AfterDawn: Tech news

US HDTV owners don't want Blu-ray

Written by Andre Yoskowitz (Google+) @ 03 Jun 2008 16:40 User comments (84)

US HDTV owners don't want Blu-ray According to an NPD report, only 9 percent of US HDTV owners plan to buy a Blu-ray disc player in the next six months.
The survey by NPD was carried out in the middle of March, after Blu-ray killed off the rival HD DVD format. Although sentiments may have changed in the months since the survey was taken, I would assume the numbers are still pretty accurate, considering reports of Blu-ray sales show declining results.

The survey also showed that about 40 million US homes have at least one HDTV and that 9 percent amounts to a lowly 3.6 million units.

There was however, more interesting numbers to note. NPD added that only 45 percent of HDTV owners had even heard of Blu-ray or HD DVD meaning that 22 million HDTV owners were not even familiar with HD optical formats.

For their similar survey in 2007, NPD found that 65 percent of HDTV owners had not heard of the formats. A 10 percent increase over the course of a year? Clearly Blu-ray is not doing something right.

Most of the people surveyed also noted that they were more than happy with DVD picture quality and HD upscaling and that for now, Blu-ray was simply not worth it. However, of the people surveyed who had already bought into Blu-ray, 80 percent said their next purchases will be BDs rather than DVDs. Picture quality was the main reasoning behind that.


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84 user comments

13.6.2008 16:51
tripplite
Inactive

heretics !!!1 kill the non-believers!!!!

BD-R alllll the way:)

whats this? you can't afford a BD-R player??? well tough luck.....the BD-R community is for the elite of society only.....



......come on im just playing around......its a nobrainer!!! har...har...

23.6.2008 16:52

Quote:
Most of the people surveyed also noted that they were more than happy with DVD picture quality and HD upscaling and that for now, Blu-ray was simply not worth it
.



Majority of people are happy with sd dvd or upconverted dvd
So Toshiba may just be correct with their Super def 960 dvd (if they can get the price right)






Quote:
However, of the people surveyed who had already bought into Blu-ray, 80 percent said their next purchases will be BDs rather than DVDs. Picture quality was the main reasoning behind that.



High def (BD and HD DVD) may turn out to be a niche market

33.6.2008 17:09

Quote:
The survey also showed that about 40 million US homes have at least one HDTV and that 9 percent amounts to a lowly 3.6 million units.
3.6 Million for a format that's only 2 years old this year is actually a good number.

Consider this:

The US installed base of DVD video players the 1st few years after launch:

Quote:
1997 - 0.2 million
1998 - 0.7 million
1999 - 1.4 million
2000 - 2.3 million
2001 - 3.6 million

The installed base of DVD video players will grow at a snail's pace through 2001, trailing the penetration of DVD drives in personal computers, predicts a Yankee Group study entitled "DVD: A Format Under Fire."

The report blames consumer confusion over formats for the stunted home digital video player market.
DVD and BluRay - "It's deja vu all over again."

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080603/latu076.html?.v=101
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Jun 2008 @ 17:11

43.6.2008 17:10

Quote:
NPD added that only 45 percent of HDTV owners had even heard of Blu-ray or HD DVD meaning that 22 million HDTV owners were not even familiar with HD optical formats.
People are going to say no to a format thats still new & cost is still high but what do you expect them to say if they don't know what the hell they are buying.Let not forget it took DVD 3 years to reach mass market because of high prices.BDA has granted licenses to Chinese manufacturers this is going to be huge for year three because right now if you compare Blu-Ray growth to DVD in year two Blu-Ray clearly has a major advantage.DVD had no growth for three years & people said the same thing then that they didn't want DVD i expect to see the same thing to happen with Blu-Ray.Consumer not going to have much a choice if the industry make the shift like they did with DVD customers had no choice but to move to DVD.How little people forget this.

53.6.2008 17:44

The US market doesn't care about quality they just care about trendy crap and that's why they're all getting LCD tv's. They could care less what media they put through it as long as they can say they have an HDTV.

Besides that they're just surveying pre-existing HDTV owners who haven't yet gotten a bluray player, meaning they're just asking people who obviously already have no interest in the HD media feeds (or are still HD-DVD loyal for whatever reason); if they took a less restricted survey the results would be higher.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Jun 2008 @ 17:47

63.6.2008 17:48

Or, Toshiba may just have given sd dvd a new lease on life with super def dvd 960. People already have the software (and new software dvd are just $15 ea), so if Toshiba can get the price right on the players, it may just give BD a real run for the money.

OK,OK
no True dolby
no True DTS

but seriously, how many of us have DTS decoders and a high quality enough surround sound system to really realize the higher quality encoded sound?

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Jun 2008 @ 17:50

"The flimsier the product,the higher the price"
Ferengi 82nd rule of aqusition


73.6.2008 18:01

Totally agree with you iluvendo, also I have to point that the numbers provided by eatsushi were predictions made back in January 1998, which don't reflect the actual household penetration DVD had from 1999-2001, which was actually much larger than that.

In 1999 DVD's household penetration in U.S. homes alone was 3.550 million players (not 1.4 million as that article states) and by 2001 DVD's household penetration in U.S. homes was 16.662 million players (not 3.6 million)

Also note that VCR hardware penetration (VHS) in U.S. homes wasn't as high as DVD currently is, since in 2003 it reached its highest of 97 million U.S. households, meaning that back in 1997 VHS U.S. household penetration was lower than in 2003. In the other hand DVD hardware penetration in 2007 was 229 million in U.S. homes alone, meaning that roughly every house in U.S. has a DVD player at home.

Taking into consideration these numbers, you realize that DVD had a much larger U.S. household penetration, than Blu-ray is having currently, despite the fact that more people own HDTV sets than before in U.S.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Jun 2008 @ 20:10

83.6.2008 18:23

If people dont want blu-ray which is significanly better than DVD what makes people think they will want Toshiba's super def DVD?

Secondly how many consumers do you think will actually know about Toshiba's super def DVD? Hardly any consumers know about blu-ray as the article shows! With a format so close to dvd its probably going to pass consumers by!

93.6.2008 18:32

Originally posted by ematrix:
Totally agree with you iluvendo, also I have to point that the numbers provided by eatsushi were predictions made back in January 1998, which don't reflect the actual household prenetration DVD had from 1999-2001, which is actually much larger than that.

In 1999 DVD's household penetration in US homes alone was 3.550 million players (not 1.4 million as that article states) and by 2001 DVD's household penetration in US homes was 16.662 million players (not 3.6 million)
True, but the news item is also a prediction based on a survey.

Also note that for DVD you didn't have to upgrade your display. Each and every person who owned a TV was in the potential market pool. The potential market for BluRay is much smaller due to the HDTV requirement. So based on the figures you brought up you could say that adoption is going faster for BluRay:

1999 - 3.55 million players (2 years from launch)

2008 - 3.6 million units estimated (also 2 years from launch)

Panasonic PT-AE3000 1080p Projector//Carada 110" Criterion High Contrast Grey 16:9 Screen//Oppo BDP-83SE//Toshiba HD-XA2
Classe SSP800 Processor//Classe CA-5200 5 Channel Amplifier//Classe CA-2200 2 Channel Amplifier
Bowers & Wilkins 802D L-R/HTM 1D Center/SCMS Surrounds/JL Audio Fathom f113 x 2

103.6.2008 18:53

No, it actually going slower despite the fact that more people now own HDTV sets than before, as reported by NPD. You should read my previous post and you'll realize, that even so consumers weren't required to upgrade their TV sets in order to upgrade from VHS to DVD, the fact is that VHS hardware penetration was less than half, even at it's higgest point, than the current DVD hardware penetration.

Also those numbers provided by eatsushi came from an 1998 article, and they were predictions, not actual facts; while my numbers came from actual sales numbers on surveys provided by leading market research companies, such as DEG and NPD.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Jun 2008 @ 20:09

113.6.2008 18:58

This is the text of the actual NPD report:

The NPD Group: Consumer Awareness and Potential for Blu-ray Disc Devices Rising

Quote:
According to The NPD Group, a leading market research company, 45 percent of HDTV owners in the U.S. now claim to be familiar with Blu-ray Disc (BD), up from 35 percent in June 2007. And, while only 6 percent of all consumers surveyed said they plan to purchase a BD device in the next six months, NPD found purchase intent to be higher among the growing population of HDTV owners, boding well for the future of the format.

NPDís ď2008 Blu-ray Disc ReportĒ reveals that 9 percent of HDTV owners plan to buy a BD-capable player in the next six months. ďWith HDTVs now in approximately 40 million US households, that percentage translates to a pool of almost 4 million potential BD player buyers,Ē according to Russ Crupnick, entertainment industry analyst for NPD.
Like error5, pointed out - the 3.6 million US estimate for BluRay actually mirrors the number for DVD's second year.

It's also possible that the current sales push from Walmart could also increase the numbers in a new poll.

123.6.2008 19:12

Originally posted by ematrix:
No, it actually going slower despite the fact that more people now own HDTV sets than before, as reported by NPD. You should read my previous post and you'll realize, that even so consumers weren't required to upgrade their TV sets in order to upgrade from VHS to DVD, the fact is that VHS household penetration was less than half, even at it's higgest point, than the current DVD household penetration.
What error5 was doing was comparing household penetration 2 years into the format's lifespan:

DVD - 1999 - 3.55 million - actual numbers from you.

BD - 2008 - 3.6 million - estimated from the NPD survey.

Even though you're comparing actual numbers to estimates you can see how people can conclude that Bluray isn't doing too bad. (see NPD's actual text in my post above.)

Quote:
Also those numbers provided by eatsushi came from an 1998 article, and they were predictions, not actual facts; while my numbers came from actual sales numbers on surveys provided by DEG.
Actually, I understand eatsushi's point. I think he's trying to say that the predictions ten years apart are very similar:
1998: DVD adoption is going slow
2008: BluRay adoption is going slow
...thus the "deja vu" comment.
(Right eatsushi??)

133.6.2008 19:42

Originally posted by juankerr:
It's also possible that the current sales push from Walmart could also increase the numbers in a new poll.
I notice this like a week ago at my Wal-Mart they have a Sony 1080p LCD hooked up to a Blu-Ray player & a dvd player hooked into the other side it spit screen to show the differents between the two with the same movie playing at the same time its a very nice setup by wal-mart.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Jun 2008 @ 19:43

143.6.2008 19:50

Juankerr, it's actually shows that Blu-ray it's going to have a harder time than DVD had a decade ago. Internationally, Blu-ray still has a lot further to go than it does in the United States. But was the article states is that less than a tenth of current U.S. homes that own a HDTV are considering getting Blu-ray, but most of the people surveyed expressed that they were more than happy with upscaling DVD and that for now, Blu-ray was simply not worth it.

153.6.2008 19:51

Originally posted by NexGen76:
Originally posted by juankerr:
It's also possible that the current sales push from Walmart could also increase the numbers in a new poll.
I notice this like a week ago at my Wal-Mart they have a Sony 1080p LCD hooked up to a Blu-Ray player & a dvd player hooked into the other side it spit screen to show the differents between the two with the same movie playing at the same time its a very nice setup by wal-mart.

Question, is this this really Wal mart advertising a new product (to them), or is it that Wal Mart is doing this because of contractual obligations to the BD consortium ?

Please no laughing, afterall both Toshiba and Sony tried to buy off the movie studios.

"The flimsier the product,the higher the price"
Ferengi 82nd rule of aqusition


163.6.2008 19:58

Originally posted by ematrix:
Juankerr, it's actually shows that Blu-ray it's going to have a harder time than DVD had a decade ago. Internationally, Blu-ray still has a lot further to go than it does in the United States.
True. That's why the article further states:

Quote:
ďThe door is open for studios to feed the consumerís appetite for Blu-ray content, and we expect sales to increase, as prices for hardware and software moderate in the coming months,Ē Crupnick said. ďEven so it will take a concerted effort by manufacturers and retailers to ratchet awareness even further and convince all of those potential buyers of the superiority of Blu-ray Disc versus standard DVD.Ē
It's an uphill climb but the numbers so far are encouraging and the BDA's marketing machine is working full time:

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/14343.cfm

173.6.2008 19:59

Quote:
I notice this like a week ago at my Wal-Mart they have a Sony 1080p LCD hooked up to a Blu-Ray player & a dvd player hooked into the other side it spit screen to show the differents between the two with the same movie playing at the same time its a very nice setup by wal-mart.
Haha, I haven't seen this, but I do notice that Wal-Mart (and it's sister company Sam's Club) have HDTV displays, running content off of standard RCA cables! Typically it's only a new release DVD running, and it doesn't make a great argument for the displays. The best display I've seen is a PS3 running on a 1080p Sony display, though it was still using component cables!

The HDTV requirement will slow the growth of Blu-Ray, and because of it, DVD will continue to survive. Keep in mind, most households only needed to ditch their VCR and replace it with a DVD player a few years back. DVD's offered advantages akin to CD's, where you could instantly fast forward or rewind, plus DVD's take up less shelf space, which is critical to retailers as well as consumers.

If Blu-Ray can match the cost of DVD, then it should become a no brainer for HDTV owners. This is one spot HD-DVD had an advantage with using combo discs, which could be used in HD-DVD or DVD players. As it stands, most households only have 1 HDTV, so they would be purchasing a $25-30 BR disc to play in only one room of the house. I think this is the biggest disadvantage, and will be the reason why I will shy away from BR until prices drop to DVD-like levels.

183.6.2008 20:07

Originally posted by iluvendo:
Question, is this this really Wal mart advertising a new product (to them), or is it that Wal Mart is doing this because of contractual obligations to the BD consortium ?
Retail stores never give away special displays or endcaps. The product manufacturers pay for these.

BluRay endcaps and HDTV demos like the ones that you see at Walmart were paid for by the BD companies the same way that you pay for advertising. It's part of their promotional budget.

Added: Starting this weekend Walmart will give a $100 store gift card for any purchase of a BluRay player including the PS3. The Maganvox would practically cost you $198. If you predicted a sub $200 player this early in 2008 I would not have believed you.

Walmart's Father's Day BluRay Promotion
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Jun 2008 @ 20:17

193.6.2008 20:34

Quote:
Originally posted by iluvendo:
Question, is this this really Wal mart advertising a new product (to them), or is it that Wal Mart is doing this because of contractual obligations to the BD consortium ?
Retail stores never give away special displays or endcaps. The product manufacturers pay for these.

BluRay endcaps and HDTV demos like the ones that you see at Walmart were paid for by the BD companies the same way that you pay for advertising. It's part of their promotional budget.

Added: Starting this weekend Walmart will give a $100 store gift card for any purchase of a BluRay player including the PS3. The Maganvox would practically cost you $198. If you predicted a sub $200 player this early in 2008 I would not have believed you.

Walmart's Father's Day BluRay Promotion


How will they issues the 100 dollar gift card by mail or in store? I would love to pickup a second PS3 for 299.

203.6.2008 20:37

Originally posted by NexGen76:
How will they issues the 100 dollar gift card by mail or in store? I would love to pickup a second PS3 for 299.
Info from hddigest: the card is given to you at checkout and can be used right away.

Note: the PS3 promo started last weekend and is now extended to all BD players. You better hurry since a lot of posters reported that stocks were being depleted rapidly.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Jun 2008 @ 20:39

213.6.2008 20:54
fgamer
Inactive

Quote:
Originally posted by NexGen76:
How will they issues the 100 dollar gift card by mail or in store? I would love to pickup a second PS3 for 299.
Info from hddigest: the card is given to you at checkout and can be used right away.

Note: the PS3 promo started last weekend and is now extended to all BD players. You better hurry since a lot of posters reported that stocks were being depleted rapidly.
Will the PS3 still be under the $100 dollar gift card deal when they start the $100 giftcard Blu-ray player offer June 8-14TH?

223.6.2008 21:06

Originally posted by SProdigy:
The HDTV requirement will slow the growth of Blu-Ray, and because of it, DVD will continue to survive. Keep in mind, most households only needed to ditch their VCR and replace it with a DVD player a few years back. DVD's offered advantages akin to CD's, where you could instantly fast forward or rewind, plus DVD's take up less shelf space, which is critical to retailers as well as consumers.

If Blu-Ray can match the cost of DVD, then it should become a no brainer for HDTV owners. This is one spot HD-DVD had an advantage with using combo discs, which could be used in HD-DVD or DVD players. As it stands, most households only have 1 HDTV, so they would be purchasing a $25-30 BR disc to play in only one room of the house. I think this is the biggest disadvantage, and will be the reason why I will shy away from BR until prices drop to DVD-like levels.
Indeed HDTV requirement is slowing the growth of Blu-ray, and even so hasn't incouraged many HDTV owners to get Blu-ray, as the article states. Most U.S. households only have one HDTV set, and most of them are content with upscaling DVD, as well as those that can't afford or are unwilling to upgrade their equipment and movies.

But you mentioned the valid advantage of combo discs that Blu-ray has been reluctant to consider, which would benefit them in growing Blu-ray faster into consumer's acceptance, as well as manufactures, distributors and retail stores, since it will reduce production, distribution and storage costs, as well as increase sells of one sole edition that contained SD and HD (DVD and BD) versions of the film.

Combo discs would also benefit consumers greatly, since rather than buying SD and HD versions of the movie separatelly, you could get one sole edition knowing that you can play the movie on your DVD player and CRT TV, and by the time you finally buy a Blu-ray player and HDTV set, you already have the Blu-ray version.

233.6.2008 23:27
Saber9
Inactive

To me DVD is already obsolite. If it isn't on Blu ray it doesn't exist to me.

244.6.2008 1:04

Gee, where have I heard this before?
Oh, right. Just from...EVERYONE!
Sony blew it with their price gouging.
I'm waiting for the next big thing and so are all the people I know who weren't foolish enough to buy into Blu Ray.

254.6.2008 8:36

Originally posted by ematrix:
Combo discs would also benefit consumers greatly, since rather than buying SD and HD versions of the movie separatelly, you could get one sole edition knowing that you can play the movie on your DVD player and CRT TV, and by the time you finally buy a Blu-ray player and HDTV set, you already have the Blu-ray version.
JVC developed the DVD/BD combo disc but IIRC manufacturing problems prevented it from gaining ground.

The problems with the DVD/HD DVD combo format were also a big issue:

Commentary: Combo Discs - What Went Wrong?

Quote:
Quite simply, Combo discs are killing HD DVD. It's time to move past them. Consumers don't need them and certainly don't want to pay extra for them, only to find the discs seizing up in their players when they try to watch their newly-purchased movies. I am hereby officially pleading to the studios to give up this foolish scheme and make all future HD DVDs, whether new releases or catalog titles, just HD DVDs, without the Combo burden. Everyone will truly be better off if you do.


Originally posted by mspurloc:
I'm waiting for the next big thing and so are all the people I know who weren't foolish enough to buy into Blu Ray.
I just don't get this logic. If price is the issue, how sure are you that "the next big thing" will be inexpensive?

All new technology is expensive. There's years of research and development costs to recoup. I'm sure "the next best thing" will be out of reach to the general public cost-wise for at least several years after launch.

264.6.2008 14:20

Originally posted by juankerr:
Originally posted by ematrix:


Originally posted by mspurloc:
I'm waiting for the next big thing and so are all the people I know who weren't foolish enough to buy into Blu Ray.
I just don't get this logic. If price is the issue, how sure are you that "the next big thing" will be inexpensive?

All new technology is expensive. There's years of research and development costs to recoup. I'm sure "the next best thing" will be out of reach to the general public cost-wise for at least several years after launch.
Price is NOT the issue.
GOUGING is the issue.
When your prices are lower due to competition and you raise those prices the second you no longer have competition, you are gouging.
I have never had a problem buying expensive tech when it's good technology and I have a good feeling about the company and its partners.

I no longer have this feeling about Sony or about Blu Ray. I think Sony's been infected by American business philosophy and Blu Ray is already obsolete, or should be. I can only judge them by their actions, and by that measure they are no longer people I want to do business with, unless they come up with tech I can't do without, and even then only at a fair market price.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 04 Jun 2008 @ 14:21

274.6.2008 14:43

Originally posted by mspurloc:
Price is NOT the issue.
GOUGING is the issue.
It's not gouging when you lower the price for the holiday season and then go back to its regular price once the holiday shopping season is done. We see it all the time.

Let me explain to you what happened to the pricing of the Sony BDP-S300:

June 2007 - BDP-S300 was released with an MSRP of $499

Dec 2007 - BDP-S300 price drop to $399 for the holiday season

Early 2008 - BDP-S300 price goes back up to its usual $499 MSRP. It was just a coincidence that Toshiba announced the death of HD DVD around the time that the price went back up to it's usual level.

June 2008 - BDP-S300 price now $388 at Walmart. With the Father's Day $100 store coupon, this will be down to $288 starting this weekend.

Someone please show me where the price gouging happened.

284.6.2008 14:49
bizlbarry
Inactive

i am very disappointed with the quality of No Country for Old Men running on my PS3 to my 1080p TV. Not only does it have letterbox bars, but the picture is only slightly better than DVD... nothing close to the amazing (fullscreen) shots you see when you watch a blu-ray display at best buy or something. i hope it was just a fluke, but im feeling that blu-ray is over-hyped and the vast majority of movie releases will also be disappointing. what's the deal?

294.6.2008 14:53

Originally posted by bizlbarry:
i am very disappointed with the quality of No Country for Old Men running on my PS3 to my 1080p TV.
Read the review on highdef digest:

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1296/nocountryforoldmen.html

Quote:
HD Video Quality - 5 out of 5 stars

The Video: Sizing Up the Picture


Donít be deterred by its subdued palette -- ĎNo Country for Old Mení features one of the finest, filmic Blu-ray transfers Iíve encountered. Naturalistic colors and skintones are the lifeblood of this 1080p/AVC encode, injecting a level of authenticity into the production that truly elevates the film. The bright, desert exteriors didnít reveal any blooming, and the bleak nighttime shots of the city werenít hindered by crushing. In fact, shadow delineation is incredibly precise considering the fact that the transferís blacks are inky and its contrast is comfortably stark. Detail is a bit stealthy, but that has more to do with the basic costuming and set design than any technical deficiency. Itís a cinch to spot sharp facial details, clothing textures, and blowing dust. Jump to the scene in which sheriff Bell examines the site of the botched heroin deal -- notice the crisp brush in the distance, the rustled hair on the dead dog, and the tiny pebbles lying in the dirt at his feet. Simply stunning.

There are no hints of edge enhancement, artifacting, or compression issues to be found. Compared to the standard DVD, the Blu-ray edition is a completely different animal -- itís cleaner, more vibrant, and far more stable. If I have any nitpick, it's that grain spikes a bit during some of the darker evening shots, but this can be attributed to the original print, rather than to the Blu-ray transfer. All in all, ĎNo Country for Old Mení looks exceptional, matching the Coensí intensity and Deakins' skilled cinematography at every turn.
You may need to have your HDTV calibrated.

BTW, the "letterbox bars" are normal - the film was shot in 2.35:1 aspect ratio.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 04 Jun 2008 @ 16:01

304.6.2008 16:06

I believe the next big thing will be Video On Demand and/or digital copies of the film. Cable, satellite and video game consoles are all pushing this forward, much in the same way that the iPod paved the path for digital music.

CD's are now the dinosaur, though I know alot of people would rather have a physical product, rather than DRM riddled digital files that may be rented for a time period and/or used only one device.

If the media mafia would get over the fear of piracy, their profits could flourish under the right digital business model. Considering that digital copies are starting to be included with standard DVD's, they are at least heading in the right direction, and the consumer can have their cake and eat it too.

I prefer the idea of not having to circumvent copy protection and re-encode a film to be played portably on my iPod. Having a digital copy at my fingertips saves me time that could be otherwise used watching a film.

314.6.2008 16:33

I'm not very much into Digital Copies, mainly because I don't own an iPod and I dislike watching movies on a PC, but I recognize the positive aproach of including a Digital Copy with DVD releases, at least is a viable option, which comes handy for those who choose to use them.

Then I wonder if instead of providing the Digital Copy, they could have used that disc space to assemble the DVD release, so they could provide a richer video and audio for the movies, or more extra material. Yet I dislike their DRM use restrictions for these Digital Copies, such as placing an expiration date, which contradicts the sole purpose of offering it, so you can use it freely at your own choosing and convinience.

I think what mspurloc means by waiting for the next big thing, is for a non optical disc video format, that could justify spending money in upgrading equipment and movies, rather than buying into Blu-ray. I for one agree with him.

juankerr, i'm not arguying that HD-DVD/DVD combos had issues, but at least was explored and note that it was on its early stages, as well as Blu-ray, and both cases presented playback problems which both sides were addressing at that time.

I don't want to extend this into a heated discussion, when this is clearly offtopic from the subject in the article, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just meant that combo discs would have the potential to fortify Blu-ray, as people could get future-proof combos when buying the SD version, and getting the HD version as a bonus, even if they don't have the equipment to view them yet.

I can understand that anyone that already has the equipment to view Blu-ray movies, wouldn't see the relevance of getting the DVD version as well, and spending a few more dollars for the combo, than what they would pay for the Blu-ray only version, but as SProdigy mentioned most U.S. homes that have HDTV only have one set, but most likely will still have several CRT TVs and DVD players, and having a Blu-ray/DVD combo would came handy, and actually people would be saving money since it would cost more to buy a DVD version and a Blu-ray version separatelly.

Finally eatsushi, I don't know how many times I have to say this before it's recognized, but your situation is much different than for those of us living in the rest of the world, good for you that you're able to go to your local Wal-Mart or online to Amazon to purchase movies and players at such prices, but the rest of us don't get such benefits, since we get to pay full price for these products, either on our local stores or by importing them with the implied added costs.

We should be objective and don't allow ourselves to measure Blu-ray success solely on what it's happening within U.S., we have to think what it's happening globally, and unless they stop gouging prices in other places, such as some countries in Europe, Asia, and all of Latin America, then Blu-ray wont have the strengh necessary to became a mainstream format.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 04 Jun 2008 @ 17:01

324.6.2008 16:43

Originally posted by ematrix:
I think what mspurloc means by waiting for the next big thing, is for a non optical disc video format, that could justify spending money in upgrading equipment and movies, rather than buying into Blu-ray. I for one agree with him.

juankerr, i'm not arguying that HD-DVD/DVD combos had issues, but at least was explored and note that it was on its early stages, as well as Blu-ray, and both cases presented playback problems which both sides were addressing at that time.

I don't want to extend this into a heated discussion, when this is clearly offtopic from the subject in the article, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just meant that combo discs would have the potential to fortify Blu-ray, as people could get future-proof combos when buying the SD version, and getting the HD version as a bonus, even if they don't have the equipment to view them yet.

I can understand that anyone that already has the equipment to view Blu-ray movies, wouldn't see the relevance of getting the DVD version as well, and spending a few more dollars for the combo, than what they would pay for the Blu-ray only version, but as SProdigy mentioned most U.S. homes that have HDTV only have one set, but most likely will still have several CRT TVs and DVD players, and having a Blu-ray/DVD combo would came handy, and actually people would be saving money since it would cost more to buy a DVD version and a Blu-ray version separatelly.

Quote:
Finally eatsushi, I don't know how many times I have to say this before it's recognized, but your situation is much different than for those of us living in the rest of the world, good for you that you're able to go to your local Wal-Mart or online to Amazon to purchase movies and players at such prices, but the rest of us don't get such benefits, since we get to pay full price for these products, either on our local stores or by importing them with the implied added costs.

We should be objective and don't allow ourselves to measure Blu-ray success solely on what it's happening within U.S., we have to think what it's happening globally, and unless they stop gouging prices in other places, such as some countries in Europe, Asia, and all of Latin America, then Blu-ray wont have the strengh necessary to became a mainstream format.




Well said, well said !!!!!

"The flimsier the product,the higher the price"
Ferengi 82nd rule of aqusition


334.6.2008 17:11

Originally posted by ematrix:
I think what mspurloc means by waiting for the next big thing, is for a non optical disc video format, that could justify spending money in upgrading equipment and movies, rather than buying into Blu-ray. I for one agree with him.
My point still stands. If you're waiting for a non-optical disc format as the "next big thing," how sure are you that the prices at launch will be cheaper than what we have now. New technology is always more expensive at launch. Prices then come down as the technology and the market mature.

Quote:
I don't want to extend this into a heated discussion, when this is clearly offtopic from the subject in the article, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just meant that combo discs would have the potential to fortify Blu-ray, as people could get future-proof combos when buying the SD version, and getting the HD version as a bonus, even if they don't have the equipment to view them yet.
IIRC the problem with combo on BluRay is they couldn't make it work. I think it was the manufacturing or duplicating process that was the problem. Add to that the issues with the HD DVD combo and they just decided to abandon the project since it could introduce more problems.

Quote:
... but as SProdigy mentioned most U.S. homes that have HDTV only have one set, but most likely will still have several CRT TVs and DVD players, and having a Blu-ray/DVD combo would came handy, and actually people would be saving money since it would cost more to buy a DVD version and a Blu-ray version separatelly.
Actually, SProdigy was referring to the digital copy that we're beginning to see in a few BluRay releases like Nightmare Before Christmas, The Eye, Jumper, and Hitman. These are scaled down copies of the film that you can transfer to your iPod or other mobile device. This is indeed a welcome trend for future Bluray titles.

Quote:
We should be objective and don't allow ourselves to measure Blu-ray success solely on what it's happening within U.S., we have to think what it's happening globally, and unless they stop gouging prices in other places, such as some countries in Europe, Asia, and all of Latin America, then Blu-ray wont have the strengh necessary to became a mainstream format.
CE companies usually concentrate on markets where adoption and penetration is more critical: such as the US and Japan. Case in point, the introduction of the PS3 happened first in these two markets and were delayed in the EU and elsewhere. Naturally you'll see price points dropping first where the products were first lauched.

All I can say is be patient. The price drops should come to your neck of the woods.

344.6.2008 17:18

Originally posted by ematrix:
I'm not very much into Digital Copies, mainly because I don't own an iPod and I dislike watching movies on a PC, but I recognize the positive aproach of including a Digital Copy with DVD releases, at least is a viable option, which comes handy for those who choose to use them.

Then I wonder if instead of providing the Digital Copy, they could have used that disc space to assemble the DVD release, so they could provide a richer video and audio for the movies, or more extra material. Yet I dislike their DRM use restrictions for these Digital Copies, such as placing an expiration date, which contradicts the sole purpose of offering it, so you can use it freely at your own choosing and convinience.
The digital copy that came with the Bluray release of Hitman is on a second disc. It doesn't encroach on the disc space for the movie so has no effect on the video and audio quality. I think the other BluRay titles with digital copies will be the same.

Also, the digital copy of Hitman on my iPod doesn't have an expiration date. However, I think you're limited to only one mobile device - not 100% sure on this.

354.6.2008 17:41

Originally posted by juankerr:
IIRC the problem with combo on BluRay is they couldn't make it work. I think it was the manufacturing or duplicating process that was the problem. Add to that the issues with the HD DVD combo and they just decided to abandon the project since it could introduce more problems.
I think part of the problem was that they wanted a "non-flipper" with both BD and DVD on the same side. The tricky part was getting the red laser to focus on the DVD layer thru the BD layer which was closer to the surface. The implementation was problematic so they just have it on hold for now. Who knows maybe in the future.

If they're going to come out with some form of combo release I think it's going to be 2 separate discs - one for each format. There was some word a few months ago that Digital Playgroud was mulling this on their BluRay release of Cheerleaders ;).

Quote:
CE companies usually concentrate on markets where adoption and penetration is more critical: such as the US and Japan. Case in point, the introduction of the PS3 happened first in these two markets and were delayed in the EU and elsewhere. Naturally you'll see price points dropping first where the products were first lauched.

All I can say is be patient. The price drops should come to your neck of the woods.

Agreed. The thing you have to recognize is that BluRay prices are dropping faster than expected. Remember that the first standalones were $1000 to $1500. Two years in we've got the $198 Magnavox albeit for a limited time. With this development I think we should see sub-$200 players by this holiday season and who knows how much cheaper when the Chinese players come in next year. I remember buying my first DVD player in 1999 (2 years after launch) for $500 - a Panasonic model which didn't even play DTS.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 04 Jun 2008 @ 17:49

364.6.2008 18:45

Originally posted by juankerr:
My point still stands. If you're waiting for a non-optical disc format as the "next big thing," how sure are you that the prices at launch will be cheaper than what we have now. New technology is always more expensive at launch. Prices then come down as the technology and the market mature.
I'm not expecting prices for new technology to be cheaper at launch, I expect it to be worth spending on it, and Blu-ray (another optical disc format) is not, at least for me. If they provided movies on a non optical disc format, such as flash cards, then I'm interested and worth the expense.

Originally posted by juankerr:
IIRC the problem with combo on BluRay is they couldn't make it work. I think it was the manufacturing or duplicating process that was the problem. Add to that the issues with the HD DVD combo and they just decided to abandon the project since it could introduce more problems.
As I did before, I never said you were wrong or that HD-DVD/DVD combos were flawless, so I don't know why you insist in bringing that up, when all i did from the start is simply addressing the viability of combos Blu-ray/DVD discs, which was worth exploring further than before, in order to strengh the BD format, and favor consumers in having two options in one edition, to use on their current and future equipment, if they choose to eventually upgrade to Blu-ray.

Originally posted by SProdigy:
The HDTV requirement will slow the growth of Blu-Ray, and because of it, DVD will continue to survive. Keep in mind, most households only needed to ditch their VCR and replace it with a DVD player a few years back. DVD's offered advantages akin to CD's, where you could instantly fast forward or rewind, plus DVD's take up less shelf space, which is critical to retailers as well as consumers.

If Blu-Ray can match the cost of DVD, then it should become a no brainer for HDTV owners. This is one spot HD-DVD had an advantage with using combo discs, which could be used in HD-DVD or DVD players. As it stands, most households only have 1 HDTV, so they would be purchasing a $25-30 BR disc to play in only one room of the house. I think this is the biggest disadvantage, and will be the reason why I will shy away from BR until prices drop to DVD-like levels.
Originally posted by ematrix:
... but as SProdigy mentioned most U.S. homes that have HDTV only have one set, but most likely will still have several CRT TVs and DVD players, and having a Blu-ray/DVD combo would came handy, and actually people would be saving money since it would cost more to buy a DVD version and a Blu-ray version separatelly.
This is SProdigy's post that I was referring to concerning HDTV and combo discs. His input on Digital Copies came after that.

Originally posted by juankerr:
CE companies usually concentrate on markets where adoption and penetration is more critical: such as the US and Japan. Case in point, the introduction of the PS3 happened first in these two markets and were delayed in the EU and elsewhere. Naturally you'll see price points dropping first where the products were first lauched.

All I can say is be patient. The price drops should come to your neck of the woods.
I intended not to extend this into a heated discussion, and I'm not disregarding your input (and eatsushi) in this matter which is true, but in order for Blu-ray to achieve mainstream status, it's not enough to address U.S. and Japan markets, when global mass consumption is critical, which has been negleted by gouging prices on their products for the rest of the world.

That's why we shouldn't meassure Blu-ray success solely on what is happening within U.S., when clearly the rest of the world is years behind from accepting Blu-ray, thanks to overpriced BD movies and players.

Originally posted by juankerr:
The digital copy that came with the Bluray release of Hitman is on a second disc. It doesn't encroach on the disc space for the movie so has no effect on the video and audio quality. I think the other BluRay titles with digital copies will be the same.

Also, the digital copy of Hitman on my iPod doesn't have an expiration date. However, I think you're limited to only one mobile device - not 100% sure on this.
SProdigy was referring of the Digital Copy on DVD releases, and my input was based on that, and I never compared to BD releases, simply addressing that myself, as probally others, would welcome that extra disc used for the Digital Copy, for a richer video and audio for the movies on one disc, and richer extra material on the second disc on DVD releases, and Digital Copies do have expiration dates, such as the one with AVP2 DVD release, which expires in March 10, 2009.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 04 Jun 2008 @ 19:11

374.6.2008 19:23

Originally posted by ematrix:
in order for Blu-ray to achieve mainstream status, global mass consumption is critical, which has been negleted by gouging prices on their products for the rest of the world. That's why we shouldn't meassure Blu-ray success solely on what is happening within U.S., when clearly the rest of the world is years behind from accepting Blu-ray, thanks to overpriced BD movies and players.
I don't understand the view that BluRay needs to take off and achieve mainstream status soon - or it's going to die. Did someone just give it a deadline? The evidence is there for all to see that BluRay adoption is rising at least here in the US and Japan.

It's immaterial how fast or how slow the adoption process is going. BD can take its sweet time for all I care as long as they continue releasing the movies, as long as they continue to improve the players, and as long as prices continue to drop.

Consider this: there have been 11 million Blu-ray discs sold to date, and preliminary data shows more discs sold between January and May 2008 than in all of 2007.

http://www.hollywoodinhidef.com/blog_detail.php?id=201

The fact that the increased sales are happening in a semi-recession is impressive enough. Add the fact that Paramount and Universal were still MIA during that time.

ematrix: I agree with juankerr. Just be patient. The price drops will eventually come your way. That's just how the markets work. Good things come to those who wait.

Panasonic PT-AE3000 1080p Projector//Carada 110" Criterion High Contrast Grey 16:9 Screen//Oppo BDP-83SE//Toshiba HD-XA2
Classe SSP800 Processor//Classe CA-5200 5 Channel Amplifier//Classe CA-2200 2 Channel Amplifier
Bowers & Wilkins 802D L-R/HTM 1D Center/SCMS Surrounds/JL Audio Fathom f113 x 2

384.6.2008 23:50

Well, I know how blu-ray will end up in every house. Eventually, you're only going to be able to buy blu-ray players that also play dvd's. Once the price drops enough on blu-ray, it's going to become nearly the same price as a reuglar dvd player, so there's no more need to keep simple dvd players on the shelves.

395.6.2008 2:44
bizlbarry
Inactive

Originally posted by eatsushi:


You may need to have your HDTV calibrated.

BTW, the "letterbox bars" are normal - the film was shot in 2.35:1 aspect ratio.
compared to the preview blu-ray disc that came with my ps3, no country isn't even close to, say, the Pirates preview. i wish television + film could get together in the next 100 years and put both media in the same aspect ratio

405.6.2008 4:29

Originally posted by error5:
I don't understand the view that BluRay needs to take off and achieve mainstream status soon - or it's going to die. Did someone just give it a deadline? The evidence is there for all to see that BluRay adoption is rising at least here in the US and Japan.

It's immaterial how fast or how slow the adoption process is going. BD can take its sweet time for all I care as long as they continue releasing the movies, as long as they continue to improve the players, and as long as prices continue to drop.

Consider this: there have been 11 million Blu-ray discs sold to date, and preliminary data shows more discs sold between January and May 2008 than in all of 2007.

http://www.hollywoodinhidef.com/blog_detail.php?id=201

The fact that the increased sales are happening in a semi-recession is impressive enough. Add the fact that Paramount and Universal were still MIA during that time.

ematrix: I agree with juankerr. Just be patient. The price drops will eventually come your way. That's just how the markets work. Good things come to those who wait.
Today Blu-ray is facing a different situation than when DVD was introduced back in 1997, as it revolutioned the home video entertaiment and had no other viable competidor, that it could take its time to reach consumers globally. Even then DVD's consumption and acceptance was more promising, as 128 million DVD discs were sold in U.S. and Canada from 1997-1999, that's ten times the amount of Blu-ray discs sold to date.

One of Blu-ray's problems is that surges when the time for optical discs is passing, for instance now consumers are preffering MP3 rather than audio CDs, or find appealing USB and Flash cards as storage media for audio and video, even larger HDDs and hardware advances, has allowed many to enjoy movies and TV signals in HD from HTPCs, set-top boxes and digital receivers.

DVD as storage media and video format is still strong, thanks to inexpensive hardware and a well established mass consumption global market. The reality is that a large percentage of consumers (even larger globally) is content with DVD's quality, that even current lower prices for BD products within U.S. (compared to rest of the world) hasn't help convincing many, even when they have HDTV sets required for viewing BD movies, as the article states.

With the emergence of other viable non-optical disc options, Blu-ray will have a harder time reaching consumers globally, and it sure doesn't help, when they have been neglecting consumers in the rest of the world, by gouging prices for their products. But you're right about one thing, good things come to those who wait, I just don't think Blu-ray is one of them.

415.6.2008 8:04

I think you have some very good points there ematrix. I just need to voice out some opposing views:

Originally posted by ematrix:
Today Blu-ray is facing a different situation than when DVD was introduced back in 1997, as it revolutioned the home video entertaiment and had no other viable competidor, that it could take its time to reach consumers globally. Even then DVD's consumption and acceptance was more promising, as 128 million DVD discs were sold in U.S. and Canada from 1997-1999, that's ten times the amount of Blu-ray discs sold to date.
DVD did not have to go through a prolonged format war against a very strong competitor. I know DIVX was there but it died a quick death and its studios quickly adopted DVD. DVD was able to release more movies in a short period of time thus was able to sell more discs.

The fact remains that the revenue from DVD is declining and the studios need BluRay to make up for that.

DVD may have sold more discs the first 2 years but there's a reason for it. I like the fact that BluRay isn't trying push out too many titles at once. I see the effort they are putting into each release. They know they have a more discerning audience now so they make sure that audio and video quality are up to snuff and the extras are worth watching. High def media definitely is a more polished product now than DVD was 2 years into its life sapn.

Quote:
One of Blu-ray's problems is that surges when the time for optical discs is passing, for instance now consumers are preffering MP3 rather than audio CDs, or find appealing USB and Flash cards as storage media for audio and video, even larger HDDs and hardware advances, has allowed many to enjoy movies and TV signals in HD from HTPCs, set-top boxes and digital receivers.
One problem with downloaded content is resale. If I buy a BluRay disc I can sell it on eBay and recover some of the expense. A legally downloaded movie on the hard drive of my set-top box has no resale value.

The other issue with downloads is the compression that many users not to mention all videophiles will not find acceptable.

Finally, with ISP's now capping bandwidth usage (like TW's metered trial) the bottleneck limits your freedom and your choices.

HDD prices are coming down but HDD's fail. Flash memory prices are nowhere near viable as an HD movie medium at this time. A 16 GB SDHC card for my HD videocam cost me over $60.

Quote:
DVD as storage media and video format is still strong, thanks to inexpensive hardware and a well established mass consumption global market. The reality is that a large percentage of consumers (even larger globally) is content with DVD's quality, that even current lower prices for BD products within U.S. (compared to rest of the world) hasn't help convincing many, even when they have HDTV sets required for viewing BD movies, as the article states.
No argument there but consider that 2 years into DVD's lifespan people were still preferring VHS over it. There is the concept of current consumer preference but you really can't predict future consumer preference.

The fact remains that right now there is nothing better than BluRay (and HD DVD for that matter). It is the only high def format that can maximize your home theater investment. Those of us who have spent alot of time, effort and funds to put together our HT setups feel we deserve nothing less than the best. At this point in time BluRay is it.

You can wait for "the next great thing" but there are those of us who like to live in the present. Life's too short and we prefer to enjoy the fruits of our labors while we still can.

Quote:
With the emergence of other viable non-optical disc options, Blu-ray will have a harder time reaching consumers globally, and it sure doesn't help, when they have been neglecting consumers in the rest of the world, by gouging prices for their products. But you're right about one thing, good things come to those who wait, I just don't think Blu-ray is one of them.
The previous point still stands. How sure are you that the "next great thing" that comes after BluRay will not be another case of price gouging as you call it? Remember that these are the same movie studios and CE manufacturers that will be putting out these products. Unless they suddenly change their corporate designation to "non-profit organization," you can expect the same high pricing for new technology.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Jun 2008 @ 8:41

425.6.2008 10:12
susieqbbb
Inactive

Here is mainly why people in the united states are not purchasing blu-ray.


TO $%^$ EXPENSIVE.

Why spend 400.00 for a blu-ray player when you can get a up converter dvd player for 79.99 and why spend 40 dollers for a blu-ray movie when i can get the dvd version for $9.99 to $20.00.

SONY NEEDS TO LOOK AT THIS:


CHEAPER IS BETTER.

435.6.2008 10:47

Originally posted by susieqbbb:
Here is mainly why people in the united states are not purchasing blu-ray.


TO $%^$ EXPENSIVE.

Why spend 400.00 for a blu-ray player when you can get a up converter dvd player for 79.99 and why spend 40 dollers for a blu-ray movie when i can get the dvd version for $9.99 to $20.00.

SONY NEEDS TO LOOK AT THIS:


CHEAPER IS BETTER.

To you that may be, but not to all. I prefer to have the best quality experience OVER quantity of titles just because of a low price. Sooner or later DVD will be phased out (though it will be a long ways out) but having the ability to satisfy those who can appreciate and afford better quality is good. I don't get all my stuff in HD (mainly because it is not available yet) but even if it was I probably wouldn't bother as somethings are perfectly fine in upscaled DVD.

445.6.2008 11:42

Originally posted by juankerr:
The fact remains that the revenue from DVD is declining and the studios need BluRay to make up for that.
The studios realize that DVD is no longer the cash cow that it used to be. In addition, the DVD patents are expiring so they need new technology to patent.

Quote:
I like the fact that BluRay isn't trying push out too many titles at once. I see the effort they are putting into each release. They know they have a more discerning audience now so they make sure that audio and video quality are up to snuff and the extras are worth watching. High def media definitely is a more polished product now than DVD was 2 years into its life sapn.
Agreed. The audience for high def can be demanding. This is why Sony Pictures re-released The Fifth Element with a much better AVC encode, TrueHD soundtrack, and free-replacement offer to boot.

Quote:
No argument there but consider that 2 years into DVD's lifespan people were still preferring VHS over it. There is the concept of current consumer preference but you really can't predict future consumer preference.

The fact remains that right now there is nothing better than BluRay (and HD DVD for that matter). It is the only high def format that can maximize your home theater investment. Those of us who have spent alot of time, effort and funds to put together our HT setups feel we deserve nothing less than the best. At this point in time BluRay is it.

You can wait for "the next great thing" but there are those of us who like to live in the present. Life's too short and we prefer to enjoy the fruits of our labors while we still can.
Therein lies the reason for the difference in opinion.

Those who support BluRay or high-def media in general already have the equipment (plus the eyes and ears) to take advantage of the new format.

In addition, whenever a new format comes along, it's likely that they will also be the early adaptors. As you have pointed out, any new format or new technology will likely cost more than what is currently available.

Quote:
The previous point still stands. How sure are you that the "next great thing" that comes after BluRay will not be another case of price gouging as you call it? Remember that these are the same movie studios and CE manufacturers that will be putting out these products. Unless they suddenly change their corporate designation to "non-profit organization," you can expect the same high pricing for new technology.
Agreed. It's going to be the same Hollywood movie machine and the same Japanese/Korean electonics conglomerates that will come out with any new format after BluRay. Anything new won't be inexpensive or cheap.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Jun 2008 @ 11:43

455.6.2008 12:57
dvd_guy
Inactive

Originally posted by Saber9:
To me DVD is already obsolite. If it isn't on Blu ray it doesn't exist to me.
Hahaha what a retarded thing to say. DVD is clearly outdated technology, but it has plenty of life left in it as a consumer format. Not really that dissimilar to what happened with VHS and S-VHS. Yes, S-VHS had a far better picture, but people had already invested in billions of regular VHS recorders...and the format lasted a good 25 years or so! S-VHS, however, never got further than being an enthusiasts format.

It is going to take YEARS before there are enough authoring houses that can churn out blu-ray discs in the quantities that DVDs are currently produced. I feel very sorry for you that you only buy what's being released on BD! You must have a VERY boring library!! I guess you're one of those nerds who worry more about the picture quality than the content of the movie/tv show/concert itself.

465.6.2008 16:54

Agreed, DVD it has plenty of life left as a consumer video format, and you brought up another valid point, not only there aren't enough authoring houses and manufacturing plants, that can produce Blu-ray discs in the amount that DVDs are currently producing, but also not every major movie distributor (such as Lionsgate and Artisan) has the ability to release their titles globally, therefore it depends on local distributors in Asia, Europe and Latin America to do so, which means those titles must be re-authored and produced locally, so they can release them at their regions.

Agreed that DVD did not have to go through a prolonged format war against a very strong competitor, as Blu-ray did. But why is the revenue from DVD declining and the studios need Blu-ray to make up for that? Because not only consumers have already adquired every single title, they wish for on DVD in the past years, but now they are more selective in which titles they purchase, since movie studios have been producing a lot of crappy movies lately, that aren't worth buying.

Considering this, a 4% DVD sales decline isn't that bad to claim that DVD is falling, but if movie studios focused in actually making good movies worth seeing and buying, then no doubt sales should rise again. Agreed that more effort is put on BD movies now, than a decade ago on DVD titles, but not all BD releases have been outstanding for a HD format, and there's plenty of "barebones" BD titles out there.

I'm not disregarding your input on digital content, I agree with you, but at least is an viable option that wasn't availible until recent years. As for storage media such as HDD, USB and Flash cards, it's still evolving and improving, agreed that's still expensive but it's worth it as non-optical disc media formats. It's fine by me if new revolutionary technology is high priced, as long as it's worth it. I'm not against HD nor saying it's not worth it, but BD is just an evolution from DVD, as another optical disc format.

Indeed life's too short and we should prefer to enjoy the fruits of our labors while we still can, but then there those who believe, that more important and significant things are worth spend their money on, after all we're talking about movies, probally that's what on the minds of those who are preffering and sticking with DVD.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Jun 2008 @ 17:01

475.6.2008 20:31

I hope Cd format died forever.I'm tired of this B.S.

485.6.2008 20:50

Quote:
Originally posted by ematrix:
Combo discs would also benefit consumers greatly, since rather than buying SD and HD versions of the movie separatelly, you could get one sole edition knowing that you can play the movie on your DVD player and CRT TV, and by the time you finally buy a Blu-ray player and HDTV set, you already have the Blu-ray version.
JVC developed the DVD/BD combo disc but IIRC manufacturing problems prevented it from gaining ground.

The problems with the DVD/HD DVD combo format were also a big issue:

Commentary: Combo Discs - What Went Wrong?

Quote:
Quite simply, Combo discs are killing HD DVD. It's time to move past them. Consumers don't need them and certainly don't want to pay extra for them, only to find the discs seizing up in their players when they try to watch their newly-purchased movies. I am hereby officially pleading to the studios to give up this foolish scheme and make all future HD DVDs, whether new releases or catalog titles, just HD DVDs, without the Combo burden. Everyone will truly be better off if you do.


Originally posted by mspurloc:
I'm waiting for the next big thing and so are all the people I know who weren't foolish enough to buy into Blu Ray.
I just don't get this logic. If price is the issue, how sure are you that "the next big thing" will be inexpensive?

All new technology is expensive. There's years of research and development costs to recoup. I'm sure "the next best thing" will be out of reach to the general public cost-wise for at least several years after launch.
Nothing went wrong with the HD-DVD combo disks. I have several and all work great in both formats. As I recall, the BluRay/DVD combo is technically more difficult to do.

495.6.2008 21:05

Good. Shows good sense. Blu Ray players are over-priced by $200+, most new Blu Ray movies are marginally better than DVD, at best, Blu Ray re-issues are no better, the movies are over-priced in any case, and if the Toshiba Blu Ray Killer technology gets you a noticibly better picture than current up-converting...adios Blu Ray and richly deserved, too, for causing the death of the superior HD-DVD format (cheaper, better sound, identical picture, dual format).

That would be poetic justice for Sony.

And yeah, I do own a Playstation 3.

505.6.2008 21:37

Originally posted by nopcbs:
Blu Ray players are over-priced by $200+,
If BluRay players are overpriced by $200 then how much should this weekend's $198 Maganavox sell for at Walmart?

515.6.2008 21:42

Don't count Tosiba out yet:

Toshiba Plans To Upscale Its DVD Players
Toshiba To Take On Blu-ray Quality With New DVD Player
By David Richards | Tuesday | 03/06/2008

After being beaten up by Blu ray it appears that Toshiba has not given up on the development of technology that delivers high quality content to a screen with news that they will later this year they roll a DVD player capable of producing high-resolution images from regular DVDs that Toshibe claim will deliver the same quality as Blu ray.

According to Japanese news media, Yomiuri Online Toshiba plan to release a player that is compatible with the current DVD formats while delivering Full HD Blu ray quality playback.

Currently Standard DVD format is capable of playing back content at 350,000-pixel resolution. Blu-ray has a resolution of about 2 million pixels which is six times greater than the current format.

According to Yomiuri Online Toshiba's new technology has been made possible by developing a large integrated circuit that can instantly convert images produced in the current format into high-resolution images. This technology makes it possible to reproduce high-quality images comparable to Blu-ray video from current standard DVDs.

Toshiba President Atsutoshi Nishida is reported to have said that his company will not market DVD players that are compatible with Blu-ray, but instead they will launch a low cost solution that delivers the same quality as Blu ray.

The new DVD players fitted with Toshiba LSIs could be up to 25% cheaper than Blu-ray models and is expected to go on sale by the end of 2008.

525.6.2008 21:44

Originally posted by ChiefBrdy:
Don't count Tosiba out yet:
Already being discussed here:

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/668957

535.6.2008 21:48

Originally posted by ChiefBrdy:
times greater than the current format.

According to Yomiuri Online Toshiba's new technology has been made possible by developing a large integrated circuit that can instantly convert images produced in the current format into high-resolution images. This technology makes it possible to reproduce high-quality images comparable to Blu-ray video from current standard DVDs.

Toshiba President Atsutoshi Nishida is reported to have said that his company will not market DVD players that are compatible with Blu-ray, but instead they will launch a low cost solution that delivers the same quality as Blu ray.

The new DVD players fitted with Toshiba LSIs could be up to 25% cheaper than Blu-ray models and is expected to go on sale by the end of 2008.

This is what we call upscaling. It's nothing new. You can't create accurate picture detail out of something that was never there.

Pure marketing hype.

545.6.2008 21:48

Originally posted by juankerr:
If BluRay players are overpriced by $200 then how much should this weekend's $198 Maganavox sell for at Walmart?
Well here's the deal: Walmart gives you the Magnavox player for free PLUS $2 store credit so you can get some Altoids chewing gum.

Sounds like a winner to me.

Panasonic PT-AE3000 1080p Projector//Carada 110" Criterion High Contrast Grey 16:9 Screen//Oppo BDP-83SE//Toshiba HD-XA2
Classe SSP800 Processor//Classe CA-5200 5 Channel Amplifier//Classe CA-2200 2 Channel Amplifier
Bowers & Wilkins 802D L-R/HTM 1D Center/SCMS Surrounds/JL Audio Fathom f113 x 2

556.6.2008 11:17

Blue Ray is going to be to disc's as vhs.cfm" class="forum_link" target="_blank">S-VHS was to VHS..Just another option, not a new format.Vhs tape was good enough for the Masses; Blue Ray would appeal to the same demographic as S-VHS users.

566.6.2008 18:49

Originally posted by juankerr:
Originally posted by nopcbs:
Blu Ray players are over-priced by $200+,
If BluRay players are overpriced by $200 then how much should this weekend's $198 Maganavox sell for at Walmart?
Probably like $100...it's a Magnavox! But seriously, $200 is getting there, sure enough.

nopcbs

576.6.2008 19:04

Maybe, but this is Toshiba not some scam shop. We will see what we will see. Keep in mind, too, that most re-issues on Blu Ray are NO better than up-converted DVD versions and even some of the newer stuff is not much better.

Originally posted by Baccusboy:
Originally posted by ChiefBrdy:
times greater than the current format.

According to Yomiuri Online Toshiba's new technology has been made possible by developing a large integrated circuit that can instantly convert images produced in the current format into high-resolution images. This technology makes it possible to reproduce high-quality images comparable to Blu-ray video from current standard DVDs.

Toshiba President Atsutoshi Nishida is reported to have said that his company will not market DVD players that are compatible with Blu-ray, but instead they will launch a low cost solution that delivers the same quality as Blu ray.

The new DVD players fitted with Toshiba LSIs could be up to 25% cheaper than Blu-ray models and is expected to go on sale by the end of 2008.

This is what we call upscaling. It's nothing new. You can't create accurate picture detail out of something that was never there.

Pure marketing hype.


nopcbs

587.6.2008 13:00

VHS tapes were expensive most of their life span the movies didn't drop in their price range of $70 to over $100 until DVD really started to take over. DVD's were very expensive when they first came out around 1995 that is when the specification was finalized. They weren't mass retailed until late 97'. Just like BD vs. DVD there was a huge quality difference.

Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD
DVD-Video is a standard for storing video content on DVD media. In the U.S., mass retailer sales of DVD-Video titles and players began in late 1997. By June 2003, weekly DVD-Video rentals began out-numbering weekly VHS cassette rentals, reflecting the rapid adoption rate of the technology in the U.S. marketplace. Currently DVD-Video is the dominant form of home video distribution worldwide.

I don't know why people pay for LQ MP3's at $1+ per song it just doesn't make sense, that's like listening to a Transistor radio versus a HiFi stereo. One plus for the MP3 market is that music CD's are way too expensive at $12 to $18ea. so if you only want one or two songs then why buy the CD, unless you are like me and have a very good stereo system.

I don't have a BD player/burner yet but at $200 it is time to think about it. I'm not buying DVD moives right now unless they are very cheap like $6ea. I'm waiting to make my future puchases in BD, the direction of the future, besides I prefer quality on my HD TV's. I must also say that $30 is too much for me for a movie, the price needs to be around $20 or cheaper to get me to bite.

597.6.2008 20:06

VHS movies in their life span weren't as expensive as you say, since they were priced gobally for roughly US$10 each, and the first DVD movies were released in 1997 (the first line of Warner's titles) which were priced gobally for roughly US$15 each.

DVD succeeded because it offered a compelling alternative to VHS, and as the years went by, DVD hardware prices went much below that the prices for VHS hardware back in 1997, that consumers saw DVD as an appealing and inexpensive alternative not only for playing movies and TV shows, but also to record them.

In 1997, a VHS VCR was sold roughly for US$150, now you can pay US$50 for a DVD player or a DVD recorder. VHS blank tapes were sold for US$1 each, now you can pay less than 30 cents for a DVD blank disc. Granted that prices for BD players will decrease in the following years, yet isn't promising when BD recordable media (recorders and blank discs) are still very expensive, with no indication of a decrease in price for the near future.

Also even so manufacting costs have decresed in the past years, DVD movies have been overpriced when new releases are priced globally for US15-25 each; I agree with you that we should be paying much less for new DVD releases than we do now, I for one aren't eager to pay US$30-60 for a BD movie, which is what BD movies are priced gobally, when I have struggled to purchase overpriced DVD releases, and have no warranty that prices for BD movies will came down any time soon, at least not gobally, nor that history will not repeat itself as it did with prices for DVD movies in the past decade.

Consider that previous format changes have involved new phisical media (vinyl records and audio cassettes to compact discs, VHS videotape to DVD discs) yet BD is another optical disc, which is physically identical to DVD. Indeed HD is the direction of the future for home video entertaiment, but I for one aren't eager to invest on BD, when the era of optical discs is slowly fading away, as other non-optical disc media are rising, such as USB and Flash cards.

Currently DVD-Video is the dominant form of home video distribution worldwide, as they still dominate with around 97% of video sales, and a large majority of consumers are satisfied with DVDs quality, which is confirmed by the survey in this article, as even so a lot of U.S. homes already own a HDTV (which is required to take advantage of Blu-ray's capabilities) that hasn't been enough to convice them on the ordeal of replacing equipment and movies for BD counterparts.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 07 Jun 2008 @ 21:34

608.6.2008 6:29

Your arguement about optical media doesn't hold water. Chip Memory & Magnetic storage are MUCH older technologies and have serious faults that have actually promoted optical technology for large based storage, that if taken care of lasts longer and performs better.

You are wrong about DVD's as well, you could get them way back in 94'-95' they just weren't mass produced until 97', the end of 97'. And yes to buy a VHS taped movie, not a player, it was $70 to over $100USD and remained more expensive then buying a DVD movie for sometime. My first VHS Player/Recorder was $1000USD in the early 80's it was a 4 head HiFi NEC bought from BesyBuy. It was expensive because it was one of the first 4 head HiFi decks.

With optical storage capable of storing 1TB or greater with long term reliable storage capability it won't be going away anytime soon flash drives just don't cut it compared to optical storage. Don't take me wrong though USB drives have there place and work pretty well in their nich.

618.6.2008 10:24

Put that way, I agree, especially since I think Wal-Mart gives you 90 days to bring it back, so when it breaks (not if, when) you can take it back.

- nopcbs

Quote:
Originally posted by juankerr:
If BluRay players are overpriced by $200 then how much should this weekend's $198 Maganavox sell for at Walmart?
Well here's the deal: Walmart gives you the Magnavox player for free PLUS $2 store credit so you can get some Altoids chewing gum.

Sounds like a winner to me.

628.6.2008 10:52

Any studio that tries to be the first to phase out DVD is cutting its own throat. The market for DVD's IS the market with Blu Ray a side-show. The side-show will likely get less relevent if the Toshiba technology to launch this fall is close to what Toshiba says it will be.

Think about it from the standpoint of a non-Blu ray owner: You have an upconverting DVD player and a modest (42" or smaller) HD TV set. You have a library of DVD's that look pretty darned good, not quite HD, but very good. You can get any new DVD as a rental for modest cost, easilly. You can get a Blu Ray player for a relatively large out-lay. You will own no Blu ray disks you can watch. You can buy Blu Ray disks, some of which will look significantly better than the DVD version, but most of which (and pretty much all re-issues) will only look a little better and virtually all will cost some 50% than a DVD, sometimes a LOT more. If you want to rent, you will have a small slection and get to pay more for the rental (unless you are NetFlixing and that will not last). If you NetFlix your Blu Ray, you will get to wait quite a while until a disk is available if it is a new release (been there, done that). On the Horizon is the Toshiba technology that will list at $200 and, no dount, promptly drop to under $150. The technology (whether just very good or excellent)will work with EVERY DVD.

What would you buy as Joe User?

I think that, just maybe, Sony won a pyrric victory that will cost them a LOT. Could not have happened to a nicer company.

- nopcbs

Quote:
Originally posted by susieqbbb:
Here is mainly why people in the united states are not purchasing blu-ray.


TO $%^$ EXPENSIVE.

Why spend 400.00 for a blu-ray player when you can get a up converter dvd player for 79.99 and why spend 40 dollers for a blu-ray movie when i can get the dvd version for $9.99 to $20.00.

SONY NEEDS TO LOOK AT THIS:


CHEAPER IS BETTER.

To you that may be, but not to all. I prefer to have the best quality experience OVER quantity of titles just because of a low price. Sooner or later DVD will be phased out (though it will be a long ways out) but having the ability to satisfy those who can appreciate and afford better quality is good. I don't get all my stuff in HD (mainly because it is not available yet) but even if it was I probably wouldn't bother as somethings are perfectly fine in upscaled DVD.

638.6.2008 15:36

I agree with you, no movie studio will dare to phase out DVD, when is the dominant mass market and preffered by more than 97% of global consumers, including a large percentage of U.S. consumers as this article states; probally Blu-ray will have a harder time reaching the masses, if Toshiba's Super Resolution technology is close to what they says it will be.

First of all, any kind of storage media isn't infallible, yet chip memories and magnetic storage media withstands a higher resilience than optical discs, certanly users don't worry about typical disc defects such as scratches and fingerprints... even movie studios store films digital masters on HDDs, since currently it's the most reliable way to preserve them.

Even the hard coating on BD discs, granted is more resistant than DVD discs, yet isn't infallible; also the inner layer on optical discs could oxidate if it wasn't sealed properly, regardless if you rarely reproduce the discs, and you have taken care of them to prevent exposure to dust, sunlight, heat, etc.

The fact is that optical discs with more than 50GB storage capable it's still under development, and it won't be a reality anytime soon. But HDD with 1TB or greater with long term reliable storage capability are availible today, as well as Flash drives with 32GB storage capability. Granted that it's pricy to get them, but worth the expense.

In regards to VHS, first of all the average price for a VHS VCR in the early 80's was US$600, but i'll agree that it's possible that more expensive 4 head HiFi models were availible at that time, yet you have to consider that VHS primary target in the 80's was the rental market, and the offering of VHS copies on sale at stores was very limited, since they didn't believe consumers would actually want to own a copy.

VHS approach towards rental markets in the 80's, is what lead the current attitude of video rental stores, that they must have new releases much before than they're offered to consumers, in order to profit from rentals.

But in the early 90's they began mass producing VHS movies for sale, which were sold at first roughly for US$20 each, and due to its success they increased mass production and copies were sold roughly for US$10 each for several years, until DVD was introduced back in 1997.

DVD's specs for the DVD player and DVD-ROM were finalized in December 1995, and U.S. mass retailer sales of DVD players began in late 1997, but mass global inseption was at early 1998 at most; also the first DVD titles (which came from Warner) were released gobally at that time, which were priced for roughly US$15 each. I don't know how you can say that you could get both players and movies way back in 1994-95.

Back in 1997 global prices for VHS VCRs were US$150 and US$10 for VHS movies, while DVD players were US$600 and US$15 for DVD movies; today global prices for DVD players are US$50 and US$15-25 for DVD movies, while global prices for BD players are US$600 and US$30-60 for BD movies.

In such comparason you can realize that even so prices for BD players may decrease gobally in the following years, there's no warranty that will be the case also for BD movies, since DVD movies are still overpriced and didn't decrease in price as the hardware did, even so it's cheaper to produce DVD movies now than back in 1997.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 08 Jun 2008 @ 15:49

648.6.2008 15:47

Originally posted by mspurloc:
Gee, where have I heard this before?
Oh, right. Just from...EVERYONE!
Sony blew it with their price gouging.
I'm waiting for the next big thing and so are all the people I know who weren't foolish enough to buy into Blu Ray.

Anytime there is new tech its not going to be cheap.Blu-Ray didn't blow anything DVD had a very high cost when it launched & DVD players was 500-600 dollars when they first launched.Wait til the price go down then buy.Price gouging i think not...they got to cover production cost which is going to be high because components for players are going to be high @ first & thats a cost they can't control early in production.


658.6.2008 18:36

DVD was a quantom leap over VHS both in picture quality, sound quality, durability, size, convenience, you name it. Blu Ray is a modest improvement at great cost over the best DVD's. Basically, a one trick pony in that regard (picture is better as is sound, but few people have really good sound systems that can show off the improvement, so it's just picture quality). When we start seeing Blu Ray players and Blu ray disks at maybe 20% over the price of a good DVD player/disk AND ready availablility of Blu Ray disks for rental at the same price as DVD's, then and only then will Blu Ray be a significant player. Otherwise, it's a niche market that cannot last.

Like I said, if the new Toshiba splits the difference between the best Blu Ray and what we now have with up-converted DVD's, it's end of story for Blu Ray.

- nopcbs


Quote:
Originally posted by mspurloc:
Gee, where have I heard this before?
Oh, right. Just from...EVERYONE!
Sony blew it with their price gouging.
I'm waiting for the next big thing and so are all the people I know who weren't foolish enough to buy into Blu Ray.

Anytime there is new tech its not going to be cheap.Blu-Ray didn't blow anything DVD had a very high cost when it launched & DVD players was 500-600 dollars when they first launched.Wait til the price go down then buy.Price gouging i think not...they got to cover production cost which is going to be high because components for players are going to be high @ first & thats a cost they can't control early in production.

669.6.2008 8:16

Wow to be ignorant and pride yourself on it. BD-HD technology is just as much better then DVD's as VHS was to DVD, upconverting is just a joke making a high low res picture higher doesn't make it better it just converts it higher and can make it worst in some cases.

Super Res will also be dead and not fly. Why would I spend a lot of monies for a better upconversion method (algorithms) this isn't true HD and definitely isn't in the same ball park as BD, it is just a better way to upconvert and you need special gear to achieve it. Again Toshiba is falling well below the mark as they did with HD-DVD's which has cost them big. I guess Toshiba is going for broke now.

Here is a good article on Super Resolution:
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/05/09/toshiba_cell_strategy/

Now you can buck change that is you prerogative but that doesn't change facts no matter what your bias is, like hating Sony so bad you won't buy a good product from them. I hate Sony too but their TV's are some of the best so I consider buying them and BD is in that same light.

Originally posted by ematrix:
First of all, any kind of storage media isn't infallible, yet chip memories and magnetic storage media withstands a higher resilience than optical discs, certanly users don't worry about typical disc defects such as scratches and fingerprints... even movie studios store films digital masters on HDDs, since currently it's the most reliable way to preserve them.

Even the hard coating on BD discs, granted is more resistant than DVD discs, yet isn't infallible; also the inner layer on optical discs could oxidate if it wasn't sealed properly, regardless if you rarely reproduce the discs, and you have taken care of them to prevent exposure to dust, sunlight, heat, etc.

The fact is that optical discs with more than 50GB storage capable it's still under development, and it won't be a reality anytime soon. But HDD with 1TB or greater with long term reliable storage capability are availible today, as well as Flash drives with 32GB storage capability. Granted that it's pricy to get them, but worth the expense.
Here we go again that pride thing with a misguided lack of knowledge. Disk arrays provide very large storage capability but that doesnít make it more reliable it just makes it larger. They still have to do a very slow and awkward tape backup(s) or have redundant arrays off site to protect this storage using RAID technology. They could use an array of optical drives and some do. Once you store to an optical you can put it away and be assured it will remain reliable recovery, thatís is totally not true with HDDís or MAG tapes, unless of course you are a real moron that doesnít know how to handle and take care of the media like putting it in the Sun or pinching the disc(s) or scratching the layer(s) buy laying it on the floor and sliding it around like a wake board. If stupidity is your argument give it up but again that doesnít change the facts. Oh and buy the way I think it was Magnavox demoíd a 1TB BD drive in Australia a year ago so they arenít very far away.

The bottom line is that BD will be the new format as DVDís were in their childhood Super-Res isnít going to change that. DVDís will be around for some time to come too. So arguing who sold more by a date or what prices were doesnít really matter at all. You have a choice keep up with technology or being happy with the old and there is nothing wrong with still enjoying DVDís. People when they see how much nicer HD is are going to side with HD that is happening now and as the prices drop there will be even more of an insurgence to that market.

679.6.2008 8:24

Mr-Movies, good point though I also disagree with your numbers. Better for cheaper sells. Better for way more expensive can not be expected to do nearly as well. People do not mind paying more for the players if they can 'get it back' in 10 or so movies. There are too many persons out there that refuse to be exploited by the media mafia. I refuse to pay even $20 for something that costs $.2 to make. It has to be half that and a wonderful flick for me to concider. At Half that again it only needs to be a good movie. I figure there are way more people with my sentiments than are willing to pay for blue - ray disks. If they are willing to pay good for them. I might be buying them myself if I had triple the disposable money I now have (which is pitiful right now with energy prices killing me). The reason why many houses even have HD TVs is because regular TV is going out the window next year. It is not to watch Blue Ray Disks.

689.6.2008 8:30

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/bl...on-outpaces-dvd

Demand For BluRay Replication Outpaces DVD[Singulus]

Quote:
Singulus has revealed that consumers are adopting Blu-ray faster than they did DVD, with the company having received 21 orders for Blu-ray dual-layer machines in the first quarter.

The information was revealed to shareholders at the technology manufacturer's Annual General Meeting of the Singulus Technologies in Frankfurt and directly contradicted claims by Microsoft's Robbie Bach that consumers were hesitant to upgrade to Blu-ray.

"This means that the orders for Blu-ray in the first year of the dual layer technology already by far exceeded the volume at the start of the DVD eleven years ago with 17 machines," said Stefan A Baustert, CEO of Singulus.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 09 Jun 2008 @ 8:34

699.6.2008 9:45

Originally posted by nopcbs:
On the Horizon is the Toshiba technology that will list at $200 and, no dount, promptly drop to under $150. The technology (whether just very good or excellent)will work with EVERY DVD.

What would you buy as Joe User?
Joe User would ignore the new Toshiba SRT players and get the $39 upconverter.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5584897



Panasonic PT-AE3000 1080p Projector//Carada 110" Criterion High Contrast Grey 16:9 Screen//Oppo BDP-83SE//Toshiba HD-XA2
Classe SSP800 Processor//Classe CA-5200 5 Channel Amplifier//Classe CA-2200 2 Channel Amplifier
Bowers & Wilkins 802D L-R/HTM 1D Center/SCMS Surrounds/JL Audio Fathom f113 x 2

709.6.2008 10:04

Nope. If you have one price point for a player, your competition is taken away and you double the price, you're gouging. That's what Sony and its partners have done. It's got nothing to do with quality or how "hard" it is to do business.

They could've kept the price lower, built customer loyalty and made it up in scale, but they didn't. They're charging more for players that don't cost that much more to make than the current DVD models, despite what they claim.

There IS no excuse.

Originally posted by NexGen76:
Originally posted by mspurloc:
Gee, where have I heard this before?
Oh, right. Just from...EVERYONE!
Sony blew it with their price gouging.
I'm waiting for the next big thing and so are all the people I know who weren't foolish enough to buy into Blu Ray.

Anytime there is new tech its not going to be cheap.Blu-Ray didn't blow anything DVD had a very high cost when it launched & DVD players was 500-600 dollars when they first launched.Wait til the price go down then buy.Price gouging i think not...they got to cover production cost which is going to be high because components for players are going to be high @ first & thats a cost they can't control early in production.

719.6.2008 10:36

Originally posted by mspurloc:
Nope. If you have one price point for a player, your competition is taken away and you double the price, you're gouging.
I guess I have to restate my previous post about this alleged "gouging:"

It's not gouging when you lower the price for the holiday season and then go back to its regular price once the holiday shopping season is done. We see it all the time.

Let me explain to you what happened to the pricing of the Sony BDP-S300:

June 2007 - BDP-S300 was released with an MSRP of $499

Dec 2007 - BDP-S300 price drop to $399 for the holiday season

Early 2008 - BDP-S300 price goes back up to its usual $499 MSRP. It was just a coincidence that Toshiba announced the death of HD DVD around the time that the price went back up to it's usual level.

June 2008 - BDP-S300 price now $388 at Walmart. With the Father's Day $100 store coupon, this will be down to $288 starting this weekend.

Can someone please, for the love of god, show me where the gouging happened???

729.6.2008 10:50

Originally posted by eatsushi:
Can someone please, for the love of god, show me where the gouging happened???
Never happened.

Facts:

1. Standalone prices have dropped from $1000 or more at launch to $300 or less 2 years into the format.

2. Having no competition doesn't mean that prices will go up. Just look at what happened to DVD. It is the most dominant media format in history and had no competition for several years. Still, prices on players and discs have decreased.

739.6.2008 18:02

You're buying into the claim that Blu Ray players cost more to produce than HD DVD players did?

Originally posted by juankerr:
Originally posted by eatsushi:
Can someone please, for the love of god, show me where the gouging happened???
Never happened.

Facts:

1. Standalone prices have dropped from $1000 or more at launch to $300 or less 2 years into the format.

2. Having no competition doesn't mean that prices will go up. Just look at what happened to DVD. It is the most dominant media format in history and had no competition for several years. Still, prices on players and discs have decreased.

749.6.2008 18:58

It's pitiful that some think by calling others ignorant or stupit will actually make their arguments solid, what a joke! Regardless of that, it doesn't change the fact that optical discs aren't as reliable as claimed, even if users store and handle discs carefully, to avoid exposure to heat, dust, sun, fingerprints or scratches, anyone could get discs that will degrade on their own, months or years after you got them, due to flaws when manufactured, which is a issue well known even in the case of pre-recorded discs.

So arguing who sold more by a date or what prices were doesnít really matter at all? On the contrary, the point of sales figures, estadistics, surveys, etc. is to have a factual realistic view of past and present technology's development and consumption, yet it's easy to make claims, judge and criticize while disregarding these facts.

It's a fact that most of U.S. households that already own a HDTV, are more than happy with DVD picture quality and HD upscaling and that for now, Blu-ray is simply not worth it; that regardless of what's happening in U.S., around the world the scenario for Blu-ray is even worse, since more than 97% of global population are content with DVD, and surely it's not helping when BD players are priced globally at US$600-1000 and BD movies at US$30-60, even in holiday season.

DVD is the dominant home video format worldwide no thanks to overpriced DVD movies, since 9 out of 10 DVD users gobally chooses not to buy them, but rather to inexpensive DVD players, recorders and blank discs; Blu-ray is still a lot distant to match such favourable circunstances gobally.

At least when DVD was released in 1997, prices for DVD movies were slightly higher than VHS movies, not only in U.S. but all around the world, which allowed consumers to view DVD as an affordable option, even when the players were still expensive, yet they were driven by greed when overpricing DVD movies in the last five years, and they choose to continue this pricing model with even more overpriced BD movies... again I'm talking about worldwide prices, not in the U.S.

There's nothing wrong with expensive hardware, but what's the point of spending money in a player even if it's cheap, if the movies are still very expensive. They could've choose to enmend that by lowering worldwide prices for BD movies, even for DVD movies as it's a "lower resolution" product, allowing to built up customer loyalty towards BD, and made it up in mass global sales, but they choose not to do so, and indeed there are too many people, that are tired of being exploited with overpriced products, which aren't excent of eventual failure.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 09 Jun 2008 @ 19:47

759.6.2008 22:14

OK, Joseph Consumer, not Joe Consumer - slightly up-scale.

Touche!

- nopcbs

Quote:
Originally posted by nopcbs:
On the Horizon is the Toshiba technology that will list at $200 and, no dount, promptly drop to under $150. The technology (whether just very good or excellent)will work with EVERY DVD.

What would you buy as Joe User?
Joe User would ignore the new Toshiba SRT players and get the $39 upconverter.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.d...5584897

769.6.2008 22:25

Wow!

Blu Ray/HD-DVD are simply not as big an improvement over up-converted DVD as the latter was over VHS. You need to go look at some VHS tapes on your "big" screen (over 26") set if you think that is true. And I don't mean from 20 feet away. It just is not the case and it's not just lines of resolution. The HD formats are a definite and significant improvement with the right software vs. up-converted DVD, but not overwhelming on normal sized screens (50" and smaller)like DVD was vs. VHS.



Quote:
Wow to be ignorant and pride yourself on it. BD-HD technology is just as much better then DVD's as VHS was to DVD, upconverting is just a joke making a high low res picture higher doesn't make it better it just converts it higher and can make it worst in some cases.

Super Res will also be dead and not fly. Why would I spend a lot of monies for a better upconversion method (algorithms) this isn't true HD and definitely isn't in the same ball park as BD, it is just a better way to upconvert and you need special gear to achieve it. Again Toshiba is falling well below the mark as they did with HD-DVD's which has cost them big. I guess Toshiba is going for broke now.

Here is a good article on Super Resolution:
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/05/09/toshiba_cell_strategy/

Now you can buck change that is you prerogative but that doesn't change facts no matter what your bias is, like hating Sony so bad you won't buy a good product from them. I hate Sony too but their TV's are some of the best so I consider buying them and BD is in that same light.

Originally posted by ematrix:
First of all, any kind of storage media isn't infallible, yet chip memories and magnetic storage media withstands a higher resilience than optical discs, certanly users don't worry about typical disc defects such as scratches and fingerprints... even movie studios store films digital masters on HDDs, since currently it's the most reliable way to preserve them.

Even the hard coating on BD discs, granted is more resistant than DVD discs, yet isn't infallible; also the inner layer on optical discs could oxidate if it wasn't sealed properly, regardless if you rarely reproduce the discs, and you have taken care of them to prevent exposure to dust, sunlight, heat, etc.

The fact is that optical discs with more than 50GB storage capable it's still under development, and it won't be a reality anytime soon. But HDD with 1TB or greater with long term reliable storage capability are availible today, as well as Flash drives with 32GB storage capability. Granted that it's pricy to get them, but worth the expense.
Here we go again that pride thing with a misguided lack of knowledge. Disk arrays provide very large storage capability but that doesnít make it more reliable it just makes it larger. They still have to do a very slow and awkward tape backup(s) or have redundant arrays off site to protect this storage using RAID technology. They could use an array of optical drives and some do. Once you store to an optical you can put it away and be assured it will remain reliable recovery, thatís is totally not true with HDDís or MAG tapes, unless of course you are a real moron that doesnít know how to handle and take care of the media like putting it in the Sun or pinching the disc(s) or scratching the layer(s) buy laying it on the floor and sliding it around like a wake board. If stupidity is your argument give it up but again that doesnít change the facts. Oh and buy the way I think it was Magnavox demoíd a 1TB BD drive in Australia a year ago so they arenít very far away.

The bottom line is that BD will be the new format as DVDís were in their childhood Super-Res isnít going to change that. DVDís will be around for some time to come too. So arguing who sold more by a date or what prices were doesnít really matter at all. You have a choice keep up with technology or being happy with the old and there is nothing wrong with still enjoying DVDís. People when they see how much nicer HD is are going to side with HD that is happening now and as the prices drop there will be even more of an insurgence to that market.

779.6.2008 22:38

No matter what we say here,which view point we take, it is the consuming public that decides which venue will succeed.As far as I can tell, the dust has not settled yet, and I have no clear vision of which way we are headed, only that SD DVD is here to stay for awhile.


"The flimsier the product,the higher the price"
Ferengi 82nd rule of aqusition


7810.6.2008 10:25
nhl2005
Inactive

Is someone still bitter that HDDVD died?

Look at the article there are only 9% of homes with HDTV's. The whole HDTV thing is still in its infancy. Why would people buy bluray if they don't even have a HDTV. Also the selection of movies on blueray is not that extensive yet. It will take time as more people get HDTV's. Why would you want an upscaling DVD player for your new HDTV. Thats like buying a ferrari and taking the engine out and putting a 1969 volkswagon engine in as a replacement.

7910.6.2008 21:40

Originally posted by nhl2005:
Why would you want an upscaling DVD player for your new HDTV. Thats like buying a ferrari and taking the engine out and putting a 1969 volkswagon engine in as a replacement.
Because ematrix & nopcbs says it's the best and they really know what they are talking about. In fact why even buy HDTV's maybe someone like Toshiba will make a upscale unit to convert my SDTV to HD. LOL I'm waiting for HD movies on flash drives too wouldn't that be the bomb, $100 per movie I'll sign up for that and they will last forever. HeHeHe....

By the way it was a Porsche 914 that had the Volkswagon engine in it not a Ferrari, but how stupid that was too. :)

8011.6.2008 23:41

until br players come to $100 or less, no thanks

8117.6.2008 20:56

HD DVD is tons better than BluRay any day. Cheap players, inexpensive discs, and many came as both HD and standard DVD discs in the same package. Upconverted video is nearly the same quality. I saw zero reason for BluRay to "win" anything. In my own seeing, BluRay LOST the format war - BluRay was only better at giving away BD discs. On the other hand, MILLIONS of HD discs were being purchased. Luckily some few new HD titles are still being made, and tons are still available for purchase, so I can build up a nice HD DVD selection. I hope that the people will opt for a revolution and show that BluRay is not wanted, and instead we want HD DVD. Write to all the movie studios asking for HD DVD versions of the movies you like! Tell them you are trying to buy it in HD DVD but can only find BluRay versions - and you DONT WANT BluRay, you want HD DVD. Then the revolution will happen for real!

8217.6.2008 21:15

Nopcbs does not say that up-converted DVD is better than HD-DVD or Blu Ray, at their best. What I do say (and it is true) is the up-converted DVD is plenty good enough for the vast majority of people (surveys support this as do buying patterns), that a lot of old movie re-issues in HD format are barely, if at all, better than up-converted DVD (been there, done that) and, frankly, Blu Ray players and Blu Ray movies are over-priced for what you get...especially the players. And that $200 Wal-Mart Blu Ray player, well that's a $300 player that Wal-Mart will give you a $100 Wal-Mart gift card for if you buy it, as a bribe. Sell it for $200 out-right and then maybe we are starting to get real on pricing. (But a Magnavox??? How long will that last?) I took the same bribe from Sony on a PS3 and got it for $300 and I still feel un-clean for having done it.

As for the Toshiba technology, we will see what that is about come fall. And the marketplace will decide, unlike the case with Blu Ray vs. HD DVD where studio bribery decided the issue to the sorrow of the buying public.

- nopcbs

Quote:
Originally posted by nhl2005:
Why would you want an upscaling DVD player for your new HDTV. Thats like buying a ferrari and taking the engine out and putting a 1969 volkswagon engine in as a replacement.
Because ematrix & nopcbs says it's the best and they really know what they are talking about. In fact why even buy HDTV's maybe someone like Toshiba will make a upscale unit to convert my SDTV to HD. LOL I'm waiting for HD movies on flash drives too wouldn't that be the bomb, $100 per movie I'll sign up for that and they will last forever. HeHeHe....

By the way it was a Porsche 914 that had the Volkswagon engine in it not a Ferrari, but how stupid that was too. :)

8318.6.2008 8:27

nhl2005, correction, only 9% of the households that have HDTV will buy Blue Ray. If only 9% of the US households had HDTV there would be trouble. Regular broadcasting goes away early next year.

8418.6.2008 17:15

Originally posted by kokuryu:
you DONT WANT BluRay, you want HD DVD. Then the revolution will happen for real!

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