AfterDawn: Tech news

Internet assault video sparks controversy

Written by James Delahunty (Google+) @ 11 Apr 2008 21:10 User comments (52)

Internet assault video sparks controversy Eight teenage girls who assaulted another girl they had lured into a house before posting a recording of the incident to YouTube had done so to gain worldwide exposure. The use of the Internet, and particularly YouTube, which is home to millions of clips uploaded by users, to achieve the goal has opened a debate about how much responsibility sites like YouTube need to take for the content on their servers.
Media experts have stated that sites like YouTube should not get the blame when something like this happens. Furthermore, Kelly McBride, the ethics group leader at the Poynter Institute, believes this video's existence is a good thing in a way. "The fact that the video was shot because they were seeking publicity was secondary," McBride said.

McBride continued: "A crime was committed in our community, and if there's a videotape of it, I want some information. That video was incredibly revealing. It told more truth about what happened than any other form of reporting could have told." On Friday, a judge set bail for each of the defendants at $30,000 while prosecutors said that seven of the girls would be tried as adults for their role in the vicious attack.

"It's absolutely an animalistic attack," Sheriff Grady Judd said earlier this week. "They lured her into the home for the express purpose of filming the attack and posting it on the Internet." The girls now face charges of kidnapping, battery and witness tampering. The arrest report describes how one of the girls struck the victim's head several times before slamming it into a wall, knocking her unconscious.

YouTube and owner Google Inc. didn't comment on the case, but said that the sites' policy is to remove clips that show someone getting "hurt, attacked or humiliated." YouTube itself is generally exempt from any liability under the law, and the video itself is technically not illegal. "There is no legal reason this video cannot be shown. It is obviously distasteful, abhorrent what the teenagers did to the victim, but it doesn't really make sense (to ask), 'Should YouTube have taken it down?'" John Morris, senior counsel with the Center for Democracy and Technology, said.


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52 user comments

111.4.2008 21:25

YouTube should be banned everywhere on the world, and it's servers should be burned in nitrous-nitrogen induced flames and then smashed up with a 20 pound hammer...

212.4.2008 0:00

Originally posted by DSWarrior:
YouTube should be banned everywhere on the world, and it's servers should be burned in nitrous-nitrogen induced flames and then smashed up with a 20 pound hammer...

nah..where would i upload all my youtube poop?

but seriously it's like taking the video game devs to court after the kid says he played like GTA before murdering someone. ridiculous, pointless, and pursued by idiots.
ugh, lol

312.4.2008 0:11

I bet all of their parents are as stupid as them...

412.4.2008 0:15

youtube has done itself a favor in not removing that content would they have it would've been hell to prove who did what.

Why teenagers need voilence is beyond me, you want voilence join the marines, you'll kill so much you'd want to die yourself.

im 19 this is just stupid, if it was me id beat the living shi7 otta'em for be'in so Stupid.

send em to prison no bond, thats were they need to be.

512.4.2008 3:15

whats with the girls nowadays they raise more hell than the boys

612.4.2008 3:40

Originally posted by ZoSoIV:
whats with the girls nowadays they raise more hell than the boys
penis envy?

712.4.2008 3:41
fgamer
Inactive

Poeple need to stop thinking that Youtube can actually police the whole site out of millions of videos and take every offensive one down. Anyways, those girls should definately get the booked thrown at them for such a violent crazy senseless attack! And they knocked her unconscious...talk about getting your brain rattled!

812.4.2008 10:31

I posted above that YouTube should be banned and destroyed for the sole reason that I actually KNOW people that do stupid stunts, senseless attacks and stupid-dangerous jokes JUST TO POST THEM ON YOUTUBE AND BE WATCHED BY MILLIONS...In my opinion if YouTube never existed, most of these "accidents" or "stupidness", (call it whatever you like) would've never existed. It's like MySpace and rapists...one thing leads to another...it's just stupid. But do whatever the hell you want, thats what I always say...

912.4.2008 10:55

Originally posted by DSWarrior:
I posted above that YouTube should be banned and destroyed for the sole reason that I actually KNOW people that do stupid stunts, senseless attacks and stupid-dangerous jokes JUST TO POST THEM ON YOUTUBE AND BE WATCHED BY MILLIONS...In my opinion if YouTube never existed, most of these "accidents" or "stupidness", (call it whatever you like) would've never existed. It's like MySpace and rapists...one thing leads to another...it's just stupid. But do whatever the hell you want, thats what I always say...
"Post hoc ergo propter hoc"

Sorry friend, but I think that is one feeble, lame argument...
Same as if cars didn't exist, people would not drive drunk and kill innocents...so ban on auto making or liquor manufacturing because there are numbnuts walking and driving around with shits for brains!

If guns didn't exist, murderers would not shoot and kill innocents...bull $#!t, guns don't kill people, people with no conscience kill people!
Ban McDonalds for people becoming mortally obese, sue the cigarette companies for people getting lung cancer...Give me freakin' break!

If those crazy b3otc#e$ didn't put the video on Youtube, probably no one would've known of what really happened. They are mental and stupid, getting caught on Youtube was a good thing. Videos of violence, people beating and killing each other were up circulating on the net before Youtube was even a project on paper.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 12 Apr 2008 @ 11:03

1012.4.2008 11:50

Quote:
Originally posted by ZoSoIV:
whats with the girls nowadays they raise more hell than the boys
penis envy?
hehehehe

1112.4.2008 12:43

My kid tends to get picked on a little in the neighborhood, but I tell you if THAT happened what happened to that girl I would stalk all those kids one by one and personally knock-out each one of those little bastards.

1212.4.2008 13:52

cyprusrom , couldn't agree with you more buddy !!

1312.4.2008 14:09

We have become a world society that knows not of right and wrong, nor of good and bad, just self gratification (arrogant pride).We have raised a generation of moral less and immoral people. The liberal progressives have achieved their end result. We are in the dharma ending age. It is not too late to reverse this trend. But it needs to start now.


"The flimsier the product,the higher the price"
Ferengi 82nd rule of aqusition


1412.4.2008 14:16

Originally posted by iluvendo:
We have become a world society that knows not of right and wrong, nor of good and bad, just self gratification (arrogant pride).We have raised a generation of moral less and immoral people. The liberal progressives have achieved their end result. We are in the dharma ending age. It is not too late to reverse this trend. But it needs to start now.

That wont happen, the goverment has seen to that. you cant Dissiplin
like you use too use to be if you even said somthing wrong you mother or father would backhand you.

nope now we have to put them in time out, or slap there rist Cause if we even touch them for stealing thats wrong.

its sad but the goverment has developed agence's that tells us how to raise or children.

1512.4.2008 14:21

What really gets me sick is when you hear their parents backing them up. One mother said the victim should be blamed for writing trash about the girlsn myspace. "She should'nt unless she had the guts to back it up."

Yea, like that really warrants a 6 on 1 attack. And if that girl had fought back, she would have been jumped by the rest. On myspace, the girl used words and hurt nobody. She did not deserve what she got.

I hope those girls get buried in prison, but i have a strange feeling their sentence won't be good enough.

1612.4.2008 14:31

Originally posted by gnovak1:
What really gets me sick is when you hear their parents backing them up. One mother said the victim should be blamed for writing trash about the girlsn myspace. "She should'nt unless she had the guts to back it up."

Yea, like that really warrants a 6 on 1 attack. And if that girl had fought back, she would have been jumped by the rest. On myspace, the girl used words and hurt nobody. She did not deserve what she got.

I hope those girls get buried in prison, but i have a strange feeling their sentence won't be good enough.
Exactly.

really pathitic would i have been in a attack like that my parents would have seen me off to prison, after beating the living crap otta me for being so stupid.

the root of the problim is this man about 60 saying that he nows how a teenager thinks well he dosen't.

We also live in a world were there is a complicated term for every thing that is human and pills for all of it.

ADHD or ADD are fine examples of excuses of human behavor that has been labled bad, ones hyper the other is just slow to catch on to things.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 12 Apr 2008 @ 14:32

1713.4.2008 9:18

"Post hoc ergo propter hoc"

Sorry friend, but I think that is one feeble, lame argument...
Same as if cars didn't exist, people would not drive drunk and kill innocents...so ban on auto making or liquor manufacturing because there are numbnuts walking and driving around with shits for brains!

If guns didn't exist, murderers would not shoot and kill innocents...bull $#!t, guns don't kill people, people with no conscience kill people!
Ban McDonalds for people becoming mortally obese, sue the cigarette companies for people getting lung cancer...Give me freakin' break!

If those crazy b3otc#e$ didn't put the video on Youtube, probably no one would've known of what really happened. They are mental and stupid, getting caught on Youtube was a good thing. Videos of violence, people beating and killing each other were up circulating on the net before Youtube was even a project on paper.


Are you mad?...Cars, macdonalds, alcohol and so on serve for a purpose...obviously when abused they all can be dangerous. But sites as youtube or myspace don't serve for nothing else than raising trouble among people...Obviously they're supposed to be "good and entertaining sites" BUT people easily abuse them and start doing stupidities just to be watched or read by other people....

1813.4.2008 10:20

Originally posted by DSWarrior:


But sites as youtube or myspace don't serve for nothing else than raising trouble among people...Obviously they're supposed to be "good and entertaining sites"
BUT people easily abuse them and start doing stupidities just to be watched or read by other people....
Then shouldn't abusers be blamed? Why blame the abused?

1913.4.2008 11:04
zorb43
Inactive

Originally posted by fgamer:
Poeple need to stop thinking that Youtube can actually police the whole site out of millions of videos and take every offensive one down. Anyways, those girls should definately get the booked thrown at them for such a violent crazy senseless attack! And they knocked her unconscious...talk about getting your brain rattled!
That is true ... But they might have been on drugs and therefore did not know what they were doing ... So you really can't blame them.

2013.4.2008 11:11

Originally posted by fgamer:
...That is true ... But they might have been on drugs and therefore did not know what they were doing ... So you really can't blame them.
I hope you are kidding, and that was a sarcastic comment...!! An excuse would be being schizophrenic, having epilepsy, even being physically possessed by devil can pass as an excuse:~)...but being on drugs,LOL, who forced those drugs on them? Their parent? The neighbors? The cops?

Or maybe we should forget about the attackers, forget about youtube, and lets blame the Columbian drug cartel:~)!
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 13 Apr 2008 @ 11:11

2113.4.2008 13:00

Originally posted by DSWarrior:
YouTube should be banned everywhere on the world, and it's servers should be burned in nitrous-nitrogen induced flames and then smashed up with a 20 pound hammer...

No that should be TV, youtube has better sht on it besides I like my youtube page
http://www.youtube.com/user/ZippyDSM

:P

I just wish YU would have better quality....

2213.4.2008 13:01

freaking multi post....

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 13 Apr 2008 @ 13:08

2313.4.2008 13:02

freaking multi post....

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 13 Apr 2008 @ 13:09

2413.4.2008 13:03

freaking multi post....

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 13 Apr 2008 @ 13:08

2513.4.2008 14:20

Quote:
"Post hoc ergo propter hoc"

Sorry friend, but I think that is one feeble, lame <http://www.afterdawn.com/software/audio_software/audio_encoders/lame_mp3_encoder.cfm> argument...
Same as if cars <http://www.blasteroids.com/games/details.cfm/cars> didn't exist, people would not drive drunk and kill innocents...so ban on auto making or liquor manufacturing because there are numbnuts walking and driving around with shits for brains!

If guns didn't exist, murderers would not shoot and kill innocents...bull $#!t, guns don't kill people, people with no conscience kill people!
Ban McDonalds for people becoming mortally obese, sue the cigarette companies for people getting lung cancer...Give me freakin' break!

If those crazy b3otc#e$ didn't put the video on Youtube, probably no one would've known of what really happened. They are mental and stupid, getting caught on Youtube was a good thing. Videos of violence, people beating and killing each other were up circulating on the net before Youtube was even a project on paper.
Quote:

cyprusrom Is so Right On!

2613.4.2008 15:52
zorb43
Inactive

Quote:
Originally posted by fgamer:
...That is true ... But they might have been on drugs and therefore did not know what they were doing ... So you really can't blame them.
I hope you are kidding, and that was a sarcastic comment...!! An excuse would be being schizophrenic, having epilepsy, even being physically possessed by devil can pass as an excuse:~)...but being on drugs,LOL, who forced those drugs on them? Their parent? The neighbors? The cops?

Or maybe we should forget about the attackers, forget about youtube, and lets blame the Columbian drug cartel:~)!
Hahaha ... Yes of course ... But even if they were possessed or schizoid they should be locked regaurdless up so that they could not commit the same crime again ...

2713.4.2008 16:10

LOL! Locked up, but since they cannot be locked forever, should be "fixed", so they cannot reproduce in the future!!

2814.4.2008 5:48

Is there much point Youtube etc removing the video when lots of news sites have it streaming in the news article anyway?

Glad the girls are being tried as adults though.

2914.4.2008 9:52
Icanbe
Inactive

Originally posted by iluvendo:
We have become a world society that knows not of right and wrong, nor of good and bad, just self gratification (arrogant pride).We have raised a generation of moral less and immoral people. The liberal progressives have achieved their end result. We are in the dharma ending age. It is not too late to reverse this trend. But it needs to start now.

Exactly and Amen.

Hate to say this, but I look around at the world and think it's already too late, Greed and self gratification seem to be the order of the day.

I hope these stupid little idiots get what they deserve, but the sad part is some slick talking defense laywer will get them a minimum sentence or off completely.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 14 Apr 2008 @ 11:18

3014.4.2008 12:10

Originally posted by DSWarrior:
I posted above that YouTube should be banned and destroyed for the sole reason that I actually KNOW people that do stupid stunts, senseless attacks and stupid-dangerous jokes JUST TO POST THEM ON YOUTUBE AND BE WATCHED BY MILLIONS...In my opinion if YouTube never existed, most of these "accidents" or "stupidness", (call it whatever you like) would've never existed. It's like MySpace and rapists...one thing leads to another...it's just stupid. But do whatever the hell you want, thats what I always say...

3114.4.2008 12:13

I've been on this planet for 52 years and it is my experience that stupid people do stupid things no matter who is watching. There is no law against being stupid. There are laws against assault however and the fact that this is documented on video just makes it easier to convict the criminals.

3214.4.2008 12:50
goodswipe
Inactive

What's the problem with this? There's hundreds of other videos on YouTube showing the same stuff. Kids fighting each other and getting beat up. That chick didn't even catch a beating. That was more of a, "Hey, you're a big wuss, fight back!", I mean, she just sat there and did nothing. The media blew this way out of proportion. There wasn't anyone holding her captive. No one was not allowing her to leave. And if the beating was so bad, how was she able to stand there and talk with those retarded girls the whole time, after they where wailing on her?

In all my life, I've seen some pretty gruesome beat downs. Hell, I've got jumped before. I was expecting a whole lot more outa this. Not some school yard fight.

Originally posted by gnovak1:


Yea, like that really warrants a 6 on 1 attack. And if that girl had fought back, she would have been jumped by the rest. On myspace, the girl used words and hurt nobody. She did not deserve what she got.


Maybe you guys saw a different video then what I saw. I saw two maybe three girls hitting her. And it wasn't all at once. Only one girl actually smacked her around and she should be the one punished to the fullest extent of the law. So whats up with this 6 on 1 crap? Sorry, but if someone is trying to hurt me, I don't care what the circumstances are, I fight back or get the hell out of the situation.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 14 Apr 2008 @ 12:55

3314.4.2008 13:29

Originally posted by goodswipe:
What's the problem with this? There's hundreds of other videos on YouTube showing the same stuff. Kids fighting each other and getting beat up. That chick didn't even catch a beating. That was more of a, "Hey, you're a big wuss, fight back!", I mean, she just sat there and did nothing. The media blew this way out of proportion. There wasn't anyone holding her captive. No one was not allowing her to leave. And if the beating was so bad, how was she able to stand there and talk with those retarded girls the whole time, after they where wailing on her?

In all my life, I've seen some pretty gruesome beat downs. Hell, I've got jumped before. I was expecting a whole lot more outa this. Not some school yard fight.

Originally posted by gnovak1:


Yea, like that really warrants a 6 on 1 attack. And if that girl had fought back, she would have been jumped by the rest. On myspace, the girl used words and hurt nobody. She did not deserve what she got.


Maybe you guys saw a different video then what I saw. I saw two maybe three girls hitting her. And it wasn't all at once. Only one girl actually smacked her around and she should be the one punished to the fullest extent of the law. So whats up with this 6 on 1 crap? Sorry, but if someone is trying to hurt me, I don't care what the circumstances are, I fight back or get the hell out of the situation.
The whole video was not released. There is a lot of video we did not see so we dont know what happened for those 30 minutes.

Fight back? Not everyone knows how to fight. She tried to leave and they wouldn't let her. When you have a room full of girls bent on hurting you, fighting back may not be the wise thing to do.

If you just watch someone getting beat up and don't try to stop it , you are just as guilty as the ones who are hitting her. You should be punished also. That's my point.

You say you saw 2 or 3 girls punching yet you say only one should be punished? So the others didn't hit her that much which is why they shouldn't be punished?

Someone should've called the Police. They all should be punished and i hope they are.

3414.4.2008 15:19
goodswipe
Inactive

Quote:

You say you saw 2 or 3 girls punching yet you say only one should be punished? So the others didn't hit her that much which is why they shouldn't be punished?
Sorry, maybe I should have been a bit more clear. I meant that girl that did most of the damage should be punished more then the others. And that's how the law works, so we will see.

Not knowing how to fight? Well, with me that's pretty much an instinct, and it seems like it would kick in for anyone else that is in danger. Defend yourself. I'm not saying she should have done some Judo chops or some flying squirrel kicks, not everyone knows how to box are do some form of karate. Seems like she would have at least tried to bite some of those girls or claw their eyes out!

3514.4.2008 16:11

Some of this is absolutely ridicoulous. There's no one to blame other than the parties involved.

They plotted to keep the girl against her will, physically harm her, and threaten her with more physical abuse if she told anyone.

Blaming You Tube is once again attempting to sidestep the underlying cause, the veracity of the situation, and careless if not sadistic nature of the girls who plotted and carried this out.

The fact that they even wanted to take a video of it only goes to show how sadistic these girls really are. Attempting to blame someone, anyone or any entity for their actions is avoiding the root of the problem, in my humble opinion.



3614.4.2008 16:14
goodswipe
Inactive

7th, if you would really love to hear my idea about what should be done with this situation, pm me, it might get a bit graphic! ;)

3714.4.2008 16:27

PM'ed

This kind of crap really pisses me off. Seems like everyone needs someone to blame.

McDonalds made my kid fat.

Cigarettes were too addictive.

She looked 18. Etc, etc.

It's all BS. Take some damn responsibility for your actions. See the situation for what it is.

Geez, people piss me off.



3814.4.2008 16:34
goodswipe
Inactive

Quote:
She looked 18. Etc, etc.

LMFAO! Classic...

3914.4.2008 21:07

In other news the Greatest Person to say get real, bails out those Found guilty.

Yep you gest right Dr.Phil, that moron needs to be shot for bailing em out. Dr. Phil, i hope they lure you into a room and beat the living H3ll otta you.

4014.4.2008 21:22

Originally posted by 7thsinger:
PM'ed

This kind of crap really pisses me off. Seems like everyone needs someone to blame.

McDonalds made my kid fat.

Cigarettes were too addictive.

She looked 18. Etc, etc.

It's all BS. Take some damn responsibility for your actions. See the situation for what it is.

Geez, people piss me off.
Amen brother! You're in "the circle of trust"!


Piss me off, and I Will ignore You!

4114.4.2008 21:35
zorb43
Inactive

Quote:
Quote:

You say you saw 2 or 3 girls punching yet you say only one should be punished? So the others didn't hit her that much which is why they shouldn't be punished?
Sorry, maybe I should have been a bit more clear. I meant that girl that did most of the damage should be punished more then the others. And that's how the law works, so we will see.

Not knowing how to fight? Well, with me that's pretty much an instinct, and it seems like it would kick in for anyone else that is in danger. Defend yourself. I'm not saying she should have done some Judo chops or some flying squirrel kicks, not everyone knows how to box are do some form of karate. Seems like she would have at least tried to bite some of those girls or claw their eyes out!
Too bad she didn't have a gun ... She could have and should have blown their brains out ...THAT would have served them right!

4214.4.2008 22:08

Originally posted by cyprusrom:
Originally posted by 7thsinger:
PM'ed

This kind of crap really pisses me off. Seems like everyone needs someone to blame.

McDonalds made my kid fat.

Cigarettes were too addictive.

She looked 18. Etc, etc.

It's all BS. Take some damn responsibility for your actions. See the situation for what it is.

Geez, people piss me off.
Amen brother! You're in "the circle of trust"!
I won't break that circle bro!


4315.4.2008 1:29

count me in too!!





Antec 1200 Full-Tower Case/Thermaltake 750-Watt PS/ASUS SABERTOOTH Z77 LGA 1155 Intel Z77 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Mobo/Western Digital Black WD5003AZEX 500GB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" HDD/NVIDIA GeForce 8800GTX 768MB 384-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Support Video Card/CORSAIR DOMINATOR PLATINUM 16GB (2 x 8GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 /Intel Core i7-3770K Ivy Bridge 3.5GHz (3.9GHz Turbo) LGA 1155 77W Quad-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics/CORSAIR Hydro Series H80 (CWCH80) High Performance Liquid CPU Cooler/3-Plextor PX-810SA Sata Drives/Asus IPS 27"PB278Q Monitor 2560 x 1440 resolution,5ms respone time/OS Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64-bit

4415.4.2008 11:32
goodswipe
Inactive

You guys talking about the Burns circle of trust?

4515.4.2008 11:37




Lol.



4615.4.2008 13:27
goodswipe
Inactive

I have nipples Greg, could you milk me?

4715.4.2008 13:54

Originally posted by zorb43:
Quote:
Quote:

You say you saw 2 or 3 girls punching yet you say only one should be punished? So the others didn't hit her that much which is why they shouldn't be punished?
Sorry, maybe I should have been a bit more clear. I meant that girl that did most of the damage should be punished more then the others. And that's how the law works, so we will see.

Not knowing how to fight? Well, with me that's pretty much an instinct, and it seems like it would kick in for anyone else that is in danger. Defend yourself. I'm not saying she should have done some Judo chops or some flying squirrel kicks, not everyone knows how to box are do some form of karate. Seems like she would have at least tried to bite some of those girls or claw their eyes out!
Too bad she didn't have a gun ... She could have and should have blown their brains out ...THAT would have served them right!
I would look around the room and just grab anything i can find and just start swinging.

4815.4.2008 13:59
goodswipe
Inactive

Exactly....

4915.4.2008 17:01

people are stupid, youtube is stupid and any other site showing the same videos is stupider...burn youtube in a flamming abyss!!!


DS Warrior ! ! !

5016.4.2008 1:36

hell all the news channels are showing it over and over too





Antec 1200 Full-Tower Case/Thermaltake 750-Watt PS/ASUS SABERTOOTH Z77 LGA 1155 Intel Z77 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Mobo/Western Digital Black WD5003AZEX 500GB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" HDD/NVIDIA GeForce 8800GTX 768MB 384-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Support Video Card/CORSAIR DOMINATOR PLATINUM 16GB (2 x 8GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 /Intel Core i7-3770K Ivy Bridge 3.5GHz (3.9GHz Turbo) LGA 1155 77W Quad-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics/CORSAIR Hydro Series H80 (CWCH80) High Performance Liquid CPU Cooler/3-Plextor PX-810SA Sata Drives/Asus IPS 27"PB278Q Monitor 2560 x 1440 resolution,5ms respone time/OS Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64-bit

5116.4.2008 2:48

Well, then "burn them in a flamming abyss too"! Damn'em to hell:~)LOL!



Piss me off, and I Will ignore You!

5216.4.2008 4:02

Originally posted by cyprusrom:
Well, then "burn them in a flamming abyss too"!
Quote:
Damn'em to hell
:~)LOL!

That's God's job.

"The flimsier the product,the higher the price"
Ferengi 82nd rule of aqusition


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