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BDA tells early adopters: "We needed to create momentum"

Written by Andre Yoskowitz (Google+) @ 19 Jan 2008 18:04 User comments (53)

BDA tells early adopters: "We needed to create momentum" The BDA has explained why early adopters of the format will not be rewarded for supporting the HD format in its earliest stages because the Blu-ray camp needed to "create momentum" in its battle against rival HD DVD.
Frank Simonis, the European chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association, was the one who spoke out about why new standards (such as Profile 1.1) took so long to hit the market.

"We needed to create momentum and get the players on the market",
he said.

"If we had postponed launch to add in the hardware for the latest features, we would not be in the situation we have today."


Most early adopters who do not have the latest "Final Profile" will not be able to take full advantage of the format and its additional bonus features, without purchasing a new Blu-ray player. The new profile will not be available as a firmware update for older players, he added.

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53 user comments

119.1.2008 18:12

Shouldn't been a issue no one really pay attention to extras just give us the movie's with the best transfers.I own two movies that has this crap & have no reason to use any extra stuff & never will.I didn't on DVD & i wont on Blu.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 19 Jan 2008 @ 18:13

219.1.2008 18:12

Heres a thought give people 6-9 months to exchange their old players in for new players at half price, its called customer service... exchanging buggy/bad hardware for new better built stuff....

On a added note do more for the consumer and they will by more than they normally do.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 19 Jan 2008 @ 18:15

319.1.2008 18:44

so sony won the war. now to make up all there lost profit they are telling us if we want the best buy a new player. now we see the light at the end of the tunner when they won.

419.1.2008 18:51

Originally posted by seanacean:
so sony won the war. now to make up all there lost profit they are telling us if we want the best buy a new player. now we see the light at the end of the tunner when they won.
the war is not over yet.

519.1.2008 19:57

I can understand why some people might ge annoyed by this but then again, this news wasn't hidden from those who know how to use a search engine and those who bought early players at the sky-high prices should have had the sense to check that out if they feel duped.
As already said by NexGen76, I don't give a toss about the extras in 2.0 etc either - who wants to view a picture in picture when you're looking for the best quality film transfer there is, sounds like pop-up advertising on a website lol. I certainly don't want to see Hermione Grainger telling us how they applied her make-up and blow-dried her hair while watching harry Potter !
On another note, hardware upgrades are inevitable and in many cases you can't firmware update the old equiplment to get the desired effect.
I never heard of anyone successfully complaining to Intel after they bought a single core processor and demanding a dual core replacement because it came out 6 months after they bought their PC !

619.1.2008 20:05

Originally posted by domie:
I can understand why some people might ge annoyed by this but then again, this news wasn't hidden from those who know how to use a search engine and those who bought early players at the sky-high prices should have had the sense to check that out if they feel duped.
As already said by NexGen76, I don't give a toss about the extras in 2.0 etc either - who wants to view a picture in picture when you're looking for the best quality film transfer there is, sounds like pop-up advertising on a website lol. I certainly don't want to see Hermione Grainger telling us how they applied her make-up and blow-dried her hair while watching harry Potter !
On another note, hardware upgrades are inevitable and in many cases you can't firmware update the old equiplment to get the desired effect.
I never heard of anyone successfully complaining to Intel after they bought a single core processor and demanding a dual core replacement because it came out 6 months after they bought their PC !

Frankly what this is about is non standardized spec you buy soemthign only to have it not fully work a year later, things like this is bad for the industry, BR should have worked on its Java and profiles alil better before spaming out the hardware, the same can be said for HDMI in some respects.

719.1.2008 20:18
atomicxl
Inactive

I wonder if the HD-DVD camp will see any benefit from this.

@NexGen76 and Domie, I think you're in the minority on that one. I look at the number of two disc special editions DVDs that are released, or re-releases that only add bonus content and I have to assume that theres enough people out their that are into special features to warrant the product being created. It'd be interesting to see what sells more on average for the same movie: 2 disc edition with special features or the one disc version with only the movie?

If any regular consumer bought a Blu-Ray player, he's gonna feel very jerked when he eventually pays more for a 2 disc version and finds out the 2nd disc won't work in his player. You can say people are stupid, but these stupid people bought your player and aren't gonna forget how you had no qualms or remorse about screwing him just to gain market share.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 19 Jan 2008 @ 20:24

819.1.2008 20:55

Originally posted by atomicxl:
I wonder if the HD-DVD camp will see any benefit from this.

@NexGen76 and Domie, I think you're in the minority on that one. I look at the number of two disc special editions DVDs that are released, or re-releases that only add bonus content and I have to assume that theres enough people out their that are into special features to warrant the product being created. It'd be interesting to see what sells more on average for the same movie: 2 disc edition with special features or the one disc version with only the movie?

If any regular consumer bought a Blu-Ray player, he's gonna feel very jerked when he eventually pays more for a 2 disc version and finds out the 2nd disc won't work in his player. You can say people are stupid, but these stupid people bought your player and aren't gonna forget how you had no qualms or remorse about screwing him just to gain market share.
Both have issues with spec updates..but good lord....BR just cant do it right....

919.1.2008 23:31

should have bought a PS3. The writing was on the wall.

1019.1.2008 23:59

Is this business speak of saying to the consumer "Screw You Sucker" ?


"The flimsier the product,the higher the price"
Ferengi 82nd rule of aqusition


1120.1.2008 0:09

Originally posted by gleone:
should have bought a PS3. The writing was on the wall.
how is it being updated for the new profiles and specs? really I wont be getting one till they put a 4X BR drive in it..... now that and BWC hardware would be worth 400/500!

1220.1.2008 1:18
vinny13
Inactive

As long as the movie plays at 1080P on my Sharp I could care less about the extras. That's why they're called extras. We don't need them.

1320.1.2008 1:36

Originally posted by vinny13:
As long as the movie plays at 1080P on my Sharp I could care less about the extras. That's why they're called extras. We don't need them.
i just care for the movie itself too or maybe for alternative ends but that's about it and i think that's the way most ppl think ,s top selling what we don't want

1420.1.2008 1:56

Ok, so I don't have a ps3 or a BD player, but I just can't help but wonder (and if anyone knows please feel free to let me know) what does this mean for ps3's? I'm sure newer one's will probably just be updated with the update, but what if you have an older system, will it not take full advantage as well. If so it sux to have bought a ps3 back then, no games and you BD player is now out of date.

1520.1.2008 2:20

hummm sounds VERY Familiar! I remember people buying dvd+ burners with hopes of the dvd- format beign able to be burned in the future with a firmware update! Yes the format war! isnt it lovely! it is frustrating that you cant buy till a next technology is almost out!

1620.1.2008 3:19

These players will no doubt have only been bought by A/V enthusiast's, or idiots with more money than brains who deserve to be ripped off. The AV/tech enthusiast's will have bought these players knowing full well that they were going to be outdated within months of purchasing them, as everything in that area always is. The only regular consumer's that have a BD player would be the ones with a PS3.

I also couldnt care less about the supposed "features" the updated profiles offer, in fact, I really wouldnt care if the disc had only the main movie as long as its in HD. After all, isnt that the purpose of these new discs, HD movies?

Originally posted by Dat1boi:
Ok, so I don't have a ps3 or a BD player, but I just can't help but wonder (and if anyone knows please feel free to let me know) what does this mean for ps3's? I'm sure newer one's will probably just be updated with the update, but what if you have an older system, will it not take full advantage as well. If so it sux to have bought a ps3 back then, no games and you BD player is now out of date.

Except that 1: The PS3 does have games, and 2: The PS3 has already proven that it can be updated to include support for most (if not all) of the latest profile features.

Quote:
how is it being updated for the new profiles and specs? really I wont be getting one till they put a 4X BR drive in it..... now that and BWC hardware would be worth 400/500!

Why bother with a 4x BD drive? 2x is already the equivalent of a 12x DVD drive, faster is always better (well, at least for technology) but is that speed really necessary and/or going to be able to be utilized by the rest of the hardware (this is in the case of PS3, nothing else). Does anyone here know whether it would be possible for the PS3 drive to be upgraded to 4x via firmware update?
As for backwards compatibility, word is that Sony are advertising for someone to work on programing that kind of thing, so it might happen in the near future.

"This is how it works. Whatever you sink, we build back up. Whomever you sue, ten new pirates are recruited. Wherever you go, we are already ahead of you. You are the past and the forgotten, we are the internet and the future."-Brokep

1720.1.2008 4:07

Originally posted by Andrew691:
These players will no doubt have only been bought by A/V enthusiast's, or idiots with more money than brains who deserve to be ripped off. The AV/tech enthusiast's will have bought these players knowing full well that they were going to be outdated within months of purchasing them, as everything in that area always is. The only regular consumer's that have a BD player would be the ones with a PS3.

I also couldnt care less about the supposed "features" the updated profiles offer, in fact, I really wouldnt care if the disc had only the main movie as long as its in HD. After all, isnt that the purpose of these new discs, HD movies?

Originally posted by Dat1boi:
Ok, so I don't have a ps3 or a BD player, but I just can't help but wonder (and if anyone knows please feel free to let me know) what does this mean for ps3's? I'm sure newer one's will probably just be updated with the update, but what if you have an older system, will it not take full advantage as well. If so it sux to have bought a ps3 back then, no games and you BD player is now out of date.

Except that 1: The PS3 does have games, and 2: The PS3 has already proven that it can be updated to include support for most (if not all) of the latest profile features.

Quote:
how is it being updated for the new profiles and specs? really I wont be getting one till they put a 4X BR drive in it..... now that and BWC hardware would be worth 400/500!

Why bother with a 4x BD drive? 2x is already the equivalent of a 12x DVD drive, faster is always better (well, at least for technology) but is that speed really necessary and/or going to be able to be utilized by the rest of the hardware (this is in the case of PS3, nothing else). Does anyone here know whether it would be possible for the PS3 drive to be upgraded to 4x via firmware update?
As for backwards compatibility, word is that Sony are advertising for someone to work on programing that kind of thing, so it might happen in the near future.

====================================================================
Actauly its slower than 12X DVD (DVD 12X is 126Mbits ,BR2X is 72Mbits mind you thats max data rate and its all depnds on the spin speed and other factors andy ou can garrente a normal max speed of 30-40% below the top speed, still its slow enough to worry about the games coming in 2-3+ years,don't have the worry about the 360 it has one foot and arm in the grave >>)....

But speed is still an issue..add the constant move of game tech to be bigger "better" it really dose need a speed boost and the sooner the better with the PS3 gunning for a longer life span, if I had to chose a 60GB unit for 350-400 would be better than a 4X unit with no BWC hardware unless they put more effort into BWC.... still they have room to improve, I wish they would drop the extra POS unit and and lower the 500 to 400 and lock that price for the next 4 years I'd rather buy once and have a solid console than the one way "upgraders" plan MS offers :P


I wish they would get the major revisions dealt with the sooner the better....the better...look at the games in 4ish years double the real size and loading times I think getting in a 4X drive now would be worth the price and finish up the costly revamps.

I can see them revamping HDMI to the flavor of the day every year or so but thats not a biggy.


For me if on a scale of 1 to 10 for the PS3 BD profiles is a 10, drive speed is a 5,BWC is a 3 price is a 2 ,control over the control is a 1.....I guess "new" games is a 4 LOL I'll be buying PS2 games for the next 2-3 years :P


I want the PS3 to be the best console it can be, polishing BWC is a must doing something about drive speed is another while not a issue right now this minute it will come and when they change it it will piss off ALOT of people, best to get it done now.

Everything else on the PS3 is falling into place hardware is well built so far, games are coming ,online is shaping is up prices are coming down, production costs are coming down.

One thing that would gain my complete attention on is full customizable support of keyboard and mouse for all PS3 gaming,I don't care if I ave to by their hardware for it I want this done they can stick saxix in the mouse and charge 80$ for it for all I care there is no reason to have full control customization in the PS3/WII/360/X menu, no subsuties can replace full customizing,if I can get the mouse conpad thing(its half a pad with one of the sticks is replaced by a mouse) for 100$ with full pre game customization or full reconfiguration built into the device I will go with that but half/quater customization..pointless.....

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

---
Check out my crappy creations
http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

1820.1.2008 4:23

Quote:
Actauly its slower than 12X DVD (DVD 12X is 126Mbits ,BR2X is 72Mbits mind you thats max data rate and its all depnds on the spin speed and other factors andy ou can garrente a normal max speed of 30-40% below the top speed, still its slow enough to worry about the games coming in 2-3+ years,don't have the worry about the 360 it has one foot and arm in the grave >>)....
Thats the thing though, 12x requires a insane spin speed. The disc drives make huge amounts of noise, me burning DVD's at 4x is loud enough. And the likelihood of the drive actually reaching that peak speed is near zero, 2x is a alot easier of a speed to reach and maintain. So I would still consider a 2x BD drive faster than 12x DVD.

Supposedly the disc drive in the 360 makes a good 90% of the noise, alot more than the fan. Thats just not right IMO.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 20 Jan 2008 @ 4:24

"This is how it works. Whatever you sink, we build back up. Whomever you sue, ten new pirates are recruited. Wherever you go, we are already ahead of you. You are the past and the forgotten, we are the internet and the future."-Brokep

1920.1.2008 6:26

WOW... that has gotta hurt. Once again companies use the consumer with no intent to reward them once the companies' plans come to fruition. And no I'm not blaming early adopters completely but, you take your risks on new products especially prices and compatibility. I remember I almost bought a $8000 DLP tv just a couple of years ago, now I see DLP ain't worth shit. And just last year I almost bought a $4000 tv. I'm still waiting and it looks promising. Prices are coming down and the features are increasing. Maybe next year I will buy.....
P.S. I guess my first statement you could see two ways, early adopters get left out from new innovations of the same product and late comers see a dramatic decrease in price and increase in features. hmmmm.... vicious circle...

2020.1.2008 6:40

Early adopters also have the disposable income to be early adopters. When an early adopter buys the first model of a player he definitely knows that it's not going to be his last player purchase. Remember the first DVD players were also about $1K and didn't even decode DTS and many had problems with dual layer DVD's.

I know of a couple of people here in these boards who have the first models from Panasonic and Sony which were Profile 1.0 and cost ~$1K. These guys now have their eyes set on the upcoming Profile 2.0 players that were announced at CES 2008 that have all the advanced features such as internal decoding of Dolby True HD and DTS HD-MA, 7.1 analogs, and Silicon Optix Realta processing.

2120.1.2008 9:09

Quote:
Originally posted by seanacean:
so sony won the war. now to make up all there lost profit they are telling us if we want the best buy a new player. now we see the light at the end of the tunner when they won.
the war is not over yet.
But the ending is beginning...

2220.1.2008 12:48
hughjars
Inactive

Naturally the Blu-ray liars continue to lie to people and pretend this is only about 'extras'.

It isn't.

This is nothing to do with movie 'extras'
(and to pretend it is just shows the condescending exploitation of non-techy people.
How could it be, the 'profile 1.0' players were never meant to be able to access those bits anyway.....where's the news or story in that?)

This is all about whether your (expensive) 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' Blu-ray stand-alone can properly play the coming 'profile 2.0' discs at all.

The part of the original interview/article the Blu-ray PR liars always avoid as best as they can is this bit -

In addition, the BD-J interactivity layer, based on Java, has continued to evolve since the introduction of Blu-ray Profile 1.0.

This means that early players may have a buggy implementation and perhaps more importantly, they are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly.


.......and let's not forget the BDA's arrogant sneering closing comment about this, to hell with the influx of new owners attracted by the pre-X-mas cut-price 'profile 1.0' Sony S300 & Samsung BDP 1400 they apparantly "knew what they were getting into".

Still, when they find they have to buy again (when/if a range of 'profile 2.0' stand-alones ever appear) they can always just be so glad that their cash was needed to create 'momentum'.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 20 Jan 2008 @ 13:01

2320.1.2008 14:42

I think it is too late for that. They already have deadlines in place for the current profiles. Right now no new player announced can be less than profile 1.1. I don't know when 2.0 will be the lowest required but it will come with the natural progression of things.

Just look at DVD. For the first 3-4 even 5 years you had players that couldn't decode DTS, play progressively, play DVD +/-R, etc. Now go out there and find a player that doesn't do all that. While the BD specs aren't complete, most CE's seem to be trying to stay ahead of the curve. For those that are behind, demand will determain how fast they improve their players.

Toshiba wasn't all roses and peaches either. A very large chunk of their install base can't even play 1080p, which is a much bigger requirement than online shopping or PiP IMO.

Besides, in 2 years or so, when BD starts to really build up a userbase, we'll be in the same position DVD was around that time and all players will be supporting all of the features that discs are being produced with. And each one of those players will probably sell more than all the current players combined. The early adopter and their first player will be a memory.

2420.1.2008 14:47

This should really be a non-issue if you purchased an extended warranty. New system/features are out? Word!?! OH SNAP, BAM, EXTENDED WARRANTY BEEOTCHES!!!. In and out with Kool-Aid smile on face.

At least that's how I feel after I do an exchange at Best Buy. For some reason it almost feels like money in the bank.

I'm surprise people still haven't taken this up yet and NO it does not need to be broken to do the exchange.

I started out with a cynder block sized PS2 till I finally got it down to the slim and I would have had a PS3 soone had I not let my warranty lapse by a month ;(

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 20 Jan 2008 @ 14:51

2520.1.2008 15:52

At least something is being done to ensure that BD-J issues are kept to a minimun:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/20/blu...y-disc-quality/

Quote:
Barely a month after Microsoft revealed the Xbox 360 HD DVD Emulator in hopes of speeding up development of HDi, we're seeing a new company emerge with bolstering Blu-ray Disc quality as its top priority. Of course, anyone paying attention over the past few weeks would realize that something like this is sorely overdue. Reportedly, BluFocus is already working with a number of studios in order to ensure that BD-J / BD Live functionality is properly implemented and that discs arrive to end-users sans issues. The company (accurately) points out that mastering Blu-ray titles is a much more involved process than mastering a vanilla DVD, and considering just how much interactivity is being mixed in, there's a lot more room for error than in days past. Notably, we're not told exactly which studios BluFocus is currently working with, but here's to hoping we find fewer reasons to plead for replacement discs in the future.

2620.1.2008 18:54

Oh About them changing the drive speeds of bd in the ps3 thats the same thing as there doing now. there going to leave the consumers in the dust if they go from 2x to 4x. also a bd disc going at 4x. hope they have some clear titanium cover i dont know about. Smaller pits mean littler scrathes to smug up your gaming Experiance.

to the topic at hand. Yea they Knew what was going to happen. heck at least they still have a working player. any body remember the phase out When betamax lost the tape battle it was in and out the door.

also to the side, this guy sure does sound confident when telling people there player arnt going to work right in the near future. just remember guys Hd-dvd is not out yet. dont make the same mistake i made with betamax. that left me crying for years.

2720.1.2008 19:26
hughjars
Inactive

You can tell the Blu-ray fanclub have started to rake out the bottom of the barrel on this one when they try and compare the early DVD player's inability to play DTS audio with 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' players not being able to play 'profile 2.0' movie discs.

There's no way DTS audio or +/- R DVD equate to the 200,000 - 250,000 early Blu-ray stand-alone owners getting the shaft on this 'profile' mess.

(and in a market where the overwhelming majority of HD TVs are 720p/1080i screens why on earth shouldn't the HD DVD format meet that actual need and give people the choice?

Those with 1080p screens will see 1080p from a 1080i signal anyways

It's just typical Blu-ray, forcing an expensive unusable 1080p spec on everyone when most cannot make use of it.)

2820.1.2008 20:05

hughjars you and NexGen76 are always going at it why dont you two ever give it up.

2920.1.2008 20:28
hughjars
Inactive

DXR88 forget who's saying what, concentrate on what is said.

Do you really think 200,000 - 250,000 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' player owners getting turned over like this, seriously, is in the same league as the first DVD players not decoding DTS!?

Or whether those first DVD players (which can still play retail DVD movies today) could play +/- R DVD is in the same league as being unable to play the coming 'profile 2.0' movie discs?

Come on.

It's typical Blu-ray BS, a condescending insult to those who have been ripped off to the tune of anything from $300 - $1500.

I can do nothing about the sort of posters who come here to talk up and excuse such outrageous practices - and frankly nor would I if I could.
They are their own worst enemies.
Everyone can see when they try to minimise & soft-soap that kind of nonsense.
I am quite happy to show their ludicrous nonsense up for the lame disinformation & distraction it almost invariably is.

We can all hope thet they have put their money where their mouth is & that they end up being caught in this debacle having wasted a not inconsiderable sum on the Blu-ray 'beta' prototype stages themselves.

.....and of course it's always amusing to point out the obvious hypocrisy.
They are almost always game console fanboys (and not first & foremost movie fans at all) who rush to slam Microsoft's XBox 360 as being rushed to market and having a high 30% rate of failure etc etc.

Now when the BDA themslves admit to rushing Blu-ray to market and face leaving all 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' player owners out in the cold when the 'profile 2.0' discs come
(effectively a 100% failure rate)
they churn out the lies
('it's only about 'extras' - or attempt to divert attention from what is going on - 'DVD & DTS').

It would be funny if it wasn;t real people getting scr3wed over by the bunch of CE corps who have devised this new Blu-ray gravy-train.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 20 Jan 2008 @ 20:52

3020.1.2008 21:37

Its called Corperate Games hughjars. this ones a mere test to lets see how far we can go lying to are fanbase. sony pulled one. that will lose them the most loyalist of all the important ones the a/v fanatics. you see without the a/v fanatics you cant sell if you cant sell you lose.

these gimme pigs treated there a/v fanatics genni pigs like dirt. these people gave your product life and you turn around and shoot'em in the back. its sad cause, i would understand if it was the hd-dvd format winning and sony dissapers for a few days but thats not the case here there winning and its only because of the people that reached deep into there wallets to pull out this 1500 bucks cash

3121.1.2008 1:10

Originally posted by NexGen76:
Just look at DVD. For the first 3-4 even 5 years you had players that couldn't decode DTS, play progressively, play DVD +/-R, etc. Now go out there and find a player that doesn't do all that.

This isn't even close to the same thing. The DVD Forum has always rejected any changes that would cause newer DVDs not to play on older players. DTS was and is an optional feature, and isn't required in newer players either.

To be sure there were occasional problems where a release would have problems on older models of DVD player, but that was a question of improper implementations of the DVD VM, not a change in specs.

Rich Fiscus
@Vurbal on Twitter
AfterDawn Staff Writer

3221.1.2008 3:33

Originally posted by Dat1boi:
Ok, so I don't have a ps3 or a BD player, but I just can't help but wonder (and if anyone knows please feel free to let me know) what does this mean for ps3's? I'm sure newer one's will probably just be updated with the update, but what if you have an older system, will it not take full advantage as well. If so it sux to have bought a ps3 back then, no games and you BD player is now out of date.
For the PS3.

Out of the box the PS3 is a profile 1.1 player.

Firmware 1.90 added support for TrueHD audio and some other audio support, the PS3 has around 40 different audio aupport codecs in it, out of the box TrueHD has to be added.

The PS3 does
stero headphones to 48kHz speakers.
5.1 Surround sound about 15 to 20 codecs.
6.1/7.1 about 10 to 15 codecs.
THX makes up the last few.

TrueHD adds on top of the above.

2.0 makes the PS3 a Profile 2.0 Blu-ray player, this will do the BDJava PiP etc features for Profile 2.0 Blu-Ray titles.

just about all current titles will be profile 1.0 to 1.1 profile Blu-Ray movies so playing them in a Profile 2.0 player won't add anything anyway.

2.1 makes the PS3 a 100% certified DivX player as well.

That pretty much sums it up.

3321.1.2008 3:43

Originally posted by hughjars:
DXR88 forget who's saying what, concentrate on what is said.

Do you really think 200,000 - 250,000 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' player owners getting turned over like this, seriously, is in the same league as the first DVD players not decoding DTS!?

Or whether those first DVD players (which can still play retail DVD movies today) could play +/- R DVD is in the same league as being unable to play the coming 'profile 2.0' movie discs?

You also forget that the first few gens of DVD players wouldn't let you play any burnable DVDs, didn't matter what kind of format.

Then you had to have DVD-R to allow for compatablitly on all DVD players as DVD-R is the movie format and DVD+R is the computer format.

So yes a heap of people would have gotten screwed over with buying the first few gens of DVD players.

not to menition the problems of heat killing DVD players didn't matter what brand it was.

3421.1.2008 5:06

Quote:
Originally posted by hughjars:
...Do you really think 200,000 - 250,000 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' player owners getting turned over like this, seriously, is in the same league as the first DVD players not decoding DTS!?

Or whether those first DVD players (which can still play retail DVD movies today) could play +/- R DVD is in the same league as being unable to play the coming 'profile 2.0' movie discs?

...You also forget that the first few gens of DVD players wouldn't let you play any burnable DVDs, didn't matter what kind of format...

So yes a heap of people would have gotten screwed over with buying the first few gens of DVD players...
That's not the point. The point is those early players could still play retail discs, and can still play new release retail discs. The big question is will the older bd players even play the newer discs at all. I wouldn't put it beyond the bda, not just judging from this statement. Early adopters aren't really representative of the average consumer, meaning sony won't lose a bunch of money even if that group refuses to buy anymore blu-ray stuff.

Originally posted by hughjars:
They...rush to slam Microsoft's XBox 360 as being rushed to market and having a high 30% rate of failure etc etc.

The only problem ms might have because of choosing to offer hd-dvd as an add-on is if games actually start needing the space bd provides, since (from what i've heard) the add-on drive isn't open to developers. if sony wins they'll just offer a bd add-on for 360. on an off-topic note: the thing that makes it obvious they rushed to market with 360, to me, is the fact that the "online console leader" has no built-in wireless and still charges users $50/year to play games online.

3521.1.2008 12:58

A/V early adopters pay for being on the bleeding edge. As HD-DVD owners are paying now for gambling on that format, early Blu-ray adopters pay as well. Rinse and repeat.

3621.1.2008 12:58

A/V early adopters pay for being on the bleeding edge. As HD-DVD owners are paying now for gambling on that format, early Blu-ray adopters pay as well. Rinse and repeat.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 21 Jan 2008 @ 12:58

3721.1.2008 18:05

Same as all these BR/HD DVD threads - off topic comments are being directed at individuals and that needs to stop now. From here on in anyone making such comments will get the hammer.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 21 Jan 2008 @ 18:06

3821.1.2008 20:26

Originally posted by juankerr:
At least something is being done to ensure that BD-J issues are kept to a minimun:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/20/blu...y-disc-quality/

Quote:
BluFocus is already working with a number of studios in order to ensure that BD-J / BD Live functionality is properly implemented and that discs arrive to end-users sans issues. The company (accurately) points out that mastering Blu-ray titles is a much more involved process than mastering a vanilla DVD, and considering just how much interactivity is being mixed in, there's a lot more room for error than in days past. Notably, we're not told exactly which studios BluFocus is currently working with, but here's to hoping we find fewer reasons to plead for replacement discs in the future.


@juankerr:

DVDBack23 picked up the engadgetHD news article:

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/12640.cfm

Do you think BluFocus will be using something similar to Microsoft's 360 HD DVD/HDi Emulator?
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 21 Jan 2008 @ 20:28

3921.1.2008 21:46

See we went in made Nephilim Ban Hammer Crazed Again. Sorry Nephy.


@error5 it sounds like a group of inspecters for the blu-ray format,
like the offical DVD Site.

4021.1.2008 22:00

Originally posted by DXR88:
@error5 it sounds like a group of inspecters for the blu-ray format,
like the offical DVD Site.
It's an extra level of quality control that's focused on disc compatibility across different player brands and BD-J Profiles.

4121.1.2008 22:05

OH MY Bad i thought you meant what was blu-focus. SOrry for the misunder standing

4221.1.2008 22:10

Read the links for DVDBack's article and the engadgetHD article. They explain everything.

4322.1.2008 2:35

Originally posted by error5:

It's an extra level of quality control that's focused on disc compatibility across different player brands and BD-J Profiles.
Exactly right.

What this means is:

Let's say I'm an early adopter and I have a 1st gen profile 1.0 player (like the Panasonic BDP-10A). BluFocus will be working closely with the different studios to make sure that all future releases that have Profile 1.1 and BD Live 2.0 features will still play properly in my 1.0 player.

I know that I won't be able to access the 1.1 and 2.0 extras. However, they will ensure that the movie itself will play without a hitch and that the non-1.1, and non-2.0 extras will also play as expected.

4422.1.2008 7:11
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by juankerr:
they will ensure that the movie itself will play without a hitch and that the non-1.1, and non-2.0 extras will also play as expected.
- I admire your optimism at least.

Sadly that is not what the BDA have been telling people.

This is what they have been saying -

In addition, the BD-J interactivity layer, based on Java, has continued to evolve since the introduction of Blu-ray Profile 1.0.

This means that early players may have a buggy implementation and perhaps more importantly, they are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly.


.....but it's ok with you, right juankerr?

Afterall "you knew what you were getting into", eh?

(BTW, if you don't mind me asking, which stand-alone did you buy & if it all goes t!ts up on you how much are you out?)

4522.1.2008 7:48

hughjars:

That's an old quote from the BDA and obviously predates the BluFocus announcement.

The BluFocus news item is dated January 20, 2008.

This is a new development and a new announcement from the BDA. Of course we expect you to respond this way to any good news from the BluRay side right?

The fact remains that another level of quality control has been added to the disc production process and efforts are underway to ensure compatibility across all player models and all BD-J platforms and implementations.

Like it or not, the early adopters are not being left out in the cold after all.

BTW, I have 2 BluRay players: a profile 1.1 Panasonic DMP-BD30 in my main setup ($450) and a 40GB PS3 profile 1.1 (soon to be profile 2.0) in the den. When Panasonic releases the Profile 2.0 DMP-BD50 I will definitely get one of those and relegate the BD30 to the bedroom.

While you're at it can you contact your friends at Toshiba. Tell them the bitstream problem with the XA2 HD DVD player is still unresolved. The sound from any secondary stream PiP is absent when I use bitstream to my Onkyo receiver. I've sent them several e-mails but there's no reply yet.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Jan 2008 @ 7:42

4622.1.2008 8:45
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by juankerr:
That's an old quote from the BDA and obviously predates the BluFocus announcement.
- It's not even a month old.

The "they knew what they were getting into" interview was dated Jan 8th 2008.

Originally posted by juankerr:
The BluFocus news item is dated January 20, 2008.
- Well what of it?

It's only an announcement that they are going to try and get higher quality, it's not like they have come out and specifically guaranteed anybody anything.

Originally posted by juankerr:
This is a new development and a new announcement from the BDA. Of course we expect you to respond this way to any good news from the BluRay side right?
- No.
What you can expect is that I'll post up the whole story and not just go along with their usual misdirection & PR BS.

Originally posted by juankerr:
The fact remains that another level of quality control has been added to the disc production process and efforts are underway to ensure compatibility across all player models and all BD-J platforms and implementations.
- ......and the fact remains that (from several sources now) we know that 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' players are likely to have serious problems with 'profile 2.0' discs.

Just because they are upping their quality controls does not mean they have found a way to get past the serious problems between the 'profiles'.

Keeping 'profile 2.0' quality at an acceptable level (across whatever range of profile 2.0 players that they eventually end up with) does not in itself mean ensuring 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' players will ever be able to play 'profile 2.0' discs properly.

Originally posted by juankerr:
Like it or not, the early adopters are not being left out in the cold after all.
- That's purely your own invention.

You have nothing concrete on which to base that.

I can point to a series of BDA comments dated Jan 8th 2008 which specifically address this issue and you are trying to use a press release from the 20 Jan 2008 which does not specifically mention this issue at all.

There are plenty of quotes that would indicate the exact opposite is in fact the truth, like it or not.

We'll see - if they ever get around to making a proper range of 'profile 2.0' stuff - if it's to anything like the same kind of repeatedly delayed timetable as 'profile 1.1' was it won't be any time soon tho.

Originally posted by juankerr:
I've sent them several e-mails but there's no reply yet.
- Jibes aside I think you'll find Toshiba have been pretty good at resolving various issues to date.
Patience.

(and don't be pretending Blu-ray does not have them either, eh?)

4722.1.2008 9:01

Quote:
I can point to a series of BDA comments dated Jan 8th 2008 which specifically address this issue and you are trying to use a press release from the 20 Jan 2008 which does not specifically mention this issue at all.

The January 20 BluFocus announcement is DIRECTLY CONNECTED to BD-J profile issues. Read DVDBack23's news item and the engadgetHD news item. BluFocus will directlty address 1.0 and 1.1 profile compatibility issues.

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/12640.cfm

Quote:
Many have hoped for such a group as titles on Blu-ray and its rival HD DVD are very sophisticated systems of interactivity and many make it to retail shelves with flaws that need later patches or even recalls. The new group will test all titles to ensure they operate on all players before release.

The company has an expertise in the Blu-ray authoring language BD-Java and is "able to run the discs through a variety of tests in order to ensure compatibility with the set standards."

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/20/blu...y-disc-quality/

Quote:
BluFocus is already working with a number of studios in order to ensure that BD-J / BD Live functionality is properly implemented and that discs arrive to end-users sans issues. The company (accurately) points out that mastering Blu-ray titles is a much more involved process than mastering a vanilla DVD, and considering just how much interactivity is being mixed in, there's a lot more room for error than in days past.
The entire purpose of BluFocus is to ensure BD-J and BD-Live compatibility and functionality across all players and platforms.

edit: spelling
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 Jan 2008 @ 9:12

4822.1.2008 9:14
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by error5:
The entire purpose of BluFocus is to ensure BD-J and BD-Live compatibility and functionality across all players and platforms.
- These articles & press releases are hardly specific and do not address the points the BDA themselves raised only 2 wks before.

Given what they themselves said only 2 weeks before-hand what is more likely?

Across all platforms, period.

or

Across all 'profile 2.0' platforms (when/if they arrive).

Like I said the BDA have not specifically retracted their own comments about 'profile 1.0' & profile 1.1' Blu-ray players having severe problems with 'profile 2.0' Blu-ray discs.

This new 'body' does not guarantee anything in regard to those 'issues'.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 Jan 2008 @ 9:19

4922.1.2008 9:37

Quote:
BluFocus is already working with a number of studios in order to ensure that BD-J / BD Live functionality is properly implemented and that discs arrive to end-users sans issues.
The article mentions both BD-J (which is profile 1.0 and 1.1) plus BD-Live (which is 2.0). So we prefer to be optimistic that proper implementation and functionality will span all players and profiles.

Quote:
Like I said the BDA have not specifically retracted their own comments about 'profile 1.0' & profile 1.1' Blu-ray players having severe problems with 'profile 2.0' Blu-ray discs.
This announcement is, as I see it, their own way of resolving the situation before it becomes widespread. They anticipate problems and this is their way of being proactive about it. They put a solution in place even before the 2.0 discs are released.

IMO they should be applauded for this effort.

5022.1.2008 10:27
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by juankerr:
we prefer to be optimistic that proper implementation and functionality will span all players and profiles.
- Good for you & good luck with that - you're one of the ones that are going to need it.

Quote:
IMO they should be applauded for this effort.
- Let's see if they can actually manage to resolve the problems before just taking the word of a press release & a vague aspiration, and starting the back-slapping eh?

IMO the BDA showed exactly how they really think of their early customers and any problems they may have with their outrageous
"they knew what they were getting into" comment.

This has been going on for months (and we finally had someone stand up and state that this was not - as the BDA & their shills tried to pretend - 'HD DVD FUD') and is a genuine problem.

Denon first talked about it in August and the BDA mentioned it 2 weeks ago in grave terms.

I hardly think a pretty vague press release like this 'proves' anything or does very much to dispel all the earlier comments.

For those interested in what Denon had to say the link is here -
http://www.listenup.com/content/partner_...adge.aug.07.php

But the key section is this part -
Quote:
But there is a possibility — and this is maybe not so public knowledge — that when these discs come out that fit this new profile, they may not work properly with the Profile 1.0 players.

LU: Really?

JT: It’s a possibility, and that’s why we’re working very hard to make sure that our products will be okay with any previous discs and new discs.

You'll note that the Denon Blu-ray player has been delayed, again.

I doubt it is unconnected.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 Jan 2008 @ 10:32

5122.1.2008 11:01

Originally posted by hughjars:
You'll note that the Denon Blu-ray player has been delayed, again.
According to avsforums members and an engadget member from Ultimate Electronics the Denon 3800 player is delayed a couple of months because they are aiming for BD-Live 2.0 spec.

However, the Denon 2500 BluRay transport is available and several avsforum members say they've been promised by their dealers delivery by the end of the week. They can be special ordered from Best Buy's Magnolia Home Theater section.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 Jan 2008 @ 11:10

5222.1.2008 13:46

Originally posted by juankerr:
When Panasonic releases the Profile 2.0 BDP-50 I will definitely get one of those and relegate the BDP-30 to the bedroom.
If you have the funds I'd encourage you take a close look at the upcoming Marantz or Denon. I was able to see the Silicon Optics Realta in action from the flagship Denon DVD player and it's a sight to behold. It should go very well with your Pioneer Kuro plasma.

Quote:
The sound from any secondary stream PiP is absent when I use bitstream to my Onkyo receiver. I've sent them several e-mails but there's no reply yet.
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a solution for this just yet. I've been keeping a close eye on the XA2 thread at avsforums and the current 2.7 Firmware has no solution for this. The 2.8 version FW has been released in Japan but a translation from one of the avs members confirms that this update does not address the bitstream issue. I'll keep you posted.

Quote:
01-19-08, 08:06 PM #3111 | Link
Princess Aurora
Tech Girl
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3 Quote:

Originally Posted by Laserfan
Google translation, suggests "forced 24p" among others:

1. 1080p/24Hz 1080p/24Hz Video set in the resolution setting "p/24Hz to 1080" when the frame rate "automatic" or "1080 p/24Hz" to be able to choose. 1080p HD-XA2 (HD-XA2 only handle 1080p).
2. AACS HD DVD-R HD Video Overseas markets provided by the AACS-compliant HD DVD-R (HD Video format) to be able to play.
*HD DVD HD DVD-R * HD DVD recorder created our HD DVD-R will not play.
AACS Advances Access Content System) AACS: next-generation copyright protection technology (Advances Access Content System)
3. Code language has been changed. ID HE YI JY (Indonesian: ID, Hebrew: HE, Yiddish: YI, Javanese: JY)
4. 3. To improve the capacity for regeneration.

It says

1. You can now select 1080p/24 Hz. 1080p/24 is not the only 1080p mode. You can select either 24 or Auto. In other words, you can force it not to do 3:2 pulldown or set it to auto detect whether to do it or not. It seems that you should select 1080p/24 only if you've been having trouble getting it to use that mode with a compatible display.

You can see a picture of what the new menu will look like:
http:// www3. toshiba.co.jp/hdd-dvd/support/info/mdl/pdf/xa2xf2v2.8note.pdf

You'll have to C/P that in there and remove the spaces.

2. As above.
3. As above.
4. Playback has been improved.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthrea...am+PiP&page=104

5316.2.2008 23:58

Blu-ray better come up with some perk to keep their consumers happy because the initial supporter should at least get some sort of reward maybe a free movie of their choice.

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