AfterDawn: Tech news

Update turns iPhones into paper weights

Written by Rich Fiscus (Google+) @ 27 Sep 2007 19:32 User comments (96)

Update turns iPhones into paper weights Imagine if a major automobile manufacturer came up with a way to use an onboard computer to require that you buy gasoline from a particular company. It's the same gas you can buy anywhere, but unless the pump includes special circuitry only available to a single company that paid a bunch of money to the car's manufacturer for the privilege, the gas tank can't be filled. Now let's say that an enterprising individual wants to choose his own gas station, so he comes up with a way to reprogram the car's computer, allowing the owner to fill the gas tank from any pump at any gas station. Let's finally suppose that there's a recall on the car, requiring owners to bring them into a dealership for free repairs, but while the car is being fixed, every dealer is required to check the fuel tank computer to make sure it hasn't been tampered with to allow gas from non-approved sources, and disable the car's engine if evidence of tampering is found. When irate owners complain to dealership management they're simply told that a license agreement they agreed to by driving off the lot voids the car's warranty, and another on a piece of paper they signed to get the recall work done allows the dealership to modify the car in whatever way the manufacturer wants, so basically there's nothing they can do.
It sounds like a ludicrous situation, but it's not as far fetched as it may seem at first. Replace the word car with mobile phone, and choosing your own gas station with choosing your own wireless provider, and you've got something that looks a lot like Apple's apparent plan for the iPhone. Earlier this week Apple announced a major update to the iPhone. Unfortunately for iPhone owners who have unlocked their phones to use them on networks other than AT&T, the update will also cause their phones to cease working at all. The phones appear to be in the same pre-activation state as when they're new, but they can't be actived with a non-AT&T SIM (which requires the phone to be unlocked) or the original AT&T SIM that came with the phone.

Additionally, iPhones that have been hacked to allow unauthorized third party software to be installed will be modified, although they won't stop working. Instead, all software not specifically allowed by Apple simply disappears.

An announcement from Apple did make it clear that software for unlocking the phones "will likely result in the modified iPhone becoming permanently inoperable when a future Apple-supplied iPhone software update is installed." When asked for clarification, an Apple representative stated that the company is not "proactively trying to disable any iPhone that has been hacked or unlocked by software," However, this seems to contradict a statement made by CEO Steve Jobs last week. At a London press conference officially announcing the iPhone's availability in the UK he said Its a cat and mouse game. We play it on iPods with DRM. We try to stay ahead. Im not sure if we are the cat or the mouse. People will try to break in, and its our job to stop them breaking in.

Despite the contradictory company statements, one major clue seems to stand out. Although the unlocked phones become inactive after the update, and can't even be used on AT&T's network, they can still make emergency (911) calls, as mandated by the FCC. In other words, the one thing that would have ensured a government investigation if it didn't work is the only thing that does. Though this certainly doesn't prove anything conclusively, it does raise legitimate questions that someone in the government should be asking.

Unless it can be proven that Apple is intentionally targeting unlocked iPhones with their updates, consumers have little or no recourse. If, however, a government investigation were to find that this is exactly what Apple is doing, it would drag the practices of tech companies like Apple (and many others) into the light for the kind of public scrutiny most other industries face.

If the scenario were truly one of an automobile manufacturer getting paid to ensure their cars only accepted gas from a single company there would be hearings in Congress starting next week. If it was determined to be legal, you can be sure a law would quickly be passed to outlaw it. Instead, since it's computer technology, which to paraphrase author Arthur C. Clarke seems indistinguishable from magic to lawmakers, the public appears to be left to their own devices for solving the problem.

A warranty that's void because of tampering with a device is fairly standard and certainly legal, although perhaps morally questionable when it comes to simple software modifications. Taking advantage of that to break legally purchased devices because their use runs counter to the manufacturer's business model isn't standard. If this is, in fact, Apple's strategy it also removes any questions about the plans immorality. If they want to keep their grip on the mobile device market apparently considered key to the company's future plans, they'd be well advised to consider all their customers, including the ones who think their $400 phone should work on any compatible network they choose.


Sources:
MacWorld
Digital Daily
Wired
Gizmodo

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96 user comments

127.9.2007 22:11
armorthis
Inactive

Oh wow...

227.9.2007 22:22

People who modded their iphone's are screwed....this is the risk in modifying hardware! Like somebody who tries to sue M$ after some future update bricks their flashed 360....good luck on that.

327.9.2007 23:19

Ah that was a VERY good point made! I have moded a few boxes in th epast & i knew full well that if that box was seen online threw that provider of the service that my acct. would be gone! so i guess they should have just not let those phones work on that network anymore. but they went even further of "deleting" any other software! i would have still been able to use my box but not with that particular service they would not have deleted all my software on it. hummm... until someone figures out who owns what it is kinda hard! Cause then there is TIVO & i can do what ever to it & as long as they get there $ for my monthly fee they dont care! so i say who cares as long as apple is getting there cut from the phone & music! :( Who knows? This will never end!

427.9.2007 23:31

Voiding the warranty is to be expected, as are problems with future updates, and problems using official services from the manufacturer.

Intentionally breaking the phone so it can't be used at all (if it is actually intentional) is something completely different.

527.9.2007 23:44
WierdName
Inactive

That's just the world we live in. Until this happens to screw over a lot of people or it somehow gets thrown into the light, then Apple will probably get away with it.

628.9.2007 3:08
webe123
Inactive

Well I think that the whole notion of a company like apple FORCING a consumer to use a particular service like AT&T for their phone service should be taken to court.

It can be argued that a person does not have to buy an iphone, however.....it can also be argued that if a person purchases a product like an iphone, that companies should not be allowed to determine which provider they use with that product!

It is basically a monopoly....you either use the service provider THEY choose or you cannot use the iphone. I think this will be taken to court after enough people get fed up with it. I see a class action lawsuit comming soon.

728.9.2007 3:15

Hey nobody can force people to update their phones. Just don't update.

828.9.2007 4:17
webe123
Inactive

Originally posted by ville30:
Hey nobody can force people to update their phones. Just don't update.
That may be a workaround, but that is not the point. The point is, that apple thinks they can sell a phone to consumers and that apple and apple ONLY can choose which service provider they use with their iphone. Again, I see this heading to court.

928.9.2007 4:27

You can buy your household electricity from whomever you choose, same goes for your natural gas at home; home local phone service, your choice; want a different Long Distance Co? no problem; Microsoft had problems bundling its FREE browser(IE) and Media Player software in windows, but you have to power your Apple Phone with AT&T.

Even if it is not illegal, it is just WRONG and Apple should be ashamed.

I don't own the damn thing (and won't) and I'm pissed off.

1028.9.2007 6:02

and people ask me why I never bought anything from Apple... (rolling eyes)

1128.9.2007 8:17

Hmm...Not only does Apple own Boardwalk and Park Place. Now they've placed hotels with (big AT&T signs). I don't want to play Monopoly with them anymore :-(

1228.9.2007 8:23

Originally posted by noncomjd:
You can buy your household electricity from whomever you choose, same goes for your natural gas at home; home local phone service, your choice; want a different Long Distance Co? no problem; Microsoft had problems bundling its FREE browser(IE) and Media Player software in windows, but you have to power your Apple Phone with AT&T.

Even if it is not illegal, it is just WRONG and Apple should be ashamed.

I don't own the damn thing (and won't) and I'm pissed off.

the only trouble with power is its such a monopoly you can not get it else where, funny thing abotu regulation once lobbying comes into the picture its paid goverment protect the larger companies have to keep competition out of the picture.

1328.9.2007 9:18

well as alot of us in the computer world know it being unfair dosnt mean they cant do it.... look Im an Apple user and as much as Id like to bitch about every thing they do its unfair to say it wasnt going to come to this look yes the unlock software was kewl and being tethered to one carrier wasnt but it was only one year after that they (other country's) like Korea would have cloned the phone for half the cost... and even after they dropped the price on the phone those that hacked it should ave seen this coming... so if you cut your break lines on your auto when it went to the shop do you really think your mechanic would let you leave like that .... they even warned everyone that the update would do this what no-one listioned.... aparrently all those with hacked phone think they are smarter then the company who made it grow up and quit the crying over it so they bricked it send it back under the warrenty and get a legal phone......( buy law if sold with a warrenty they have to replace it since they wiped off the software they did you a favor......

1428.9.2007 9:34
vegeta_x
Inactive

Like the psp i think hopes are that some developer may come with a hacked or custom version of that update that wont affect the unlocked users

1528.9.2007 10:23

Apple has always been totally proprietary with exception to almost loosing the MAC line in which they went iMAC, try using a PS2 mouse and keyboard. I just love all the people who flock blindly to iCrap like it's revolutionary, what a joke.

It is pretty shatty that they attack people that have modd their phones like that but it does show you how they are. Hopefully people will wake up when it comes to Apple, doubtful though.

They do fully have the right to make their products totally proprietary if they wish it is your choice to make the mistake. There are plenty of better choices out there that have been around longer and cost less.

1628.9.2007 10:24

Apple is the new Microsoft

1728.9.2007 10:31

Mystic:
Hacking telephone to allow it to "work" on another provider and then having the manufacturer intentionally break it so it won't work period is drastically different than buying a product, breaking it and expecting them to fix it.
If Dell spiked its "updates" to brick your computer if the update found software, peripherals or other hardware Dell didn't like, people would be ready to riot down in Round Rock and rightfully so.
Could you imagine the firestorm if MS tried this?
People get pissed when they get a Trojan or virus, this is worse.
There was no need for Apple to do this other than to spite those that un bricked their phones. It was malicious and vindictive and I think it will blow up in their face.
I am sure that a workaround will be developed.
Godspeed to those working on it.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 28 Sep 2007 @ 10:32

1828.9.2007 11:57
WierdName
Inactive

Eh, this is just the circle of big tech company business. Company puts out something with limitations, consumers hack it to make it do more, company puts out stuff to block most of the hacks allowing maybe one or two in attempt to satisfy them, consumers hack it again, company screws them over, consumers hack, company screws them over, consumers hack...

...Then either the company or the consumers get sued by the other resulting in the process stopping, getting hindered, or exploding into a frenzy.

1928.9.2007 12:40
RNR1995
Inactive

Yo it's Apple!
Can you run their stupid OS on any hardware they did not make? NO!
Ipods only works with Itunes
So what's the fuss do not like AT&T buy another phone
Purchasers knew they had to use AT&T when they purchased
Their logic is not all that bad if you can control the hardware and the software then your product should work well...

2028.9.2007 13:18

Originally posted by schneid3:
Apple is the new Microsoft
Not really, I have a cracked Windows XP on my other PC and it works just fine.

2128.9.2007 13:38
sfriedman
Inactive

Boy I gotta LOL - All those people who paid a pirate's ransom to buy this piece of icrap - and all the media hype about it! I saw this one coming.
The day someone breaks the monopoly by these mobile phone companies and gives us all the ability to choose any phone service we want on any phone just like we can with long distance service, then maybe I'll consider a new featured phone.

2228.9.2007 13:54

Apple have probably learnt a thing or two from Sky Television in the UK:-

You have to buy the digital set top box from Sky (there are several manufacturers but you usually don't get to choose)

The set top box updates automatically when Sky feel like it (no consumer choice)

If you switch the box off for more than a few hours, the smartcard stops working (great for the environment).

Even if you don't subscribe to channels, you still have to see them on the EPG and you can't alter the order in which you flick through them.

It is almost impossible to receive programmes from another satellite.

And there was me thinking that the "free market" meant some freedom for the consumer!

2328.9.2007 14:35
davidrose
Inactive

Ohh Noo.

2428.9.2007 16:24

On the one hand, I am pretty appauled if they deliberately broke the phones that were hacked..... on the other hand I find it quite hilarious that people are upset when they bought a phone that was locked to a provider, then got upset when their crack to use it outside the terms of agreement means the phone becomes unusable.

Simple solution to the people who cracked it.... don't buy the thing if you don't like the terms. Eventually Apple would have saw how stupid it was, and eventually open it up to other networks.

So - my second thought is this... how does the crack work?? Does it rewrite the firmware on the phone with a hacked one? In which case, are we upset that code Apple didn't write (well, technically it's modified at least) is unstable and bricking phones mid-way through rewriting the firmware. I work for a company that builds embedded systems that do image processing on small video grabbers - if somebody complained that their system died during an update, then I found out they were tampering with the system prior to that I would tell them where to go! lol... Apple can't be expected to support modified firmwares, is unreasonable and damn right silly to expect them to. Having said that, if this update deliberatly bricks the phones that are modified when it would not normally be an issue then fine - they are in the wrong. But - really... they are in the wrong from the word go by forcing people on crappy networks... I hear they gone for the most god-awfull network in the UK for data charges (o2 - they suck!)... I wont be buying it until they open up to either Tmobile or 3!!

2528.9.2007 16:36

"A warranty that's void because of tampering with a device is fairly standard and certainly legal, although perhaps morally questionable when it comes to simple software modifications."

Forgot to comment on that line - it's wrong on so many levels. If the update is executed and loaded by the software already installed on the device, then there is every chance that the modified software is at fault here - not the update from apple itself. Just because it's software, doesn't mean it is inside a nice little bubble where you can hack away without any concequences in hardware... the hardware is fine, when you brick something you either have a corrupted firmware (which is essentially software on a chip - look up VHDL - fun language for FPGA's!), or something wrong with the software that is loaded into memory once the bootloader has kicked in - both software issues!!! So stop making out like the hack is a minor setting tweak and could not possibly be the issue!! Maybe the author should look at how ASICs and FPGA's work, and look how these embedded non-windows devices are actually built before they start spouting off crap!!

I agree with the principle of the article, but your points are flawed!

2628.9.2007 16:45

Not only is it a wrongful practice, it's been blatently outlawed in the US.

The FCC and FTC issued a mandate that all future Contract-cell phones be service-provider-open, no more locking, beyond the radio-type. Now, I'm sure Apple and Verizon feel they can counter this in court by calling upon the Anti-DRM-hacking-clause of the DMCA, which in turn was folded into the "renewed" Patriot act, which makes every violation of DMCA a terrorist act that can send you to Gitmo.

between the loss of the fair-use-exemptions on digital media and the loss of writ and cause and so on of the patriot act, the civil liberties of this country are being sorely erroded. Enough so that I have considered going ExPat to Canada where fair use is so dearly protected.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 28 Sep 2007 @ 16:57

2728.9.2007 16:52

Vote with your money and don't buy that piece of crap, learn from others' mistakes. I mean the iphone is somewhat cool, but not cool enough to justify putting up with all the shit apple throws at you. If you buy any phone with a contract (at least here in Europe) you can have it unlocked by the provider in the first few minutes of your contract (you pay them for at least 18 months anyway so they don't care). Hell, providers even unlock prepay phones for you, if you've used up a predefined amount of credit (around 100-120 euros)! What apple's doing is disgusting at minimum, but possibly unlawful IMO. I'll be very curious about this same situation here in Europe.

2828.9.2007 18:18

Hey guys be realistic! You buy the phone knowing that ATT is the only service provided. You knew that when you purchased the phone. Someone goes in and says...I'll show them! I'm smarter than they are and I'll prove it! I'll hack into "their" software and make it so I can use "any" company I want to use! I am smarter than they are! Well guess what?

You say you have choices for your electrical privider and your gas provider. That's true. You have a choice for your cell phone too! However if you choose the Iphone the you choose ATT for the privider. You don't want ATT....get a phone that will accept the privider you want! Plain as that!

You violate the rules and now you have a paper weight! Whose fault is that? You knew the rules when you bought the phone! You chose to violate the rules! You have no right to complain! Everybody has to live with the decisions they make every day! You chose to break the rules now you pay the consequenses! Get over it! Guess who will win in court? Not you!

2928.9.2007 18:30

A) I don't know why it has taken THIS long for someone to make this comparison. It occurred to me the first time I read about the restrictions on game console mods.

B) I have no pity on anyone who rushed out to have the NEWEST & COOLEST 2-year financial anchor. Next time, read the fine print BEFORE you start vomiting money.

3028.9.2007 18:47
sheri1983
Inactive

Originally posted by GrayMule:
Hey guys be realistic! You buy the phone knowing that AT&T is the only service provided. You knew that when you purchased the phone. Someone goes in and says...I'll show them! I'm smarter than they are and I'll prove it! I'll hack into "their" software and make it so I can use "any" company I want to use! I am smarter than they are! Well guess what?

You say you have choices for your electrical provider and your gas provider. That's true. You have a choice for your cell phone too! However if you choose the iPhone then you choose AT&T for the provider. You don't want AT&T....get a phone that will accept the provider you want! Plain as that!

You violate the rules and now you have a paper weight! Whose fault is that? You knew the rules when you bought the phone! You chose to violate the rules! You have no right to complain! Everybody has to live with the decisions they make every day! You chose to break the rules now you pay the consequences! Get over it! Guess who will win in court? Not you!
I agree... but I'd like to see Apple come out with an "unbricking" service... $50-$100 beats a $500 paperweight. It will be bad for Apple if there's no unbricking service available.

One other thing to consider: Did Apple change the firmware to intentionally brick the phone, or did they update it just to protect it, but knew any already-unlocked iPhone would be bricked by the update? I think Apple is holding back on features just to stymie unlocking. Want iTunes Store? If your phone is unlocked you're not getting it! Next round, maybe it will be voice activation/voice recording. I think this will be a battle that will serve Apple well. Apple is basically saying "Want the coolest, latest, greatest iPhone features? Better not unlock it!".

FYI the TappedApp mod didn't prevent me from upgrading to v1.1.1

3128.9.2007 19:11

I think there will be alot of lawsuits filed against apple and at&t.

3228.9.2007 19:18

For what? They haven't done anything wrong! Apple should sue the general public for being Dumba$$es!

3328.9.2007 19:21
sheri1983
Inactive

Originally posted by dyckugood:
I think there will be alot of lawsuits filed against apple and at&t.
I agree... however how many consumer electronics/services companies aren't faced with this problem. Too many Americans would rather whine & cry than just play by the freakin' rules. Everyone who purchased an iPhone knew it was AT&T only, so it should come as no surprise that Apple is trying to make people abide by it.

3428.9.2007 19:24

Apple and the carrier are in violation of the current FCC & FTC law. but they obviously feel protected because they have lawyers on staff, with deep pockets and think they can fight off any consumer-advocacy lawsuit. they may or may not be right, or it may be that they think it will just take so long to get thru the courts it will be a moot point.

technically any and all iphone purchaser, not just an owner of a modded phone, can sue apple for this, and the most effective way would be a massive class action lawsuit. the end being to enforce the law requiring the cell phone to be sold unlocked and open to any network .

the problem for owners of already-bricked iphones, now that it's bricked, your posession of the phone is proof of the crime of DRM circumvention. they're hoping the owners who have bricked iphones won't want the hassle of dealing with the DRM / Patriot act violations. EG "you report us to FCC and/or sue us, we'll turn you in to Homeland Security for investigation"

3528.9.2007 19:24

oops sorry. blanked the double post.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 28 Sep 2007 @ 19:32

3628.9.2007 19:41

From a business side, this move by Apple is very short-sighted if not down right stupid. If you can sell phones and they can be used on any network - you will sell more phones. Duh! If were a stock holder, I would not be happy.

If you make any phone only work with one network, you restrict your market. Not very smart.

Apple has made some very innovative decisions in the past and made some really bone headed decisions also. I think this falls into the bone head category.

Most of us that live in large metro areas pick phone companies based on service. I have had AT&T, Sprint and Verizon in the past, and they all have issues.

Let's see how long it is until Apple changes their mind on this. And if they do not, how much marketshare they lose. Considering that they now make most of their money with non-computer items, it could really be painful for Apple. Or maybe the public is as stupid as I think they are and nothing will happen to Apple.

Time will tell - but I won't buy ANYTHING Apple.

3728.9.2007 19:49
sheri1983
Inactive

Originally posted by Messaline:
Apple and the carrier are in violation of the current FCC & FTC law. but they obviously feel protected because they have lawyers on staff, with deep pockets and think they can fight off any consumer-advocacy lawsuit. they may or may not be right, or it may be that they think it will just take so long to get thru the courts it will be a moot point.

technically any and all iphone purchaser, not just an owner of a modded phone, can sue apple for this, and the most effective way would be a massive class action lawsuit. the end being to enforce the law requiring the cell phone to be sold unlocked and open to any network .

the problem for owners of already-bricked iphones, now that it's bricked, your posession of the phone is proof of the crime of DRM circumvention. they're hoping the owners who have bricked iphones won't want the hassle of dealing with the DRM / Patriot act violations. EG "you report us to FCC and/or sue us, we'll turn you in to Homeland Security for investigation"
See? This is EXACTLY the attitude, the air of entitlement, I'm talking about! Well guess what? You can also sue Apple because you don't like the shape of their logo, too.

This is why medications cost so much more in the U.S. than elsewhere like Canada. Canadians aren't a bunch of whining crybabies and accept the deals they've agreed to. We Americans have been reduced to whining and crying about everything we don't like.

Bottom line: If you don't like the Apple/AT&T deal, buy a different phone. Don't cry about the deal and expect mommy to make it all better. Start acting like an adult who can take care of his own problems.

I chose to mod my iPhone. I knew I might brick it. If I had, why should Apple be blamed?

By the way, the FCC & FTC don't write laws... they have regulations. Congress writes laws.

3828.9.2007 20:00

Bottom line is, they are pursuing an illegal business practice that was ruled against by the FCC. congress grants the power to the FCC and other agencies to make rules and regulations on their behalf. and they are considered to have the same weight as "Law" passed by congress, unless overturned by courts or congress or superceded by a newer law.

I don't have an Iphone. I have no intention of ever purchasing one, for myself, or for resale. but it is a matter of corporate america being given a backroom nod to violate the protective laws in place in this country .

How many companies have already been sued in the past for illegal business practices? Why should apple be different and victims be called whiners?

you're throwing up a red herring, Iphones being modded in any way allows them to be bricked, sure, no problem with that. Iphones out of the box should however, NOT be locked. period.
they CANNOT enter into exclusive-use agreements, only exclusive sales channels....if you want to buy an ATT IPHONE and use it on another network, it should by law be able to do that right out of the box, and the exclusion of that feature is illegal . period. There was a decision made on this issue based on this that the Activation-fees/Deactivation-penalties were sufficient to keep users from swapping services early. but that they had every right to bite the financial bullet and do so, and not be locked in at an OS level.

(Edited for Typos)

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 28 Sep 2007 @ 20:05

3928.9.2007 20:08
sheri1983
Inactive

Originally posted by Messaline:
Bottom line is, they are pursuing an illegal business practice that was ruled against by the FCC. congress grants the power to the FCC and other agencies to make rules and regulations on their behalf.

I don't have an Iphone. I have no intention of ever purchasing one, for myself, or for resale. but it is a matter of corporate america being given a backroom nod to violate the protective laws in place in this country .

How many companies have already been sued in the past for illegal business practices? Why should apple be different and victims be called whiners?

Lawsuits... America's answer to all her problems!

Big boys and girls don't need their mommies and daddies (or Congress) to fight their battles. Big boys and girls should simply support practices they agree with and not support those they find reprehensible. Apple makes their products. They should be allowed to decide how they will be sold.

Little Johnny broke his phone doing something he knew he shouldn't be doing. Poor Johnny! He's a victim!

4028.9.2007 20:28

you keep referring back to modded & bricked Iphones.

Quote:

Little Johnny broke his phone doing something he knew he shouldn't be doing. Poor Johnny! He's a victim!
That's a red herring. Modded phones ARE fair game. HOWEVER unmodded new-in-box phones are supposed to be sold unlocked. period. if apple chooses to disregard this, law enforement steps in by SUING . if you notice when the DA or ADA or AG step in to an issue like this it is referred to as a LAWSUIT , not a PROSECUTION.

and as for congress policing corporate america, without that we'd have no worker protections, and no consumer protections, at all. Cars would never be recalled. Pintos would continue to be sold, as the disposable car; it even removes itself from the scene of an accident...by exploding.....
Granted some protections are misguided, and some are overdone, but free market does nothing to protect consumers against collusive behaviors. it ONLY applies before a given business or cullsion reaches a critical mass, where they become the setters of standards. and at that point only the law is left to redress.

4128.9.2007 20:57

So much for freedom of choice. PPL should be able to choose which network they prefer to use.

4228.9.2007 22:34

This author's example is completely wrong. Imagine buying a car that only work ran on a certain brand gas station? Imagine buying a car.... Ok, the car represents the phone... The gas station companies provide gas.... Ok so, a certain company would provide a wireless service...... Now different cars run on different fuels.... Different cell phones work on different wireless services ..... Cars = diesel, and different octane fuels.... Cell phones = different technologies, band widths and frequencies. Bmw, Porche's, and mercedes use premium gas, if you use another type of gas, your car will not function properly and if it gets damaged becuase of this, you have voided your warranty. And so the iPhone in the same way will and should work with AT&T , if you wanna run it on something else, it's your risk. If it breaks. Oh well! The people driving a mercedes aren't complaining about the type of gas they have to use. And the people with iPhone's aren't complaining about the service they have to use. Who is complaining??? Those who wish to have the iPhone but cannot. If you can't afford it, then drive a Kia,....or in this case, a Nokia!

4328.9.2007 23:05

Quote:
you keep referring back to modded & bricked Iphones.

Quote:

Little Johnny broke his phone doing something he knew he shouldn't be doing. Poor Johnny! He's a victim!
That's a red herring. Modded phones ARE fair game. HOWEVER unmodded new-in-box phones are supposed to be sold unlocked. period. if apple chooses to disregard this, law enforement steps in by SUING . if you notice when the DA or ADA or AG step in to an issue like this it is referred to as a LAWSUIT , not a PROSECUTION.

and as for congress policing corporate america, without that we'd have no worker protections, and no consumer protections, at all. Cars would never be recalled. Pintos would continue to be sold, as the disposable car; it even removes itself from the scene of an accident...by exploding.....
Granted some protections are misguided, and some are overdone, but free market does nothing to protect consumers against collusive behaviors. it ONLY applies before a given business or cullsion reaches a critical mass, where they become the setters of standards. and at that point only the law is left to redress.

Are you nuts congress supports big business, not us, you only see recalls after people have threatened to sue big time otherwise there are no recalls. Ford hid a cruse control problem that would cause a vehicle to take off with no one behind the wheel. They totally denied this was their issue until many people got involved. How about Enron there is one more example and there are way too many others to state. You totally don't know what the h@ll you are talking about!

4429.9.2007 3:14

hahah Antitrust Cough.

Actually i would advise anyone looking at an iphone to look at the range of HTC phones.

Ok its not a iphone, but they will work on any network, have touch screen and being windows mobile will run anyone software.

Oh and i forgot to say theres a door on the battery compartment and who would have thought it you can change your own batties as well.

4529.9.2007 6:44

I tend to disagree with a few of you. I have a high performance car, and they do tell you to use premium gas or you risk ruining your car. They also say to use Mobile Synthetic oil or you will ruin your car. This is the case with most high performance cars right now. They almost all say the same thing,that you must use a certain oil or gas. I talked to my mechanic and he totally disagrees. Every different gas producer provides gas that you can use. After trying a few you figure out wich one works best. Every different oil company produces different oils you can use. Again after trying a few you can figure out wich one works best. The car manufacturers suggest Mobile etc. these are just suggestions and if you choose to do different your car will not stop working, it just might not run as well as it should. With the Apple thing you have to use Apple right ? Or you iphone will stop working. You cannot choose a provider that works best, they tell you what you will use, there is no choice. I think the authors analaogy was pretty good.

4629.9.2007 7:01

I personally do not have an iphone as yet but why not just revert back to the original software that was on the phone when you purchased it. You did back it up did'nt you.

4729.9.2007 7:25

One more thing. If you take your car to the dealership to have it serviced, they cannot tell by simply looking at the car that you used gas or oil other than what they told you to use. If they do figure out that you used different gas or oil (by the car not functioning properly) they won't mess with the computer to make your car stop working, they will simply suggest (again) that you use a certain gas or oil. At that point you can choose to use that gas and oil or again try different ones that may work better. I think my point here as well as the point of the author is that a choice exists, and will always exist. With Apple on the other hand it is their way and only their way, and it is all about the money.

4829.9.2007 7:30

wierd i can but a *(just for example) treo on any carrier i want & run 3rd party software, faster internet speeds, play music, touch screen... aren't these the features of a i phone? oh & i can change my battery my self without voiding a warranty! i don't feel bad for anyone! everyoner had a choice to but an iphone & another choice to hack/mod it. if you where able to hack/mod it you have most likely moded something before & know the risks!

4929.9.2007 7:33

If people want it, pay the price that comes with it. If you don't like it, then don't buy the phone. It's that simple. I'm thrilled with mine. I'm also glad that no one that I know has one.

5029.9.2007 7:52

I think the gas and oil thing is mirking the actual point here.

Ok just to clairfy if your going to compair gas and oil lets say in the phones case the battery is the equivilent, if so you can still use a third party batt. But as everyone know cheaper refurb batteries can be prone to all sorts of problems.

So really its the same with phones, the real point being made here was not that you have to use said provider. I can go any car shop and get a manufactures spec grade of oil or get the right ron value fuel.

Providers in the past have tried to use operator locks on the phone or in some cases country id locks, however these can normally be safely removed or got round if you know how.

However the point was apple going one step further by saying they will then lock the device down if you modded it, which is something thats never been done.

However apple pushing the legal boundries as ever and worring about it later, if you ask me, if i buy the phone with a contract, i am bound by the contract to subscribe to the service for x period, normally 12 months.

But they SOLD me the phone, doesnt matter if it was at a reduced rate because i singed up to the contract the phone was sold.

So legally i own it, i obviously dont own apples software on the phone, but thats not to say modding it breaks any legalities as its still had its sw licence paid for, its still the same software its not like i would have installed anything else.

So if apple were to take my hypothetical phone and then lock it down with a software update, i would argue that they had without my consent (owner) modified my device. Doesnt matter they own the software i have paid for my licence when i got the phone, i think apple are getting confused between them renting the phone.

In which case of a rental much like the poor old EV1 the company that owns it can do what they want.

But in the case of the iphone i would have paid for the device, its mine. Legally even if its in the contract i have to subscribe to their network, thats fine it was an agreed period.

But to modify the device without consent is wrong, doesnt matter what they put in the contact its my device, it they give me a warwanty replacement i would expect it to have the original software when it came back (square one time to mod again)

Thats like buying a car, sticking sports suspension and some good wheels on it and racing it on the track. Only to find when i take it back to my supplier that took off all my mods and crippled the engine.

No they wouldnt, they may decided that ive voided my warwanty by running my car at 7k all day and make me pay for repairs.

Lets see them try it, i cant see them winning if it went to court, take for example Joe who buys his iphone, does his 18 month contract then leaves for another network with his iphone, in this senario their software kill the mods, update would then mean he couldnt use his phone on the new netwrok. Despite the fact he had actually conformed to contract term (length) and payments etc.

5129.9.2007 9:08
sheri1983
Inactive

Quote:
you keep referring back to modded & bricked Iphones.

Quote:

Little Johnny broke his phone doing something he knew he shouldn't be doing. Poor Johnny! He's a victim!
That's a red herring. Modded phones ARE fair game. HOWEVER unmodded new-in-box phones are supposed to be sold unlocked. period. if apple chooses to disregard this, law enforement steps in by SUING . if you notice when the DA or ADA or AG step in to an issue like this it is referred to as a LAWSUIT , not a PROSECUTION.

and as for congress policing corporate america, without that we'd have no worker protections, and no consumer protections, at all. Cars would never be recalled. Pintos would continue to be sold, as the disposable car; it even removes itself from the scene of an accident...by exploding.....
Granted some protections are misguided, and some are overdone, but free market does nothing to protect consumers against collusive behaviors. it ONLY applies before a given business or cullsion reaches a critical mass, where they become the setters of standards. and at that point only the law is left to redress.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH the civil liberties of this country are being sorely erroded. Enough so that I have considered going ExPat to Canada where fair use is so dearly protected.
Once again, we as a culture try to use courts and legislation to win fights that we can't win with common sense. Forget what the nanny-state FCC & FTC say, why should ANY phone be required to be sold unlocked?

Using the iPhone as an example, it seems most people are not so discontent with AT&T that they refuse to buy the phone. If you do not like what a business is doing, the best way to send the message is via the pocketbook... don't buy the product.

So, do we now need a constitutional revision guaranteeing all Americans the right to purchased unlocked phones?

Don't like locked phones? Don't buy a locked phone!

What's next? Every phone in the U.S. must be CDMA-compliant? Sure! Why not? Why can't I use an iPhone with Verizon? Surely some court somewhere must agree that I should be constitutionally-endowed with the right to use whatever phone I want on whichever network I choose!

Have we really degenerated that far that we need all these entitlements? We all have a set of basic rights as human beings... unlocked cell phones are on the list. Sorry!

Enjoy Canada! I'm sure they'll enjoy another whining American telling them how they should do things.

5229.9.2007 10:09

Rather than just not buying it if you don't like the fact that apple is trying to pull a fast one, nip it in the bud. That is what rules and laws are for. Lawsuits aren't just for money but to force someone into compliance. Americans are faced right now with our rights being obliterated by corporate dollars. Some might think it is whining. Our Constitution gives us rights so long as we are willing to fight to protect them.

5329.9.2007 10:54
ericg8
Inactive

WHATEVER!

Sprint phones can only be used on the Sprint network.

Blackberrys can only be used on the Blackberry network.

Microsoft Office for Windows can only be run on a MS operating sys.

Consumers have a choice in cellphones. A huge choice. If they choose an Apple, then they have chose those rules and restrictions.

AT&T had to add special back-end software and hardware to enable the iPhone feature-set. Only an idiot would buy an iPhone and choose to abandon all of those capabilities, just to use it as a plain-jane phone on someone else's service.

5429.9.2007 12:04

The people who think Apple is in the right are retards. Just because a company tells its customers that they're placing restrictions on their product does not make it legal or morally right. And who are they to decide what the customer can and can't do with the product that they purchase with their own money? Just because they made some backroom deal all of us have to give up our choices on a provider? We pay for a phone, a piece of hardware, and we should be able to do with that phone whatever we like. Customers have to realize that we have the power of supply and demand; if we don't agree with Apple, we can not buy their phone and that will show them we do not agree with their ridiculous restrictions. After all, if they don't give us what we want, some other enterprising company will. This country is founded on innovation and ingenuity. People who let companies dictate all of their choices for them are lazy and contribute to the demise of democracy. Stand up for your rights, make your own choices, and stop being lazy bastards.

5529.9.2007 12:34
WierdName
Inactive

Originally posted by ericg8:
Microsoft Office for Windows can only be run on a MS operating sys.
Actually, it can be run in a simulated Windows environment on a Mac or Linux OS but that's beside the point.

5629.9.2007 14:12
sheri1983
Inactive

Originally posted by Anisketch:
Just because a company tells its customers that they're placing restrictions on their product does not make it legal or morally right. And who are they to decide what the customer can and can't do with the product that they purchase with their own money?

BLAH BLAH BLAH

People who let companies dictate all of their choices for them are lazy and contribute to the demise of democracy. Stand up for your rights, make your own choices, and stop being lazy bastards.
Who are they to stop you? Well, I believe they are the manufacturers. They spent their money developing it. They're not stopping you, they're just not supporting you.

Who is stopping you from choosing what carrier you can use the iPhone with? Verizon doesn't support GSM phones. This should be illegal! I have the right to use ANY cell phone with ANY carrier! Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? If you have a version 1.0.0, 1.0.1, or 1.1.1 iPhone, you can unlock it and use it on T-Mobile if you like... just don't expect Apple to support it.

Everyone who purchased an iPhone knew the expectation was that it would be used only on AT&T. Now some people who thought they were smarter than Apple are upset because they don't want to live up to their end of the bargain by using the phone on other networks.

Now these crybabies want to fashion themselves as some sort of "Freedom Fighters, making the world safe for democracy". Give me a break.

5729.9.2007 14:43

The phones worked after they were modified.
Johnny didn't break them, Apple did.
Apple went out of their way to break them.
They don't work because of Apple not Johnny.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 29 Sep 2007 @ 14:45

5829.9.2007 14:54

lol sheri1983, for someone who gives the impression that we should all lay down and do what were told you dont half waffle on.

I completely agree with Anisketch and belive in freedom of speech, if im not mistake a situation where we all just bend over and take its call a dictatorship. We live in a democratic sociaty where the overal goal is represent the wishes of the masses and the minorities.

Rules were made to be broken.... just ask apple they have broken enough in their time, copy right infringements etc..

noncomjd is right, it wasnt jonnies modding the broke it, as it worked after his mod.

I think theres no guessing that sheri1983 isnt a Che Guevara fan lol.

So what apple spent their money developing it, nike spend money developing their foot wear, but they dont try and tell me that i cant walk on certain roads etc... i paid for them i will do what i want, i can even set them on fire if i wanted, why should nike care, they got paid for their work.

Same thing with the phone, as long as the contract completes its course it shouldnt matter what happens to the phone, apple gets paid by at&t, customer pays at&t and everyone should be happy. But no, theres a few fat cats out there who try and eat toooo many mice.

5929.9.2007 15:23
sheri1983
Inactive

Originally posted by plazma247:
lol sheri1983, for someone who gives the impression that we should all lay down and do what were told you dont half waffle on.

I completely agree with Anisketch and belive in freedom of speech, if im not mistake a situation where we all just bend over and take its call a dictatorship. We live in a democratic sociaty where the overal goal is represent the wishes of the masses and the minorities.

Rules were made to be broken.... just ask apple they have broken enough in their time, copy right infringements etc..

noncomjd is right, it wasnt jonnies modding the broke it, as it worked after his mod.

I think theres no guessing that sheri1983 isnt a Che Guevara fan lol.

So what apple spent their money developing it, nike spend money developing their foot wear, but they dont try and tell me that i cant walk on certain roads etc... i paid for them i will do what i want, i can even set them on fire if i wanted, why should nike care, they got paid for their work.

Same thing with the phone, as long as the contract completes its course it shouldnt matter what happens to the phone, apple gets paid by at&t, customer pays at&t and everyone should be happy. But no, theres a few fat cats out there who try and eat toooo many mice.
You apparently believe in "Freedom Of Cell Phone", too. I must have missed school the day they taught that.

If holding up on your end of the bargain is dictatorship, sure, I support that.

The problem is... It didn't work after Johnny chose to update his hacked phone. Apple didn't kick down his door and install the update against his will. Little Johnny pressed the button all by himself.

I think it's funny that Ernie Guevara's name came up in this conversation. I'd love to see the look on his face when told one of his minions feels locked cell phones are a grave social injustice. I'm imagining him rolling over in his grave now...

You can walk on the lava if you like, but think Nike is going to replace those shoes free-of-charge?

I think people should play around/hack their iPhone all they like. I just don't think people should bitch at Apple when it gets broken. Also, Apple DID warn people prior to the release of v1.1.1.

6029.9.2007 15:42

I think mr Guevara would be proud that in a world where the the corpiration has become all powerful i think he would be proud of the few that still stand up for what is right.

And yes if he installed the update the worst that should happen was that he ended back up with an un modded phone, this is how its been for years with every other phone and firmwares.

sheri1983 have you ever flashed a phone, i though not :(

And i belive in the freedom of the phone, hey if i buy a phone on contract and pay for that contract for its term, it should matter if im using the phone i got with the contract, or if i sold the phone to my mate who used it on another provider.

If holding up on your end of the bargain is dictatorship, sure, I support that ?? i think you mixing two diffirent points there u troll.

As for grave social injustice, the only person who said that here is you... we just said it was wrong, there are many levels of wrong..

As for you can walk on the lava if you like, but think Nike is going to replace those shoes free-of-charge?

I never said i was going to try and get a warwanty replacement, in your example i except i broke them from miss use, the fact of the matter remains i had the choice to do what i wanted and broke them from doing something the shoes were not capable of.

I totally disagree with people bitching at apple about it breaking their phones, in a perfect world the update would have just refused to run on a modded phone or would have returned it to an un modded state.

6129.9.2007 15:51
sheri1983
Inactive

Originally posted by plazma247:
we just said it was wrong, there are many levels of wrong..

BLAH BLAH BLAH

I never said i was going to try and get a warwanty replacement, in your example i except i broke them from miss use, the fact of the matter remains i had the choice to do what i wanted and broke them from doing something the shoes were not capable of.

There are many levels of misuse.

6229.9.2007 15:52

Yes, corporate position being just one.

6329.9.2007 16:02
sheri1983
Inactive

Originally posted by plazma247:
Yes, corporate position being just one.
Yes, and if corporations, Apple Inc. included, repeatedly and flagrantly "misuse" their power, they're punished economically. In simple terms, "If you don't like it, don't buy it".

6429.9.2007 16:04

Wo w, this topic is getting a lot of attention. I agree with those of you who are outraged with this move by Apple. It was not the "unlocking" that broke the phone, it was the UPDATE from Apple that intentionally disabled the phone. What the hell do they care anyway when people are already locked into the AT&T contract?

6529.9.2007 16:07

which is why i didnt buy it thanks. lol

http://www.9to5mac.com/fix-your-bricked-iPhones-pronto-234563

It would appear help is on the way for those with a bricked phone, see bottom of page ;-)

Another good point is that the update doesnt just break the phone (ability to register sim), it also disables all the other features, in every other sim locked phone i have you can still access the features when an incorrect sim.

6629.9.2007 16:10
sheri1983
Inactive

Originally posted by ChiknLitl:
Wo w, this topic is getting a lot of attention. I agree with those of you who are outraged with this move by Apple. It was not the "unlocking" that broke the phone, it was the UPDATE from Apple that intentionally disabled the phone. What the hell do they care anyway when people are already locked into the AT&T contract?
It hasn't been proven that the update intentionally bricked the phones. If it did, that falls under the category of "Doesn't play well with others". However, if the intent was to make my phone better and it happens to break a modded phone in the process, so be it.

Also, remember, this is not an automatic update. You CHOSE to install it. After the warnings Apple gave before the update was released, only a fool (or experimenter) would try the update.

6729.9.2007 16:16

sheri1983 lol your not on apples payrol are you...

Anyway, doesnt matter if they say might, did and will is more the case, and you can call the people fools that ran the update.

But necessity is the mother of all invention :)

A fix is now right round the corner ;)

6829.9.2007 16:16

omg - I wish people would stop saying things like "jonny didn't break the phone, apple did"... jonny could have fucked up the firmware to the point where any update would crash... unless apple look at every mod there is out there and rewrite any updates for it then they didnt break the phone, jonny did!!

If Apple deliberatly went out of their way to make the update check for a modded phone and break it accordingly, then they are wrong - but without somebody checking what is in the update and how the hacks affect it we just don't know.... period.

To stick with the car metaphore, it's like buying a petrol car, modding it by taking out the engine and putting in your own diesel one which looks the same but gives you more miles per gallon. Then taking it to a petrol station where the manufacturer fills it up on petrol... you will fuck up the engine, but it's not the manufacturers fault, all they know is that this model of car takes petrol. The car still takes the fuel (like a modded phone still accepts an update), but for some reason something in the engine fucks up and the car stops working.

Unless we can get the cracked firmwares to block updates, then for the hackers to just send out modified "safe" versions of the updates for people who have a specific hack, then there will just be a risk with modded iPhones being bricked by the next update. The next step is basically for Apple to start blocking the hacks before they happen - then it becomes a cat and mouse game similar to the psp firmware race... where sony release the newest update to stop downgrading/upgrading to modified firmwares. It's a game they will never win tho.


-------------------------------------
XXXxxx Only The Strong Survive xxxXXX
-------------------------------------

6929.9.2007 16:36

So instead of them having to follow laws we should just shut up and not buy their phone? Next time you see somebody robbing your neighbor's house you better just lock your doors and STFU. Hey better them than you plus they get what they deserve cause their house had glass windows right?

7029.9.2007 17:21
sheri1983
Inactive

Originally posted by jacsac:
So instead of them having to follow laws we should just shut up and not buy their phone? Next time you see somebody robbing your neighbor's house you better just lock your doors and STFU. Hey better them than you plus they get what they deserve cause their house had glass windows right?
If that's the way you choose to see it, then, yes.

7129.9.2007 17:21

I have read some ludicrous posts in this thread...most notably the comparisson of Nike shoes...just wow.

You buy the phone, you agree to terms of service. You know the phone is locked to AT&T. You decide to be mr. cool guy and unlock it, good for you. Oh no's, the new update bricked your phone?? Guess what, YOU MODIFIED THE DAMN FIRMWARE, releasing Apple of any contractual obligation with respect to your phone. Now, if this is bricking non modified iphone's then it is a whole different ballgame. If it is only people who modded their phones....play with fire and get burned

/me remembers the MS banning Live thread from months ago

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 29 Sep 2007 @ 17:22


7229.9.2007 17:44
webe123
Inactive

Originally posted by svtstang:
I have read some ludicrous posts in this thread...most notably the comparisson of Nike shoes...just wow.

You buy the phone, you agree to terms of service. You know the phone is locked to AT&T. You decide to be mr. cool guy and unlock it, good for you. Oh no's, the new update bricked your phone?? Guess what, YOU MODIFIED THE DAMN FIRMWARE, releasing Apple of any contractual obligation with respect to your phone. Now, if this is bricking non modified iphone's then it is a whole different ballgame. If it is only people who modded their phones....play with fire and get burned

/me remembers the MS banning Live thread from months ago

GUESS what? You can also take them to court and have a JUDGE order that the monoply on it be dropped! Because all this is doing, is forcing customers to use ONE SERVICE with this phone.

7329.9.2007 17:45

Sorry svtstang, i come from the UK where:

1. It is a legal requirement to for your mobile provider to provide a means of unlocking your phone 6 months into your contract - at your request.

2. It is ILLEGAL to alter the IMEI number of a cellular device in the UK. This is clearly established and Apple themselves will be violating the law if their software update alters this number.

Where whats just happened with the update in the US will be impacted when the phones come in to the UK on O2 and they have to provide this unlocking feature.

Xbox live is an online gaming platform, its not like xbox live then killed your xbox from playing offline games/dvd etc.

Its not really the same thing is it, ok the shoes wasnt that great what i was trying to get across was the fact that once i had got the phone it was mine and if i break it its my fault, i accept that, i wasnt trying to portray the overall scenario of the iphone update.

However can you show me where another device with a modified firmware is then bricked by reloading an original firmware.

Ive updated a firmware on just about every device i can think of and no where can i think of an official firmware ever breaking a non offical firmware after an update.

The PSP is the same flash a non official firmware with an official time without a problem.

In fact in many case the way to unbrick an over tooled device is to reload the official rom.

This is the case as a firmware should completely overwrite the existing firmware.

Having read some other forums it would appear the problem is with the activation of the unlocked phones, however its been confirmed that unlocked phones are actually still network unlocked after the firmware 1.1.1 update. Although they wont activate it reported people have been able to get to the provider info to check its still actually connecting to the celluar network level but not getting past the activation lock (apples new addition to celluar locking). Which says to me its breaking because its either detecting the hack or/and not fully updating the firmware.

In the case of the reports of apple chaning the software imei to report the phone going into lockdown mode, if confirmed would mean they are really detecting the hack or in anycase will be breaking the law if the same will apply this to the iphones coming to the uk.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 29 Sep 2007 @ 18:13

7429.9.2007 21:16

Since the beginning Apple has tried to control the market through marketing equipment that was soon outdated just a small amount so you would be forced to buy all over again. They also try to micromanage what software will run. This I-POD flap is a perfect example of the sneaky way Apple operates and the reason I built CLONES for years and use whatever software. Apple is its own worst enemy and I will not buy their products.
Since some of you guys have hacked the original fireware can't you hack the Apple Destroyerware? Let freedom ring and I think the shoes were a GOOD comparison.

7529.9.2007 21:27

Originally posted by barontc56:
Since the beginning Apple has tried to control the market through marketing equipment that was soon outdated just a small amount so you would be forced to buy all over again. They also try to micromanage what software will run. This I-Phone flap is a perfect example of the sneaky way Apple operates and the reason I built CLONES for years and use whatever software. Apple is its own worst enemy and I will not buy their products.
Since some of you guys have hacked the original firmware can't you hack the Apple Destroyerware? Let freedom ring and I think the shoes were a GOOD comparison.

7629.9.2007 22:52

Originally posted by plazma247:
sheri1983 lol your not on apples payrol are you...

Anyway, doesnt matter if they say might, did and will is more the case, and you can call the people fools that ran the update.

But necessity is the mother of all invention :)

A fix is now right round the corner ;)
Amen brother! Sheesh, can we get a break around here. As for the comparison between MS live and this situation, the MS Live update bricked modded consoles that allowed for game ISO's, apple loses nothing by having people use unlocked phones as you are already locked into the contract with AT&T and have already paid apple their fair share.

Edit: Before I get slammed on it, I was reminded that the Live update only locked the modded boxes out of Live not bricked the console. Thanks Plazma
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 30 Sep 2007 @ 8:42

7730.9.2007 13:29
WierdName
Inactive

Personally, I think everyone is in the wrong. The modders screwed around with their phone, it got locked from an update, that's that. You broke your contract and now have no legal ground. However, Apple should not have put updates out that would lock a modded phone. It is pretty obvious that the update was meant to do that, possibly among other stuff, because it is not bricked and it can still make 911 calls as per the FCC regulation. Part/all of the update was meant to lock up modded phones. This is simply Apple being a [high pitch ring] to it's customer base that does not want to have to only use AT&T with their $600 phone. Back to the other side of the issue though, the modders did in fact break their warranty contract by modding the phone. As Svtstang said, you play with fire, you're gonna get burned. The only thing is that Apple jumped out of the ambulance with a blow torch...
Point is, the modders have no legal ground (other than a loophole), and Apple is just morally being a [high pitch ring].

Edit- Grammer/Spelling

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 30 Sep 2007 @ 13:37

7830.9.2007 15:17
webe123
Inactive

Originally posted by WierdName:
Point is, the modders have no legal ground (other than a loophole), and Apple is just morally being a [high pitch ring].


But they DO have an alternative! They can go to court and let a judge know that apple is trying to force a monoply of service on it's customers!

Apple putting a clause in their user contract does not maan anything. Nor does it automatically make it legal.Everyone just assumes it is, because it is in their contract. Not so.

There have been other legal cases that because a company had something in their contract, people thought it must have been legal. Until it was challenged in court and the company lost...then it was the company that had to backpedal.

So I do not agree with the thinking that because it is in a contract you sign, it is automatically legal!
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 30 Sep 2007 @ 15:20

7930.9.2007 15:25

The phone is bricked, it wont function as normal... bricked is a very lose term applied by moddes to flashs which went wrong.

ok originally its was used for a device which wouldnt startup, but as the years pass by this term has been used in very loose way.

Its possible to completely brick a device and also possible in most cases to recover a bricked device.

no legal ground "other than a loophole" ?

What loop hole....

I think you will find they never broke their contract, the would have still had to continue paying for the service contract which they agreed to be signed up to for 18 months.

However the phones owned out right from day 1, which means you should by right be able to do what you want with it, even if its something that will invalidate the warwanty, as long as you continue to let the mobile contract runs it term and then cancel, you are not breaking contract term (agreed period of contract).

So if your saying that its not legal for me to put that sim into another phone (not the iphone) and use it with my contract which came with the iphone, thats fine. So why should it be any diffirent to do the reverse of this and put the iphone on another provider just as long as i keep paying the contract that came with the iphone.

As webe123 said even tho they have possibily added something to that effect to the contract doesnt mean its legal.

As i said before this is the first time that an offical firmware has rendeded a moded device inoperable after a flash as far im aware, with every other device an original firmware is whats used to unbrick them.

I think anyone who keeps on saying the modders should just accept it blah blah are being too narrow sighted to be able to look at the bigger picture.

Its the fact apple has done something that not really been done before in the electronics world, the xbox hack detect was close in a lose sort of way to this but its not really anything on the same level as apples lock it all down approach.

Anyway the other side to this will be the legalities to the current iphone tactics as the phone starts to appear across the rest of the world in the coming months and weeks.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 30 Sep 2007 @ 15:35

8030.9.2007 15:43

where/are the updates mandatory?

8130.9.2007 17:43

Well the iphone needs to have more flexibility for consumers before it can really make its mark it needs not to be exclusive but it needs to be inclusive.

8230.9.2007 18:32

A monopoly? You have made valid points prior to this, but this is a false statement. When did an exclusivity clause become a monopoly? The iPhone is Apple's creation, if they so wish to only allow a certain service provider to use the product then they can. By doing so they are not single handily taking over the mobile phone market. I am not phone savvy but I can assure you there are other phone models that are exclusive to individual provider's.



8330.9.2007 19:47
WierdName
Inactive

Maybe I should restate what I was saying. I meant that the modders have no legal standpoint because they modded their phones which voided the hardware's warranty. However, the update was a load of B.S. and Apple locking the phone to AT&T- and other companies locking phones too- is also bull. But from a legal standpoint, the modders are screwed because they can't defend themselves because they modded their phones. And what I meant by loophole was something unforeseen that can turn the issue around and give the modders the high ground. This could be something like proving that Apple did in fact screw them over by purposely bricking their phones.

Edit- Also, when I say it's bull to lock the phones to specific carriers, I mean that it is just a nice way to screw over the consumers after they purchase the phone. It is however, perfectly legal for them to make a phone network exclusive but I think there is a law limiting for how long a phone can remain locked before it has to be unlocked per the customers request.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 30 Sep 2007 @ 19:50

843.10.2007 13:29
morguex
Inactive

@svtstang and sheri1983

If I ever meet you two in real life, i will buy the beers.
I'm so sick and tired of people whinning about crap, they choose to screw up in the first place.
You bought the phone, you signed the contract, now live with it.
If you choose to mod the phone and a new update screws it up, who's fault is that? YOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No one forced you to buy the phone or sign the contract. PERIOD!!
But then some people just have to have the lasest and greatest crap out there.
Phew, now I feel a little better.
Peace all

853.10.2007 14:45

Funny thing is no one here actually said it bricked their phone, what the saner people have been trying to do is simply point out how this was a bold move by apple in doing something that has not been really done before.

But looking at :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitrust

The hat does sorta fit, its all down to personal opinion but it is intresting how this is viewed across the international devide, this view can be illustrated in the microsoft anti-trust case which won out in america but has failed numerious appleas in europe.

863.10.2007 16:58

The next time some Apple Geek tries to tell me how his Apple computer is superior to Windows and PC's I will send him this link to show exactly why the world cannot stand Apple no matter how good their shit is.
As long as they keep this crap up they will always be the "also ran" of the PC world.

873.10.2007 18:34

Originally posted by morguex:
@svtstang and sheri1983

If I ever meet you two in real life, i will buy the beers.
I'm so sick and tired of people whinning about crap, they choose to screw up in the first place.
You bought the phone, you signed the contract, now live with it.
If you choose to mod the phone and a new update screws it up, who's fault is that? YOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No one forced you to buy the phone or sign the contract. PERIOD!!
But then some people just have to have the lasest and greatest crap out there.
Phew, now I feel a little better.
Peace all
:)

People love to blame others for their own mistakes, this thread more then proves that idea. I so agree with you it is not funny! By all means feel free to do whatever you want with your possessions since you paid cash that you worked hard for to buy the said possession, but take a reality check when something goes wrong that would have otherwise not of happened if in fact you didn't tamper with the product. I feel for all those with unmodified iphone's that experience problems due to the update, but have 0 compassion for people who screwed with the firmware. Sorry.


885.10.2007 6:46

I don't think that devices should be linked to specific services if you have purchased them outright. In the U.S. though, most phones are not purchased outright, they are given at a steep discount in exchange for using the specific service. I don't know if the Iphone is similar since I have never had any interest in buying anything from Apple. All I can really say is, it was never hidden in any way from consumers that buying the Iphone meant having to use AT&T. If you go out and unlock it with software not approved under the contract, you have nobody to blame but yourself, even if Apple's update did intentionally make it not work. Just because some hacker put out a piece of software making the phone capable of being used on other networks doesn't make it legal for you to do so. If you don't want to use AT&T, then buy a phone from some other company. All that being said, I do think Apple should at least offer a firmware to reset it to original working order, even if the morons who modded the phone have to buy it. This whole thing just makes me glad I never thought of buying their silly phone.

895.10.2007 8:04

Originally posted by svtstang:
A monopoly? You have made valid points prior to this, but this is a false statement. When did an exclusivity clause become a monopoly? The iPhone is Apple's creation, if they so wish to only allow a certain service provider to use the product then they can. By doing so they are not single handily taking over the mobile phone market. I am not phone savvy but I can assure you there are other phone models that are exclusive to individual provider's.
Actually , That is untrue in the US. The iPhone is Apple's creation, and they can require that you buy it from certain places, and offer incentives to do so, and anything else would be considered "Grey market" goods . However, under US Law, those iPhones intended for the US Market, including those sold thru AT&T, are also required to be sold unlocked. If AT&T requires a contract to purchase one, or to get one for $499 instead of $699 , so be it. The Law clearly states that if a customer chooses to buy a particular phone (ANY PHONE) , especially if it's only offered from one carrier, and pay both the activation and either the continuing operating fees OR pay the EARLY termination fees , then it is entirely within our rights as consumers to do so .

THAT is the relevent law regarding changing carriers on an iPhone. Apple and AT&T choose to blatently ignore this law, which went into effect in the second half of 2007.

It does not however protect owners of bricked modded phones. Bricked Modded phones are the owners problem. Personally I would dispose of it as quickly as possable, and destroy the evidence. No one has tried the legal defence of "Apple broke the law, I was trying to undo it" as a defence of breaking the anti-DRM-hacking clause of the DMCA provisions of the renewed Patriot Act. and if they have, it's been kept hush hush just like all the other Patriot Act "holdings" & trials. Even the RIAA and MPAA violaters fall under purvue of the new Patriot Act. Someone in (I think it was in) Kentucky was even arrested by the Feds on DMCA and fought extradition to Gitmo and all of a sudden the news dropped it. Go figure.

/Edit/
I forgot to add..... PrePay/ Pay as you go Phones are still allowed to be locked, for obvious reasons.

(Edited for Typos)
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Oct 2007 @ 14:03

905.10.2007 8:34

And, For good measure, I would expect all those $599/$699 First-day iPhone buyers, bought the iPhone expecting Apple to comply with the law and be sold unlocked, and were perfectly willing to foot the $200 AT&T early-termination fee.

Seriously, if you have $600 to shell for a gadget, you'd be just as likely to have the extra $200 to make the gadget work on any network you've chosen.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Oct 2007 @ 8:52

915.10.2007 12:17
morguex
Inactive

The bottom line is these people bought these phones,they signed the contract, they modded them, now they don't work, so to them I say "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa". Go cry to someone who cares, because it sure isn't me.



If I can't sense time, How can I heal?
Why am I in this precorpse state?

925.10.2007 12:56

Yawn, someone nudge morguex i think the needle is stuck again.

935.10.2007 13:56

Originally posted by plazma247:
Yawn, someone nudge morguex i think the needle is stuck again.
LOL i was thinking the same thing.. Plus, if he/she doesn't care, so very much, WTf does it keep returning to this thread?

945.10.2007 14:13
morguex
Inactive

@plazma247 and Messaline

LOL, yeah I do rant on sometimes.

But when you screw with stuff and it dosen't work afterwards, don't whine about it.

Anyway Peace all


If I can't sense time, How can I heal?
Why am I in this precorpse state?

955.10.2007 14:28

Originally posted by morguex:
@plazma247 and Messaline

LOL, yeah I do rant on sometimes.

But when you screw with stuff and it dosen't work afterwards, don't whine about it.

Anyway Peace all
LOL Right back atcha. :) and I agree about the Modded ones.

965.10.2007 14:30
duke8888
Inactive

This months PC World had an article of a company that offers software for $99 that hacks the phone for most carriers but they have a disclaomer that when they updat the Iphones you need to rebuy their software to keep ahead of the updates. No thanks I have a couple of friends that have them and they hate them.....

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