AfterDawn: Tech news

Modded Xbox 360s banned from XBL

Written by Andre Yoskowitz (Google+) @ 18 May 2007 9:42 User comments (194)

Modded Xbox 360s banned from XBL As many Afterdawn users found out the hard way this week, Microsoft has begun banning modified Xbox 360 consoles from being able to access Xbox Live. A Microsoft spokesperson described the move as "an important part of our efforts to try and maintain a fair gaming environment for the large majority of gamers that play by the rules".
Microsoft also said it was banning by unit rather than by Live account. Anyone using a modified console to connect to Live should recieve error code ("Status Code: Z: 8015 - 190D").

"These users will not have their account automatically banned from Live, but they will no longer be able to access the service from the console they modified," Microsoft said.

The company has "a no tolerance policy towards inappropriate behaviour like hacking or cheating", and believes that "this topic is more important than ever given the recent release of the Halo 3 beta".

"We have stated in the past that customers can only enjoy access to the Xbox Live community through the use of a genuine, unmodified, Xbox console and we will continue to enforce this rule to ensure the integrity of our service, the protection of our partners and the benefits of our users,"
a statement on the global community Gamerscoreblog concluded.

Be reminded that Microsoft tried the same steps with the original Xbox which forced modders to create a switch that would allow the gamer to disable all modified features before accessing Live.

Posts by modders at Xbox-Scene.com have implied that new mods with added security precautions are in the works, so it seems like a battle is upcoming.

Source:
GI.biz

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194 user comments

118.5.2007 9:49

ouch that sucks m$is being an a$$

218.5.2007 9:57

what about people who just like jetpacks, who arent cheating?

318.5.2007 10:13

418.5.2007 10:13

I had a feeling this day would come, thats why I had second thoughts about modding mine.

518.5.2007 10:14

also.. people without modded consoles are being banned.

mines in the shop right now.. but its not modded.

my modded console has never had a ethernet cord plugged in and probably wont until XBMC 360 comes out :D

618.5.2007 10:15

Originally posted by kaosX:
also.. people without modded consoles are being banned.

mines in the shop right now.. but its not modded.

my modded console has never had a ethernet cord plugged in and probably wont until XBMC 360 comes out :D
Why people without mods?

718.5.2007 10:40

Bad business on M$'s part. Why the hell alienate customer's who are PAYING to use live?? Who cares if my granny is playing a backup of "Lets learn to Sew," she is still paying the $50 premium or whatever it is to sew with her friends. Sh!t I only have a BA in business admin and know better then doing something like this. Retards.

818.5.2007 10:43

Quote:

Why people without mods?
not sure... but people on other sites, including xbox.com are making the claim.

and iono stang.. i kinda like them banning people with modded consoles... its too easy for them to cheat, as they are already doing in gear of war from what ive read.

Live! should be a place where legitimate people with legitimate copies are playing, thats part of the reason why i pay for the service.
if people cheat with their friends and they are all cheating only together in their group then fine.. but when i have to leave multiple rooms just to find one where people arent glitching or cheating, i get a little pissed.

i got no beef with their decision, as long as im not banned with a legit console that is.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 18 May 2007 @ 10:47

918.5.2007 10:50

I have a modded 360, but have never taken it online. I cannot personally comment about the level of cheating some moron's use, but I see where you are coming from. I played on kai once and everybody was cheating, that killed it totally for me. When I saw this article I didnt really take into consideration that people cheat, I just saw it as M$'s feeble attempt to stop piracy, since it is obvious they cannot stop firmware hacks.



1018.5.2007 10:51

man this sucks, ps3 looking better all the time

1118.5.2007 10:56

I have 4 unmodded Xbox 360's (why? not sure-was thinking about modding 1 for fun-like the Xbox 1-have 3 soft-modded-1 Xbox 360 for my grandson's birthday in August). Before I heard of the ban-decided last night to update all the Xbox's to the newest
Kernel-had no problems whatsoever with my single profile on 4 different Xbox 360's updating and even down-loaded a few games on each. Even updated my 1 HD-DVD player on all consoles.

M$ will have major problems if they have actually banned unmodded Xbox 360's. I intend to check my 4 this week-end to make sure that there are no problems.

1218.5.2007 11:09

Ouch....Damm that gotta hurt !

1318.5.2007 11:57

This is how I look at it I modded my Ps2 and my Xbox b4 for personal reasons but I never took them online. If you take them online you take the risk of stuff like this happening which I'm fine with. My 360 is unmodded and It's going to stay like that cuz I like playing online, If someone has an upper hand on me cuz of cheating BAN THEM! Good job Microsoft. If you want to buy a Ps3 go buy a Ps3 you think there going to invite hacking and cheating over there.

1418.5.2007 12:28

I am not a gamer but, what do you think of this. You know how anabolic steriods are banned. Well I always thought they should have a special olympics for those that are on the juice so to speak. That way we can see what man is really capable of. So you see my point . Why doesn't slick willy ( Mr Bill Gates of course )let it run and see what comes out. Hacked firmware can only improve the product, lets face it the definition of hacking is to take something and improve upon it.

1518.5.2007 12:52

Originally posted by joe777:
Hacked firmware can only improve the product, lets face it the definition of hacking is to take something and improve upon it.
dunno dude... hacked firmware = backups and piracy, not homebrew.

if anything, its slowed downt he homebrew scene, because the companies are focusing on dvd firmware chips instead.

1618.5.2007 13:17

Hate m$ sometimes , i think this was a bad move in some way as they may lose the console war for this

1718.5.2007 13:59

By the company that brought you WindowsME 2.0!!

In A.D. 2101, war was beginning.

What happen ?
- Someone set up us teh bans.
We get signal.
- What !

Status Code: Z: 8015 - 190D
- It's you !!
How are you Micosoftians
- All your xbox are belong to us!

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 18 May 2007 @ 14:00

1818.5.2007 14:11
duckNrun
Inactive

I agree that cheaters need to be banned-- or relegated off to a 'cheater' server that is plainly labeled as such.

I hate it when you game and you just know that somebody out there has hacked the game to give them an unfair advantage. It's really pathetic actually that someone has so low self esteem that they have to go online, cheat at a game, just so they can look themselves in the mirror every morning and not think 'worthless POS'

sad sad sad

1918.5.2007 14:38

HA, HA, This is the best day ever. This makes me want to buy another 360. Now i don't have worry about people cheating. I was really worried about this with the launch of Halo3. Good job microsoft!!!!

2018.5.2007 14:58

Smart move, same time as Halo 3 beta. I thought microsoft would understand and not ban ppl from live. But if they wanna lose bunch of people on live.

2118.5.2007 15:24
knuttdogg
Inactive

WOW! Everybody has a valid point and view; however this is my feeling on the banning. If M$ is worried about having this piracy free network, then ban all the modded units and that will stop that. But just think, XBL memberships have tripled over the past Year or so. That means that ppl have purchased the unit and the service. What they do with it when they get it home, is their business, M$ got their money. Now game sales may suffer a little from the back up point, but how many games have your kids F&^% up and you have to replace them at $60+ a unit. (That's why it works). I have a purchased copy of all my games and a backup, because I have kids that don't care about things like some adults.

I don't condone piracy; however we parents that spend thousands on game systems and games have to have a way to protect our investments.

Secondly, only one out of every 15 players online may have a backup unit (as I was told).

XBL will definitely go down in numbers after the banning. W8 and C

2218.5.2007 15:28
26r0cK
Inactive

Hmmm...i thought wat made the original xbox as big as it was was being able to modd it...and maybe it gave xbox fans a reason to buy a xbox360 because ppl thought they could do the same and still getting all the same benifits. Sounds like MS doesnt want more sales and Bill Gates dont need your money because its nuthing more then just pocket change to him. If PS3 isnt like this then im heading to Sony.

2318.5.2007 15:36

Originally posted by knuttdogg:

XBL will definitely go down in numbers after the banning. W8 and C
and i say goodbye and farewell!

2418.5.2007 15:41
ThaJazz
Inactive

instead of buying the games rent them from gamefly.save a bunch of money that way.and when the games get a little old buy them at a discount.no its not the same as having a backup but its an option.

2518.5.2007 15:51

Quote:
A Microsoft spokesperson described the move as "an important part of our efforts to try and maintain a fair gaming environment for the large majority of gamers that play by the rules".
Just a fancy way of saying we are trying to stop piracy. :)

This whole article is the reason i have moved away from consoles and stayed with PC's cause with PC's you can mod them and that is allowed. Even with Microsoft products :)

2618.5.2007 17:20

I have witnessed a few players online that have modded systems and they clearly had the advantage with their cheats or hacks. But I agree with a lot of the post already. Once you purchase a item its yours and you should and do have the right to do with it as you please. This article just shows how much dictatorship Billiam Gates have due to how much $$$$$$ that mofo got. If you bought the system XBL and the original games and want to back up what you got thats your right to protect your investment. The problem is just as people complain about Sony forcing Blu-ray on you Billiam is forcing you to DRM, repeat buys of the same product(hence backing up games) and etc.... I could go on for days with that crap. All these major companies are the same money and power is the ultimate goal. Cheaters should be banned. Modders, customizers, and people who want to keep their games in mint condition by backing up and those that dont want to upgrade to some crappy firmware that makes their system do things they dont like should have a choice to what they want.

2718.5.2007 20:57
ThaJazz
Inactive

when it is all said and done microsoft what you to buy games from the store that is how they make money.it is the business part that nobody seem to undertsand.iam not defending microsoft but i do understand where they come from.after all they are taking a hit on each console sold that is not our fault but somebody gotta pay.

2818.5.2007 23:06

I have no sympathy for anyone that's dumbass enought to go on live while using the modified chip,your loosers,just be thankful it's only the console that gets banned nough said


EDIT: Actually it aint enough said so here's some more ...lol..you can attempt to justify with whatever lame excuses with whatever you like in the end there's still no need or defence for using the mod chip on live,you want to use a mod chip online go make your own live service with no restrictions so that your all on a level playing field but that would put you at a disadvantage would'nt it coz the field is level again,do you hear that it's the worlds smallest violin and it's playing just for you loosers lmao

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 18 May 2007 @ 23:24

2919.5.2007 2:35

Quotes: "A Microsoft spokesperson described the move as 'an important part of our efforts to try and maintain a fair gaming environment for the large majority of gamers that play by the rules'."

Hence, I must say, why I don't bother to play online gaming anymore. As fun as it was back then in the past to play Starcraft, Counterstrike and Warcraft 3, it was exceptionally annoying to get trounced by annoying little expletives who simply use hacks to gain an upper hand (especially those with microphones and you can't silence them!) yet they hardly admit of anything with sheer ignorance and arrogance for that matter about it when caught although yes, the online service was free; however, if I was paying for a service like XBL, I'd expect quality control and regulation or problems minimized to a nominal degree so I wouldn't be self-conscientiously aware of such a nuisance. Yes, hacks and cheats will forever be attached to gaming when played, but I don't want to suffer the consequences of hack kiddies running around.

On a side note, I feel like playing SC/BW ever since the pending rumor of SC2... too bad someone literally sat on my copy.

3019.5.2007 4:48

im sory but im sick of hearing everyone bash ppl with modded systems. the only reason most of u didnt mod is cuz ur a tard and cant follow directions. o well ppl got ban'd have fun playing on live with less ppl. and for cheating how the fuck do ppl cheat? did they rehack the game and put in there own cheats i dont think so. o they cheated cuz they have a cloned copy of the game WOW. boo fucking hoo get over u lil piss ants.

3119.5.2007 7:12

in the ps2 modding days there was a tool that let you change your machine address if you got banned. the result was they stopped banning people cause it was just a mouse click away from being a new ps2 and getting back online anyway.

3219.5.2007 7:34

Anyone care to direct me to where one can learn about modding an Xbox360.

3319.5.2007 7:35
imacamper
Inactive

Originally posted by knuttdogg:
Now game sales may suffer a little from the back up point, but how many games have your kids F&^% up and you have to replace them at $60+ a unit. (That's why it works). I have a purchased copy of all my games and a backup, because I have kids that don't care about things like some adults.
I am not disputing your right to make backups. But regarding your children's lack of respect for their things, you could do what I do and make my kids pay for what they F&^% up. I know, depending upon the age of your children, they might not be able to pay $60, but you can make them pay in other ways (extra chores, loss of priviledges, etc.). It will teach them to respect their (and your) things. Why take care of anything if Dad will "just buy me a new one"?
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 19 May 2007 @ 7:40

3419.5.2007 7:59

The whole point of consoles and online gaming was to put everyone on an even footing. This is great news.

3519.5.2007 8:49
dinger123
Inactive

You are allowed to backup your game so i think they are just being the big bullies again,i back mine up and keep the originals,so now ill just cancel my acount at the end.Just like all the others that have been banned i expect.So it looks like a ps3 for me.....

3619.5.2007 9:33

"Once you purchase a item its yours and you should and do have the right to do with it as you please."

Guess what? You can still do this. But just because you want to mod your Box doesn't mean MS has to let you on their network. It's not mandatory for playing the games, and you are not entitled to the network either.

Sorry that you guys don't get every single thing you want. Such is life.

3719.5.2007 9:42

I'm sorry im not very familiar with xBox360 (i dont have it) but are there any cheating systems like codebraker on PS2 or hacks that are loaded through mod chips? as far as I'm aware there is only drive flashing to enable "backups" and no real Modchip (i'm not counting those that imitate flashing) to run homebrew software.
so .. what kind of cheats are you talking about?

So MS (asuming i'm correct) just bans only ppl that pirate or use backups/flash the console ... no big deal :D PC pirates know: whana plau online get an original, dont whana - 'backups' work just fine. so I dont see no tragedy in this.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 19 May 2007 @ 9:46

3819.5.2007 9:46

IMHO, Microsoft is making a huge mistake; Just from observation, less people use live then have modded their 360. What they should be doing is 2 fold. Any mod that has an off switch, should only be "banned" or blocked while it's turned on and detected as "homebrew" bios. secondly, those boxes with mods turned on should be relegated to separate servers, though I wouldn't call them "cheater's servers"; not everyone with a mod is cheating in-game. It shouldn't even be apparent to the end user that they're cordioned off from the main population; just dump them in a segregated server pool .

3919.5.2007 9:54

Originally posted by dinger123:
You are allowed to backup your game so i think they are just being the big bullies again,i back mine up and keep the originals,so now ill just cancel my acount at the end.Just like all the others that have been banned i expect.So it looks like a ps3 for me.....
What makes you think Sony won't do the same thing? You can bet your ass they will.

4019.5.2007 9:58

Hi , is it possible to reflash your xbox360 with original software and play genuine 360 games on xbox live?

4119.5.2007 10:13

Originally posted by scorpNZ:
I have no sympathy for anyone that's dumbass enought to go on live while using the modified chip,your loosers,just be thankful it's only the console that gets banned nough said


EDIT: Actually it aint enough said so here's some more ...lol..you can attempt to justify with whatever lame excuses with whatever you like in the end there's still no need or defence for using the mod chip on live,you want to use a mod chip online go make your own live service with no restrictions so that your all on a level playing field but that would put you at a disadvantage would'nt it coz the field is level again,do you hear that it's the worlds smallest violin and it's playing just for you loosers lmao

===================================================================
Well well MR sheeple lap up and enjoy the crap they are feeding you, the whole point of a mod is to add extra value to the console and buying new crap games only lets them poo out more crap games so when can fully test a game before plopping down 60 it helps,altho I have found buying used at 10-30 a pop is more effiant from that stand point.

Also MS has not made any cheat devices for the 360 if they made it and controlled it online and gave SP gamers that option the mod chip would look less appealing.

Funny thing abotu live you pay for it they should make it if you are caught chaetings that s instant goodbye but if you are caught with a modded system thats a "renewed subscription" :X

4219.5.2007 10:25

Quote:
Originally posted by scorpNZ:
I have no sympathy for anyone that's dumbass enought to go on live while using the modified chip,your loosers,just be thankful it's only the console that gets banned nough said


EDIT: Actually it aint enough said so here's some more ...lol..you can attempt to justify with whatever lame excuses with whatever you like in the end there's still no need or defence for using the mod chip on live,you want to use a mod chip online go make your own live service with no restrictions so that your all on a level playing field but that would put you at a disadvantage would'nt it coz the field is level again,do you hear that it's the worlds smallest violin and it's playing just for you loosers lmao

===================================================================
Well well MR sheeple lap up and enjoy the crap they are feeding you, the whole point of a mod is to add extra value to the console and buying new crap games only lets them poo out more crap games so when can fully test a game before plopping down 60 it helps,altho I have found buying used at 10-30 a pop is more effiant from that stand point.

Also MS has not made any cheat devices for the 360 if they made it and controlled it online and gave SP gamers that option the mod chip would look less appealing.

Funny thing abotu live you pay for it they should make it if you are caught chaetings that s instant goodbye but if you are caught with a modded system thats a "renewed subscription" :X

:D like I said in my reasoning above :D its only targeted at backups/pirates :D so there would be no point if you ban them permamently :D it not like flashed versions Cheat :D they only alow to play while not paying for the game (well and backups ofcourse :D) So once you payup yore a good customer again :D

4319.5.2007 10:58

DancingWD
ya in this move MS can annoy backupers and get money from them too if they don't prema ban them.

Only cheaters disrupt enough to earn a prema ban.

SP cheating on the 360 is as annoying as on the Xbox..I really wish someone would hack the damn thing already and sale a normal cheat device.

I am a odd one(can uuu tell?=^^=) I like re balancing to fun not so much god mode/inf HP I would rather loosen up some of the restrictions and have fun!

4419.5.2007 11:58

I think some of you have it all wrong. The firmware hack does NOT allow for cheating on XBL. The content on the discs is signed. It won't boot if any of the content has been modified. So, how 'bout a valid reason to call hackers pieces of sh1t.....

Also, as far as "unworthy" traffic being taken up on another server, XBL is the only one available for the 360. I think that's were MS has it all wrong, they want to control everything on the 360 including all network traffic passing through it and as such doesn't allow for any alternatives. You can say, well, why not use a game tunneling service? Well, the 360 has a ping limiter implemented in most games and not all games have system link.

On a side note, hopefully this will wake the hackers from their sleep and they'll find a useful exploit on the 360 which will lead to homebrew.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 19 May 2007 @ 12:07

4519.5.2007 12:43
lyd
Inactive

is there a mod chip so microsoft cant tell the xbox 360 is not modded
i know somones 360 thats modded and never been baned yet

4619.5.2007 13:32

i just have one question about all of this. I got banned from live on my xbox but i have 2 360. if i take my hard drive with the live account and put it in the other one will that one also be banned. M$ says their only banning consoles so if i play live with real games on the originl 360 they cant ban it, right?

4719.5.2007 13:35

Originally posted by OMEGASA:
i just have one question about all of this. I got banned from live on my xbox but i have 2 360. if i take my hard drive with the live account and put it in the other one will that one also be banned. M$ says their only banning consoles so if i play live with real games on the originl 360 they cant ban it, right?
In cases like this 1 360 for moding to play backups and 1 for online its abotu the only way to do it.

4819.5.2007 13:58

ya but what if the modded one is the one you go online with and its the one that got banned. if you take the hard drive from the banned one and put it into a unbanned one is there some sort of code they have loaded onto the harddrive that will ban the other 360.

4919.5.2007 14:05

I think the bans are acording to the embeded serial number of xBox 360 (I think). It's a good thing MS just bans modBox's :D not bricks them :D that would be a laugh :D

5019.5.2007 14:45

This is the only thing I'm going to say. The rest, you guys can whine all you want.

1. Microsoft XBox Live Security Team did this for Piracy and for Exploitation.

2. The reprocussions of these mod'd 360's are clearly your own fault. Its in the EULA and the "Shrinkwrap Agreement" you signed up with on XBox Live to not reverse engineer, modify, blah blah blah, anything.

3. With as much console exploitation as I've done, and as much gaming hacks that I've worked on, this is minor. There are other networks where people already go with mod'd 360's anyway, so stop whining.

4. To the remark that has "Children" and "Modchips" in the same statement, you need to think twice. How many kids do you think are capable of using a soldering iron correctly, much less not defacing a CPU? Few. That's all on that.

5. Let them stay off XBox Live. They signed up for it, they got what they paid for, they broke the rules, such is life.

-TurkReno

5119.5.2007 15:00

so what your saying is if I take a memory card and take my xbox live profile from the banned modded xbox 360's harddrive and put the profile onto the harddrive of an untouched original unmodded xbox 360's harddrive i will still be able to play live with real games and they can't ban that console. the whole thing here is that they know I have a modded 360 and i play online so if i go online on the other 360 will they ban that one too, even thought its totally legal and non modded

5219.5.2007 15:45

I was thinkin about modding mine but now that i found thi i dont no

5319.5.2007 16:14

Quote:
:D reasoning :D pirates :D flashed versions :D backups :D) good customer :D

5419.5.2007 17:08

Originally posted by itrytomod:
I was thinkin about modding mine but now that i found thi i dont no
LOL something as stupid as live would stop you?? Here is an idea....get some friends, some extra controllers....no need for live now eh?


5519.5.2007 17:53

Quote:
[quote=zippyDSM]

Funny thing abotu live you pay for it they should make it if you are caught chaetings that s instant goodbye but if you are caught with a modded system thats a "renewed subscription" :X
I think you missed this sentence in the above article
(quote)
"Microsoft also said it was banning by UNIT rather than by Live account. Anyone using a modified console to connect to Live should recieve error code ("Status Code: Z: 8015 - 190D")."






Quote:
[quote=koolcat]im sory but im sick of hearing everyone bash ppl with modded systems. the only reason most of u didnt mod is cuz ur a tard and cant follow directions. o well ppl got ban'd have fun playing on live with less ppl. and for cheating how the fuck do ppl cheat? did they rehack the game and put in there own cheats i dont think so. o they cheated cuz they have a cloned copy of the game WOW. boo fucking hoo get over u lil piss ants
If a modchip can't be used online to get unlimited ammo,1 shot 1 kill etc then what are you so defensive about, if a modded console is in no way able to give a player an unfair advantage then honestly do you really think anyone would give a toss if your console was modded or not. Can't say i've seen any evidence of a mod chip on xbox live, pity i can't say the same for sony you know the drill ultra high jumps to positions that can't be got normally or jumping across the map,gamers in prone position slithering along the ground at break neck speed ,it's reasons like that i have no sympathy for cheaters and the same goes for others *capeche* and was it really necessary for me to even point that little point out to you lil piss ant.. lmao
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 19 May 2007 @ 18:25

5619.5.2007 18:19

That isnt here or there though. Microsoft did this purely as an attempt to stop piracy. I know some legitamite modders in the 360 scene, they dont report people cheating like on the xbox. M$ did this purely because they are losing the battle against piracy. The ironic thing is that all these "pirates" are paying to use the service, now they arnt allowed to use what they rightfully paid for! Good job M$, you are as retarded as I have always thought.



5719.5.2007 18:34

Originally posted by svtstang:
That isnt here or there though. Microsoft did this purely as an attempt to stop piracy. I know some legitamite modders in the 360 scene, they dont report people cheating like on the xbox. M$ did this purely because they are losing the battle against piracy. The ironic thing is that all these "pirates" are paying to use the service, now they arnt allowed to use what they rightfully paid for! Good job M$, you are as retarded as I have always thought.
see my post above you also misread the article now who were you saying the retard was??


Majority of you still don't get it YOU DO NOT OWN THE GAME,when you purchase the game you have only purchased the liscence to use said game nothing more nothing less,same goes for xp or vista or..... get the picture *winks*

5819.5.2007 18:55

Did i call you a retard? Are you a M$ exec? Since the answer to those are no, id slow your pace down and not take shots at me. Your post was all over the place, sorry if I dont have the wit to keep up with your highly developed "intellect".

Quote:
if a modded console is in no way able to give a player an unfair advantage then honestly do you really think anyone would give a toss if your console was modded or not.
Yes!!! The f**king company who just banned thousands of legitimate accounts! In the hands of a nerd with 0 life, yes it is possible to cheat. Is this the reason for the bans? Sh!t no! You are naive to think that M$ did this to keep an even playing field, they did this to punish people who have every right in this damn world to mod the $500 piece of hardware they bought to their liking.

You think it was a smart business decision to suspend the accounts of thousands of people because they have a modified system? "Hey Bill, our games suck a$$ and are overpriced, people are modding their systems to preserve their investment. Why dont we ban them from live after we get their $50 to use Live and not let them dl all the goodies from Live Arcade? This will be a hit! The value of our common stock will increase!" RETARDED!

BTW I understand how intellectual property as well as copyright work...thanks for the brilliant synopsis on it though......*winks*
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 19 May 2007 @ 18:55


5919.5.2007 20:12

Quote:
Did i call you a retard? Are you a M$ exec? Since the answer to those are no, id slow your pace down and not take shots at me. Your post was all over the place, sorry if I dont have the wit to keep up with your highly developed "intellect".

if a modded console is in no way able to give a player an unfair advantage then honestly do you really think anyone would give a toss if your console was modded or not.

Yes!!! The f**king company who just banned thousands of legitimate accounts! In the hands of a nerd with 0 life, yes it is possible to cheat. Is this the reason for the bans? Sh!t no! You are naive to think that M$ did this to keep an even playing field, they did this to punish people who have every right in this damn world to mod the $500 piece of hardware they bought to their liking.

You think it was a smart business decision to suspend the accounts of thousands of people because they have a modified system? "Hey Bill, our games suck a$$ and are overpriced, people are modding their systems to preserve their investment. Why dont we ban them from live after we get their $50 to use Live and not let them dl all the goodies from Live Arcade? This will be a hit! The value of our common stock will increase!" RETARDED!

BTW I understand how intellectual property as well as copyright work...thanks for the brilliant synopsis on it though......*winks*
Of course you did'nt call me a retard if you had you would've known it,just take my reply to it with a sense of humour,i guess leaving :p out was'nt such a good idea eh...lol..

OK lets get back to what i'm goin on about,below is the second paragraph from the article that started this thread (my referrance to who would give a toss if you used a modchip was referring to other gamers not MS),the way i'm read'n it says the handle is not banned therefore transfer of handle to a non modded console will mean no new subs is necessary ???.

Microsoft also said it was banning by unit rather than by Live account. Anyone using a modified console to connect to Live should recieve error code ("Status Code: Z: 8015 - 190D").


Now lets get back to mod chipped boxes and people kick'n up a fuss for getting the console banned from live,first off it's common knowledge attempts to get on live will be automatic banning, hell i don't have a modded xbox at this time but even i know it's fool hardy,so if one is not intending to cheat then there should be no probs with not using it period,ever here the saying "me thinks you protest too much",if ya aint herd it, basicly means they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar and now are crying foul,which is why i have no sympathy
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 19 May 2007 @ 21:09

6019.5.2007 20:36

Alright we are on the same page then, there is no logical reason for a discussion about video games to get ugly! Im only here to offer my opinion as well as help when needed, no need to make enemies.

Quote:
the way i'm read'n it says the handle is not banned therefore transfer of handle to a non modded console will mean no new subs is necessary ???
To begin with, this has nothing to do with you or your opinion. My opinion is this: why should a person who threw down the $400-500 to buy the console, then have to deal with being banned for modding the system they own because they decided to mod the system for whatever reason they modded it for? Lets get things clear, just because someone flashed their drive or installed a chip does not mean they get everything for free. Of course there are pirates out their, but Live is a different story. People pay a yearly fee regardless if their console is modded, and pay more $$$$$ to get old school game from Live Arcade. Why alienate these consumers due to their decision to mod their console? That is just ridiculous. Regardless of if a consumer is using a modded console or not, they are still 100% legitamitly paying for the Live service and spending more cash on Arcade games, what is the benefit of banning them? Ya ya I know piracy is bad, but the same pirates are responsible for boosting M$'s numbers via paying for the Live service. Modded or not, a poor decision on the part of M$. Nobody in their right mind will purchase another system just to play against some dude name Arvin across the world.




6119.5.2007 21:33

Quote:
Alright we are on the same page then, there is no logical reason for a discussion about video games to get ugly! Im only here to offer my opinion as well as help when needed, no need to make enemies.



To begin with, this has nothing to do with you or your opinion. My opinion is this: why should a person who threw down the $400-500 to buy the console, then have to deal with being banned for modding the system they own because they decided to mod the system for whatever reason they modded it for? Lets get things clear, just because someone flashed their drive or installed a chip does not mean they get everything for free. Of course there are pirates out their, but Live is a different story. People pay a yearly fee regardless if their console is modded, and pay more $$$$$ to get old school game from Live Arcade. Why alienate these consumers due to their decision to mod their console? That is just ridiculous. Regardless of if a consumer is using a modded console or not, they are still 100% legitamitly paying for the Live service and spending more cash on Arcade games, what is the benefit of banning them? Ya ya I know piracy is bad, but the same pirates are responsible for boosting M$'s numbers via paying for the Live service. Modded or not, a poor decision on the part of M$. Nobody in their right mind will purchase another system just to play against some dude name Arvin across the world.
OK definatly on the same page..lol..

I've just tried to look thru the xbox 1 manual to find the EULA but i'm stuffed if i can see what i'm looking for ,basicly i would'nt be suprised to find we don't actually own them ,the way i figure it all we've done is purchased hardware and the liscence to use that hardware in un-modified form,as soon as that console is tampered with we pretty much broke the contract this also applies to Sony,nintendo etc ,it's the only reason i can think of as by rights MS being able to detect hardware changes, should be able to unlock a previously banned console if that console uses the original chip by turning off the mod chip,i personally see microsoft using piracy as an exscuse to ban modded consoles is more a red herring
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 19 May 2007 @ 21:39

6220.5.2007 0:26

What the whole problem here is that M$ must think that were just renting the consoles from then, not buying them. Bill gates needs to wake up and see that everyone doesnt have a millian dollars to blow a day on games or consoles or fancy cakes or whatever. If I had to go to collage and work at a crappy $8/h job I would try and find anyway to save money on having fun. Also what right does he have to use the internet and the electricity, that we pay for, to sneak into our houses secretly, using the xbox live we also paid for, alter the programing of the consoles we bought, and if someone has changed the laws on personal property and didnt tell anyone, im pretty sure that he's countering our "illegal" actions with more illegal action, which must cancel each other out. Just one last note, if he bans everyone from using live them when the actual copy of Halo 3 comes out, theres going to be a 50% drop in pergected sales becasue everyone with banned live accounts will just go out and rent it becuase it doesnt stop people from system linking

6320.5.2007 1:41

I have been banned, Halo 3 beta i think it was, went on it and shortly after disconnnected, sames happened with my mate and my little brother, so theres no way to get round this if yours has been banned?
Also, i can not use my 360 on lan games now, wen trying to detect my brothers 360, it realises its on but doesnt find the game, makes you think wat eva microsft have done, it must be something to do with disableing the network card inside???

6420.5.2007 4:50
samuels
Inactive

Originally posted by TurkReno:
This is the only thing I'm going to say. The rest, you guys can whine all you want.

1. Microsoft XBox Live Security Team did this for Piracy and for Exploitation.

2. The reprocussions of these mod'd 360's are clearly your own fault. Its in the EULA and the "Shrinkwrap Agreement" you signed up with on XBox Live to not reverse engineer, modify, blah blah blah, anything.

3. With as much console exploitation as I've done, and as much gaming hacks that I've worked on, this is minor. There are other networks where people already go with mod'd 360's anyway, so stop whining.

4. To the remark that has "Children" and "Modchips" in the same statement, you need to think twice. How many kids do you think are capable of using a soldering iron correctly, much less not defacing a CPU? Few. That's all on that.

5. Let them stay off XBox Live. They signed up for it, they got what they paid for, they broke the rules, such is life.

-TurkReno
OK....what about countries that are LEGALLY allowed to install-modify their consoles,either flash or modchip,think about it,if flashing your drive is illegal in your country,what do you think M$ do every time they do a drive repair??.i don't use XBL,but IMO i think M$ have shot themselves in the foot,and stand to lose big $$$ and heaps of account closedowns,and not by M$,but by the customer,where i am,modifying our consoles is completely legal,and we are allowed one back up of our legally owned game,not all are cheaters,pirates.

6520.5.2007 6:03

Quote:
OK....what about countries that are LEGALLY allowed to install-modify their consoles,either flash or modchip,think about it,if flashing your drive is illegal in your country,what do you think M$ do every time they do a drive repair??.i don't use XBL,but IMO i think M$ have shot themselves in the foot,and stand to lose big $$$ and heaps of account closedowns,and not by M$,but by the customer,where i am,modifying our consoles is completely legal,and we are allowed one back up of our legally owned game,not all are cheaters,pirates.
Right, so you opened your console (there goes your warranty), flashed your drive (in the danger of breaking it) just to play backup of games your have already bought and made yourself (by using one of the few models that can do it with modified firmware). Do you really think there is one person in planet earth dumb enough to do this?

Everyone flashes their drives to play pirated games. Period.

What Microsoft does is ban the modified consoles from XBL. Not your account and the games you bought. Seems fair enough to me. I knew this would happen when I modded my console but I did it so I don't bitch now.

6620.5.2007 6:32
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]OK....what about countries that are LEGALLY allowed to install-modify their consoles,either flash or modchip,think about it,if flashing your drive is illegal in your country,what do you think M$ do every time they do a drive repair??.i don't use XBL,but IMO i think M$ have shot themselves in the foot,and stand to lose big $$$ and heaps of account closedowns,and not by M$,but by the customer,where i am,modifying our consoles is completely legal,and we are allowed one back up of our legally owned game,not all are cheaters,pirates.
Right, so you opened your console (there goes your warranty), flashed your drive (in the danger of breaking it) just to play backup of games your have already bought and made yourself (by using one of the few models that can do it with modified firmware). Do you really think there is one person in planet earth dumb enough to do this?

Everyone flashes their drives to play pirated games. Period.

What Microsoft does is ban the modified consoles from XBL. Not your account and the games you bought. Seems fair enough to me. I knew this would happen when I modded my console but I did it so I don't bitch now.[/quote]no my warranty isn't void,my warranty has expired :)
"Everyone flashes their drives to play pirated games. Period."...CRAP...and you can prove this??
and like i said i don't and will never use live,it just doesn't interest me :)
it would be fair enough if M$ can actually catch the cheaters or whom ever they are targeting,but from what i have heard,ummodified 360's are even getting banned,so whats the go there?

6720.5.2007 10:52

Quote:
[quote=samuels]

no my warranty isn't void,my warranty has expired :)
"Everyone flashes their drives to play pirated games. Period.

...CRAP...and you can prove this??
and like i said i don't and will never use live,it just doesn't interest me :)
it would be fair enough if M$ can actually catch the cheaters or whom ever they are targeting,but from what i have heard,ummodified 360's are even getting banned,so whats the go there?
Tho whole point of installing a modchip is for what purpose = play copied games or install those games on an hdd, regardless if you own the game you copied it is still piracy as you are NOT allowed too,as far as i'm concerned i have every intention of backing up my game collection,im stuffed if i'm pay'n for somehing i already bought

As for legit consoles being banned there won't be a prob all that needs to happen is prove the console has'nt been tampered with which should be relativley easy since the sticker won't have been broken

6820.5.2007 12:44
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]
Originally posted by samuels:


no my warranty isn't void,my warranty has expired :)
"Everyone flashes their drives to play pirated games. Period.

...CRAP...and you can prove this??
and like i said i don't and will never use live,it just doesn't interest me :)
it would be fair enough if M$ can actually catch the cheaters or whom ever they are targeting,but from what i have heard,ummodified 360's are even getting banned,so whats the go there?
Tho whole point of installing a modchip is for what purpose = play copied games or install those games on an hdd, regardless if you own the game you copied it is still piracy as you are NOT allowed too,as far as i'm concerned i have every intention of backing up my game collection,im stuffed if i'm pay'n for somehing i already bought

As for legit consoles being banned there won't be a prob all that needs to happen is prove the console has'nt been tampered with which should be relativley easy since the sticker won't have been broken
well i have informed you,that modchips ARE NOT illegal,where i am from,it ,it is not regarded as piracy here,sure it happens,and is policed,copying of games and SELLING them,thats illegal here.
you state as for unmodded consoles,why has so many people been banned fron live then?there 360's are all legit...
you also say "the whole point of installing a modchip = to played copied games"...sure thats what one of their purposes are,but the other purpose is also to circumvent the xbox or any console,is to be able to play original games from different regions,hence i'm in a PAL region,and NTSC games come out earlier than ours,sometimes months before we get the exact same game in PAL format,sure the 360 may have a majority of region free games,which is good,but there are still a few good ones that arent,and as consumers we have the right to purchase from any where....hence the legality of modchips,M$ and Sony don't like it,but it's our law,Sony took it to court and lost big time....

6920.5.2007 13:51
lyd
Inactive

i got one xbox 360
but i will buy to mod and never use online so how can they ban that xbox 360

7020.5.2007 13:58

AFAIK there are 2 reasons for mod chips, both legit and illicit;

1 - Running backups
Backups can be legally owned material, or they can be pirated . MS can tell the difference between an original and a backup in the memory dump. can they discern whether you have ever installed the "original" of a game on that console? they could probably put a flag in the console's history file Pseuodocode: "shreck 3 has been run off a backup x number of times, but an original has been run in this console " and therefore it's probably legit. as opposed to "shreck 3 has been run in this console off backup and was NEVER run off original (or purchased off live) and therefore this console probably belongs to a pirate"

2 - gameplay issues.

Microsoft live is NOT one server and probably not even one single domain. they can transparently segregate users with modchips / fireware without the ID10T behind the controller ever realizing it , if they chose to . Pseudocode "if modchip then route to xboxlive.mod else route to xboxlive.prime"

again, by pulling memory dumps in realtime they can probably tell, in-game , if a gameplay cheat has been turned on or not, and can even segregate users farther .

As far as the EULA, it probably states that the firmware/software already on board is a license and therefore property of MS, and it probably warns not to replace it with mods or homebrew, but they have no legal standing from preventing you from doing it .
(Just an FYI; the EULA for XB1 was in the load and can be reviewed onscreen, it was NOT provided in hardcopy)

Therefore the ONLY reasons for blocking modded consoles is that they're not willing to invest a lil backend-programming time and processing power to keep the Live customers with mods happy, and/or to punish mod users. It's certainly NOT to precent piracy .

7120.5.2007 14:07
dinger123
Inactive

you can swap the hardrive to a unmodded one and go online,im doing it now.

7220.5.2007 14:49

Quote:
[quote=samuels]

no my warranty isn't void,my warranty has expired :)well i have informed you,that modchips ARE NOT illegal,where i am from,it ,it is not regarded as piracy here,sure it happens,and is policed,copying of games and SELLING them,thats illegal here.
you state as for unmodded consoles,why has so many people been banned fron live then?there 360's are all legit...
you also say "the whole point of installing a modchip = to played copied games"...sure thats what one of their purposes are,but the other purpose is also to circumvent the xbox or any console,is to be able to play original games from different regions,hence i'm in a PAL region,and NTSC games come out earlier than ours,sometimes months before we get the exact same game in PAL format,sure the 360 may have a majority of region free games,which is good,but there are still a few good ones that arent,and as consumers we have the right to purchase from any where....hence the legality of modchips,M$ and Sony don't like it,but it's our law,Sony took it to court and lost big time....
Never said it was illeagal for modchips to be installed where your from ,assuming your quoting me ,the SOB'S tried to have mods bannned here in NZ but failed big time,can't remember whether back ups are allowed or not, most prob not

Granted chips can be used to play offshore games tho would'nt you agree the majority put them in to make & play copies of legit or not games more so than NTSC,apart from the usual linux install and new better interface,i was'nt aware any games were region free go figure

7320.5.2007 15:26
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]
Originally posted by samuels:


no my warranty isn't void,my warranty has expired :)well i have informed you,that modchips ARE NOT illegal,where i am from,it ,it is not regarded as piracy here,sure it happens,and is policed,copying of games and SELLING them,thats illegal here.
you state as for unmodded consoles,why has so many people been banned fron live then?there 360's are all legit...
you also say "the whole point of installing a modchip = to played copied games"...sure thats what one of their purposes are,but the other purpose is also to circumvent the xbox or any console,is to be able to play original games from different regions,hence i'm in a PAL region,and NTSC games come out earlier than ours,sometimes months before we get the exact same game in PAL format,sure the 360 may have a majority of region free games,which is good,but there are still a few good ones that arent,and as consumers we have the right to purchase from any where....hence the legality of modchips,M$ and Sony don't like it,but it's our law,Sony took it to court and lost big time....
Never said it was illeagal for modchips to be installed where your from ,assuming your quoting me ,the SOB'S tried to have mods bannned here in NZ but failed big time,can't remember whether back ups are allowed or not, most prob not

Granted chips can be used to play offshore games tho would'nt you agree the majority put them in to make & play copies of legit or not games more so than NTSC,apart from the usual linux install and new better interface,i was'nt aware any games were region free go figure
sure there are loads of people out there that are into pirating,but on the same token,theres loads of people out there that mod their consoles to get the latest games(original) from the US or Japan.It's a catch 22.
I'm not denying that i haven't tried it,but it's not worth the risk,keeping pirated copies of anything in your house/console HDD,because of the way our laws are set up,any one suspected of doing these activities,the police/federal police can enter our homes now without a search warrant,if any one is suspected of pirating,and people do report these suspected activities to the police,i think why they do it is because they don't like to see battlers gain, monetry wise,but once again,people with loads of money do it as well,so once again,it's a catch 22 situation.

have a peek at our laws regarding modchips,etc
http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/co...8562920421.html

this was round 2 for Sony i think,and they lost again
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 20 May 2007 @ 15:34

7420.5.2007 23:32

Quote:
Never said it was illeagal for modchips to be installed where your from ,assuming your quoting me ,the SOB'S tried to have mods bannned here in NZ but failed big time,can't remember whether back ups are allowed or not, most prob not

Granted chips can be used to play offshore games tho would'nt you agree the majority put them in to make & play copies of legit or not games more so than NTSC,apart from the usual linux install and new better interface,i was'nt aware any games were region free go figure

NZ's copyright laws are stupid, but not really enforced. We're not even technically allowed to put music from a CD on to an MP3player. But there is gunna be a major rewrite of them soonish I believe.
The issue is (at least with the firmware hack) is that your altering M$'s code, which is copyright to them. It just gives them an excuse to ban all pirates/back uppers. I'm not saying that what they did was a good choice but they are quite within their rights to ban everyone from LIVE without warning.

Modchips when they can be turned off arent detectable by MS so there shouldn't be any issue.

"This is how it works. Whatever you sink, we build back up. Whomever you sue, ten new pirates are recruited. Wherever you go, we are already ahead of you. You are the past and the forgotten, we are the internet and the future."-Brokep

7521.5.2007 0:19
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]Never said it was illeagal for modchips to be installed where your from ,assuming your quoting me ,the SOB'S tried to have mods bannned here in NZ but failed big time,can't remember whether back ups are allowed or not, most prob not

Granted chips can be used to play offshore games tho would'nt you agree the majority put them in to make & play copies of legit or not games more so than NTSC,apart from the usual linux install and new better interface,i was'nt aware any games were region free go figure

NZ's copyright laws are stupid, but not really enforced. We're not even technically allowed to put music from a CD on to an MP3player. But there is gunna be a major rewrite of them soonish I believe.
The issue is (at least with the firmware hack) is that your altering M$'s code, which is copyright to them. It just gives them an excuse to ban all pirates/back uppers. I'm not saying that what they did was a good choice but they are quite within their rights to ban everyone from LIVE without warning.

Modchips when they can be turned off arent detectable by MS so there shouldn't be any issue.[/quote]

as for the drives you speak of( firmware flashing)the respective companies that supplied M$ with these drives sold them to them in large quantaties,M$ flashed in their own codes,so the original drive has been flashed by microsoft,to prevent any issues with either piracy or playing backup games on live,so once again flashing your own equipment is also not illegal,as it is now the private property of who ever bought the console,so if you want to flash your drive,you are quite within your rights to,after all technically flashing is really an upgrade isn't it?
after all the drive has already been flashed by M$ before it even was packaged,so if flashing is illegal,that can make M$ liable as well,especially in countries where modding of any kind is legal.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 21 May 2007 @ 0:21

7621.5.2007 11:48
Mav2k
Inactive

This is the first time I have posted a comment on AfterDawn but I feel so strongly about this I decided to do so.

I own an Xbox 360 and have flashed the firmware so to play backups, backups which I OWN the original to. I do this for several reasons, one of which is, you may or may not be aware that xbox 360 drives can fatally scratch game discs whilst being played, as Microsoft decided not to put in any protection system like most drives have to prevent this from happening (basically the disc can tilt and come into physical contact with the read head, the drives should have a simple piece of rubber on each side which prevents this from happening should the disc be tilted for any reason whilst spinning at high revolutions). If this happens to your original game disc you can't prove with ease that the xbox 360 damaged it and so you have to go and BUY the game a second or even a third time if you have been very unlucky. So I use a backup in place of my original so to avoid any of these problems. There are many other legitimate reasons but this is the only one I wish to elaborate on at this time.

Also, in my country I am legally allowed to modify my Xbox 360 so to be able to play my legally made backups as the laws in my country allow this.

I hope Microsoft is reading this topic in this forum because I have legal insurance and I WILL take Microsoft to court if my system is banned from using XBL and if successful this will set a precedent which would force MS to unban all users who live in a country where modifcation and backup of your original owned games is LEGAL!

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 21 May 2007 @ 11:51

7721.5.2007 14:05
samuels
Inactive

Originally posted by Mav2k:
This is the first time I have posted a comment on AfterDawn but I feel so strongly about this I decided to do so.

I own an Xbox 360 and have flashed the firmware so to play backups, backups which I OWN the original to. I do this for several reasons, one of which is, you may or may not be aware that xbox 360 drives can fatally scratch game discs whilst being played, as Microsoft decided not to put in any protection system like most drives have to prevent this from happening (basically the disc can tilt and come into physical contact with the read head, the drives should have a simple piece of rubber on each side which prevents this from happening should the disc be tilted for any reason whilst spinning at high revolutions). If this happens to your original game disc you can't prove with ease that the xbox 360 damaged it and so you have to go and BUY the game a second or even a third time if you have been very unlucky. So I use a backup in place of my original so to avoid any of these problems. There are many other legitimate reasons but this is the only one I wish to elaborate on at this time.

Also, in my country I am legally allowed to modify my Xbox 360 so to be able to play my legally made backups as the laws in my country allow this.

I hope Microsoft is reading this topic in this forum because I have legal insurance and I WILL take Microsoft to court if my system is banned from using XBL and if successful this will set a precedent which would force MS to unban all users who live in a country where modifcation and backup of your original owned games is LEGAL!
very well said,you summed it up better than what i did,(i also live in a country where modding is completely LEGAL)although i don't use live,so it doesn't phase me,but, it is a concern for millions of others that do,i have heard that even un modified 360's are even getting banned.

7821.5.2007 14:16

Here in the US under teh revised DMCA tehy decided that self backups are legal however in the same breath they made circumvention illegal, so that leaves modding and modding tools and the actual software that makes the backup questionable. there hasn't been a test case yet, that I know of.

7921.5.2007 17:10

Many years ago, Nintendo brought a lawsuit against Tengen for making games for the NES console that were not licensed by Nintendo. I remember reading somewhere in this lawsuit the issues of ownership was brought up. It was decided that when a consumer was to buy a videogame, they could do whatever they wanted with it because they owned it.

This now with Microsoft sounds like leasing a car. You can use it, but you can not do anything with it.

Since when did product ownership turn into product leasing? Is this written on the box that you can not do anything with it? Usually opening up a device will void your warranty, but in this case if you are paying for a service (I'm assuming Live is a pay service, I do not know for sure), what does it matter if your device is modded or not?

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 25 May 2007 @ 16:59

8021.5.2007 17:29

Quote:
I hope Microsoft is reading this topic in this forum because I have legal insurance and I WILL take Microsoft to court if my system is banned from using XBL and if successful this will set a precedent which would force MS to unban all users who live in a country where modifcation and backup of your original owned games is LEGAL!

Quote:
This now with Microsoft sounds like leasing a car. You can use it, but you can not do anything with it.

Since when did product ownership turn into product leasing? Is this written on the box that you can not do anything with it? Usually opening up a device will void your warranty, but in this case if you are paying for a service (I'm assuming Live is a pay service, I do not know for sure), what does it matter if your device is modded or not?

I really don't get the twisting of facts that's going on here. MS does not have to allow people with modded X-Boxes to hook up to their network. It's really quite simple. Now, if you signed a contract that did not mention what the state of your X-Box had to be before connecting to XBL, then you'd have a legal standing.

What you guys are talking about is tantamount to buying a car, and equiping it with third-party parts which, while legal to buy, can render your car illegal to drive on city streets, and now you are bitching because the police are preventing you from driving to work.
Quote:
what does it matter if your device is modded or not?

Modding your Box in the privacy of your home is one thing, but taking your modded Box onto MS's network is a whole different matter. For whatever reason, they don't want them there. Game over.

What you need to decide is what is more important to you: modding your Box, or playing on the network.

8121.5.2007 17:45

Quote:
MS does not have to allow people with modded X-Boxes to hook up to their network. It's really quite simple.
This is vry true, the problem is that people are paying for the service, and do have certain rights because of this. The poster who spoke about the legality of backups in his country proves this, M$ is offering this service globally, which means they need in the least refine their policies to respct the laws in the countries in which they offer their services. If this service was free you would be 100% accurate, but the fact people, pirates or not, are paying for the service, makes the whole situation complicated.


8221.5.2007 17:58

Quote:
This is vry true, the problem is that people are paying for the service, and do have certain rights because of this.

And where did they get the "right" to put a modded Xbox on MS's network? Just because I legally buy racing tires for my car doesn't mean I get to drive it on a public street. I'd really like to see the clause in the XBL contract where it states that a person can connect to XBL using a modded Box. If it ain't there, then it ain't your right. Period.
Quote:
If this service was free you would be 100% accurate

The hell? Just because you pay for a subscription service doesn't mean you can use it any way, shape or form that you want to without legal ramifications. ALL such services have limitions, one good example being satellite tv. If I fuck with my satellite receiver, and they find out, they can and will prevent me from receiving their signal.

Anyone here got the XBL contract, or got a link. Let's find out exactly what your rights really are, rather than pretending you can do something just because you think you can.

8321.5.2007 17:59

I was banned on the very first day MS started the bans, but the funny thing is it didn't bother me the slightest. On that day, i was FINALLY able to find a brand new Wii at EB games, last 1 at the store...i was sooo lucky...This system IS the SHIT ppl. Who cares about live. Play Wii Sports with 3 or 4 friends n u'll see how fast u forget about Xbox Live

8421.5.2007 18:12

Quote:
[quote]This is vry true, the problem is that people are paying for the service, and do have certain rights because of this.

And where did they get the "right" to put a modded Xbox on MS's network? Just because I legally buy racing tires for my car doesn't mean I get to drive it on a public street. I'd really like to see the clause in the XBL contract where it states that a person can connect to XBL using a modded Box. If it ain't there, then it ain't your right. Period.
Quote:
If this service was free you would be 100% accurate

The hell? Just because you pay for a subscription service doesn't mean you can use it any way, shape or form that you want to without legal ramifications. ALL such services have limitions, one good example being satellite tv. If I fuck with my satellite receiver, and they find out, they can and will prevent me from receiving their signal.

Anyone here got the XBL contract, or got a link. Let's find out exactly what your rights really are, rather than pretending you can do something just because you think you can.[/quote]Unless you are well versed in global law which im pretty confident you are not, you dont know what you are talking about. AND STOP WITH ALL THESE LAME ASS CAR ANALOGIES!

So, according to you, if I live in Sweden where it is 100% legal to backup your games, the rules shouldnt be refined? The government established the law, the members of the country are doing nothing wrong by using their backup on their console. Ok make sure you read this....M$ is a Piece of trash company....Sweden is a country. See the distinction?? Government > corporation, especially outside the US. If my government tells me that I can do something LEGALLY, and am then punished for doing this, that is horse shit. Plain and simple.

And stop thinking in the context of US law, my last post was in a global perspective. Although I am a US citizen, i disagree with many policies. If you are going to do business around the world, it might be worth the time to learn the governing laws in which you do business with....or you will find your arse sued.


8521.5.2007 18:20

Quote:
Unless you are well versed in global law which im pretty confident you are not, you dont know what you are talking about.
Just because I'm saying what you don't want to hear doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about, and saying what you want to be true over and over doesn't make it true, either.

Quote:
"So, according to you, if I live in Sweden where it is 100% legal to backup your games, the rules shouldnt be refined?"
As I said over and over again: there's a difference between modding your box at home for whatever purpose, and taking that same box onto XBL. Modding for backups and going onto XBL are mutually exclusive activities.

Here are some highlights from http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/legal/?WT.svl=nav

Quote:
3. HOW AND WHEN YOU MAY USE THE SERVICE
We provide the Service for your personal use. You may not use the Service for commercial purposes or in a way that is against the law. You also may not use it in a way that harms us or our affiliates, resellers, distributors, service providers, partners and/or suppliers (collectively, the "Microsoft Parties"), or any customer of a Microsoft Party. Some examples of harmful activity that we do not permit include: (i) trying to gain access to any account, computers, hardware or networks related to this Service without authorization; (ii) disrupting accounts, computers, hardware or networks related to the Service; (iii) obtaining or trying to obtain any data through any means from the Service, except if we intend to provide or make it available to you; (iv) using the Service or related hardware to obtain any data to design, develop or update unauthorized software that you use or provide to others to access or use in connection with the Service; (v) charging others to use the Service either directly or indirectly; (vi) using or distributing unauthorized cheats, macros or scripts; (vii) exploiting any bug, or making unauthorized modifications to any software or data, in the Service or particular game to gain unfair advantage in a game.

We may tell you about other specific harmful uses in a code of conduct or other notice available through the Service. We have, however, no duty to do so. You will obey any codes of conduct or other notices we provide.

Quote:
Use the Service or any material or information which is made available through the Service in any manner that infringes any copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret, or other proprietary right of any party.

Quote:
10. SOFTWARE; INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
We and our suppliers grant you a personal, non-exclusive, revocable license to use the software and associated content (e.g., text, images, video, graphics, music, sound) made available to you on this Service only for and during the authorized use of this Service and/or the game or other product to which the software and content relate. You may not copy, download, modify or create derivative works, publish, transmit, sell or attempt to sell or transfer, or otherwise use or exploit any software or associated content unless we or our suppliers have expressly allowed you to do so. Some software and associated content you may choose to download may be accompanied by an end user license agreement ("EULA") or may indicate specific authorized uses or restrictions (such as the Special Video Content described in Section 11 below), in which case the EULA or those other rights and restrictions will apply.
And here's the biggie:
Quote:
14. SERVICE OPERATION AND EQUIPMENT
The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox, an Xbox 360 console, a personal computer or by logging into your account via Xbox.com. You agree that you are using authorized software and hardware to access the Service, and that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., authorized repairs, upgrades and downloads). Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, further sublicense, distribute, or use for other purposes either the hardware or software associated with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console or the Service, is strictly prohibited and may result in cancellation of your account and/or your ability to access the Service, and the pursuit of other legal remedies by Microsoft. Microsoft may take any legal action it deems appropriate against users who violate Microsoft's systems or network security or this contract or any additional terms as described in Section 2 above, and such users may also incur criminal and/or civil liability.

Microsoft reserves complete and sole discretion with respect to the operation of the Service. Microsoft may, among other things: (a) restrict or limit access to the Service; (b) retrieve information from the original Xbox, Xbox 360 console, personal computer and any connected peripheral device used to log onto the Service as necessary to operate and protect the security of the Service, and to enforce this Agreement; and (c) upgrade, modify, withdraw, suspend, or discontinue any functionality or feature of the Service or any game from time to time without notice, which may involve the automatic download of related software directly to your original Xbox, Xbox 360 console or personal computer, and which software may prevent you from accessing the Service, playing pirated games, or using unauthorized peripheral devices.
This is what you agreed to when you signed onto XBL. If you don't think this is right, then you shouldn't have paid for it. If you didn't read the contract before you signed it, then that's your fault.

Quote:
If you are going to do business around the world, it might be worth the time to learn the governing laws in which you do business with....or you will find your arse sued.
Yeah, good luck winning this one, Clarence Darrow.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 21 May 2007 @ 18:20

8621.5.2007 18:35

Ill give this to you, you are persistant and a hell of a lot more intelligent then the average poster. I wont continue this argument, because the legality of all this is more then even i know. Yes, in America, it is copyright infringement to make a backup....while in other nations where it is legal to backup media you purchase, would you consider it infringement? That is my point.

You know as well as I do that 90% of people are ignorant, when they are told something is legit they do no question the judgement. What we are talking about is extremely complicated, and we are not completely on the same length. In America, you are right. We are not allowed to circumvent copy protection regardless, thus M$ has every right to ban. As I have pointed out, this doesnt hold true in other countries. If the typical moron in Sweden or wherever backups their games which is legal, and then plays on Live, there is a major conflict when he gets banned. The dude scratched up his disk to no fault of his own (any 360 owner knows it scratches disk's badly), so he played his backup...30 minutes later gets banned. Where is the justice in that? He did nothing wrong according to his govenment. We both know the average person doesnt read the rules of usage, and im not saying that they have legal precedence because of their ignorance.

Bottom line is that it is bad business, and will bite M$ on the ass. I do have a flashed 360 but never have subscriber to Live, and would not bitch when I got banned, because I understand the policy.



8721.5.2007 18:37
Mav2k
Inactive

What always surprises me is how people take what a company dictates or puts in writing as the LAW or as the TRUTH.

The amount of times I see signs and contracts which state things like, "if you buy this item from our store you are NOT entitled to a cash refund if faulty, ONLY a credit voucher or replacement", now this is just an example, but just because someone makes you sign something to do something you want to do or purchase something you want, does NOT make it LEGAL or CORRECT! (To people who do not live in my country, this is against the law, if any item is found to be faulty within a given time you are ENTITLED to a full CASH refund, no questions asked!)

When Microsoft or any other company supply a paid for service or commodity, it does NOT give them the right to break the LAWS in a particular country if they happen NOT to fit into MS's way of doing things.

In effect MS is dictating to me what I can do with my OWN console and if I do not abide they remove some of its functionality as a consequence, I believe this to be ILLEGAL in my country!

Here in Europe MS has been fined many times for not abiding by our LAWS in various areas, this MAY be another GREY area which IS going to be addressed sooner or later and MAY NOT go in MS's favour!

Watch this space!!

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 21 May 2007 @ 18:45

8821.5.2007 18:39

^^^^

/me applaudes you!



8921.5.2007 18:55

Quote:
Yes, in America, it is copyright infringement to make a backup....while in other nations where it is legal to backup media you purchase, would you consider it infringement? That is my point.
I understand, but your point is beside the point. This is not about whether or not you can modify your Box and make copies. This is about whether or not you can take the Xbox that was modified for whatever reason and go onto MS's network. Apples and oranges.

Quote:
What always surprises me is how people take what a company dictates or puts in writing as the LAW or as the TRUTH.

The amount of times I see signs and contracts which state things like, "if you buy this item from our store you are NOT entitled to a cash refund if faulty, ONLY a credit voucher or replacement", now this is just an example but just because someone makes you sign something to do something you want to do, does NOT make it LEGAL or CORRECT!

When Microsoft or any other company supply a paid for service or commodity, it does NOT give them the right to break the LAWS in a particular country if they happen NOT to fit into MS's way of doing things.
This makes no point whatsoever, unless of course you are saying that, despite signing this contract, MS is as legally bound to following their contract as you think you are. Since you feel it is within your rights to agree to this contract and yet not be bound to it, then you wouldn't have a problem with MS doing the same thing?

Quote:
In effect MS is dictating to me what I can do with my OWN console and if I do not abide they remove some of its functionality as a consequence, I believe this to be ILLEGAL in my country!
No, you want it to be illegal. Care to bring up the appropriate law? (BTW, I love how you talk about law and truth in a negative manner when it goes against you, and yet in a positive manner when you think it will benefit you. Pretty funny.)

In a nutshell:
Modding console in privacy of home = okay
Taking modded console onto XBL = not okay.

Do you see the difference?

They are not required to accept your modded console on their network. How and why you modded your console aren't even part of this argument. To presume that they must allow a paying customer to access their network with modded hardware, when that paying customer agreed prior to paying that they would not use modded hardware, makes no sense, regardless of whether or not you think it's a good or bad business decision. Good luck finding a country that will support you in this legal endeavor.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 21 May 2007 @ 19:00

9021.5.2007 19:06

Some good points presented there aswell, I see this going on for days :/



9121.5.2007 19:58

Originally posted by Mav2k:
What always surprises me is how people take what a company dictates or puts in writing as the LAW or as the TRUTH.

The amount of times I see signs and contracts which state things like, "if you buy this item from our store you are NOT entitled to a cash refund if faulty, ONLY a credit voucher or replacement", now this is just an example, but just because someone makes you sign something to do something you want to do or purchase something you want, does NOT make it LEGAL or CORRECT! (To people who do not live in my country, this is against the law, if any item is found to be faulty within a given time you are ENTITLED to a full CASH refund, no questions asked!)

When Microsoft or any other company supply a paid for service or commodity, it does NOT give them the right to break the LAWS in a particular country if they happen NOT to fit into MS's way of doing things.

In effect MS is dictating to me what I can do with my OWN console and if I do not abide they remove some of its functionality as a consequence, I believe this to be ILLEGAL in my country!

Here in Europe MS has been fined many times for not abiding by our LAWS in various areas, this MAY be another GREY area which IS going to be addressed sooner or later and MAY NOT go in MS's favour!

Watch this space!!
Microsoft IS NOT impairing the functionality of the XB360 that you own; they're just inserting a tag to allow their servers to disallow it; if there was another service from another provider, theoretically you'd still be able to access THAT network , assuming they didn't share the ban list with microsoft.

9221.5.2007 22:03
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]Yes, in America, it is copyright infringement to make a backup....while in other nations where it is legal to backup media you purchase, would you consider it infringement? That is my point.
I understand, but your point is beside the point. This is not about whether or not you can modify your Box and make copies. This is about whether or not you can take the Xbox that was modified for whatever reason and go onto MS's network. Apples and oranges.

Quote:
What always surprises me is how people take what a company dictates or puts in writing as the LAW or as the TRUTH.

The amount of times I see signs and contracts which state things like, "if you buy this item from our store you are NOT entitled to a cash refund if faulty, ONLY a credit voucher or replacement", now this is just an example but just because someone makes you sign something to do something you want to do, does NOT make it LEGAL or CORRECT!

When Microsoft or any other company supply a paid for service or commodity, it does NOT give them the right to break the LAWS in a particular country if they happen NOT to fit into MS's way of doing things.
This makes no point whatsoever, unless of course you are saying that, despite signing this contract, MS is as legally bound to following their contract as you think you are. Since you feel it is within your rights to agree to this contract and yet not be bound to it, then you wouldn't have a problem with MS doing the same thing?

Quote:
In effect MS is dictating to me what I can do with my OWN console and if I do not abide they remove some of its functionality as a consequence, I believe this to be ILLEGAL in my country!
No, you want it to be illegal. Care to bring up the appropriate law? (BTW, I love how you talk about law and truth in a negative manner when it goes against you, and yet in a positive manner when you think it will benefit you. Pretty funny.)

In a nutshell:
Modding console in privacy of home = okay
Taking modded console onto XBL = not okay.

Do you see the difference?

They are not required to accept your modded console on their network. How and why you modded your console aren't even part of this argument. To presume that they must allow a paying customer to access their network with modded hardware, when that paying customer agreed prior to paying that they would not use modded hardware, makes no sense, regardless of whether or not you think it's a good or bad business decision. Good luck finding a country that will support you in this legal endeavor.[/quote]

while your statement may be quite true,i don't know how live works,so i can't really go commenting to much about it,as i don't have a clue,what you have to do,i understand that people agree by M$ agreement,to use the service,however,countries that are allowed to modify the consoles and make back up of their originals,M$ technically cannot ban that console,until they can personally verify that the person does, in actual fact own an original copy,of the backup that they are using on live.in this scenorio i don't think it would hold up very well in a court case for M$.
also when everyone bought their 360,there is no signing of contracts,to prevent anyone from modifying the consoles,while it may be illegal in one country it's not in another,as i have stated...sure theres "pirates" but not everyone does this,there are many reasons why people back up their originals.
we could all argue that even the internet is illegal,we have the feds watching us,we have hackers watching us,etc,etc
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 21 May 2007 @ 22:05

9322.5.2007 0:56

eandtc has it right, regardless of the legal factors around game backups and modding etc when you sign up to LIVE you agree to their Terms and Conditions before your allowed to use the service. As shown it is in those terms and conditions that you are not allowed to use backups or a modified console, and in doing so you break the contract (legal?) you agreed to and run the risk of being permanently denied the use of that service. The only people able to complain about this are the people who got caught with no reason, half the people on xbox.com claiming to have a non-modded console are obviously just trying to get a free fix as several of them have games that arent released (only available by DL'ing) in there recently played list (pirates of the Caribbean being the main one), so they are full of crap.

EDIT: They are only banning people from LIVE, its not like they are bricking peoples consoles (which they could probably legally do if they wanted). Even if people are using legally backed-up games it still breaks the agreement the user signed on first use of LIVE, the LIVE agreement is like a global law.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 May 2007 @ 1:04

"This is how it works. Whatever you sink, we build back up. Whomever you sue, ten new pirates are recruited. Wherever you go, we are already ahead of you. You are the past and the forgotten, we are the internet and the future."-Brokep

9422.5.2007 2:36
Mav2k
Inactive

It is obvious that everyone has differing opinions on what is ok and what is not.

I will say this one last time. I want to use XBL, in order to use this service that I pay for, I have to agree to MS's terms and conditions or I am unable to use the online FUNCTION which MY Xbox 360 offers.

Now just because MS FORCE me to agree to these terms and conditions, does NOT make it LEGALLY enforceable by them in a court of law in a country like mine where modification and backup is totally LEGAL. Not so I can CHEAT whilst playing games on XBL, this is not part of the modification / backup, it simply allows the use of my LEGALLY backed up up game of my ORIGINAL.

Now to that person who says I used the words LAW and TRUTH when it suits me, how have I demonstrated differences in any of my statements. If I had copied a game I do not own then that would be illegal and fair cop if I was caught out, but this is NOT the case nor have I changed my views or used selective wording, I suggest you read my statements more clearly next time before making a wrong judgment!

To end I will just say that I think most of the people here have heard of court cases regarding unfair and illegal wording of contracts which end users have to sign or have signed in order to use their property or paid for service, this is not a clear cut case and MS are NOT always in the RIGHT!

To Andrew691: Microsoft has NO LEGAL right in ANY country to brick anyones console just because they do not agree with how it is being used! Finally, Microsoft do NOT make the LAWS in ANY country, so your reference to the LIVE agreement being a global law does not stand up!

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 May 2007 @ 3:29

9522.5.2007 5:24

Quote:
countries that are allowed to modify the consoles and make back up of their originals,M$ technically cannot ban that console,until they can personally verify that the person does, in actual fact own an original copy,of the backup that they are using on live.
Bullshit. Where's the law saying so?

Quote:
sure theres "pirates" but not everyone does this,there are many reasons why people back up their originals.
See, the problem isn't just about "backing up", which is why I keep saying over and over that this excuse is moot.

XBL was set up to work a certain way with Xboxes, and it assumes the Xbox will do certain things. If an Xbox does something other than what it is intended to do, then the network is in danger.

What if an Xbox was modified to making cheating on the net easier? What if an Xbox was modified to find and record personal data? What if an Xbox was modified to download credit card numbers? What if an Xbox was modified to bring down the whole network?

See, you are so focused on your own little world of needs, that you are missing the big picture. There are many ways to modify an Xbox, and to say that MS needs to keep track of all kinds of mods, and determine which are good and which are bad is simply not in their best interests. It's much easier more economical to just ban any Xbox that is not an original product, rather than risk damages incurred to the network by hackers, or by lawsuits from you guys because someone with a hacked box caused you damages.

Think about it - someone pays you to use your network, and insists that they be allowed to do anything they want because they are paying for it. You must consider the fact that the damages they could cause by using the network without limitations could create a higher monetary cost than what they are currently paying you. Is that worth the risk?

No, it isn't. MS wants to keep their network safe and secure, and they have every right to do so. Don't want to play ball by their clearly explained rules in this regard? Then you don't play XBL, and you don't have a legal leg to stand on.

"To end I will just say that I think most of the people here have heard of court cases regarding unfair and illegal wording of contracts which end users have to sign or have signed in order to use their property or paid for service, this is not a clear cut case and MS are NOT always in the RIGHT! "

I never said MS was always right, and in fact while I've been using an MS OS since DOS 6, I've never bought an MS OS since DOS 6. However, in this case, they are right, and to be honest, I completely agree with their choice to prevent moded XBoxes from their network. Considering the hacking going on around the world in general, they really can't afford the risk. And please, by all means, show me the law in any country that says a company in another country MUST let you use whatever equipment you want to get onto their network if you pay a subscription, even if the agreement you agreed to says you won't and can't.

I'll wait....
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 May 2007 @ 6:19

9622.5.2007 7:14
Mav2k
Inactive

Please show me where I said that companies should allow anyone to use any equipment to access their networks?

What I said is if Microsoft want to sell a console and offer as part of that console online game play through a network, I should be able to access that network through their console Which I paid for and for which I pay an annual subscription to access their network.

I think you are fixated on the fact that modded or hacked means BAD or ILLEGAL, used to cheat on games or spy on others. This is NOT what the firmware modification allows and not what anyone is talking about, it simply allows the play back of backed up games on your console and nothing else, it won't even allow a region protected game to play backed up or not, so it even abides by specific region lockouts where applicable, how exactly is that a BAD thing or indeed an ILLEGAL thing, where as discussed the country laws allow!

Quote: "No, it isn't. MS wants to keep their network safe and secure, and they have every right to do so. Don't want to play ball by their clearly explained rules in this regard? Then you don't play XBL, and you don't have a legal leg to stand on."

I didn't realize you were a legal expert in every country on the planet, so please do tell how you can make such a vast statement like that?

Please share your wisdom with us all!

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 May 2007 @ 7:20

9722.5.2007 7:22

Quote:
What I said is if Microsoft want to sell a console and offer as part of that console online game play through a network, I should be able to access that network through their console Which I paid for and for which I pay an annual subscription to access their network.
Interesting that you glossed over the part where the Xbox is modded. At that point, the Xbox you want to use is not the Xbox that MS sold to you. Difference.

Quote:
I think you are fixated on the fact that modded or hacked means BAD or ILLEGAL
No. Actually, you are fixated on it. Fact is, XBL is MS's network, and they can and set the rules in regards to who can access it and how. They don't have to let a modded Xbox access their network anymore than they have to allow a PS3, PC, or Mac to access their network.

You keep putting the horse before the cart. It's not a question of legality of the mod. It's a question of the integrity of the network. To presume that MS has to believe you or anyone else as to the true nature of the mod is absolutely ridiculous on so many fronts, and legally, they don't have to believe you.

MS doesn't want anything other than unmodified Xboxes on their network. You agreed to this when you signed up. There's no way you can make them do otherwise.

Quote:
I didn't realize you were a legal expert in every country on the planet, so please do tell how you can make such a vast statement like that?
That's a retarded response that doesn't make your case at all. You are clearly clutching at straws.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 May 2007 @ 7:39

9822.5.2007 7:53

meh in the end a chiped system or even one with questionable firmware will be kicked off live, so get use to it already and get a 2nd system for "online play".


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

9922.5.2007 8:00
Mav2k
Inactive

Quote:- Quote:What I said is if Microsoft want to sell a console and offer as part of that console online game play through a network, I should be able to access that network through their console Which I paid for and for which I pay an annual subscription to access their network.

Interesting that you glossed over the part where the Xbox is modded. At that point, the Xbox you want to use is not the Xbox that MS sold to you. Difference.


Ok if you want to get bitty about this, in your way of thinking, if I purchase a new faceplate to change the front of my xbox, does that mean I no longer have the xbox MS sold to me and so have no right to access their network in order to play online?
Oh and another thing, I have never glossed over the part where I have a modified firmware or use backed games of my originals in any of my posts, you are the one being selective and only selecting the parts of my posts that suit you, to try and backup your claims not me!

The point I am trying to make is that it is not as simple as you are trying to make out, if the law were a simple thing you wouldn't need a lawyer or solicitor to fight your case for you, nothing in life is black and white, just different shades of grey!



Quote:- Quote:I didn't realize you were a legal expert in every country on the planet, so please do tell how you can make such a vast statement like that?

That's a retarded response that doesn't make your case at all. You are clearly clutching at straws.


Please explain how that is a retarded response, you made a specific claim about not having a legal leg to stand on, you cannot make such a claim as you obviously are not a legal expert in any country, never mind around the globe, you are the one with the retarded response not me, and as such I believe you are the one without an answer to back up your claims!

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 May 2007 @ 8:16

10022.5.2007 8:14

Quote:
"in your way of thinking, if I purchase a new faceplate to change the front of my xbox, does that mean I no longer have the xbox MS sold to me and so have no right to access their network in order to play online?
1. A comestic change does not affect the workings of the console. Apparently this is not clear to you.
2. A change to the Xbox that does not affect the inner workings is not detectable by Xbox anyways, so, like most other things you've said, it's a moot point.

Quote:
The point I am trying to make is that it is not as simple as you are trying to make out, if the law were a simple thing you wouldn't need a lawyer or solicitor to fight your case for you
And what, exactly, has your lawyer told you about this? Nothing? Oh my...

Quote:
I believe you are the one without an answer to back up your claims!
You also believe what MS is doing is illegal, posting nothing more than opinions. Just goes to show. Anyways:

1. I've posted the appropriate legal verbage from the MS contract which you would have agreed to.
2. You've not provided any evidence of any law of any country that says MS cannot limit access of their network to a person of another country.
3. You won't find such a law, because any country with a computer network understands that such open, unrestrained access to any network is a bad thing, and the monetary risks clearly exceed any potential gain to be had from allowing it.

But, again, I throw down the gauntlet (and I'm running out of them, too.) Where is this law that you feel gives you the right to put a modded Box on MS's network regardless of their conditions? I'm just dying to see it. ;)

Until you can truly demonstrate otherwise, you are just pissing up a rope, and even more importantly, you cannot access XBL. Congratulations. :)
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 May 2007 @ 8:19

10122.5.2007 8:18

I take Eulas with a grain of salt and generally don't give a crap what they have to say.

Moding has always been tricky and now consoles are on the ent,big brother is watching so get over it already *L*

10222.5.2007 8:28
Mav2k
Inactive

eandtc, I really think you are an immature, arrogant person given the comments you have made and profanities you have used.

Have I used any profanities in my posts, have I even been offensive in any of my views posted here, the answer is NO I have not!

You state you have posted the MS jargon in their Terms and Conditions, this shows just how much attention you have paid to my posts (NONE), everyone knows and accepts that MS state clearly you cannot use a modified console on their network, this does not make it right, nor does it mean that in some countries around the world it is not in direct violation of their laws given the use of modifications to play backups of originals is LEGAL there.

I will say again for the LAST time, MS does not make the LAW and just because they make their own rules does not make them always LEGALLY enforceable.

I have never made out that I am a LEGAL expert, but in laws that I do know and have used in my country (i.e. The Sale of Goods Act) for situations similar to this but not quite the same, I feel very strongly that MS are in this case violating my LEGAL RIGHTS in my country if or when my system is banned, because at present it is NOT, thank you for your concern though!! ;)

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 May 2007 @ 8:30

10322.5.2007 8:42

Your opinion of me doesn't change facts or improve your argument.

Quote:
this does not make it right
You've not shown how limiting access to a network is wrong. You think MS is the only one who has this kind of clause? AOL, MSN, Yahoo...ANY network is going to have these limitiations in regards to altering their hardware or software.

Quote:
nor does it mean that in some countries around the world it is not in direct violation of their laws given the use of modifications to play backups of originals is LEGAL there.
Again, you keep confusing back-ups with network access. Two completely different things.

Quote:
I will say again for the LAST time, MS does not make the LAW and just because they make their own rules does not make them always LEGALLY enforceable.
And as I said, rules limiting network access are not new, or even unique to XBL. You are missing the forest for the trees.

Quote:
but in laws that I do know and have used in my country (i.e. The Sale of Goods Act) for situations similar to this but not quite the same
More details, please. I'm waiting. I'm betting those differences you apparently know of but aren't addressing make all the difference in the world.

10422.5.2007 9:18
morguex
Inactive

I don't understand why this is such a big debate, It clearly states in the XBL contract that you cannot use a modded xbox of any kind on MS networks.
If you don't like it, don't play XBL with your modded 360.

Just because you think your right, or you have certain rights, does not make you correct.
Cheers to Eandtc, no offense Mav2k, but I think it's time to give it up and just go buy yourself a new unmodded 360.

Peace all
P.S. The comment about the faceplate was just plain funny

10522.5.2007 9:36
Mav2k
Inactive

No offense taken, everyone is entitled to express their own opinion, nothing wrong with that.

I must just say though, it seems in this day and age people seem to just sit back and take things up the rear, if a big global company like MS says jump, most people say how high?

If the UK and the US decided to just sit back and take it up the rear from Hitler in Germany, because it wasn't affecting them directly at that time, the world would be a very different place today and the freedoms most of us have and take for granted would not be a reality.

We have freedom, the freedom to question something we don't agree with, so lets use that freedom and not just take it up the rear from multi nationals like MS.

I'm not saying this makes me right and MS wrong, legally speaking, but unless it is questioned and contended in a court of law, no one will ever know!

I will now refrain from making any more posts on this subject here as I feel I am just going round in circles with those that totally disagree with me, and thats fine, its their own views / opinions but some people make out as if they know what they are saying is FACT but they do not know any more than I do who is right and who is wrong at this time.

Many thanks to all who have taken part in this debate and those who agree with me and showed their support, much appreciated.

eandtc, I don't hold any grudge against you nor do I wish to fall out over this, I only would like you to acknowledge that you MAY not be right in everything you have stated and that it is like me, your OWN opinion.

Peace. :)

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 May 2007 @ 10:01

10622.5.2007 10:03

Mav2k finally had to quit, just as I did. I understand everything people are saying, and I also understand eandtc is right. Sucks to say, but it is the truth. Although he is right, it doesnt make M$ right. We are the people that bay the big bucks and keep them in business, I hope they take a hit from doing this.

In the end, I learned more here then I did in my last semester of college :)



10722.5.2007 10:14

Well, I'm glad some good came out of this. ;)

I would like to say, also, that I agree that this sucks for you guys, but using modded Boxes potentially creates a lot of problems which can cause MS and you a lot of hassles down the road. I've no love for MS (I'll give up W2K when they pry it from my dead, cold computer), but it's really not worth it for them to allow that kind of access.

Oh, and...

Quote:
If the UK and the US decided to just sit back and take it up the rear from Hitler in Germany...

I call Godwin! XD
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 May 2007 @ 11:41

10822.5.2007 15:52
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]countries that are allowed to modify the consoles and make back up of their originals,M$ technically cannot ban that console,until they can personally verify that the person does, in actual fact own an original copy,of the backup that they are using on live.
Bullshit. Where's the law saying so?

Quote:
sure theres "pirates" but not everyone does this,there are many reasons why people back up their originals.
See, the problem isn't just about "backing up", which is why I keep saying over and over that this excuse is moot.

XBL was set up to work a certain way with Xboxes, and it assumes the Xbox will do certain things. If an Xbox does something other than what it is intended to do, then the network is in danger.

What if an Xbox was modified to making cheating on the net easier? What if an Xbox was modified to find and record personal data? What if an Xbox was modified to download credit card numbers? What if an Xbox was modified to bring down the whole network?

See, you are so focused on your own little world of needs, that you are missing the big picture. There are many ways to modify an Xbox, and to say that MS needs to keep track of all kinds of mods, and determine which are good and which are bad is simply not in their best interests. It's much easier more economical to just ban any Xbox that is not an original product, rather than risk damages incurred to the network by hackers, or by lawsuits from you guys because someone with a hacked box caused you damages.

Think about it - someone pays you to use your network, and insists that they be allowed to do anything they want because they are paying for it. You must consider the fact that the damages they could cause by using the network without limitations could create a higher monetary cost than what they are currently paying you. Is that worth the risk?

No, it isn't. MS wants to keep their network safe and secure, and they have every right to do so. Don't want to play ball by their clearly explained rules in this regard? Then you don't play XBL, and you don't have a legal leg to stand on.

"To end I will just say that I think most of the people here have heard of court cases regarding unfair and illegal wording of contracts which end users have to sign or have signed in order to use their property or paid for service, this is not a clear cut case and MS are NOT always in the RIGHT! "

I never said MS was always right, and in fact while I've been using an MS OS since DOS 6, I've never bought an MS OS since DOS 6. However, in this case, they are right, and to be honest, I completely agree with their choice to prevent moded XBoxes from their network. Considering the hacking going on around the world in general, they really can't afford the risk. And please, by all means, show me the law in any country that says a company in another country MUST let you use whatever equipment you want to get onto their network if you pay a subscription, even if the agreement you agreed to says you won't and can't.

I'll wait....[/quote]
i gave a link,regarding the legalities of our consoles,see previous posts,and you say backing up is "moot" how did you come to that conclusion? so you are saying you have never backed anything up,on your computer,recorded a TV show on your old VCR or DVD recorder?
now from what i am understanding from the M$ site and various other forums,they are banning randomly and modded xbox's,i fail to understand how a modded box can allow you to cheat,that seems to be M$ main legal standing(remember this is only from what i am understanding)now as stated by someone else,a modded box or even any other console,allows the playing of backed up disc's,OK fair enough "pirated" and legally owned back ups.so please enlighten me as to how you can cheat,even with a backed up copy?this is M$'s only answer to stop what they term as "illegal" ....modded consoles,now the people that have modded consoles,and play on live,may well have signed up in ignorance,knowing they had a modded box,but hey,at the end of the day,they are STILL paying CUSTOMERS,theres no denying that. IMO M$ are/will lose out in the end big time,whether it be legal procceedings or multi million dollar loses due to customers cancelling their subscriptions,and there aint no law from preventing them from doing that...well not here anyrate..so i believe half of your statement to be incorrect,in regards to people modding their boxes,and going online,just because you have a modded box in a legal country,and you play on live,M$ have to prove that you are playing with a backup,i can actually see this going to court if it arises here...don't hold me to this,but i have not heard of any one in oz land being banned as yet,i'm sure someone on here will inform me if they have,as i would find this very interesting,because of the way our laws on this is set up.
PS keep your eye out in various other places,for you cheaters out there,there sounds like i fix coming out very soon.J/K about all you cheaters,i just had to re-itterate,however the rest of the statement is true "wink"

10922.5.2007 15:57

samuels
a few countries in Europe do allow backing up and the play of backed up stuff however the list is shrinking as the might of the media mafia spreads.

11022.5.2007 16:21

Quote:
and you say backing up is "moot" how did you come to that conclusion? so you are saying you have never backed anything up,on your computer,recorded a TV show on your old VCR or DVD recorder?
No. I did not say that.

Quote:
i fail to understand how a modded box can allow you to cheat,that seems to be M$ main legal standing
No. The main legal standing is that MS is limiting access to THEIR NETWORK solely to unmodded Xboxes, as is their right. It doesn't matter what the purpose of the mod was. This is why I said the reasons for modding the Box are moot. Get it now?

Quote:
"so please enlighten me as to how you can cheat,even with a backed up copy?
The purpose of the mod doesn't matter. What MS is saying is that, for whatever reason you chose to mod your box, doing so will prevent you from going onto their network, just like doing do voids your warranty. While they cannot physically restrain you from opening your Xbox, they can prevent you from using the modded Xbox on their network. Again, no one has cited the case law from the US or any other country saying that MS cannot limit access to THEIR NETWORK.

Your box and their network are two different things. Get to know the difference. Many others here have come to this understanding.

11123.5.2007 4:16
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]and you say backing up is "moot" how did you come to that conclusion? so you are saying you have never backed anything up,on your computer,recorded a TV show on your old VCR or DVD recorder?
No. I did not say that.

Quote:
i fail to understand how a modded box can allow you to cheat,that seems to be M$ main legal standing
No. The main legal standing is that MS is limiting access to THEIR NETWORK solely to unmodded Xboxes, as is their right. It doesn't matter what the purpose of the mod was. This is why I said the reasons for modding the Box are moot. Get it now?

Quote:
"so please enlighten me as to how you can cheat,even with a backed up copy?
The purpose of the mod doesn't matter. What MS is saying is that, for whatever reason you chose to mod your box, doing so will prevent you from going onto their network, just like doing do voids your warranty. While they cannot physically restrain you from opening your Xbox, they can prevent you from using the modded Xbox on their network. Again, no one has cited the case law from the US or any other country saying that MS cannot limit access to THEIR NETWORK.

Your box and their network are two different things. Get to know the difference. Many others here have come to this understanding.[/quote]
no.. no....you seem to be missing or not comprehending what people are trying to say.....in actual fact it states on their own site and is spoken on many a forums,they are banning modded boxes as they are detected,but in this whole proccess they are banning innocent people with legit 360's also.so what if someones console is modded,they are still paying for a service provided by M$,they aren't cheating,any in some instances they are not violating any laws,OK maybe laws made up by M$,themselves ,but, hey i bet you have broken a law or two :)
so seriously whats the problem apart from a verbal consent,they are still receiving subscritions from "pirates" and countries like mine that allow modding,bottom line is they just want modded consoles out of the scene,but luckily for other countries that are allowed to mod their consoles,would have a hard time in court,as i seriously doubt any infringements could be found,because a subscription fee has been payed by these so called cheaters,iv'e been told it's something like $10-$12(AUD)per month,payed quite happily by what M$ calls illegal 360's and the so called "pirates" of the world
your explanation for "moot" still doesn't hold up,not with me anyrate.
since no one has corrected me,i'm still under the assumption no-one has been banned from oz land,maybe there is something in that for you,to ponder,or chew on...
no offence is intended towards you,this is just my opinion on the matter.
why carry on (M$) when their revenue from live is still being payed by EVERYONE,well was, until they went silly,because they can't get their own way globally?

11223.5.2007 6:34

Quote:
they are banning modded boxes as they are detected,but in this whole proccess they are banning innocent people with legit 360's also
Not on purpose. Networks aren't perfect. Such is life.

Quote:
so what if someones console is modded,they are still paying for a service provided by M$,they aren't cheating,any in some instances they are not violating any laws,OK maybe laws made up by M$,themselves
Why do people keep believing that MS is the only one that does this?

Quote:
but, hey i bet you have broken a law or two :)
Irrelevant to this discussion.

Quote:
your explanation for "moot" still doesn't hold up,not with me anyrate.
Everyone else understood it well enough.

Quote:
i'm still under the assumption no-one has been banned from oz land
Yet in this very same post, you said people with legitimate Xboxes are being banned. Interesting.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 May 2007 @ 6:35

11323.5.2007 12:49

I totally understand that what MS puts in their contract, doesn't make it right or necessarily legal. However, like any business, Microsoft has the right to refuse their network service to anyone. It's ridiculous to think otherwise. (Btw, MS did not disable the network connection feature of your xbox, so IF there is another service provider, you will be able to connect to it).

About laws that make modding legal or whatever. Even if there is a law in some country that requires microsoft to allow modded xbox to xbl for whatever reason, why would microsoft agree to that? If any legal issue arises from that country, I'd imagine MS just back off and retract any service to that country.

11423.5.2007 12:51

They really just banned the mac addy of the 360 nic card. So your 360 cant access their network.

11523.5.2007 16:29

That was an exhausting read through this thread...

Service providers have many limitations on their service - which covers all types of services (cellular, cable, satellite, ISPs, etc.)

Are some of you suggesting that cell companies must allow you to use a modded cell phone - getting minutes for free or using someone else's account? Should the cable or dish provider allow you to use a modded cable box? Does your ISP allow you to modify your modem so you can share with all your neighbors? We have free speech here in America - should forums not be allowed to ban users? On a Toll Road, should you be able to drive thru without paying, just because you believe that roads should be a God given right?

With all of the private personal information passing through these services, I can't imagine companies risking exposure of that data to hackers. It is bad enough that identity fraud and theft is already out of control.

I am not accusing modded Xbox owners or anything, but it makes sense that a service provider can make rules that protect their network.

I remember the days when cable companies would come after people with modded cable boxes. They would shut off their service, no problem. They also changed the encryption, so modifed boxes would no longer work. What if you paid $500 for a modded box - can you force the cable company to keep the original encryption so you can use their service?

Service is something extended to you - not an inalienable right. If you choose to live by their rules and pay for the service, you get the service. If not, then no service.

It is true that contracts can be illegal and many people pursue these things in court. In many cases laws or rules are created for the greater good of all.

11623.5.2007 16:31
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]they are banning modded boxes as they are detected,but in this whole proccess they are banning innocent people with legit 360's also
Not on purpose. Networks aren't perfect. Such is life.

Quote:
so what if someones console is modded,they are still paying for a service provided by M$,they aren't cheating,any in some instances they are not violating any laws,OK maybe laws made up by M$,themselves
Why do people keep believing that MS is the only one that does this?

Quote:
but, hey i bet you have broken a law or two :)
Irrelevant to this discussion.

Quote:
your explanation for "moot" still doesn't hold up,not with me anyrate.
Everyone else understood it well enough.

Quote:
i'm still under the assumption no-one has been banned from oz land
Yet in this very same post, you said people with legitimate Xboxes are being banned. Interesting.[/quote]you are still skimming over the top mate...banning legit consoles is NO EXSCUSE,if they are going to perform these actions,for lawsuit reasons,they need to make sure their NETWORK is functioning CORRECTLY,thats one downside for a lawsuit.
secondly,M$ is the only one doing this,Sony has been there and done that with our high courts,they have remied their problems to avoid another high court procceding.
thirdly,my comment about you breaking a law or two is relevant,because this is what the whole discussion/debate is about...isn't it??
"moot" don't think anyone understood that,and i still don't,so if you wouldn't mind,please explain more clearly "moot"
and finally you say in my statement
Quote:
i'm still under the assumption no-one has been banned from oz land
Yet in this very same post, you said people with legitimate Xboxes are being banned. Interesting.[/quote]
what don't you understand about that,i was speaking in USA terms not my countries terms,to my belief NO-ONE has been banned in australia,modded or by mistake,to which should never happen in the first place for any COUNTRY..leaves M$wide open for a lawsuit,banning legit owners of 360's

11723.5.2007 16:41
samuels
Inactive

Originally posted by robtwilk:
That was an exhausting read through this thread...

Service providers have many limitations on their service - which covers all types of services (cellular, cable, satellite, ISPs, etc.)

Are some of you suggesting that cell companies must allow you to use a modded cell phone - getting minutes for free or using someone else's account? Should the cable or dish provider allow you to use a modded cable box? Does your ISP allow you to modify your modem so you can share with all your neighbors? We have free speech here in America - should forums not be allowed to ban users? On a Toll Road, should you be able to drive thru without paying, just because you believe that roads should be a God given right?

With all of the private personal information passing through these services, I can't imagine companies risking exposure of that data to hackers. It is bad enough that identity fraud and theft is already out of control.

I am not accusing modded Xbox owners or anything, but it makes sense that a service provider can make rules that protect their network.

I remember the days when cable companies would come after people with modded cable boxes. They would shut off their service, no problem. They also changed the encryption, so modifed boxes would no longer work. What if you paid $500 for a modded box - can you force the cable company to keep the original encryption so you can use their service?

Service is something extended to you - not an inalienable right. If you choose to live by their rules and pay for the service, you get the service. If not, then no service.

It is true that contracts can be illegal and many people pursue these things in court. In many cases laws or rules are created for the greater good of all.

we all know why M$ is doing it...plain and simple,to get rid of modded systems,their statement on their website ,said ...to get rid of "cheaters"and "modded" systems,i still can't work out how a person can cheat in a game,wheter it be a legit or modded system,call me dumb if you wish,but this is my understanding of M$ stance on all this banning

11823.5.2007 16:59
samuels
Inactive

this is from our live service

13. SERVICE OPERATION AND EQUIPMENT

"The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console or by logging into your account via Xbox.com. If you are accessing the Service via an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, you agree that you are using authorized software and hardware, and that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., authorized repairs, upgrades and downloads). Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, further sublicense, distribute or use for other purposes either the hardware or software associated with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console or the Service, is strictly prohibited and may result in cancellation of your account and/or your ability to access the Service via your original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, and the pursuit of other legal remedies by Microsoft. Microsoft may take any legal action it deems appropriate against users who violate Microsoft’s systems or network security or this contract or any additional terms as described in Section 2 above, and such users may also incur criminal and/or civil liability.

Microsoft reserves complete and sole discretion with respect to the operation of the Service. Microsoft may, among other things: (a) restrict or limit access to the Service; (b) retrieve information from the original Xbox or Xbox 360 console and any connected peripheral device used to log onto the Service as necessary to operate and protect the security of the Service, and to enforce this Agreement; and (c) upgrade, modify, withdraw, suspend, or discontinue any functionality or feature of the Service or any game from time to time without notice, which may involve the automatic download of related software directly to your original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, and which software may prevent your original Xbox or Xbox 360 console from accessing the Service, playing pirated games, or using unauthorized peripheral devices."


here we are authorized to modify our consoles by law,not by M$...so this can be very questionable in a court of law,as all live subcribers are playing legit(even with a modded console)they are still paying for a service.
now i haven't looked on any other M$ sites(country relevant) to see if the wording is the same,i'll get round to it sometime.

11923.5.2007 17:02
samuels
Inactive

Originally posted by samuels:
this is from our live service

13. SERVICE OPERATION AND EQUIPMENT

"The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console or by logging into your account via Xbox.com. If you are accessing the Service via an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, you agree that you are using authorized software and hardware, and that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., authorized repairs, upgrades and downloads). Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, further sublicense, distribute or use for other purposes either the hardware or software associated with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console or the Service, is strictly prohibited and may result in cancellation of your account and/or your ability to access the Service via your original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, and the pursuit of other legal remedies by Microsoft. Microsoft may take any legal action it deems appropriate against users who violate Microsoft’s systems or network security or this contract or any additional terms as described in Section 2 above, and such users may also incur criminal and/or civil liability.

Microsoft reserves complete and sole discretion with respect to the operation of the Service. Microsoft may, among other things: (a) restrict or limit access to the Service; (b) retrieve information from the original Xbox or Xbox 360 console and any connected peripheral device used to log onto the Service as necessary to operate and protect the security of the Service, and to enforce this Agreement; and (c) upgrade, modify, withdraw, suspend, or discontinue any functionality or feature of the Service or any game from time to time without notice, which may involve the automatic download of related software directly to your original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, and which software may prevent your original Xbox or Xbox 360 console from accessing the Service, playing pirated games, or using unauthorized peripheral devices."


here we are authorized to modify our consoles by law,not by M$...so this can be very questionable in a court of law,especially if a person is using original games on live,even though the 360 has been modified,sure if people go taking games and sublicencing them out,etc,etc,they deserve to get banned,but in reality,who is really going to do this?as all live subcribers are playing legit(even with a modded console)they are still paying for a service.
now i haven't looked on any other M$ sites(country relevant) to see if the wording is the same,i'll get round to it sometime.

12023.5.2007 17:05
samuels
Inactive

sorry for the double post....i meant to hit edit tab,but instead hit qoute tab....once again my apoligies

12123.5.2007 17:16

double post o.O

More like quintuple post! LOL :P



12224.5.2007 9:07

Is it really possible to cheat on a game using a modified Xbox 360?

I have always thought that some people in Halo 2 and now Halo 3 were a little tougher than I expected. Shoot a guy ten times and he doesn't die - they shoot you once and you're dead.

It's possible I'm just horrible at Halo, but my son is awesome and he has the same problems. He asks me if they're cheating and I tell him you can't cheat online. Maybe you can...

12324.5.2007 11:09

Originally posted by robtwilk:
Is it really possible to cheat on a game using a modified Xbox 360?

I have always thought that some people in Halo 2 and now Halo 3 were a little tougher than I expected. Shoot a guy ten times and he doesn't die - they shoot you once and you're dead.

It's possible I'm just horrible at Halo, but my son is awesome and he has the same problems. He asks me if they're cheating and I tell him you can't cheat online. Maybe you can...
Cheating on MP games is not new and since the Xbox and 360 use MS products as a base to run its "easy" to hack it to cheat,I find MPing almost pointless so cheating on a MP game is beyond stupid IMO

12424.5.2007 12:10

Quote:
so this can be very questionable in a court of law,as all live subcribers are playing legit(even with a modded console)they are still paying for a service.
You go right on ahead and keep thinking that. I'm tired of talking past you.

12524.5.2007 12:30

so this can be very questionable in a court of law,as all live subcribers are playing legit(even with a modded console)they are still paying for a service.



Not really you break the rules of the EULA and you can be tossed ,ever play wow? they are nazistic on abuse warnings and temp ban people for days just because of reports.
you can lose a months worth of play time just for ticking off some people,I do not know if its better now adays but...meh.

12624.5.2007 15:25
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]so this can be very questionable in a court of law,as all live subcribers are playing legit(even with a modded console)they are still paying for a service.
You go right on ahead and keep thinking that. I'm tired of talking past you.[/quote]you are the one having difficulties my friend...i'm also getting tired of discussing it with you as well.

do a hunt round,you will come up with something i'm sure,there is supposedly a fix,coming to the way of the modded box, this weekend,keep an eye out,not that it worries me,as i don't play live.
i have been informed that several people here in oz land have been disabled from live,due to a flashed drive,they are making enquiries with M$ today,so they have stirred up some trouble all round,they have just shot themselves in the foot....accept it,M$ have stuffed up,also accept that a fix is on the way.

12724.5.2007 15:26

This is seems pretty straight forward to me, but I'm no lawyer:

An EULA is a legal contract between the manufacturer and/or the author and the end user of an application (service). The EULA details how the software (service) can and cannot be used and any restrictions that the manufacturer imposes.

Not every EULA is the same. In all instances, the user has the option of not accepting the EULA, subsequently surrendering the rights and ability to use the software (service).

As in typical legal contracts, the EULA protects both parties from liability if the software (service) is used in a way not intended by the manufacturer or author.


M$'s agreement is pretty clear how they feel about modified consoles. Would it be better if M$ banned all Live users from countries that had laws that would invalidate the contract? At least in this case, users with non-modded boxes can use the service.

I'm not M$ fan by any means... But I think they have a valid arguement against modified consoles.

12824.5.2007 15:35
samuels
Inactive

Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:
so this can be very questionable in a court of law,as all live subcribers are playing legit(even with a modded console)they are still paying for a service.



Not really you break the rules of the EULA and you can be tossed ,ever play wow? they are nazistic on abuse warnings and temp ban people for days just because of reports.
you can lose a months worth of play time just for ticking off some people,I do not know if its better now adays but...meh.

this is the point,how many people ARE REALLY abusing people,stalking them,sure it happens,and as stated before,this should not be tolerated,and a ban should be placed,also from what i hear,most people play online with friends,rarely playing with complete strangers over the other side of the world,but thats not the issue here,M$ says it is,but it's not,you know it and i know it,it's all about,because someone worked out how to hack their supposed unbreakeable code to play back-ups.
it has been reported that a well known hacker, has found out(high possibility) of how they are doing it,it has nothing to do with drive flashing.

12924.5.2007 15:42
samuels
Inactive

Originally posted by robtwilk:
This is seems pretty straight forward to me, but I'm no lawyer:

An EULA is a legal contract between the manufacturer and/or the author and the end user of an application (service). The EULA details how the software (service) can and cannot be used and any restrictions that the manufacturer imposes.

Not every EULA is the same. In all instances, the user has the option of not accepting the EULA, subsequently surrendering the rights and ability to use the software (service).

As in typical legal contracts, the EULA protects both parties from liability if the software (service) is used in a way not intended by the manufacturer or author.


M$'s agreement is pretty clear how they feel about modified consoles. Would it be better if M$ banned all Live users from countries that had laws that would invalidate the contract? At least in this case, users with non-modded boxes can use the service.

I'm not M$ fan by any means... But I think they have a valid arguement against modified consoles.


sure in your country....the way backups are made today,are exact replicas of the original,with all the security sectors in the same place as the original disc,M$ signed codes as well,etc.
they don't have valid arguments in countries that allow modded consoles

1301.6.2007 4:27

Samuels

It is very obvious that you ( and many others here) do not understand:

1. The Law (of most every country including yours and the country of origin USA)
2. Agreements between parties. (Like an EULA)

The EULA spells it out pretty clearly and by purchasing the XBOX360 and subscribing to live you agree to the policies in the EULA, you are not forced to use the Live service and it is not required for a good experience with the 360 itself.

It is YOUR choice to use the Live service.

You lose nothing in value if you cannot access the Live service.

You may be free to mod a 360 to your hearts content in your country (or any country for that matter) but that has nothing to do with the case at hand.

MS is not stopping you from modding your hardware, they are stopping you from using a modified console to access their network. This is clearly defined in the EULA.

I do not understand how you keep missing this point.
Your argument is like a temper tantrum.. "but I wannaaaaaa...."

You seem to want to hide behind.. "well how can they cheat" "and backups are ok" "so what if someone is cheating" and "its my money I paid.." kind of like many 12 year old thought patterns, and you keep completely missing the crux of the isssue.

MS$ could give two craps if you use backups or you "cheat", they care about the integrety of their Live Network.

THAT IS ALL!

Other arguments here are better describing the WHY they care about their network and you completely glossed over them, so I wont't rehash here, but reread a few of eandtc posts and you'll maybe start to grasp it.

You use hardware that may compromise that network and that hardware is no longer wanted on the network.. simple.

None of your rights have been violated.

You also seem to be under the assumption that by banning some "innocent" users that MS opens themselves to a lawsuit, you are clearly not knowledgeable of the laws in your own country.

Your argument amounts to a preteen being punished and a subsequent lashout.



oh and one more thing... learn how to quote correctly eh?

1311.6.2007 4:35
samuels
Inactive

Originally posted by gormly:
Samuels

It is very obvious that you ( and many others here) do not understand:

1. The Law (of most every country including yours and the country of origin USA)
2. Agreements between parties. (Like an EULA)

The EULA spells it out pretty clearly and by purchasing the XBOX360 and subscribing to live you agree to the policies in the EULA, you are not forced to use the Live service and it is not required for a good experience with the 360 itself.

It is YOUR choice to use the Live service.

You lose nothing in value if you cannot access the Live service.

You may be free to mod a 360 to your hearts content in your country (or any country for that matter) but that has nothing to do with the case at hand.

MS is not stopping you from modding your hardware, they are stopping you from using a modified console to access their network. This is clearly defined in the EULA.

I do not understand how you keep missing this point.
Your argument is like a temper tantrum.. "but I wannaaaaaa...."

You seem to want to hide behind.. "well how can they cheat" "and backups are ok" "so what if someone is cheating" and "its my money I paid.." kind of like many 12 year old thought patterns, and you keep completely missing the crux of the isssue.

MS$ could give two craps if you use backups or you "cheat", they care about the integrety of their Live Network.

THAT IS ALL!

Other arguments here are better describing the WHY they care about their network and you completely glossed over them, so I wont't rehash here, but reread a few of eandtc posts and you'll maybe start to grasp it.

You use hardware that may compromise that network and that hardware is no longer wanted on the network.. simple.

None of your rights have been violated.

You also seem to be under the assumption that by banning some "innocent" users that MS opens themselves to a lawsuit, you are clearly not knowledgeable of the laws in your own country.

Your argument amounts to a preteen being punished and a subsequent lashout.



oh and one more thing... learn how to quote correctly eh?
now you say we whinge,some may some don't...me personally i don't give a flying razoo about XBL my point was that we are allowed to do as we see fit with our consoles,I.E mod them,to play original imports,but those days are long gone....
i did this out of curiousty,i have been on XBL since last posting on here,so,something is not right at M$'s end
so to reitterate,i made it a point that it was not only modded boxes getting banned,it was legit ones as well,i also stated that i am not into XBL.furthermore if you were reffering to me how to learn to quote,you learn how to read the complete forum....booowhoooo about quoting.
PS,,,i'm not literate about my laws in my country eh....you should never ever say something like that,unless you can back it up!!
also you seem to think M$ is immune to lawsuits for a failure of service to the innocent,i think you had better wake up and move on out of fantasy land my friend,it's just like someone suing you for a service you neglect to a customer...what ever it maybe.
and furthermore you are "lashing" out.
if i was an xbox live subscriber and i was banned for no reason what so ever,i think my rights have been violated,as i (if i was subscribed-but i'm not,like stated previously) my rights would have been violated.it's just like me pulling you up in a vehicle,take a look at you and the vehicle,come to a conclusion,ask for your licence,not give it back,inform you that your licence is now effectively suspended,until you get what ever i wrote you up for.....i bet you'd cry ...hey you can't do that,thats violating my rights/civil liberties,because you didn't do anything wrong.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 Jun 2007 @ 4:46

1321.6.2007 4:53
morguex
Inactive

Thanks you Gormly

It seems no matter how clear you make things to some people, they just don't get it.

Nothing personal Samuels, but when your wrong your just plain old wrong.
Anyway I think this issue has been beaten to death.
Let it rest in peace.
Peace all

1331.6.2007 7:47
davidrose
Inactive

Originally posted by morguex:
Thanks you Gormly

It seems no matter how clear you make things to some people, they just don't get it.

Nothing personal Samuels, but when your wrong your just plain old wrong.
Anyway I think this issue has been beaten to death.
Let it rest in peace.
Peace all
Exactly right... The nerve of some not to see it “MY WAY” lol, funny I believe in (Freedom) so much in that I fought killed and was willing to die for this, The Right for everyone to believe the way they wish, Doesn’t mean I have to agree or approve just the freedom to do so, it is very precious that blood is being spilt and lives lost.
On Topic:
I think my 5.3 is still online I only played my backups 4 or 5 months ago will wait awhile to try it if I get banned I will get another 360 and play that one online with orginals.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 Jun 2007 @ 7:55

1341.6.2007 13:51
samuels
Inactive

Originally posted by morguex:
Thanks you Gormly

It seems no matter how clear you make things to some people, they just don't get it.

Nothing personal Samuels, but when your wrong your just plain old wrong.
Anyway I think this issue has been beaten to death.
Let it rest in peace.
Peace all
OK tell me where i am wrong..in law,fair enough about the EULA,even though ours is worded slightly different than the USA's(from memory)but it still implies the same thing,i was talking about the "innocent people getting banned from XBL,thats where my issues came in about M$ liable for a lawsuit,good on you if you can get away with a flashed drive without M$ detecting it,i also stated i was not into XBL.i understood everyones post,but not one reffered to the innocent users,and why did they get banned?you can make up any exscuses you want,but M$ stuffed up big time.you want it rested,fine by me,but i believe that at least i'm not ignorant to the fact at hand for the terms of service for the innocent,and there has been quite a few banned...care to elaborate on this issue?

1351.6.2007 14:11

If you did not mod your 360 and got banned, that's a different story. Microsoft needs to be responsible for restoring their service. Though, it's up to each individual to contact xbl service. It's not enough to say microsoft should allow all modded xbox on, because they mistakenly banned 1 or 2 un-modded ones

1361.6.2007 14:21
samuels
Inactive

Originally posted by blackvamp:
If you did not mod your 360 and got banned, that's a different story. Microsoft needs to be responsible for restoring their service. Though, it's up to each individual to contact xbl service. It's not enough to say microsoft should allow all modded xbox on, because they mistakenly banned 1 or 2 un-modded ones

they have contacted microsoft,sent in their consoles,have had them returned,some to find that they had been given back a modded xbox 360,and the ban still in place...wheres the justice in that?they have to just chance it and hope like buggery that they can get unbanned sometime down the track,or at least keep sending their consoles back in until they get one that will connect,(not as rare as some people may think-this issue)

1371.6.2007 14:35

Quote:
they have contacted microsoft,sent in their consoles,have had them returned,some to find that they had been given back a modded xbox 360,and the ban still in place...
Wow. I found that highly unbelievable. Have you/your close friend personally experienced it? Or is it one of those "I've read/heard it from someone's friend's friend" deal? I mean think about it, why would ms do that? If you really sent in an un-modded xbox in, why wouldn't they just unlock it from banned list rather than go through all the trouble of modding it for you? Swapping your good xbox with a defective one and claiming it's the one you had, is considered fraud. It just doesn't make sense to them to do that.

1381.6.2007 14:38
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]they have contacted microsoft,sent in their consoles,have had them returned,some to find that they had been given back a modded xbox 360,and the ban still in place...
Wow. I found that highly unbelievable. Have you/your close friend personally experienced it? Or is it one of those "I've read/heard it from someone's friend's friend" deal? I mean think about it, why would ms do that? If you really sent in an un-modded xbox in, why wouldn't they just unlock it from banned list rather than go through all the trouble of modding it for you? Swapping your good xbox with a defective one and claiming it's the one you had, is considered fraud. It just doesn't make sense to them to do that.[/quote]


do a search on this forum you will find it,i knew i would get a response like this....do a search on afterdawn and you will find it :)

have a read through this...PM the chappy that made the statement,he may well be able to shed some more light on this matter for you.

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/29/509709#3118590
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 Jun 2007 @ 14:41

1391.6.2007 14:42
davidrose
Inactive

I have read a few posts in a few forums here and there, of some buying second hand and not realizing they where in jeopardy, also some insisting they hadn’t modded and switched to the original too late they already caught them when it was modded. Not at all a M$ fanboy but people do tell tales out of school.

1401.6.2007 14:51

I think the issue with receiving a modded xbox back, in return for an unmodded one is that microsloth(sp) recons exisiting XBs for exchange, they don't send new.
In all probability, some modded ones are slipping into the exchange pool, passing QC and going back out as intact.
not having experienced it first hand on an XB product, but from other manufacturers , this is of course a hypothesis

1411.6.2007 14:53
morguex
Inactive

Samuels maybe in Australia you are allowed to mod your 360, thats all well and good for you.
Now maybe I'm wrong about this next part, but MS is based in the U.S. and i assume you are accessing there servers through the U.S. which means you have to abide by the EULA rules in the U.S.
Which means when you sign up for XBL, you have agreed to the rules and regulations of EULA in the U.S.(if i'm totaly wrong skip first paragraph and go to 2nd paragraph) ;-)

But if you really wanna get annoyed at anyone, maybe you should get annoyed at the people who mod their 360's and then try and access the XBL network and then bitch and whine that they got banned, because they are the true reason why all this crap is happening in the first place.
As for the people with legit 360's getting banned, let them prove it first and if they did get banned then they have a legit beef with MS and should follow through with getting there 360's allowed back on the network.
Anyway I've had enough of this discussion.
Peace all

1421.6.2007 14:56

Quote:
do a search on this forum you will find it,i knew i would get a response like this....do a search on afterdawn and you will find it :)

have a read through this...PM the chappy that made the statement,he may well be able to shed some more light on this matter for you.
Quote:
dont tell them anything, they usually dont scan them for firmwares or anything they just check to see if its been opened and they may not check to see, just send it to them and if they contact you telling you that you have to pay to fix it then tell them you want it back unrepaired.
Quote:
Just so you know this before you move on. If you send in your Xbox to MS for repair there is a good chance that you will not even get the same 360 back. They are know for just sending you out one that they have already refurbished. So you may get another modded system and you may not. There is really no telling what you will get back.
LOL...the guy is just making up a scenario, and you are taking it as a factual event. The biggest concern I see in that thread is someone sending in their modded box, and having it returned "fixed", which is understandable, but there's nothing in your link to support your case at all.

[EDIT]

Decided to look on the next page, and found this:
Quote:
Heck people with unmodded consoles have been banned. (or at least they thought it was unmodded which could be faulse if they bought it used somewhere like Ebay)
Yet ANOTHER plausible scenario to explain these supposed "innocent bannings". It's looking worse for you. XD
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 Jun 2007 @ 15:06

1431.6.2007 15:31
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]do a search on this forum you will find it,i knew i would get a response like this....do a search on afterdawn and you will find it :)

have a read through this...PM the chappy that made the statement,he may well be able to shed some more light on this matter for you.
Quote:
dont tell them anything, they usually dont scan them for firmwares or anything they just check to see if its been opened and they may not check to see, just send it to them and if they contact you telling you that you have to pay to fix it then tell them you want it back unrepaired.
Quote:
Just so you know this before you move on. If you send in your Xbox to MS for repair there is a good chance that you will not even get the same 360 back. They are know for just sending you out one that they have already refurbished. So you may get another modded system and you may not. There is really no telling what you will get back.
LOL...the guy is just making up a scenario, and you are taking it as a factual event. The biggest concern I see in that thread is someone sending in their modded box, and having it returned "fixed", which is understandable, but there's nothing in your link to support your case at all.

[EDIT]

Decided to look on the next page, and found this:
Quote:
Heck people with unmodded consoles have been banned. (or at least they thought it was unmodded which could be faulse if they bought it used somewhere like Ebay)
Yet ANOTHER plausible scenario to explain these supposed "innocent bannings". It's looking worse for you. XD[/quote]


did you ask him if it was a scenario?sure iv'e heard it on the net,but surely not everyone lies,check all the forums,check out maxconsole,here(afterdawn),xboxscene,etc,etc,

1441.6.2007 15:44

Quote:
"did you ask him if it was a scenario?"
Uhm, this is YOUR proof. YOU ask him before citing his comments as FACT.

Quote:
sure iv'e heard it on the net,but surely not everyone lies
Your weak attempt at making a truism still is not proof. Get your own facts straight before attempting to tell everyone else what's what. Seems a simple concept to me.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 Jun 2007 @ 15:44

1451.6.2007 16:26

Looks like I have missed absolutely nothing in this thread, how fun :)



1461.6.2007 16:30
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]"did you ask him if it was a scenario?"
Uhm, this is YOUR proof. YOU ask him before citing his comments as FACT.

Quote:
sure iv'e heard it on the net,but surely not everyone lies
Your weak attempt at making a truism still is not proof. Get your own facts straight before attempting to tell everyone else what's what. Seems a simple concept to me.[/quote]



no it's a link....by no means is it my proof,you want to know,ask him/her yourself....i have several friends that have had their 360's replaced with refurbished ones,whether it was returned flashed,i cannot say,reason, i never asked.as for me getting my facts straight,you find them yourself...i have nothing to prove in this scenario....the way you are coming accross is that you are implying all internet users liars!!
PS...i would have to ask him for permission before i cited the said poster for it to be fact,to place in this section,something to which i am not going to do,you want to know...bottom line is do a search,make up your own mind,before calling me a liar or me trying to back up my claims...

so just get over it,so what if i'm wrong,so what if your wrong,are we not allowed to express an opinion on a forum without turning it into a slanging match?who cares who's right or wrong,most of us have done searches on this topic,and we have all come up with different answers...
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 Jun 2007 @ 16:38

1472.6.2007 4:22

Quote:
"you are implying all internet users liars!!
No.

Quote:
calling me a liar
Yes.

Quote:
so just get over it,so what if i'm wrong,so what if your wrong,are we not allowed to express an opinion on a forum without turning it into a slanging match?who cares who's right or wrong,most of us have done searches on this topic,and we have all come up with different answers...
Quote:
Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests - we did. But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but I for one am not going to stand here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 Jun 2007 @ 4:30

1482.6.2007 4:30
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]"you are implying all internet users liars!!
No.

Quote:
calling me a liar
Yes.[/quote]


so your lying too then...point made
i believe you to be a liar too,why should i believe a word you say,another point made...so 2 of us are lying,so that means the rest of the world is lying....
you may find some interesting reading here,at least they aren't bitching,and accept what each other has to say,and accept the fact that they have been banned,also states what i have mentioned about refurbished 360's sent back already flashed....go figure huh....they must be lying too.
http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2007/05/18/...anned-from-live

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?s...=330&p=3996481&
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 Jun 2007 @ 4:39

1492.6.2007 16:25
davidrose
Inactive

Originally posted by svtstang:
Looks like I have missed absolutely nothing in this thread, how fun :)

Wish all this was constructive in some way..

1502.6.2007 16:27
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
Originally posted by svtstang:
Looks like I have missed absolutely nothing in this thread, how fun :)

Wish all this was constructive in some way..

well learn how to comprehend :)
nothing in this world is ever really constructive,as no-one ever believes anyone,they just like to spit and spatter....thats life

1512.6.2007 23:41
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]"you are implying all internet users liars!!
No.

Quote:
calling me a liar
Yes.

Quote:
so just get over it,so what if i'm wrong,so what if your wrong,are we not allowed to express an opinion on a forum without turning it into a slanging match?who cares who's right or wrong,most of us have done searches on this topic,and we have all come up with different answers...
Quote:
Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests - we did. But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but I for one am not going to stand here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!



you accept that what M$ has done is good,i'm not really denying that either,but the way you speak about it,can you honestly say to me,that you haven't breached someone elses copyrighted material,like downloading music(artists permission) and movies(MPIAA)i'm not sure if i have that organisations name right,even cammers,if you say you don't,your a liar...see my point now.everyone has done something like this at one stage or another,and are quite possibly still doing so.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Jun 2007 @ 0:41

1523.6.2007 6:42
davidrose
Inactive

Quote:

well learn how to comprehend :)
nothing in this world is ever really constructive,as no-one ever believes anyone,they just like to spit and spatter....thats life

Yeah ok then...
So that may be for you, and the way you see it, but your not going to win, of course everyone copied a movie on a vcr from TV and recorded a song off the radio, The argument is old, and I know that you know that. Sorry at you if you think life isn’t constructive, sorry that’s life.
:edit for quote
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Jun 2007 @ 6:46

1533.6.2007 7:50

Quote:
but the way you speak about it,can you honestly say to me,that you haven't breached someone elses copyrighted material
What I said about this then:

Quote:
You: but, hey i bet you have broken a law or two :)

Me: Irrelevant to this discussion.
What I say about this now:

Quote:
well learn how to comprehend :)

1543.6.2007 9:52

*hopefully changeing the direction of the thread*

its nice to see MGS4 heading to the 360 ,lets hope FF dose as well :X

1553.6.2007 15:28
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
You: but, hey i bet you have broken a law or two :)

it is relavent to this discussion

What I say about this now:

[quote]well learn how to comprehend :)
[/
you need to learn comprhension too


1)...you completely missed my point,it may of seemed i was whining about XBL...sorry if i sounded like that...FACT...i stated..i'm not into live...
2)FACT...i also stated,i have a tendency to agree with you,but people were/are still getting banned with legit 360's,opening up a pandoras box(not the word i used i know,but it still means the same)for M$
3)there is an internet protocol....which no-one uses including you(once again iv'e stated this,but not in this wording)so therefore is relevant to this discussion,i called you a liar,as i bet you have downloaded music content or illegal/non released movies,including cammers(once again,i didn't word it like this,but still means the same thing)..breaking internet protocol...
and finally,i also stated that....sure people with modded boxes use live,i stated, M$'s response to the bannings were to eliminate modded boxes,then as you or someone else stated...cheating,abuse,etc....Fact...i agreed that cheating and abuse shouldn't be tolerated,but as for modded boxes,i stated,that i thought it unfair,as the person with the modded box,still payed for the service,especially where a console is allowed to be modded,to which i stated,could make a good case in a court of law,as M$ will have to prove that the person was using a back up,YES i know what the EULA states,but that is the falling point,i believe in countries that are allowed to mod their consoles,...thats my opinion,am i not allowed an opinion? and defend that opinion?
FACT...i also stated,i am not right,and that you aren't right...yet you still fail to comprehend my point...
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Jun 2007 @ 15:34

1563.6.2007 15:33
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]
well learn how to comprehend :)
nothing in this world is ever really constructive,as no-one ever believes anyone,they just like to spit and spatter....thats life

Yeah ok then...
So that may be for you, and the way you see it, but your not going to win, of course everyone copied a movie on a vcr from TV and recorded a song off the radio, The argument is old, and I know that you know that. Sorry at you if you think life isn’t constructive, sorry that’s life.
:edit for quote[/quote]
why does it have to be a winnig match....i'm not out to win,thats for sure,see you mis understood my post,or it went straight over your head...i stated, music,movies and cammers,not radio and TV,but if you want to get technical,that is illegal too,well here, where i am from,but to put it in a court of law,is pointless as it isn't policed,strange i know,but like you say,it's an old argument,and so is our law on this,and hasn't been updated...

1573.6.2007 15:44

samuels
any chance of a hack/mod group making some good single player based cheats?
it dose not seem like any 3rd party cheat devices will be coming anytime soon for it.

1583.6.2007 16:26

As for innocent people being banned, 99% of them are idiots claiming that they didnt mod it when its very obvious that they have. xbox.com has loads of people claiming they have legit boxes and yet in their recently played list they have games that arent even out yet, they are just trying to get M$ to unban them. The other 1% are people unlucky enough to get a refurbished console that already had a firmware mod on it, the fact that these consoles will have the warranty sticker intact (Yes I know if you try you can get it off then put it back on) so they will replace them.

1593.6.2007 17:32
samuels
Inactive

Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:
samuels
any chance of a hack/mod group making some good single player based cheats?
it dose not seem like any 3rd party cheat devices will be coming anytime soon for it.



i dunno edited by ddp....you tell me
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Jun 2007 @ 18:58

1603.6.2007 17:39
samuels
Inactive

Originally posted by Andrew691:
As for innocent people being banned, 99% of them are idiots claiming that they didnt mod it when its very obvious that they have. xbox.com has loads of people claiming they have legit boxes and yet in their recently played list they have games that arent even out yet, they are just trying to get M$ to unban them. The other 1% are people unlucky enough to get a refurbished console that already had a firmware mod on it, the fact that these consoles will have the warranty sticker intact (Yes I know if you try you can get it off then put it back on) so they will replace them.

M$ are having issues with the earlier xbox 360's,they are refurbishing them with out checking the firmware,and sending them back out to the general population.why don't you phone M$ your self and find out.
do you see the modders bitching about being banned?i haven't,what i have seen is that they are determined to beat M$ at their own game,and so far they have,with a new fix out.
i was at my place of purchase of my 360,and there were people there to pick up their consoles,the salesmen were informing them,that their consoles were being replaced with refurbished ones as theirs was completely buggered...now it's up to you whether you believe that or not.

1613.6.2007 17:49

Quote:
samuels
any chance of a hack/mod group making some good single player based cheats?
it dose not seem like any 3rd party cheat devices will be coming anytime soon for it.
Quote:
i dunno edited by ddp....you tell me
ROTFLMAO! XD

Quote:
well learn how to comprehend :)
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Jun 2007 @ 18:58

1623.6.2007 17:58
samuels
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]samuels
any chance of a hack/mod group making some good single player based cheats?
it dose not seem like any 3rd party cheat devices will be coming anytime soon for it.
Quote:
i dunno edited by ddp....you tell me
ROTFLMAO! XD

Quote:
well learn how to comprehend :)
[/quote]

i'm sorry to say ...but you are an edited by ddp...sorry ,but if you can't read properly,it's no use flogging a dead horse.
obvious you don't have a sense of humor either
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Jun 2007 @ 19:02

1633.6.2007 18:34

yeeesshhhh what is it mods week off?


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

1643.6.2007 19:00

samuels, lightning struck!!! posts edited

1654.6.2007 5:30

Or shall we say....."modded"? :D

(I crack myself up)

1665.6.2007 15:35
canofan24
Inactive

this is not ebay. edited by ddp

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 12 Jun 2007 @ 15:24

1675.6.2007 20:57
davidrose
Inactive

Originally posted by eandtc:
Or shall we say....."modded"? :D

(I crack myself up)
LOL, too much, looks like someone missed the topic, and the humor.

1685.6.2007 21:00

Quote:
Originally posted by eandtc:
Or shall we say....."modded"? :D

(I crack myself up)
LOL, too much, looks like someone missed the topic, and the humor.
when you rant like that for 3 or so pages people are going to report you for flameing....

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

1695.6.2007 21:12

LOL I soooooo agree with Zippy! We have not seen eye to eye at times (aka the Final Fantasy thread), but I still respect his opinions. The problem here is that some arse holes dont realize we are debating over something as lame as consoles, and get too caught up being right. IMO samuels should be gone, he went a few steps over the line and personally attacked people for opinions on a console which differed from his own. Lame.



1706.6.2007 0:40

Quote:
LOL, too much, looks like someone missed the topic, and the humor.
I'm guessing you are referring to dpp, since it was a mod who banned him, not I.

Fact is, samuels was getting so touchy as to be jumping at shadows. ZIppyDSM asked him a legitimate question, and samuels overreacted. If there was any humor in that exchange, it was unintentional.

1716.6.2007 0:56
surtees
Inactive

Originally posted by svtstang:
LOL I soooooo agree with Zippy! We have not seen eye to eye at times (aka the Final Fantasy thread), but I still respect his opinions. The problem here is that some arse holes dont realize we are debating over something as lame as consoles, and get too caught up being right. IMO samuels should be gone, he went a few steps over the line and personally attacked people for opinions on a console which differed from his own. Lame.

i have read all these pages.*phew*some make some valid points,but i couldn't help notice the slack comments thrown at samuels,IMO he made some very valid points,if you take the time to think,instead of racing for the keyboard just to shoot someone down,you speak of arse holes on here,well i can name a few straight up,and you are one of them for making such flaming remarks,i dont think he went over the line,i say eandtc,david rose,ZippyDSM and yourself did,you slagged off/flamed more than what samuels did,unless i missed something whilst reading this forum,i did not see any statement,that his console was different from anyone elses,and as for the mod, DDP ,bloke i really think you need to get a life,i think the mod "status" has gone to your brain.

1726.6.2007 1:13
surtees
Inactive

you all asked samuels to back up his claims that unmodded xbox 360 consoles were being banned on live as well.
Why don't you all go back to page one and read what someone else claimed,they claimed the same as samuels,but not one person demanded "proof" .
heres some information for you,i have had an xbox 360 go bung on me,it was sent back to microsoft,it was returned,and some 2-3 weeks later i started to get the red rings of death,i phoned microsoft support,they asked me for the serial number,the customer support rep had said to me,thats the third time that machines been in,for the exact same problem,my reply was-you are joking aren't you.Question-how could it of been in three times?when i haven't had any problems up until the first and only time for me.
Answer-I got back a refurbished xbox 360

1736.6.2007 5:52

Originally posted by surtees:
you all asked samuels to back up his claims that unmodded xbox 360 consoles were being banned on live as well.
Why don't you all go back to page one and read what someone else claimed,they claimed the same as samuels,but not one person demanded "proof" .
heres some information for you,i have had an xbox 360 go bung on me,it was sent back to microsoft,it was returned,and some 2-3 weeks later i started to get the red rings of death,i phoned microsoft support,they asked me for the serial number,the customer support rep had said to me,thats the third time that machines been in,for the exact same problem,my reply was-you are joking aren't you.Question-how could it of been in three times?when i haven't had any problems up until the first and only time for me.
Answer-I got back a refurbished xbox 360

=================================================
some of what he said was truthful but but the convo degenerated some and the name calling did not help.

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

1746.6.2007 6:07

Originally posted by svtstang:
LOL I soooooo agree with Zippy! We have not seen eye to eye at times (aka the Final Fantasy thread), but I still respect his opinions. The problem here is that some arse holes dont realize we are debating over something as lame as consoles, and get too caught up being right. IMO samuels should be gone, he went a few steps over the line and personally attacked people for opinions on a console which differed from his own. Lame.
might want to check it again I posted about FF12 since I got a hold of it,same BS from the last few games the equipment and skill system are crippled and and drowned (had a dream abotu it Balthiar having Edgar's skills form FF6) the world/level design is solid enough and the VAing/dialog is one of the best in game dubing but the game play itself is lacking and the live action battles only make them faster not better... all in all better than 8 and X but not better than the the classic FF style(4,6,9),7 was the only solid "new type" FF I could like the rest seem hobbled togather.
(ack I hit preview and not post last night)
edit
a link to the FF thread
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/23/198402#3132833
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 Jun 2007 @ 12:21

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

1756.6.2007 7:25

Quote:
Why don't you all go back to page one and read what someone else claimed,they claimed the same as samuels,but not one person demanded "proof" .
If you would be so kind as to go back and read my posts, you would see I was asking for proof about the so-called laws he was claiming existed. He named one, but refused to go into specifics. Go figure.

As to refurbished 360's, I have no doubt this can happen, as well as un-modded Xboxes getting banned as well, but these are certainly the exception, not the rule, and automatically screaming "lawsuit" is a touch much. It just got to the point where samuels was just pulling stuff out of his butt and presenting it as fact, and that gets tiresome. YMMV.

1766.6.2007 7:42

Quote:
[quote]Why don't you all go back to page one and read what someone else claimed,they claimed the same as samuels,but not one person demanded "proof" .
If you would be so kind as to go back and read my posts, you would see I was asking for proof about the so-called laws he was claiming existed. He named one, but refused to go into specifics. Go figure.

As to refurbished 360's, I have no doubt this can happen, as well as un-modded Xboxes getting banned as well, but these are certainly the exception, not the rule, and automatically screaming "lawsuit" is a touch much. It just got to the point where samuels was just pulling stuff out of his butt and presenting it as fact, and that gets tiresome. YMMV.[/quote]
============================================================
Not to mention empty boxs for returned to suer RMAs MS is so large it can happen,the 360 is still a bit wonky hardware wise for my tastes but its solid enough.

1776.6.2007 16:04
surtees
Inactive

some of what he said was truthful but but the convo degenerated some and the name calling did not help.[/quote]All i can see,what samuels said was,that some people weren't comprehending the points that were being made.
I didn't see samuels call you or anyone else an "arse hole"
If you didn't like what samuels was saying why didn't you ask him to refrain from saying that you and others couldn't "comprehend"
I see some posts edited,but they way they were edited,did not support your claims of name calling,IMO

1786.6.2007 16:15
surtees
Inactive

If you would be so kind as to go back and read my posts, you would see I was asking for proof about the so-called laws he was claiming existed. He named one, but refused to go into specifics. Go figure.

As to refurbished 360's, I have no doubt this can happen, as well as un-modded Xboxes getting banned as well, but these are certainly the exception, not the rule, and automatically screaming "lawsuit" is a touch much. It just got to the point where samuels was just pulling stuff out of his butt and presenting it as fact, and that gets tiresome. YMMV.[/quote]
============================================================
Not to mention empty boxs for returned to suer RMAs MS is so large it can happen,the 360 is still a bit wonky hardware wise for my tastes but its solid enough.[/quote]

Well he did supply you with a link,i read it, and fully understood it,is that not proof enough for you,that is if you are referring to the Australian laws on modchipping on consoles?
I agree with everyone else about the EULA issue,but samuels did swing your way,eventually,didn't he?in theory, this issue could be contested in court,i won't elaborate,as i don't want to start,what samuels has already strated.
As for him talking about "lawsuits" also theororetically, samuels is correct,we just have to wait and see,we might all get a surprise.

1796.6.2007 18:05

"I see some posts edited,but they way they were edited,did not support your claims of name calling,IMO"

The only parts edited are those with his comments. You know, the name-calling.

"is that not proof enough for you,that is if you are referring to the Australian laws on modchipping on consoles?"

Nope. Again, if you are really reading the posts, I clearly stated over and over and over again that modding consoles wasn't the issue. Accessing the network was the issue.

Anyways, your concern for him exceeds mine, so I'll leave you to talk about him.

1806.6.2007 18:10

Originally posted by eandtc:
"I see some posts edited,but they way they were edited,did not support your claims of name calling,IMO"

The only parts edited are those with his comments. You know, the name-calling.

"is that not proof enough for you,that is if you are referring to the Australian laws on modchipping on consoles?"

Nope. Again, if you are really reading the posts, I clearly stated over and over and over again that modding consoles wasn't the issue. Accessing the network was the issue.

Anyways, your concern for him exceeds mine, so I'll leave you to talk about him.

If you want to get back to "law" chat,laws are made to protect the rich and the peace of common folk,modchips fall under protecting the rich thus I ignore them,as for the EULA MS is well with its rights to ban a consumer and his unit for any reason they feel, and that suer could take them to court but witch court would it be small claims?

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

1816.6.2007 20:00

You got me. I would presume one would have to bring it to a US court at the very least, but I can't see anything smaller than a class action lawsuit coming close to changing this. As I said before, there are many companies that limit access to services using specific - and unmodified - hardware. Just because one pays a subscription doesn't mean that the subscriber can set the terms. It would be like someone demanding access to their DirectTV account with a black market ID card.

So many folks keep acting like it's a violation of some inalienable right to access these networks in a manner that the network owners don't allow - especially after signing an agreement specifically stating that they won't. If you don't abide by the rules of service, then your payment amounts to nothing. This is the case in quite a few scenarios that I can think of (box seats for sports events, rental of a car or time share, etc.)

Simply saying that it isn't right for someone to refuse service when you don't meet the agreement doesn't mean it's illegal. So many folks here seem so used to getting what they want despite the laws (by hacking, copying, etc.) that they don't even know how to react when they are actually beholden to said laws. I can't help but chuckle at some folks who admit to breaking the law in their favor, but can't stand the law being upheld against them. The laws don't apply to them, but should apply to everyone else? This mindset just boggles the mind.

And just for the record, I'm guilty of some less-than-legal actions myself, but I'm not fooling myself into thinking this is the way things should be done, either.

[EDIT] spelling :P

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 Jun 2007 @ 22:09

1826.6.2007 20:16

^^^^^^

good post!



1836.6.2007 22:10

Thanks. Sorry for the rant. :)

1847.6.2007 5:46

Originally posted by surtees:
If you would be so kind as to go back and read my posts, you would see I was asking for proof about the so-called laws he was claiming existed. He named one, but refused to go into specifics. Go figure.

As to refurbished 360's, I have no doubt this can happen, as well as un-modded Xboxes getting banned as well, but these are certainly the exception, not the rule, and automatically screaming "lawsuit" is a touch much. It just got to the point where samuels was just pulling stuff out of his butt and presenting it as fact, and that gets tiresome. YMMV.

============================================================
Not to mention empty boxs for returned to suer RMAs MS is so large it can happen,the 360 is still a bit wonky hardware wise for my tastes but its solid enough.[/quote]

Well he did supply you with a link,i read it, and fully understood it,is that not proof enough for you,that is if you are referring to the Australian laws on modchipping on consoles?
I agree with everyone else about the EULA issue,but samuels did swing your way,eventually,didn't he?in theory, this issue could be contested in court,i won't elaborate,as i don't want to start,what samuels has already strated.
As for him talking about "lawsuits" also theororetically, samuels is correct,we just have to wait and see,we might all get a surprise.[/quote]----------------------------------------------------------
he also degenerated in flaming and name calling push too many wrong buttons anywhere and you will be buzzed it happens.
a month ban would have been better since he survived being a noob but meh I am not mod martial ..way to bi polar :P

damnit did it again....this should have posted last night >>

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

18514.6.2007 17:51

does anyone have an actual site where i can read what microsoft said, all i can find are rehashed versions of it.

18624.11.2007 11:05

read the code of conduct n it says bout moddin ur xbox will get u banned so stop whinging bout gettin banned and yes i ave been banned frm live !!!!!!

1878.1.2008 19:08

I don't know much about being "banned" from a forum, so my statement may be ridiculous: surtees appears to be a reincarnation of samuels. The typing style is very similar (using lots of commas and no spaces) and the distinct tone of the message is all too familiar. The reverence to every word spoken by samuels is spooky. The newbie status doesn't help either. If not a reincarnation, than possibly a minion??

I love free speech as much as the next person, but flaming arguments about game consoles is a little over the top (we are not discussing abortion or human rights violations). These appear to be angry people using a forum as a method to relieve their anger. I love a good debate, but we need to keep it civilized. The truth is no side is right or wrong, there are only opinions and speculation.

When I see a sticker on something that says "if this seal is broken the warranty is voided", I leave the sticker alone and keep my warranty, or I break the sticker and pray I never need the warranty. But I knowingly took that risk. I think the modders were shocked when they were banned, but knew the risk when they modded their box.

It is crazy to think service providers can't have enforceable rules for their service.

18825.4.2008 18:46

Ok i got a question--if i have a modded xbox 360, but i have original games, like halo 3, can i stll play that online. cause i know that you cant play burned games...

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 25 Apr 2008 @ 18:48

18925.4.2008 21:02

Originally posted by FutureCP3:
Ok i got a question--if i have a modded xbox 360, but i have original games, like halo 3, can i stll play that online. cause i know that you cant play burned games...
thats why you buy 2 360s.

19027.4.2008 2:55

Originally posted by robtwilk:
I don't know much about being "banned" from a forum, so my statement may be ridiculous: surtees appears to be a reincarnation of samuels. The typing style is very similar (using lots of commas and no spaces) and the distinct tone of the message is all too familiar. The reverence to every word spoken by samuels is spooky. The newbie status doesn't help either. If not a reincarnation, than possibly a minion??

I love free speech as much as the next person, but flaming arguments about game consoles is a little over the top (we are not discussing abortion or human rights violations). These appear to be angry people using a forum as a method to relieve their anger. I love a good debate, but we need to keep it civilized. The truth is no side is right or wrong, there are only opinions and speculation.

When I see a sticker on something that says "if this seal is broken the warranty is voided", I leave the sticker alone and keep my warranty, or I break the sticker and pray I never need the warranty. But I knowingly took that risk. I think the modders were shocked when they were banned, but knew the risk when they modded their box.

It is crazy to think service providers can't have enforceable rules for their service.
so spooky you think,well surtees isn't samuels I can Guarantee you that.you speak with a wise tongue,unfortunately not everyone is as wise.I to like a good,sensible debate.

19127.4.2008 3:01

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureCP3:
Ok i got a question--if i have a modded xbox 360, but i have original games, like halo 3, can i stll play that online. cause i know that you cant play burned games...
thats why you buy 2 360s.
That depends on what firmware you have...
Playing with an orignal game of Halo,even a backed up copy on a modded console will not get you banned from XBL,However, you, as every one has stated(well nearly everyone)is in disregard of XBL terms and conditions which constitute a breach of contract with Microsoft

19227.4.2008 20:42

i understand that (sort of), my only concern is if i play an original game on a chipped, modded, whatever term you like to use, is there still any probability that Microsoft can ban me from Live?

19328.4.2008 2:30

Originally posted by FutureCP3:
i understand that (sort of), my only concern is if i play an original game on a chipped, modded, whatever term you like to use, is there still any probability that Microsoft can ban me from Live?
To be honest,I am one that doesn't play online,but plenty of my friends do,I am only going on what they say,Like I said it depends on what firmware your drive has,that apparently can be the killer,I am lead to believe I-xtreme is the best for XBL for original and backed up games,as long as you don't play a game online that hasn't been released yet, this is an example only :)
Also anything is possible,Microsoft may or may not catch up with you on XBL,it's like life,full of challenges and chances,but in saying that,I haven't heard of anyone getting banned with the latest firmware out,but I could be wrong. hope this clarifies some of your concerns.

19428.4.2008 2:34

Originally posted by FutureCP3:
i understand that (sort of), my only concern is if i play an original game on a chipped, modded, whatever term you like to use, is there still any probability that Microsoft can ban me from Live?
yes, it's a risk you take...

"if you can't do the time, don't do the crime"
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 28 Apr 2008 @ 2:35

I don't Usenet, it uses me.

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