AfterDawn: Tech news

Blockbuster goes Blu-ray only

Written by Petteri Pyyny (Google+) @ 18 Jun 2007 4:28 User comments (112)

Blockbuster goes Blu-ray only World's largest movie rental chain, Blockbuster, has decided to drop HD DVD from its local store selection and opt for Blu-ray only strategy. Company has 1,450 rental outlets and 1,200 of them will expand their Blu-ray selection in next month.
Company has run limited trials since late last year in 250 stores that have carried both, HD DVD and Blu-ray, titles and according to the company, people have opted for Blu-ray title in more than 70 percent of the cases.

Blockbuster will continue its HD DVD selection in 250 stores and also in its online rental service, but all remaining 1,200 stores will be Blu-ray only starting July, 2007.

Blockbuster's decision might spark a "domino effect" through the movie rental industry, if other large rental chains follow the suit.

Source: AVS Forum

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112 user comments

118.6.2007 4:38

LOL......Good news for ps3 users...

218.6.2007 4:46

that's awesome ^_^!!! made my day score one for the ps3

318.6.2007 5:19

Thats a bold move being as though they could have just capitalized on both markets for HD-DVD's and Blu-ray. They are a video rental store so its not like they are owned but the companies thats pushing these formats. Also it is a good thing for PS3 owners. It will make it easier to get those movies.

418.6.2007 5:24

I'm confused... the title is "Blockbuster goes Blu-ray only" yet

Quote:
Blockbuster will continue its HD DVD selection in 250 stores and also in its online rental service, but all remaining 1,200 stores will be Blu-ray only starting July, 2007.
So if the inital 250 stores and the online service will keep offering HD-DVD rentals, how can they be Blu-ray only?

518.6.2007 5:26

So, I wonder if BB knew that the Blu-ray disks actually start to rot over time?

618.6.2007 5:31

GGaaa reminds me of the how they don't comperhned the word exclusive, if it goes multi console after a year thats not "exclusive".

All this says we are focusing on our BR stock right now, big deal.....

718.6.2007 5:58

LOVEFILM online rental supports both formats so why does Blockbuster alienate 40% or so of potential customers?It would be interesting to know the rental stats on the two HD formats at LOVEFILM.
To stock HD films is expensive as the rental percentage compared to
DVD is atrocious I imagine, which means the costs are very high as the returns are too low.Supporting one format halves your costs
but the returns will still be well below DVD rental standards.
This will change in time when a format becomes popular.If HD-DVD
should ever become the popular consumer choice,I can only see
Blockbuster taking a step backwards...if that happens!
Either way,this is just a business decision and only a small victory
for Blu-ray in the HD war.

818.6.2007 6:07

that's a bunch of crap. so how the hell will people with HD-DVD players rent movies? i wonder how much Sony gave Blockbuster to do this.

and no, I dont have neither a HD or BD player. I just think it's BS.

This could be the begining of the end for HD-DVD if other rental places start doing this.

I guess if they still offer it for the online thing, that's not bad for those that have it. But if you dont and your local store doesnt carry HD-DVDs, you're SOL

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 18 Jun 2007 @ 6:10

918.6.2007 6:14

Originally posted by Iguana775:
that's a bunch of crap. so how the hell will people with HD-DVD players rent movies? i wonder how much Sony gave Blockbuster to do this.

and no, I dont have neither a HD or BD player. I just think it's BS.

This could be the begining of the end for HD-DVD if other rental places start doing this.

I guess if they still offer it for the online thing, that's not bad for those that have it. But if you dont and your local store doesnt carry HD-DVDs, you're SOL
======================================
meh is a short term deal like any other once they see profits could go up by having both they will switch back.

1018.6.2007 6:38

This format war should have been avoided, but here we are. To compare rentals between the two formats must be difficult since each format has different titles available. Are they comparing only titles that are in both formats? My biggest complaint is that the HD-DVD format was supposed to cost no more to manufacture than the standard DVD format, yet stores are charging $10-$15 more for the same movie on HD-DVD compared to regular DVD. Why? Lately, the HD-DVD format has been releasing 'Combo' disks that play in the older DVD players (in normal definition) as well as the newer HD players (in High Definition). You can't do that with Blu-ray. It will get really interesting when some company comes out with a low-cost player that plays either HD format.

1118.6.2007 6:42

Originally posted by K2SMN:
This format war should have been avoided, but here we are. To compare rentals between the two formats must be difficult since each format has different titles available. Are they comparing only titles that are in both formats? My biggest complaint is that the HD-DVD format was supposed to cost no more to manufacture than the standard DVD format, yet stores are charging $10-$15 more for the same movie on HD-DVD compared to regular DVD. Why? Lately, the HD-DVD format has been releasing 'Combo' disks that play in the older DVD players (in normal definition) as well as the newer HD players (in High Definition). You can't do that with Blu-ray. It will get really interesting when some company comes out with a low-cost player that plays either HD format.

===============================================================
the price game will always be played with he consumer like the price diffrances in games and the price gouging in music.

1218.6.2007 7:18

well, I do Netflix right now, and Netflix is responsible for the major overhaul in renting policies and late fees and online Blockbuster availability. I actually see no problem with two competing formats. They keep causing the other to go to extremes to get customers. Even Netflix, to compete with Blockbuster, is now offering movies immediately online (although the current titles suck and the format does as well).

1318.6.2007 7:30
gerry1
Inactive
1418.6.2007 7:58

I think thats a dumb move, also I don't think other stores will follow suit.... If other stores guarantee they will have both formats, then you'll start seeing previous blockbuster customers move on to those stores.

Movie rental places can't force people to change formats, Im sure if sales and rentals start increasing on HD-DVD movies down the road Blockbuster will start renting them again, thus making it look bery bad on Blockbuster for making stupid decisions to early.

1518.6.2007 8:16

Originally posted by venomX05:
So, I wonder if BB knew that the Blu-ray disks actually start to rot over time?
Lol....I'll bet Sony was quick to have them sign at the dotted line :-P

As for the bluray rot, Maybe the movies are biodegradeable, and therefore environmentally friendly! Their PS3 can cure cancer and their blu ray movies can fertilize your vegetable garden!
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 18 Jun 2007 @ 8:18

1618.6.2007 8:25
hughjars
Inactive

Fox connected (and therefore Blu-ray connected) Blockbuster go BD.

Big deal.

They're only in the USA & have some stores in the UK......and they're keeping HD DVD in some stores and on-line anyways.

Typical empty BD supporting BS from one of the 'connected' points in the chain; this is more about a little publicity splash intended to 'help' BD than anything really that concrete.

Seriously tho, when was the last time anyone was too fussed about renting anyways?
There can't be that many as the rental store closures just about everywhere show only too clearly.
Rental isn't the future of anything.

Honestly, it's literally years since I last went to a rental store and I bet I'm far from alone in that.

This isn't like the early days of video tape or even DVD, high def content is so easy to get from the comfort of your own home (especially for the early adopting small high def market as it currently is).

This will may a tiny difference to a few but little to many.

Considering the falling trade figures and store closures in the rental business perhaps people like Blockbuster really should be more concerned about getting trade instead of turning potential trade away.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 18 Jun 2007 @ 8:26

1718.6.2007 8:56
webe123
Inactive

Why rent when you can get a newsgroup unlimited account and get what you want for one fee? And be able to KEEP your shows! Does not make any sense to me.

1818.6.2007 9:08

I own both formats and about 50% of movies I view on either format are rentals. For my rentals I have gone almost exclusively to my local Blockbuster because of delivery and availability issues with both Netflix and Blockbuster online. Let's admit it - not all movies that they release are worth keeping but may be worth just a look - thus the rentals.

What this means is that my local Blockbuster will either

1. Stop carrying HD DVD's for rental, or
2. Continue carrying HD-DVD's for rental but will stop getting new titles in stock.

This is a big blow to my HD-DVD viewing. This means that I will have to either buy HD-DVD's that are of "rental quality" only or be forced to not see these "rental quality" movies at all.

1918.6.2007 9:20

Originally posted by hughjars:
Fox connected (and therefore Blu-ray connected) Blockbuster go BD.

Big deal.

They're only in the USA & have some stores in the UK......and they're keeping HD DVD in some stores and on-line anyways.

Typical empty BD supporting BS from one of the 'connected' points in the chain; this is more about a little publicity splash intended to 'help' BD than anything really that concrete.

Seriously tho, when was the last time anyone was too fussed about renting anyways?
There can't be that many as the rental store closures just about everywhere show only too clearly.
Rental isn't the future of anything.

Honestly, it's literally years since I last went to a rental store and I bet I'm far from alone in that.

This isn't like the early days of video tape or even DVD, high def content is so easy to get from the comfort of your own home (especially for the early adopting small high def market as it currently is).

This will may a tiny difference to a few but little to many.

Considering the falling trade figures and store closures in the rental business perhaps people like Blockbuster really should be more concerned about getting trade instead of turning potential trade away.
Fun how you can down play this as little news...How is this BR BS BlockBuster made a choice BD was the format that was renting & HD-DVD not no matter how HD-DVD make claims about Cheap hardware, its content & exclusives my friend like i said many times before but you have a very hard head.


Originally posted by Hughjars:
Considering the falling trade figures and store closures in the rental business perhaps people like Blockbuster really should be more concerned about getting trade instead of turning potential trade away
Reason being that blockbuster's Have a death grip on the rental chain they close any other rental store or chain down they see fit.Blockbuster's still adding more store as we speak no matter how you down play this.This is a major Blow to HD-DVD but far from a end to them but it just add more pressure on Universal to go Format neutral which most analyst see happen sometime in 08 if they do Format War Over ! !

2018.6.2007 9:25

NexGen76
BB dose BR big deal it still dose not fix the price issues nor the world wide market it can help but its hardly game over.
And if they keep current with total HD discs(BR/HDVD combo discs) all the more reason for it to be a whole lot about nothing.

2118.6.2007 9:58

Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:
NexGen76
BB dose BR big deal it still dose not fix the price issues nor the world wide market it can help but its hardly game over.
And if they keep current with total HD discs(BR/HDVD combo discs) all the more reason for it to be a whole lot about nothing.
I never said it was over but this is a huge blow to HD-DVD which is doing good here in the states but if you look at the Bigger Picture Blu-ray is establish in Japan.HD-DVD isn't establish anywhere you got to do this by country's thats why someone in EU might not see this as anything but here in the states its huge.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 18 Jun 2007 @ 10:05

2218.6.2007 10:20

Quote:
Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:
NexGen76
BB dose BR big deal it still dose not fix the price issues nor the world wide market it can help but its hardly game over.
And if they keep current with total HD discs(BR/HDVD combo discs) all the more reason for it to be a whole lot about nothing.
I never said it was over but this is a huge blow to HD-DVD which is doing good here in the states but if you look at the Bigger Picture Blu-ray is establish in Japan.HD-DVD isn't establish anywhere you got to do this by country's.
But its doing well here and in the UK its more than enough to give BR no end of grief,BR might be superior but its still a mess compared to HDVD which has managed a SD layer that can run on most if not all players ,has not had as much trouble with its codeing,HDVD just seems to be the better choice,as it has been stated to go over 100GB a disc you will need new hardware so both HDVD and BR are more SD than real HD.

2318.6.2007 10:40

bold, but it works. Blu-ray will definitely win now

2418.6.2007 11:13

i told u. blu ray is gonna win

2518.6.2007 11:15

Quote:
[quote]
Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:
NexGen76
BB dose BR big deal it still dose not fix the price issues nor the world wide market it can help but its hardly game over.
And if they keep current with total HD discs(BR/HDVD combo discs) all the more reason for it to be a whole lot about nothing.
I never said it was over but this is a huge blow to HD-DVD which is doing good here in the states but if you look at the Bigger Picture Blu-ray is establish in Japan.HD-DVD isn't establish anywhere you got to do this by country's.
But its doing well here and in the UK its more than enough to give BR no end of grief,BR might be superior but its still a mess compared to HDVD which has managed a SD layer that can run on most if not all players ,has not had as much trouble with its codeing,HDVD just seems to be the better choice,as it has been stated to go over 100GB a disc you will need new hardware so both HDVD and BR are more SD than real HD.[/quote].





True but most first gen SD players had issues with DVD-9.I think everything going to play out sooner than people think.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 18 Jun 2007 @ 11:18

2618.6.2007 11:31

Quote:
[quote][quote]
Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:
NexGen76
BB dose BR big deal it still dose not fix the price issues nor the world wide market it can help but its hardly game over.
And if they keep current with total HD discs(BR/HDVD combo discs) all the more reason for it to be a whole lot about nothing.
I never said it was over but this is a huge blow to HD-DVD which is doing good here in the states but if you look at the Bigger Picture Blu-ray is establish in Japan.HD-DVD isn't establish anywhere you got to do this by country's.
But its doing well here and in the UK its more than enough to give BR no end of grief,BR might be superior but its still a mess compared to HDVD which has managed a SD layer that can run on most if not all players ,has not had as much trouble with its codeing,HDVD just seems to be the better choice,as it has been stated to go over 100GB a disc you will need new hardware so both HDVD and BR are more SD than real HD.[/quote].





True but most first gen SD players had issues with DVD-9.I think everything going to play out sooner than people think.[/quote]===================================================================
if BR can have 200$ players by the end of 08 ya the war might as well be over however each can undercut each other and keep a endless almost pointless cycle(war) going since they make so much moeny off SD movie sales and simply fight the war for the "brand" with no other purpose than have the "brand" survive.

its going to come down to one giving up or both merging and neither want anything to do with thos plans, I just do not see them giving up so easily..

2718.6.2007 11:58

This so called, "Trial" was rigged from the beginning. I have rented both for a while now from my local store and these are some things I noticed:

Blu Ray movies came at least a weak earlier.

Even when both formats were available, They would just get Blu-ray

There are more HD-DVD titles available yet in the store you wouldn't know it.

But my favorite. My local store SOLD Alpha Dog and Smokin' Aces in HD-DVD format yet they didn't rent it'

They decided well before the trial even started what they wanted to do.

I hope Sony losses Billions for throwing all this money at companies to try and force Blu-ray down our throat.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 18 Jun 2007 @ 11:59

2818.6.2007 12:02

wheres the part that says how much money sony gave them to do this.

2918.6.2007 12:08

How long will this format war go on!!!!!!!!! Some one please just give up.

3018.6.2007 12:21

one of these formats has to win out and it seems most of the big production companies will opt for the blu ray format over HD DVD, therefore in another 5 to 10 years time all movies will be on a blu ray disc which means consumers wont have to buy 2 separate dvd players to watch movies..the people who have HD DVD players will have to buy a blu ray disc player..a good example of this is betamax and vhs.

3118.6.2007 13:17

Quote:
How long will this format war go on!!!!!!!!! Some one please just give up.
The problem with this decision is that, unlike VHS/Betamax, there are films on HD-DVD that aren't on BR. Rentals may drop, but I can picture this actually helping sales of HD-DVD discs to some extent. I mean, most releases are current films that folks have seen recently anyways, and if folks liked the films, they're probably going to buy the discs regardless - and this is more likely since it'll be harder to rent them at BB.

Then again, Netflix still delivers both formats, so I don't see this as posing any kind of real death knell to HD-DVD.

3218.6.2007 13:23

Originally posted by 21Q:
wheres the part that says how much money sony gave them to do this.
There is no part that says that, it's just an assumption.

3318.6.2007 13:23

Heh, il be laughing when all of blockbusters stock get covered in rot :D

3418.6.2007 14:35

Quote:
wheres the part that says how much money sony gave them to do this.
Come one. It's not hard to imagine. Where else is BB gonna make up the money that they are going to lose to the obvious HD-DVD rentals. It's a tad early for BB to really be declaring a "winner" in this format war, so they are obviously trying to force one format over the other. Don't you wonder why (and I won't buy the "no one wants duplicate stock" argument, because many releases will be limited to one format or the other.)

3518.6.2007 16:00

Well I personally do not think the "general" public (i.e. non-"nerds" or techies) is convinced to get into HD movies. I think it would be safe to say DVD quality is good enough for 75%-90% of people.

I personally don't think this is too bad of a blow to HD DVD. Sure, it will kind of hurt them but it could end up hurting Blockbuster as well. The sales of HD DVD/Blu-Ray Players are about even, same with disk sales.

Although I am staying out of this format war for now, I don't think many people (I know I wouldn't!!) would go drop $500+ on a Blu-ray player just because the local Blockbuster decided to drop HD DVD.

Heck, if I had HD DVD I would just go to a different store or do what I have been thinking about doing and get a NetFlix or Blockbuster online subscription.

Quote:
Company has run limited trials since late last year in 250 stores that have carried both, HD DVD and Blu-ray, titles and according to the company, people have opted for Blu-ray title in more than 70 percent of the cases.
Also, out of 1,450 stores they only conducted a trial at 250? I think that a bad move. They should have at least conducted the "trial" using at least half the stores. 250 isn't, in my opinion, big enough of a group (Its only 17% of their stores or just between 1/6th and 1/5th of their stores) to justify the "dropping" of HD DVDs.

3618.6.2007 16:05

Agreed. It's a very stupid reason for doing so, unless, of course, there's another reason that just isn't being made public.

3718.6.2007 16:20
flyingv
Inactive

Quote:
Company has run limited trials since late last year in 250 stores that have carried both, HD DVD and Blu-ray, titles and according to the company, people have opted for Blu-ray title in more than 70 percent of the cases.
Of course the people chose BR, it's what is in more homes now because of the PS3! Anyone that has a PS3 will be able to play these titles. It's the only reason that it took 70% of the cases.



"...Just another brick in the wall" -Pink Floyd.
Please, don't become another "Brick!!!"
You have a brain, use it!!!

3818.6.2007 16:48

Quote:
wheres the part that says how much money sony gave them to do this.

True even though I support HD DVD vigorously and own an HD DVD player I am starting to think sony is going to spend a lot more money to push BR down peoples throats. Also of course sony being the money grubbing c**k suckers they are will pursue the market more aggressively.
The only hope is for the general consumer to choose before too many companies cave in.

P.S. I don't care about what format people think is superior. I just care about what company treats me better as a consumer and so far sony is not even close.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 18 Jun 2007 @ 16:52

3918.6.2007 17:00

its funny how you guys say its sony pushing the format down your throat. Blu Ray is not just sony. And a majority of the people dont even know what HD-DVD or blu ray is. the few that come on this site doesnt make up for the world. and the disk rot is only a few reported cases but yet you guys blow it up as a big deal. If you dont like the format then all i can say is dont buy it.BlockBuster made there bed lets just see how it all plays out.

4018.6.2007 17:04

Quote:
Also, out of 1,450 stores they only conducted a trial at 250? I think that a bad move. They should have at least conducted the "trial" using at least half the stores. 250 isn't, in my opinion, big enough of a group (Its only 17% of their stores or just between 1/6th and 1/5th of their stores) to justify the "dropping" of HD DVDs.
Couldn't agree more, too make it worse, the trial was done only at the top 250 performing stores. It wasn't even a random 250.

The part that I think they are not considering is the PS3 Burst in sales. Now that it has slowed considerably, My own assumption based on the fact I can go to any store and the shelves are full of them, and HD-DVD players drastic lowering in price, very affordable, the tables might turn.

I really doesn't matter to me cause I have both, I think the sound and PQ is exactly the same, and I will never spend $29 on a movie so I rent them. They just never gave HD a real shot, they never, except in the last 5 weeks or so, have had new realeases in HD-DVD format, Just older movies re releases

4119.6.2007 8:12
hughjars
Inactive

It's all about when you have no serious moves left to make you 'play' this kind of pretty meaningless 'hand'.

Rental may still be a bigger phenomenon in the USA but it's dying on it's feet here in the UK (and IIRC Blockbuster only operate in the USA & UK).

The high def market is far too tiny right now for this news to effect anyone in any significant way.

It's just a little PR story trying to add 'momentum' to Blu-ray.

.....but right now with so few HD TVs out there and little in the way of Blu-ray players (besides the PS3) I'd say it's a move that has been wasted and played way way too soon.

Joe Public could care less right now & is happy buying DVDs to keep @ 2.99/$6.

Like I said rental is the future of nothing in this.

4219.6.2007 10:03

Originally posted by banshee07:
its funny how you guys say its sony pushing the format down your throat. Blu Ray is not just sony. And a majority of the people dont even know what HD-DVD or blu ray is. the few that come on this site doesnt make up for the world. and the disk rot is only a few reported cases but yet you guys blow it up as a big deal. If you dont like the format then all i can say is dont buy it.BlockBuster made there bed lets just see how it all plays out.
well said =]

4319.6.2007 13:08

Originally posted by hughjars:
It's all about when you have no serious moves left to make you 'play' this kind of pretty meaningless 'hand'.

Rental may still be a bigger phenomenon in the USA but it's dying on it's feet here in the UK (and IIRC Blockbuster only operate in the USA & UK).

The high def market is far too tiny right now for this news to effect anyone in any significant way.

It's just a little PR story trying to add 'momentum' to Blu-ray.

.....but right now with so few HD TVs out there and little in the way of Blu-ray players (besides the PS3) I'd say it's a move that has been wasted and played way way too soon.

Joe Public could care less right now & is happy buying DVDs to keep @ 2.99/$6.

Like I said rental is the future of nothing in this.
cosign, and moreover a disc medium might as well be the future of nothing as far as I'm concerned. As fiberoptics approve and download services become more pervasive, the relevance of a disc format diminishes. I think eventually everything will be downloads and people will be able to choose whatever medium they want with which to watch it. Maybe that's a little further in the future, but as an investor atleast you to take it into concideration.

4419.6.2007 13:20

UPDATE:
Blockbuster hasnt given up on HD DVD. "Obviously, when customers are ready, we can expand the Blu-ray offering to more stores and add HD DVD to more locations if thats what customers tell us they want," Smith said (PR manager Blockbuster)

4519.6.2007 18:51

Quote:
its funny how you guys say its sony pushing the format down your throat. Blu Ray is not just sony.
Well no crap but I couldnt tell since every add for blueray mentions sony first. "Backed by sony."
As I said even though I support HD DVD vigorously and own an HD DVD player I am starting to think sony is going to spend a lot more money to push BR down peoples throats.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 19 Jun 2007 @ 18:54

4619.6.2007 23:24

Originally posted by banshee07:
its funny how you guys say its sony pushing the format down your throat. Blu Ray is not just sony. And a majority of the people dont even know what HD-DVD or blu ray is. the few that come on this site doesnt make up for the world. and the disk rot is only a few reported cases but yet you guys blow it up as a big deal. If you dont like the format then all i can say is dont buy it.BlockBuster made there bed lets just see how it all plays out.

==================================================================
Sony is heading the effort on BR tho and taking it in a direction that makes it simply less appealing.

ematrix
there keeping their Hdvd stock that pretty much said they are going to focus on thier BR stock for now, so this "trail" phase wont last long, it reminds me of the short term "exclusivity" games on the consoles.

4720.6.2007 5:12

I kind of have to laugh at this for the sheer fact of it being Blockbuster, the 2 blockbusters in my City closed there doors last year after being run out of town by MovieGallery and the Local Grocers having better rental prices and periods, hell $3.99 @ Blockbuster for 5nights, the grocers was $1.87 for 7nights. and the grocer is stocking HD-DVD instead of BR and they're $1.87 a rental for 7nights as well....i myself haven't wasted the money on picking a format from this ongoing war since i'm skeptical anyway (BetaMax, LaserDisc, UMD, Divx[the disc not the format DivX ;)] so i'll just wait this one out.....



4821.6.2007 5:18

According to my local BB store, BB made a commitment to Sony upon the introduction of BR; so the BB announcement has probably been etched into stone for some time. I'm wondering if the recent Toshiba promotions were timed to offset the affect of the BB announcement? According to the BB local store manager, the BB stores are scheduled to get BR within one year, not next month as mentioned in the Afterdawn article above. My own store is scheduled to get it in six months.

Unfortunately, it appears that this format war may well be won by who controls the media rather than on technology. Sony's studio ownerships and affiliations definitely gives them an edge up.

I had decided on HD DVD primarily because of the price point of the HD DVD players and their reputation for better SD upconversion. Based on the BB announcement, I am returning the just purchased HD DVD player, since I primarily rent and do not often purchase the media. I am from the Chicago area and BB is the only store in the area renting either HD DVD or BR.

4921.6.2007 5:27

Originally posted by Smurff:
I kind of have to laugh at this for the sheer fact of it being Blockbuster, the 2 blockbusters in my City closed there doors last year after being run out of town by MovieGallery and the Local Grocers having better rental prices and periods, hell $3.99 @ Blockbuster for 5nights, the grocers was $1.87 for 7nights. and the grocer is stocking HD-DVD instead of BR and they're $1.87 a rental for 7nights as well....i myself haven't wasted the money on picking a format from this ongoing war since i'm skeptical anyway (BetaMax, LaserDisc, UMD, Divx[the disc not the format DivX ;)] so i'll just wait this one out.....
BB is pretty big but they cant fight cheaper competition because each store can not go lower than the national rate, LaserDisc was kinda the Hdef of old,UMD and MD and such are so small in their nich there not worth mentioning,DivX the disc failed didn't it?

5021.6.2007 8:06
jlbomba
Inactive

Quote:
Originally posted by 21Q:
wheres the part that says how much money sony gave them to do this.
There is no part that says that, it's just an assumption.

5121.6.2007 8:10
jlbomba
Inactive

you know damm well sony payed off block buster. The more you buy from sony the more invasive they will get

5221.6.2007 11:22

F' 'em! I'm sticking to reg DVD's thank you very much! Blue Ray can suck my hiney!

5321.6.2007 13:06

Who remembers when Sony backed Batamax and not VHS. Well I do and there where some tricks played then too. I think Sony will do anything to not loose another format war.

5421.6.2007 14:31

This debate is very interesting but we as consumers have to understand the investment movie production companies have in the Blu-ray format for archiving and distribution. Last I checked there were 30 movie production houses that invested in the Blu-ray format and are listed under the Blu-ray consortium, Disney being one of them. Although its too soon to pick a winner it would seem the choice was made for us a long time ago. Blu-ray. It appears that BB just confirms what the movie production houses were trying to tell us in the first place.

Also working in the retail sector I see the apprehension of customers investing in HD. In addition to the current format war most customers believe that current resolution is fine. And are satisfied with upscaled video.

5521.6.2007 16:16

Blockbuster is not "dropping" HD DVD from the stores...they never had it in the first place. The stores that had HD DVD will continue to offer it (and of course, it will be available online).

The CEO of Blockbuster was interviewed by CNBC the other day and he said it's "way too early to tell anything" from all of this. He seemed rather embarrassed that he was being interviewed in the first place. I'm sure it was the BDA that got behind all of this publicity...

And as for how important this move is in the grand scheme of things, the studios only care about how many discs they sell. They care very little about renting. Rentals don't make them money...SALES do. It's the enduser sell-through market that matters, not a bunch of vid stores buying copies and renting them a zillion times. And, as such, HD DVD player owners buy about 4 times the discs per player as do BD owners (including the "juggernaut" PS3...)

5621.6.2007 16:56

Originally posted by egcarter:
Rentals don't make them money...SALES do.
Rentals make up about 1/3 of total revenue from home video each year.

Take 2005 for example:

Movie rentals generated 8.5 Billion USD.
Sell-through accounted for 16.4 Billion USD.
Out of a total of 24.9 Billion USD spent by consumers for home video.

From EMA's 2006 Annual Report

http://www.entmerch.org/annual_reports.html

You have to remember that not all titles are purchase-worthy and most titles probably merit a rental only. The studios realize this.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 21 Jun 2007 @ 17:07

5721.6.2007 17:14

Quote:
Originally posted by egcarter:
Rentals don't make them money...SALES do.
Rentals make up about 1/3 of total revenue from home video each year.


For whom??

Is that figure including all of the revenue at rental? Or the studios' cut. If you are a rental revenue-sharing store, you lease the videos for about a buck each. There are varying plans, but you can sell the video after a month or lease it for six months. You split the rental income with the studio at 65:35 to 60:40 or so. So that figure probably includes the store's total revenue, not the studio's part. They would much rather sell the videos to the endusers outright. They get more money and more quickly. Why do you think they love those very popular, family-friendly animated titles? They sell tens of millions of them.

As such, the HD market is so tiny at this point, it will be many years before this shakes out. I know HD DVD has a many year strategy for their format.

5821.6.2007 17:22

Quote:
Why do you think they love those very popular, family-friendly animated titles? They sell tens of millions of them.
Like I said. Not all titles are worthy of an outright buy. Majority of releases are usually a rental-only deal for most people. The same is true for HD media. I have both formats and only about 40 - 50 percent of HD or BD movies I watch are outright purchases. The rest are rentals.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 21 Jun 2007 @ 17:24

5921.6.2007 18:17

Ill stick to normal DVD format for the time being well until i can get a next generation DVD Burner and then i will go to that.

6021.6.2007 22:28
cappyx
Inactive

When i first unpacked my HD-DVD player i was wowed with the video and audio clarity. HD-DVD is so impressive it seems as though every DVD turns on my DTS decoder and the sound and video has improved a million fold!! i am still very satisfied with it today and at 300 clams it was a deal!!

recently i received the new 3rd gen Sony br player at 500 clams and quite frankly i am not impressed. The highest audio channel on the movie the fountain is dd5.1 and from other movies i have been reading about on line this trend continues. While HD-DVD seems to be offering the premium audio on most of their DVDs br is not. Im going to try the br player for 20 days but the preliminary feel I have is send it back as it does not justify the 500 clams I spent on it.

i subscribe to net flix so i really don't give a rats ass what bb does. honestly i think they are making a serious mistake and it is rumored that Wal-Mart may release a 150 dollar HD-DVD player in the future and i wonder what Joe six pack will buy and further i wonder where Joe will rent movies from??? besides that if they are not going to carry HD-DVD in store any more then they will no longer be carrying the HD-DVD proprietary titles in Hd as well. This just makes no sense on bb's part I just don't get the business decision here?

Unlike the 80's betamax war Sony owns studios this round so they could sustain the format war indefinitely simply by keeping their studios proprietary to br.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 21 Jun 2007 @ 22:46

6122.6.2007 0:44

@cappyx: How do you have the Sony BR player connected to your audio system?

If audio is your concern then your generalization that DD5.1 is the best that BluRay can do is simply not true. If you're using analog 5.1 or HDMI you can enjoy lossless sound from the following discs:

Ghost Rider - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
Blood Diamond - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
Apocalypto - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-bit/6.9mbps) - my current demonstration disc for uncompressed PCM
POTC: Curse of the Black Pearl - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-Bit/6.9mbps)
POTC: Dead Man's Chest - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-Bit/6.9mbps)
Rocky Balboa - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
Casino Royale - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
NIN: Beside You In Time - Lossless Dolby TrueHD 5.1 Surround
The Prestige - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-Bit)
and others

If you're using only digital coax or optical on your Sony BDP-S300 the 5.1 channel PCM will downmix to 2 channel PCM. So it's best to use the 5.1 analog output or HDMI (if your receiver has this.) BTW - you don't need HDMI 1.3 on your receiver to enjoy the lossless soundtracks.

See this discussion:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=859334

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 Jun 2007 @ 0:51

6222.6.2007 3:09
bmfuk
Inactive

Still wont make me buy a Blu-ray or a hd until the format/s are cheaper and Sony will not bully me into anything!.
Our blockbuster is crap, any box sets it rents are very rupert murdock orientated and four pounds for a day on chart rentals?
I think blockbuster are going down me hearties!

6322.6.2007 3:20

dosen't matter to me, i'm not spending 500 bucks for a dvd player anyway. especially for the small difference in quality. and i have seen them on some serious plasma screens.

6422.6.2007 7:40

Originally posted by error5:
Apocalypto - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-bit/6.9mbps) - my current demonstration disc for uncompressed PCM

Same here. Just add a few indoor plants and you'll feel as if you're in the middle of the rainforest.

6522.6.2007 7:55
cappyx
Inactive

error5 thanks for the input however i was not generalizing as I said I am testing the unit however when i go to DVD sites all of the br dvds i am looking at are dd5.1 tops not even dd5.1 plus or DTS plus. the fact i have to jump through hoops and hook up six "Analog!" wires or spend 1600 clams to get a quality receiver with HDMI 1.2 which is being phased out for HDMI 1.3 is also undesirable when i am getting similar audio already with one simple optical cable from HD-DVD and the player is cheaper!! the video is the same between the two.

casino royal is on its way today and i will preview it this weekend. since you say that i can get better quality out of a lot of new analog cables or an expensive already outdated receiver upgrade if casino royal cannot do on Blu-ray what movies like "terminator 3" can do on HD-DVD i will ship its little blue ass back to the shelf.

don't get me wrong i appreciate the info you gave me but basically once again you are telling me that i have to go way out of my way to please sony or i can just get all this on a simple 300 dollar HD-DVD with a 10 dollar toslink cable then why bother with sony? besides if HD-DVD breaks Blu-ray then Sony will have to conform to the consumer just like VHS.

my whole thing with the new tv and players was to clean up the rats nest of wires behind my receiver adding 6 analog wires is going backwards.

Bottom line is for 500 clams Sony should have done better than this, oh but I forgot they think Im a pirate so they have to make it hard for me to get that audio that's sooo simple to get from HD-DVD.

if block buster had any real balls they would remove HD-DVD from their online service as well and then they would crash faster than a satellite with a decaying orbit.

6622.6.2007 8:33

I'm sorry you feel that way cappyx but I really can't get excited about the downmixed DTS that you get from a toslink connection. For me the downmixed DTS that you get from a DD+ soundtrack is not much of an improvement over regular DD 5.1.

The real improvement comes when you use HDMI or analog 5.1 to get the benefit of Dolby TrueHD in both formats and uncompressed PCM in BluRays.

If you haven't tried the Dolby True HD soundtracks on some HD-DVD's (Batman Begins, Superman Returns, V for Vendetta etc.) then I think you're missing a lot. The same is true for the Dolby True HD and uncompressed PCM in BluRays.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 Jun 2007 @ 8:44

6722.6.2007 8:42
cappyx
Inactive

alrighty then just to be fair to the format i will go ahead and try the analog connection. my reciever actually came with this input as a "future upgrade" so i really don't have to buy a new amp if this sounds as good as the HDMI connection. the only down side i see is that i cannot use my effects part of the reciever with this analog connection however if it is really better than HD-DVD DTS hd then it justifies to me to keep the blue ray and possibly it jsutifies its price. when my amp finally dies the next amp will have HDMI interface. possibly at clearence time if they reduced that 1600 dollar amp to 1000 i might bite when i bought my last reciever i walked in on a bargain.. i got the top shelf yamaha end of model clearence reduced from 2700 to 1199 so you see why i will not give up this amp. this reciever sounded so good in the store it made a new 900 dollar yamaha sound like an am radio. it is not the best of the best out there but it was one hell of a bargain and it featured dd7.1 when no one else even had it yet! ok then i'll try analog and if i like i'll buy quality cables and keep it's little blue ass:)

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 Jun 2007 @ 8:45

6822.6.2007 8:47

I've played Blu-ray movies and HD-Movies and will say this HD-DVD has the best picture but they both are too expensive. Also, if you do not have a true HDTV(1080p) don't even waste your time because without one your Blu-ray or HD-DVD will only look like a regular DVD.

6922.6.2007 8:47

No need to buy expensive cables. Two sets of generic 75 ohm component cables from monoprice will do just fine - inexpensive but very efficient.

7022.6.2007 9:06

Originally posted by snoop5023:
I've played Blu-ray movies and HD-Movies and will say this HD-DVD has the best picture but they both are too expensive. Also, if you do not have a true HDTV(1080p) don't even waste your time because without one your Blu-ray or HD-DVD will only look like a regular DVD.
thta pretty much my argument,its to mostly and then you need a complete setup to run it to get what you are paying for, for the common person its like LD a waste of money in time when HDef becomes more standard or I should say high quality standards are near dirt cheap (dirt aint cheap but I digress) and readily avalibale thats when everyone will have it know it and like it, until then its petty format wars.

Because of the advancing tech whatever wins(HD/BR) will most likely get a hardware and disc revision to ensure the medium is large enough and stable enough.

I don't think a 100GB BR disc will do it for the next 10 years and you know Hdvd has something up its sleeve.

So we have a format war i its infancy raging and before it ends it will hit Version 2(making the current hardware or discs useless).

Early adapoting formats/tech suck at least with tech its over in a year or 2 with formats you need to wait 3 or 4 years >>

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

7122.6.2007 10:23
cappyx
Inactive

Originally posted by eatsushi:
No need to buy expensive cables. Two sets of generic 75 ohm component cables from monoprice will do just fine - inexpensive but very efficient.
yes thank you already priced them. i will get two sets of component high grade cables either 3' or 6' and mono price is dirt cheap!!!

7222.6.2007 15:28

@cappyx: With your top shelf Yamaha and any decent set of speakers, you should really hear a difference between toslink and the lossless soundtracks using analog 5.1. You really don't need HDMI at this point. Give it a try - you won't regret it.

7322.6.2007 16:20

No way around it... this is very damaging for HD-DVD fans.

I believe this article is right. There will be a domino effect.

7422.6.2007 16:29

Originally posted by Baccusboy:
No way around it... this is very damaging for HD-DVD fans.

I believe this article is right. There will be a domino effect.

not really..main reason...niche market...theres just no compleing reason to jump on any bandwagon yet.

7522.6.2007 23:38
cappyx
Inactive

Originally posted by error5:
@cappyx: With your top shelf Yamaha and any decent set of speakers, you should really hear a difference between toslink and the lossless soundtracks using analog 5.1. You really don't need HDMI at this point. Give it a try - you won't regret it.
error 5, it is a different sound. while i loose my digital processing the sound is very natural and clean. i have lost the echo effect and some of the bass but have gained what is the pure audio bliss of this reciever. sound is tight and locked also fedelity is very high. i am using infinity reference series rs5 speakers and a jbl sub. i am currently shopping boston acoustic wall speakers and a ba sub. as with everything i buy i am waiting on the end of the model line to get the best bang for my buck. i have decided to keep the Blu-ray as the video detail is incredible and i want to be able to watch my dvds in hd. i have a temporary hook up and will order my cables from monoprice today.

7623.6.2007 3:47
dblbogey7
Inactive

@cappyx:

Congratulations and welcome to the world of lossless audio.

"Very natural and clean" is exactly right. With these high-resolution soundtracks there's really no need for any digital processing.

Your Yamaha and Infinity Reference set should be enough to do these justice but if you're looking to upgrade your speakers that's fine too.

Now you're set to take advantage of not just the higher resolution video but also the higher resolution audio of the new formats. Overall it's a more immersive, more engaging and more enjoyable home theater experience.

7723.6.2007 4:00

Well,

Statistics are what gave Blockbuster this decision. The move is from a well run polling department who's sole job function is to watch trends in the video rentals.
I think Blockbuster's move is premature and quite possibly could be a mistake if they decide to remain pro-blu ray. Personally I think HD has an edge in the Q department, not to mention Xbox 360 only runs HD video. I wonder if Sony owns Blockbuster or maybe MS will buy Blockbuster and thwart Sony's move.
Or Blockbuster announced this to the public because they are going to put the comany up for the highest bidder.

Pondering,
William

7823.6.2007 4:04

cappyx: I'm glad you liked the sound from your 5.1 analogs. dblbogey7 is right - it's a much better viewing experience overall with the 1080p video source and the lossless audio. Those who haven't taken the plunge don't realize what they're missing.

The monoprice component cables are excellent for your purposes. Being 75 ohm RG59 or RG6 video quality cables they can handle audio signals easily and are actually overkill for 5.1 analog applications. But at those prices who can complain right?

A final suggestion: When you have everything set up you may want to use an audio and video calibration disc such as Digital Video Essentials or Avia or even the THX Optimizer in those Disney DVD's just to give your system that final tweak.

7923.6.2007 4:27

Is this not posting for BB going blu ray??

Where does chatting about 5:1 relate???

WJV


Xbox #1 & 360 + PS2 #2

8023.6.2007 4:40

Originally posted by wvaughan:
Where does chatting about 5:1 relate???

We were just responding to cappyx's post on the last page. He was seriously considering taking back his Sony BluRay player but we have successfully convinced him not to do so by pointing out the merits of high-res audio in BluRay discs. So the BluRay player and the BluRay discs are still related to the BluRay in the thread title.

If you read more of these threads they sometimes go off on other related topics but the people here generally don't mind. It just makes for more lively discussion.

8123.6.2007 6:28

NO it's perfectly fine. I just saw the subject losing thread. Blockbuster really shouldn't have taken sides on the HD - Blue Ray format until a standardization is resolved. Both have advantages and will eventually be merged into one High Def player anyway.

Maybe Hollywood Video will just have HD discs.

Regards,
William


Xbox #1 & 360 + PS2 #2

8223.6.2007 9:11
hughjars
Inactive

cappyx

If you have analogue output on your HD DVD player try that too, SPDIF isn't going to give you the full range sound whatever you're using it with (which I'm surprised has not been mentioned by anyone yet).

You can't get your 'full' Dolby HD audio via SPDIF.

(but it is also fair comment to say that more than a few of the BD discs released to date do not have the higher audio standards)

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Jun 2007 @ 9:13

8323.6.2007 9:49

Originally posted by wvaughan:
NO it's perfectly fine. I just saw the subject losing thread. Blockbuster really shouldn't have taken sides on the HD - Blue Ray format until a standardization is resolved. Both have advantages and will eventually be merged into one High Def player anyway.

Maybe Hollywood Video will just have HD discs.

Regards,
William
From my meek understanding of it BB came aboard late the deal they made with Sony/BR,becuse of the deal they had to "chose".

8423.6.2007 10:23

Originally posted by hughjars:
cappyx
If you have analogue output on your HD DVD player try that too,
What puzzles me is why Toshiba left out the 5.1 analog outputs on the A2 and the A20. You have to get the XA2 for the 5.1 analog outs.

Quote:
but it is also fair comment to say that more than a few of the BD discs released to date do not have the higher audio standards
Most high resolution audio BluRay releases come in the form of uncompressed PCM. I've been compiling a list of BluRay releases with "higher audio standards" (a partial list):

The Untouchables - DTS-HD High Resolution 6.1 Matrixed Surround (1.5mpbs)
Daddy's Little Girls - Uncompressed PCM 7.1 Surround (48kHz/16-bit/6.9mpbs)
Primeval - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-Bit)
Bridge to Terabithia - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-Bit/6.9mbps)
Seven Years in Tibet - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
Bruce Springsteen With The Sessions Band Live in Dublin - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-Bit/6.9mbps)
Rescue Me - The Third Season - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (4.6 Mbps)
Hellboy - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
The Messengers - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
Curse of the Golden Flower - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-bit/4.6mpbs)
Ghost Rider - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps) PLUS Dolby TrueHD (48kHz/20-bit)
Blood Diamond - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
Cruel Intentions - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
Chris Botti Live - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (96kHz/24-bit/13.8mbps) - one of the highest bitrates I've seen so far.
Letters From Iwo Jima - Dolby TrueHD 5.1 Surround
Apocalypto - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-bit/6.9mbps) - my current demonstration disc for uncompressed PCM
Revenge - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
POTC: Curse of the Black Pearl - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-Bit/6.9mbps)
POTC: Dead Man's Chest - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-Bit/6.9mbps)
Rocky Balboa - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
Casino Royale - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
NIN: Beside You In Time - Lossless Dolby TrueHD 5.1 Surround
The Prestige - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
Donnie Brasco - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
Blood and Chocolate - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
Stomp The Yard - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
PLUS Dolby TrueHD (48kHz/16-bit)
Catch and Release - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
District B13 - DTS-HD 5.1 Surround
The Closer - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
The Ultimate Avengers Collection - 7.1 Uncompressed PCM Audio
The Queen - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit)
Deja Vu - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
Secret Window - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround
The Black Crowes Freak n Roll - Lossless PCM Stereo 2.0 (1.5 Mbps)
King Arthur - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround
Night at the Museum - DTS-HD Lossless Master Audio 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-bit/6.9mpbs)
Identity - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
Chronos - DTS HD Lossless Master Audio 5.1 Surround (96kHz/24-bit)
The Architect - DTS-HD High Resolution 5.1 Surround (1.5mbps)
Finding Neverland - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-Bit/6.9mpbs)
Eragon - DTS HD Lossless Master Audio 5.1 Surround
Chicken Little - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit/4.6mbps)
Layer Cake - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surorund
Big Fish - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surorund
Hoosiers - DTS HD Lossless Master Audio 5.1 Surround
Resident Evil Apocalypse - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surorund
The Pursuit of Happyness - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surorund
Kung Fu Hustle - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surorund
The War Within - DTS-HD High Resolution 5.1 Surround (1.5mbps)
The Sopranos - Season 6 Part One - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround
Young Guns - DTS-HD High Resolution
Behind Enemy Lines - DTS HD Lossless Master Audio 5.1 Surround
The Brothers Grimm - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/16-Bit)
Goal! The Dream Begins - Uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Jun 2007 @ 13:46

8523.6.2007 11:50
cappyx
Inactive

Originally posted by error5:
cappyx: I'm glad you liked the sound from your 5.1 analogs. dblbogey7 is right - it's a much better viewing experience overall with the 1080p video source and the lossless audio. Those who haven't taken the plunge don't realize what they're missing.

The monoprice component cables are excellent for your purposes. Being 75 ohm RG59 or RG6 video quality cables they can handle audio signals easily and are actually overkill for 5.1 analog applications. But at those prices who can complain right?

A final suggestion: When you have everything set up you may want to use an audio and video calibration disc such as Digital Video Essentials or Avia or even the THX Optimizer in those Disney DVD's just to give your system that final tweak.
thanks everyone for your input. the lossless sound feature was something i did not know about and with my next reciever i will get it right from the HDMI input and this will make me happy. currently i only have one set of analog lossless inputs and they are discribed in the manual as "For future use" i guess the future has arrived:) i had almost forgetton why this amplifier was so much worth what i paid until i heard the lossless audio. i am amazed at the picture as well. my toshiba a2 does not have the lossless unfortunately i did not know about that feature on the high end unit or i would have got that one but where would i plug it any way? in any event i still think block buster is making a huge mistake with this decision. my basis for that is if walmart does release the rumored 149 dollar HD-DVD player and most of your average consumers buy this then the walk in rentals are going to shift away from bb. perhaps even walmart may start thier own rental service and not carry Blu-ray? personally i think the two formats may be around until the next great format is marketed. i'm thinking this because sony actually owns studios this time around and can afford to sustain the proprietary bd format forever.

8623.6.2007 12:43
dblbogey7
Inactive

Quote:
I've been compiling a list of BluRay releases with "higher audio standards" (a partial list
error5: Here's the avsforum audio (and video) specifications thread for BluRay releases:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=760714

Looks like majority of releases so far have the "higher audio standards" namely uncompressed PCM, and compressed formats such as DTS-HD MA , DTS HD High Resolution, or Dolby True HD. Maybe you can complete your list, post in in the BluRay section and have it stickied.
Quote:
my toshiba a2 does not have the lossless unfortunately i did not know about that feature on the high end unit or i would have got that one but where would i plug it any way?
If you need 2 5.1 analog inputs and your receiver has only one set of 5.1's you can use this as a simple switcher:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BVI...1164316-1807843

Connect the 6 cables to the 3 component inputs plus the 3 A/V inputs (the red/white/yellow). My friend has one of these in his system for a Toshiba HD-XA1 and a Panasonic BluRay player and it works like a charm.

Quote:
What puzzles me is why Toshiba left out the 5.1 analog outputs on the A2 and the A20. You have to get the XA2 for the 5.1 analog outs.
I wondered about that myself. The slimmer profile would still accomodate the 6 extra RCA ports.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Jun 2007 @ 13:49

8723.6.2007 22:46
cappyx
Inactive

Quote:
[quote]I've been compiling a list of BluRay releases with "higher audio standards" (a partial list
error5: Here's the avsforum audio (and video) specifications thread for BluRay releases:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=760714

Looks like majority of releases so far have the "higher audio standards" namely uncompressed PCM, and compressed formats such as DTS-HD MA , DTS HD High Resolution, or Dolby True HD. Maybe you can complete your list, post in in the BluRay section and have it stickied.
Quote:
my toshiba a2 does not have the lossless unfortunately i did not know about that feature on the high end unit or i would have got that one but where would i plug it any way?
If you need 2 5.1 analog inputs and your receiver has only one set of 5.1's you can use this as a simple switcher:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BVI...1164316-1807843

Connect the 6 cables to the 3 component inputs plus the 3 A/V inputs (the red/white/yellow). My friend has one of these in his system for a Toshiba HD-XA1 and a Panasonic BluRay player and it works like a charm.

Quote:
What puzzles me is why Toshiba left out the 5.1 analog outputs on the A2 and the A20. You have to get the XA2 for the 5.1 analog outs.
I wondered about that myself. The slimmer profile would still accomodate the 6 extra RCA ports.[/quote]

now that i have experienced lossless audio i am now frowning at my a2. thanks for the switch info it is better than six y connectors:)
just a note the sony 300 seems to do a better job with sd-dvd upscalling.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Jun 2007 @ 22:48

8824.6.2007 3:56

For anyone who doesn't know,the latest compressed formats such
as 'Dolby TrueHD and' 'DTS-HD Master Audio' are actualy lossless
when decompressed and are the most efficient way of storing lossless
surround sound audio.Uncompressed PCM hogs a lot of the disk and
is less superior bacause it relies on analogue connections that
lose detail in comparison.It's like VGA vs HDMI,no matter how good your cables,bit for bit,a full digital carrier is the purest way.
Active speakers that can decode a digital signal from the amp is the
ultimate way, but beyond most peoples pockets.

8924.6.2007 4:28

Originally posted by ChromeMud:
Uncompressed PCM hogs a lot of the disk and
is less superior bacause it relies on analogue connections that
lose detail in comparison.
This needs clarification.

Once you decompress or decode the Dolby True HD or DTS HD-MA soundtrack you get the exact same signal as Uncompressed PCM. There is no difference in the final product.

Here's what happens in your player for Dolby True HD:

True HD soundtrack -> True HD decoder -> uncompressed PCM -> Digital to analog conversion -> Analog 5.1 output
OR
True HD soundtrack -> True HD decoder -> uncompressed PCM -> HDMI output

Here's what happens when you have uncompressed PCM:

Uncompressed PCM soundtrack -> Digital to analog conversion -> analog 5.1 output
OR
Uncompressed PCM soundtrack -> HDMI output

Uncompressed PCM does not rely on analog connections alone and can be sent to the receiver using HDMI in LPCM setting as long as your receiver supports this. I use HDMI to send uncompressed PCM to my Marantz. The receiver then does the digital to analog conversion and sends that signal to your speakers after amplification.

Now if you have a receiver that can do Dolby True HD or DTS HD-MA decoding and if you have HDMI version 1.3 on both sides you can chose to send this signal bitstream using this connection.

Uncompresed PCM does need a lot of disc space but this is where the large disc capacities come in. Here's a comparison of discs spaces used for PCM and Dolby TrueHD in a 2 hour movie:

Quote:

LPCM
2 hours @ 5.1 16/48 LPCM = 4.14 Gbytes @ 4.6 Mbps (used on most Blu-ray titles with LPCM)
2 hours @ 7.1 16/48 LPCM = 5.52 Gbytes @ 6.13 Mbps
2 hours @ 5.1 24/48 LPCM = 6.21 Gbytes @ 6.9 Mbps (used on Disney Blu-ray titles with BD50 + AVC)

Dolby TrueHD (comparable to DTS-HD MA)
2 hours @ 5.1 16/48 TrueHD = 1.26 Gbytes @ 1.4 Mbps ABR (used on Warner HD-DVD releases)
2 hours @ 5.1 24/48 TrueHD = 3.06 Gbytes @ 3.4 Mbps ABR (used on recent HD-DVD releases from Universal)
2 hours @ 7.1 24/48 TrueHD = 4.23 Gbytes @ 4.7 Mbps ABR
ABR = Average bitrate
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10271234&&
Post #7

What's important to remember when dealing with lossless compression is:

Quote:
Once unpacked or "unzipped" by a player or future HDMI 1.3 receiver, the resulting output is a 24/48 LPCM track that is bit-for-bit identical to the original studio master.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 24 Jun 2007 @ 4:57

9024.6.2007 4:39

Your right error5,pcm can be sent digitaly to the amp.
What I do know is compression like FLAC or other compressed lossless
formats can reduced the bandwidth by half which isn't significant
but better than nothing.

9124.6.2007 4:45

When you're letting the player do the decoding you're still sending uncompressed PCM thru HDMI even if your original soundtrack is compressed so bandwidth is not even an issue. The only time you send the undecoded compressed signal is when you have HDMI 1.3 and you have a receiver that can do the decoding.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 24 Jun 2007 @ 4:46

9224.6.2007 18:09
cappyx
Inactive

this is what i have noticed..

when using my optical input i have to turn up my center channel +5 to clarify the dialogue. with the lossless analog i set everything to zero and dialogue is crisp and clean. also music hits that sonic performance once again and the mids and highs really light up.

one note here that i don't think any one has mentioned:
since the analog lossless is a direct input and does not channel through the dsp then the distortion ratio drops dramatically. i cannot find the data in my recievers specs or maybe that is just for lower end recievers i do not know. however i do remember reading somewhere that once you use the digital enhancing features of a reciever the thd goes up. all i can find on my particular reciever is the thd is .02% at 100wrms it does not mention a change when the dsp engian is engaged. error5 do you know any thing about this?

9325.6.2007 5:03

cappyx: I don't use any DSP so I'm not sure about the diminished THD if you turn off DSP but I could imagine that there's some truth to this.

For me nothing beats basic calibration - or have it done professionally if you can afford it.

What greatly improved my setup is something that dblbogey7 mentioned in one of his posts - strategically placed tube traps from Acoustic Science Corp:

http://www.acousticsciences.com/tubetrap.htm

Because of my room acoustics I had excessively boomy bass. I placed a pair of 16-inch Full Rounds in the corners behind the speakers and I got much improved clarity and sonic impact from my woofers and subwoofer.

If your room has too much sidewall reflections and echo you can place them along the sidewall between the speakers and your seating area. You can also increase soundstage depth with a single tube trap placed in the middle of the wall behind the speakers. These are very effective and versatile at solving a variety of acoustical problems.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 25 Jun 2007 @ 5:32

9425.6.2007 10:19
cappyx
Inactive

Originally posted by error5:
cappyx: I don't use any DSP so I'm not sure about the diminished THD if you turn off DSP but I could imagine that there's some truth to this.

For me nothing beats basic calibration - or have it done professionally if you can afford it.

What greatly improved my setup is something that dblbogey7 mentioned in one of his posts - strategically placed tube traps from Acoustic Science Corp:

http://www.acousticsciences.com/tubetrap.htm

Because of my room acoustics I had excessively boomy bass. I placed a pair of 16-inch Full Rounds in the corners behind the speakers and I got much improved clarity and sonic impact from my woofers and subwoofer.

If your room has too much sidewall reflections and echo you can place them along the sidewall between the speakers and your seating area. You can also increase soundstage depth with a single tube trap placed in the middle of the wall behind the speakers. These are very effective and versatile at solving a variety of acoustical problems.
Thanks for the input. I have always been really good at tweeking my systems without the need of calibration dvds. the boomy bass i usually take care of by adjusting the crossover frequency, level and sub placement. what i did notice is that the surround was almost perfect when i hooked up the lossless connection. all of the echo and bass boom were minimized to a very tight level. i kind of achieve a similar effect but not as good with the HD-DVD dolby true or DTS hd but it is not as good as lossless. without channeling through the dsp adjusting is a bit easier. my hardest thing right now is sub placement as i am very limited where i can put it.

9525.6.2007 11:01

Hmm,so Dolby TrueHD is not lossless because it has to go through a
DSP...interesting,whereas PCM via analogue is more pure,no doubt
everybody is happy with this pseudo scientific explanation.
So leveling a speakers output and adjusting it's delay relative
to the actual listening position is now defunct since we have PCM
to save our asses,that's great!

9625.6.2007 11:06

Originally posted by ChromeMud:
Hmm,so Dolby TrueHD is not lossless because it has to go through a DSP...
No one said Dolby True HD is not lossless.

Dolby True HD is lossless. It's just packaged differently from PCM so it needs to go through a decoder. Like error5 said - the final product is exactly the same - a PCM soundtrack that's "bit-for-bit identical to the original studio master."

Right now cappyx can't take advantage of Dolby True HD because his HD DVD player doesn't have analog 5.1 ouputs and his receiver doesn't have HDMI. Right now he can enjoy lossless sound only from PCM soundtracks in BluRays. If he had an HD DVD player with 5.1 analog outs then could also enjoy Dolby True HD lossless without upgrading his receiver.

The DSP that cappyx was talking about has nothing to do with DOlby True HD.

Quote:
whereas PCM via analogue is more pure,no doubt
everybody is happy with this pseudo scientific explanation.
PCM via analog is exactly the same as PCM thru HDMI. The D to A conversion just happens at different places. No one said that either is better. See error5's excellent explanation above and our discussion here:

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/494479
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 25 Jun 2007 @ 11:30

9725.6.2007 12:15

HDMI 1.1,1.2,1.3,1.3a is total screwing up the consumer.
How can anyone upgrade into this mess right now is beyond me.
I think I'll wait for a year until HDMI recievers,players and TV's
catch up.
I remember when the first HD-TV's appeared,1080i,no HDCP and now are
next to useless with all the DRM lock down preventing them getting
a pure digital signal.
I'm still happy with good old 5.1 Dolby Digital via TOS-Link or Coax.
Maybe my ears need upgrading!

9825.6.2007 12:22

Originally posted by ChromeMud:
HDMI 1.1,1.2,1.3,1.3a is total screwing up the consumer.
How can anyone upgrade into this mess right now is beyond me.
I think I'll wait for a year until HDMI recievers,players and TV's
catch up.
I remember when the first HD-TV's appeared,1080i,no HDCP and now are
next to useless with all the DRM lock down preventing them getting
a pure digital signal.
I'm still happy with good old 5.1 Dolby Digital via TOS-Link or Coax.
Maybe my ears need upgrading!
Its the sasuge making for a standard, and sometimes you get inane or silly "brand" fights.

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

9925.6.2007 12:32
cappyx
Inactive

I am considering going ahead and getting the 2700 yamaha reciever with HDMI and upconversion. with this reciever i should be able to take advantage of lossless audio via an HDMI cable thus one single connection. my concern is if this new reciever will sound anything near my older one. right now i have an RX-V2095 it is rated 100w/ch at .02% thd where the new 2700 is rated at 140w/ch at .04% thd. the small jump in thd is not as concerning to me as the actual quality of the amplifier in the unit. i remember the salesman at tweeter telling me that the 2095 had an upgraded amp from the others of the series and it did bury at newer unit at that time that was quite pricey.

does anyone have any feedback on the 2700 series yamaha?

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 25 Jun 2007 @ 12:34

10025.6.2007 12:49

The 2095 is excellent. Instead of getting rid of it why not trade in or sell your A2 and upgrade to the XA2 (and the highly touted Reon VX HQV chip) to get your 5.1 analog and Dolby True HD. Just use the switcher that dblbogey7 suggested. It's more cables but you get to keep the excellent amplifier section of the 2095.

10125.6.2007 13:40
cappyx
Inactive

Originally posted by eatsushi:
The 2095 is excellent. Instead of getting rid of it why not trade in or sell your A2 and upgrade to the XA2 (and the highly touted Reon VX HQV chip) to get your 5.1 analog and Dolby True HD. Just use the switcher that dblbogey7 suggested. It's more cables but you get to keep the excellent amplifier section of the 2095.
it's not a bad idea. that 2095 just has a unique quality to it that is very musically acurate and the depth as well as sonic performance is really brought out with this reciever. i am affraid that the 2700 amp section will not live up to the 2095 and i will be dissapointed. i am happy with the audio i get from the toslink connection from the HD-DVD it seems the dsp processor in the 2095 really knows how to handle the newer audio from HD-DVD. i could use the a2 in another room on one of my other hd-tvs and just order the xa2 and switch.

eatsushi: do you know what exactly makes the 2095 amp section so unique? i remember the sales person at tweeter telling me in general however after he switched to the newer unit and the 2095 made that newer unit sound tinty and middy i just bought the 2095 without ever asking anything else.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 25 Jun 2007 @ 13:41

10226.6.2007 23:30
cappyx
Inactive

error5 do you think that purchasing an extended warrenty on the sony s300 is a good idea or not needed? i'm wondering if you know the repair record of the previouse 2 generations.

10327.6.2007 4:38

I suggest keeping an eye on the BDP-300 owner's thread on avsforums for the latest developments:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=860948

10427.6.2007 5:51

The next big announcement from Sony is to come this weekend. They are annoucing 5 to 10 free movies with the purchase of any Blu-ray player.

10527.6.2007 7:10
cappyx
Inactive

Originally posted by Baccusboy:
The next big announcement from Sony is to come this weekend. They are annoucing 5 to 10 free movies with the purchase of any Blu-ray player.
Baccusboy
does this come from a reliable source?

10727.6.2007 8:06

It won't be active until this weekend, but you will be able to read about it on this site when it gets put up:

www.bluraysavings.com

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 27 Jun 2007 @ 8:07

10827.6.2007 8:39

Scan of the ad:


10927.6.2007 8:41
cappyx
Inactive

Originally posted by Baccusboy:
It won't be active until this weekend, but you will be able to read about it on this site when it gets put up:

www.bluraysavings.com
thanks everyone. i am experiencing an issue where the S300 freezes or stops at random and chapter changes so i need to exchange it. i was going to do that today but now i will just re-buy it on sunday and return the defective unit.

11027.6.2007 9:16

If you read the ad, I noticed that you have to choose just one from each of the colored categories. That kind of sucks, as some of the few movie I'd want are in the same category.

11127.6.2007 10:14
cappyx
Inactive

Originally posted by Baccusboy:
If you read the ad, I noticed that you have to choose just one from each of the colored categories. That kind of sucks, as some of the few movie I'd want are in the same category.
you just gotta choose what you like better of the set in that level. however for another option you could just pick one from each of the lines you like then the remainder lines choose the most popular and sell them on half.com or ebay.since you are getting them for free just underbid the lowest seller by three bucks and it will move fast.

11228.6.2007 19:09

Lol sony copying toshiba's promotion.

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