AfterDawn: Tech news

Universal: HD DVD is here to stay

Written by Andre Yoskowitz (Google+) @ 23 Jan 2008 16:38 User comments (106)

Universal: HD DVD is here to stay In an interview with BetaNews, Universal Studios executive vice president and co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group Ken Graffeo has said that despite rampant rumors the struggling format is here to stay. He did however leave the door open for putting an end to the format war if Blu-ray is willing to make an agreement.
When asked by the interviewer how Universal felt about Warner's move to Blu-ray exclusivity, Graffeo had this to say: "Well, we heard about the whole move when everyone else did -- when a lot of us were on planes flying to CES in Las Vegas. To be very honest with you, we have not addressed that yet -- Warner is still releasing HD DVD titles up until May. Warner has always been in two formats, and prior to Paramount's switch, they had been in two formats, so now that Warner is exclusive... we just haven't addressed it yet.

Continuing with the trend of CES and Warner, Graffeo was asked to use hindsight and report if canceling HD DVD's press conference at CES was the right move. "It's very easy to look back and say "I could have" because you always know the result. But at the time... imagine the orchestration of a press event with the presenters, the scripts, the entire presentation, videos that were produced -- everything. The crew was already setting up and we were on a plane on Friday, so not being able to get back to everyone to say "how do we make a change for Sunday" was very difficult. And what are the answers? We had no idea because we were reading and hearing about Warner's move the same time everyone else was," he responded.

The interview then naturally moved towards whether Universal and Paramount would be leaving HD DVD for Blu-ray which Graffeo strongly denied. "This is business as usual for us and there are no plans to make any changes. We just made an announcement of our new HD DVD titles yesterday, with American Gangster. We also have a lot of other things planned. It's business as usual," he repeated.

There were a few more interesting notes from the interview as well.

When asked about attach rates for set top players as compared to Sony's PlayStation 3, Graffeo's answer was quick. "If you look at the attach rate of how many movies are bought for dedicated HD DVD players versus how many movies were sold for the PS3 and the Blu-ray set-top players combined, it's a 4 to 1 gap. Which says that people who own game machines are not buying at the same rate as someone who owns a set-top...If you go to a store and buy an HDTV and then you want to get your movies to look better, you go to the DVD section -- you don't go to the game section."

Finally when asked whether there was a possibility that HD DVD and Blu-ray could unify the standards at some point to end the war, Graffeo left the door open but noted that talks had broken down in the past. "Well, I'm never going to say it never can be done. I think everyone would like to see things work out, and I don't think anyone has any ill intention in this. It was a year and a half ago when we tried to put things together and it was unfortunate when it fell apart before. I think anything is possible, and again it comes back to the consumer who has the final voice."

HD DVD is here to stay and the consumer will have to choose eventually where there loyalties stand.

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106 user comments

123.1.2008 16:43
red2tango
Inactive

laser discs were here to stay.did they?

223.1.2008 16:45
goodswipe
Inactive

The guys co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group, of course he would say that.

323.1.2008 17:21
oappi
Inactive

@2
Agreed. if he had said hd-dvd would loose it would have been like hd-dvd camp saying "We surrender!". Mostlikely it is going to happen at some point. They are still thinking if there is a way out. Like try to get one blu-ray studio to their side.

423.1.2008 17:37

They need to dump the remaider of their stock.

523.1.2008 17:41

Don't ask if HD-DVD will survive. We already know the answer to that question. The question is, How does Ken Graffeo still have a job?

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Jan 2008 @ 17:41

623.1.2008 17:43
fritz_l
Inactive

According to Internet Movie Database these studios have the distribution rights to the following number of movies in their catalogs:

Universal - 5331
Paramount - 5753
Dreamworks - 95
Weinstein - 183

Total 11362 films

20th Century Fox - 755
Sony Pictures - 419
Disney Buena Vista - 727
MGM - 3639
Columbia/Tri Star - 4323
Warner Brothers - 4623

Total 14486 Films

Arguably not all of these movies are availble for either format. But it does indicate that the potential content availability is roughly equal AFTER Warner Brothers decision to go BD exclusive. HD DVD had potentially more available content prior WB's move.
So it looks like there will be content available for HD DVD for some time.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Jan 2008 @ 17:47

723.1.2008 17:44

^ agree with both. He's answers was fixed, he couldent have said anything different.

823.1.2008 17:52
goodswipe
Inactive

Paramount/Universal needs to release the Indian Jones series and Scarface, I think that would help the numbers a bit. HD DVD hasn't had any good releases in the last month or so.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Jan 2008 @ 17:54

923.1.2008 17:58

Quote:
When asked by the interviewer how Universal felt about Warner's move to Blu-ray exclusivity, Graffeo had this to say: "Well, we heard about the whole move when everyone else did -- when a lot of us were on planes flying to CES in Las Vegas. To be very honest with you, we have not addressed that yet -- Warner is still releasing HD DVD titles up until May. Warner has always been in two formats, and prior to Paramount's switch, they had been in two formats, so now that Warner is exclusive... we just haven't addressed it yet.
So Universal haven't address the Impact that Warner have created in the HD market Bull.So what have you guys been talking about? Why was the press conference cancel then so i guess you guys are talking about future Universal HD titles your going to release what a tool this guy is.


Quote:
Finally when asked whether there was a possibility that HD DVD and Blu-ray could unify the standards at some point to end the war, Graffeo left the door open but noted that talks had broken down in the past. "Well, I'm never going to say it never can be done. I think everyone would like to see things work out, and I don't think anyone has any ill intention in this. It was a year and a half ago when we tried to put things together and it was unfortunate when it fell apart before. I think anything is possible

So he has admitted that Universal was in talks with Blu-Ray.I see his tone has dial down some since the Warner move & i can easily see them going Neutral this year for sure.



Quote:
The interview then naturally moved towards whether Universal and Paramount would be leaving HD DVD for Blu-ray which Graffeo strongly denied. "This is business as usual for us and there are no plans to make any changes. We just made an announcement of our new HD DVD titles yesterday, with American Gangster. We also have a lot of other things planned. It's business as usual," he repeated.

Lmao that title was announced with a date back in Dec with the BOX art reveal a week later.This guys is in denial really bad.This was the same person that over looked Blu-Ray when Paramount became exclsive to HD-DVD & said clearly that HD-DVD was looking forward to taking on SD-DVD now.What comes around goes around Mr.Graffeo.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Jan 2008 @ 18:12

1023.1.2008 17:59
Ludikhris
Inactive

Fritz: What you are not taking into account is the fact that most studies already show users not rebuying their media the way they did with DVD. Most people are saying "If I have it on DVD I am not buying it on HD" So it is going to be awhile before either HD format takes over.

That said we can expect only "New" movies from here out. Your figures go back to the 20s no doubt where Universal has been around. For that reason the BR camp now has a bigger advantage. Sony for example, has only been around for a few years putting out films and is still a big player today. Though they have 400 films now they will be releasing more than 400 over the next century.

You figures would make more clout if they planned on releasing every film they owned rights to at once, and people were interested in rebuying them all in HD. The demand just isn't there yet and they know it. To tell you the truth I haven't seen one non-brand new HD film on the top 10 best selling list any week. Maybe towards the beginning when it was all you could get.

It's actually two developed studios releasing their new films, vs the other six releasing their new films.

1123.1.2008 18:10

What he said amounts to "four legs good, two legs bad."

1223.1.2008 19:06
vinny13
Inactive

They'll have to change sooner or later this year...

You can't build a home on a slope that only goes down...

1323.1.2008 19:11
varnull
Inactive

Quote:
You can't build a home on a slope that only goes down...
The only kind they build in California I'm told.

1423.1.2008 19:14
vinny13
Inactive

Ya, which is pretty damn stupid after so many homes have and will probably be destroyed by mud slides if they ever get flooded with rain again...

They have no where to go but down :P

1523.1.2008 19:48

when I saw that Firefly was coming out on BR I was sold. I really dont care about the war, i just want my movies in HD.

1623.1.2008 19:58
fritz_l
Inactive

Ludikris: No I am not overlooking that people are not repurchasing their DVD collections. I am merely looking at potential catalog availability, the numbers in that regard go both ways. It is true, most people are in fact not replacing their DVD collections, although the studios are hoping that there will be a push to do that. That affects Blu ray and HD DVD equally. But the Blu ray camp seems to lay claim to having 80% of the studios behing them and by virtue of that fact 80% of the available or potentially available content. Clearly that is not the case.

Actually the numbers are very recent and if they went back to the 20's as you say then that would apply to all of the Blu ray backing studios as well. I do not see how that gives Blu ray any particular advantage at all. Are you saying that Sony will be the only studio releasing films in the next century? By the way Sony has been around for awhile (formerly Columbia pictures)

The figures are not mine, they are merely information that is freely available on the web, they are simply facts that speak for themselves. You do make a good point in that the demand is not there yet for HD. That again applies equally to Blu ray as well as HD DVD.

As far as the HD DVD backing studios not having any films on the top 10 best selling list, that is simply not true, again that is information you can go to any number of webesites to confirm. However, if that were the case then it makes no difference if Universal or Paramount ever go Blu ray, because as you indicate they have nothing worth watching.

As I said originally it looks like there will be content available for HD DVD for some time.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Jan 2008 @ 20:55

1723.1.2008 20:00

Originally posted by goodswipe:
Paramount/Universal needs to release the Indian Jones series and Scarface, I think that would help the numbers a bit. HD DVD hasn't had any good releases in the last month or so.
I agree with goodswipe. The reason I haven't bought many HDDVD's is because there aren't any good releases coming out. Especially, when I would have to shell out $30 each.
Let's all face the real truth. If EVERY movie company released their movies in BOTH formats, HD DVD would have won a long time ago. They're cheaper (players), region free, and non DRM crippled. Since Sony does both equipment and movies they naturally made theirs proprietary (like they always find a way to do), and that's what got us in this mess. Blu-Ray is not neccessarily a bad format, but I think it's caused alot of headache for everyone.

1823.1.2008 20:21
hughjars
Inactive

Typical.

After claiming for a month that Universal were out of contract to HD DVD & that Paramount had an escape clause if Warner left here we are.

Neither Universal nor Paramount have budged an inch......in fact with their support recently (by trimming HD DVD movie prices) they are actively & properly supporting HD DVD.

So what do the Blu-ray fanclub try to pretend next?

Nothing but return the same old 'it's going to happen soon' lying BS.

It doesn't matter that they have come out and given specific (& not vague) answers.
It doesn't matter that they are still HD DVD exclusive.
No.
The Blu-ray fanclub are just going to keep on lying that any minute now Paramount & Universal are going Blu.

Totally predictable & as laughable as it always was.

(you guys ought to be more concerned that Warner just moved their timetable for going Blu to June instead of May.

If HD DVD's really so dead and out of it all why did they bother to do that, huh?
Beware of post-dated cheques.)

1923.1.2008 20:45

Originally posted by hughjars:

The Blu-ray fanclub are just going to keep on lying that any minute now Paramount & Universal are going Blu.

Totally predictable & as laughable as it always was.


Just as laughable as last month when you said that Warner will never go Blu-Ray exclusive no matter how much the Sony fanboys want them to? I think you were surprised when Warner made their move, and are probably in for another big surprise by Paramount & Universal in the future.

2023.1.2008 21:25

there are large companys that are making some money ,but there are some small companys making a lot of money .lower over head , cheaper prices plus a good product, =more money on less sales.

2123.1.2008 21:31

Originally posted by hughjars:
Neither Universal nor Paramount have budged an inch......in fact with their support recently (by trimming HD DVD movie prices) they are actively & properly supporting HD DVD.
Your right they haven't budged but they have dodge the question if there going to back HD-DVD exclsive anymore in the future which i see them going neutral this year.If you read the article Universal ready to talk if the numbers are agreeable.The price cuts are to clear out all remaining stock.I would tell you the same thing if i was trying to clear out stocks of player & movies thats not outselling Blu-Ray they are trying to recover from any losses they going to have in the future.So any announcement from them would be expected this summer or into next holiday season.



Originally posted by hughjars:
(you guys ought to be more concerned that Warner just moved their timetable for going Blu to June instead of May.
The date has always been June 1 that hasn't changed but if i was a HD-DVD owner i would be concern that Warner has delayed all New HD-DVD releases for three weeks or more plus they just pushed back there catalog titles also.

Taking the next step in its transition to Blu-ray exclusivity, Warner has extended its three-week delay on HD DVD releases to include catalog titles.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/W...log_Titles/1386

2223.1.2008 22:04
atomicxl
Inactive

Thumbs up to this!!!! Maybe the rape prices for Blu-ray players will drop if Universal sticks to their guns and stays HD-DVD. Blu-Ray will win, but right now their Warner and Paramount victory has resulted in them burning the hell out of early adopters and trying to convince everyone to just bend over and take it.

Blu-Ray < $200 is all i'm waiting for. And not some crap player that can't even play any of the benefits of the format.

2323.1.2008 23:00
ken9771
Inactive

For me I could care less about the formats when used for video;
I've given up running after the latest step up in video quality.
See enough movies, been there, done that, on to better things,
even got rid of all TV's in house, couldn't be happier.

What I'm looking for is which format has the best data storage amount
and the best protection from scratching, fingerprints, and dust.
In this area Blu-ray kicks-ass, and HD DVD is just another slightly
larger capacity DVDr disc that scratches if you look at it wrong.

Found this website that explains the protective coating on the Blu-ray
media. Here is a small quote as well.

So while you all are still forever chaseing after whatever newer video format that comes next, I hope be be using cheap blu-ray writable media to store all my digital pics taken while I'm out having fun seeing the world instead of watching the latest weekly movie release!


http://www.durabis.com/en/index.htm

"Even after 300 passes by a steel wool pad, a Blu-ray Disc (BD-RE135N) with DURABIS hard coating shows virtually no increase in jitter, attesting to its superior ability to resist scratching.

DURABIS technology: The solution for higher performance discs"

2423.1.2008 23:10

Originally posted by hughjars:
you guys ought to be more concerned that Warner just moved their timetable for going Blu to June instead of May.

please don't twist info and spread fud. you n i know the reason why the movies will still be available in June. it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the idea of Warner CONTINUING or reconsidering their SUPPORT for HD-DVD.

there is a 3 week delay for HD-DVD titles released by Warner. in other words movies will simultaneously release on DVD and Blu-ray while HD-DVD owners must wait 3 weeks before the movie becomes available. if a movie releases in the 2nd week of may on Blu then yes its probably that the movie will release in JUNE for HD-DVD.

i would not expect to see a warner movie released on Blu-ray in June to then also release in June on HD-DVD (some 3 weeks later).

Quote:
The 2 disc DVD and Blu-ray release will arrive on March 18th. The HD DVD will follow on April 8th.

^^that quote is for I am Legend

the movie Twister got bumped back from a May 6th HD-DVD release date to a May 27th release date. considering that strategic move on Warner's part, i think its clear where their alliance lies.

CES announcement, what was that going to be again?
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Jan 2008 @ 23:18

2523.1.2008 23:13
vinny13
Inactive

I don't like how he never gives the full story and tries to spin things his way... You just make things look worse then they are by doing that...

2624.1.2008 0:00

Its funny..... I dont see how anyone can claim to be the "Winner" or even claim they are ahead. At this point I own players for both formats. As far as Im concerned there isnt much difference. As far as blu-ray being great for storage, I can think of a few portable usb powered hard drives that hold way more than a blu-ray disc and by the time u buy the burner and the media for it I dont see the point. Give it six months and toshiba is supposed to be working on a hd-dvd disc that holds more than a blu-ray disc. I dont know where everyone is looking but if you stop and think about it this "War" is actually good for consumers as it keeps prices competitive and keeps technology moving forward. I also work for a big box retailer as an installer, and from what I see the quality difference is dependent on the tv not the format. When one format finally figures out how to cut load times, thats when I will believe they are making great progress. It seems like by the time the movie loads I dont even remember what Im watching anymore. Oh well just my 2 cents.

2724.1.2008 0:42

i think hd dvd should have had a major price difference in the media not just players & they could have won! but just like vhs vs betamax the porn industry decides

2824.1.2008 2:04
Ludikhris
Inactive

Well.... the whole thing doesn't bother me at this point. I know that 80% of the "new" movies are going to be BluRay now. That being said, my dollars are best spent there. Paramount and Universal can do whatever they want, I'll just not be buying their movies in a HD format if I want them. It's that simple. One wonders how long this will go on.

Anyone that actually buys in to the "we're not going anywhere" speech probably still has hopes for Betamax. <sarcasm> You never know, betamax could make a come back and just take everything down </sarcasm> That statement right now makes as much sense as some of the HDDVD diehard comments I hear.

I think it would be fun to just collect all the HDDVD comments into one big post. Then in six months I could just repost them all for everyone to look back on and chuckle. I am not bringing any one person out to flame, I'm just wondering what it will take for them to finally concede.

My guess is a lot of these supporters will not admit defeat even when HDDVD throws in the towel. I can see the comments now "They are just pretending to stop selling products, they are actually selling only on Ebay where you can't see the stats and are selling 2000% more than BR" or "I bet this is a marketing ploy to get everyone to buy stuff so they can announce that all the studios are going HDDVD exclusive"

It's 4th quarter guys, BR is winning 85 to 15 and the 2 minute warning just went off. I'd say change your bet if you can because the chances of HDDVD winning at this point are as strong as Green Bay winning the super bowl, and yes, I realize they were already eliminated.

2924.1.2008 2:39

Some good news at last for HD-DVD.

3024.1.2008 8:45
fritz_l
Inactive

It highly unlikely that all of the new movies by the studios that back Bluray will really be worth buying in any format much less exclusively in Blu ray.

Further the studios cannot support the Blu ray or HD DVD technology on just "new" movies alone. If people are not buying some of the older films that they want to update in HD format then neither Blu ray or HD DVD will survive very long. No one will replace entire collection but the studios are gambling, hoping that consumers will replace some.

There seems to be a misguided belief that Blu ray is somehow a superior technology. They are really not that different in the final analysis. If they were that different then there never would have been discussion between the two camps about merging the formats to begin with. The disagreements between the two camps were not over technology but over royalties and licensing rights.

It would be better for all if the two camps could come back to the table and merge the formats. But that is unlikely as this point as this would leave both sides with Electronic bricks. And for those that think the Blu ray camp wouldn't agree to that, the early Blu ray stand alone adopters are already holding on to electronic bricks and the Blu ray manufacturers are not even bashful about it. They use the excuse that they needed to create momentum.

This debate will go on for awhile longer ...

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 24 Jan 2008 @ 8:48

3124.1.2008 9:38

HD DVD Promotional Group Ken Graffeo says "HD-DVD is here to stay"...

Riiight, a bit like Adolf Hitler saying "Nazism is here to stay!"

Sure it's here to stay for about a few more months before everyone who has a HD-DVD player is going to be feeling a bit like a kid with a Dreamcast.
The only format HERE TO STAY indefinitely is Blu-Ray, HD-DVD is "Just visiting", if you will.



3224.1.2008 11:52
ken9771
Inactive

Blu-ray is here to stay because it is the superior technology.
Being a retired electronic tech I look at the differences not as
"movie watchers" like most of you all, but logically from a tech
viewpoint. There is a lot of info on the net explaining the differences between the two formats, if some of you would take the time to research each format the "only conclusion" you could reach is, eventually Blu-ray wins; there is no doubt about that!

HD DVD was developed with a lower storage capacity so as to produce the discs on exising DVD media manufacturing equipment.
Blu-ray takes advantage of a much higher storage capacity but requires new media manufacturing equipment. Eventually the old
equipment used to produce HD DVD's will need replaced and the new equipment will cost more than the equipment producing Blu-ray media.
Fact is, it will eventually cost more to produce the HD DVD media
vrs and ever increasing production quanity of Blu-ray.

Somebody above said "Give it six months and toshiba is supposed to be working on a hd-dvd disc that holds more than a blu-ray disc "

Simple fact based on the physical expression of the formats,
Blu-ray will always have double or more capacity.
For every improvement leading to higher capacities for HD DVD's
when the same newer materials are used for Blu-ray the gap will always
remain the same, that is because of the way they are made,
the basic difference in physical constuction.
Additionally Blu-ray can have more data layers than HD DVD's and therefore even more capacity, therfore an even greater capacity gap.

At present Blu-ray is the only one to use the protective coating
that I provided a link to above but it looks like no one noticed it as no comments were made pertaining to it.

http://www.durabis.com/en/index.htm

Quote from tech page:

"Even after 300 passes by a steel wool pad, a Blu-ray Disc (BD-RE135N) with DURABIS hard coating shows virtually no increase in jitter, attesting to its superior ability to resist scratching.

DURABIS technology: The solution for higher performance discs"


This DURABIS coating could be applied to the HD DVD media also
however the basic physical construction differences
between the two will still remain, Blu-ray always the best.

You people mention copying your movies as to have additional
copy because the media is damaged so easy.
With the coating applied, either format no longer suffers this fate.
I think basically the real reason is so that movies can be
copied instead of purchased, "steal a copy", be honest,, that's it.

Curently either format provides a good amount of storage space for
titles being produced with the current video formats.
We all know that eventually there never is enough storage space
for more and more uses that are thought up.
Blu-ray provides more space for even more "behind the scenes",
"how it was made", etc, etc.


Say what you want, but eventually the market process
will eliminate the inferior format and Blu-ray will
remain until the next big step-up in technology comes along,
whatever that may be.

3324.1.2008 11:56
goodswipe
Inactive

Hmmm, tell us something we don't know ken, lol.

3424.1.2008 12:06
saltynuts
Inactive

Originally posted by hade:
Originally posted by hughjars:
you guys ought to be more concerned that Warner just moved their timetable for going Blu to June instead of May.

please don't twist info and spread fud. you n i know the reason why the movies will still be available in June. it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the idea of Warner CONTINUING or reconsidering their SUPPORT for HD-DVD.

there is a 3 week delay for HD-DVD titles released by Warner. in other words movies will simultaneously release on DVD and Blu-ray while HD-DVD owners must wait 3 weeks before the movie becomes available. if a movie releases in the 2nd week of may on Blu then yes its probably that the movie will release in JUNE for HD-DVD.

i would not expect to see a warner movie released on Blu-ray in June to then also release in June on HD-DVD (some 3 weeks later).

Quote:
The 2 disc DVD and Blu-ray release will arrive on March 18th. The HD DVD will follow on April 8th.

^^that quote is for I am Legend

the movie Twister got bumped back from a May 6th HD-DVD release date to a May 27th release date. considering that strategic move on Warner's part, i think its clear where their alliance lies.

CES announcement, what was that going to be again?















when you say n what do you mean i hope its not what i think it is?

3524.1.2008 12:08

How about this. Paramounts pushing there movies through Amazon on Blu-ray. Heres the link and tell me this is bogus.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Coming-America-B...01031495&sr=1-1

You can deny it one day and produce for the other side the next. I love big business.

3624.1.2008 12:13
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by Ludikhris:
I know that 80% of the "new" movies are going to be BluRay now.
- This is precisely the sort of inaccurate nonsense that is characterises what is so dishonest about this 'debate'.

The potential catalogue of Blu-ray is not 80% of (Hollywood) movies.

In fact thanks to HD DVD having the exclusive support of the 2nd & 3rd largest Hollywood studios (and over 60 studios worldwide) the potential HD DVD catalogue is over 40% of all possible Hollywood movies.

Anyone who seriously claims that it's all over in a fledgling market that hasn't even seen the larger element of it reach 1% of the total market yet is deluded.

Blu-ray have sold (in almost 2 years) 6million movie discs, according to the BDA.
Over 750 movie discs were sold last year alone.

Originally posted by spydah:
How about this. Paramounts pushing there movies through Amazon on Blu-ray. Heres the link and tell me this is bogus.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Coming-America-B...01031495&sr=1-1

It's bogus.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/23/ama...ed-erroneously/
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 24 Jan 2008 @ 12:15

3724.1.2008 12:18

Why would amazon place bogus Blu-ray movies on it for sale. You enjoy twisting anything you see on these forums. Face the facts HD-DVD isnt doing anything to help their selves no matter whatever you try throw your spin on.

3824.1.2008 12:38
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by spydah:
Why would amazon place bogus Blu-ray movies on it for sale.
- I have no idea how this happened spydah but the fact remains that your 'Paramount going Blu' story is wrong, false, not happening.

.....and so is that BS about Blu-ray having 80% of the possible Hollywood catalogue.

No matter how much you wish it were otherwise.

Originally posted by spydah:
You enjoy twisting anything you see on these forums.
- I gave you the link that proves that your 'Amazon show Paramount's going Blu any second now' fantasy is simply wrong.

What's to twist?

Originally posted by spydah:
Face the facts HD-DVD isnt doing anything to help their selves no matter whatever you try throw your spin on.
- I haven't spun a thing.

I have just stated the facts.

You're just another one here trying to talk-up your preferred format.

You're doing it mainly on the basis of Blu-ray's 6 million movie disc sales in almost 2 years in a market that sees annual sales of 750 million + (not even 1% of the market), which is ridiculous.

3924.1.2008 12:49

HD DVD will win. HD better overall and Bluray got nothing.

Universal and Paramount with HD. Warner will change and take Fox and Disney to HD in 1 months. So HDDDVD got more movies and more players.

hujars is right my man!

4024.1.2008 12:50

I just find it really funny that HD DVD is using the attach rate to justify that HD DVD players are doing better compared to Blu ray and the Playstation 3. "Playstation 3 AND Blu ray players." I don't know what kind of retarded logic the HD DVD group is coming up with. The fact is that Blu ray discs is selling more than HD DVDs and attach rate means nothing. Let me simplify for those people who don't understand (HD DVD). The 4:1 ratio. There are 100 HD DVD player and there are 4 discs for each. Then 100000 Blu ray and PS3 players people buy 1 disc each. when you compare the number of discs sold to the number of players available then you get your 4:1 ratio. But in to total, the number of discs for HD DVD sold is 400 while Blu ray discs sold is 100000. which means that Blu ray sold more discs. The point is that the attach rates are a retarded justification because it is just a ratio of the number of discs sold over the number of players available. The fact is that even if you dont want to consider the PS3 as a Set top player, the fact is that people still buy Blu ray movies for the PS3. It doesn't really matter if HD DVD has more (if they really do) Set top players than Blu ray. The fact remains that there are more Blu ray players out there which means that there are more Blu ray discs sold and the attach rates don't really mean anything. Its just an excuse for the HD DVD camp as a delay tactic, trying to still say HD DVD is still a major player in the Hi Def war. And by cutting the price of HD DVD players by up to 50% just shows that they are desperate to get more players out there. The simple fact is that the consumer follows what happens in the market. Warner is going to Blu ray exclusivity and the consumers know that so to them HD DVD is dead. The only people saying that HD DVD is still very much alive in the format war are the people who have the most to loose or have already invested too much into the project to back out now. You can't expect people to buy a product that they know will be obsolete in a few months. The HD DVD group should just cut their loses now because the way i see it is that they would lose more money as they stay in the format wars.

4124.1.2008 13:11

As i have posted before i dont care about the format war as you do. You spin more time trying to trounce every article and user on this site that isnt HD-DVD related. What i posted is what i see on a few different sites one being that Amazon site. This is another site with Paramount Blu-ray movies posted. Which is a forum site i know not a major player in the news but yet another place showing this. Honestly i dont care if Paramount goes Blu or not you do. I seen this and I posted what i seen. But just like before when YOU (hughjars) posted that Warner was signed and delivered on the HD-DVD side and they was not. You focus more and more on trying to convince us that Universal and Paramount are going to make a come back lol. Thats all i got to say. I will continue letting have your never ending battle with your self about this war. Remember thats your battle against your self with your preferred format.

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?studioid=6

4224.1.2008 13:13

flipside1 have said well agree 100%, i'll just add to all MS/HD-DVD funs that by looking at the facts even microsoft have no faith anymore to HD-DVD.
If MS wanted really to back up HD-DVD, would have made massive hd-dvd game releases.
Dont you find it a little bit strange that even tho there are so many external HD-DVD drives for 360, MS havent released any games.
Thats my point of view and about amazone... well if it was bogus it would be fixed by now dont you think?

4324.1.2008 14:13

If HD DVD is so confident in their staying power why dont they release number of discs sold instead of the attach rate which are pretty pointless right now. or maybe instead of separating the ps3 from stand alone blu ray players they should just combine stand alone HD DVD players and Xbox 360 HD DVD players. wait those reasons might go against them right.lol. thats the reason they arent releasing and comparing the important and similar values. They lost those fronts and are trying to win the format wars on pure BS. I shouldn't say pure BS cause that attach rate thing could be true. I'll just say they are trying to win by giving consumers the information that they don't really give a crap about. yay! HD DVD is winning on attach rate!(but so far we only sold 4 HD DVDs for each of our 100 players while Blu ray only sold 1 disc for each of their 100000 players). for those of you who might not get it, its called sarcasm alright, and i definitely don't how much discs and players each camp sold, im just going with their attach rate ratio.

4424.1.2008 14:15

Originally posted by ripxrush:
i think hd dvd should have had a major price difference in the media not just players & they could have won! but just like vhs vs betamax the porn industry decides
YOUR CRAZY

4524.1.2008 14:19

Originally posted by SDF_GR:
flipside1 have said well agree 100%, i'll just add to all MS/HD-DVD funs that by looking at the facts even microsoft have no faith anymore to HD-DVD.
If MS wanted really to back up HD-DVD, would have made massive hd-dvd game releases.
Dont you find it a little bit strange that even tho there are so many external HD-DVD drives for 360, MS havent released any games.
Thats my point of view and about amazone... well if it was bogus it would be fixed by now dont you think?
wHAT KIND OF DISC DOES 360 use a regular dvd if so thats some next gen system woooohoooo.

4624.1.2008 14:58

@SDF_GR

MS have stated that the HD DVD drive is exclusively for HD movies and not games. So to see and/or expect games on it is unlikely. Although, I'm certain that 360 owners would receive (and welcome) such with open arms.

4724.1.2008 15:21
goodswipe
Inactive

Anyone taken a look at the price for these porn movies in HD? I took a look yesterday to see what was the preferred format. I didn't jot down all the numbers but, looked as if they preferred HD DVD. Also, I DEFINITELY don't see the formats taking off with very much success in the porn industry due to the fact that the media cost 50 dollars!

4824.1.2008 15:41
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by spydah:
I seen this and I posted what i seen.
- Source - http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?studioid=6


LMAO.

Blu-ray.com. Very funny.

Good one, genuine laugh out loud moment there, thanks.

Originally posted by spydah:
But just like before when YOU (hughjars) posted that Warner was signed and delivered on the HD-DVD side and they was not.
- Er no, it's nothing like the same.

I knew (from speaking to several people) that WB were set to go HD DVD at CES 2008.

That's why I was so confident.

That was what they had decided.

Sadly right at the last moment there was a change of decision by their Blu-ray supporting CEO & a few members of their board (probably acting under pressure from their parent company, Time Warner - who are believed to be the reason why WB went dual in the 1st place).

The Ken Graffeo interview backs up my version of events.
It was not a guess (unlike the others who claim to have 'known' WB were going Blu)

That's nothing like the same as a proven error (those movies have not been rereleased on Blu-ray by Paramount - tho they were available before when Paramount was dual format) that is known now to be false.

Nor is it anything like the same as pretending that Blu-ray has (or soon will have when - if - Warner walk) 80% of Hollywood's entire potentially available catalogue.

Originally posted by spydah:
You focus more and more on trying to convince us that Universal and Paramount are going to make a come back
- I don't have to "concentrate" on anything other than what Universal have actually said and done.

Univerals & Paramount have stayed HD DVD exclusive despite a month+ of Blu-ray claims they are going Blu any second.

Originally posted by spydah:
I will continue letting have your never ending battle with your self about this war. Remember thats your battle against your self with your preferred format.
- Oh dear.

Right-o.

You enjoy yourself with your ridiculous amatuer psychology delusions.

Once again a thread that was a positive story about what Universal are doing (ie supporting HD DVD) has been the subject of an attempt to hijack the actual story to talk-up Blu-ray, slam HD DVD and spread the usual Blu-ray lies & BS.

You guys are too obvious.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 24 Jan 2008 @ 15:46

4924.1.2008 16:44
fritz_l
Inactive

Originally posted by ken9771:


"Even after 300 passes by a steel wool pad, a Blu-ray Disc (BD-RE135N) with DURABIS hard coating shows virtually no increase in jitter, attesting to its superior ability to resist scratching.

DURABIS technology: The solution for higher performance discs"
If you read the quote it implies that there was jitter to begin with, interesting.

I cannot speak to rubbing a Bluray disk with steel wool, but I did witness one destroyed in about three minutes at the hands of a three year old.

5024.1.2008 16:49
goodswipe
Inactive

Originally posted by fritz_l:

I cannot speak to rubbing a Bluray disk with steel wool, but I did witness one destroyed in about three minutes at the hands of a three year old.
lol, not to get off topic here but, what movie was it?

5124.1.2008 17:03

Quote:
Originally posted by spydah:
I seen this and I posted what i seen.
- Source - http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?studioid=6


LMAO.

Blu-ray.com. Very funny.

Good one, genuine laugh out loud moment there, thanks.

Originally posted by spydah:
But just like before when YOU (hughjars) posted that Warner was signed and delivered on the HD-DVD side and they was not.
- Er no, it's nothing like the same.

I knew (from speaking to several people) that WB were set to go HD DVD at CES 2008.

That's why I was so confident.

That was what they had decided.

Sadly right at the last moment there was a change of decision by their Blu-ray supporting CEO & a few members of their board (probably acting under pressure from their parent company, Time Warner - who are believed to be the reason why WB went dual in the 1st place).

The Ken Graffeo interview backs up my version of events.
It was not a guess (unlike the others who claim to have 'known' WB were going Blu)

That's nothing like the same as a proven error (those movies have not been rereleased on Blu-ray by Paramount - tho they were available before when Paramount was dual format) that is known now to be false.

Nor is it anything like the same as pretending that Blu-ray has (or soon will have when - if - Warner walk) 80% of Hollywood's entire potentially available catalogue.

Originally posted by spydah:
You focus more and more on trying to convince us that Universal and Paramount are going to make a come back
- I don't have to "concentrate" on anything other than what Universal have actually said and done.

Univerals & Paramount have stayed HD DVD exclusive despite a month+ of Blu-ray claims they are going Blu any second.

Originally posted by spydah:
I will continue letting have your never ending battle with your self about this war. Remember thats your battle against your self with your preferred format.
- Oh dear.

Right-o.

You enjoy yourself with your ridiculous amatuer psychology delusions.

Once again a thread that was a positive story about what Universal are doing (ie supporting HD DVD) has been the subject of an attempt to hijack the actual story to talk-up Blu-ray, slam HD DVD and spread the usual Blu-ray lies & BS.

You guys are too obvious.
And what have you done with every thread that was released speaking positively about Blu-ray? Oh i guess you forgot about that huh. You seem to only have tunnel vision when its a convenience to you. You get all defensive acting like HD-DVD is a religion and people are bash it.

5224.1.2008 17:08

Quote:
Originally posted by wolf123:
wHAT KIND OF DISC DOES 360 use a regular dvd if so thats some next gen system woooohoooo.
Yeap, that is why 360 will die fast.

Originally posted by DDR4life:
@SDF_GR
MS have stated that the HD DVD drive is exclusively for HD movies and not games. So to see and/or expect games on it is unlikely. Although, I'm certain that 360 owners would receive (and welcome) such with open arms.
For Games (and not only), Large Capacity Media = Better Quality.
If they want to keep up with PS3 they will have to release Games in HD media.
But cause MS is ... well MS, they are waiting the war to be over and then i am sure that they will release a 360 with a BD or HD-DVD-rom embedded, and if BD is the winner as it seems right now, 360 people will have a Console with 2 eternal drives and paid MS 3 times in total.
What as i see is that MS has nothing to loose if BD wins the war.

The opposite i might say. By Blu-ray winning the war, Instantly MS has new reasons to Release a new 360 Version and BD external Drives.
Sony isnt that bad after all.

5324.1.2008 18:27

huh the 360 will die fast will it? As far as making games on hd-dvd microsoft will not do that with the 360. Maybe the next xbox, but not the 360. That would alienate everyone that currently owns a 360 because they would have to buy either a new system with the drive built in or an expensive add-on. That would kill the 360. Plus right now no games need that kind of space. Sony claimed that they used something like 24 GB for resistance. They didnt tell you that 18 GB of it was for movies. If I want to watch a movie I will buy one. The 360 holds the same position that the ps2 held over the original xbox. Even though the technology is not as good the product came to market first and developed a strong following before the PS3 came out.

Like I said before whoever can cut down the load times will be the winner to me.




PSP Life ---> 2.71 ---> 3.03 ---> 3.03 HEN ---> 1.50 ---> 3.10 OE-A' ---> What a Fun Little Machine

5424.1.2008 19:48

reading about this nonsense ... its ez to see the ps3 fanboys. I own a ps3 and a HD-DVD player. The format with HD-DVD is much easier to use ..not to mention the loss-less 7.1 HD sound is superior.

As far as who will win ..who really cares? More than half the ps3's belong to peeps still in High School ..which someone already ypointed out here ..will not buy $30 movies to watch on it while already paying $60 for the games.

Whomever gets their format to the pc at the most affordable price will win ..that will be it...and its quite hard to compete with Microsoft ...then add Apple and well .. thats pretty much the entire pc market.

I feel the higher prices of HD-DVD media (30 bucks vs 15 for normal dvd) are actually subsidizing the deflated cost of the hd-dvd players...cause its been told time and time again the hd-dvd media is nearly as cheap to produce as old-school dvds.

Again ..thats already a clear advantage...manufacturing cost always is one of the most important aspects of production. Eventually blue-ray will have to expand their manufacturing outside of what ..2 plants in japan..to compete with the already cheap costs of HD-DVD.

If they..you..and I were intelligent and put our heads/pocketbooks together ..we would demand a unified media solution...not a dual player ..but dual media..and im quite sure it can be done.

Sure ..blue ray has advantages ..but so doesnt HD-DVD .. seems you blueray fans forget that ...put them both together ..everyone is happy .the end.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 24 Jan 2008 @ 19:54

5524.1.2008 19:49

Iwish my wii was blu

5624.1.2008 20:26
ken9771
Inactive

goodswipe said in his response to my post,


Quote:
Hmmm, tell us something we don't know ken, lol.

So I'll try!

Here is some recent news info, not sure if it has been mentioned.

http://imdb.com/news/sb/2008-01-24/

Posted 24 Jan 2008 at above link.

Almost Nobody's Buying HD DVD, Says Report


In yet another sign that the battle between HD DVD and Blu-ray is nearly over, with Blu-ray emerging as the de facto hi-def standard, sales data, published by The Digital Bits website, indicated Wednesday that Blu-ray players accounted for 93 percent of the high-definition players sold for the week ending January 12. The week was the first following Warner Bros. announcement that it would no longer release films in the HD DVD format after April 30. High-Def Disc News also reported that during the same week movies released in the Blu-ray format accounted for 85 percent of high-definition sales.

5724.1.2008 20:46
hughjars
Inactive

One weeks (or even 2) prove nothing.

Here's something with a little more balance & sense on recent events -

Quote:
There was much celebrating and gloating from the Blu-ray community across the Internet this week as weekly numbers from market researcher NPD Group seemed to indicate the near-even split in sales between Blu-ray and HD DVD had become completely one-sided.

However, NPD cautions not to start dancing on HD DVD's grave.
First off, HD doesn't have a grave yet, secondly, one week of numbers do not a trend make.

Blu-ray and HD DVD are two competing formats battling it out for the chance to replace your DVD player as the next generation home media playback format.
Both are fairly similar, with the only real difference being capacity. A single layer HD DVD disc holds 15GB of data while a single layer Blu-ray disc holds 25GB. HD DVD was developed by Toshiba while Blu-ray is a Sony creation.

The two have been battling for the market for almost a year now, with the slight edge going to Blu-ray but not enough to put away HD DVD.
Then it all seemed over in a flash when on the eve of CES, Warner Bros announced it would go exclusively Blu-ray. The HD DVD Consortium cancelled its CES events while the Blu-ray camp spent the entire conference gloating.

The figures were not officially disclosed by NPD, a subscriber with access to the numbers let them out.
NPD doesn't disclose weekly numbers because it says such short term data can give an inaccurate picture.

"Weekly data can be very volatile and is designed to be used tactically," Stephen Baker, vice president of NPD, explained to InternetNews.com.
"Because of that, brands and retailers can do all sorts of things in one week to change the direction of a category for a week. That's typically not a hard thing to do."

However, Baker admitted he'd never seen a change this bad. For the week ending January 5, 2008, Blu-ray Disc player sales were at 15,257 units, while HD DVD player sales were at 14,558 units, for a near 50-50 split.

One week later, after the Warner decision to stop supporting both Blu-ray and HD DVD and support Blu-ray only, the numbers went totally lopsided. Blu-ray sales were 21,770 units, a 42 percent gain, to HD's 1,758, an 88 percent plunge.

On top of that Nielsen VideoScan reported the top selling high definition DVDs for the week of January 13, and it was entirely Blu-ray titles, with the critically-praised film "3:10 To Yuma" topping the list and three from the "Harry Potter" series making up the listing.
Those "Harry Potter" titles are also available on HD DVD, as they are Warner titles and Warner does not go exclusive until the summer, but it reflects the difference in unit sales between the formats.

"It was obviously a big shift, and I'm not saying [the Warner decision] didn't have anything to do with it," said Baker. "It likely did but there were other things to do with it as well."

The following week, Toshiba made drastic cuts to its HD DVD players, slashing the prices by half, and that data is not in yet. Baker said NPD doesn't plan on releasing it, but added with a laugh "who knows what ends up out there again," in reference to DVD fan sites.

Van Baker, research director with Gartner, said he was inclined to think the Warner deal did cause the huge shift. "It all depends on what films have been released recently and what promotions took place," he said.
"That said, the Warner announcement and Microsoft comment, when they came out and said they could shift to a Blu-ray based Xbox easily, kinda pulled the rug out from under HD DVD."

Microsoft's Xbox 360 console has an add-on HD DVD drive for $149. The company was asked at CES if a similar Blu-ray drive would be possible and company officials said it was easy enough to do. It just didn't say it would make a drive any time soon.

Van Baker doesn't think HD DVD owners are abandoning their players, but it might be making people get off the fence. "What could be giving rise to this is some people who have been reticent, maybe they have a PS3 in the house, are now saying 'oh it's over now, I can buy movies.' So people who may have been on the fence are feeling justified in buying movies now."

He said his bet is that the Blu-ray/HD format war "will be over by this Christmas. But we'll have to wait and see."

http://www.internetnews.com/storage/article.php/3723496

- It's obvious that the WB comment made some people hesitate & think twice.
It's also obvious that the Toshiba price cuts have attracted many thousands of new sales.

We can see from the Amazon USA sales numbers that HD DVD has returned to selling very strongly (stronger than before) after the price reductions.

The Toshiba HD A3 is number 1 best selling DVD player with the HD A30 at number 3 and the HD A35 at number 9.
The best selling Blu-ray player is at number 8
http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/ele...ref=pd_ts_e_nav

The HD A3 is currently the 17th best selling item in the entire Amazon USA inventory (it was at number 3 last week).
http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/ele...1822205-6060738

By contrast the best selling Blu-ray player is at number 97.

The high def market is obviously tiny & immature and with Blu-ray only managing sales of 6 million in almost 2 year when the total movie disc market is 750 million plus it is absurd to pretend that Blu-ray has won anything at this point.

Blu-ray sales do not even reach 1% of the size of the total annual movie disc market.

No matter how much the Blu-ray fanclub try and talk their favoured format up that is the true state of things right now.

Blu-ray is very much a niche product about as far away from breaking into the mainstream mass-market as you can get.

BTW Ken you might be interested in knowing that Warner have made the 1st shift in their deadline and will now supply new releases to HD DVD up to the 31st May.
5 months is a long time in business.
Don't be too surprised if this date slips again
(particularly when the new numbers emerge reflecting HD DVD's recent excellent hardware sales).
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 24 Jan 2008 @ 20:48

5824.1.2008 20:56

so now that Warner is exclusive... we just haven't addressed it yet.

5924.1.2008 21:05

Since hughjars insists on bringing up amazon sales ranks here's the graph comparing the top 100 HD DVD VS BluRay products on amazon for the last 7 days:




Black line - HD DVD
Blue Line - BluRay

From eproductwars.com

6024.1.2008 21:17
hughjars
Inactive

Juankerr, what's with this 7 days nonsense?

No one (serious) looks at 7 day 'trends'.

You have to talk quarters at least - and preferably several of them to truly see anything.

Get real.

Here's the 'Salesrank of top 100 products: from May 2007', which is a lot more like it.




But this is not even the relevant part - HD DVD is not trying to sell vast numbers of discs right now, there's not a lot of point what with SD DVD being so dominant.
The really big deal is to get HD DVD players out there.
Their owners will continue to buy SD DVD & upscale it.
That's inevitable.

But 2 things are going to happen.

Firstly they will repeat Blu-ray's trick of luring them later with deals and BOGOs and
secondly when the Twin discs come in the war is over with HD DVD sales numbers literally becoming SD DVD sales numbers.

That's why the Blu-ray gang made so much noise & have fought so hard to try and get this all over with now.

They have failed & they know the big moves are coming - and there's nothing they can do about it.

Thanks to Twin disc (and to a smaller degree combos discs) HD DVD is the only high def format that can make the change and not hurt or leave anyone behind.
Blu-ray cannot do this.

When Twin discs become the norm the numbers flip permanently and Blu-ray's little period in the sun will be well and truly over.

Game console proprietary format beckons.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 24 Jan 2008 @ 21:31

6124.1.2008 21:21

Dang, Pulled up the last 30 days, Blu has got it's butt kicking boots on.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 24 Jan 2008 @ 21:23

6224.1.2008 21:31

Originally posted by hughjars:
Juankerr, what's with this 7 days nonsense?
Let's look at the rankings in the context of the recent HD DVD player price drop shall we?

Thus the last 7 days.

Unfortunately, eproductwars.com doesn't do quarters. How about the last 30 days?




It doesn't look any better for HD DVD does it? The lower priced players were supposed to move the software.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 24 Jan 2008 @ 21:35

6324.1.2008 21:50
ken9771
Inactive

A little while ago I found the following written on a picture posted at another discussion about this format war.
Can't get back to it for a link for posting the pic, but here is the
text on the pic.

pic filename was (arguing_on_the_internet.jpg)

"Arguing on the internet is like
running in the Special Olympics.
Even if you win, you're still Retarded."

My question is:
Does anyone want to declare their side the winner?

6424.1.2008 22:20

we're merely THREE WEEKS into the NEW YEAR and Warner move. comparing "quarters" is something that is unavailable given the time constraints. don't worry, first quarter comparisons will be made but not soon enough for some.

there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with COMPARING WEEKLY numbers as weekly numbers will inturn be used to calculate quarterly figures. i GUARANTEE you, companies will dissect quarterly figures on a smaller scale, such as weekly when making analysis. they will look at weekly numbers to try and get some insight on why products sold one week as compared to another. they will compare sales in the early going of the quarter to those at the end, to determine how strong they finished up along with previous and current demand levels. they may wonder what possible factors may have come into play for sales differences (BOGO, Promotion giveaway, sale, etc)? so in actuality weekly numbers do hold some weight, but again nice try. may be weekly numbers don't mean a lot for HD-DVD goers, i mean just how many times did hd-dvd take the cake in weekly movie sales?

So far, the new year really couldn't have started out any better for Blu-ray. warner switched (along with others), their hardware is selling, medium is selling, consumer demand or interest is rising (increase in hardware sales gives that conclusion), and all this before the affordable players hit the market.

HD-DVD positives, they canceled their pre CES press conference. oops wait, thats not a positive. they still have paramount and universal but that really isn't anything new along with their pricecuts. they cut prices at the end of the year, only to be out done as usual. so really there is not a whole lot to look forward to or positive for HD-DVD.

Originally posted by hughjars:
I knew (from speaking to several people) that WB were set to go HD DVD at CES 2008.

That's why I was so confident.

That was what they had decided.

Sadly right at the last moment there was a change of decision by their Blu-ray supporting CEO & a few members of their board (probably acting under pressure from their parent company, Time Warner - who are believed to be the reason why WB went dual in the 1st place).

The Ken Graffeo interview backs up my version of events.
It was not a guess (unlike the others who claim to have 'known' WB were going Blu)

bahhh hahaha yeah right. i asked you time and time again what you were so confident about, and every time you took the 5th. i never once recalled hearing(reading) you state you had inside knowledge and thus certainty of Warner going HD-DVD exclusive prior to their announcement. all you kept saying was "wait for CES." his interview does nothing to "back up" what you said as that was AFTER THE FACT. let me guess you weren't at liberty to discuss such arrangements? please, or maybe such arrangements were never really set in stone after all? lmfao
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 24 Jan 2008 @ 22:32

6525.1.2008 10:32
hughjars
Inactive

.....and the whole time while the Blu-ray fanclub try and shout down the facts they remain the facts.

Universal & Paramount (the 2nd & 3rd largest Hollywood studios) remain HD DVD exclusive.

HD DVD has not 'died' and HD DVD isn't going away anywhere.

HD DVD hardware continues to sell extremely well.

The rest is just the usual attempts by the PS3/Blu-ray fanclub & 'project hydra' to try and talk-up 'momentum' for their favourite format.

Tough luck guys, even with the Warner post-dated pledge you have yet again failed to knock HD DVD out of the market.

(and you know what that means for your beloved Blu-ray.)

My turn to LMFAO.

6625.1.2008 11:24
ken9771
Inactive

A few days ago I didnot know anything about either format and
I had the idea that the "war" was only going on between the companies,
not half the damm world's population.

Not knowing about either format, I took time to look at the tech
differences between the two and decided that someday I would start using Blu-ray for all my data storage because of the better tech
diferences.

Looking at all this bickering and arguing at this site and many others
I wonder "why?". In the end, we all know that the "best" format
will remain.
I and many others "know" it will be Blu-ray.

So I ask those that are for Blu-ray, remain calm, avoid arguing
with these people that belive otherwise, after all they are just feeling desperation because of the pending passing of
a cheap, inferior format that we know will be ended.

After this is posted one of them or more will make some
sly remark; that's ok, let them and also let them have the
last word as we know despite what they say it will in the end
be us that will L"O"FAO.

6725.1.2008 12:19

Quote:
Whomever gets their format to the pc at the most affordable price will win ..that will be it...and its quite hard to compete with Microsoft ...then add Apple and well .. thats pretty much the entire pc market.
Toshiba has already started putting hd-dvd players in their laptop computers. And being that the xbox360 drive works with a pc just needing the correct drivers, its pretty clear who is winning that war.

For anyone to say this "War" will be over soon is just being ignorant. There are way to many companies with huge investments in both sides to just let either format "Die" anytime soon. Even when it is clear who the winner is the other side will still be grasping for one last stand.

As far as looking at weekly sales figures to gauge a products performance, there is a reason why those figures cannot be used and why you should look at sales for a quarter at the minimum. Have you ever heard the term "New Release". From week to week depending on the movies being released, the numbers could be very one sided. But that does not mean that you can judge a products performance from that. It would be the same as comparing game sales between consoles. Thats why when companies report on their earnings and projected sales figures, they do it quarterly.

Its looks like most of the people in this thread are choosing one side or the other and claiming that they can predict the future. If that is true why are you wasting your time on forums.



PSP Life ---> 2.71 ---> 3.03 ---> 3.03 HEN ---> 1.50 ---> 3.10 OE-A' ---> What a Fun Little Machine

6825.1.2008 16:54
banned4Lf
Inactive

I've said it a BILLION TRILLION GAZILLION times.................They're both here to stay. Dual format players will be the standard. Mark my words because I know just about everything there is to know!!!

6925.1.2008 17:00
banned4Lf
Inactive

Quote:
Quote:
Whomever gets their format to the pc at the most affordable price will win ..that will be it...and its quite hard to compete with Microsoft ...then add Apple and well .. thats pretty much the entire pc market.
Toshiba has already started putting hd-dvd players in their laptop computers. And being that the xbox360 drive works with a pc just needing the correct drivers, its pretty clear who is winning that war.

For anyone to say this "War" will be over soon is just being ignorant. There are way to many companies with huge investments in both sides to just let either format "Die" anytime soon. Even when it is clear who the winner is the other side will still be grasping for one last stand.

As far as looking at weekly sales figures to gauge a products performance, there is a reason why those figures cannot be used and why you should look at sales for a quarter at the minimum. Have you ever heard the term "New Release". From week to week depending on the movies being released, the numbers could be very one sided. But that does not mean that you can judge a products performance from that. It would be the same as comparing game sales between consoles. Thats why when companies report on their earnings and projected sales figures, they do it quarterly.

Its looks like most of the people in this thread are choosing one side or the other and claiming that they can predict the future. If that is true why are you wasting your time on forums.


Actually I read through intensive research, that the HD-DVD player for the PC and (even for the Xbox) has serious quality issues regarding movie playback. Major shuttering, Pixels aren't nearly as "tight" and the coloring and brightness of the playback is nothing compared to that of stand alone players.


Technologically blu-ray is superior but it's fairly negligible like the size of the actual laser and the sound processing. I hope both stay..........they have respective features that are great. Besides........all this B.S. hype is driving the prices down.

7025.1.2008 18:04
ken9771
Inactive

banned4Lf said

quote]I know just about everything there is to know!!!


That covers a lot of bases dude!

So, it seems you really know your shit?

Let me ask you a simple question and see just how smart you are,

"What's that white stuff that is mixed in chicken shit?"

Just sub next letter, just want you to think
about it for a few seconds.

ANSWER -------> SGZSR RGHS SN

7126.1.2008 11:16
fritz_l
Inactive

Blu ray and HD DVD are very similar in technology. The differences are very minor. Blu ray is capable of tranfer rates between 36 to 48 MBPS and is capable of 54 MBPS but nobody is currently making anything that operates at that transfer speed. HD DVD has a fixed transfer rate of 36 MBPS. The HDTV standard requirement is 19.3 MBPS, so both formats are operating well above what is required for the video equipment that is available. Both Blu ray and HD DVD use Blue lasers operating at 405 nanometers, the difference being the focal point on the disk. The only area where Blu ray has an apparent advantage is capacity. Blu ray has a 50 gb capacity with a two layer disk versus HDDVD's 30 gb capacity. Blu ray has a potential for higher capacities but a 100 GB blu ray disk is four layer disk and there are no players on the market that can read the disk and no media in this capacity available either. At this point in time for movie playback the capacity advantage does not really amount to much of a difference.

There is an effort to try to manufacture Bluray media now on existing DVD production equipment to get the manufacturing costs down. In effect making making Blu ray media the same as HD DVD with a differenct name.

Neither of the formats will be around for the long term. I would fully expect that Blu ray and/or HD DVD will become obsolete at roughly the same time as standard DVD.

7226.1.2008 13:11
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by fritz_l:
Blu ray and HD DVD are very similar in technology. The differences are very minor. Blu ray is capable of tranfer rates between 36 to 48 MBPS and is capable of 54 MBPS but nobody is currently making anything that operates at that transfer speed. HD DVD has a fixed transfer rate of 36 MBPS.
- Not quite.

Blu-ray has a max raw data bit-rate of 53.95mbps.

If the 51gb Triple Layer HD DVD has kept the 1.5X spin speed that thee original 45gb TL disc had then HD DVD will have the higher raw bit-rate @54.825mbps.
We await the final word on the TL disc specs.

But you are quite right, modern codecs don't need that capability (and it was only ever included in Blu-ray's specs so Sony could use the ancient MPEG2 codec without it looking completely horrible.....although as their 1st BD releases showed it was pretty marginal at best).

Originally posted by fritz_l:
The HDTV standard requirement is 19.3 MBPS, so both formats are operating well above what is required for the video equipment that is available.
- Where is this requirement?

Here in the UK our HD broadcasters regularly broadcast at well under this figure.

But then again VC-1 compression can produce a perfectly acceptable and even excellent image with bit-rates @12 -16mbps.

Originally posted by fritz_l:
The only area where Blu ray has an apparent advantage is capacity. Blu ray has a 50 gb capacity with a two layer disk versus HDDVD's 30 gb capacity.
- That's no longer correct.

The 51gb triple layer HD DVD disc has now been fully approved by the DVD Forum.

It's also an unspoken truth that the practical limit of the 50gb BD DL disc is not 50gb but 47gb, after 47gb their error rates go through the roof (this is why there are no movies with a total of more than 47gb on the DL disc).

51gb TL HD DVD has yet to be used by a studio (but this is going to change soon) but nevertheless it is there to be used now.

There are now no practical advantages that Blu-ray has over HD DVD.

Originally posted by fritz_l:
Neither of the formats will be around for the long term. I would fully expect that Blu ray and/or HD DVD will become obsolete at roughly the same time as standard DVD.
- I agree that Blu-ray can never replace and be the next DVD but I think HD DVD has the opportunity to co-exist and compliment DVD thanks to the Twin disc & to a much lesser extent the combo.

Blu-ray will not even have a proper range of profile 2.0 players at a decent range of prices this year - so that's another year lost in the attempt to replace DVD.

It's all happening far too late for Blu-ray and HD DVD is far from out of this no matter how much noise the Blu-ray fanclub make.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 26 Jan 2008 @ 13:13

7326.1.2008 15:46
fritz_l
Inactive

Originally posted by hughjars:
If the 51gb Triple Layer HD DVD has kept the 1.5X spin speed that thee original 45gb TL disc had then HD DVD will have the higher raw bit-rate @54.825mbps.
We await the final word on the TL disc specs.

But you are quite right, modern codecs don't need that capability (and it was only ever included in Blu-ray's specs so Sony could use the ancient MPEG2 codec without it looking completely horrible.....although as their 1st BD releases showed it was pretty marginal at best).

I was comparing dual layer to dual layer because they are both available in the market place and to keep the comparisons in a valid context. Otherwise it is just comparing spec sheets and if you are just looking at the spec sheets Blu ray appears to be potentially better. The problem is that Blu ray at this point is predominantly unrealized potential. No has yet figured out how to deliver on all its promises.
Originally posted by hughjars:
Quote:
The HDTV standard requirement is 19.3 MBPS, so both formats are operating well above what is required for the video equipment that is available.
- Where is this requirement?

Here in the UK our HD broadcasters regularly broadcast at well under this figure.

But then again VC-1 compression can produce a perfectly acceptable and even excellent image with bit-rates @12 -16mbps.

My mistake that is actually the maximum figure, practical application is as you pointed out lower.

By and large I tend to agree that HD DVD is the more viable product right now. Blu ray still has too many issues, even if HD DVD were to disappear tomorrow it would not be worth investing in the Blu ray technology for several more years due to lack of standardization and mandatory compliance with the standard once BR group can finally figure out what should be in it. The manufacturers have already admitted that the stand alone BD players available now are already obsolete. Early adopters were used to "create momentum" for the product. It is true, PS3's can be updated to accomodate the evolving features of Bluray although there is some question that if the disk capacity increases those players will be worthless as well. Perhaps the proposed solution there will be to buy the PS4, who knows.

HDTV market penetration is still very low at this point and will likely remain low for this year and probably into next due to world economic conditions. Chances are very high that by that time all of the debate over these two formats will be moot.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 26 Jan 2008 @ 15:52

7426.1.2008 20:46

I don't think that Blu-Ray has won just yet! Much of its so called advantage comes from the Blu-Ray units in the PS3. So how well is the PS3 doing against say the Xbox 360 which has adopted HD DVD?

It comes as no surprise to anyone that the wii is the top selling console of 2007, but the Xbox took second, followed by PS2 in third, and the PS3 in a distant 4th place.

Many of us who enjoy doing backups have already adopted HD DVD because it is cheaply available as an add on to the Xbox, but works well on PC. For $169 and 6 free HD DVDs it's a great way to get ones feet wet.

Edited to add link:

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6523709.html?desc=topstory

I may have a somewhat jaded position against Sony because of their near militant support of the RIAA and MPAA. In my view Blu-Ray is not a benefit.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 26 Jan 2008 @ 20:49

7512.2.2008 9:07

i am a fan of hd. i own the xbox360 add on.got that? good.
i am not buying Any more hd films. yes i have sold out and bought a ps3. i have done this for films not games. what i am saying is this. you can not use the argument of people who get ps3 dont buy films. here in the uk it is the best, cheapest and only fully upgradable player. the upscaled quality of non blu ray disc`s is stunning. you all had the ability to market hd and it has been a cataloge of missed opportunities.
price has been another problem. not of the hardware but of the disc`s themselves. doom for at present 15 pounds. i picked it up on standard dvd for 2!!!!! this is leveled at blue ray as well. people are not informed enough to shell out 15 to 25+ for a film they may not watch more than once or twice, when thet can get it cheap from a supermarket.
anyway all i can say is let HDDVD rest in peace. we now need one format with one goal. blu ray has been marketed better with superior hardware support. if you want blu ray get a ps3
if you want Hddvd get better advice
sorry

7612.2.2008 10:53

Originally posted by davej6:
i am a fan of hd. i own the xbox360 add on.got that? good.
i am not buying Any more hd films. yes i have sold out and bought a ps3. i have done this for films not games. what i am saying is this. you can not use the argument of people who get ps3 dont buy films. here in the uk it is the best, cheapest and only fully upgradable player. the upscaled quality of non blu ray disc`s is stunning. you all had the ability to market hd and it has been a cataloge of missed opportunities.
price has been another problem. not of the hardware but of the disc`s themselves. doom for at present 15 pounds. i picked it up on standard dvd for 2!!!!! this is leveled at blue ray as well. people are not informed enough to shell out 15 to 25+ for a film they may not watch more than once or twice, when thet can get it cheap from a supermarket.
anyway all i can say is let HDDVD rest in peace. we now need one format with one goal. blu ray has been marketed better with superior hardware support. if you want blu ray get a ps3
if you want Hddvd get better advice
sorry
Cool. You should buy Call of Duty 4. It's amazing. Also try Burnout Paradise. Totally amazing. PS3 also has a great feature while playing music; the Earth display. Try it out. Let me know how you like it.

Later!

7713.2.2008 10:43

will try the earth, but as i say i am not bothered about games on the ps3 unless they are not available on xbox360. the xbox live feature is superb. i know ps3 will get it eventually but until then its 360 for me.
:0)

7815.2.2008 10:10

oh dear.... rumours circulating that toshiba are to drop hd dvd.think i`ll just put that copy of transformers back on the shelf and wait for paramount to release it on blu ray.

7916.2.2008 14:26

Quote:
oh dear.... rumours circulating that toshiba are to drop hd dvd.think
It is quite possible that Toshiba will in fact end its battle against Blu-Ray, and if that is true then we are all the losers. Not only will be be faced with the buggy and irregular performance of the over priced Blu-Ray, but we will have entered the "Twilight Zone" of High Definition backups, and be subjected to the Nazi tactics of the MPAA and Sony. The worst possible outcome is if Sony gets a major foothold into any new format. Hope upon hoping that HD DVD survives in some usable form, such as backing up Blu-Ray copies to a workable HD format.;)

8016.2.2008 14:31
varnull
Inactive

Originally posted by davej6:
think i`ll just put that copy of transformers back on the shelf and wait for paramount to release it on blu ray.
And that is exactly what all the blu fanboys have been trying to get you to do all along..

Well I suppose we should all find ways to make blu copies that break players, eh soph? and tell all the nubs how to make them like that. Of course unless sony work out how to do that first ;)

8116.2.2008 15:37

Originally posted by Sophocles:
Quote:
oh dear.... rumours circulating that toshiba are to drop hd dvd.think
It is quite possible that Toshiba will in fact end its battle against Blu-Ray, and if that is true then we are all the losers. Not only will be be faced with the buggy and irregular performance of the over priced Blu-Ray, but we will have entered the "Twilight Zone" of High Definition backups, and be subjected to the Nazi tactics of the MPAA and Sony. The worst possible outcome is if Sony gets a major foothold into any new format. Hope upon hoping that HD DVD survives in some usable form, such as backing up Blu-Ray copies to a workable HD format.;)
Amen brother.


8218.2.2008 7:47

Thy be fighting words my dear. The truth of the matter yes Warner would have to wait till their contract ends and moves forward however i don't really see the consumers making the final choice we will have a say in the matter but it will always come down to wat will be most cost effective.

8320.2.2008 10:11

[b]In an interview with BetaNews, Universal Studios executive vice president and co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group Ken Graffeo has said that despite rampant rumors the struggling format is here to stay. He did however leave the door open for putting an end to the format war if Blu-ray is willing to make an agreement.

and apart from famous last words!!!!!!
the agreement seems to have been, if toshiba drop hd then we will support blu ray squire. lol i sound like a fanboy. hey maybe i am. if i had listened earlier i now wouldnt have a crap xbox 360 hd addon with no intention of buying films. oh and as for the argument of not being able to do blu ray back ups!!! with the price of blank media why would i want to? if anything kills the next generation of dvd it will be small minded idiots that rip and upload films to torrent sites and the even smaller minded people that think its ok to then download them.
note for the film companys!!!! get the price of your media down. then maybe people wouldnt be so keen to pirate

8420.2.2008 22:05

Those of us who have argued against Blu-Ray weren't doing it because we thought that it was a mediocre technology, but because it is under the control of Sony who will make us all pay for it for some time to come. When Sony first made the Beta Max they collided with the copyright issue and they are one of the original forces behind the notion of "Fair Use." At the time it suited their needs, but now that they own copyrighted movies and music their priorities have flipped and "Fair Use doesn't sound like such a good deal anymore.

Sony and the MPAA/RIAA are in effect controlling two major art forms, film and music. They decide what's hot and what's not while wonderfully creative film makers and musicians are cast aside because they don't fit the business prototype. It's getting to the point where fewer and fewer corporations are controlling most major forms of media, and that allows them to call the shots on what we see and hear. Right now the only hope for art in either of those disciplines is from Indie music and film creators.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with HD DVD as a format. It's based on current DVD designs for both hardware and media. The only major hardware difference was the replacing of a red laser with a blue laser. That meant that manufacturing HD DVD required little in the way of retooling. The price of both hardware and media would have come down much faster then it with Blu-Ray which is tricky to manufacture the hardware and media. This is why I say that we will all be the losers.


A single layer Blu-Ray disc costs about $12.00 for 25 gigabytes and I don't expect the price to come down for years if ever with Sony in control. Sony has no vested interest in marketing recorders or recordable media because they will make more money from licensing and selling expensive movies and recordable media just might cut into those profits. I know that in time Sony will work the bugs out of Blu-Ray and players will come down in price, but media will always be too expensive for those of us who still complain about paying $2 for dual layer.

It would be cheaper to build a rack of hard disks and convert to WMV-HD which can compress a 2 hour High Def movie to about 9 Gigs with still HD quality video and sound. Large hard disks are now cheaper per gigabyte than blu-Ray media and hard drives have already pushed beyond a terabyte. Oh well just ranting now, but time will tell where it is all headed. One thing will soon become certain, enthusiasts will find an acceptable niche in HD technology soon enough.;)


"Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:

Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/
.

8520.2.2008 22:43

Sophocles: I don't mean to be a pain but I think you're giving Sony too much credit as to what happens in the BluRay camp. The BDA or BluRay Disc Association has ultimate control.

IIRC the only things Sony has control over are:

1. The prices they charge for the players or drives they make. Other CE makers have the freedom to charge whatever they want for their BluRay capable products.

2. The rates they charge at their DADC BluRay replication plant. If the studios can get better rates at other replicators like CINRAM then they're free to have their discs made elsewhere.

3. The specs for Sony Pictures releases. It's up to the individual studios to put 1.1/2.0 features, BD+ or other stuff in their discs.

...and maybe a few other things

Any changes or modifications to the current BluRay standard and any other key issue regarding the format has to go through the BDA and has to be voted on by the 18 members of the board of directors. This board consists of CE manufacturers and film studios.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc_Association

8621.2.2008 17:34

error5: Good you pointed out that BluRay is not just SOny and is actually one big group of companies.

Who holds IP rights and patents and who stands to make profits from BluRay royalties?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987
It would go to BDA member companies once all of the IP and royalty disputes are sorted by the MPEG-LA.

Currently these are the companies that stand to make some amount of money from Blu-ray royalties:

CyberLink Corporation
Dell Inc.
Hewlett-Packard Company
Hitachi Ltd.
Koninklijke Philips Electronics N.V.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. (Panasonic)
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
Pioneer Corporation
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Sanyo Electric Co., Ltd.
Sharp Corporation
Sonic Solutions
Sony Corporation
TDK Corporation
Victor Company of Japan (JVC, minority owned by Matsushita), Ltd.
Warner Home Video Inc.

These are the companies that have contributed IP to Blu-ray.

As for their relative importance in that list, I'll give the top five:

1. Panasonic
2. Samsung
3. Sony
4. Philips
5. Pioneer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987
Of those listed, Samsung and Panasonic with Sony and Pioneer close behind. The whole thing is fairly equal and there isn't one single company whose IP stake is significantly higher or lower than any of the others in the five I listed.

Who stands to lose or gain the most, well, the company who stands to lose the most is Pioneer, they have banked heavily on the high-end market for a long time and Blu-ray gives them a great outlet. The others are far too diversified to be effected if Blu-ray were to fail. On gaining, the six big studios stand to gain the most, in the CE world it would be Panasonic and Sony which is why these are the two companies seen fighting most along with Pioneer for the future of Blu-ray.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=994913&page=2

Post#38

8721.2.2008 18:05

The only thing missed above is that Sony created the BDA to insure that blu-Ray wouldn't suffer Betamax's fate.

If Sony left the BDA it would collapse without them. Since you've listed Blu Ray patent holders, perhaps you could list their individual patent contributions? Since the real money is going to be with whichever company holds the patent for the media! Who would that be? Trust me Sony has more to gain by blu ray's success than all the others combined, that's why they so militantly advocated for it in the first place and that's why they now support the MPAA Nazi tactics.



"Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:

Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/
.

8822.2.2008 4:51

WHY WOULD SONY POSSIBLY WANT TO LEAVE THE BDA. sony dont just release films on blu ray. they are a games company as well.all future ps3 games will be bluray. oh and as well as universal going to bluray releases. paramount have quietly slipped back into the camp as well. so if blu ray
fails it would still be down to the idiot pirates who arnt doing anyone any favours

8922.2.2008 7:10

Quote:
WHY WOULD SONY POSSIBLY WANT TO LEAVE THE BDA
No one said that Sony would leave the BDA?

Quote:
so if blu ray fails it would still be down to the idiot pirates who arnt doing anyone any favours
Wrong! If Blu Ray fails it will be because of its high price. Please note that one person's pirate is another persons fair use. In my experience, people who go around calling others idiots aren't generally "the sharpest pencils" in the box themselves.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 Feb 2008 @ 7:15

"Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:

Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/
.

9022.2.2008 9:04

Sophocles
if you want to make it personal im game.
fair use means owning the original bought copy. i think if you look at sites like torrent reactor you know where im going. rips of films that havnt completed a cinema run never mind had a released date on dvd.
sharpest pencil?
you obviously have no lead in yours.
i am in electrical sales and i also run the sevice department. its my job to know whats happening in the market. why do you think i stopped buying into hd dvd.
we can rant all we like but it doesnt alter the fact that blu ray was better presented to the general public. and the next gen console ps3 happened to have a blue ray drive. so even if bought for games you are gonna buy a film or 2 yes? and i can honestly say that i also hate sony and its past failures... minidisk, drm anyone?
is bluray really that expensive? when vhs came out in the uk i can remember vhs rental company`s charging 10 pound plus for a worn out ex rental and 30 pound plus for a new film. vhs players costing upto a thousand. look at the price of dvd players when they 1st emerged. the films where all around 20 pound. the average price of a bluray now. also the same thing will happen to the blu ray players as did dvd. small race of people called the chinese. once they start to produce next gen players at lower prices then the major players will follow suit. and before you say no they wont(the chinese that is)yes they will, ive checked. not exactly the ramblings of a dull pencil eh?
you idiot!!! no just joking ;0)
what do others think?

9122.2.2008 15:07

Originally posted by Sophocles:
Wrong! If Blu Ray fails it will be because of its high price.
Then why did HD DVD fail even with such low player prices?

The reason why HD DVD player prices are so low is because Toshiba artificially deflated them mostly as a last resort to failing software sales (compared to BluRay) and Warner's defection.

The low price points for HD DVD were simply not sustainable for such a new piece of technology. Did you even wonder why no other major CE manufacturer wanted to come out with thier own brand of player? That's because it was NOT PROFITABLE TO DO SO.

The current prices of BluRay players are more realistic for new technology and will be profitable for most manufacturers. They can then funnel funds to more R&D thereby improving their future products. There has to be an incentive for companies to make players and HD DVD simply did not supply that incentive. The prices should come down at a reasonable rate as development costs get defrayed.

If you can't afford $300-400 for a decent piece of hardware right now, after investing in an HDTV, then I don't know what else to tell you but to wait until the prices become more reasonable to you.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 Feb 2008 @ 15:18

9222.2.2008 17:22

Quote:
if you want to make it personal im game
Did I make it personal or did you? Calling people idiots could be implied as a statement directed at me. You do know of that using all caps in a statement is considered yelling and not permitted by forum rules?

Quote:
i am in electrical sales and i also run the sevice department. its my job to know whats happening in the market. why do you think i stopped buying into hd dvd
I'm a qualified (certificated) recording studio engineer, educator, computer technologist and a proud computer hacker/geek.

I dislike Sony because of their tactics. I believe that Blu Ray is a fantastic technology but because of its design it has yet to be perfected. It was a major reason that the PlayStation III took so long to hit the market. Blu_Ray still isn't quite right even now and it might be generations before it is.


Quote:
he reason why HD DVD player prices are so low is because Toshiba artificially deflated
Actually HD DVD hit the market being artificially inflated.
HD DVD is really just the same old DVD technology that already exists. All that was really done was an upgrade to standard DVD by giving it a blue laser. Decent DVD burners can be purchased for $35 so exactly how much does a blue laser increase the price over the old red lasers? HD DVD can be manufactured using systems that are already in place.

HD DVD systems are easy and inexpensive to manufacture but Blu Ray is a new design that is not yet perfected. The difficulties involved with manufacturing Blu Ray will keep the prices high for a long time to come, and I suspect that it will be years if ever before Blu Ray media becomes affordable.

I have no problem with Blu-Ray except that now I will have to spend perhaps thousands of dollars more over time to get what is really no better than the format that it beat

Blu-Rays major achievement and leagcy might very well be that the current DVD format will continue to dominate for a long time to come.




"Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:

Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/
.

9323.2.2008 5:05

Sophocles
no i did`nt realise and for that i apologise.
and i aint no angel if i can get software for free im going to do it. lets face it some of the films ar`nt worth the money. what better way than to check them out on divx and then buy it if its good and you want the better quality. i just dont agree with people saying the prices for bluray are overinflated(hardware) when vhs was extortionate when it became commercially available. and yes the standard still hasnt reached its final version(2.0). but as ive already stated the best and only fully upgradable bluray player is the ps3, like it or not. version 2 bdlive will be the final standard. ps3 has just been upgraded to 1.1.
i still think that there should have been only one standard between all the manufacturers and studios. but its not the first time its happened and wont be the last. before playstation came out nintendo had signed up with sony to produce a new games system. sony decided they could do it better and somehow nintendo was cut loose. it was only then that nintendo realised they had signed their rights away for a disk drive. thats why they stayed with cartridges for so long and then the smaller disks for the gamecube.
also one of the other factors in the hddvd versus bluray! the stores like game and gamestation(uk). they pushed ps3 and bluray far harder than they did hddvd and the xbox addon.
in the uk the electrical stores like ours(independants) held off on ordering either system because we knew that this would happen sooner rather than later.
so yes i understand your arguments, but after using ps3 for a few weeks now i am very impressed and pleased as punch that i didnt buy a stand alone bluray player.
also i wont buy any more hdvd disks as if in the future my xbox addon fails, where am i going to get another unit from? anyone remember phillips cdi?
anyway apologies again for any offence caused

9423.2.2008 7:04

davej6

I've long tired of conflict so no worries.

Here's an article that regarding some of Sony's tactics that you might find interesting.

Quote:
Although celebrated yesterday, the victory was sealed last month when Sony swayed Warner Bros. to back Sony's Blu-ray technology and quit producing movies using Toshiba Corp.'s rival HD DVD format.

What remains a mystery is just how big a push Warner needed to pick sides. Analysts say Sony only prevailed following a heated bidding war against Toshiba, with the reward reaching as much as $400-million (U.S.). Neither side has confirmed the size of any bids or payments.
Quote:
he war was over when Sony managed to line up a critical mass of partners - in Hollywood, Silicon Valley and on Main Street.

The tipping point was Warner Bros. But Sony Pictures, Walt Disney Co. and News Corp.'s Twentieth Century Fox Film Corp. had already done the same - signing exclusive sealed deals with presumably rich royalty arrangements.

"This was heavy hitters in a back room talking about what the royalty structure was going to be and how much money they were willing to put on the table to be exclusive with one camp or the other. That was the determining factor here," concluded Van Baker, an analyst with market research firm Gartner Inc.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/s.../?query=Toshiba
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Feb 2008 @ 7:11

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9523.2.2008 9:11

Sophocles
i understand what your saying, but is there any difference between that and hddvd paying paramount 150 million?

9623.2.2008 14:04

Quote:
s there any difference between that and hddvd paying paramount 150 million?
As I understand it Toshiba paid Paramount $50 million and Dreamworks $100 million to promote HD DVD, but there were no apparent exclusivity clauses,which left them free to also release in Blu Ray, but I can't say for certain. Sony's payments were intended to exclude HD DVD and put them out of business. However no one knows the truth. My concern was and is that with HD DVD gone the real losers are the consumers.

If I had an opportunity to choose a burner of the two I would have chosen HD DVD because it would have resulted in a much lower price for burners and media. As it stands it's cheaper to purchase a large hard drive for storage than it is for Blu Ray media not including the price of the burner. The cost for 500 gigabyte on blu ray just for media alone is around $160 to $170 (still have to buy a burner) and for a hard drive $105. which makes it about 35% less to store it on a hard drive.


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9723.2.2008 14:09

Originally posted by Sophocles:
As I understand it Toshiba paid Paramount $50 million and Dreamworks $100 million to promote HD DVD, but there were no apparent exclusivity clauses,which left them free to also release in Blu Ray, but I can't say for certain.
Then you understood wrong. Paramount/DW were already promoting and releasing on HD DVD at the time. The $150 M deal was to go HD DVD exclusive.

Like I posted elsewhere, the reason why Paramount was the last to switch was lawyers took time to figure out how much of the $150 M they had to return to Toshiba.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Feb 2008 @ 14:12

9823.2.2008 14:30

Quote:
Then you understood wrong. Paramount/DW were already promoting and releasing on HD DVD at the time. The $150 M deal was to go HD DVD exclusive
Only partly wrong nothing was locked in.

Quote:
The two studios may have left themselves wiggle room, however. Paramount’s agreement to use only HD DVD is limited to only 18 months. And Paramount noted that no films directed by Steven Spielberg were included in the deal “as his films are not exclusive to either format.” Mr. Spielberg is a co-founder of DreamWorks SKG, a unit of Paramount.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/21/techno...F+4r1NyAsum87vQ

Quote:
Posted on January 4, 2008 by Tyler Pruitt
Filed Under Format War, HD DVD, Blu-ray, Studios |

warner.jpeg

According to a trusted source that was close to the negotiations, Warner and FOX were working on a deal to go Exclusive to HD DVD as recent as last week. Our source tells us that Warner was only willing to go to HD DVD if FOX would go with them. Their thinking was if they just went to HD DVD by themselves, it would not end the format war. Early this week FOX was paid an undisclosed amount to remain exclusive to Blu-ray. With the FOX deal falling through, Warner had no choice but to accept the BDA’s $500 Million offer to go Blu-ray exclusive. We do wonder if FOX was just playing the HD DVD side, while having no intentions of ever switching.
http://formatwarcentral.com/index.php/20...n-from-the-bda/


I realize that posting links really doesn't mean a whole lost since the essence of the debate was that with HD DVD gone, the consumers are the losers.



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9923.2.2008 14:51

Originally posted by Sophocles:
Only partly wrong nothing was locked in.
The NYT article was proven wrong by Paramount CTO Alan Bell. He stated in an interview with PC World that the exclusivity agreement with HD DVD was "for the long haul" and "indefinite."

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,136253...gy/article.html

IIRC, the only way Paramount/DW could be released from the agreement was if Toshiba dropped the format - which they did last week.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Feb 2008 @ 15:08

10023.2.2008 15:28

Quote:
wrong again
Nope! Right again because I wasn't really wrong the first time and there is nothing in the PC World article that refutes the 18 month deal mentioned in the New York Times. In fact where is the New York Times even mentioned in the PC world article?

An intent of indefinite collaboration doesn't meant that an 18 month deal wasn't made. Where in the PC world article did it say that NYT was wrong? If I had to choose between the New York Times and PC world for my news the New York Times would win hand down.

Quote:
urbank (CA) - Warner Home Video announced this week that it will continue to release titles on HD DVD for three weeks longer than it originally anticipated.

Earlier this month, Warner said that it is going to stop supporting HD DVD in May. However, it has now decided to push that deadline back a few weeks to be able to release more of its upcoming titles on both formats.

Despite Warner's Blu-ray exclusivity announcement, over a dozen Warner titles are still slated for release on HD DVD over the next four months. The extension of HD DVD support confirms that Twister and Bonnie & Clyde will come out on both formats instead of being Blu-ray exclusives.

Some other notable Warner titles that will still be released on both formats include Justice League: The New Frontier, I Am Legend, and August Rush.
Now Tomshardware I listen to.

There are several sites that support the 18 month deal with no mention of the NYT.

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/35741/98/
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 24 Feb 2008 @ 13:53

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10123.2.2008 15:35

Why are you quoting a news article about Warner?

Weren't you discussing Paramount?

10223.2.2008 15:51

Originally posted by juankerr:
Why are you quoting a news article about Warner?
Weren't you discussing Paramount?
LOL. Yep - that got me scratching my head too when he suddenly quoted that Warner article.

Anyway, I think this thread has gone waaay too off topic.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Feb 2008 @ 15:54

10323.2.2008 15:57

Originally posted by error5:
Anyway, I think this thread has gone waaay too off topic.
You're right. My apologies for that.

10423.2.2008 16:27

Quote:
Why are you quoting a news article about Warner?

I saw no reason to post anything regarding Paramount since the PC World article did not support your statement that the New York Times article was refuted. I didn't need to add anything about the Paramount deal because there was nothing in your statement to debate. However if you can show me where it is written that the NYT article was wrong then I will stand to be corrected.

I threw the Warner article into the mix so that you both could scratch your heads.;)I just might throw a few more in for good measure.

And no it is not off topic at all!

The original point of the thread is "HD DVD here to stay" which is pretty global.

That leaves the door open for a number of differing opinions regarding its longevity or need for survival. The point that I made earlier in this thread is that Blu Ray really is no better than HD DVD and that Blu Ray technology is buggier, less reliable. That translates into higher prices, and with Sony in charge of an almost gestapo militant protectionism. HD DVD was the more sensible choice because it was built on tried and true technology.

We are entering a time when fewer and fewer media corporations are deciding what we watch and hear, and let artistry and the truth be damned.

The only thing that Blu Ray does that HD DVD doesn't is hold an extra 20 megabytes which amounts to nothing for movie playback since it can hold any movie release, and even less for recording since no one is going to purchase a $16 disc for that purpose. I throw a flip when I get a type 5 coaster. Imagine getting a $16 dollar Blu Ray coaster? Dual layer discs still cost about $2.00 each after having been around for about 4 years so. How long do you think it will be before Blu Ray discs are affordable?

How about never!
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Feb 2008 @ 18:28

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10523.2.2008 16:33

Quote:
You're right. My apologies for that.
No need to apologize, without this debate the thread is dead anyway.

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10626.2.2008 10:14

hey guys i think the main get out clause for paramount was if warner went bluray exclusive.which they did. otherwise they were locked in to hddvd for 18 months :0)

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