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Despite Blu-ray's sales lead analysts predict a stalemate

Written by Rich Fiscus (Google+) @ 04 Dec 2007 18:44 User comments (55)

Despite Blu-ray's sales lead analysts predict a stalemate Entertainment industry analysts at Screen Media Digest and Adams Media Research aren't buying into claims by Blu-ray supporters that they're on the verge of victory in the format war with HD DVD. In fact they say nothing has changed, and both formats will almost certainly continue to compete for at least a few more years.
“Both formats will be established and co-exist for the foreseeable future,” said Helen Davis Jayalath, senior analyst at Screen Digest. “By 2012, U.S. high-def software will be evenly split between the two formats, where Blu-ray represents 55% of the market and HD DVD represents 45%. But high-def formats won’t boost volume sales [for home entertainment] to the degree that DVD did [over VHS]. Backwards compatibility and Upscaling reduces consumers’ desire to replace existing DVDs.”

Interestingly, it isn't competition between the two formats that appears to be doing the most damage to either. At the High Def 2.0 conference sponsored by Home Media magazine, analysts from the two companies argued that the biggest factor opposing the success of either format at this time is the continued popularity of DVDs. Although Title sales have been dropping in recent months it's not necessarily a sign that consumers aren't still happy with the technology. Despite major improvements to video and audio quality that are readily visible on most HDTVs, the urgency of the switch from VHS to DVD simply isn't there.

Jayelath also pointed a finger at the war of words on both sides, saying “It’s natural for consumers to be concerned of the two formats because of the extensive press coverage of the format war,” Jayalath explained. “Both camps are publicizing every little victory, and that reinforces the idea of war and the consumer then is sitting tight. That is why there is eight-to-one BD dominance, but only two-to-one dominance in software.”

“The ultimate driver of packaged media depends on the strategic decisions of the studios over the next few years—the consumers haven’t chosen,” said Jayalath.

Source: Video Business

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55 user comments

14.12.2007 23:05
vinny13
Inactive

I'm not surprised... Even though Blu-Ray is selling a fair amount more then HD-DVD at the moment, It's still not enough to change minds.

24.12.2007 23:14

But I thought the war was already over? According to all the fanboys around here anyways.

35.12.2007 0:22

The HD formats need to bring something completely new to the table to completely take over SD DVD. For example, DVD brought a clearer picture, like HD formats do, but DVD also introduced the luxury of not having to mess around with rewinding, fastforwarding and bad tracking. HD formats are just SD DVD on steroids as far as picture/sound quality goes, and people are satisfied with upscaling their SD DVDs and saving some cash. Other than a nicer picture, which really doesn't matter to most since they probably don't have the correct television to display the high quality, HD formats don't offer anything that cannot be done already, and much cheaper at that.

45.12.2007 0:33

Very good point there sciascia. I dont know maybe interactive movies in 3D/HD. Just a thought. Honestly i dont know what they should add because as far as i know its not much left to do with DVD's.

55.12.2007 1:13

I agree!,there isn't a huge difference of content i know that hd dvd has web enables stuff but... i dunno i am one to just want to get to the movie & forget the extra crap! If these guys & by these guys i mean the HD market in general begin BR & HD DVD they both need to come out with ALL new & old movies on there format! I mena when dvd's came out to take over VHS they came out in full force not half force. they came out with New movies along with old movies & t.v. shows! Almost everything that you could get on vhs you could get on DVD well, this is hard now because the older stuff isn't HD Quality so there is no reason to spend another $10-$15 for the HD version! & they cant even seem to come ut with all new movies on the new formats! If there is a movie that i want & they want me to buy there format they MUST have that movie on there format or else i will just buy the plane old DVD!
I guess the short answer is not enough out! Just like a new video game system with 10 games it only has so much appeal! I am not going to spend $500 on an HD player to watch the same 15 movies in HD & the rest in SD!

65.12.2007 2:25

a stalemate? sweet
maybe that'll drive down standalone prices as well as dual-format players quicker..

75.12.2007 3:49
SamNz
Inactive

Originally posted by sk8flawzz:
a stalemate? sweet
maybe that'll drive down standalone prices as well as dual-format players quicker..
stole my comment :p and it should do

85.12.2007 9:01
hughjars
Inactive

Those guys are getting there (they were the ones over a year ago claiming Blu-ray would win weren't they?).

They are just out on their timing.

The coming tidal wave of inexpensive but good quality Chinese HD DVD players are going to make all the difference
(they use the gen 3 Toshiba HD A3 as their reference design and only those with a cheapo 1080p HD TV with a shi*ty deinterlacer built-in to it will notice any difference).

We've about 6mths off of the (regular priced, not holiday season special) sub $100 HD DVD players.
The differences between a good quality upscaling SD DVD player and an excellent quality upscaling DVD player that also happens to be a damned fine HD DVD player are becoming invisible.

It's all about getting the players out there at a sensible pace
(cos even in the US HD TVs are only in just over 30% of homes, in the UK it's under 20% and in continental Europe it's just over 10%)

Soon enough the difference between media will disappear as the SD DVD & HD DVD discs become one with the 'Twin' or 'Total' format triple layer discs
(which will also see the end of the Blu crowing over the Nielson numbers).
If you have an HD TV & an HD DVD player you'll get HD, if you've just got the HD TV and an ordinary SD DVD player you'll get upscaled SD DVD with those discs and if you have an HD DVD player but have not upgraded to an HD TV yet you'll only get everything (at the best possible) SD res quality - but will have the chance to access everything on the disc & the on-line content etc etc.

The game console format that is Blu-ray will carry on for the PS3 game console owners, it'll still be a market of several millions worth selling to.
But as far as the wider (and much bigger) adult a/v market goes the game console will be pretty irrelevant ultimately.

It'll mean about as much as UMD sales mean right now
(and IIRC UMD still outsells both high def formats combined).

I'd also add that anyone who really thinks that the consumer will primarily drive this is kidding themselves.
Costs are what will drive this, the industry's costs.
In that instance HD DVD wins hands-down at every turn.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Dec 2007 @ 9:14

95.12.2007 10:44

Originally posted by hughjars:
I'd also add that anyone who really thinks that the consumer will primarily drive this is kidding themselves.
Costs are what will drive this, the industry's costs.
Forgive me hughjars, but I'm having a difficult time understanding your logic here.

So are you saying that as long as you keep manufacturing costs down you're assured of a successful product? For example, if you can manufacture 1 million units of a product at a cost that's lower than the competition does this mean that you have a winner?

Pardon me but I don't see how you can keep the consumer out of the equation in this. Even if you do have a product that costs less to manufacture but if not enough people are buying it I don't see how you can call that a success. What you have is a warehouse full of unsold product. Ultimately you'll need the consumer to buy what you're selling in order to turn a profit and recoup your R&D and manufacturing costs - no matter how much less they may be compared to your competitor.

I didn't go to business school but I do know that companies spend millions each year for advertising and promotion. I'm assuming they do this because they know that eventually it's consumer acceptance that determines if they turn a profit or not.

Anyone correct me if wrong here but I just don't see how the consumer can be left out of the equation since they eventually determine market acceptance. Manufacturing cost is clearly just part of the whole picture.

Just look at the statements of the analysts in the original news article:

http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?l...09576&rssid=207

Quote:
The main factor eating into high-definition adoption is standard-definition DVD. Consumers can upscale standard-def titles into near high-definition quality on high-def players, which makes spending the money to upgrade libraries to BD and HD DVD less of a priority for consumers, the analysts said.

But high-def formats won’t boost volume sales [for home entertainment] to the degree that DVD did [over VHS]. Backwards compatibility and upscaling reduces consumers’ desire to replace existing DVDs.

She also recommended that the two camps lay off the war mongering public dialog as it discourages consumers from buying into either format.

“It’s natural for consumers to be concerned of the two formats because of the extensive press coverage of the format war,” Jayalath explained. “Both camps are publicizing every little victory, and that reinforces the idea of war and the consumer then is sitting tight.
They're all focused on the consumer.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Dec 2007 @ 11:14

105.12.2007 11:27

I wouldn't count sony out so fast Hugh. Suppose the PS3 makes a huge turn around in sales and takes the lead in the console war, (doubt it, but meh) you'd better believe it would push Blu-ray sales way up.

I could really care less who wins, I've said that before. Most likely, I'll buy a decent player of whichever winning format and just use it to up scale my SD DVD collection. And, even with a true victory from whichever camp, it will never be a complete victory. I know I don't speak for everyone, but I know a lot will agree that it is just moronic to spend more money on an HD movie when a much cheaper SD version is right next to it just waiting to be upscaled. Especially when said movie could of been filmed 5-10 years ago and wont benifit from having an HD picture very much.

I don't know, HD formats just don't have the incentive to make me buy them over an SD format.

115.12.2007 11:32

Originally posted by sciascia:
The HD formats need to bring something completely new to the table to completely take over SD DVD...HD formats are just SD DVD on steroids as far as picture/sound quality goes, and people are satisfied with upscaling their SD DVDs and saving some cash. Other than a nicer picture, which really doesn't matter to most since they probably don't have the correct television to display the high quality, HD formats don't offer anything that cannot be done already, and much cheaper at that.
Very true. I have an upscaling DVD player and am holding out on the HD formats for now...

Originally posted by hughjars:
The differences between a good quality upscaling SD DVD player and an excellent quality upscaling DVD player that also happens to be a damned fine HD DVD player are becoming invisible.

Soon enough the difference between media will disappear as the SD DVD & HD DVD discs become one with the 'Twin' or 'Total' format triple layer discs...
But this would be the one reason to get an HD-DVD player, especially since SD upconverts would irrelevent if you could get the HD player at the SAME price. This is where the industry is headed. HD-DVD planned on being compatible with DVD from the beginning, using the same manufacturing process.

The ultimate reason this format war is going nowhere is the high cost of entry, bundled with the low penetration of HDTV's in consumer homes. One could predict that if your standard DVD player would also play HD-DVD discs, and those discs were a "Total" format, it would be a no-brainer, and even the consumers that have yet to purchase an HDTV may see the future benefit of buying the "dual" players and media.

However, we're still a long way off. I'll wait till "then". :-)

Originally posted by sciascia:
I know a lot will agree that it is just moronic to spend more money on an HD movie when a much cheaper SD version is right next to it just waiting to be upscaled. Especially when said movie could of been filmed 5-10 years ago and wont benifit from having an HD picture very much.

I don't know, HD formats just don't have the incentive to make me buy them over an SD format.
Exactly my thoughts! I was able to pick up the first 2 Bourne movies on DVD for $10 TOTAL. They look and sound great, using my upscale player and a 5.1 system. DVD truly brought the home theatre experience "home". The HD formats are years off from making the same splash in the home a/v pond as DVD did.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Dec 2007 @ 11:36

125.12.2007 12:08
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by eatsushi:
So are you saying that as long as you keep manufacturing costs down you're assured of a successful product?

I just don't see how the consumer can be left out of the equation.
- But I didn't say that the consumer can be left out of the equation entirely, did I?

I'm saying that with both products effectively offering exactly the same thing
(although on the HD DVD there are tangible additional benefits as opposed to Blu-ray's theoretical technical benefit claims)
then it'll come down to cost in the end, as well as the ease of change from SD DVD to HD DVD.

Those inexpensive Chinese entry level players (all based on the excellent HD A3 - a player that ranks with the best - and most expensive - SD DVD players for upscaling & SD DVD playback) are what will make the difference.

The Warners, Disneys and Foxes of this world will row in behind HD DVD (expect the first moves in Jan 2008 announced at CES) with Sony last but eventually cracking.

HD DVD costs so little to produce, comparatively speaking - so margins can either be higher and/or prices kept low, and now has a market fast approaching the 1 million mark in the USA alone, those sub $200/$150/$100 HD DVD players will see the tipping point come.

Product placement is also vital in this.
Sadly for Blu-ray, PS3 is Blu-ray.
It's a game console format.
However understandable it was for the Blu-ray strategy to rest almost entirely on the PS3 it is not the way to win the a/v market and a game console market is not what they were after, but that is all they are getting.
Hence this talk about stalemates.

Originally posted by sciascia:
I wouldn't count sony out so fast Hugh. Suppose the PS3 makes a huge turn around in sales and takes the lead in the console war, (doubt it, but meh) you'd better believe it would push Blu-ray sales way up.
- Whilst I don't doubt your point here I still think that the important point in this has now been reached, the additional sales will be to a PS3/Blu-ray game console market that is never going to take the wider a/v market.

Like I said, it's as meaningful as a rise in UMD sales (which last time I saw numbers still outsold both high def formats combined).

So, so what?

It's a game console market; for now a growing and profitable one too, I'm sure - as indeed is the HD DVD market.....that's another reason why no-one is going to go away for some time yet, they are all making money at this.
But for all that it's never going to make the cross-over to the a/v market.

.....and with Sony's track reord of screwing up their proprietary formats why not bet against this one too?
They have already negated all of that claimed CE industry support, rendering everyone else's Blu-ray players pointless over-priced and firmly bolted to the store shelves
(and that's before we even get to the coming 'profile 1.1' & 'profile' 2.0 fiasco).
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Dec 2007 @ 12:11

135.12.2007 12:25

What I probably should of said was, with all of the things you expect to happen within the next couple of years, (which I don't doubt) how can you not factor in Sony attempting to up the stakes simultaneously? I mean I just couldn't imagine Sony sitting idly by watching HD-DVD run away with the money, er I mean market.

145.12.2007 12:41

Quote:
those sub $200/$150/$100 HD DVD players will see the tipping point come.
This is where we disagree. I think the tipping point won't come with just cheaper players. The real tipping point (and eventual consumer acceptance) will arrive when the cheap players come with discs at price points comparable to regular DVD's: $15 - $19 for new releases and $10 or less for catalog titles.

At current prices I don't see HD media making any headway into SD DVD's numbers.

They really have to counter the $5 bargain bin at WalMart.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Dec 2007 @ 12:47

155.12.2007 13:12
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by sciascia:
I just couldn't imagine Sony sitting idly by watching HD-DVD run away with the money, er I mean market.
- Well they certainly have gotten it very wrong (several times) before.

My bet is that much as they'd have loved to have seen this to a successful conclusion & put a strangle-hold on the movie video market (of course they would have) even they understand it was incredibly ambitious.

....... as well as probably unlikely in the end - as we see with Universal & Paramount (& ...... well, let's just say that you can bet they will be far from alone in the coming year) the movie industry itself was probably never just going to go along with that.

So they end up with a PS3 video market off several millions (probably tens of millions if not approaching the huge 100 million sales of the PS2 predecessor).

It's win/win for them either way and ultimately they will make a lot of money out of it.....just not what they might have made.

Originally posted by eatsushi:
The real tipping point (and eventual consumer acceptance) will arrive when the cheap players come with discs at price points comparable to regular DVD's: $15 - $19 for new releases and $10 or less for catalog titles.
- That is what the 'Twin' or 'Total' version is all about IMO.

Vast production of only that kind of disc - no more split between formats - will see prices fall.

165.12.2007 13:18

Originally posted by hughjars:

- That is what the 'Twin' or 'Total' version is all about IMO.

Vast production of only that kind of disc - no more split between formats - will see prices fall.
Not if they are priced the same as current Combo Format releases which are $27 to $30.

175.12.2007 15:01
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by eatsushi:
Not if they are priced the same as current Combo Format releases which are $27 to $30.
- No chance of that.

For a start the combo is basically an HD DVD glued to an SD DVD, it's convenient but relatively expensive to produce.

Twin or Total is as cheap & easy to produce as making a DVD (or for that matter HD DVD).

When the HD DVD studios shift to only producing these types of discs prices will go through the floor.

185.12.2007 15:06

I think Michael Bay pretty much sum up this whole format war stuff from his blog response yesterday.


Michael Bay Accuses HD DVD-Backing Microsoft of "Dirty Tricks"
Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 01:02 PM ET



When Michael Bay speaks, the world listens. The 'Transformers' director is talking out again about the high-def format war, and is again generating lots of press.

As countless web sites have reported over the last 24 hours, Bay's latest remarks came in response to question posed to him on his own official web site.



Asked why his mega hit 'Transformers' was released on HD DVD only (and not on Blu-ray), the director pointed the blame squarely at Microsoft, saying that the software giant has bankrolled HD DVD in an effort to extend the high-def format war until the software giant can perfect digital downloads.

"Microsoft wants both formats to fail so they can be heroes and make the world move to digital downloads" said Bay. "That is the dirty secret no one is talking about. That is why Microsoft is handing out $100 million dollar checks to studios just embrace the HD DVD and not the leading, and superior Blu Ray."

Bay's accusations echo earlier comments made by Fox Home Entertainment worldwide president Mike Dunn, who was quoted by The Hollywood Reporter at an October Blu-ray press event as blasting "the orchestrated campaigns of confusion and anti-consumerism fueled by an 800-pound gorilla that would prefer to force us all into the practice of paying tolls for the right to exchange information and enjoy entertainment."

At the time, Microsoft Consumer Media Technology Group director Kevin Collins defended the company’s stance, calling Dunn's accusations "baseless."

As we've previously reported, Bay caused a firestorm back in September when he briefly posted a message to his site saying that he was reconsidering doing a 'Transformers' sequel after learning that Paramount would not be issuing a Blu-ray edition of his mega-hit film. The director later recanted those remarks, but has since reiterated his pro-Blu-ray stance.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/M...rty_Tricks/1235

It makes perfect sense if you think about it because Microsoft never committed to anything thats why they didn't support a built in HD-DVD
sku like Toshiba wanted.Also with there comments on a future Blu-Ray add-on if needed.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Dec 2007 @ 15:08

195.12.2007 15:37

while Blu-ray, being overpriced as it might be for both consumers or even as you say producers, it still is enjoying being on top and in my mind still has a lot more leverage. i'd still argue the costs of electronics decreases with time so with the lead blu-ray already has i'd expect that lead to increase as prices in the future become more competitive and thus, more affordable. what we have been seeing with blu-ray sales is what is being regarded as the "PLAYSTATION EFFECT." it not only increases sales but also creates economies of scale, with economies of scale comes cost effective disc replication.

could it be that with economies of scale and this playstation effect, that we could actually see a drop in movie prices on the BR side? now that would certainly be a very strategic response to those cheap standalone prices, would it not? personally i feel that if movie prices dropped on the BR side, its effect would be too much for HD-DVD to take on. keep in mind that multiplatform games manufactured for the PS3 and on Blu-ray cost no more or less than those being manufactured on standard DVDs for the 360. games are games and movies are movies, but the medium is still the same. so i dont think my theory is out of this world or anything

oh and your argument about keeping margins low with the approaching 1 million milestone is useless, unless you see a large increase in the volume of media sales. maybe instead of arguing cheap prices of standalone players, you argue cheaper movie prices. have you not yet figured out where the bulk of profit comes from in the movie biz? its not from the sales of standalone players, i'll tell you that. If you want strong numbers, increase consumer support, then you have to drop the price of movies for HD-DVD.

the only problem is if you drop the price you reduce your revenues, this becomes extremely bad if Blu-ray continues to outsell HD-DVD as there would be no reason for studios to think about switching over. if with a reduction in price and a dramatic increase in HD-DVD sales, sales outpacing Blu-ray occurs, well now you have some fuel for the fight.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Dec 2007 @ 16:17

205.12.2007 15:43

Sure it makes sence that Microsoft would do that, but I would put all my eggs into the basket that is Michael Bay.

One question directed to Hugh,

How can you call Blu-Ray a game console format? Was DVD just a game console format? No. I'm pretty sure there always were plans to introduce Blu-ray independently as a new HD format and when the PS3 rolled around they decided to use the high capacity disc medium for games aswell, a real win win for them I guess. Blu-Ray wasn't build around the PS3 or vice versa. If you have proof otherwise then please show me.

215.12.2007 15:59
vinny13
Inactive

"Some people" call it that because the PS3 seems to be the biggest selling "stand alone" for Blu-Ray, and that same "some people" believe it will become another UMD.

225.12.2007 16:01

Originally posted by hughjars:

- No chance of that.
For a start the combo is basically an HD DVD glued to an SD DVD, it's convenient but relatively expensive to produce.
Twin or Total is as cheap & easy to produce as making a DVD (or for that matter HD DVD).
Here are figures for typical replication costs for HD DVD and BluRay:

http://wesleytech.com/blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd-...yzed-again/113/

For a batch of 10,000 discs:
HD DVD SL $11,500
HD DVD DL $13,000
BluRay SL $13,000
BluRay DL $14,500

He couldn't get actual figures for combo format discs but it's presumed that they cost more judging by their retail prices.

He also estimates that TL51 discs could come close to the cost of BluRay DL:

http://wesleytech.com/blu-ray-the-layer-advantage/117/

So until we get actual figures for replication costs for TL Twin and TL 51's it's pure speculation to set prices.

235.12.2007 16:50
morguex
Inactive

Quote:
"The main factor eating into high-definition adoption is standard-definition DVD. Consumers can upscale standard-def titles into near high-definition quality on high-def players, which makes spending the money to upgrade libraries to BD and HD DVD less of a priority for consumers, the analysts said."

So than whats next in this stupid little Hi-Def. war.
Stopping the manufacture of SD DVD?
Wouldn't suprise me if they did.
As for Michael Bay he can "Shut the hell up."
Peace all

245.12.2007 18:55

BD and $ony might get some help this year. Nintendo is having trouble keeping up with the demand of the Wii. With most of the available Wii's being snatched up by those looking to make a buck, you won't find one on any shelves this Christmas. They are producing just under 2 mil a month. With this in mind, the PS3 will most likely be the second choice since there are more than enough on the shelves collecting dust.

I currently have a PS3 that I am using to play movies rather than the blah line-up of games. As soon as the HD-DVD players drop to the $100 level I will probably buy one. My concern is price and movie selection. Neither format has the movies I crave at prices that I can tolerate.

255.12.2007 19:06
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by sciascia:
Sure it makes sence that Microsoft would do that, but I would put all my eggs into the basket that is Michael Bay.
- Bay's (by his own previous admission) an ill-informed jerk.

He's spouting falsehoods too.

(there are now no technical areas where Blu-ray holds any advantage over HD DVD, except for 1 still currently unknown.

We currently don't know if the 51gb TL HD DVD disc has retained the 1.5x spin speed of the original 45gb TL HD DVD had, if it has then even on the raw bitrate capability HD DVD will exceed the Blu-ray spec)

Even in the so-called 'developed 1st world' his loopy idea of Microsoft just waiting for both high def formats to die off before rushing in with a download-only future is utterly at odds with present day (or even near future) reality.

We just don't have enough of us with the fast connections (not forgetting the now common capped download limits) to make such a possibility feasible for a long long time.

Downloads are bound to grow and will be a growing section of the market but the idea of Microsoft hoping to stall things for an imminent 'winner takes all' with both disc formats failing is sheer delusion.

It's a little surprising too considering some want to protray him as with insider connections and being in the know (although quite why he's meant to know so much as a director I really can't work out).

Frankly I think he's been taken in by his idiot friends again or he's been interviewed whist pi$$ed up on the Kool Aid (which was his excuse last time IIRC).

....or is it just a case of 'Michael 'say something to generate a little controversy & personal publicity Bay' cos the Transformers 2 job is someone else's?

Originally posted by sciascia:
One question directed to Hugh,

How can you call Blu-Ray a game console format?
- Because the overwhelming bulk of Blu-ray capable players are PS3s.

Without PS3 Blu-ray died long ago, in fact without PS3 Blu-ray hasn't even got out of the starting blocks.

Originally posted by sciascia:
Was DVD just a game console format?
- There is no serious comparison.

DVD was already well on the way to being properly established in the a/v market long before PS2 came along.

Originally posted by sciascia:
Blu-Ray wasn't build around the PS3 or vice versa. If you have proof otherwise then please show me.
- Actually that is not true.

PS3 was specifically designed to be a 'Trojan Horse' for Blu-ray.

There are fairly well known quotes available from Sony execs saying precisely this.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Dec 2007 @ 19:18

265.12.2007 20:10

Quote:
- Actually that is not true.

PS3 was specifically designed to be a 'Trojan Horse' for Blu-ray.

There are fairly well known quotes available from Sony execs saying precisely this.
Can you show me some please? I was under the impression Blu-Ray wasn't created specifically as a media for PS3.

275.12.2007 20:46

If you can't see that Sony used it's incredibly popular Playstation brand to carry the Blu-Ray banner then you are truly blind.
It's well known that Sony wasn't going to bow down to a HD-DVD/Blu-Ray compromise,neither were Toshiba so Sony played their Ace card and wheeled in the Playstation Blu-Ray Trojan Horse...SAD but TRUE.
All them super corporations are a bunch of greedy kids and it's left us consumers picking up the pieces of a confusing media mess-up.
Whats really strange is Toshiba is best friends with Sony when it comes to the CELL chip.It makes you wonder whether this whole HD WAR was just another money making scam.If you think about it,selling one movie multiple times,extended edition,directors cut,Special re-masted 1080P/24fps edition is the real eye opener.
Its sad enough seeing the countless special editions of DVD's being snapped up and now that HD is here they can double all those profits all over again.Don't be suprised if in the future it happens all over again with 3D-remastered editions on players and TV's of the future.You heard it here first.It could be that the HD war is merely a distraction.Are they the puppet-masters pulling consumer strings making us look like frikkin' muppets....it wouldn't be the first time.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Dec 2007 @ 20:49

285.12.2007 21:31
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by sciascia:
Can you show me some please? I was under the impression Blu-Ray wasn't created specifically as a media for PS3.
- This is the best one cos it's not on some biased fanzine site or in a dumb fanmag.

This is from the UK Guardian, if that doesn't prove the point I don't know what does, straight from the horses mouth......

Quote:
Is the Sony PlayStation 3 a game console with a built-in Blu-ray bundled in or is it in fact a Blu-ray player masquerading as a game console? The Guardian website in the UK thinks it's the latter.

The Guardian interviewed Sony Europe VP Matt Brown and read between the lines to conclude that Sony is propagating the storage format using the PS3 as the Trojan horse to carry the drive that will help win the war against the HD DVD.

"The PS3 is going to help us do the job," says Brown. He explained that by selling the PS3, they bring the number of Blu-ray owners up. That way, even if consumers actually prefer the HD-DVD format, they'll have a Blu-ray drive by default and that gives them a compelling reason to use it and buy Blu-ray discs with games and movies in them.

Evidence for this strategy, the Guardian says, is the fact that the high-end PS3 is priced lower than most Blu-ray players. Thus, the wiser thing to do in this case would be to buy the PS3 and forget the player. The move is reminiscent of how Microsoft won its browser war against Netscape by bundling the Internet Explorer with the Windows operating system.
This one is a good one too

Quote:
"if I do a good job then in six months we won't be having a conversation [about formats]. And the PS3 is going to help us do the job ...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/200...laystation.sony

- BTW the article is dated 29th march 2007; his "in 6mths time" comment is pretty funny considering how it's all working out - talk about giving hostages to fortune (I wonder if he got a bonus this year!) LMAO.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Dec 2007 @ 21:38

295.12.2007 21:53

Originally posted by hughjars:
- Because the overwhelming bulk of Blu-ray capable players are PS3s.

Without PS3 Blu-ray died long ago, in fact without PS3 Blu-ray hasn't even got out of the starting blocks.
Thats not true Blu-Ray(1995) was in development long before HD(2003) was Blu-Ray had this advantage in Japan with 95% of the market before anything was ever launched on HD-DVD.

Blu-Ray Disc, or BD, was developed by Sony, Matsushita, and Philips, with the first stages of development commencing back in 1995. Rather than propose the format to the DVD Forum, Sony appealed to major electronics companies, and many signed on in support of the format, creating the Blu-Ray Disc Association (BDA). Critics occasionally cite the fact that Blu-Ray did not go through official approval channels; however, at the time of this writing, at least seven of the DVD Forum's original ten founders now support Blu-Ray.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/hddvd_bluray.htm

305.12.2007 21:58
vinny13
Inactive

Wow all the way back in 1995 they had this in mind?

Lol I wonder what a BR player would cost back then :P

315.12.2007 22:32

Originally posted by hughjars:
I'd also add that anyone who really thinks that the consumer will primarily drive this is kidding themselves.
Costs are what will drive this, the industry's costs.

This just doesn't make sense and I'd have to agree with eatsushi and hade on this.

Without widespread consumer acceptance, HD media will be the next laserdisc.

Quote:
oh and your argument about keeping margins low with the approaching 1 million milestone is useless, unless you see a large increase in the volume of media sales. maybe instead of arguing cheap prices of standalone players, you argue cheaper movie prices. have you not yet figured out where the bulk of profit comes from in the movie biz? its not from the sales of standalone players, i'll tell you that. If you want strong numbers, increase consumer support, then you have to drop the price of movies for HD-DVD.
Now this is something that I would definitely agree with.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Dec 2007 @ 22:59

326.12.2007 6:57
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by juankerr:
This just doesn't make sense and I'd have to agree with eatsushi and hade on this.
- ....and like I said, I do not think the consumer will be ignored entirely.

Originally posted by juankerr:
Without widespread consumer acceptance, HD media will be the next laserdisc.
- Consumer acceptance is a given, thanks to the strategy.

All you have to do is remove the distinction between SD & HD DVD.

The consumer is already buying HD TVs and HD TV services.
All that has to then happen is for their next upscaling DVD player to also happen to play HD DVDs
(all at the same kind of pricing they expect to pay for their SD DVD players).

Ditto the media (which as I said is on the way with single sided 'twin/total' discs).

Originally posted by juankerr:
Now this is something that I would definitely agree with.
- Like I said, I don't think it's a case of 'either, or'.
Their strategy is obviously, for now, to get more and more players out there.

You'd have to be crazy to imagine SD DVD movie sales are going to dry up anytime soon; IMO they simply recognise this reality and working with it.

I think it's obvious they are going to merge SD & HD DVD with the 'Twin' or 'Total' disc and by being everything on one side (as opposed to the flipper = effectively 2 discs glued together) there should be no cost implications.

Originally posted by nextgen76:
Thats not true
- It is true.

There are several million PS3s to a couple of hundred thousand Blu-ray stand-alones.

Why are you even bothering to try and lie about this?

Originally posted by nextgen76:
Blu-Ray(1995) was in development long before HD
- and so what?

Blu-ray was specifically developed to take power away from the consumer (it has additional 'security' HD DVD does not have and makes a selling point of it).

Blu-ray was also specifically intended to return to the involved CE corporations the kinds of profit margins they had when DVD first appeared.

.....and whilst you (not quite) trot out the old line that Sony weren't so heavily involved it is a fact that Sony are the primary developer and hold the majority of key patents in Blu-ray.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 Dec 2007 @ 7:08

336.12.2007 8:28

Originally posted by hughjars:
Consumer acceptance is a given, thanks to the strategy.
Not really.

HD media could remain a niche product if the studios don't universally adopt the twin/total discs.

If they release a title on SD DVD at a lower price compared to the total/twin DVD then the strategy falls to pieces. They have to completely stop producing SD DVD's for the strategy to work.

Quote:
I think it's obvious they are going to merge SD & HD DVD with the 'Twin' or 'Total' disc and by being everything on one side (as opposed to the flipper = effectively 2 discs glued together) there should be no cost implications.

Cost is still a factor since you're forgetting the pre-replication process for HD DVD. Factor in the cost of authoring the discs and adding HDi features. The movie then has to be mastered and encoded in 1080p/24, not to mention those films that will carry lossless audio. Remember they have to pay royalties for the use of the VC1 codec. It will still be more expensive for the studios to produce twin/total compared to plain old SD DVD.

The other thing is to assure glitch free playback of the twin/total format. I'm keeping my fingers crossed on this in view of the sporadic reports of playback problems with combos.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 Dec 2007 @ 9:05

346.12.2007 10:28

Ok, no offence, but you posted information everyone already knew. Everyone knew the PS3 would have some sort of Blu-Ray playback ability. My question was, did they develop the Blu-Ray media as the sole media for PS3 games, AKA build Blu-Ray around the idea of the PS3 and not the other way around. The only reason I say this is because of your comments about it being a console format, which you haven't been able to prove yet. Yes everyone always knew that the PS3 would be a blu-ray player but was Blu-Ray developed specifically for PS3 games?

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 Dec 2007 @ 10:30

356.12.2007 10:40
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by sciascia:
My question was, did they develop the Blu-Ray media as the sole media for PS3 games, AKA build Blu-Ray around the idea of the PS3 and not the other way around.
- I doubt there was ever anythings as simple as just the one 'true' reason behind this.

Originally posted by sciascia:
The only reason I say this is because of your comments about it being a console format, which you haven't been able to prove yet.
- Well what else do you call it when the overwhelming majority (90%+) of players are game consoles?

Nevermind the theory, what is the reality?

The reality is that Blu-ray depends entirely unpon the PS3, without the PS3 Blu-ray is utterly invisible and died long ago.

Originally posted by sciascia:
Yes everyone always knew that the PS3 would be a blu-ray player but was Blu-Ray developed specifically for PS3 games?
- It was (from the original Sony perspective) a happy 'marriage' and one they imagined would push the Blu-ray format
(as they themselves admit - and note it's not the other way around).

It's been obvious for a long time that they intended to use the PS3 in this manner.
That 'Trojan horse' moniker did not come from Toshiba or Microsoft.

366.12.2007 11:15

Quote:
Originally posted by sciascia:
My question was, did they develop the Blu-Ray media as the sole media for PS3 games, AKA build Blu-Ray around the idea of the PS3 and not the other way around.
- I doubt there was ever anythings as simple as just the one 'true' reason behind this.

Originally posted by sciascia:
The only reason I say this is because of your comments about it being a console format, which you haven't been able to prove yet.
- Well what else do you call it when the overwhelming majority (90%+) of players are game consoles?

Nevermind the theory, what is the reality?

The reality is that Blu-ray depends entirely unpon the PS3, without the PS3 Blu-ray is utterly invisible and died long ago.

Originally posted by sciascia:
Yes everyone always knew that the PS3 would be a blu-ray player but was Blu-Ray developed specifically for PS3 games?
- It was (from the original Sony perspective) a happy 'marriage' and one they imagined would push the Blu-ray format
(as they themselves admit - and note it's not the other way around).

It's been obvious for a long time that they intended to use the PS3 in this manner.
That 'Trojan horse' moniker did not come from Toshiba or Microsoft.

Granted, if HD-DVD took the same approach with X360 and the circumstances were the same as they are now for blu-ray/PS3, you wouldn't be call HD-DVD a 'Game format'. Either way, I don't feel it's necessary to refer to it as a game format when it never was intended to be one.

You keep bringing up the same things about evil sony using the ps3 as a piggy back for Blu-Ray, but nobody was denying that marketing strategy. The simple fact is, Blu-Ray was created as a multipurpose storage medium, nothing more, or less. If anything, sony should be given a pat on the back for using their common sense and figuring out the best way to get their media into peoples homes. I'm sure if Microsoft were to do the same with HD-DVD (which at one point they were supposed to) they'd be viewed as a marketing genius.

376.12.2007 13:08

Originally posted by hughjars:
- It is true.

There are several million PS3s to a couple of hundred thousand Blu-ray stand-alones.

Why are you even bothering to try and lie about this?
Reason being that PS3 was a bargain for the price when PS3 first lauched BD standalone was 900 bucks why any smart consumer going to pay that much if they can get it 300 or 400 bucks cheaper.The reason BD standalone isn't selling well because PS3 price point right now you just can't beat & as it has showed PS3 BD player is top of the line even with the DVD-up scaler inside.

This say alot about HD-DVD if 6 million PS3 300,000 BD standalone can get BD 65 percent of the HD market in the US,95% in Japan 73% in EUR what happens when BD players reach 200 & 100 bucks ? that right HD-DVD will be a format of the past.HD-DVD with cheaper standalone can't even crack into BD share of the HD- market right now.Its all goes back too what eatsushi stated about HD media prices need to be lower also is a great point because right now HD-DVD blank media is still high now were as BD blank media is half the price it was a year ago.But BD movie are cheaper than HD-DVD movie because HD-DVD wanted to use the trojan horse combo format.

Quote:
So where does that leave us now? To whom do Combo discs currently appeal? Average movie buyers have continued to stick with the more affordable DVD-only option, a complete failure of the Trojan Horse plan. HD DVD buyers are upset that they're being forced to pay extra for a "feature" they will rarely (if ever) use. And those who support both HD DVD and Blu-ray would just as soon buy the Blu-ray that's $5 cheaper with the same quality and features. Combo discs put HD DVD in a no-win situation.

Worse than that, the damn discs don't even work half the time! Just the other night, I sat down to watch my recently-purchased HD DVD copy of '300' on my Toshiba HD-XA2 player, and I only made it 45 minutes before the stupid thing froze up and ceased playback. No matter how many times I try to restart the movie, the disc will not play beyond Chapter 14. This is an extremely high-profile release; in fact, it's currently the best-selling title on either the HD DVD or Blu-ray formats, and the disc won't function in a top-of-the-line HD DVD player! Who wants to put up with nonsense like that? I certainly don't.

Let's not kid ourselves that this is an isolated defective disc or a one-time anomaly. Complaints about playback problems on '300' are widespread, and similar compatibility issues have plagued earlier Combo releases such as 'Children of Men', 'The Good Shepherd', 'Happy Feet', 'Superman Returns', and 'The Matrix Reloaded' (copies from the expensive 'Ultimate Matrix Collection' box set which has the bonus features in DVD format on the flip-side of the disc). Some of these will only work properly on second-generation HD DVD players but not first-generation models, and some bizarrely just the opposite. Some function fine on Toshiba's players but not on Microsoft's HD DVD add-on accessory for the XBox 360, and others vice versa. Some don't work right on any player at all.
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/J..._Went_Wrong/894

386.12.2007 13:37

Really not much of a surprise the prices the hardware in the end are the same to the brunt of consuemrs us geeks and wannabes(zippy is teh wana be :P) can hash out the difference's all we want the trouble is most people don't care.


the price of the players can be within 100$ difference of each other and practicably sale the same, its when the videos fall in price thats when the quickening should come.


I the end gvie me a nice dual player and I will be done with caring who wins ,sony has sold off BD+ so tis not goign to be the beast it could have been.

396.12.2007 13:47
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by sciascia:
if HD-DVD took the same approach with X360 and the circumstances were the same as they are now for blu-ray/PS3, you wouldn't be call HD-DVD a 'Game format'.
- If the situation was reversed and HD DVD had developed an almost complete reliance on a game console then the truth is that actually I would.

And I would believe it wholly justified to do so.

Originally posted by sciascia:
Either way, I don't feel it's necessary to refer to it as a game format when it never was intended to be one.
- Well we'll have to agree to disagree then.

The reality is the PS3 = Blu-ray.

Blu-ray is a game console format
(with a tiny amount of stand-alone & PC burner activity tacked on).

Originally posted by sciascia:
You keep bringing up the same things about evil sony using the ps3 as a piggy back for Blu-Ray, but nobody was denying that marketing strategy.
- Er, "evil"!?

I don't think I talk in those terms.

I leave all that ridiculous 'hate' and 'love' (in relation to CE corporations and their products) to the game console fans.

I do see the additional built-in DRM/security that they have deliberately incorporated into Blu-ray as anti-consumer.

Ditto their stated attempt to restore the kinds of profit margins DVD 'enjoyed' when it was new.

I merely bring up the fact that Blu-ray has deliberately piggybacked on the PS3 (which is undeniable) to re-butt the claims that such a thing was
(a) unexpected;
(b) that the PS3 was always bound to sell multi-millions on it's brand name alone - even if it is a disappointment in it's own game market and
(c) that in the light of that reality Blu-ray's performance is far from impressive in fact.

Originally posted by sciascia:
If anything, sony should be given a pat on the back for using their common sense and figuring out the best way to get their media into peoples homes.
- You seem to think that I'm calling foul on their tactics, well they're certainly legal and above board in the absolute sense but IMO it is still pretty sh*tty behaviour.

I loath the product and the intent behind it and I think their 'use' of gamers in this is pretty low.

Once their tactics are understood it can easily be seen just how they have used each market, game and video/movie.

Originally posted by sciascia:
I'm sure if Microsoft were to do the same with HD-DVD (which at one point they were supposed to) they'd be viewed as a marketing genius.
- I think anyone taking a fair-minded view of this would not be seeing any kind of equivalence between Sony & Microsoft
(contrary to some of the Blu-ray fanboy claims Microsoft don't even hold all the VC-1 patents) .
Again, IMO, that's one for the console fans to pointlessly chew over.

Originally posted by NexGen76:
Reason being that PS3 was......blah blah blah.
- You shifting to a drawn out explanation of how great & amazing you believe the PS3 to be is very interesting (to yourself) I'm sure nextgen but that was hardly relevant to the original point.

I said "the overwhelming bulk of Blu-ray capable players are PS3s.

Without PS3 Blu-ray died long ago, in fact without PS3 Blu-ray hasn't even got out of the starting blocks.


- You then tried to swerve off on to some unrelated nonsense about the beginnings of Blu-ray development.

"Thats not true Blu-Ray(1995) was in development long before HD(2003) was Blu-Ray had this advantage in Japan with 95% of the market before anything was ever launched on HD-DVD."

- I replied

"It is true.

There are several million PS3s to a couple of hundred thousand Blu-ray stand-alones. "


- Which is the truth.
Your meandering load of waffle about how great you think the PS3 is doesn't answer that point at all.

Blu-ray is utterly reliant on the PS3.

They have sold so few Blu-ray stand-alones (and expensive PC burners) that had they relied on them alone this so-called 'war' would have ended long ago......well, actually it would hardly have even started.

406.12.2007 13:52

hughjars
dude you know I love ya but can we dial the rhetoric down a bit eh?
:P

On a side note the PS3 lacks full hardware BWC to be worth the asking price, the 360 is 100$ to much for 1 thing,the locked USB(hardware issues be damned if I can fully transfer sht back and forth as I please!).

416.12.2007 14:11

Originally posted by ZippyDSM:
hughjars
dude you know I love ya but can we dial the rhetoric down a bit eh?
:P

Amen.

426.12.2007 14:49
hughjars
Inactive

So what's up?

I've been directly asked several questions and I've dome my best to directly answer and give either the supporting facts I was asked for or given my view (which I was asked for).

Was I abusive or insulting, I don't think so.

So, like I said, what's up?

436.12.2007 14:55

Originally posted by hughjars:
So what's up?

I've been directly asked several questions and I've dome my best to directly answer and give either the supporting facts I was asked for or given my view (which I was asked for).

Was I abusive or insulting, I don't think so.

So, like I said, what's up?
the HDVD V BR stuff...just alil thick...rhetorically speaking.... otherwise god stuff and good points.

446.12.2007 15:21

Originally posted by hughjars:
So what's up?

I've been directly asked several questions and I've dome my best to directly answer and give either the supporting facts I was asked for or given my view (which I was asked for).

Was I abusive or insulting, I don't think so.

So, like I said, what's up?
You dodge questions like dodge ball.rotfl

You still haven't answer this or showed proof.

Originally posted by sciascia:
My question was, did they develop the Blu-Ray media as the sole media for PS3 games, AKA build Blu-Ray around the idea of the PS3 and not the other way around. The only reason I say this is because of your comments about it being a console format, which you haven't been able to prove yet. Yes everyone always knew that the PS3 would be a blu-ray player but was Blu-Ray developed specifically for PS3 games?
Your answer which i find laughable & completely dogde the question then answer with a baseless pointless answer.

Originally posted by Hughjars:
Because the overwhelming bulk of Blu-ray capable players are PS3s.

Without PS3 Blu-ray died long ago, in fact without PS3 Blu-ray hasn't even got out of the starting blocks.
But how is that possible if Blu-Ray has been launched in Japan & has been very successfully before HD was even launched like NexGen proved here?

Originally posted by Nexgen76:
Thats not true Blu-Ray(1995) was in development long before HD(2003) was Blu-Ray had this advantage in Japan with 95% of the market before anything was ever launched on HD-DVD.
Please just stop it because all you nonsense logic has been laughable.Your the only one here that hasn't been on the same page.You claim to state facts in which you got them mixed up with your opinions.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 Dec 2007 @ 15:41

456.12.2007 15:21

Nah this is pretty civilized conversation, especially if you'd look back at some of the old news posts where people were especially trolling and whatnot. Like Hugh said, agree to disagree which is something I wholeheartedly agree with. No hard feelings, just passing the ball back and forth.

466.12.2007 15:31

Quote:
Originally posted by hughjars:
So what's up?

I've been directly asked several questions and I've dome my best to directly answer and give either the supporting facts I was asked for or given my view (which I was asked for).

Was I abusive or insulting, I don't think so.

So, like I said, what's up?
You dodge questions like dodge ball.rotfl
At least he dosent naw on it and droll like I do >>

and I am a cat dammit!

476.12.2007 16:26
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:
You still haven't answer this or showed proof.
- I see, so unless it's a simplistic 'either, or' answer you call it a dodge?

Figures (from the guy who a little while back was trying to tell people a short while ago here that "Blu-ray is uncompress data").
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/590629

Wow BoSoxs, you're just way too crafty for me.

(btw you might care to know that compression is not the be-all and end-all of anything, it's whether it's lossy or lossless that matters)

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:
Your answer which i find laughable & completely dogde the question then answer with a baseless pointless answer.
- OK, so what's so "pointless" about it?

Is it true that over 90% of Blu-ray capable machines are PS3s?

Why, yes it is.

No dodge there at all.

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:
But how is that possible if Blu-Ray has been launched in Japan & has been very successfully before HD was even launched like NexGen proved here?
- Er, Blu-ray was in development.

Where did you get the idea that Blu-ray launched before HD DVD?

Do you have problems reading or something?

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:
Please just stop it because all you nonsense logic has been laughable.Your the only one here that hasn't been on the same page.You claim to state facts in which you got them mixed up with your opinions.
- You could do with a lie down in a quiet darkened room.

Seriously, you're just embarrassing yourself.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 Dec 2007 @ 16:36

486.12.2007 16:46

Originally posted by hughjars:

Where did you get the idea that Blu-ray launched before HD DVD?

Actually, BoSoxs07 and NexGen are, in a manner of speaking, correct. The first BluRay devices were released in Japan in April 2003, long before HD DVD was launched. It was the Sony BDZ-S77 BD-RE recorder which had the ability to record OTA or cable 1080i/720p signals:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/blu-ray/

An offshoot of the BluRay project was the ProDATA format which was designed for corporate data storage. The first ProData devices were introduced mid-2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Disc_for_DATA

BluRay as a medium for pre-recorded video (BD-ROM) did come out after HD DVD was introduced in 2006. However, as you can see, there were BluRay enabled devices long before then and long before the PS3 was introduced.

496.12.2007 17:11

Originally posted by juankerr:
Originally posted by hughjars:

Where did you get the idea that Blu-ray launched before HD DVD?

Actually, BoSoxs07 and NexGen are, in a manner of speaking, correct. The first BluRay devices were released in Japan in April 2003, long before HD DVD was launched. It was the Sony BDZ-S77 BD-RE recorder which had the ability to record OTA or cable 1080i/720p signals:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/blu-ray/

An offshoot of the BluRay project was the ProDATA format which was designed for corporate data storage. The first ProData devices were introduced mid-2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Disc_for_DATA

BluRay as a medium for pre-recorded video (BD-ROM) did come out after HD DVD was introduced in 2006. However, as you can see, there were BluRay enabled devices long before then and long before the PS3 was introduced.
And its still not doing that well 0-o

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

506.12.2007 17:36

Quote:
Originally posted by hughjars:

Where did you get the idea that Blu-ray launched before HD DVD?

Actually, BoSoxs07 and NexGen are, in a manner of speaking, correct. The first BluRay devices were released in Japan in April 2003, long before HD DVD was launched. It was the Sony BDZ-S77 BD-RE recorder which had the ability to record OTA or cable 1080i/720p signals:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/blu-ray/

An offshoot of the BluRay project was the ProDATA format which was designed for corporate data storage. The first ProData devices were introduced mid-2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Disc_for_DATA

BluRay as a medium for pre-recorded video (BD-ROM) did come out after HD DVD was introduced in 2006. However, as you can see, there were BluRay enabled devices long before then and long before the PS3 was introduced.
Thank You i rest my case this guy is nothing more than a PR piece for HD-DVD.But if you going to know about HD formats at lease know when they was released.You the same person back in Jan or Feb that didn't even know that the combo HD-DVD format disc was released.I remember that because error5 told you & you said they was not released yet?

Dam the posts will only let you go back 6 months.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 Dec 2007 @ 17:38

516.12.2007 19:15
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by juankerr:
Actually, BoSoxs07 and NexGen are, in a manner of speaking, correct.
- You're far too kind juankerr .

Just cos it turns out there was a small volume obscure proto-BD product (no-one had ever heard of outside of Japan) doesn't hide the fact that the type of Blu-ray and HD DVD we are discussing was not then available.

Originally posted by juankerr:
The first BluRay devices were released in Japan in April 2003, long before HD DVD was launched. It was the Sony BDZ-S77 BD-RE recorder which had the ability to record OTA or cable 1080i/720p signals:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/blu-ray/
- Exactly it was a 720p/1080i variant they tried out on a tiny scale for a short while before dropping it to move on to what we know as Blu-ray today.

Originally posted by juankerr:
An offshoot of the BluRay project was the ProDATA format which was designed for corporate data storage. The first ProData devices were introduced mid-2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Disc_for_DATA
- Thanks for that, this is the proof of what I have often said.

HD DVD is a purpose designed video medium, Blu-ray is a purpose designed bulk data storage medium.

Originally posted by juarkerr:
BluRay as a medium for pre-recorded video (BD-ROM) did come out after HD DVD was introduced in 2006.
- Indeed.

This is precisely what I have been saying.

Originally posted by juankerr:
However, as you can see, there were BluRay enabled devices long before then and long before the PS3 was introduced.
- I'm not arguing that a form of Blu-ray (but absolutely not as we now know it) was around before.

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:
Thank You i rest my case
- LMAO.

You got lucky someone knew a little more about the development background, that's all, Mr 'Blu-ray is uncompress data'.

One thing is for sure, you sure as hell knew nothing about it and remainded uttely silent about it, until juankerr mentioned & linked to it.

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:
this guy is nothing more than a PR piece for HD-DVD.
- Wrong.

But interesting that you start the whiney bitchy little snide side comments and can't refute what I've said
(hmmm, sounds like someone else around here).

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:
But if you going to know about HD formats at lease know when they was released.
- Why would I want to know the obscure & arcane roots of BD development.....you sure as hell don't know much about it judging from the, er, 'content' of your posts.

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:
You the same person back in Jan or Feb that didn't even know that the combo HD-DVD format disc was released.
- Oh right so if someone doesn't know of a particular combo disc being available that had come out that is supposed to prove what, huh?

It's a matter of timing (if what you say is true) it's hardly a fundamental of either format.

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:
I remember that because error5 told you & you said they was not released yet?

Dam the posts will only let you go back 6 months.
- Well that's very handy for you isn't it?

526.12.2007 20:36

Originally posted by Hugh:

Blu-ray is a purpose designed bulk data storage medium.
Couldn't you have just said this before? Lol

536.12.2007 21:56
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by sciascia:
Originally posted by Hugh:

Blu-ray is a purpose designed bulk data storage medium.
Couldn't you have just said this before? Lol
- What makes you think I haven't?

I have, several times in the past here.

547.12.2007 21:48

Personally, I'm 100 percent satisfied with the standard DVD format. It will be a long, long, long time before I even consider changing to either HD or Blue Ray. I just have no use (at all) for either of them.

Of course, I do recognize that there are folks who just can't live without the latest and greatest toys available. I don't have a problem with that attitude as long as the people who think that way can afford to spend the money without going one cent into debt. Unfortunately, I have watched people lose their homes because they just could NOT pass up those big TVs and new cars.

Toys, should NEVER put you into debt, and let's face facts, the new Video Formats, including HD TV, are necessary ONLY because the Government and Industry are making them necessary, not because we really have a pressing need for them.

- Mike -

5523.12.2007 17:48

Quote:
Entertainment industry analysts at Screen Media Digest and Adams Media Research aren't buying into claims by Blu-ray supporters that they're on the verge of victory in the format war with HD DVD. In fact they say nothing has changed, and both formats will almost certainly continue to compete for at least a few more years.
To me this is nothing new we have been saying this since the start of the two formats. I wish we could get news reports when things actually make massive change.

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