AfterDawn: Tech news

Blu-ray continued to outsell HD DVD in February

Written by James Delahunty (Google+) @ 10 Mar 2007 20:20 User comments (33)

Blu-ray continued to outsell HD DVD in February According to figures from trade magazine Video Business, Blu-ray titles outsold HD DVD titles by a margin or about 2:1 in February. Around 250,000 Blu-ray movies were sold in the month ahead of 125,000 HD DVD titles sold. While the boost in Blu-ray sales is no doubt helped by the PlayStation 3 (PS3) sales in North America, sales of the title "The Departed" appear to rule out some other offered reasons for the format outselling HD DVD.
Blu-ray buyers grabbed 20,000 copies of The Departed on Blu-ray, while 13,000 bought the movie on HD DVD. While this is not a 2:1 margin, it does appear at first glance to attack the argument that Blu-ray only outsold HD DVD because there were more releases in the time frame. According to High-Def Digest, there were 55 releases of Blu-ray titles in the first 8 weeks of 2007, compared to 23 HD DVD releases.

Although, to be fair, it must be noted that HD DVD version of The Departed is a HD DVD/SD DVD combo disc and so costs $5 more than the Blu-ray version. Sony VP Rich Marty said that he expects the gap between Blu-ray and HD DVD to further widen with the Sony title, Casino Royal, headed for Blu-ray and (of course) not HD DVD. However, Universal VP Ken Graffeo warned against drawing conclusions from these figures.

"You can’t look at the last two months as a trend or as what the consumer wants to do in this format... It’s really an artificial, short time period," he said. He also suggested that there are other reasons for Blu-ray's boost in sales, including two-for-one offers made by retailers, and Amazon's 50% reduction on selected Blu-ray titles.

Source:
High-Def Digest

Previous Next  

33 user comments

110.3.2007 21:51

cant wait until i read what all the retarded sony haters have to say

210.3.2007 21:53

i agree that you cant tell who will win just by the short time frame, but if sony keeps it up with the titles, and the deals.. its no question.

how does hd expect to win when they release half of what br does

310.3.2007 22:19

yeah men!!! this will end DVD-R against DVD+R war...

who cares?

really?

410.3.2007 23:44
BobbyBlu
Inactive

Quote:
"You can’t look at the last two months as a trend or as what the consumer wants to do in this format... It’s really an artificial, short time period," he said. He also suggested that there are other reasons for Blu-ray's boost in sales, including two-for-one offers made by retailers, and Amazon's 50% reduction on selected Blu-ray titles.
This guys is dumb as hell the facts is your getting your azz whipped & with EU PS3 bout to come out this month the gap will get bigger.Universal VP Ken Graffeo you need to worry about the shakeup that going on at Universal your just the VP the higher up hasn't said to much on this matter so it would be best to keep your mouth close right now your the only one who has been running your mouth about this lately.

511.3.2007 0:50
pigfister
Inactive

Originally posted by jetyi83:
cant wait until i read what all the retarded sony haters have to say
its sad how so many peoples jobs and lives will be affected by the outcome all because of profit and the Mine IS Better Than Yours school yard approach and they achieve this by lying and exploitation but all you can comment is a selfish pointless remark of hatred towards someone's choice.
the bottom line is you have been blinded by a companies public relations marketing campaign like some dumb hick that follows and believes the War On Terror! omg read some books dude.

611.3.2007 3:00

Quote:
[quote]"You can’t look at the last two months as a trend or as what the consumer wants to do in this format... It’s really an artificial, short time period," he said. He also suggested that there are other reasons for Blu-ray's boost in sales, including two-for-one offers made by retailers, and Amazon's 50% reduction on selected Blu-ray titles.

This guys is dumb as hell the facts is your getting your azz whipped & with EU PS3 bout to come out this month the gap will get bigger.Universal VP Ken Graffeo you need to worry about the shakeup that going on at Universal your just the VP the higher up hasn't said to much on this matter so it would be best to keep your mouth close right now your the only one who has been running your mouth about this lately.
I think he means when BR can sustain a high sale rate over 1-3 years then maybe Sony can claim BR is getting somewhere until then keep the rhetoric in check.

711.3.2007 7:51

some of my freinds pointed out long before ps3 came out that blu ray would win the hd format war simply becuase its included with the ps3. i was sceptical but now that i look at the numbers its happening exactly like they said, i should have bought some stock! sonys agreements with other production companies, plus its own ability to make great movies that will only come out on blu ray only seals the deal (casino royal is definantly NOT one of those great movies).

811.3.2007 8:01

Originally posted by georgeluv:
some of my freinds pointed out long before ps3 came out that blu ray would win the hd format war simply becuase its included with the ps3. i was sceptical but now that i look at the numbers its happening exactly like they said, i should have bought some stock! sonys agreements with other production companies, plus its own ability to make great movies that will only come out on blu ray only seals the deal (casino royal is definantly NOT one of those great movies).
it could happen but I see no end for 2+ years simply because both sides are willing to go into debt in order to "win",theres still a high chance they will break even and join forces in some way.

911.3.2007 10:18

jetyi83 Just got a month ban for his fanboy flame starting comment.

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, who makes worthless fanboy comments meant to start flames will be banned immediately!




My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33

1011.3.2007 10:48
janrocks
Inactive

Why don't fanboys just state facts?

Blu-ray Disc is catching up with HD DVD, at least in terms of US pre-recorded media retail sales, the most recently published figures from sell-through video sales tracker Nielsen VideoScan show. In the first two weeks of January, BD media outsold HD DVD.

Nielsen VideoScan's numbers come from US trade publication Home Media Magazine by way of website High-Def Digest. There are no raw sales figures, either by revenue or by units, but an indexed comparison of the two formats' over-the-counter unit sales.

By the end of the first week of January, HD DVD retail sales were 47.14 per cent of BD's. The following week, that figure had fallen to 38.36 per cent. That said, more HD DVDs have been bought in the US in total than BD media, but that's no great surprise because the hardware has been available for longer. Toshiba shipped the first HD DVD player in the US in April 2006 - Samsung's BD player, again the first of its kind, didn't ship until the Autumn.

As of 14 January, BD's retail unit sales were 92.4 per cent of HD DVD's, up from 85.05 per cent at the end of the previous week. At that rate, BD sales should surpass HD DVD purchases very soon.

Earlier this year, HD DVD backers said 175,000 players shipped in the US up to 5 January. That contrasts with the million-plus PlayStation 3s Sony claimed to have shipped by roughly the same date. In both cases, shipments do not necessarily equate to sales, but crucially BD-capable devices are clearly outselling HD DVD machines.

Microsoft is now shipping its Xbox 360 HD DVD drive, of course, and Toshiba offering updated, slimmer HD DVD players too, but it's hard to see them matching the PS3

In total sales to date HD-DVD is still ahead.

1111.3.2007 11:17

Originally posted by janrocks:
In total sales to date HD-DVD is still ahead.
Not according to Videoscan:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/list/3
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798272

Quote:

VideoScan: Overall Blu-ray Disc Sales Now Surpass HD DVD
Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:11 PM ET

Preliminary disc sales data from Nielsen VideoScan for the week ending Feb 18 shows Blu-ray in the lead for disc sales since inception -- the first time Blu-ray has surpassed HD DVD in this category.

The numbers, as first reported by Home Media Magazine, show Blu-ray as having now sold 100 units to every 98.71 units of HD DVD since the inception of both formats.

Crippled by a dearth of new releases and what some attribute to the "PS3 Effect," HD DVD has seen its healthy early lead in the high-def format dwindle over the first six weeks of 2007. In fact, as we've previously reported, since VideoScan numbers became publicly available in early January, Blu-ray has led in weekly sales data by a factor of at least 2:1.


This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 11 Mar 2007 @ 11:19

1211.3.2007 11:22
hughjars
Inactive

Here's some shocking news (if you're a shallow-minded fool)......Blu-ray will outsell HD-DVD - on a month by month basis - for most of this year, maybe even in every month of this year.

Big f*****g deal.

So what?

The high def DVD market is tiny.

Playing this game of ratios and percentages (which basically boil down to a rather childish 'my tiny number of sales are bigger than your tiny number of sales) is really missing the point.

Neither format has anywhere near the size of sales as the mainstream mass-market.
They're (even combined!) several years away (5 - 10yrs or more?......or maybe even never escaping the 'niche' at all!?) from matching nevermind over-taking the SD DVD numbers.
They're so small compared as to be almost invisible.
0.5% of total movie disc sales IIRC......and none of this obvious & totally transparent attempt at creating 'momentum' since CES 2007 alters that one jot.

Neither has the discount vouchers for BD movies in PS3 boxes nor any of the freebies.

Both are, apparantly profitable so delusions that anybody is going away anywhere soon are just ridiculous.

Whether BD's reliance on PS3 comes back to haunt it remains to be seen - personally I think HD-DVD will sew up the a/v market (at all levels......something BD is not covering right now) in 2008 - at least as far as being the clear obvious and affordable 'next gen choice' for most is concerned - thanks to China's impact and the imminent affordable HD-DVD PC burners.
BD may well be left like UMD as a proprietary format for the PS3 pretty much alone.

But regardless of what may or may not happen in future the fact remains that the mainstream retail SD DVD market sells many many titles every year in the multi-millions.

Trying to make these 'we've won' kind of laughably wild claims on the basis of tiny sales numbers (at best and in a couple of instances only) in low five figures is the height of blind ignorance.

That's why the Universal view is the correct one.
The 'game' isn't even begun.

No doubt we'll all be 'treated' to a risible 3rd 'we won' announcement some time this year from the BD crowd but the real truth is that this hasn't even got started yet.

One interesting thing we do now know though is that the PS3 has not brought the vast flood of BD sales some imagined; it has not been without impact at all, of course, only a fool would have thought otherwise but it is quite obvious that the knockout blow some imagined has singularly failed to happen.

The PS3 is a games machine (and with the games situation for it gradually improving it's pretty likely that the unusual initial focus on movies will return to games, permanently; which would be natural).

HD-DVD still has much lower priced players coming to market later this year and PC burners at "a significantly lower cost than the BD competition" are due very soon too.

The retail movie sales tell the truth (when you actually get to see any numbers data as opposed to the spun ratio or percentage nonsense).
Both formats are selling in minute tiny numbers.

Building such mountains out of these obvious molehills really is either a deluded short-sighted fools game or, frankly, a lying propagandists game.

......and those comments are merely the truth. There's no "hate" in there for anyone.
FFS how sad is that, real strong human emotions like "hate" and/or 'love' for a CE corporation; a mere economic entity, Gawd save us from such idiotic lunacy.
Do try and wake up some of you people, eh?

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 11 Mar 2007 @ 14:40

1311.3.2007 12:11
BobbyBlu
Inactive

Quote:
The mainstream retail SD DVD market sells many titles in the multi-millions.
I'm not understanding you this has nothing to do with HD-DVD & Blu-ray sales other than all HD-DVD are going to be a combo which the price of HD-DVD movies are higher than Blu-ray now.

Although, to be fair, it must be noted that HD DVD version of The Departed is a HD DVD/SD DVD combo disc and so costs $5 more than the Blu-ray version.

Quote:
HD-DVD still has much lower priced players coming to market later this year and PC burners at "a significantly lower cost than the BD competition" are due very soon too
Sony has there cheaper player bout to release also.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070226/ap_o..._blu_ray_player

Quote:
In total sales to date HD-DVD is still ahead.
I would like to see a link to this.This was true in Dec 06 but Blu-ray has surpassed HD-DVD back in Feb 07.Jan 07 Blu-ray out sold HD-DVD 3-1 last month it was 2-1.With the release of PS3 in Eur this month that gap is going to get bigger.

Quote:
Building such mountains out of these obvious molehills really is either a deluded short-sighted fools game or, frankly, a lying propagandists game.
3-1 or 2-1 is not molehills that a very big gap there is nothing small about this.Right now the facts are Blu-ray has passed HD-DVD in movies sales & unit sales(PS3 it a BD player)that the truth.Has there been a winner of either format NO but it don't look good for HD-DVD right now.Thats truth.

1411.3.2007 14:13

@hughjars: The market for the HD formats may be tiny but the war raging among its supporters is one of the most intense (and most entertaining) in recent history. Just look at avsforums for example. The war there is easily 100 times bloodier than here and they've had several casualties already. It's gotten so bad that they've had to start a "format neutral" thread for those who don't want to get caught in the crossfire - like a Switzerland in World War II.

Anyway, you should know by now that trying to talk sense into supporters of either side is an exercise in futility and it will just get worse. It will be easier to convince a Manchester United fan that the Premiership title is meaningless and is of no consequence.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 11 Mar 2007 @ 14:23

1511.3.2007 14:20
janrocks
Inactive

I don't know why I even bother getting involved..
Hughjars and error5 have the right idea.. I'm not really interested either way as I can see much better solutions for films and games than spinning disks. I have no intention of buying either format. Plain old dvd is good enough for me, and 99% of the people I know.

The quote on total disk sales is from an article in the UK Financial Times 5/3/07

1611.3.2007 14:39
hughjars
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]I'm not understanding you
-I know you don't.

Sorry and all but reference to the total retail movie disc market is obviously going outside of the narrow confines of your flag-waving fan-ism.

Quote:
this has nothing to do with HD-DVD & Blu-ray sales other than all HD-DVD are going to be a combo which the price of HD-DVD movies are higher than Blu-ray now.
- No.
Clearly what you mean is you want to keep ignoring the size of the total market and devote yourself to the ridiculous ratio and percentage game-playing.

Obviously in those circumstances the fact that the best selling BD movies sales are a tiny fraction compared to the SD DVD equivalent will mean nothing to you and you can keep on fascinating yourself with the 'my favourite format's tiny movie sales are bigger than the others'.

Quote:
Sony has there cheaper player bout to release also.
- The supposedly "cheap" Sony player is planned at the same $600 as the PS3.

Toshiba retail the HD A1 at a (still too high for the mainstream mass-market) $300.

Clearly Sony's idea of "cheaper" is really only comparable or relevant to the outrageous prices of the rest of the BD line-up (many of which are well over $1000 a pop in the US).

Quote:
3-1 or 2-1 is not molehills
- It is simply playing the stupid ratio/percentage game
(not to mention one that is wholly dependant on the sources used).

Why are they so reluctant to discuss actual numbers sold - if it is not to play these stupid insulting games, hmmmmm?

The whole point is that compared to the total movie disc market high def in all flavours accounts for 0.5% of the total movie disc market.

Anyone who imagines a slightly greater proportion of that 0.5% spells anything significant is just kidding themselves.......or worse, just trying to kid others.

......but just while we're on the subject the comparable release 'The Departed' sold 20,000 in the first week on BD and 13,000 on HD-DVD.
Total disc sales are around even.
Your maths might call that "2:1 or 3:1" but mine dont.
It is the stuff of 'mountains out of molehills'.

For anyone interested here's a more rational assessment of things including comments from Paramount's guy Vito mandato;
(Paramount being a dual format studio, like Warners and presumably with less of an axe to grind either way) -

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6422896.html
Quote:
2007 MARCH 8: SAN DEIGO —
The good news-bad news message that high-definition DVD is a real market but neither HD DVD nor Blu-ray Disc is likely to win the format war this year was woven throughout the DisplaySearch Flat Panel Display Conference 2007, held here March 5-8.

On the positive side, sales of stand-alone high-def DVD players in both formats on a dollar basis combined to represent 8% of the conventional DVD player market during January—twice high-def’s share during the fourth quarter of 2006—said Ross Young, DisplaySearch founder and president.
Also during January, monthly PlayStation 3 sales on a dollar basis surpassed those of standard-definition DVD players.

Sharply growing adoption of HDTV sets in U.S. homes have pushed consumers to seek out accompanying next-generation players.
The ongoing DVD format war compounded by consumer confusion, however, will work to curb HD DVD and BD adoption for some time, speakers said.

For the last two months, twice as many Blu-ray discs have sold as HD DVD discs, noted conference speaker Vito Mandato, an executive consultant to Paramount Home Entertainment.
But he does not see that as a sign that the end of the format war is imminent.

“Some studio chiefs have claimed to have won, but quite honestly the war continues,” said Mandato, who led his speech with the disclaimer that his views may not represent the views of Paramount.

Mandato predicts the number of hardware units in homes by the end of 2007 will be at 1.7 million for each format.
On the HD DVD side, that includes 1.2 million stand-alone players and 500,000 Xbox 360 add-on drives.
For BD, Mandato is counting only 22%, or 1.2 million, of the 5.5 million PS3 units projected to be sold during the year, plus 500,000 stand-alone players, because his analysis suggests that just 22% of PS3 households purchase movies regularly
(and might even be less as some of that % will not be interested in high def).

Industry sources say both BD and HD DVD stand-alone player sales were about equal in February.
BD stand-alone sales were miniscule compared to sales of the PS3, which one source said surpassed 150,000 units during the month.

Sales are likely to grow slowly until consumers have a better understanding of what high-definition DVD and the two separate formats are, said Russ Crupnick, NPD Group VP-senior industry analyst of entertainment.

A recent NPD survey showed 83% of DVD buyers said they had bought HD DVD titles, and 69% said they had bought BD titles.
NPD determined that most had actually bought neither, based on the fact that the titles they reported purchasing were not released in either format.

“So in consumer’s minds, next-generation is closing in on a 2% share of all DVD sales,” said Crupnick.
“But in fact, [HD DVD and BD sales] are less than 0.5%.”

Crupnick added that there is stiffening competition for BD and HD DVD as other media forms gain steam. Currently, iTunes’ TV and movie digital sales are 10 times the size of high-def title sales.

Fewer than 10% of DVD buyers said they intend to buy HD DVD or BD in the next six months, when accounting for both HDTV owners and non-owners.

“Research, not speculation, shows that consumers are wildly confused,” said Crupnick. “We need to clarify and educate in order to get that purchase intent from 10% to over 50%.”
Even the BD supporters reveal some very interesting little nuggets of info -

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6422898.html

Quote:
Studios released about twice as many movies on Blu-ray during January and February, Graffeo and others noted. HD DVD studios will be releasing more movies in coming months, about equal to the number their Blu-ray counterparts are putting out.
But what about BD's supposed studio support advantage?

Quote:
During the first half of the year, Blu-ray studios are planning to release 265 movies on the format, while HD DVD studios have 257 movies planned for release.
Current number of titles available is almost identical, as are these figures.
So, from now until the middle of the year at least BD's oft-touted software advantage is pretty much zero (and 600 HD-DVD titles were announced at CES 2007 for this year compared to 250 by BD back then......some of which were recently postponed indefinitely).

Quote:
Has there been a winner of either format NO
- Well done, that's the first rational thing you've managed to say in ages about this.

Quote:
but it don't look good for HD-DVD right now.
- .....and then you went and spoiled it.

The truth is it is far too early to say.

But we do know that BD has made it's big move, is currently utterly reliant on PS3 and that it has utterly failed to deliver the knockout blow for them.

The next series of big strategic moves are for HD-DVD to make (the genuinely inexpensive HD-DVD players & those "significantly cheaper than the BD competition" HD-DVD PC burners).

We'll start to see how this shapes up in 2008/9.

HD-DVD has seen PS3 launch in Japan, the US (and soon Europe) and has had a spell of lower movie releases compared to BD, that is all.

There was no point in pretending that these very early days and such pifflingly tiny numbers (when taking account of the entire retail movie disc market) amounted to much.

This 'war' will last years.

====================================================================
Originally posted by error5:
you should know by now that trying to talk sense into supporters of either side is an exercise in futility
- Do you know why I bother?

It's cos a couple of people here on the forum have thanked me for providing info they hadn't seen before and asked I carry on putting stuff up.

I do have my own view, of course, but I always try and back it with something tangible.

Originally posted by error5:
It will be easier to convince a Manchester United fan that the Premiership title is meaningless and is of no consequence.
- LMAO.

but as a MUFC fan myself (yeah yeah yeah) I feel compelled to......

*stare blankly* Eh?!

What do you mean?

Naaa, sorry mate I don't get you.

What are you on about?
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 11 Mar 2007 @ 15:05

1711.3.2007 14:40

Even if you have a PS3, you still need an HDTV to watch this crap, and the adoption rate, though growing, it not "1 per every household" regardless of how many consoles or stand alone players are sold, and considering you need the player AND an HDTV to watch either format. As long as the movies stay at $30 a pop and the studios stay split on both sides, there is no clear end in site to this "format war".

1811.3.2007 14:50
hughjars
Inactive

IIRC HD TV has a market penetration of less than 20% in the USA and far far less in Europe and the UK who have had HD for a far shorter period (this is another one that 'they' love to play games with; 'they' love to talk about how in the UK 50% of TV sales are now for HD TVs but are very cagey about giving the size of HD in relation to the total market).

IIRC the USA has had HD TV services and HD TVs on general retail for several years and Sky HD in Europe and the UK for instance launched in summer 2006.

Quote:
By the end of 2005 there were 19m households with HDTV sets in the US (17% of total TV households) with 11m of these watching HD broadcasts. At the same time 14% (6.7m) of TV households in Japan were HD ready.

On a global basis, by the end of 2010 the number of HD ready households will reach 174m or 22% of TV households. The figure will be 59% in the US, 66% in Japan and 30% in Western Europe.

http://www.screendigest.com/reports/06hi...dmore/view.html
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 11 Mar 2007 @ 14:59

1911.3.2007 15:17

Quote:
Naaa, sorry mate I don't get you.

What are you on about?
I was speaking metaphorically but I guess you need a little help with this. What I'm trying to point out is: Supporters of both HD formats are as passionate and as committed as a typical Man United fan.

I still think it's a lost cause. A rabid fan is a rabid fan - whether it be football or competing HD formats.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 11 Mar 2007 @ 15:28

2011.3.2007 19:31
BobbyBlu
Inactive

Quote:
I still think it's a lost cause. A rabid fan is a rabid fan - whether it be football or competing HD formats.
That is so true a rabid fan is a rabid fan no matter how much the truth is exposed to them.They just wont accept the truth no matter what.


Quote:
'The Departed' sold 20,000 in the first week on BD and 13,000 on HD-DVD.
Thats 7000 more copies so you think thats small OMG.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 11 Mar 2007 @ 19:37

2111.3.2007 21:38

I'm still trying to wrap my head around why people care sooooo much about something as stupid as a format. Paintings, sculpture, music, film and people are things to get passionate about but here we have folks getting maniacal and nasty about unimportant little plastic discs. Unbelieveable.




My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33

2211.3.2007 23:29
webe123
Inactive

The thing is....that regular DVD, HD DVD and Blue Ray...all PUT TOGETHER do not even TOUCH the amount of movies and games that are on p2p networks right now. There is a HUGE market potential if someone could ever tap into it!

I see this "my format is better than yours" attitude and I just have to laugh. People fighting over a HD format that in itself is not even a drop in the bucket compared to files on p2p. And DRM'ed to the hilt at that! If I were a retailer, I would try to go after the p2per's and make a way that they could buy my product reasonably and do my best to keep on their good side...instead of treating them all as criminals.

I disagree with the attitude that everyone on p2p only wants things for free....a lot on there WOULD pay you good money, if they knew you were offering them a product at a DECENT price, with no DRM restrictions and they were not going to be treated like an idiot. A LOT of people on p2p are tired of the increasing restrictions that the music and movie industry are placing on their products....and even when they try and do the right thing and use a "legal" service....they get burned by bad downloads, incompatibale formats and the basic attitude by the entertainment induustry that "you just have to take what you can get from us...because that is all we offer!" Years ago, that was the case...but with p2p on the scene, things have changed in the consumers favor! Now THEY have a choice!

The problem I see is that some companies today want to treat people like dirt and then turn around and want those same people to purchase their product....RIAA anyone? I think the music industry dropped the ball with napster....they had a chance at something that would have dwarfed itunes. But they missed the boat and new networks sprung up after napster itself was killed off.

But it is not too late for new ideas....Even some in the music and movie industry realize DRM simply does not work and have made moves to change what they can. If HD DVD or Blue Ray really want to be bought by the masses, they are going to have to change some of their ways of thinking in my opinion.

2312.3.2007 2:12
pigfister
Inactive

OK then b4 you rush out and purchase your next gen player read the facts on DRM, AACS, BD+

WIKI AACS

Wiki Sony BD+

Wiki HDMI

Wiki Blu-ray SPDC

Originally posted by "wiki":
Self-Protecting Digital Content (SPDC), can allow players judged "bad" to be effectively disabled,[16] preventing their use by their purchaser or subsequent owners.[17] See Advanced Access Content System (AACS).

SONY WILL HAVE THE ABILITY TO REMOTE DISABLE PEOPLES HARDWARE!


Originally posted by "[url:
www.businessweek.com[/url]"]High-Tech TV
By David H. Holtzman

The DVD War Against Consumers

Makers of new DVD players are going too far in copyright protection efforts, but buyers needn't take it lying down

Having grown tired of one war, we're on the eve of another, complete with alliances, secret codes, and laser beams. No, not Iran -- it's the fight over the next generation of DVD devices. The real battle isn't between Sony (SNE) and Microsoft (MSFT) and their chosen formats, it's between the manufacturers and us -- the consumers, the ones who ultimately pay for it all. And the battle is over Digital Rights Management (DRM), because in addition to increased storage, these new disks are packed full of copy-protection functions, some of which impair our ability to use the content we pay for, the way we like and are legally entitled to.

Sony is championing a standard called Blu-ray, Microsoft is pushing HD-DVD. Both formats have plenty of corporate backers. The upcoming PlayStation 3 will support Blu-ray, the Xbox 360 will get an add-on drive that uses HD-DVD.

Both standards incorporate sophisticated DRM technology. The current crop of DVDs uses a copy protection scheme that encrypts the disk, but that scheme was broken several years ago and the hack was widely incorporated in innumerable freeware DVD decryption programs. The movie studios have vowed not to let that happen to them again.

BORDER PATROL. But all software-based copy-protection schemes can be broken. The only way a DRM can really work is to control all of the hardware the video data flow through, including the monitor. The problem is that at some point an unencrypted video signal is sent to a display device. It can be split off before it gets there or videotaped once it's on the screen.

The AACS (Advanced Access Content System) standard supported by both the Sony and Microsoft camps addresses this problem. The standard calls for scaling down HD content to a low resolution if the player isn't hooked up to an HDCP-compliant connection. HDCP (High Bandwidth Digital Content Protection) is a DRM system invented by Intel (INTC) that attempts to control video and audio as it flows out of a player and onto a display. In other words, if the player is connected to a monitor without the right cables, the quality of the image will be deliberately degraded.

Blu-ray, however, goes beyond the AACS, incorporating two other protection mechanisms: The ROM Mark is a cryptographic element overlaid on a "legitimate" disk. If the player doesn't detect the mark, then it won't play the disc. This will supposedly deal with video-camera-in-the-theatre copies.

STRANGLEHOLD ON CONTENT. Even more extreme is a scheme called BD+ that deals with the problem of what to do when someone cracks the encryption scheme. The players can automatically download new crypto if the old one is broken. But there's an ominous feature buried in this so-called protection mechanism: If a particular brand of player is cryptographically "compromised," the studio can remotely disable all of the affected players. In other words, if some hacker halfway across the globe cracks Sony's software, Sony can shut down my DVD player across the Net.

The Blu-ray's DRM scheme is simply anti-consumer. The standard reflects what the studios really want, which is no copying of their material at all, for any reason. They're clearly willing to take active and unpleasant measures to enforce this. Last year's Sony/BMG rootkit fiasco comes to mind (see BW Online, 11/29/05, "Sony BMG's Costly Silence"). The possibility that they would disable thousands of DVD players, not because they're hacked but just because they might be vulnerable, would have been unthinkable a few years ago; it's clearly an option today.


What do consumers really want? We want high-quality video and sound, of course. These days we also want interoperability. When we buy content, we expect to play it on every gadget that we own. The newest video servers require content to be copied to the hard drives, so that they can stream video throughout the house. Soon, we'll also want to take the movies that we paid for with us on small multimedia players like video iPods.

OTHER ANSWERS. I support the rights of the studios to protect their content right up until it stops me from doing something reasonable that I want to do. Blu-ray crosses this line.

So should the studios just roll over and close their doors? I have some suggestions for them:

• Find a new pricing model. There's an iTunes for movies out there somewhere.

• Fuggetaboutit. It's true that lots of people download movies off the Internet or buy bootleg copies, but how many adults will sit in front of a computer screen and watch a pixilated movie or be content to watch a DVD where someone's head keeps blocking the camera every few minutes? The kids who download movies off the Net can't afford to buy a real copy anyway. Stopping them from downloading and watching a movie doesn't translate into an extra sale.

• Go through the motions. Build a minimal DRM, enough to deter people from casual copying. Then, grit your teeth and bear it.

CHOOSING CHOICE. Part of the profit on movies comes from secondary-channel sales. The days when the studios made all of their money from the box office are long over. Now, they show movies on cable, on pay-per-view, in hotels, and on airplanes. There are too many places for the content to get out. The more the studios widen their channels to distribute their product, the more opportunities there will be for someone to steal a copy. Plus, the move to digital distribution of movies in theaters means that there's a much better chance of someone snarfing a nice, clean, digital copy.

What should consumers do? Well, I'm a gadget freak but I'm not going to rush out and buy one of the first players available. When I do, given a choice between Blu-ray and a less-restrictive DRM format, I'll go with the latter, all other things being equal. As to the DRM stuff, if you need to copy a DVD for a legitimate purpose and the protection scheme won't let you and someone posts a hack on the Net, well...you have a choice to make.

[an error occurred while processing this directive]

2412.3.2007 2:53

Originally posted by Nephilim:
I'm still trying to wrap my head around why people care sooooo much about something as stupid as a format. Paintings, sculpture, music, film and people are things to get passionate about but here we have folks getting maniacal and nasty about unimportant little plastic discs. Unbelieveable.
Neph: I see where you're coming from. If you look around though, especially at avsforums, you'll see that these HD format supporters are a different breed. They're passionate not just for their little plastic discs. They're also passionate about their high-def, mostly high end, audio/video equipment. Some people have their art, paintings and sculptures. Others have their plasmas, surround processors and 7.1 speakers. They're passionate about HD formats because those little plastics discs are able to bring out the best from their A/V equipment more than any other source.

Like I said the war over there is 100 times bloodier than what's over here. I'm format neutral so I just sit back and watch the fireworks.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 12 Mar 2007 @ 3:54

2512.3.2007 4:13
BobbyBlu
Inactive

Originally posted by Nephilim:
I'm still trying to wrap my head around why people care sooooo much about something as stupid as a format. Paintings, sculpture, music, film and people are things to get passionate about but here we have folks getting maniacal and nasty about unimportant little plastic discs. Unbelieveable.
Neph: you see it that way but its all about people views.I pretty sure that you may have a hobbies or passion for something that someone my see it as nothing to get excited about.My passion is electronic its also one of my job fields.I think the problem that we have on these forums is people are so blind & don't respect people opinion.Some people take things to personal these company is into this to make money first.I think people arguing about copy protection is dumb but thats my view company's have the right to protect what they own weather it DRM or anything else.

2612.3.2007 4:42
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by bobbyblu:
Thats 7000 more copies so you think thats small
- When the SD DVD equivalent sold in millions? Yes it is.

Both formats = 0.5% of the whole market.
So it is a case of you trying to make 'mountains out of molehills.

The truth is it hasn't even really got going yet, it's all so early & small that you just can't credibly make the kind of sweeping exaggerated claims you clearly would love to.

But of course, you just can't (and probably never will) 'get' this wider and overall comparison at all, will you?

Never-mind, you toddle along and play your exaggerated percentage and ratio propaganda games
(and remember to try and never reveal the real and actual tiny numbers at the heart of what is being discussed).

Originally posted by bobbyblu:
OMG
- OMG?! Are you for real?

Do you always talk like an over-excited and very young American school-girl?

Originally posted by bobbyblu:
That is so true a rabid fan is a rabid fan no matter how much the truth is exposed to them. They just wont accept the truth no matter what.
- Well that's it, competition over.

The '2007 brass-necked hypocrite of the year' award goes too.....

Originally posted by bobbyblu:
I think people arguing about copy protection is dumb but thats my view......... company's have the right to protect what they own weather it DRM or anything else.
- Well what a surprise, not.
Busted.......and some people just thought I was being a bit mean using the term 'shill'.
I wonder if 'corporate biatch' would be any better? :lol:

The 'problem' in this 'debate' is the sheer amount of exaggeration, propaganda and half-truth
(and it is honestly my view that it is mainly coming from one side in this)
whether or not some people are willfully blind to this is does not alter the fact of that being the reality of the situation.

When it's really all about exploiting & kidding people out of their money as well as about promoting to establish additional long-term anti-competitive control(s) over the consumer and the market (DRM) then I think it should be challenged at every point.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 12 Mar 2007 @ 12:37

2712.3.2007 5:39

I love this war. It will only bring prices down.

I'm still waiting for the results of the 8 track/cassette and Beta/VHS wars.

Long live President Dewey.

2812.3.2007 5:43
ChocTunda
Inactive

Quote:
The '2007 brass-necked hypocrite of the year' award goes too.....

Originally posted by bobbyblu:I think people arguing about copy protection is dumb but thats my view......... company's have the right to protect what they own weather it DRM or anything else.

- Well what a surprise, not.
Busted.......and some people just thought I was being a bit mean using the term 'shill'.
'Corporate biatch' any better? :lol:
Dude that was totally uncalled for i sometime disagree what both of you but to launch a personal attack was low.He just said R.E.S.P.E.C.T. if you like or dislike someone view don't launch personal attacks.

2912.3.2007 6:35
hughjars
Inactive

Dude (or should I say brand new account to back up you know who) that wasn't a 'personal attack'.

It was just -

1) pointing out blatant hypocrisy and

2) noting the specific backing for a certain section of 'the industry's' DRM plans (which had previously been implied but never outright supported before).

I wonder what 'fair use' means to this guy.......anything the industry says?

But silly me, why on earth would I find that kind of comment even worth discussing in this?

3012.3.2007 6:58
ChocTunda
Inactive

New account(Jr.Member ???) i think not check the date it was started...You are really out of line tread reported your the reason flame war get started.

Quote:
Dude (or should I say brand new account to back up you know who) that wasn't a 'personal attack'.

It was just
Dissing some one is not just my friend its a lack of respect you need to check yourself.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 12 Mar 2007 @ 7:02

3112.3.2007 8:44
hughjars
Inactive

Quote:
your the reason flame war get started.
- Actually I haven't started any "flame war" here ever (unlike some) and I'm not engaging in one either (despite your trying to talk one up).

You might not like the truth of what I'm saying but it is pretty clear none the less.

Combined peak week high def movie disc sales of 33,000 out of a total market number that came to millions is pifflingly tiny.

Quote:
Dissing some one is not just my friend its a lack of respect you need to check yourself.
- Maybe English isn't your first language cos I'm having trouble working out what you're saying there.

I commented on facts of the matter and what has been & what is being said.

Not the person, actually.

You can try to 'bait' away all you like but I will not even bother with that cr@p.

It is rather interesting though that you weren't so keen to go climbing on your high horse and had absolutely nothing to say about posters slamming other people with a different POV at the beginning of this thread as "retarded".
Where were your outraged public comments and "report" then, huh?

Maybe this "R.E.S.P.E.C.T." is something your only get bugged about when it comes to a certain POV and your chum here?....

.....but because I dared to make comment (without actually naming and calling anyone anything, actually)
pointing out the laughable creeping around the mod after spending many months spewing out such clearly one-sided propaganda & the tragic hypocrisy of those comments about people here with a blinkered & one-sided view in this thread
along with fair critical comment about the outright 'support' for the industry's plans to extend DRM to a far greater degree than exists now (or in the HD-DVD 'system')
then
(as far as you're concerned) it's all of a sudden the worst thing in the world and you just can't wait to 'report' it!?

Cos you'd have us all believe it's all just about 'respect', isn't it?
*roflma*

Strange priorities.

But I guess if you can't actually debate the substance & the real issue at hand.......?

Still, if all else fails perhaps you could just try and remove that spikey long rod from out of your 'you know what' and relaxing just a little.
Maybe a less dramatic sense of perspective (or even, dare I say it, something approaching a sense of humour) might help a little, huh?
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 12 Mar 2007 @ 12:41

3212.3.2007 9:45

Quote:
I pretty sure that you may have a hobbies or passion for something that someone my see it as nothing to get excited about.
I imagine just about everyone does and I myself have many things that I'm extremely passionate about but I keep them in perspective with "The Big Picture", or as many know it - life in general ;)

3312.3.2007 14:40

hughjars,

I just had time to read your two long posts and stuff like this just does not fly,

Quote:
Do you always talk like an over-excited and very young American school-girl?
That is a demeaning personal comment that has no other value or meaning other than to belittle someone. I'ver never had a problem with you buddy but that wasn't cool.

I'd hoped after the example I set with jetyi83 that you people would have the sense to leave personal comments out of this but sadly I was wrong. I'm not kidding people. If you can't make a case for your views without getting personal you have two choices - either pass by this thread or likely get suspended.



My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33

Comments have been disabled for this article.

News archive