PS3's complicated platform is discouraging second-tier game developers

ouch for the ps3

keep it simple and they will build it.

And here comes the xbox fans coming to bash ps3.

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The developers also made some interesting points. Although the PS3 might have stronger hardware functionality than the Xbox 360 many users do not see better video quality while playing the same game on both systems.

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actually those would be ports which are not centered around the ps3's strengths but more than likely the 360s. ports are always a little vanilla in this category IMO. not to mention that for ALL devs this is their first time around at creating games for the ps3. the 360 does have a year under its belt which surely can contribute to this.

nothing too surprising hear other than with the inclusion of Blu-ray we should be seeing longer or more fully featured multi-plat games on the ps3, which we really aren't.

im actually curious what titles are on these devs resumes that spoke out. i don't see this as a loss for sony or the ps3, but actually missed opportunities for others. sony is actually upthere with the likes of ubisoft and ea.

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the report places Sony as the third most resourced games software publisher in the world, stating that “Sony Computer Entertainment Studios employs some 2,200 developers across 14 different studios… it has more programmers, artists, audio technicians and designers than Microsoft and Nintendo combined.”

Ubisoft, with a ‘technical workforce’ of 2,400 sits in second place, while Electronic Arts with 5,500 comes in first.

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Originally posted by azndrake:

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And here comes the xbox fans coming to bash ps3.

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There nothing here for them to bash because this is old news dating all the way back to PS2 emotion engine.Dev's cried about that system but that didn't stop then from making games.The reason most Dev's are having a hard time because i hear alot of them are trying to use PS2 engine to start there building ground for a game on PS3 i'm glad they can't do this all Sony asking them to do is be creative & have your own idea's how hard is that.

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Originally posted by azndrake:

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And here comes the xbox fans coming to bash ps3.

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There nothing here for them to bash because this is old news dating all the way back to PS2 emotion engine.Dev's cried about that system but that didn't stop then from making games.The reason most Dev's are having a hard time because i hear alot of them are trying to use PS2 engine to start there building ground for a game on PS3 i'm glad they can't do this all Sony asking them to do is be creative & have your own idea's how hard is that.

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You have no clue what your talking about. It's Sony's duty to make something that's at least developer friendly...now come on!!! Being stuborn and saying things like "if you don't know how to develop for our system then your stupid" is just plain silly(and not a good strategy if your looking to have good games on your console). Which side of the boat would you want to be on? 1. Make something that's very powerfull and NOT developer friendly OR 2. Make something that's powerfull and developer friendly. Keep in mind this cost developers TIME AND MONEY. Also, stop making excuses saying the PS3 hasn't been out that long, as we all know developers recieve dev kits that they use wayyyyyyy before a console is launched into retail. Why do you think we play launch games when the console comes out? Clearly they've been in development for some time. I think Microsoft was very smart and made a very powerfull system that was "developer friendly" besides having a stuborn Sony attitude.

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Originally posted by azndrake:

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And here comes the xbox fans coming to bash ps3.

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There nothing here for them to bash because this is old news dating all the way back to PS2 emotion engine.Dev's cried about that system but that didn't stop then from making games.The reason most Dev's are having a hard time because i hear alot of them are trying to use PS2 engine to start there building ground for a game on PS3 i'm glad they can't do this all Sony asking them to do is be creative & have your own idea's how hard is that.

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Originally posted by fgamer:

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You have no clue what your talking about. It's Sony's duty to make something that's at least developer friendly...now come on!!! Being stuborn and saying things like "if you don't know how to develop for our system then your stupid" is just plain silly(and not a good strategy if your looking to have good games on your console). Which side of the boat would you want to be on? 1. Make something that's very powerfull and NOT developer friendly OR 2. Make something that's powerfull and developer friendly. Keep in mind this cost developers TIME AND MONEY. Also, stop making excuses saying the PS3 hasn't been out that long, as we all know developers recieve dev kits that they use wayyyyyyy before a console is launched into retail. Why do you think we play launch games when the console comes out? Clearly they've been in development for some time. I think Microsoft was very smart and made a very powerfull system that was "developer friendly" besides having a stuborn Sony attitude.

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You Get a clue because you so far in left field....Developer Friendly...lmao So that give them the excuse to run 360 game on the same engine as the last gen...please.That the only reason 360 game are so easy for Dev's to program.Dev's are cry baby's all this does is give Dev's room to be lazy & have no new idea's.Sony done this in there pass like i said before this don't stop Dev's from making games & Sony have the highest selling console ever so dispute that !

Originally posted by fgamer:

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developer friendly

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Please tell me if a system is developer friendly it equal Good games???????

BB

Oh I'll dispute the PS3 is on shaky ground and might not be the next PS2...but of coarse fanboys don't like realism.

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The PS3 is a bitch to code for I think everyone already knew that,dev kits are not easily given out and I wonder if that would double the damage to the 2nd and 3rd parties devs that made the PS2 what it was,without games the PS3 is pointless and IT IS UP TO SONY to get devs making games for their consoles,if they continue the arrogance shtick they will be the new N64.

I wonder, do console makers consult with developers before designing the console. You would think they would want to make the environment as developer friendly as possible.

Originally posted by ChiknLitl:

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I wonder, do console makers consult with developers before designing the console. You would think they would want to make the environment as developer friendly as possible.

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thats what dev kits are for,and I would think only the larger devs get pre launch kits.

what $ony has forgotten it was 2nd and 3rd party that made the PSX and PS2,all this adds up to hurt the PS3 more,but then again gaming has gone "hollywood" cheap shallow content to thos that will buy it without question over good content that everyone will want a piece of.

Originally posted by Zippy:

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Oh I'll dispute the PS3 is on shaky ground and might not be the next PS2...but of coarse fanboys don't like realism.

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Look this is not a issue at all it don't matter this does not stop Dev's from making game's at all do it? These are 2nd & 3rd party crying because they got to use there brain for once in there lives.If you going to make money how about being creative & not give gamer the same BS some game Dev's be cashing in off us for years.With all the 2nd & 3rd party moving going on this make it even less off a issue.Sony or any other company can't cater to everyone need's.I'm going to play me some Motostorm.

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Originally posted by Zippy:

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Oh I'll dispute the PS3 is on shaky ground and might not be the next PS2...but of coarse fanboys don't like realism.

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Look this is not a issue at all it don't matter this does not stop Dev's from making game's at all do it? These are 2nd & 3rd party crying because they got to use there brain for once in there lives.If you going to make money how about being creative & not give gamer the same BS some game Dev's be cashing in off us for years.With all the 2nd & 3rd party moving going on this make it even less off a issue.Sony or any other company can't cater to everyone need's.I'm going to play me some Motostorm.

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Yes it dose it slows the release of games to a system that badly needs them and it has made some games jump ship altogether its a issue tied with other things that has damaged the PS3.
Unless you forget it was a smoother transition from the PSX to the PS2,Sony did acaulty try a bit harder to get dev support now adays things are different gaming is different and the sloppiness on M$ and $onys part shows it.

of course they consult some of the third party dev's, look at how closely NAMCO games come out right after or at the system launch.
i have this friend who used to design hardware for comp systems, he couldn't install windows for crap, but ask him h/w q's and he'd be a wiz. once the hardware is done they leave it to the coders to frame out a system library of tools, and the programmers use the tools to create the games we know and love.
oh yeah, the xbox has an easier time with programming because the h/w is very familiar to the comp's, but now that we are going to multi-core (and the biz servers are up to 8 or 16 now), how many games or programs are really designed to use them efficiently?
none yet, but soon, so when you get a ported game, it was only ported because of us, wanting them to get more games out quickly before a bankable franchise gets old. example tekken dark ressurection.
so being the first out has a plus, and a minus, right now there seems to be a pending shortage of multi-core programmers, so complainers study up and quit whining!
p.s. i had the neon green psx in san diego the mags freaked out about, all those years ago.

Not a fan boy of either side... i own 360 now, and PS3 coming for my birthday in like 3 weeks (can't wait)


It's a new technology, and clearly the Devs just need to learn how to build on this platform...

once they do... watch out cause then that is when ps3 will really shine.

if they can't really unlock the beast with the coding there doing now but still making the graphics almost identical to the 360 (in my opinion having played both first hand)... just wait until they actually figure out how to properly code for this monstrous system.

that will be the day to look forward to.

no sense on arguing which is better. everything has pro's and con's.

i played madden for both systems and the ps3 is far better.. mlb 2k7 is a tad better on the 360, the game is just a little brighter in certain areas. other then that most of the games i've played so far are almost = in graphics.

I had to return my xbox once so far, cause of the widely known heating issue and since then the damn cd-rom drive sounds like it's eating my discs and what not.. also getting alot of hangs and cdrom not properly reading my discs...

i hope this won't happen with the ps3.

Anyone ever develop for the original Xbox? All of the code runs just like windows, with .wmv video files, .wav sound, etc, .xbe executables. And guess what? The devs were all over that one too, saying it was easier than PS2. Jump for to the next generation, and its the same story. Sony has a complicated CPU and memory scheme, and the 360 is basically a PC (well, a MAC if you saw the dev kits.) This is the same reason the N64 got trounced, not to mention it was cartridge based. Why do you think it's so hard to emulate these systems? Plus, look at XNA. Sony tried this same thing with the PS2 and indy devs couldn't even get a grasp on it. That's why we never saw that kit in the US.

Glad I went with the xbox!

these 2nd and 3rd tier makers should spend some $$$ b/c its simple if you invest some $$$ in the game you make alot more $$$$$$ it simple R.O.R (rate of return)

i will try to find and post links from this years GDC, dev tools available, along with several quotes from 3rd party and 1st party devs about the ease and challanges of the ps3.

i honestly don't think this is as bad as people are making it. i do think that 2nd tier companies as the term used here, really are in the hole when it comes to this and have a difficult task at trying to do something for the ps3. its expensive and timeconsuming yes, but certainly not impossible.

for those interested i believe its been posted that Resitance: Fall of Man has now sold around 1 million copies making it the first real blockbuster for the ps3. so its not impossible but hey, big rewards = big risks. you'll miss every shot you don't take, devs generally look for the easy way out and shortcuts, but the more successfull companies and individuals do find ways of overcoming obstacles.

do i smell another saga dreamcast here or what.if the second and third party is having a problem with this great machine.then its all over people are not going to keep waiting for cool games to out on the ps3 when the 360 got really cool games coming out way faster.and please enough with the launch excuse this thing has been out for almost.6months ok give it a rest.not a 360 fanboy at all just saying what is so clearly true.

Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:

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BB

Oh I'll dispute the PS3 is on shaky ground and might not be the next PS2...but of coarse fanboys don't like realism.

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The PS3 is a bitch to code for I think everyone already knew that,dev kits are not easily given out and I wonder if that would double the damage to the 2nd and 3rd parties devs that made the PS2 what it was,without games the PS3 is pointless and IT IS UP TO SONY to get devs making games for their consoles,if they continue the arrogance shtick they will be the new N64.

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Zippy please refrain from comparing the N64 which was great to the ps3 which is shit.

the N64 is a RARE machine(figure that one out plutonash, if you know)

and i dont wanna go wii but IBM is manufacturing both core designs for wii and ps3, if i am mistaken i apologize. i was a fan of nintendo once, i think they donkey kong'ed every system out at the time, even almost licensed it out before famitsu lived! notice i didnt say "ported" as each version was uniquely different, due to each consoles programming limits.

for you guys bashing the DEVS... You people are forgetting the nicer the game looks the more they pay to make the game! Wasn't the original Mortal Kombat made by like 12 guys and now the team is that of around 50 plus. With each one of them making or close to a 6 figure paycheck... Yeah things get expensive really fast. Haven't you wondered why the 360 and PS3 games cost $10 more now? Simple = easier to make = fast DEV time = cheaper overhead = gamers profit from a technically sound game for a cheaper price. I love all systems, but damn am I loving my Wii. yeah so my eyes don't bleed because the graphics aren't top notch! yah know what, I'm having fun while playing and laughing with friends when we play multiplayer games. Whens the last time you sat around playing a game and let out a loud laugh instead of a F*&K YOU!!, YOUR GONNA DIE, BASTERED, *insert XBOX LIVE trash talk*.
Simple is good
PS3 is just uber expensive all around and for that $ony will suffer.

PS3 hard to develop for? No says Sigma dev
for those who don't know about sigma, here is ign's preview page for the game.
preview
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For us it's not a question of being easily to develop for, that's a relative term. When we first got our hands on the hardware it took us a while to get back into the flow of working with Sony, because they way they do things is a little different.

The developers that say it's too hard to develop for and complain about it are missing the point. It sounds like an excuse to the consumer to us.“

There are a lot of people out there that bought the PS3, and it's not a question of whether it's easy or hard. If your going to do a project you have to do the best you can. It's like if you bought a CD and it sounded bad and the singer said it was because the studio and the engineer were no good.

Ultimately it's up to that person to make sure they have the quality that's needed. Look at what were able to do and the quality we are able to achieve and that speaks for it self. I think people will be satisfied with what we were able to do. If we can do it then other people will be able to do it as well.

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Insomniac Games Chief Creative Officer Brian Hastings discusses why the PS3 is the console to beat

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With the PS2, Sony got away with making a fairly developer-unfriendly system, and its success allowed their hardware designers to ignore developer’s complaints as they made the PS3. People high up at Sony have realized that approach simply won’t work anymore and are trying to fix the problem. Sony is actively improving their libraries, tools and developer support in order to make PS3 development easier. They are giving first party developed techniques and code to third-party developers so that multi-platform games should start looking better on PS3.

Games developed from the ground up on PS3 are the ones that will really show off the PS3’s CPU advantage. The complexity of the distributed processing architecture means that PS3 engines won’t fully blossom until a little later in the lifecycle than the PS2. This has put the PS3 at a disadvantage early in its lifecycle, but within two years you will see games that surpass what is possible on the Xbox 360.

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here is some more from the past GDC

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Sony set out and explained what works and what doesn’t for SPUs, both for performance and for efficiency. They discussed different methods for threading and dividing up work on the SPUs, and ways to efficiently pass data between SPUs.

Of particular interest however was the bit Sony Computer Entertainment Worldwide (SCEWW) said about branching AI on the SPU. Branching is a common technique used in artificial intelligence where a program randomly chooses a few samples from a larger set of options, and then tests each to see which is the best. This method of AI can provide more realistic behavior, as humans often don’t choose the overall best option because it simply doesn’t occur to them, however it is very inefficient to begin with, and due to the nature of the type of process it is, most developers have claimed that the SPUs would be absolutely terrible for branching.

As Sony put it however, branching is absolutely terrible for ALL processors. In their experience, they said, it is less terrible for the SPUs however. In the upcoming game Heavenly Sword, they said that moving the branching AI off of the Power Processor Unit (PPU) increased the performance of that particular process. In other words, the same branching ran better on the SPUs.

Microsoft and Xbox fans have long claimed that the triple-core PPC setup which the 360 enjoys is far superior for AI, however it appears that Sony’s internal developers have had better success with the code on SPUs. Now that Sony is working with other developers to enable them to do the same methods of development, we can expect that developing and adapting current algorithms to the Cell will become much more manageable for many developers.

Sony said that much of their success with the Cell has come from the development of a tool they call the SPURS Kernel, a small program which sits on each SPU and enables it to better perform the tasks that programmers use it for. This SPURS Kernel was included in the EDGE suite of tools, and we can expect that many of the developers who have been complaining of harsh learning curves, long development cycles and poor performance will soon be breathing a collective sigh of relief.

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and some more for people to read

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While Sony may be offering its services regarding issues involving their Cell microprocessor, some developers would rather go elsewhere. According to a report from Next-Gen, High Moon Studios, the team behind the PS2 game Darkwatch, has begun collaborating with IBM engineers to unlock the secrets of the Cell, the tiny, but powerful chip that makes every PS3 run.

Although the Cell processor was a joint collaboration on the part of Sony, Toshiba, and IBM, Sony had very little to do with the creation of the chip, says High Moon Chief Technical Officer Clinton Keith.

"We've been talking to Sony for almost two years now, but they didn't create the Cell," Keith claims. "They created the architecture for the PS3 and they've created a lot of the developer libraries. We've had access to those [Sony] engineers... but they're not the hardware engineers. We want to hit [the Cell] on all fronts. We're talking to the guys [IBM] who designed this chip and have been working on it for five years now."

As a result, High Moon has invited IBM engineers and a handful of other Vivendi Games studios, such as Swordfish and Radical Entertainment, to a workshop that aims to teach developers how to effectively harness the power of the Cell. The workshop will take place this week at High Moon's offices in Carlsbad, California.

High Moon hopes to use the information gathered at the workshop towards creating an as-of-yet unannounced PS3 project. The development studio is also currently working on an unnanounced Xbox 360 game as well, according to Keith.

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take all this how you like, but to say sony isn't helping, contributing, or that the system is just too expensive or hard to dev for is just foolish. the quote of the day in my book:
If we can do it then other people will be able to do it as well.

HADE

Thank you Case Closed !

You are wrong hade,

This topic is about second-tier devs, which basically mean they are a very small company. What they are stating is the barrier to get into developing games for the ps3 is too hard because it would cost them more $$$$ to get pass the barrier. It has nothing to do with them being unable do it, but instead the cost would be way too much for newbie’s to develop a new game from scratch. Since now and days GREAT games need to go muti-platform in order to make a profit like DMC4. If you see the interview at gametrailers.com about them interviewing Al Hasting from Insomniac Games.

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The second-tier developers, including those in Taiwan, do not have the financial or technological capabilities that international developers do and therefore cannot pass the technological barriers that the PS3 platform imposes.

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These are people that just came out of high school / college and want to make something BIG either with 2-3 friends or by themselves. They do not have near the financial backing like what Insomniac has. Their budget is around 1k-20k which isn't enough to do jack.

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These are people that just came out of high school / college and want to make something BIG either with 2-3 friends or by themselves. They do not have near the financial backing like what Insomniac has. Their budget is around 1k-20k which isn't enough to do jack

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i hope your not being serious here. did you READ what i have posted above in here as i basically already covered this.

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im actually curious what titles are on these devs resumes that spoke out. i don't see this as a loss for sony or the ps3, but actually missed opportunities for others.

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think about the scenario, people generally have to prove themselves before being handed things on a silver platter. this is a business world we live in, i mean do you honestly think any old bank is going to give some goon off the street a 50,000 dollar loan who has absolutely no credit history(basically one's resume), income, assets etc? so why in the hell would it be sony's responsibility according to your example to give unproven devs money, resources, tools the whole nine? for some reason and call me crazy i just don't think it works that way.

not to mention that i already stated this above as well:

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i do think that 2nd tier companies as the term used here, really are in the hole when it comes to this and have a difficult task at trying to do something for the ps3. its expensive and timeconsuming yes, but certainly not impossible.

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im not arguing whether or not its feasible for every company to work on the ps3, but merely the fact that so many are too quick to jump on things before reading into it the situation and again somehow that translates into yet another sony downfall??? im not convinced

my advice to anyone in the business starting out or to those who you feel make up second tier companies would be to simply concentrate on making a name for yourself or company. working with larger developers is a start, or even developing mini arcade games as i personally think that is the next big market for gaming. surely a company could start out invest and make a living on creating arcade like games to users and could surely establish a name in the market. cell phone games would be in the same category too.

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Since now and days GREAT games need to go muti-platform in order to make a profit like DMC4.

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actually my personal opinion on the subject is that with the success from DeadRising and LostPlanet(i think they are both capcom) Capcom saw an opportunity with the 360 as another large market for their games that i don't think they really looked into with the original xbox. i do believe that if the ps3 already had roughly an installed userbase of around 10 million that the game probably wouldn't make its way to being multi-plat.

either or the game comes out for both, the ps3 and sony don't LOSE anything here as we will still get and enjoy the series just like we have been able to for years now. the only criticism i have from all this, is if in fact it is true with the rise in developmental costs why haven't the games mentioned above made their way to the ps3 or atleast been announced. possibly again the expense to cost ratio isn't quite in the their favor and maybe we'll see sequels to said titles in the future once the ps3 has what they would consider to be a large enough userbase.

Resistance only sold that many copies because people were FORCED to buy that title...I mean, spend $600 on a console, ya gotta get a game right? And Resistance is the only thing around that's even close to being a good game for $ony's machine. I know that's why I bought it...there was nothing else to buy.

And now with these issues of developers going console jumping, who cares...if ya got the flow to buy all the consoles...then you shouldn't have anything to worry about when a good game comes out right?

Save your lunch money kids, it cuts down on the whining...

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Resistance only sold that many copies because people were FORCED to buy that title

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i can honestly say there is always some form of entertainment on the forums. "forced" to buy a game, that is a new one

As for the SIGMA company (what ever) stating other companies are just complaining... BLAH! It's all PR!!! Of course they're going to talk them selves up!
Hades and his comparison to a singer blaming the studio... Doesn't matter how well the artist can sing. If the studio does a horrible mixing job and the producer uses horrible music/sound who the hell is going to listen to the track??? Everyone has something to do in the big picture of it all. Small companies probably get little to no assistance from $ony all the while the big ones they want to keep close will get privy access to tools, tips, and special testing units. I remember long ago $ony had some kind of waiting list to get games in DEV to run on their performance messuring system or what ever it was.

Your first statement:

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i do think that 2nd tier companies as the term used here, really are in the hole when it comes to this and have a difficult task at trying to do something for the ps3.

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Your second statement:

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PS3 hard to develop for? No says Sigma dev
for those who don't know about sigma, here is ign's preview page for the game.
preview
images
[quote]For us it's not a question of being easily to develop for, that's a relative term. When we first got our hands on the hardware it took us a while to get back into the flow of working with Sony, because they way they do things is a little different.

The developers that say it's too hard to develop for and complain about it are missing the point. It sounds like an excuse to the consumer to us.“

There are a lot of people out there that bought the PS3, and it's not a question of whether it's easy or hard. If your going to do a project you have to do the best you can. It's like if you bought a CD and it sounded bad and the singer said it was because the studio and the engineer were no good.

Ultimately it's up to that person to make sure they have the quality that's needed. Look at what were able to do and the quality we are able to achieve and that speaks for it self. I think people will be satisfied with what we were able to do. If we can do it then other people will be able to do it as well.

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Hade,

I must admit I did not see your previous thread and the only reason this thread catch my eye was because of the red text you used. Anyways, from your thread you seem to be implying that tier-two devs have the ability to develop the same quality of games as tier-one devs. But in your previous thread you stated that they were unable to produce the same quality as the big shots? What exactly are you trying to prove that tier-two devs are able to produce hits on the ps3 or not?

Hade:

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either or the game comes out for both, the ps3 and sony don't LOSE anything here as we will still get and enjoy the series just like we have been able to for years now

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I am unsure what you are trying to state, that Sony won’t be hurt by losing exclusives or we customers won’t be hurt by games going muti-platform.

PS: the 3 min wait b4 another post is irritating, how many post b4 i become a junior member?

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[quote][quote]Resistance only sold that many copies because people were FORCED to buy that title

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i can honestly say there is always some form of entertainment on the forums. "forced" to buy a game, that is a new one[/quote][quote]

I'm glad someone is enjoying this...

The PS3 is barely 6 months old. RELAX.......
Sony got a bad start. It will pass and all these problems will soon go away. Everybody expects everything to be perfect right out of the gate. It didn't work that way for the 360 and it isn't going to work that way for the PS3. It's over a year and a half later and Microsoft is still fixing the 360. What do you think the 360 Elite version is for? It is a fix. A very expensive fix but still a fix for the original 360's short comings. I don’t see anybody bitching about the $479 they are about to spend for the Elite 360 fix.
The Developers will get it together….This might just force them to make games for the PS3 instead of making games for the 360 and just copying them to the PS3. Yes it sucks but it will pass just as things did for Microsoft. RELAX…..

azndrake,

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Anyways, from your thread you seem to be implying that tier-two devs have the ability to develop the same quality of games as tier-one devs. But in your previous thread you stated that they were unable to produce the same quality as the big shots?

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im not implying anything here other than pointing out that its ironic that people say the system is too complicated while others WORKING on titles say otherwise. the quotes i posted are not my words but those of devs and for the most part they contradict most of what this article is about. i also never "stated" anything like you seem to think.
this is what i put earlier:
"its expensive and timeconsuming yes, but certainly not impossible."

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I am unsure what you are trying to state, that Sony won’t be hurt by losing exclusives or we customers won’t be hurt by games going muti-platform.

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actually it could very well be both. how would it hurt me or anyone else for that matter if a game goes multi-plat? most gamers out there don't buy consoles for just one game anyhow. as long as the title still comes to the ps3 i really don't see how it could "hurt" sony. here is some more info about sony and with sales of both the psx/ps2 surpassing 100million, the playstation brand has already been established and 3rd party exclussives aren't what they used to be.

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As reported by Screen Digest in late February, Sony's internal studios have more than 2.5 times the manpower of Microsoft's studios. In fact, Sony has more studio staff than Nintendo and Microsoft combined. If cross-platform exclusives are taken for granted, then Sony is in a far stronger position than Microsoft to define its platform with unique software. Killzone 2, Warhawk, Uncharted: Drake's Fortune

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GearsOfWar isn't even a first party game for m$. they need 3rd party devs as much as the devs need them. the original xbox was a system that when compared to the ps2 in terms of sales failed miserably. m$ is still trying to prove themselves and create that "playstation" like brand. the way they launched the 360 with the reported problems, lackluster titles for nearly 10 months before the systems first real hit (deadRising), im not sure they are on the right path yet. massEffect looks interesting but in terms of having a diverse library of games, ummm massEffect/bioShock/lostPlanet/halo/Gears all seem to carry a similar tune.....

finally, harrisons take on gtaIV. logical, interesting, and i don't think this is killing sony any. now the genius on the other side of the fence who made some bold announcement about GTA IV including some dumb tattoo, well i won't say anymore. im sure you know the story.

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As for losing GTA IV, Harrison said that the PlayStation 3 was not suitable to be the exclusive home of Rockstar's upcoming title. "I don't think PS3 has the install base to support Rockstar's investment in GTA IV on its own," Harrison told the assembled bloggers. The first next-gen Grand Theft Auto game likely cost Rockstar considerable money and development time. That being such, it couldn't have sold enough copies on PS3 alone to make exclusivity worthwhile. In the future, as the number of PS3s in homes grows, it should become easier to nab major exclusives

---

Thanks for the reply hade,
Your post just clarified all the misunderstanding I had about your previous posts. Basically you have the same point of view that I have that it is "nearly impossible" (miracle) for second-tier devs to produce game equal in quality as the big shots.

Hade:

Quote:

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i do think that 2nd tier companies as the term used here,really are in the hole when it comes to this and have a difficult task at trying to do something for the ps3. its expensive and timeconsuming yes, but certainly not impossible.

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Also we both agree that Sony will lose a lot more exclusives if the install-base doesn’t increase exceptionally (from your article).

Quote:

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As for losing GTA IV, Harrison said that the PlayStation 3 was not suitable to be the exclusive home of Rockstar's upcoming title. "I don't think PS3 has the install base to support Rockstar's investment in GTA IV on its own," Harrison told the assembled bloggers. The first next-gen Grand Theft Auto game likely cost Rockstar considerable money and development time. That being such, it couldn't have sold enough copies on PS3 alone to make exclusivity worthwhile. In the future, as the number of PS3s in homes grows, it should become easier to nab major exclusives

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Hade

Quote:

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im not implying anything here other than pointing out that its ironic that people say the system is too complicated while others WORKING on titles say otherwise. the quotes i posted are not my words but those of devs and for the most part they contradict most of what this article is about. i also never "stated" anything like you seem to think.
this is what i put earlier:
"its expensive and timeconsuming yes, but certainly not impossible."

---

Depending on the dev is could be impossible,don't forget that the PS2 built its empire on 2nd and 3rd tier games,Its going be interesting to see what happens in the next 3 years what devs will do because getting things working on the PS3 is going to be costly and some might decide to switch series to a different console.

Quote:

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actually it could very well be both. how would it hurt me or anyone else for that matter if a game goes multi-plat? most gamers out there don't buy consoles for just one game anyhow. as long as the title still comes to the ps3 i really don't see how it could "hurt" sony. here is some more info about sony and with sales of both the psx/ps2 surpassing 100million, the playstation brand has already been established and 3rd party exclussives aren't what they used to be.

---

True exclusives aren't what they used to be hell gaming is not what it used to be,things revolve almost to much around graphics prices go up to keep up and that raises the games price......the reason the PSX and PS2 became a hit was all the better 2nd and 3rd tier devs the exclusives helped complete its line up without everyone making games for it thigns might not have fell into place,the N64 help to a cart based system what where they thinking!

Quote:

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GearsOfWar isn't even a first party game for m$. they need 3rd party devs as much as the devs need them. the original xbox was a system that when compared to the ps2 in terms of sales failed miserably. m$ is still trying to prove themselves and create that "playstation" like brand. the way they launched the 360 with the reported problems, lackluster titles for nearly 10 months before the systems first real hit (deadRising), im not sure they are on the right path yet. massEffect looks interesting but in terms of having a diverse library of games, ummm massEffect/bioShock/lostPlanet/halo/Gears all seem to carry a similar tune.....

finally, harrisons take on gtaIV. logical, interesting, and i don't think this is killing sony any. now the genius on the other side of the fence who made some bold announcement about GTA IV including some dumb tattoo, well i won't say anymore. im sure you know the story.

---

The Xbox was a emerging US system based around power and stealing PC titles to make into exclusives that did well for them they have a large niche and in all things considered did as well or better than the GC,the 360 is contenuining its legacy sloppily (same can be said of the PS3) the 360 is gettign some RPGs and other games its improving slowly...like the hardware..*L*

M$ has made so many mistakes yet is still clunking along
$onys trying to much and not paying enough attention to the details
WII is fun and shows promise but there are signs of main stream gaming corruption(lack of polish,lack of control,lack of real innovation within the games themselfs)

The old saying rings true the more different they are the more they are the same.
I will "let up" on Sony when prices fall and the console and games can prove them selfs,I could let up on M$ if they drop the price of LIVE or better yet make it free,the WII is good enough for the price.

===========
I think harrisons right GTA 4 is a huge investment for them launching it effectively on PC and all the consoles that can handle it will be better for the game and the dev.

ZIppyDSM,

The point you are trying to get through Hade is that basically the ps3 can not win without 3rd party titles, since it was the factor that destroyed the n64/gamecube. Also it is impossible for second rated devs to create a AAA game, which means that ps3 will die if they do not make a more dev friendly tool(even more improved dev tools than the GDC edge). Also that ps3 must have a larger user-base to attract more devs to make games for this ps3 that has a limitless amount of potential. This proves my point that the ps3 needs to get its act together fast before Xbox strikes again (halo3).

PS: Also ZIppyDSM is implying that he is not a fanboy (mod contender) by stating that every console got its strengths and weakness.

But my question for you ZIppyDSM do you own any of the 3 consoles?

azndrake
No I mean it will hurt the PS3 ,I dont think the PS3 brand would die so easily more like but humble pie like nintendo has with the 64/GC but heres the problem the 360 is handicapped the WII is underpowered and the PS3 is a mountain whos the "winner" here?,the PSX/PS2 won via volume and content mixed with graphics the WII cant really do it,the 360 has a better chance but MS has screwed it up allot so it just leaves the PS3 that is as bad as the Saturn to code for.

What I am getting at this is a new kind of mess games are costly to make now adays much more than during the PSX-PS2 days devs are more liky to skimp on gameplay to get graphics done I don't see allot of evolution so far and it worries me.

I have clocked 30 hours playing a 360 visiting a friends house and abotu 10 hours on a PS3 that was later sold for 100$ loss,Res and a couple other titles I didn't care for,liked rez had some basic collision and light issues(cenamatics look abit better than the game).

the PS3 has issues Price,BR,BWC,Games most of witch will get better in time but SOny should have learned somthign from MS,hopefully their BWC will be more complete.

ZIppyDSM,

It seems as though from your previous post that you feel that wii is not a contender of being a next-gen system, which is an interesting point of view. Some people do believe most consoles sold = next gen and who knows it might be the wii.

Anyways I highly doubt devs will sacrifice gameplay for graphics, because game- play is what sells the game, while graphics is just a +. For example a perfect game is genji and look at where its at now :P.

azndrake
Not been paying attention to gaming the past 5 years gameplay has declined while graphics has been imporving.

The Wii is great and all but I just don't see devs flocking to it for the center of gaming not with the new hollywoodized gaming industry.

Genji's gameplay gets old after awhile its not better than DMC/Onimusha/GOW.... its a good enough game but missing something.

all in all all the systems are heavily handicapped in one way or another witch makes things different and interesting to watch,I might be a jaded old gamer but I try and not bring my basis into things...try... *L* :P

ZIppyDSM,

Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:

---

azndrake
Not been paying attention to gaming the past 5 years gameplay has declined while graphics has been imporving.

Genji's gameplay gets old after awhile its not better than DMC/Onimusha/GOW.... its a good enough game but missing something.

---

Like what I stated in my previous post (obvious you didn't read it) that graphics don't sell games LOOK AT GENJI its one of the worst games out there for the ps3 with superior graphics. So I think you misinterpreted what I was stating(if you read my previous post), instead you seem to think I stated that GENJI was a great game, even though I am arguing that genji sucks, which means you are supporting my argument that gameplay sells games not graphics.

I also do not see your reasoning about how gameplay has dropped, but i agree that graphics are improving. Look at little big planet and tell me gameplay dropped. Look at final fantasy 13 and tell me gameplay dropped. Look heavenly swords and tell me that gameplay dropped. There are more games that I can mention that would drop your argument that gameplay has decreased over the past 5 years (don’t know where you got that number from), therefore sorry to say argument is dismissed. Gamesplay reaching new heights is the key to selling games.

Look back at all the games that sold 1m copies they ALL have GREAT gameplay, while games that have great graphics like genji(ps3) and shitty gameplay is nowhere near the 1m mark in terms of sale.

azndrake
you don't seem to understand the industry is doubly protected from bad game sales becuse the retailer bears the brunt of it,much like hollywood it has enough money to toss around to protect itself from the reality of failing.

Ya look at the evolution of games most capcom,Sqaure,Edio,ID,Raven titles have become cash in the gameplay stagnating lets look at some games

Doom 3/Quake 4
THe graphics have improved but the gamepaly itself did not in fact from RTCW the level design went down hill look at Q2 and compare its design with Q4,Q4 is shallow and bland.

Moveign on to FF FF7 was good,FF8 equipment/magic setup hurt it greatly,FF9 solid,FFX the battles are shallow the equipment system is weak,now we have a MMO bastard child of FF12 the battles are pretty messed up the skill system is off but stable...the story is so so.

Res is generic,Zelda TWP is zelda with a new look but suffers from teh same issues OOT/MM/WW did,I can go on but if you don't see the rust beyond the shine then you need to play more games.

On a whole gameplay has stagnated since 01 or 02 with graphics gettign most of the attention by pubs and devs and still dose today.

I might overly focus on it,there are good games out there just more far and few between since not as many people are making games today,also a project has to be ok'd by teh suits and the suits are not going to understand the hogwash of gameplay you have to sale them a idea or a image,and corporations like images....

ZIppyDSM,

Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:

---

azndrake
you don't seem to understand the industry is doubly protected from bad game sales becuse the retailer bears the brunt of it,much like hollywood it has enough money to toss around to protect itself from the reality of failing.

Ya look at the evolution of games most capcom,Sqaure,Edio,ID,Raven titles have become cash in the gameplay stagnating lets look at some games

Doom 3/Quake 4
THe graphics have improved but the gamepaly itself did not in fact from RTCW the level design went down hill look at Q2 and compare its design with Q4,Q4 is shallow and bland.

Moveign on to FF FF7 was good,FF8 equipment/magic setup hurt it greatly,FF9 solid,FFX the battles are shallow the equipment system is weak,now we have a MMO bastard child of FF12 the battles are pretty messed up the skill system is off but stable...the story is so so.

Res is generic,Zelda TWP is zelda with a new look but suffers from teh same issues OOT/MM/WW did,I can go on but if you don't see the rust beyond the shine then you need to play more games.

---

Quake 4 what’s that came to my mind because you are right it isn't that great of a game it will go downhill just like what happened to Genji, which supports my claim, that shitty game will not appeal to the community. Therefore agreeing to my previous statement that Gameplay sells games and not graphics.

Also your first paragraph fully supports my claim that bad games aren't being sold if I am correct because the game's gameplay sucks. Also your claim that retailers don't want to put up bad games totally supports my argument, but still I want to disprove that statement(because i don't like freebies). I have seen every game released on the 360 platform at gamestop, which disproves your idea that retailers is biased on only supplying games they feel will sell. Also there is something called the INTERNET where games are usually cheaper than the retailer.

Also story and gameplay are two different categories dismisses your claim about the whole FF series, and your claim that FF12 is mess up is totally your opinion towards the game and not what the majority thinks. Just because you don't like that style of gameplay does not make that style of gameplay inferior to the prior releases.

I don't get what you are saying on The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Look at the reviews it has a score of 9.5 with a gameplay of 10 out of 10 this already dismissed your case about games going down hill. Prior to this game on the n64/gamecube Zelda did way worst than the Legend of Zelda Twilight Princess did. Those are just your opinions that the gameplay has decreased, but from professionals they say differ.
http://www.gametrailers.com/gamepage.php?id=2631

You have only came up with THREE games (out of how many games?), which i disproved all of them as either following my statement or does have a great gameplay. What you stated for all those games completely follows what I stated that the better the gameplay of games = more games sold. This disproves that graphics is the ultimate reason people buys the games. Also gameplay has not been going downhill since 2001 it has actually been going up if you believe it or not.

ZIppyDSM,

I appreciate you putting up a great fight in a losing battle. Props to you man for trying so hard, but facts are always stronger than opinion and all your posts in this article are your opinions. Still it has been fun duking it out with you and next time bring some data into the mix bb.

Hi all, I'm just curious about those Taiwanese game developers... can you tell me the games developed by those guys? Or the games they're planning to release? It makes no sense to argue over something that's not even gonna make a dent to the Sony gaming market...

azndrake
SO? we come to the opinion our opinion makers stink :P

do make this thread stink too
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/9161.cfm
its hard when its just me making a oder :P

azndrake
what do you think of my point abotu the indutry being protected from "bad games" since retail buys out 60-90% of thier stock they get to deal with the glut and large chain stores and simply sale it off at a small loss from whole sale to whole sale while the Publishers are realivily protected from the brunt revenue loss.

Now if they are protected from it then cash in games are released more freely and that can diminish over all quality of the indutry,unlike in the 90s the indutry is more compact leading to more hills and valleys (medicoreness) and less mountains and cliffs(cult creating games and canslations).

I gues Halo is a cult force,altho I found it to be "ok"(7) both are a few points from the 9 most cultists give it,the aim system drives me crazy and the auto aim is annoying add no button mapping these make the game a bit elitist,whatever happen to button mapping and game play switchs to make the game more harder or more enjoyable,I palyed Halo on the PC that was 8 it was fun and neat even if it was a bit generic,Halo 2 on the xbox is not all that I miss the uber vechiles,I got a Max shooter for the Xbox to be able to have fun with the game after I beat it,while not PC its nice to play it with a mouse,tryign to slop thru sudeki what a odd lil game it dosent suck as much as they did to many things at once and didn't polish after sticking all the parts together..

I wish the Xbox had a code breaker or real Action replay I love lil cheats that add gameplay and remove some frustration.
Been plying DMC2 again the inf double jump almost changes the game if you try and limit it to only 3 or 4 jumps hes messing things up all over the place,it helps with the blandness at least 0-o

I just bought blood Omen 2 because the PS2 version some nice cheats inf jumping,inf rage all, darkgifts,long jump anywhere,wish it had non breakable weapons and keep weapon codes that would make it more fun :3
I think BO 2 is the only Kain game I have not played all the way threw. god I wish edios/CD got off thier arse sooner the gameplay was dieing in that series best damn story and Vaign for a US game tho,I wish they would make the next one a bit more adventure/RPG like SR1-2 and BO2.

Speaking of dieing games konami if you here me we can save casltvina!!
ack rambling and caffine is bad :P

Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:

---

azndrake
SO? we come to the opinion our opinion makers stink :P

do make this thread stink too
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/9161.cfm
its hard when its just me making a oder :P

---

I think the feud between you and BobbyBlu is enough for the thread to "stink", so theres no need for me to join in that battle.

azndrake
I am a bit more balanced in my annoyance of all 3 new systems :P
I think the best point I made was that things are more interesting now because theres no telling what will happen what games/devs will go to who and who will polish their system better than the other.
I am seeing visions of a uber 3 way tie it gives me a headache....or maybe thats the caffeine :P

BB clings to sony a bit to much,and I cling to the "evils"(shallowness,corruption,lack of polish) of gaming a bit to much :P

ZIppyDSM,

Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:

---

azndrake
what do you think of my point abotu the indutry being protected from "bad games" since retail buys out 60-90% of thier stock they get to deal with the glut and large chain stores and simply sale it off at a small loss from whole sale to whole sale while the Publishers are realivily protected from the brunt revenue loss.

Now if they are protected from it then cash in games are released more freely and that can diminish over all quality of the indutry,unlike in the 90s the indutry is more compact leading to more hills and valleys (medicoreness) and less mountains and cliffs(cult creating games and canslations).

---

If what you said was true then basically it would mean that even a shitty game will sell 1 million units, WHICH has never happened. Shitty games don't get protected by retailers they just die. Doing business = 0 tolerance. Just picture yourself owning a supermarket and some customer want to sell you expired milk, would you buy the milk? Hell no. Why would retailers buy out "60-90%" of the shitty game’s stock if they are going to lose money selling it? The GOLDEN RULE FOR ALL business is to maximize profit not minimize profit: /. After dismissing your first paragraph’s claim it basically denounces your whole second paragraph since they are NOT PROTECTED.

As for your rambling about halo stating that halo2's gameplay sucks is very interesting. IF that game isn't that great WHY WOULD PEOPLE believe that HALO3 = (ps fans) the savior of Xbox 360 or (for Xbox fans) the final blow in crushing ps3. Shit, if halo2 gameplay sucks everyone would not expect much from Halo3, but since the expectations are so high (some people brought crackdown just to play halo3 beta) I highly doubt you can say halo2 gameplay isn’t great.

As for DMC2 and w/e else you said are totally your opinion just like what you stated about halo being a crappy game, therefore i am not gonna even evaluate your pointless comments about DMC2 etc.

Also you stated:

Quote:

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I think the best point I made was that things are more interesting now because there’s no telling what will happen what games/devs will go to who and who will polish their system better than the other.

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I don’t think you ever made a point about what you stated in that quote. You have been arguing that graphics is what sells games, NOT gameplay. While I argue that gameplay is what makes or breaks the game. Also you argue that gameplay has been going down hill by your comment of halo2 is completely false. I have just further dismisses your claims from this post and my prior posts. Also cheats for games..... that ruins the gameplay experience not enhances it. : / This is why I have no idea where that imaginary point of yours came from, since you have not stated anything about that claim in any of your posts till now.

ZIppyDSM,

Aside from this topic, I think you really "owned" bb in that other topic so gj there.

How about this….
Right now one of the hottest selling games is Grand Theft Auto San Andreas and Grand Theft Auto 4 is more anticipated than anyone could ever imagine. Why?
It's not graphics cause the graphics in GTA SA sucked. Everything from GTA2 till now all look the same.
I know people are going to argue this but it's not game play either. All of these GTA type games are all the same. There is nothing new. Run, Jump, Shoot and Drive. That’s it! Running and jumping are fine but as a shooter it was terrible and the cars didn't exactly handle at all.
What sold the GTA series and all its clones was the story, the violence and a lot of popular stereotyping. Sort of like the same reason Mortal Kombat was popular. Adults hated it so the kids loved it. It is wrong to car jack somebody so if a game lets you do it then it's cool. It is wrong to beat somebody up in the street and take their money but if it is in a video game it is cool. It glorifies the inner city way of life and the violence that goes along with it and that is what sold the game. Advertising played a large role in GTA’s success as well.

I’ll leave some space here for your comments…….



You said about Doom 3, Quake 4 and I’ll add Half life 2 to this as well.
All of these games look incredible and are fun to play once. The second time thru the game the excitement is gone and you know what is coming next. The replay value is in the Multiplayer and On Line abilities of the game. Playing with people from across the world is what people want out of games like this. Why do you think the Unreal Series went totally Multiplayer? The graphics are what sold these games but it was the On Line play that kept them alive.
The Halo series is another story. I don’t get why people think this game is so great. I think it’s because for a long time it was the only 1st person game worth playing on the Xbox but that’s just my opinion. Shoot me. But this game falls in line with Doom, Quake and Half Life. The game play is the same and it’s fun once and then it is off to Multiplayer land.
I’ll say more later. I’m tired.

azndrake
what I am trying to say is that the publisher gets moeny for any game they make they get more from better sales yes but they make a "profit" off even the bad games.
Yes bad games fail but between the pubs and the suits they could care less they want the prject down and out no matter how iffy it is quake 4 on the 360 was rushed and because of it had issues,what was that flying game on the Xbox that was released with a major crashing bug point is large pubs shrug off bad games while smaller ones are hurt from it.

DMC
I am 6 or 7 levels into dantes side on DMC2,so far he has acouple hidden moves unlike DMC1 where he had 2 or 4 moves tied to skills you could level,2 swords that attack the same way his guns and a shotgun that should be 30% more powerful the level design is ok but the flow (level to level) and story are messed up,DMC1 was made with allot more skill and care,the only thing DMC2 dose better is the camera points and he can fully dodge now and aim 2 ways with his pistols.
I want to play DMC 1 again befor I start DMC3SE :3 I got a weeks worth of DMC here :P


---------
Halo is a solid game,most consumers don't focus on the gameplay or glitchs of a game they jsut paly it and move on its something to play after all,I look at it as a moder/builder and a disabled gamer,I think halo would have been prefect if they put in a regular aim system and the abilty to turn auto aim off its called giving the player choice something they dont do allot of anymore,I also find it strange something as simple as button mapping is rarely used.
Halo 2 is maybe alittle better than Halo 1 you still have the quirky aim system, and the realistic vehicle damage is a bit much,I really liked the indestructibility of them in Halo 1,the core of halos gameplay was enhanced a lil by dual weapons.

------------
Gamplay evolution
Oh really we have more cash in titles and less truly evolving branded games now adays

GTA didn't evolve much carried its issues from one game to the next the new one looks nice but if they failed to fix the aim system and other oddties then is it really better than the old GTAs?

ZeldaTWP has not evolved much from OOT/MM/WW all it has is a new look the gameplay has not even been polished much.

FF12 is not "better" than FFX more like a reworking of the frustration factors and watered down parts.

Castlivaina PS2/Xbox now theres a upgrade in evaluation >>

Mario suunshine nice gamepaly with one huge gaping hole the hellish jump areas are part of completing a level and throw the flow of the game off.

Megaman X since X7 why oh why cant we have a nice 3rd person shooter...........BTW capcom make Mega man legends 3 already damn it :P

MGS twin sankes:I wish more games got nice remakes like this my only complaint is they killed the awe I had for the game with the crappy music they just had to go out of their way to put into it.

I can list a dozen other games that either carry over their issues from the last game or try and reinvent them selfs and do it without any foresight or forethought as it is to what they are doing my point pubs want things done now and devs have to balance making a game pretty enough with something that that plays well enough,evolution in gameplay has been on the back burner for half a decade or more now.

Now and then a game comes along that dose do well on most grounds God Of war is freaking high art well bloody high art,it dose nearly everything it dose well.
Gears of war almost reinvets 3rd person shooters there are a few other games that at least try and learn from other games or do something new that dose not have a ton of holes in it however they are few and far between.

djeazyg
the devil is in the details do what you do but do it well,GTA can improve its game play GTA suffers from aim system and other small play control issues.

the first 3d MK game on the p2s was a bit of a let down it had sloppy controls now the newer one is a bit better but they really need to find a better way to do 3D fighters the whole 100 mooves per charatcer is annoying I miss the old days 2D days when you had worth while power moves :P


Half life where Q4 and D3 uttrly fail(level design) HL2 dose not however it dose tend to have bland level design for a adventure class fps they seem to have forgotten what made their games great I blame carmack and the smack he smokes Doom and Quake even HL are adventure class FPSs large well designed levels are needed but graphics/time/interest ARE holding it back,look at ut03/04 UT99 is still more fun than both altho the vechiles of 04 make up for 03 half the time I hope UT3 will be good.
BTW Unrela 2 did not do well they had lost the ability to crate a great single player fps,that and createing a line of MP games on the consoles they broken thier stuff up even more thats why 03 was so fcked and 04 is lacking ,you should play UC2 on the Xbox thats where all the quality went altho mellee combat could use more polish,UT3 will be a mix of UC and UT.


I need bioshock now I cant wait for it :3

As for halo 3 things made it 1 marathon cult follow,best fps of its time and Xbox/power mad fanboys
I see the graphic issues weapon issues,vechile issues, and balanced and wonder what game did they play 0-o its not the 2nd coming and DUke3d is more fun so its good for what it is but not great :P

ZIppyDSM,

Quote:

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azndrake
what I am trying to say is that the publisher gets moeny for any game they make they get more from better sales yes but they make a "profit" off even the bad games.
Yes bad games fail but between the pubs and the suits they could care less they want the prject down and out no matter how iffy it is quake 4 on the 360 was rushed and because of it had issues,what was that flying game on the Xbox that was released with a major crashing bug point is large pubs shrug off bad games while smaller ones are hurt from it.

---

Your first paragraph states that devs make money just by making games, and sales is just a small portion of the amount of money they make is retarded. From your statement it means that any game I make even if it only has one line saying THE END by azndrake will make a profit. Now you know stupid your statement is by my example. Sales is the only a way to get profit, Besides patents (but thats another story thats irrelevant to this topic).

Also your second paragraph is totally full of misleading information that really does not make much sense. After trying to evaluate your second paragraph I have come to a conclusion that it was just full of words that has no meaning. All i am thinking is how does that paragraph support your argument that graphics sells games. That paragraph seems to support my argument that gameplay sells games more than yours. This demoralizes me by making me feel like i am wasting my time by talking to a retarded 10 year old that doesn't seem to get what i am trying to say. Instead of re-evaluating his own meaningless posts and realizes that all he said was bs, that 10 year old starts rambling more bs.


Your first paragraph is meaningless

Quote:

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Halo 2 is maybe alittle better than Halo 1

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Proves my point, so why did you even bring it up?

Quote:

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DMC2 dose better is the camera points and he can fully dodge now and aim 2 ways with his pistols.

---

Proves my point again :P

Although you may not agree it is a fact that gameplay and story are two different categories.
Sorry to say your posts and opinions are made up info, i know that may sound harsh, but research before you post thanks :P.
I am just gonna post my previous thread again, because it has already covered your meaningless points.

ZIppyDSM,

Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:

---

azndrake
what do you think of my point abotu the indutry being protected from "bad games" since retail buys out 60-90% of thier stock they get to deal with the glut and large chain stores and simply sale it off at a small loss from whole sale to whole sale while the Publishers are realivily protected from the brunt revenue loss.

Now if they are protected from it then cash in games are released more freely and that can diminish over all quality of the indutry,unlike in the 90s the indutry is more compact leading to more hills and valleys (medicoreness) and less mountains and cliffs(cult creating games and canslations).

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If what you said was true then basically it would mean that even a shitty game will sell 1 million units, WHICH has never happened. Shitty games don't get protected by retailers they just die. Doing business = 0 tolerance. Just picture yourself owning a supermarket and some customer want to sell you expired milk, would you buy the milk? Hell no. Why would retailers buy out "60-90%" of the shitty game’s stock if they are going to lose money selling it? The GOLDEN RULE FOR ALL business is to maximize profit not minimize profit: /. After dismissing your first paragraph’s claim it basically denounces your whole second paragraph since they are NOT PROTECTED.

As for your rambling about halo stating that halo2's gameplay sucks is very interesting. IF that game isn't that great WHY WOULD PEOPLE believe that HALO3 = (ps fans) the savior of Xbox 360 or (for Xbox fans) the final blow in crushing ps3. Shit, if halo2 gameplay sucks everyone would not expect much from Halo3, but since the expectations are so high (some people brought crackdown just to play halo3 beta) I highly doubt you can say halo2 gameplay isn’t great.

As for DMC2 and w/e else you said are totally your opinion just like what you stated about halo being a crappy game, therefore i am not gonna even evaluate your pointless comments about DMC2 etc.

Also you stated:

Quote:

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I think the best point I made was that things are more interesting now because there’s no telling what will happen what games/devs will go to who and who will polish their system better than the other.

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I don’t think you ever made a point about what you stated in that quote. You have been arguing that graphics is what sells games, NOT gameplay. While I argue that gameplay is what makes or breaks the game. Also you argue that gameplay has been going down hill by your comment of halo2 is completely false. I have just further dismisses your claims from this post and my prior posts. Also cheats for games..... that ruins the gameplay experience not enhances it. : / This is why I have no idea where that imaginary point of yours came from, since you have not stated anything about that claim in any of your posts till now.

So there you have it this is my final post on this topic until you actually bring up some info that supports what you claim.

azndrake
my brain is broken :P

being LD my thoughts tend to merge and cross,it can be fun to try and think sometimes :P

Perhaps I am not focusing enough but when I look at gaming as a whole "evolution" theere within is slow and cumbersome,being a little better dose not count as a improvement,take DMC2 it has no story,no real skill progression but has larger levels,better dodging and slightly better static cam points is it better than DMC1 no it dose improve on things but overall fails ,allot of games do this but with slightly better results like Halo 2 but yet again the core gameplay issues remain,GTA 3 to GTA 3SA you get more of the same with no real improvements this is pretty much indutry wide improvements do come but they are few and far between.

Graphics have pretty much tooken over its what a game are built around 8 times out of 10 with game play being 2nd or in cases of 25 to life or any random cash in game 3rd or 4th..I wonder if the "star" thats gets a game has to pay a upfront "fee" :P
Even if graphics have not stolen resources from gameplay, gameplay needs more polish and care.

I didnt say Halo was crappy a 3 or 4 is crappy a 6 or 7 is above average 8-9 is good 10 is great,I have not played a 11 since the 90s :X.
HaloXbox 6
HaloPC 8
Halo2 7

C&C R=4(cute but stupid)
Unreal 2 2(ICK!!!!!)
D3 3 (great story...for doom.....)
Q4 4(medicore gun and run)
Pray 5(cute but missing something)
HL2 7(gimmicky grav gun and sploppy ending hurt it the most)
Morrowind 6 (to big sucks to carry ammo)
Duse ex 1 (9,if the aim system was not odd itd be a 11)
Daikatana 6 (yes it was better than DX2)
DX2 4(meh)
Arx faltalis 7(odd/fun lil game a shame its dev died,also the good ones,been waiting for them to put ID in the ground for years!!I guess its a zombie now :P)

(last few fps that were 8 or higher Darkwatch stupid but fun,Clive bakers undying,Halo PC,)
I am not found of WW2 FPSs or "modern warfare" I really liked XIII tho thats a 7 I am a odd ball 0-o


No matter what anyone says from what I have seen large devs are doubly protected from the brunt of bad game sales,that reason being they sale it to retail in large numbers at MSRP and retail gets to play hot potato with it ,either way they are "comfortable" in profit or loss, small devs or medium devs that have fallen out of favor with publishes (Trokin,Ion storm,ect) die or survive on the profit they make,but large devs that are now part of a conglomerate of devs and pubs are protected to a extent.

god its 3am >< I am sleep typing

Did anyone care to read any of that^^? I know I didn't...blah blah blah blah...yawn!

Originally posted by fgamer:

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Did anyone care to read any of that^^? I know I didn't...blah blah blah blah...yawn!

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I dont think I read it myself ;_;