess I can find out now if that annoying window that pops up all the time saying: "if you started this action..." belongs belongs to Vista or the Windows Defender. http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/spyware/software/default.mspx

657.1.2007 20:19

Sheesh... so that's fun. Not being able to control any of the system is loads of fun. The computer is its own administrator. How fun is that? If you fart it restarts. That's fantastic! Movie producers are now programming the security measures for you? That's great, cuz we know they are trusting, reliable people to handle our security.

Let's not forget the best part; it seems that the overall protection of the precious premium content is even more important than overall quality and performance, not to mention security of the OS itself. It seems more important than saving your personal information from attacks, to even creating life-threatening situations for some real comedy.

The sad part is, this isn't a joke; Vista is still being distributed like this, to all the the unsuspecting people who thought they could rely on a name brand for quality and stability. Even though he says that his article is biased, I still think that you get at least half the truth from it, and it's pretty scary from what I see. I'd pray to whoever would listen to give these people some common sense and stop this from coming into fruition.

668.1.2007 4:37

Hi, As previously mentioned above it is true that in the very near future all PC's will come with vista pre-installed. A large retailer/manufacturer here in Amsterdam Holland is already offering a free upgrade to Vista on all PC's and laptops they sell, and I think it wont be long before Dell and the other big boys do the same.Plus considering that a new PC with Core 2 duo, 1 gig of ram and a 500 Gig hard drive costs only €800.00 (it was double that price less than 2 years ago) It wont make any difference, be honest unless you built your own PC from parts,who actually purchases an OS ?, I know I never have, it came already installed on my new PC as did 3/11,95,98-SE and XP-PRO which I'm now using, thus PC's and hardware are getting so cheap that I predict within the next 2 or 3 years they wont cost more than buying a new TV, and I'm sure Bill and Co know that, plus it looks good for MS to look like they care about the Movie and Music industry, when they know ! just as you should that within a year or so of release, all the DRM crap will have been hacked and most of the major bugs fixed (Vista Service Pack 2)And then I will be buying a new PC as usual.

678.1.2007 5:36

€800.00 ?? ..oh, is that all? So Let me get this straight. Lets assume that the four computers I've got now, do all that is needed of them. This Windows Vista thingy is going to help my staff type faster is it? No? So its going to bring me in more customers then? No? It'll be able to run my business when I'm holiday? No? So what then?, its a bit prettier and its now so full of useless stuff I don't need to run my business, that I have to buy four new machines in the next two years if I want to continue getting updates from Microsoft? In that case.......... To hell with the entertainment industry, I've got a $35 DVD player in the living room for watching films on, why do I have to suffer the expense and further agrovation just to keep the movie stars happy? Sorry to all you people who seem to think our mate Bill is doing us a all favour ...but you're wrong! It sucks, large style. Here's what I want from the next generation of operating system... Smaller, faster, more efficeint ...is that Vista? ..I don't think so!

688.1.2007 6:37

€800.00 ?? ..oh, is that all? So Let me get this straight. Lets assume that the four computers I've got now, do all that is needed of them. This Windows Vista thingy is going to help my staff type faster is it? No? So its going to bring me in more customers then? No? It'll be able to run my business when I'm holiday? No? So what then?, its a bit prettier and its now so full of useless stuff I don't need to run my business, that I have to buy four new machines in the next two years if I want to continue getting updates from Microsoft? In that case.......... To hell with the entertainment industry, I've got a $35 DVD player in the living room for watching films on, why do I have to suffer the expense and further agrovation just to keep the movie stars happy? Sorry to all you people who seem to think our mate Bill is doing us a all favour ...but you're wrong! It sucks, large style. Here's what I want from the next generation of operating system... Smaller, faster, more efficeint ...is that Vista? ..I don't think so! In reply to what you just said, (only €800 is that all?? ) well excuse me for thinking that €800 once every 4 or 5 years is a huge sum of money as I spend more than that during a summer vacation on food and drink, but to each his own, that you presume that I think that the sun shines out of Bill's arse is a big mistake. I don't I was just pointing out that everyone apart from people who like to collect antiques will probably buy a new PC roughly every 5 years and anyone buying a new PC in 2007 will most likely get Vista pre-installed. As to your company using 4 or 5 Pc's for the next year or 2 from my business experience that's just about how often most companys aquire new hardware anyway, but it would seem to me that you think the OS should remain the same and simply be improved on. That is not going to happen it never has and never will, of course you can buy yourself some Linux OS and run other software but that won't change a thing and in my opinion wont help you remain competitive, lets face it Gates has us all by the B***s and we just all hate to admit it

698.1.2007 6:51

You're excused for thinking $800 is a lot of money Jimathome, however, I'd like to point out that, given the choice of spending it on yet more unnecessary hardware, just to compensate for the laziness of Redmond and the inability of the entertainment industry to come to terms with pricing their products competatively thus making piracy unviable, or spending it on the holiday. ...I know which I'd choose!

709.1.2007 11:38

My Dear Yettie, You will find no argument from myself on that one, it's a catch 22 situation, to avail oneself of the new hardware the new software will be necassery and vise versa, it would seem to be that both of these industries have a symbiotic relationship based on greed, and I must admit my P4 2.4 Mhz machine with 2 Gigs of RAM a reasonable graphics card and 1 Terabyte of storage is more than ample for at least the next year or so as my machine is only 4 years old. and I need HD or Blu-ray like I need another hole in a certain part of my anatomy at the moment. okay when they cost $65 for a drive with both systems and the media costs about $0.80 a disk I'll be ordering one, but untill then hard drives are a cheaper solution. Cheers Jim

719.1.2007 13:19
advent
Inactive

Another article that may be of interest to those who may be tempted
to downgrade to vista,

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9075-2536050,00.html

729.1.2007 14:28

Vista jsut aint worth it unles you got money and time to deal with the WGA locking up your system becuse it wants to cal home to MS. between auto patcher and wga kill fck MS and their stupid protection schemes ,hell I cant even restore the OS I have to format and reinstall becuse it cant update itself when changing hardware...ggrrrrrr

739.1.2007 16:53
onimuusha
Inactive

yes yes microsoft are a bunch of useless jerks and they wont ever care unless vista dont sell. But we all know it will because for every smart person out there there is about 1 million total dumbasses who will say "yes mr.gates please ram this in my ass and charge me lots of money!!! Also let me spend hours upon hours downloading updates to fix your shoddy products" also Jimathome is there really a need to copy the whole comment your replying to? NO THERE F*CKING ISNT especially when its huge and its the message before your reply. hey i can understand a line or two but shitt

7411.1.2007 13:24

Hey oni, could you tone down the cursing a bit? Yes it's frustrating, but it's better to articulate your words better than the 4-letter equivalents. :)

7513.1.2007 9:49

Can I ask a question of all you knowledgable people?, one to which I can't find a definative answer. Do all these new copyrighting gizmos in Vista, actually stop someone with a cd player and a couple of microphones and someone with a plasma TV and camcorder from recording copyrighted material, squishing into mp3 or AVI and redistributing it? Because if it doesn't, this whole excercise by microsoft is totally pointless and why should we, as owners of perfectly good operating systems already, pay for this new system, that simply isn't going to achieve what its been designed to do? By the way, has anyone ever noticed that when there's a need for more ram, there's often an earthquake in the far east (probably in the car park of the companies who manufacture the stuff) at just about the same time? ...not that I'm cynical or anything, but perhaps we should stockpile some for when we have no choice but to swap to Vista!

7613.1.2007 9:59

You want more functionality? Go double OS, your current Microsucks if you got one, and a Linux. Don't do Vista.

7715.1.2007 11:45

Thats one price that doesn't drop much is Ram Memory, it doesn't come into Moore's Law catagory, but proccessors video cards and Hdd's do. Strange that eh!!

7815.1.2007 21:42

Originally posted by joe777:
Thats one price that doesn't drop much is Ram Memory, it doesn't come into Moore's Law catagory, but proccessors video cards and Hdd's do. Strange that eh!!
Its not that strange there one of the few electronic device/parts to have a life time warranty or soemthign like on them,so its reasonable.

Also HDD prices don't fall below 50. and a brand new 40GB HD pem or retail is still abotu 60-90$ 0_o

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

7916.1.2007 8:22

500 Gig Hdd in holland 149 Euros. Here in holland the Hdd prices always fall fast. Fair point about the life-time warranty on the Ram, but hey thats a con aswell cause who's gonna be using their ram for a lifetime, after all we are saying that, for example DDR1 will be obsolete in a few years so WTF why should Ram not fall into Moore's Law. Not WTF at you of course, but you see my point we are still being shafted, and 1 more point, who still has some old sticks of ram in the cuboard that never get used, waiting for some poor sod thats new to computing to get his hands on, and build him a PC?

8016.1.2007 18:43

Originally posted by joe777:
500 Gig Hdd in holland 149 Euros. Here in holland the Hdd prices always fall fast. Fair point about the life-time warranty on the Ram, but hey thats a con aswell cause who's gonna be using their ram for a lifetime, after all we are saying that, for example DDR1 will be obsolete in a few years so WTF why should Ram not fall into Moore's Law. Not WTF at you of course, but you see my point we are still being shafted, and 1 more point, who still has some old sticks of ram in the cuboard that never get used, waiting for some poor sod thats new to computing to get his hands on, and build him a PC?
well for 1 its their warranty unike others they have a higher form of warranty on thier stuff 2 in order to shave 100-200 off new ramm they balance it out on the older ramm, I remember the days when 1GB of ramm was 500-900$ reason 3 would be price game if they keep ramm high then you have to decide to upgrade now or later,I am in a dillema upgrade ramm for 200 or update the whole thing for 600.

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

8116.1.2007 22:08

Hey Guys: let it be!
You've just forgot where you started from!
Calm down an SMELL The OS!
mTonto


mtonto

8217.1.2007 7:40

Zippy admit it!! we are being shafted no matter how you dress it up. People will buy the new gear and OS's and force the rest of us there, and well thats what the point of this debate is, vista is shafting us, and all the hardware needed to make vista 100% efficient, is also shafting us. Please read my post about testing vista ( personaly ) before, any flaming. Lol Lol

8317.1.2007 7:49

Originally posted by joe777:
Zippy admit it!! we are being shafted no matter how you dress it up. People will buy the new gear and OS's and force the rest of us there, and well thats what the point of this debate is, vista is shafting us, and all the hardware needed to make vista 100% efficient, is also shafting us. Please read my post about testing vista ( personaly ) before, any flaming. Lol Lol
I dislike ramm and HDD prices because they don't fall below 50,paying 50+ for a new 40GB HD is evil....or 50 for 512 of DDR mem is as evil,CPU prices are not so bad they come down fast enough...almost to fast sometimes.

Vista is evil anyway you look at it.

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

8417.1.2007 8:43

what would you need to run vistas properly??

8517.1.2007 8:58
MasterChu
Inactive

Moving to Langjökull in Iceland - so all the info I posted is moving with me!

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 11 Jun 2007 @ 16:13

8617.1.2007 9:04

MasterChu
really depends on what you use,ahve you ran across the cant find rights thing and a movie wont play yet? I run into that now and then with DVDs.


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

8717.1.2007 9:18

Masterchu

I'm not following you on why vista's dvd playback quality is such a huge advantage over its predecessor ...A: I'd rather spend €35 on a new DVD player to watch my DVD's in the living room on my big tv, than €800 on a new computer (plus an unknown amount on a 32" wide screen monitor) to be able to run Vista to do the same thing and B: if the software is so much better why aren't we demanding they realease it for XP?

Personally I'd like to up the performance of my pc by the addition of new processors and memory, not just make up for the "slugware" we're being presented with.

But perhaps nearly 20 years in and around the computer industry qualifies me as a noob and I don't understand all this new fandangled technobable about over weight bloated software and I should simply stop complaining about being ripped off and get back in line like the rest of the brainwashed!


If I'm only using 10% of my brain ....why can't I use the other 90% to store MP3's?

8817.1.2007 11:15
morguex
Inactive

I have a question.
Why is it that no matter what forum or thread you goto "ZippyDSM"
always has a answer?

8917.1.2007 12:01
MasterChu
Inactive

Moving to Langjökull in Iceland - so all the info I posted is moving with me!

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 11 Jun 2007 @ 16:13

9017.1.2007 12:14

morguex
Google and allot of free time on my hands,and for everything I don't know is NEGATIVE X5 0_o


MasterChu
I have 2 or 3 dvd players one had more issues than the other because of the copy protection dvds have,Windose meia player cant play them,and for the first time VLN cant play a DVD had to gt any DVD to be able to run it 0-o

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 17 Jan 2007 @ 12:15

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

9117.1.2007 13:32
morguex
Inactive

Thanks Zippy, I hope you did'nt take my question the wrong way.

You are on alot of these threads and forums, and your answers are always good.

Peace all

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