AfterDawn: Tech news

HD-DVD camp responds to Blu-ray claims

Written by Andre Yoskowitz (Google+) @ 25 Apr 2007 21:08 User comments (59)

HD-DVD camp responds to Blu-ray claims After Blu-ray disc sales hit 1 million on Monday, the Blu-ray camp was quick to claim they were building an insurmountable lead.
Today however, the HD-DVD Promotional Grouphas disputed the Blu-ray claims, stating that 998,059 HD-DVD discs have been sold. The 2000 disc difference is certainly not an insurmountable lead.

"As more HD DVD titles hit the market and as prices for HD DVD hardware continue to drop below the $400 mark, we're seeing more equal week to week movie sales ratios between the formats,"
a group spokesperson said.

The spokesperson also claimed that presales for "The Matrix Trilogy" and BBC's "Planet Earth" showed strength for the format.

The group also took issue with the fact that the Blu-ray groups include the PlayStation 3 in overall hardware sales. They claim that when "true set-top boxes" are compared, HD-DVD holds a 4-to-1 margin over its rival.

"Bottom line is that HD DVD is staying focused across the board on creating great products at great prices,"
the spokesperson added.

Source:
BetaNews

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59 user comments

125.4.2007 21:31

While technically the PS3 can play Blu-ray movies, I do stand behind the HD DVD promotional group in its complaint. The number of PS3s sold does not reflect the interest in Blu-ray at all as its a device that is made and sold primarily for gaming. I'm not arguing that many people didn't buy the PS3 solely for movies, I'm sure some did, but what if this was just a Blu-ray player and nothing else with a $599 price tag.... the figures would be nowhere near where they are now.

HD DVD Promotional Group does not even count the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on drive to its 100,000 player estimate, even though morally it could - the add-on plays "only" HD DVD movies, there is no other reason to buy the add-on but still the group leaves it out of its hardware sales figures (more than likely because it is tied to a console, and even though you can use it with a computer, it doesnt act as a stand-alone by itself, so all-in-all it is just really a cheap alternative for someone who already owns an Xbox 360). The BDA makes these claims though because when they do they reach sites like AfterDawn after the associated press and reuters etc. pick up on the releases and then newspapers all over the world print it as "fact" along with some home theater magazines etc. Every major corporation or trade association etc. does this

225.4.2007 23:10
pigfister
Inactive

the sale of Blu-ray titles are fictional because of all the redeemable vouchers in ps3 and Blu-ray players for $10 films.

what i cant understand is how sony and cronies can spin this to say that they are winning/won the next generation format war when the market share of hd material is less than 5%. surly the ppl have to choose a format before anyone can call victory. all this crappy spin just makes me boycott both formats.
imo sony's arrogance(xcp, ARccOS, MPAA member pushing DRM, while others drop it, exploding batteries) and public relations spin/lies will make them lose this battle as ppl are not as stupid as they used to be especially now the majority of families are hooked up to the net and have news at their fingertips.

326.4.2007 1:24

I have been a long time HD DVD backer, but I am yet to buy any HD player or any HD films. I hope HD DVD wins, just to show the world(Sony) that ppl are not that stupid. Sony also has this arroganse to them, forcing Playstation fans to pay extra getting a BD player in PS3 (piece of sh*t 3), an unproven format, that is likely to loose (if the Wal-Mart story is accurate)I hope it is.

I am yet to buy anything as there are no winner(s) yet. I do have an x360 so I may get the ms HD DVD when (if) films comes to my rental shop. I am not going to buy expensive discs when DVDs are sooooo much cheaper HD or no HD.

I used to have a VHS collection. Then I got a DVD collection and now they want me to upgrade once more? And even to an unproven format. No Way!!!

426.4.2007 1:52
crackys
Inactive

Originally posted by wxb_org:
I have been a long time HD DVD backer, but I am yet to buy any HD player or any HD films. I hope HD DVD wins, just to show the world(Sony) that ppl are not that stupid. Sony also has this arroganse to them, forcing Playstation fans to pay extra getting a BD player in PS3 (piece of sh*t 3), an unproven format, that is likely to loose (if the Wal-Mart story is accurate)I hope it is.

I am yet to buy anything as there are no winner(s) yet. I do have an x360 so I may get the ms HD DVD when (if) films comes to my rental shop. I am not going to buy expensive discs when DVDs are sooooo much cheaper HD or no HD.

I used to have a VHS collection. Then I got a DVD collection and now they want me to upgrade once more? And even to an unproven format. No Way!!!

526.4.2007 3:34
26r0cK
Inactive

@ wxb_org
...not saying anything against you, but about Sony forcing ppl into their blu ray player with the PS3, its just to me i think that if the PS3 uses games on Blu ray disc anyways then wouldnt u want it to play Blu Ray movies as well? i'd find it weak if the PS2 couldnt play DVDs and just only PS2 games. Even for like DVDroms, id be pissed if my DVDrom cant run anythings thats on DVD. Im sure it mite be Sony's intention to sell more blu ray players but Sony has been doing this since the PS1 so i dont think its really a big deal.Besides,rememeber how the PS2 was like 500$ when it first came out?Back when the PS2 came out there were already stand alone DVD players for less then the PS2, where as now the PS3 looks more like a bargain compaired to the stand alone Blu ray players. Just my opinion. And ya it sucks to start a new collection of a new medium, I too had a huge VHS and growing my DVD collection. What ur feeling now about not wanting to upgrade is the exact same way when DVDs first came out and knocked off VHS. But thats how technology works lol. You'd be crazy to think if 1080p is the highest TV resolution its gonna get.

But yea, im no fan boy, and i think that its best for this whole format war to be kept silent til there's a definite winner. Im sick of all these Blu ray vs HD DVD or PS3 vs Xbox360 war. Be grateful that they're there giving us the option to choose whichever we desire.

@ crackys: wats the point of quoting wxb_org msg? LOL :P

626.4.2007 7:33

Both Formats have given away movies in game system promotions. HD-DVD gave away Hong Kong in the Xbox HD add on. Sony has given away Casino Royale and Ricky Bobby or has given vouchers for money off. Thats just marketing.

Quote:
Blu-ray camp was quick to claim they were building an insurmountable lead.
I'm getting a little tired of Blu-ray laying claim to victory all the time. It seems like thats a way for them to scare people into buying Blu-ray, by making people believe they won the format war.

HD-DVD has been pretty quiet and only fights comments from Blu-ray, I think they better step up to the plate and fight a little harder if they plan to win this format war. I hope they do win because the Blu-ray disc is very fragile and the quality is a little less compared to HD-DVD.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 26 Apr 2007 @ 7:34

726.4.2007 7:54
hughjars
Inactive

HD DVD are playing their own game, that is all.

BD (due to the enormous cost of it's initial investment) needed to knock HD DVD out of the market very quickly so as to grab all the market share and enjoy the economies of scale huge production numbers would bring to their inherently expensive hardware
(the unnecessarily high spec they have saddled themselves with ensures their hardware will always be expensive......they have to use more expensive higher spec parts and more of them, it's all down to the finer pit 'pitch' they use which is how come they can get 25gb per layer and HD DVD 17gb).

But it's now too late.
HD DVD have survived the propaganda and are also to enjoy multi-million production, thus locking BD into permanently higher prices.

The net result of this will be the BD exclusive hardware manufacturers going dual format or neutral to maximise what profits they can get out of the total market instead of fixing on merely one part of it......particularly as that part of it is so tiny and immature right now.
LG and Samung are simply the first to abandon the 'BD exclusive' stance they will not be the last this year......

.....and as HD DVD hardware becomes ever cheaper and sells in greater and greater numbers (remember there are 3 Chinese brands of HD DVD player coming towards the end of the year in addition to the Walmart deal) one can expect that situation to be reflected in the 'BD exclusive' studios too.

The truth is this, total high def disc sales amount to around 2.1 or 2.2 million retail movie discs.
Last year SD DVD sold over 750 million movie discs.

As the guy from Universal said, when each format can enjoy several new movie releases with peak week sales of several hundred thousand then we might see a 'war' on - right now we have only seen a mere and very scattered handful enjoying peak week sales of only a few thousand.
The 'war' starts at the end of 2007 and will probably last 12- 24mths.
But from what we can see so far it may not even come to that, the PS3 generated sales may never get to the level required if the current trends are anything to go by
(the movie disc sales 'gap' has been closing again in April, after the little splurge of BD movie disc sales following the Euro PS3 launch in march).

The ratios and percentages (cos they much prefer those to any actual numbers) the BD side love to talk about are likely to be mere phyrric victories.

.....but the warning is out there, the BD reliance on PS3 is not healthy for it, it has not generated the avalanche of movie sales they needed to kill off HD DVD and they simply do not have the same steady stand-alone sales that HD DVD enjoys and nor do they have the low price players coming - $500 is the lowest price point expected or announced this year for BD.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 26 Apr 2007 @ 8:02

826.4.2007 8:53

Precisely my point is, just like wxb_org, I am not going to spend money to replace movies I've owned on DVD and previously, VHS. Most likely I will only buy new movies and at $30+ a disc, don't bank on me doing that either. Besides, whichever format I choose, I'll only be able to own "half" the movies I want, since there's not a whole lot coming out on BOTH Blu-ray and HD-DVD. Makes the cost of the players and the discs more expensive, because in theory, you would need both players to get what you're looking for. Waste of time and money.

926.4.2007 9:20

I love HD and BLUE-RAY. Though regular DVDs are the best.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 07 May 2007 @ 10:43

1026.4.2007 9:52

HDVD-BR
it all comes down to price the consumer wants cheap stuff at good quality BR has yet to fully fight in the price war and until it can undercut its competition somehow they will never make any worth while headway.

iamgq
...uummmm NO....since the indutry will make games and movies on normal DVDs for the next 5 or 10 years..

what most PS3 fan boys seem to do not understand is that the industry wont be using BR for gaming thus all BR dose is put a multi disc game on 1 disc and the PS3 has a slow drive in it so accessing a 50GB game is going to be hard work because DL is a bit tougher on it than a SL disc.

All in all the PS3 has a long road ahead to fix its own weaknesses I am amazed people still want to pay double premiums for this untested beast.

1126.4.2007 10:37

I personally find the HD disks to be more user friendly. Having said that, I don't like paying 5 bucks more for them. I decided long ago that if I am going to jump in, I am going to do it with both feet. I currently own both a 360 with the HD drive, and a PS3. Funny thing is, I bought the 360 simply for Live experience and not the movies, but I bought the PS3 for a BD player that was $400 cheaper than a standard unit. I agree that you can't factor in all of the PS3 sales as BD hardware sales, because there are those that don't have HDTVs and don't care about movies, but there are a few of us that purchased them for just that. Just a thought.

In the end, I see Blu winning the fight. At least I can enjoy the ride.

1226.4.2007 10:44

Originally posted by DjRaise:
I personally find the HD disks to be more user friendly. Having said that, I don't like paying 5 bucks more for them. I decided long ago that if I am going to jump in, I am going to do it with both feet. I currently own both a 360 with the HD drive, and a PS3. Funny thing is, I bought the 360 simply for Live experience and not the movies, but I bought the PS3 for a BD player that was $400 cheaper than a standard unit. I agree that you can't factor in all of the PS3 sales as BD hardware sales, because there are those that don't have HDTVs and don't care about movies, but there are a few of us that purchased them for just that. Just a thought.

In the end, I see Blu winning the fight. At least I can enjoy the ride.
I don't see sony and others lowering their price enough to warrant a "win" I have a feelign in 3 years cheap(under 300) dual players will make send the format war into near inf spin and you'll have HDVD and BR waring on that front for 5 more years in that time frame BR very well could fix all of its issues and be priced cheap enough to gain everyones attention but the current war is a quagmire its just not going anywhere anytime soon.

1326.4.2007 14:08

I got King Kong and James Bond, and on a 1080p HDTV, I can honestly say James Bond looks better, NOT A HUGE difference but there is a difference none the less.

I think ALOT of people are underestimating Sony for the next gen and format war, I bet they come out with something huge over the next 1-2 years, and people will sit there and say "wow didn't see that coming, nice job sony" (and I dont mean HOME). I just dont think sony are dumb enough to throw all theirs eggs into one basket, and if they have, then it serves them right if they loose.

Anyone who sits here and says there is a clear cut winner at this point in time, not only between 360 and PS3 but also bluray and HD DVD, is in a single word, an IDIOT.

1426.4.2007 17:26
llongtheD
Inactive

Originally posted by iamgq:
Phuk hd dvds and 360! ALL ABOUT REGULAR DVDS AND BLURAY DISCS! PS3 WILL EVENTUALLY SLAUGHTERS COMPETION! hd buyers youre wasting youre money, period. quit acting like its anything of matter...
This guy probably owns a betamax, and a minidisc player as well, LOL.
Hope your playstation doesn't break down, because in 5-8 years its probably going to be hard to find a blue ray player to play your movies on. Once HD-DVD wins, Blu-ray will fade away just like those "other" sony formats.

1526.4.2007 17:30
hughjars
Inactive

The 'look' of your BD or HD DVD movie also depends a lot on your set-up and your kit.
Proper calibration ought to be something any half decent a/v system undergoes, then you begin to be able to see the best you can see from your stuff.

Each to their own on this and if your reckon your BD discs look better then good luck to you.

.....but let's have no BS here, it's the HD DVD players that have been winning the majority of the independent a/v review awards, not the BD stuff - and certainly not the PS3 game console.

1626.4.2007 17:33

Quote:
Originally posted by iamgq:
Phuk hd dvds and 360! ALL ABOUT REGULAR DVDS AND BLURAY DISCS! PS3 WILL EVENTUALLY SLAUGHTERS COMPETION! hd buyers youre wasting youre money, period. quit acting like its anything of matter...
This guy probably owns a betamax, and a minidisc player as well, LOL.
Hope your playstation doesn't break down, because in 5-8 years its probably going to be hard to find a blue ray player to play your movies on. Once HD-DVD wins, Blu-ray will fade away just like those "other" sony formats.
funny because in 5-8 years dual players will be mainstream and both formats still undecided.

1726.4.2007 18:33
llongtheD
Inactive

@ZIppyDSM

I can understand your opinion, and thats probably a safer bet than anything. It just amazes me how Sony can come up with good, or even better formats than anyone, and somehow always seem to cut there own throat. I think they just get so overly concerned with controlling their format, they forget about the consumer, or thier partners until its too late.

1826.4.2007 19:06

Sony is positioning itself for HD downloads as well.

That is where the future is. Even if you don't want to go that route, the PS3 will always play Blu-ray.

I don't care if HD-DVD sticks around for a while. It can only help lower Sony costs. BR is obviously winning in disk sales. It's been out for a much shorter time, and is well ahead of HD-DVD. All you need to do is go to a site like Amazon and look at how many titles are in the top 100 for Blu-ray, and for HD-DVD.

New Nielsen ratings are coming soon. It will be difficult for HD-DVD fans to feel excited about that, I'm sure.

As for not counting PS3's... go ahead and underestimate. It just makes you/HD-DVD look bad. A PS3 can still be had a lot less than most BR players, so for the guy who said Sony is trying to "force" people into paying a lot for a PS3 so it can play BR, think again. Many, many people buy the PS3 to play movies first and foremost (I did). Given that the PS3 is/was much cheaper than most set-top BR players, how was it that Sony was "forcing" people to buy it?

Oh... I suppose you could buy and Xbox/shopvac360 and start spending more and more for add-ons, and still end up with less capability for more money than a PS3, but I digress.

The PS3 is, and has been, the best deal on a Blu-ray player out there. And you get to play games, to boot (you also get internet firmware upgrades)!

Saying they're ignoring PS3 numbers is posturing. I assure you, they are VERY HIGHLY aware of the PS3's sales numbers.

How else would they explain that they are losing in disk sales to BR, when there are less than 1/4 number of BR stand-alone players out there?

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 26 Apr 2007 @ 19:13

1926.4.2007 19:40
llongtheD
Inactive

Damn, yet another sony fanboy not knowing what he is talking about. But I guess ignorance is best. Or is it wishful thinking?

2026.4.2007 22:47

Quote:
Today however, the HD-DVD Promotional Grouphas disputed the Blu-ray claims, stating that 998,059 HD-DVD discs have been sold. The 2000 disc difference is certainly not an insurmountable lead.
If these are the numbers i would not classify it as a victory for both sides. But like it was mentioned if the prices drop on HD-DVD, Blu-ray will have a hard time competing even if HD-DVD is the lower quality of the two. At the end of the day consumers look at their wallets and purses.

2126.4.2007 23:46

Reply from WXB_ORG:

Ok, my bad: PS3 is for many people a Trojan horse "forcing" Blu-ray on playstation fans. Sony is not forcing ppl to buy PS3, but they are using their sku as an Trojan horse for the Blu-ray format. Am I right or wrong?

Sony don't know what's good for them: ppl buying a ps3 just for Blu-ray = Sony looses money, just for games = Sony looses money..Gamers only interested in gaming have to buy a Blu-ray = LOOSING MONEY!!!

Experts say that this business model is bad for business unless Sony winns the farmat war. If they win, they can get back their losses in the long run.

For Sony fanboys/girls: Why do you think the 20 GB model was terminated? Why do you think Europe got it late + less for more? (backward compatibility). Why do you think the Sony PS3 boss just got fired? Why do you think Sony is claiming to have won the farmat war? When less than 5 % of the market has gone HD.

THE ANSWER: SONY IS LOOSING THE WAR...my guess only...
I don't really want them to go away, only to be honest and not so damn arrogant. Microsoft also has it's issues, they are not perfect. But I can't say that they are "forcing" HD DVD on their gamers like I feel Sony is doing...(with BD).

I don't buy the argument that PS3 needs Blu-ray to play games. They wouldn't willingly have lost all this money (getting PS3 late to market, bad business model etc. etc.) just for the sake of having a few HD games on one disc? How stupid do they think we are? Why not using DVD-9 as MS does? I'll tell you why: Trojan horse.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 27 Apr 2007 @ 0:11

2227.4.2007 4:54

LOL...Its don't matter what the PS3 is used for its call marketing people.Sony clearly said that the PS3 was going to be a entertainment console so i think it has the right to be called a stand alone player with gaming option also.If you look at the reviews on the PS3 BD player its has got very good review its not the same cheap ass DVD player they had in the PS2.Sony clearly ask PS3 buyer to used the system as a stand alone if they want,but they didn't think that was A wise idea to do with the PS2 DVD player.How can anyone say the Sony should not count PS3 sales is beside me but a BD Player is a BD player no matter what.I see this as a last effort on HD-DVD part because they have been very quiet because they didn't have any good news to report,What! they still releasing old movies on HD-DVD more than major movie titles.Look at the exclusive BR have compare to HD-DVD this is why BR make this claim weather BR right or not but for right now HD-DVD is behind BR like it or not.


Quote:
Today however, the HD-DVD Promotional Grouphas disputed the Blu-ray claims, stating that 998,059 HD-DVD discs have been sold. The 2000 disc difference is certainly not an insurmountable lead.
I'm sorry HD-DVD but your numbers are not adding up you just crack 100,000 stand alone just a few week ago.Even if you did add in the HD-DVD Add-on sales that still alot of movies per HD-DVD owner also with the high price tag of dual format your forcing on your customer something just don't add up here.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 27 Apr 2007 @ 6:02

2327.4.2007 9:01

NexGen76
and BR is doing SSSOOOO much better....not...

I have a feelign that there will be no end to the war that dual players will just focus the studios to pick a brand they like and press out movies on that format.

2427.4.2007 10:26
hughjars
Inactive

It's been known for ages that the 'attachment rate' of HD DVD movies to HD DVD players is far higher than happens in the BD camp.
This high rate has been observed since HD DVD began and before BD even launched.

Toshiba's annual results were published a couple of days ago.
The figure of 250,000 HD DVD players was mentioned.
100,000 stand-alones in the US, the rest are non-US stand alones and 360 addons.

The fact is that BD stand-alone numbers are minute.
BD depends almost entirely upon the PS3, a games console which, surprise surprise, is being used mainly as a games console and not so much a movie player
(once the money off vouchers and freebies had been had and now that the games situation has improved a little).

The sad truth for the BD side is that the PS3 games console is simply not generating sufficient retail movie disc sales numbers.

Once those 3 brands of inexpensive Chinese players arrive - in addition to any Walmart HD DVD deal - we are likely to see HD DVD movie sales rise beyond BDs reach as HD DVD takes the a/v market, if current PS3 movie attachment rates are anything to go by.

The BD 'attachment rate' is appalling.......and it's pretty laughable for BD fans to complain about the HD DVD movie disc sales numbers cos it doesn't look right compared to BD's abysmal numbers!?

You couldn't make it up. LMAO.

2527.4.2007 11:02

Both sides can talkup as much as they want and quite frankly who gives a toss as it's us the consumer who will decide which format wins and not some bean counter attempting creative counting to make out more are being sold than actual

2627.4.2007 11:17

Originally posted by scorpNZ:
Both sides can talkup as much as they want and quite frankly who gives a toss as it's us the consumer who will decide which format wins and not some bean counter attempting creative counting to make out more are being sold than actual

pretty much I see BR maybe havign a small edge but Hdvd has has one to so their neck in neck I think it will come down to price in the end.

2727.4.2007 13:40

Originally posted by hughjars:
It's been known for ages that the 'attachment rate' of HD DVD movies to HD DVD players is far higher than happens in the BD camp.
This high rate has been observed since HD DVD began and before BD even launched.
Hahhaahha.

This "attachment rate" has been so successful that HD-DVD has been handily surpassed by Bluray in disk sales since January... despite Bluray being out for all buy about six months (and HD-DVD over one year). As I tell anyone: Just look at overall disks sold. Amazon is a start. Nielsen provides the most solid information.

You've got strange ideas, my friend.

2827.4.2007 13:47

Baccusboy
no stranger than yours.... until the numbers state one is doing at least twice as well as the other nothing well change and pointing out one is doing a bit better than the other leads to nothing but faning the arse(fanboyisim)....

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 27 Apr 2007 @ 15:25

2927.4.2007 15:21
hughjars
Inactive

Quote:
Hahhaahha.
- Yeah, hahahahah (keep it up you might even convince yourself one day).

Your idea of what 'attachment rate' means is very funny indeed.
Hilarious in fact.

We can see (according to Neilson) BD have approx 1.2 million sales and HD DVD approx 940,000.

The figure may vary a little depending on the source but they tell much the same story.
BD sales are not stellar considering the numbers of players they claim (seeing as they claim every PS3 is used as a BD player).

Total HD DVD movie disc sales are a lot closer than the BD propaganda would love people to believe.

Those 3 million PS3s really have a very low attachment rate indeed.

.....and fundamental to all of this is the immaturity of the market.
Big deal they sold 60:40 last month (according to Neilson).
They're both selling tiny numbers (total sales slightly over 2 million discs) compared to the total movie disc market - which is over 750 million.

You can whine about it all being about 'the high def market' all you like but the studios just see total retail movie disc sales.

PS3 has simply failed to shift lots of BD movies and BD's reliance upon it for that will prove to be the weakness of their approach.

3028.4.2007 6:05
laserman
Inactive

I find it funny that most of the comments here contain spelling errors. Maybe some of you should move away from the TV for awhile. LOL!

HD-DVD, Blu-ray, who cares? If the market gets saturated enough with both formats the only real compromise will be players that support both formats. They are already in production and as they become more widespread the price will drop just like everything else does.

Remember the DVD-R / DVD+R issues with players? Everyone said this one or the other was better. So what happened? Most of the players support both formats now. High Def video will be no different.

3129.4.2007 1:46

We should all go have a beer?

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 07 May 2007 @ 10:44

3229.4.2007 6:53
pigfister
Inactive

Originally posted by laserman:
HD-DVD, Blu-ray, who cares? If the market gets saturated enough with both formats the only real compromise will be players that support both formats. They are already in production and as they become more widespread the price will drop just like everything else does.

Remember the DVD-R / DVD+R issues with players? Everyone said this one or the other was better. So what happened? Most of the players support both formats now. High Def video will be no different.
i couldn't agree more, the only thing now that could make a real difference is a cheap burner and media for us pc owner to use but while the price remains 100+ they can go blow, why purchase 1st 2nd or 3rd generation equipment as usually they are poor quality and over priced compared to later generations this is blatantly obvious with HDMI connection pre 1.3 which is most of the equipment out there, reminds me of this article:

High-Definition Multimedia Interface
Originally posted by wiki:
HDMI 1.0

Released December 2002.

* Single-cable digital audio/video connection with a maximum bitrate of 4.9Gbps. Supports up to 165Mpixels/sec video (1080p60Hz or UXGA) and 8-channel/192kHz/24-bit audio.

[edit] HDMI 1.1

Released May 2004.

* Added support for DVD Audio.

[edit] HDMI 1.2

Released August 2005.

* Added support for One Bit Audio, used on Super Audio CDs, up to 8 channels.
* Availability of HDMI Type A connector for PC sources.
* Ability for PC sources to use native RGB color-space while retaining the option to support the YCbCr CE color space.
* Requirement for HDMI 1.2 and later displays to support low-voltage sources.

[edit] HDMI 1.2a

Released December 2005.

* Fully specifies Consumer Electronic Control (CEC) features, command sets, and CEC compliance tests.

[edit] HDMI 1.3

Released 22 June 2006.[7] [8]

* Increases single-link bandwidth to 340 MHz (10.2 Gbps)
* Optionally supports 30-bit, 36-bit, and 48-bit xvYCC with Deep Color or over one billion colors, up from 24-bit sRGB or YCbCr in previous versions.
* Incorporates automatic audio syncing (lip sync) capability.
* Supports output of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio streams for external decoding by AV receivers.[9] TrueHD and DTS-HD are lossless audio codec formats used on HD DVDs and Blu-ray Discs. If the disc player can decode these streams into uncompressed audio, then HDMI 1.3 is not necessary, as all versions of HDMI can transport uncompressed audio.
* Availability of a new mini connector for devices such as camcorders.[10]

[edit] HDMI 1.3a

Released 10 November 2006.[11]

* Cable and Sink modifications for Type C
* Source termination recommendation
* Removed undershoot and maximum rise/fall time limits.
* CEC capacitance limits changed
* RGB video quantization range clarification
* CEC commands for timer control brought back in an altered form, audio control commands added.
* Concurrently released compliance test specification included.

HDMI, the Manchurian DRM - a Broadcast Flag dormant until 2010
Originally posted by boing boing:
Hollywood studios and some CE manufacturers have reportedly entered into an informal agreement to hold off on using the "image constraint token" in HDMI DRM until 2010 or 2012. The image constraint token is a flag in a video signal that instructs receivers, DVD players and other high-definition sources to "down-rez" their output to a low-definition signal when connecting to an "untrusted" screen or other sink.

The effect is that if your screen or recorder isn't blessed by Hollywood, they can limit the video they send to it to a low-resolution image. Manufacturers who want the full signal have to enter into the HDMI license agreement and agree to cripple their hardware in lots of ways -- and have to promise not to make their equipment compatible with anyone else's, unless they, too, agree to cripple their hardware.

HDMI doesn't come cheap. The PS3 is shipping in two versions: an HDMI version for $600 and a non-HDMI one for $500. If you try to play a "image constraint token" video on your non-HDMI PS3, you'll get a purposely downgraded picture.

Of course, no customer wants this. It's crazy to think that there are manufacturers out there who are devoting engineering resources to purposely degrading the quality of their products. Especially since there's very little HDMI equipment in the field today -- chances are the high-def screen you have in your house today is plugged into a PC, and isn't HDMI-ready at all. No reason not to use these cheap, plentiful screens with high-def players, except for the cartel's insistence that you shouldn't.

The agreement to stay away from the image constraint token for four or six years is a way to get around this. If the DRM is kept switched off for the first 4-6 years, there's an opportunity to lure people into accepting it -- to buy into devices, media, players, screens, storage and other components with HDMI crippleware within, but inactive.

This is a classic Manchurian Candidate strategy. These devices behave like normal gear until the studios pull the trigger, then they turn on you. The studios talk a big game about wanting to operate in a free market, but then you get stuff like this: back-room deals, restraint of trade, and attempts to subvert the market by fooling customers into buying crippled kit.

The conundrum isn't apparently lost on the consumer electronics industry or Hollywood. According to German-language Spiegel Online, there is reportedly a behind-the-scenes, unofficial agreement between Hollywood and some consumer electronics manufacturers, including Microsoft and Sony, not to use ICT until 2010, or possibly even 2012. Without providing more details, the report suggests that Hollywood isn't exactly happy with the situation, and could very well renege on the agreement, such that it is. But the agreement is there nonetheless, presumably to help the industry transition to HDMI. This could explain why the very same studios that pushed for HDMI and ICT have recently announced that they would not use it for the time being.

The report's claims could also shed some light on two of the more baffling consumer electronics moves as of late. Sony stunned onlookers when it announced that the low-end PlayStation 3, which will retail for US$499, will not have HDMI. This put Sony in the awkward position of downplaying HDMI as a "must have" feature for a next-generation optical disc player. Kaz Hirai, CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment of America, sidestepped the lack of HDMI by painting it as a high-end standard that wouldn't be aesthetically appreciated by many consumers.

3330.4.2007 12:36
techtoys
Inactive

I have had a HD-DVD player since October so you know what "camp" I am in. When I was making the most important decision of my life :) I compared a Blue-Ray disc of King Kong with a HD-DVD disc and I thought the HD-DVD looked a lot better. Before, the salesman did not think there would be much of a difference but he was impressed as well. This is I believe because Blue-Ray encoded movies are not using the advanced codecs yet. I think this is because of a shortage of dual layer media but I could be wrong. When this happens it will be interesting to compare the two (and people are going to have to buy their Blue-Ray movies again). One negative that does not seem to be discussed about the HD-DVD players is that all the sound needs to be mixed and decoded onboard. This is so it can mix the clicking sound when you press the remote button and add value added functionality like director's comments. Because of this you need a HDMI 1.3 compatible receiver that will accept 6 digital bitstreams. Because of this it will be difficult to buy a high end decoder. They will have to sell you the player with it, it seems and if you have a Blue Ray plaer one will have to buy a second Decoder or I imagine they will just use a combined player or two separates. I imagine the licensing to be able to use HDMI, HD-DVD, and the DRM technology to create such a product will be prohibitive for a lot of small companies. I think the days for both formats are numbered though as more and more movies are available on demand. Pretty soon one should be able to just pay a monthly fee to a company like NetFlix or BlockBuster and receive it via a cable modem both streaming and cached so it can be watched when unconnected (For those of you that take your big screen TVs with you in the RV as can be seen a lot of campgrounds) The notion of buying a library full of movies that will be in an obsolete format does not seem to make much sense. How many of you have VHS collections that are appreciating?

3430.4.2007 13:22
morguex
Inactive

Hey iamgq
Just a little friendly advice, be careful how you speak to people in the forums.
Or the next thing in braclets beside your name might just say(banned)

Peace

3530.4.2007 13:43

Quote:
I compared a Blue-Ray disc of King Kong with a HD-DVD disc
King Kong was never released on BluRay. It's a Universal Studios film and Universal is exclusive to HD-DVD. Maybe you were comparing a regular DVD to an HD-DVD.

Quote:
One negative that does not seem to be discussed about the HD-DVD players is that all the sound needs to be mixed and decoded onboard.
The same is true with BluRay players.

Quote:
Because of this you need a HDMI 1.3 compatible receiver that will accept 6 digital bitstreams.
If you let the player do the decoding then you just need HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 to send the signal to the receiver (or you can use analog outs if your player has them). If your receiver can decode the signals and if you want your receiver to do the decoding then you obviously need HDMI 1.3 on both ends.

3630.4.2007 13:46

techtoys

BR has dropped the old codecs and been using the more advanced ones for the past 7ish months in the end depdning on your video rig its going to look different they are so close most of the time the only real diffrance in them in size,DRM and backers.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 30 Apr 2007 @ 13:48

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

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3730.4.2007 14:43

Originally posted by techtoys:
I have had a HD-DVD player since October so you know what "camp" I am in. When I was making the most important decision of my life :) I compared a Blue-Ray disc of King Kong with a HD-DVD disc and I thought the HD-DVD looked a lot better.
Are you sure it was the King Kong HD-DVD that you saw? You said you bought your HD-DVD player in October based on watching King Kong but King Kong was released on HD-DVD on November 14, 2006:

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/kingkong2005.html

3830.4.2007 17:06

Maybe he was talking about Superman, which in my opinion, wasn't done well on Blu-ray. I haven't seen the HD-DVD.

Studios are figuring out that people read reviews about picture quality. A few more early titles that stink as far as transfer quality: 50 First Dates, xXx, and The Fifth Element. They are re-making The 5th Element because so many people were upset.

These problems were common early-on with both formats.

Another thing people aren't used to is the amount of grain in movies. You see more of it with these HD titles. The studios either want the HD movie to be more like the original film (or they are just lazy and don't want to tweak the final HD output), so they come out with a lot more grain included than what you'll see in a regular DVD.

3930.4.2007 19:17

Originally posted by Baccusboy:
Maybe he was talking about Superman, which in my opinion, wasn't done well on Blu-ray.
I don't think so. The Superman movies were released on November 28, 206 for both HD-DVD and BluRay. He said he decided on HD-DVD in October.

401.5.2007 0:43
pigfister
Inactive

Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:
techtoys

BR has dropped the old codecs and been using the more advanced ones for the past 7ish months in the end depdning on your video rig its going to look different they are so close most of the time the only real diffrance in them in size,DRM and backers.
i think maybe you need to reconsider that comment, and do a little research as Blu-ray are fully supportive of crappy mpeg 2 it is only the real blockbusters that are being made mpeg 4 then the media is full of sony spin about the future quality but they are not using it, and mostly all sony pictures are in last generation mpeg 2 and this is the future is it, sound that is worse than a dvd as it lacks DTS es/ex 6.1/7.1 and the same video codec as dvd's why not purchase the dvd DTS ver and upscale it ffs!


Dreamgirls http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?id=404

Paramount Pictures | 2006 | 131 mins | Rated PG-13 | May 01, 2007

Video
Video codec: MPEG-2
Video resolution: 1080p
Aspect ratio: 1.85:1
Audio
English: Dolby Digital 5.1
French: Dolby Digital 5.1
Spanish: Dolby Digital 5.1


Failure to Launch http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?id=251

Paramount Pictures | 2006 | 97 mins | Rated PG-13 | Apr 24, 2007
Video
Video codec: MPEG-2
Video resolution: 1080p
Aspect ratio: 2.35:1

Audio
English: Dolby Digital 5.1
French: Dolby Digital 5.1
Spanish: Dolby Digital 5.1

Night at the Museum http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?id=332

20th Century Fox | 2006 | 110 mins | Rated PG | Apr 24, 2007

Video
Video codec: MPEG-2
Video resolution: 1080p
Aspect ratio: 2.35:1

Audio
English: DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1
French: Dolby Digital 5.1
Spanish: Dolby Digital 5.1


Volver http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?id=396

Sony Pictures | 2006 | 121 mins | Rated R | Apr 03, 2007

Video
Video codec: MPEG-2
Video resolution: 1080p
Aspect ratio: 2.35:1

Audio
Spanish: PCM 5.1
Spanish: Dolby Digital 5.1
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 May 2007 @ 0:47

411.5.2007 4:32
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by Baccusboy:
These problems were common early-on with both formats.
- LMAO.

Yeah right.......let's see a few independent reviews that claim HD DVD had 'common problems' with the cr@ppy BD MPEG2 releases.

Quote:
Another thing people aren't used to is the amount of grain in movies. You see more of it with these HD titles.
- That wholly depends on the quality of the encode and whether it was oiginally and specifically intended to look like that by the director (as a deliberate effect).

When it's unintended it's usually just a matter of a cr@ppy encode......and the vast majority of those are BD, not HD DVD.

421.5.2007 5:37

MPEG-2 looks just fine, when done correctly. I have NIN on VC-1, and it has bad moments.

It's all about bitrate, no matter what the codec.

431.5.2007 7:04
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by Baccusboy:
MPEG-2 looks just fine, when done correctly. I have NIN on VC-1, and it has bad moments.
- The HD DVD version (in VC-1) has a 5 star rating for picture quality & sound quality, it has no "bad moments" -

Quote:
The result on this HD DVD edition is fantastic.
Judging any live performance that originated in HD requires a different set of evaluations than film-based material.
Video tends to have a much clearer, "you are there" sheen -- almost like looking out of a picture window, and 'Beside You in Time' is certainly no exception.
Shot entirely with high-def cameras, simply put, this is the best-looking concert video I've ever seen.
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/nineinchn...eyouintime.html

- Interestingly they also gave the BD version 5 stars.

Maybe it's your connectors, BD player or your screen?

Quote:
It's all about bitrate, no matter what the codec.
- It isn't.

Once you get past a certain minimum level it's about the efficiency of the codec.
HD DVD has a track record of (with one exception) consistent high quality.
BD on the otherhand has a raft of Mpeg2 movies that look like cr@p and everyone knows it
(barring the BD shills/hydra types & apologists still trying to pretend they're actually quite good - how many times have you ever heard of a movie being re-encoded cos the original looked like sh*t?)

It's widely known that HD DVD with VC-1 can reach transparency with the master, you just can't better that, no matter what BS you want to try claiming.

441.5.2007 22:02

hughjars, the encode from this concert is identical.

The PQ issues are identical with HD-DVD as they are with Blu-ray.

The '5-star' PQrating you speak of for this title is hardly accurate, and obviously put out by an HD-DVD fanboy site of some kind, if it exists at all.


Of course, HD-DVD fans need to be able to get their disks to play at all, first. This happens to be one of the highest-selling HD-DVD disks on Amazon, by the way.

Quote:
While Joe Kane's highly-anticipated calibration disc finally hit stores last Tuesday, many owners of the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on had a rude awakening when they attempted to boot up the disc, experiencing a series of hiccups and outright stalls that rendered key portions of the disc unplayable.
Source: http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/D...ayback_Snag/601

Another note which shows why HD-DVD is unreliable. Due to the HD-DVD production process, they are unable to make a few copies of a title so they can test them in players; they have to do an entire production run before they can test. This is not how it is with Blu-ray. So you could end up wasting an entire run of disks if there is an error. This information was provided by the guy in charge of the NIN project, by the way. Kind of negates any notion that HD-DVD is "cheaper."
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 May 2007 @ 22:03

451.5.2007 22:04

speaking of cdoec issues MS seems to be on the rocks with VC-1 didnt they go out of thier way to make it thier main codec?
http://mediacoder.sourceforge.net/blog/?p=11

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 May 2007 @ 22:04

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
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http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

462.5.2007 2:19

Quote:

I'm getting a little tired of Blu-ray laying claim to victory all the time. It seems like thats a way for them to scare people into buying Blu-ray, by making people believe they won the format war.

HD-DVD has been pretty quiet and only fights comments from Blu-ray, I think they better step up to the plate and fight a little harder if they plan to win this format war. I hope they do win because the Blu-ray disc is very fragile and the quality is a little less compared to HD-DVD.
honestly you have no idea what you are talking about there, blu ray discs are more durable than dvd you can scrape a cloth on it and it wont get scratched unlike dvd and HD DVD us it has an extra coating. not only that but with more space wuality can only be better, you must be talking about the VC-1 thing but that was solved and bluray has the abilty to use it, its only up to the studios.

472.5.2007 3:39
hughjars
Inactive

Quote:
hughjars, the encode from this concert is identical.
- Yes, but that doesn't mean your own set-up is properly calibrated or problem-free.

You'll also find that even with the supposedly "same encode" the HD DVD version can appear better (Warner movies are well known for this).

Quote:
The PQ issues are identical with HD-DVD as they are with Blu-ray.
- No not necessarily. Fundamentally the problem BD has is that HD DVD is a purpose designed video media and BD is a bulk data storage media, there is a difference.

But OK then, back this up, let's see an independent review saying there are "problems" with the HD DVD encode then.

Quote:
The '5-star' PQrating you speak of for this title is hardly accurate, and obviously put out by an HD-DVD fanboy site of some kind, if it exists at all.
- LMAO.
Typical.

You reckon Highdef digest is "an HD DVD fanboy site" huh?

You really don't have much of a clue do you?

You might try finding out a little bit about the things you're commenting upon.

Quote:
Another note which shows why HD-DVD is unreliable.
- No it doesn't.

It shows that there are a couple of instances where the XBox 360 HD DVD add-on, when connected to the XBox 360 base unit (not a PC btw) has some 'issues'.

(But so what? There is IIRC a firmware upgrade coming in the summer for it.)

Just as with all players there are sometimes 'issues'.

I'm guessing you are too young to know about how it was when SD DVD started?

......and of course you're not going to admit the same thing happens with the BD spec, right?

Quote:
Due to the HD-DVD production process, they are unable to make a few copies of a title so they can test them in players; they have to do an entire production run before they can test.
- Well OK, if you say so but again, let's see you back this claim up then.

Cos the HD DVD "process" is almost identical to the SD DVD one......but go ahead, take us through the stages that are so different & mean short run tests can't be done?

The fact is that it was a lack of testing on the XBox 360 HD DVD add-on when connected to the XBox 360 (it doesn't apply to it when connected to a PC).

It wasn't a problem with the HD DVD stand-alones.

Quote:
This is not how it is with Blu-ray.
- BS.

It is a fact, actually, that BD players have had their "issues" too.

It's how come BD players have had their own firmware upgrading to sort out their "issues" & problems too.

The PS3 alone is on it's, what, 5th firmware a mere matter of months after release?

The Samsung BDP1000 was well known as appallingly bad until they gave it some new softwares - something which killed it's reputation so badly that they are having to be sold off at a massively discounted price in Richer Sounds in the UK, down from 1000 to 350......and still they don't sell.

Quote:
Kind of negates any notion that HD-DVD is "cheaper."
- No, it simply illustrates, once again, the ridiculously half understood, half-truths, selective spin and exaggeration you regularly display here.

Zippy
I read that article (and a couple like it recently) but it doesn't seem to reflect reality IMO.
It says, for instance, that "Its no wonder that the use of VC-1 has fallen by the wayside."
Which is patently untrue.

Also I found part of the conclusion odd to say the least - "The intervening period of uncertainty has pretty much left VC-1 encoding only scarcely used, except a little on the web, with the exception of its use as an option in both High Definition DVD standards HD DVD and Blu-ray..

It's also the case that as Microsoft continues to develop VC-1 those improvements and efficiencies remain it's own.
(Amir on the AVS forums was describing a couple of months back how VC-1 had achieved transparency with bit-rates as low a 9mb/sec!
This is down from today's usual 12- 14mb/sec, a massive improvement.)

I wouldn't be so quick to write them off in this.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 May 2007 @ 3:41

482.5.2007 3:42

hughjars
with 10 hands in the jar its hard to tell whos rigging what to do what over the VC-1 codec,however they do it MS is still using it as one of its main codecs still.



Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

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492.5.2007 4:44
hughjars
Inactive

Absolutely zippy.

I just wonder where these guys are coming from sometimes.

Not only are they factually incorrect in claiming VC-1 is little used but for some odd reason they discount it's use (which they mention) as a movie codec (which is being used more and more).

On the one hand some want to claim Microsoft are 'the evil empire' and yet on the other they've apparantly "been mugged" cos one of their most successful video software products is widely used and fairly 'open'.

Oh, and one last thing about using the XBox 360 HD DVD add-on with a PC

When it's used with a PC the limitation of 720p or 1080i disappears.

If your (HDCP) graphics card can output 1080p that's what you'll get on your (HDCP) monitor/TV.
Sadly the HDCP business applies to everything but that's just the way it is with all the high def 'flavours' and retail movie discs.

You'll also get the full range of sound that your PC software can output.

All of the XBox 360 HD DVD add-on 'issues' relate to the XBox 360 base unit and it's processing software.
That was the genius of using a software solution, with a PC & better software none of the so-called 'problems' apply.

It's a fantastic little unit and incredible value.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 May 2007 @ 4:47

502.5.2007 5:05

Originally posted by hughjars:
Absolutely zippy.

I just wonder where these guys are coming from sometimes.

Not only are they factually incorrect in claiming VC-1 is little used but for some odd reason they discount it's use (which they mention) as a movie codec (which is being used more and more).

On the one hand some want to claim Microsoft are 'the evil empire' and yet on the other they've apparantly "been mugged" cos one of their most successful video software products is widely used and fairly 'open'.

Oh, and one last thing about using the XBox 360 HD DVD add-on with a PC

When it's used with a PC the limitation of 720p or 1080i disappears.

If your (HDCP) graphics card can output 1080p that's what you'll get on your (HDCP) monitor/TV.
Sadly the HDCP business applies to everything but that's just the way it is with all the high def 'flavours' and retail movie discs.

You'll also get the full range of sound that your PC software can output.

All of the XBox 360 HD DVD add-on 'issues' relate to the XBox 360 base unit and it's processing software.
That was the genius of using a software solution, with a PC & better software none of the so-called 'problems' apply.

It's a fantastic little unit and incredible value.
I thought HDCP has been bypassed already...mmmm

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

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512.5.2007 6:42

Hey hughie:

From here: http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/index.cfm



Salesrank of top 10. Blu-ray is blue. HD-DVD is black.

Truth hurts, eh? You can see the HD-DVD results from the big buy day on April 16.

Just wait until May 22, when Blu-ray releases the following titles:

Apocalypto May 22, 2007
Closer May 22, 2007
Flags of Our Fathers May 22, 2007
Freedom Writers May 22, 2007
Letters from Iwo Jima May 22, 2007
Mission Impossible May 22, 2007
Mission Impossible II May 22, 2007
Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest May 22, 2007
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl May 22, 2007

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 May 2007 @ 6:45

522.5.2007 7:53
pigfister
Inactive

Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:
I thought HDCP has been bypassed already...mmmm
but the keys can be changed and if the firmware is not applied to current players future media will be blocked and unavailable, where as all HD-DVD players have a net connection Blu-ray players do not and cannot be so readily updated, this kinnda sucks as recently sony updated their dvd DRM ARccOS that failed to play on dvd players, and then had the audacity to tell ppl to contact the players manufacturers and found that even their own dvd players wouldn't play back the movies. and the drm's in music sony love to throw down our throats that cripple our interoperability because they are angry that apple have a large market share because the ipod is trendy and the sony mp3 is overpriced with a pitifully small hard drive and looks god dam ugly, DRM is now being used as a competitive economic weapon -- not as an anti-piracy tool.! then there is sony CLEFIA that sony want to force onto us all!

with Blu-ray only there is another hidden danger in the form of BD+ with spdc it can disable a player remotly a player or entire line of players if the media company so wishes if they are deemed bad(hacked keys)

business week

Originally posted by business week:
STRANGLEHOLD ON CONTENT. Even more extreme is a scheme called BD+ that deals with the problem of what to do when someone cracks the encryption scheme. The players can automatically download new crypto if the old one is broken. But there's an ominous feature buried in this so-called protection mechanism: If a particular brand of player is cryptographically "compromised," the studio can remotely disable all of the affected players. In other words, if some hacker halfway across the globe cracks Sony's software, Sony can shut down my DVD player across the Net.
why is sony blu ray a bad thing, well sony or MPAA whatever you want to call them want to charge you as much as possible as often as possible and will crush all that stand in their way if we let them! xcp was the start of the underhand tactics used by sony on consumers and bd+ is no different.

the sales of Blu-ray films are false because of the Blu-ray coupons that are allowing ppl to purchase a film for as little as $8.
with all the DRM and the success and price of dvd's (new dvd's from 8) expect this apparently better DRM crippled technology to fail, as ppl wont want to purchase all new hobbled equipment just to watch a film. HDCP HDMI SONY MPAA ftl
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 May 2007 @ 8:01

532.5.2007 9:19
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by Baccusboy:
Hey hughie: Truth hurts, eh?
- What "truth"?

The "truth" that once again you have run away, the "truth" that, true to type, you have singularly failed to even attempt to back up your previous statements and have ignored every point made rebutting your previous half-understood nonsense and FUD?

That kind of "truth" just makes me roll my eyes & laugh.....but it would have to be a bit more funny than that to actually make me laugh enough to "hurt".

There's a "truth" in all of this alright and cherry-picked graphs (laughably over a 20-something day period) really miss the point by a mile.

The "truth" is that for 3 million supposed BD players/PS3s out there the movie disc sales they have generated (approx 1.2 million sales) are rather pathetic compared to the 250,000 HD DVD's performance (approx 998,000 sales).

BD execs really ought to be worried about that - particularly as HD DVD stand-alone sales continue to do well and as we can see with the april Neilson figures the gap is closing once again.
(movie disc sales were 60:40 in BD's favour in April).
Not very impressive afterall.

HD DVD stand-alone sales continue to be miles ahead of BD's.....in fact as a proportion BD stand-alones are a minute fraction of the BD total.
BD is to all intents and purposes a PS3 propriatary format now.

The PS3 effect has been and gone, they cannot launch again.
The movie disc sales gap opened (only a fool would have expected no effect at all) but is now closing up again.
Any long term look at the indicators shows total sales are very close and the short-term gap BD had opened up is now closing.
BD has failed to knock HD DVD out of the market, it has not 'won'.

We see HD DVD prices falling.....and we still have the 3 Chinese HD DVD manufacturers coming later in the year (which, is happening even if the reported Walmart deal falls through).

.....and for those BD fans wishing to slam 'cheapo Chinese' HD DVD players I suggest you look under the covers of your PS3s, Chinese components galore.

I notice you avoided these graphs like the plague -







- Imagine my surprise at you doing that, huh?

No wonder LG & Samsung abandoned their 'BD exclusive' hardware manufacturing stance.


BTW, you know, if you're going to try this ridiculous spinning propaganda business (jayzuss wept, the point of this post of yours was what? Hey Hughie 'ya boo sucks'?) you really ought to try a little harder and attempt a little discussion, try understanding the topic a little, in short try answering points made.

You might also avoid the biased use of content & material that is so easy to check out & reveal you for the selective and manipulating cheer-leading fanboy you so plainly are.

You might also be interested (tho I doubt it) that
HD DVD will have 600 movies available by the end of this year (which is more than BD will have)
(and, rather appealingly for the grown-ups, they won't all be a run of retreaded effect-laden 'action' samey sequels claimed as supposed 'blockbusters' and mainly aimed at the under 25s either).

=============================================================

Zippy.
HDCP like the rest has been cracked or swerved - but only to a point.

My copy of PowerDVD & NvidiaPureDVD aren't HDCP cracked.
But that one isn't such a huge problem right now, many mid/top end graphics cards are ok & with the new Nvidia 8500/8600 range DX10 & HDCP are affordable and easily obtained.
Ditto many new monitors now - and your HD TV should be ok too.

But in principle I agree, it's another layer of cr@p we could do without and which, like all this DRM sh*t is causing unforeseen knock on problems (I know of people complaining their graphics card or monitor is not recognised or the database on a particular website has yet to update and let them do what they have legally paid to do).
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 May 2007 @ 9:53

542.5.2007 15:43

The truth, hugh, is that you are such a fanboy of HD-DVD, you can't even read a graph correctly. ;)

Hugh, thanks for supporting Blu-ray!

The first graph you posted shows that Blu-ray disks are significantly cheaper than HD-DVD. There's even a number at the top to show the prices!

YOU ARE READING IT BACKWARDS!

Originally posted by hughjars:

I notice you avoided these graphs like the plague -







- Imagine my surprise at you doing that, huh?

And the 2nd graph also supports Blu-ray. It's just an overall salesrank average on a large product scale showing thousands of products, so of course the numbers will appear closer -- but still! You supported Blu! You can see that the sales rank of Blu-ray products in that 2nd graph have passed HD-DVD.

You didn't make just one mistake, you made two!

Really, you should read the graphs before you stick your foot in your mouth.... ;)



By the way, Eproductwars just made it a lot easier to see who is winning. They added a new graph to the top to show "who's on top timeline." You can hang your mouse over a spot, and it will give you stats. Notice that HD-DVD looks so bad near the right part of the graph that "ties" are actually given an HD-DVD color!

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/index.cfm
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 May 2007 @ 15:59

552.5.2007 16:03

Press release on the Pioneer $299 Blu-ray drive. Hugh, I thought you were trying to spin this and claim they were only being released in China for $299?:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3...9711429,00.html

563.5.2007 7:00

Most recent Vidscan report:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070502/media_nm/dvd_dc_1

Quote:
High-definition disc sales for the week were 71% Blu-ray Disc and 29% HD DVD, with Blu-ray sales bolstered by the fact that "Museum" was available exclusively on that format.

Reuters/Hollywood Reporter

573.5.2007 9:01
pigfister
Inactive

Originally posted by Baccusboy:
Press release on the Pioneer $299 Blu-ray drive[/b]. Hugh, I thought you were trying to spin this and claim they were only being released in China for $299?:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3...9711429,00.html
ok that is a Blu-ray rom only with dvd & cd writing ability. imo completely pointless as very few pc monitors come with hdcp compatible connections so ALL media WILL be purposely downgraded or if you are using a none hdcp dvi connection the signal will be blocked so why purchase it if you cannot use it as a storage medium?


Originally posted by Baccusboy:
Most recent Vidscan report:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070502/media_nm/dvd_dc_1

Quote:
High-definition disc sales for the week were 71% Blu-ray Disc and 29% HD DVD, with Blu-ray sales bolstered by the fact that "Museum" was available exclusively on that format.

Reuters/Hollywood Reporter

why do ppl keep posting crap like this ffs, hd content barely accounts for a small % of sales, the hd films are selling 30,000 copies over a few weeks, dvd sells average 12+ million worldwide on release day, so WHO is winning the format war exactly, get emotional about politics or the worldwide loss of freedom in the guise of anti-terror laws or government wars for oil and arms deals "GROW UP". unless you have material gain or you invented the dam product blu-ray/hd-dvd just shut the fuck up ffs!
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 May 2007 @ 9:22

583.5.2007 9:38
hughjars
Inactive

Quote:
The truth, hugh, is that you are such a fanboy of HD-DVD, you can't even read a graph correctly.
- I see, so rebutting your idiotic (and often highly ignorant, selective and downright plain wrong) BD flag-waving FUD garbage is being a "fanboy" now is it?
Interesting view.
Not.
Wholly predictable too.

As per what a lot of empty chatter.
But you still run away from answering the point originally raised.

- No sign of those independent reviewers citing the HD DVD 'problems' you claimed I notice;
- no admission that all but 1 of the high def titles held up for damning public criticism were all BD;
- no back-up to your laughable claim that the HD DVD manufacturing process prohibited short-run testing;
- no admission that the XBox 360 HD DVD add-on 'issues' you were pretending to be so bothered about & complain of only relate to it when it's hooked up to the XBox 360 'base unit', and not a PC;
- no recognition that these issues, such as they are, are merely XBox 360 related and do not apply to HD DVD stand-alones;
- no recognition that HD DVD stand-alones continue to outsell BD stand-alones by a huge margin
- and naturally not a shred of evidence that HiDefDigest is the "HD DVD fanboy site" you have libelled them as
(that one really was ludicrously pathetic and ignorant).

In short typical BD shilling, FUD, bias and sheer ignorance of the subject.
In other words the usual patronising condescending nonsense the BD crowd have 'treated' the public to ever since this business started.

Pity the 'hydra' crew have yet to work out just how damaging their typical cr@p has become to their brand.

Quote:
The first graph you posted shows that Blu-ray disks are significantly cheaper than HD-DVD. There's even a number at the top to show the prices!
- How dumb do you have to be to imagine I hadn't noticed what was on the graphs I posted up, hmmmmmm?

Yes you blinkered *person*, it shows that even with the more expensive hybrid discs the BD 'lead' is rather pathetically small and now closing.

Quote:
And the 2nd graph also supports Blu-ray. You supported Blu! You can see that the sales rank of Blu-ray products in that 2nd graph have passed HD-DVD.

You didn't make just one mistake, you made two!
- No, the only one 'mistaken' here is the kind of *silly person* who thinks there ought to be no 'PS3 effect' visible at all.

Like I said before only a fool would have imagined there to have been no PS3 effect whatsoever.

So what does that make you, huh?

I have never said BD movie disc sales do not currently show a lead over HD DVD movie disc sales.

I have said that when one considers the numbers of players of each format supposed to be out there then the BD situation is not very impressive at all, which it isn't.

I have also said the movie disc sales gap opened and is now closing again, which it is.

This is all entirely consistent with what those graphs show.
In terms of total sales there is a small BD lead (approx 1.2 million) when compared to HD DVD sales (approx 998,000).

Feel free to point out anywhere where I have said otherwise.

......and if you honestly are so detached from reality to imagine that really amounts to "you supported Blu!" I suggest you seek medical help pronto.

Quote:
Really, you should read the graphs before you stick your foot in your mouth....
- You really ought to try responding to what is actually written and not what you think was written.

The salient point here is that with 3 million PS3s out there compared to 250,000 HD DVD players the BD movie disc lead is small to the point of woeful - and that lead, such as it is, is shrinking.

BD is entirely reliant upon the PS3 and the facts are that the PS3 is simply not generating the retail movies disc sales in large enough volumes.

HD DVD stand-alones continue to sell well & have a much higher attachment rate, hence the HD DVD retail movie disc sales gap is closing.

Quote:
By the way, Eproductwars just made it a lot easier to see who is winning.
- I'll stick to the Nielson data thanks, it's derived from a much wider range of outlet's sales stats and is reasonably well respected.

They showed 60:40 in april (which was a closing of the 70:30 gap they showed in march/feb).

BTW I saw a (long term member & highly respected) retail trade insider talking about the Amazon "sales rank" on the avforums.

For anyone interested in how it works he said this "Amazon unlike High Street retailers are able to use a selection of marketing skills to "guide" the customer to select certain lines, imagine your looking on Amazon at the Sales Ranking Chart, the following things may not be apparent, but they are factors:

1) Margin, its to Amazon advantage to push products they make the best margin from, therefore titles rankings are increase if they offer higher than the average margin.

2) Availability, why promote something you can't sell straight away, high avalibity either at the Amazon DC, Advantage Partner or supplier will mean the sales ranking will be pumped to increase stock turn.

3) Marketing Support, if you selling marketing packages to suppliers you need to prove they work or they may not support you again, up the sales ranking to ensure high visibility of featured titles to give them a good chance !

I've personally been offered an increase on my titles sales ranking on Amazon if I offer more margin and take out a online marketing package.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 04 May 2007 @ 9:07

594.5.2007 8:06

EVERYBODY!!! edit all offensive comments out of your posts ASAP like twit or whatever or you deal with me! NOW!!!!

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