AfterDawn: Tech news

"Blu-ray is a bag of hurt," says Apple

Written by Andre Yoskowitz (Google+) @ 15 Oct 2008 14:51 User comments (67)

"Blu-ray is a bag of hurt," says Apple Apple CEO Steve Jobs has confirmed that the company will not be bringing Blu-ray drives to its Mac laptops any time soon, or at least until "things settle down."
"Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt," stated Jobs. "It's great to watch the movies, but the licensing of the tech is so complex, we're waiting till things settle down and Blu-ray takes off in the marketplace."

Because the licenses are so complex, and the drives would push up the price of their laptops, Jobs does not want to add the drives to his companies notebooks any time soon. If demand grows however, the company will consider adding them later to new models.

As an alternative, Apple has been pushing its own HD downloads, sold through their iTunes platform.

In an effort to promote Blu-ray, Sony last month took out an ad in Wired magazine which included a free Blu-ray disc of Coma, a new crime series.

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67 user comments

115.10.2008 15:35

instead of offering br they steer people to itunes, what a surprise

i wonder why no one else finds the licensing complicated.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 15 Oct 2008 @ 15:37

215.10.2008 15:40

I am a Mac OS X, Linux, and Windows user and I think this is a big mistake, especially with the gimped Apple TV doing as poorly as it is.

If any hardware company can weather this recession, it's Apple, but not if it continues to push $2,500 notebooks with $800 parts that can be realized with a Hackintosh.

315.10.2008 15:53

Originally posted by jetyi83:
instead of offering br they steer people to itunes, what a surprise

i wonder why no one else finds the licensing complicated.
Exactly what I was thinking.

If a hardware manufacturer like Asus has no problems with licensing and can put a BluRay drive in their laptops, why can't Apple?

They want to protect their cash cow - iTunes.

I think Steve Jobs' pancreatic cancer has metastasized to his brain.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 15 Oct 2008 @ 15:56

415.10.2008 17:16
13thHouR
Inactive

Originally posted by DieMPAA:
I am a Mac OS X, Linux, and Windows user and I think this is a big mistake, especially with the gimped Apple TV doing as poorly as it is.[/url]
Because Linix is open source they OS will NEVER be allowed a licence to use blu-ray as the DRM masters cannot dictate their DRM masking rootkits to hide the code unlike they can with windows and apple through the DMCA.

How much do you think Apple and M$ have to pay for the "privilege" of infesting ppl's computers with malware?

Why do you think Vista is bloated with DRM?

Read: http://www.eff.org/issues/digital-video

Schneier: Why Microsoft Sold Out Consumers in Vista
Quote:
Today, the PC industry needs Hollywood more than Hollywood needs the PC. Most consumers rely on traditional consumer electronics devices to view DVDs and TV content, but companies like Microsoft are betting on the converged digital home and desperately want a bigger piece of the media device market. Because of the DMCA, Microsoft has to get permission to build devices compatible with Hollywood's DRMed content. So when Hollywood demanded that Microsoft lard Vista with restrictions to access high-def DVD and digital cable content, the software giant was in a weak bargaining position.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 15 Oct 2008 @ 17:21

515.10.2008 17:23

Well I am as far from a apple fan as you can get but I still like there direction. Anything that gets us closer to digital delivery of movies makes me happy.

615.10.2008 17:55

apple better hope that ISPs don't continue their recent bandwidth caps. .... That's gonna hinder their hd downloads more than the "difficult licencing" ever will be.

715.10.2008 19:30

More like ''a bag of money''. All the DRM'd hardware, software, peripherals, CABLES (?)...I'm waiting 'til my underwear and chair cushion are DRM'd to make sure it's MY butt in MY chair viewing content. There are no ends to flags and such control. Keep It Simple Stooopid....now ask me what I think of HD and all the associated DRM involved with it.

815.10.2008 20:05

All this is, is a game of put your hand in my pocket. Each and every corporation in the PC or Media world does that. Apple may be taken a backseat because they want to protect their beloved iTunes. But the reality is, if Blu-Ray does take off how much more are they going to take from their customers. Like somebody already pointed out, a $2500 notebook with maybe less then $800 isn't going to be attractive at all with a Blu-Ray rom or burner or whatever formats they release with it.

915.10.2008 22:23
AXT
Inactive

That unfortunate, I recently purchased a blu-ray drive and I couldn't be more satisfied.

1015.10.2008 23:02

Quote:
Because Linix is open source they OS will NEVER be allowed a licence to use blu-ray as the DRM masters cannot dictate their DRM masking rootkits to hide the code unlike they can with windows and apple through the DMCA.


Wow that comment was so full of fail it ain't funny, Sure Linux will never get a license, because you don't need one. PS3+Linux Equals *Gasp* Blu-ray on Linux.

Another equation. Me+$300+AnyOSisodamechosetouse=GGW-H20L
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 15 Oct 2008 @ 23:03

1116.10.2008 1:05

Originally posted by lamain:
Well I am as far from a apple fan as you can get but I still like there direction. Anything that gets us closer to digital delivery of movies makes me happy.
what the *bleep*?
Why?
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 17 Oct 2008 @ 7:47

1216.10.2008 1:36

The reason to this is that Sony will charge a licensing royalty fee for its use of blu-ray drives. I have a PS3 but the blu-ray drive wasn't the main motive why i bought the console. I prefer DVD over blu-ray or until blank media become affordable.

1316.10.2008 3:07
AXT
Inactive

Originally posted by lamain:
Well I am as far from a apple fan as you can get but I still like there direction. Anything that gets us closer to digital delivery of movies makes me happy.
Try downloading a 30GB movie in a reasonable time not including extras. Physical media will not be going anywhere any time soon if you seek the highest visual standards.

If your happy with sub-par encodes from apple then so be it.

1416.10.2008 4:58
13thHouR
Inactive

Originally posted by DXR88:
Wow that comment was so full of fail it ain't funny, Sure Linux will never get a license, because you don't need one. PS3+Linux Equals *Gasp* Blu-ray on Linux.

Another equation. Me+$300+AnyOSisodamechosetouse=GGW-H20L

so you think that because the PS3 can run linux ppl that have pc's running this GUI will also be able to view Hi-Def media, OMG is that what you really believe?

you do realise companies that produce media players like Cyberlink have been forcibly stopped from supporting linux by the MPAA and Blu-Ray Association scum bags, using the DMCA. If you are using blu-ray on a linux set-up, it is illegal and a criminal/federal offence.

There are tools to enable you to view the content like Geexbox but you are breaking the law doing so.

http://www.geexbox.org/en/index.html
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 16 Oct 2008 @ 6:34

1516.10.2008 6:20

Quote:
Because Linix is open source they OS will NEVER be allowed a licence to use blu-ray as the DRM masters cannot dictate their DRM masking rootkits to hide the code unlike they can with windows and apple through the DMCA.

Thats not to say there is no way of doing it.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats/BluRayAndHDDVD

1616.10.2008 6:34
13thHouR
Inactive

Originally posted by plazma247:
Quote:
Because Linix is open source they OS will NEVER be allowed a licence to use blu-ray as the DRM masters cannot dictate their DRM masking rootkits to hide the code unlike they can with windows and apple through the DMCA.

Thats not to say there is no way of doing it.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats/BluRayAndHDDVD

very true, but very illegal at the same time. It's no wonder that Apple wants nothing to do with Blu-Ray, not many ppl in the industry want to have to pay extortionate licences and agree to cripple their software with DRM at the beset of the media industries/Hollywood(The MPAA Members, see my Sig).

Originally posted by plazma247's link:
The AACS 'Digital Rights Management' system in most HD-DVD and all Blu-Ray discs attempts to stop consumers from exercising fair use rights, including:

* Playing purchased Blu-Ray and HD DVD films using Open Source software.
* Playing films using standard digital (DVI) or analog (VGA) cables and monitors, which generally do not support HDCP DRM, without a 75% reduction in resolution.
* Fast forwarding or skipping advertisements.
* Playing imported films, including when local equivalents may be overpriced or not available.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 16 Oct 2008 @ 6:45

1716.10.2008 7:03

You say it's illegal, but yet your against the MPAA and RIAA. So your for pirating stuff which is illegal but your against blu-ray on linux which is also illegal... which side are you on?

1816.10.2008 7:27

Does make you wonder if this is actually something more to do with the fact that microsoft and apple went to see sony last year to licence the technology/get a drive and something happened and they all walked away from the table... then the xbox was going to get a asus then liteon drive then something happened there to and then last week news that it may get a samsung drive.

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/15627.cfm

It would appear the micrsoft/apple camp has actually expressed an intrest in blueray more than once, but every time its either blocked or priced out of their range... its like someone, cough sony maybe see's and advantage in them not getting one.

1916.10.2008 12:43

Yeah its called stifling the competition using over priced Licensing fee's. Sony thinks it will drive more money there way if anything it will do the exact opposite.

I do not believe Blu-ray will ever See the light of day at least not the 14 years DVD has seen.

2016.10.2008 13:01

DVD can't be overthrown just yet, people still use VHS tapes isn't that amazing? The DVD Forum will not give into blu-ray. After the sad demise of HD-DVD, i don't think blu-ray will ever dominate the market without the DVD Forums involvement.

2116.10.2008 13:51
atomicxl
Inactive

LOL @ Jobs mentioning price. Like Apple is known for low prices. Especially their PC division.

2216.10.2008 20:59

like some said already, apple wants to go all the way with itunes till blu-ray reaches a point wich it will be as necessary as dvd has become nowadays + picture that price tag!!

2316.10.2008 21:29

Originally posted by AXR:
Try downloading a 30GB movie in a reasonable time not including extras. Physical media will not be going anywhere any time soon if you seek the highest visual standards.
With downloads specific to the consumer you don't need 30gbs.

Strip out all the unnecessary stuff and that 30gbs shrinks
(a lot of straight Blu-ray rips I've seen turn out to be somewhere around the 18gb - 22gb size).

You don't need all the audio tracks and soon you will be able to specify which form of audio you want/need (why pay for stuff like Dolby True HD etc when you only have - or only want - vanilla Dolby Digital?) saving a lot of bandwidth.

Similarly all those who claim to hate the extras as a complete waste of time will be able to have their wish and dump a lot of that used up space.

Those with a 720p HD TV will be able to select specific to that too, thereby freeing up yet more bandwidth - and those who see little or no difference on their 32" - 50" HD TVs will be able to opt for the cheaper, slightly lower res, option.

I don't know whos encodes you have been looking at lately but there are a lot of excellent quality 720p encodes @ DVD sizes & a lot of excellent 1080p encodes @ dual layer DVD sizes.

I suspect the coming commercially available encodes are likely to be even more sophisticated & of higher quality too.

With todays net connections a single layer DVD sized HD movie is a credible option and so is a DVD9 sized one too
(my 'up to 8mb' connection usually gives me just over 8gbs in 3hrs on a good torrent).
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 16 Oct 2008 @ 21:32

2416.10.2008 22:00

Apple is not smart enough to install it but AMEX now makes a portable drive for it for $268. Whats the dead Apple?

2517.10.2008 2:23

Its funny, i have never heard the phrase big bag o hurt.... although i have heard a version that end in S%^T.

Could it be they are actually saying blueray is just plain crap and that itunes downloads are better.

lol itunes sucks ass, my girlfriend would have thrown her ipod classic out if winamp hadnt sorted the support, all i got was but why doesnt it let me...

Its more like "ITUNES is a big steamin pile of err.. yeah hurt" haha

2617.10.2008 7:29

It is the same old game. Apple did not get the deal they wanted because they were too small. Sony is trying to fire up interest, and force Apple do do it the Sony way. Apple is fighting back claiming their lawyers are retards. I agree with Apple. Their users will believe Apple HD technology is better/more cool than Sony's. Apple users are believers they really do not want to think.

I could only hope a war starts up between those two arrogant low lifes.

2721.10.2008 1:59
uruz7
Inactive

That's OK!But take a closer look following link,It's great to DVD and PSP converter

spam removed

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 21 Oct 2008 @ 8:28

2822.10.2008 4:02

I hope this has thought Apple to think twice before supporting anything developed (or co-developed) by Sony... I mean, if indeed Apple had any interest in incorporating Blu-ray on their products, at least Sony should have given them a good deal, as appreation for their loyalty and support during the HD format war; in the other hand maybe Apple thinks that BD isn't worth it after all.

2922.10.2008 8:35

ematrix, I believe your view is pretty naive. That is true if you think Apple was taken advantage of by big evil Sony. Apple was playing the field they were supporting both platforms. I am sure they can do OK without Blu-Ray otherwise they would not be dragging their feet. Sony has figured that out but they don’t want to give them a deal they would like. They want Apple to eat a little dirt for not supporting them from the beginning. Apple doesn’t see it that way.

It is just a pissing match between two unethical weasel companies.
It is just business as usual.

3022.10.2008 10:42
varnull
Inactive

Just a quick FYI.. os-x or leopard or whatever they are calling it isn't linux.. It;s closed source proprietary unix.. more closely related to BSD than linux.. apple could have the technology to adopt the format, but they just greedy as per.. Same as the others in this "4 years left on the format" disk system.

Apple don't support open source and open standards.. like M$ they want to sell you their product and make it damn hard to use anything they don't "approve of" with it.. to the exclusion of everybody who doesn't pay to be in the club..

blu-ray will fizzle out into the corner with dvd-audio.. apple will continue to nibble away at the M$ user base by selling an alternative to M$ "cool" lifestyle to those who can afford it, and the rest of us will carry on in open source world not giving two damns about any of it unless it infringes on our rights.. and then we will bite.

3122.10.2008 14:02

varnull, I heard from an unrelyable source that Vista used a monfied linux kernal. Is there any truth to that?

Vista has done more for the Mac than anything Apple has done. For me if I was to make the plunge, I would go all the way instead of trusting some hacked code.

I am happy with Open Office. That takes care of many concerns with most of my day to day issues. For my simple needs, I find it far superior to Office 2007. Unfortunatly, my main source of income runs only on a M$ platform. However, my normal day to day activities can work under Linux.

3222.10.2008 14:25
varnull
Inactive

I feel that.. I'm lucky that my work can all be done on linux/unix.

Vista doesn't use linux.. it's an NT 6.0.6000 or 6001 kernel depending on service pack. Nothing new there then. Monolithic architecture where the future path of everything else seems to be going modular microkernel architecture. Same old NT flaws and bugs.. As usual M$ are about 5 years behind the chase.. and wouldn't know how to cut to it if we put a bomb under them.. I think people see vista as linux like is because of the messed up permissions they seem to have blatantly stolen (and messed up) from OpenBSD.. Again.. nothing new there. I don't think M$ have ever actually had an original idea.. It all existed before you see it as a "new" feature of some M$ software. I remember a GUI desktop system when I was at school.. Xerox office system or something.. had a mouse and drop down menus and icons.. Like cbm/amiga. Even had the little engine animation when something was happening...

I love OO.. especially Impress (and boy does it impress when you use it after powerpoint).. add a couple more things.. like scribus and abiword and the need for M$ starts to fade.

I set up machines running xp for people now containing completely open source freeware.. and very rarely do they "need" a lump of M$ software..

Fista has been great for us so far.. average fista hardware will run linux heavies like sabayon without a flutter.. as long as the hardware manufacturers haven't been "got at" to lock the bios to fista.. as we are starting to see with some laptops.. expect class action lawsuits from the fsf sometime in the future over that little bombshell.

It's about education.. I install a new linux machine for somebody and the first thing I tell them is.. "This is a computer.. here is the on button".. and ten point out that the first time they saw a computer it was probably running windows nursemaid and it was all strange and unfamiliar.. It's only a habit using windows and finding it easy.. as you know.. it's actually the other way round.. linux is easy and sleek and windows is slow clunky, feels like something from the 90's (which of course it is) and really hard work.

Actually vista really reminds me of the early os2 ..like BeOS in the 80's.. GUI implementations.. all over the place and buggy .. not forgetting it was also a permissions nightmare.. I don't know why anybody would buy it.. It's not good enough for a free OS.. If it was open source freeware it would probably have about 50 hardcore experimentalists using it... rather like Kororaa, Feather and SkyOS.. It certainly wouldn't be seen as good enough by the larger open source community and would fail.

Whatever.. all these M$ machines keep me in a job, so I mustn't complain too much or everybody will be using linux and not needing my services. There isn't enough work in the unix server world to keep food on the table with all the businesses folding around here. Lost another regular this month.. waremart.. I wanted their database server..
a tasty real sun systems 8 cpu solaris machine.. but the bailiffs had it.. drat.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 22 Oct 2008 @ 14:40

3322.10.2008 14:35

Originally posted by Mez:
ematrix, I believe your view is pretty naive. That is true if you think Apple was taken advantage of by big evil Sony. Apple was playing the field they were supporting both platforms. I am sure they can do OK without Blu-Ray otherwise they would not be dragging their feet. Sony has figured that out but they don’t want to give them a deal they would like. They want Apple to eat a little dirt for not supporting them from the beginning. Apple doesn’t see it that way.

It is just a pissing match between two unethical weasel companies.
It is just business as usual.
Apple was playing the field they were supporting both platforms?Apple should eat a little dirt for not supporting Blu-ray from the beginning? Now that's wrong, when in fact Apple did supported only Blu-ray since 2005; and since then they're part of the BDA and did participate in the promotion and marketing of the format.

Maybe Apple's initial commitment meant to eventually replace SuperDrives with Blu-Ray drives, and that Mac OS X’s optical media support would include Blu-Ray but not HD-DVD, etc. But either Apple at one point thought that BD wasn't worth it after all and rather support their own products, or Sony didn't offered them a good deal to begin with; either way no Blu-ray for Apple, thanks.

3422.10.2008 14:43
varnull
Inactive

Maybe they think by the time they tool up and buy the licenses for the software and drm it will be an obsolete format anyway?
That would make sense. I'm pretty sure apple have a better insight into what's coming next than we do.

3522.10.2008 14:47

Originally posted by varnull:
Just a quick FYI.. os-x or leopard or whatever they are calling it isn't linux.. It;s closed source proprietary unix.. more closely related to BSD than linux.. apple could have the technology to adopt the format, but they just greedy as per.. Same as the others in this "4 years left on the format" disk system.

Apple don't support open source and open standards.. like M$ they want to sell you their product and make it damn hard to use anything they don't "approve of" with it.. to the exclusion of everybody who doesn't pay to be in the club..

blu-ray will fizzle out into the corner with dvd-audio.. apple will continue to nibble away at the M$ user base by selling an alternative to M$ "cool" lifestyle to those who can afford it, and the rest of us will carry on in open source world not giving two damns about any of it unless it infringes on our rights.. and then we will bite.
In my view they have gone the BSD way simply because there is o requirement to make the derivatives Open Source also as in Linux. It is BSD - not sure Open or Free - with their own GUI. I have seen n number of magazine articles aimed at die hard Mac users on how to fix the glitches in the initial release of OS X with command line usage.

3623.10.2008 5:59

Originally posted by varnull:
Maybe they think by the time they tool up and buy the licenses for the software and drm it will be an obsolete format anyway?
That would make sense. I'm pretty sure apple have a better insight into what's coming next than we do.
Maybe Apple do- I've always had the impression that they are great at hype more than anything else nowadays.

Varnull, I must say your posts are always excellent. I must admit I personally haven't found Linux necessarily "easy and sleek" as I have to use peculiar command line interfacing on a regular basis like the DOS days. It seems like you have to be a bit of a boffin to get the best out of it. I could learn it but I just can't be stuffed. Consequently I've stuck with tweaked XP which runs my software, tv tunercard, Nvidia GFx card, games etc. ok. Can you recommend a version of Linux to experiment with- I've heard some are as top-heavy as tweaked XP anyway. Questions- will Linux run OO and Gimp faster? Can I find a program to run my HDTV tuner card on Linux?

Back on subject, a lot of this DRM stuff that's talked about confuses me. I recently built a comp with a BluRay/HD-DVD drive and HDMI out to a 1080p setup. Using tweaked XP it seems to be working fine, by the judicious use of four programs I'm even able to play recorded HD movies off of the raid array. Is some invisible switch gonna be thrown in the future which will cause all this (and the HDTV card) to come crashing down? (I know I'm a big noob :P ).
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Oct 2008 @ 10:31

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.


DSE VZ300-
Zilog Z80 CPU, 32KB RAM (16K+16K cartridge), video processor 6847, 2KB video RAM, 16 colours (text mode), 5.25" FDD

3723.10.2008 8:18

Originally posted by Jemborg:
Back on subject, a lot of this DRM stuff that's talked about confuses me. I recently built a comp with a BluRay/HD-DVD drive and HDMI out to a 1080p setup. Using tweaked XP it seems to be working fine, by the judicious use of four programs I'm even able to play recorded HD movies off of the raid array. Is some invisible switch gonna be thrown in the future which will cause all this (and the HDTV card) to come crashing down? (I know I'm a big noob :P ).
I have a similar setup with a BD writer/HD DVD reader. As long as you have a certain well-known program from Slysoft and you keep it updated you should have no worries.

I think Apple's problem lies with HDCP. None of their hardware - graphics cards and apple cinema displays - have any HDCP certification. It's HDCP that they don't want to implement in their Macs.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Oct 2008 @ 8:40

3823.10.2008 10:58

If Its HDCP. good I hate that BS of an Intel Trick.

Dumbest mistake ever on Intel's part.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 23 Oct 2008 @ 11:04

Powered By

3923.10.2008 15:00

Originally posted by error5:
Originally posted by Jemborg:
Back on subject, a lot of this DRM stuff that's talked about confuses me. I recently built a comp with a BluRay/HD-DVD drive and HDMI out to a 1080p setup. Using tweaked XP it seems to be working fine, by the judicious use of four programs I'm even able to play recorded HD movies off of the raid array. Is some invisible switch gonna be thrown in the future which will cause all this (and the HDTV card) to come crashing down? (I know I'm a big noob :P ).
I have a similar setup with a BD writer/HD DVD reader. As long as you have a certain well-known program from Slysoft and you keep it updated you should have no worries.

I think Apple's problem lies with HDCP. None of their hardware - graphics cards and apple cinema displays - have any HDCP certification. It's HDCP that they don't want to implement in their Macs.
Thanks error5, I know what you referring to. Well, I guess that's some sort of relief. Nice to have a burner, I'm waiting till the whole shebang- units and blanks- get cheaper myself. After referencing your second paragraph I'm glad I got a HDMI out card.

Cheers.

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.


DSE VZ300-
Zilog Z80 CPU, 32KB RAM (16K+16K cartridge), video processor 6847, 2KB video RAM, 16 colours (text mode), 5.25" FDD

4023.10.2008 15:24

Originally posted by error5:
I have a similar setup with a BD writer/HD DVD reader. As long as you have a certain well-known program from Slysoft and you keep it updated you should have no worries.

I think Apple's problem lies with HDCP. None of their hardware - graphics cards and apple cinema displays - have any HDCP certification. It's HDCP that they don't want to implement in their Macs.
...and without HDCP there is no BluRay playback. Therein lies the problem.

There is a workaround though as a friend of mine demonstrated recently:

He runs the aforementioned Slysoft application in BootCamp. He can play BD movies using Power DVD off an external BD drive hooked up to his Mac Pro.

4123.10.2008 17:02

Originally posted by Jemborg:
Originally posted by error5:
Originally posted by Jemborg:
Back on subject, a lot of this DRM stuff that's talked about confuses me. I recently built a comp with a BluRay/HD-DVD drive and HDMI out to a 1080p setup. Using tweaked XP it seems to be working fine, by the judicious use of four programs I'm even able to play recorded HD movies off of the raid array. Is some invisible switch gonna be thrown in the future which will cause all this (and the HDTV card) to come crashing down? (I know I'm a big noob :P ).
I have a similar setup with a BD writer/HD DVD reader. As long as you have a certain well-known program from Slysoft and you keep it updated you should have no worries.

I think Apple's problem lies with HDCP. None of their hardware - graphics cards and apple cinema displays - have any HDCP certification. It's HDCP that they don't want to implement in their Macs.
Thanks error5, I know what you referring to. Well, I guess that's some sort of relief. Nice to have a burner, I'm waiting till the whole shebang- units and blanks- get cheaper myself. After referencing your second paragraph I'm glad I got a HDMI out card.

Cheers.
!!!!! HANG ON !!!!!

I built my above rig using the reliable Gigabyte GA-G33M-DS2R mATX. Is it possible that the onboard sound is not HDCP certified ??

Does this explain why I was only able to get DD ProLogicII out of the coax into the amp when playing HD movies ?? (Admittedly it seems to be better quality than DVD PLII)

The above mentioned SlySoft application seemed fix this. I've got DTS now on "Jumper"- it auto selected. Would this be what happened?

Please, if you know the answer let me know- I would be in your debt.

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.


DSE VZ300-
Zilog Z80 CPU, 32KB RAM (16K+16K cartridge), video processor 6847, 2KB video RAM, 16 colours (text mode), 5.25" FDD

4223.10.2008 20:54

Originally posted by Jemborg:
!!!!! HANG ON !!!!!

I built my above rig using the reliable Gigabyte GA-G33M-DS2R mATX. Is it possible that the onboard sound is not HDCP certified ??

Does this explain why I was only able to get DD ProLogicII out of the coax into the amp when playing HD movies ?? (Admittedly it seems to be better quality than DVD PLII)

The above mentioned SlySoft application seemed fix this. I've got DTS now on "Jumper"- it auto selected. Would this be what happened?

Please, if you know the answer let me know- I would be in your debt.
The reason why you got the Jumper DTS soundtrack (instead of DD) on the coax connection is this: the Jumper BluRay release doesn't have an English Dolby Digital/DD+/DD True HD soundtrack. It has a DTS HD Master Audio soundtrack. You got the "Core" DTS track that's embedded in the DTS HD MA track.

Sorry but it had nothing to do with Slysoft or bypassing HDCP.

In order to get the high-def advanced audio on a PC setup your choices are very limited at this time. Remember that you will need an HDMI connection to your receiver to get Dolby True HD or DTS HD Master Audio. You won't get these from a digital coax or SPDIF connection.

According to anandtech.com no GPU released this year will support advanced audio. The only way is an HDMI sound card like the Auzentech X-Tension. Basically you connect the HDMI output from your video card to the HDMI input of the X-Tension. The HDMI output of the X-Tension carries both 1080p video and advanced audio to your receiver. The anandtech article explains this very well.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3411

A card with one single HDMI output that has both advanced audio on a Protected Audio Path and HDCP 1080p video will be the last piece of the HD HTPC puzzle.

4324.10.2008 6:01

Many many thanks error5, just a quick reply for now as I'm tired atm and only just had a chance to skim the info.

I only have a 5.1 receiver and am not really prepared for the expense of the whole 7.1 extra speakers new receiver blah blah blah and I have been really quite happy with my setup as it is.

I would be happy to stay with 5.1 but I'm not too keen on having to default to DD PrologicII.

The Gigabyte GA-G33M-DS2R mATX onboard's sound is a Realtek High Definition Audio device (capable of 7.1), on the box it claims "Blu-ray/HD-DVD Full Rate Lossless Audio". So in conjunction with Cyberlink software I might just go analogue to the receiver. it has an excellent s/n ratio as it is. Chatting to my nephew a while ago, who works in audio chip design, this seems to be a quite reasonable proposition- he just said I might be better off using the analogue outputs (now I suspect why).

Please let me know what you reckon- I'll keep you informed of what transpires if you want.

Thanks again , regards.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 24 Oct 2008 @ 6:02

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.


DSE VZ300-
Zilog Z80 CPU, 32KB RAM (16K+16K cartridge), video processor 6847, 2KB video RAM, 16 colours (text mode), 5.25" FDD

4424.10.2008 9:12

Originally posted by Jemborg:
The Gigabyte GA-G33M-DS2R mATX onboard's sound is a Realtek High Definition Audio device (capable of 7.1), on the box it claims "Blu-ray/HD-DVD Full Rate Lossless Audio". So in conjunction with Cyberlink software I might just go analogue to the receiver. it has an excellent s/n ratio as it is. Chatting to my nephew a while ago, who works in audio chip design, this seems to be a quite reasonable proposition- he just said I might be better off using the analogue outputs (now I suspect why).

Please let me know what you reckon- I'll keep you informed of what transpires if you want.

Thanks again , regards.
From what I've read the analog connections should do just fine but the audio is downsampled to 16-bit/48KHz (from the full bitrate ~ 24-bit/192KHz). I would check with Realtek and to see if they've fixed the downsampling issue with new firmware.

In the end it may not even matter as the downsampled audio can sound really good depending on your setup.

4524.10.2008 17:42

Cheers error5, that's good news- and advice.

Gigabyte is good with updates but only had the R2.00 ver, the Realtek site had R2.07 ver- only 2 weeks old.

Both are very recent and I wonder if it connects with this at all:

http://www.cyberlink.com/eng/press_room/view_1725.html

and:

http://www.cyberlink.com/eng/press_room/view_1746.html

Not quite sure if it will translate to the analogue audio outputs...yet. Hopefully.

With a pair of decent comp speakers added for the sides I may achieve 7.1 after all! And at a tiny fraction of the cost the cartel expects me to pay for it. LOL.

Well, I have to go off and make/buy some cables now. It's a busy week in many respects. I hope you get email notification as I will post the results here in the next week or so.

Regards.


Its a lot easier being righteous than right.


DSE VZ300-
Zilog Z80 CPU, 32KB RAM (16K+16K cartridge), video processor 6847, 2KB video RAM, 16 colours (text mode), 5.25" FDD

4627.10.2008 11:14

So the invisible switch thrown. Even updating Power DVD, using a rented movie and Cyberlink's own check program saying everything is in the green... some new movies are failing to run. This seems because the whole HDCP DRM system is stuffed and even they can't get it to work properly.

That Slysoft app has to be used regardless I've found.

Still... WITH a Blu-ray in the drive run PowerDVD, load movie, go to configuration, under audio tab select "SPDIF", then under that select "DTS remix" (or 5.1) - hey presto DTS out the coax, regardless of whether it's recorded in HD Dolby or whatever.

Audio is coming out at 48Khz. But sounds great. Receiver doesn't seem to decode any higher rate anyway.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 27 Oct 2008 @ 11:15

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.


DSE VZ300-
Zilog Z80 CPU, 32KB RAM (16K+16K cartridge), video processor 6847, 2KB video RAM, 16 colours (text mode), 5.25" FDD

4727.10.2008 11:35

Originally posted by Jemborg:
So the invisible switch thrown. Even updating Power DVD, using a rented movie and Cyberlink's own check program saying everything is in the green... some new movies are failing to run. This seems because the whole HDCP DRM system is stuffed and even they can't get it to work properly.

That Slysoft app has to be used regardless I've found.

Still... WITH a Blu-ray in the drive run PowerDVD, load movie, go to configuration, under audio tab select "SPDIF", then under that select "DTS remix" (or 5.1) - hey presto DTS out the coax, regardless of whether it's recorded in HD Dolby or whatever.

Audio is coming out at 48Khz. But sounds great. Receiver doesn't seem to decode any higher rate anyway.
I know of some people who have totally abandoned Cyberlink in favor of ArcSoft's Total Media Theater:

http://www.arcsoft.com/products/totalmediatheatre/

Read the HTPC/BD Playback threads on avsforums.com.

4827.10.2008 12:01

Thanks man !!

I was wondering about the alternatives.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 27 Oct 2008 @ 12:07

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.


DSE VZ300-
Zilog Z80 CPU, 32KB RAM (16K+16K cartridge), video processor 6847, 2KB video RAM, 16 colours (text mode), 5.25" FDD

4927.10.2008 13:41
varnull
Inactive

The switches are there in fista and xp sp3 just waiting for the nod from Hollywood. Some OEM releases have had the switches thrown already..I suspect to see if the customers notice and make a fuss.

Particularly watch for topics about fista suddenly stopping doing things it was totally happy to do before a manufacturers/retailers update. SP1 doesn't seem to be the culprit.. To my knowledge (machines I have set up before update then had to roll back afterwards) so far HP and Acer have applied the switch .. hp it seems across the board, and acer only on certain laptop models..( I only have a total of about 12 fista machines to go on.. I don't support the $hit!) Watch them.. DRM applied after purchase is a disgrace.

5027.10.2008 14:01

The playback issues on HTPC's are usually related to player software bugs. From the posts on avsforums I get the impression that there are much less playback issues with ArcSoft TMT (compared to Cyberlink PDVD). As long as you have SlySoft running in the background most people using TMT report very few problems playing actual discs, rips and ISO's. Plus TMT integrates seamlessly into MCE 5.

5127.10.2008 14:27

Originally posted by varnull:
The switches are there in fista and xp sp3 just waiting for the nod from Hollywood. Some OEM releases have had the switches thrown already..I suspect to see if the customers notice and make a fuss.

Particularly watch for topics about fista suddenly stopping doing things it was totally happy to do before a manufacturers/retailers update. SP1 doesn't seem to be the culprit.. To my knowledge (machines I have set up before update then had to roll back afterwards) so far HP and Acer have applied the switch .. hp it seems across the board, and acer only on certain laptop models..( I only have a total of about 12 fista machines to go on.. I don't support the $hit!) Watch them.. DRM applied after purchase is a disgrace.
You're telling me baby- wouldn't a fuss be lovely, hey ?? But I don't think that it will just be the Joe Blows who will be complaining, it might be nVidia, LG etc. etc. as well (who might just feel double-crossed).

So that's what sp3 was really about? I should have realised. I won't use M$ Fista tho - not even for gaming. I've tooled enough with XP, getting it sweet, to go screwing with that bugbear.

But it seems to me the switches are already being thrown. Had to just go get the most recent update of "that Slysoft app" just to get Iron(y) Man running. And my gear is meant to be HDCP certified- even according to the Cyberlink checker program. I think they just want me to run out and buy a standalone device like a PS3 whatever. As long as I don't have a versatile pwning Media Centre comp. that I can do what I see fit with.

YOW!

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.


DSE VZ300-
Zilog Z80 CPU, 32KB RAM (16K+16K cartridge), video processor 6847, 2KB video RAM, 16 colours (text mode), 5.25" FDD

5227.10.2008 14:45

Originally posted by juankerr:
The playback issues on HTPC's are usually related to player software bugs. From the posts on avsforums I get the impression that there are much less playback issues with ArcSoft TMT (compared to Cyberlink PDVD). As long as you have SlySoft running in the background most people using TMT report very few problems playing actual discs, rips and ISO's. Plus TMT integrates seamlessly into MCE 5.
Hey Juan- could you supply me with a link? I went to that site an all I got was a whole lot of spruiking ads- with some links to some suss sites that made the WOT addon shriek bloody murder.

Maybe you're right about the software- and I will definitely look into that prog. But I dunno, as you can see from my above post, with the latest update from Slysoft the problem was fixed. So how could it be bugs in PowerDVD? It just seems to be occurring from the latest release movies- I have no worries with that prog with everything else.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 27 Oct 2008 @ 14:47

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.


DSE VZ300-
Zilog Z80 CPU, 32KB RAM (16K+16K cartridge), video processor 6847, 2KB video RAM, 16 colours (text mode), 5.25" FDD

5327.10.2008 14:50
varnull
Inactive

SP3 seems sweet enough.. I have installed it a few times (cracked and activated as is my norm for the cheapskates around here-- Don't ask. I will not provide information on how to completely disable updates or crack and activate XP) and it seems nice and stable..

I kill auto updates completely tho.. so i have no way to tell if those switches can be flicked by a M$ update or by installing some piece of software somewhere down the line..

As I won't have M$ software on any of my machines I just have to wait see now for any comebacks which seem drm related and do the forensics when they arrive...

Fista update enabling DRM and application disabling is a proven case for me.. I have seen it with my own eyes. Ended up bringing the bin/cue disk image home and burning it with k3b after failing to get fista to burn it with anything.. roxio/nero/imgburn.. all said "invalid format".. Rolled system back the day after to the one and only backed up (on cd) restore point and it all worked again.. Update (HP OEM) removed all restore points which I knew were there because I had made them 4 weeks earlier while installing software... Interesting isn't it.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 27 Oct 2008 @ 14:57

5427.10.2008 15:42

Originally posted by Jemborg:
Hey Juan- could you supply me with a link?
AVS HTPC Forum

Semi-Official BD and HD DVD on an HTPC Configuration/Playback FAQ

I suggest you post your playback problems there. You will likely get very good advice.

Guide To Building a High Definition HTPC

You motherboard is recommended under mATX Mid-Range.

Quote:
with the latest update from Slysoft the problem was fixed. So how could it be bugs in PowerDVD?
Keeping Slysoft updated is a must. My impression is that, all things being equal, PDVD tends to cause more problems. This is why ArcSoft TMT is beginning to rise up as the choice among HTPC builders.

5528.10.2008 3:40

Thanks for taking an interest guys. :)

Varnull, I personally won't ask you for cracks etc. I'm lucky enough to have a actual legit version of XP that has no problems with validation and updates. I'm happy enough to let it go as I believe that many of the updates really are about plugging security holes. It's kinda crackpot but I established for myself an order of install (after being frustrated before in the process).Roughly, switch off auto> manually install the things you want (eg. media player etc.)> install the sp3 iso> turn auto on again.

*noob alert* I am kinda interested in how one backs-up and reinstalls restore points tho. Also, got any idea on how to prevent IE from continually assuming it's often the default browser- yes disabled in "program access"? I kinda have the impression it's needed in certain circumstances but perhaps I'm wrong and I should just remove it completely.

Juan, those links are bookmarked, cheers good site. As a matter of principal I'm always interested in media software as long as I can avoid dreaded codec conflicts. Seems I've joined an exclusive club of geek de geeks who like mATX, haha, kind of like Goggo mobile enthusiasts. Tried the ASUS VM model mentioned- I had so much grief with it's reliability and patronizing responses from ASUS- just returning the same board to me with it's CMOS cleared (again). Perusing their own site showed this problem was chronic and occurring with it's HDMI version. These were the best boards available at the time. I was not interested in onboard graphics, I went with the Gainward 8600GT HDMI SilentFX fanless 512 DDR3. Tho quietness was a major consideration I wanted some ability to play games. With raid, the Realtek chip, the ability to expand and it's reliability the Gigabyte was the go regardless of the limited bios options. I whacked in 1066 DDR2 and OCed from 2.2 to 3 GHz no problemo.

Perhaps I should do a review, LOL- they might make me a moderator. (Just kidding).

Cyberlink have a version of PowerDVD for Linux I noticed.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 28 Oct 2008 @ 3:54

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.


DSE VZ300-
Zilog Z80 CPU, 32KB RAM (16K+16K cartridge), video processor 6847, 2KB video RAM, 16 colours (text mode), 5.25" FDD

5628.10.2008 6:28

Originally posted by Jemborg:
Cyberlink have a version of PowerDVD for Linux I noticed.
a) PowerDVD for Linux was annouced in 2004, and doesn't appear to have actually been released or changed since then
b) CyberLink doesn't appear to currently support a Linux version (at least for HD media)
c) The "Ultra" version, which is the only one to fully support BluRay and HD-DVD, definitely doesn't have a Linux version.

5728.10.2008 14:02

Originally posted by Jemborg:
I think they just want me to run out and buy a standalone device like a PS3 whatever...
Upon returning Iron(y) Man to the rental store tonight, I asked if they had complaints from customers about any Blu-rays not working.

"Yes, funnily enough, there's been a lot of complaints about Iron Man not working- something about a "format" incompatibility."

"Any of those PS3 owners?", I asked {hopefully).

"Why no", I was told.

So there are playback problems in other standalone (probably) devices but not $ony's!

So poeple who rent movies out might start complaining too eventually. I told them about DRM etc. and they seemed quite happy I had a program that got around this. LOL

I've read that "Batman: The Dark Night" is meant to be the coming champion, spearheading the push forward for Blu-ray in the marketplace. I wonder if they will DRM that up the wazoo too.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 28 Oct 2008 @ 14:06

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.


DSE VZ300-
Zilog Z80 CPU, 32KB RAM (16K+16K cartridge), video processor 6847, 2KB video RAM, 16 colours (text mode), 5.25" FDD

5828.10.2008 14:40
varnull
Inactive

Originally posted by plazma247:
Originally posted by Jemborg:
Cyberlink have a version of PowerDVD for Linux I noticed.
a) PowerDVD for Linux was annouced in 2004, and doesn't appear to have actually been released or changed since then
b) CyberLink doesn't appear to currently support a Linux version (at least for HD media)
c) The "Ultra" version, which is the only one to fully support BluRay and HD-DVD, definitely doesn't have a Linux version.
Don't care... mplayer will handle BR streams happily after some tweaking.. not that many of us will ever buy a BR drive.. because we don't think like the sheep.

5928.10.2008 14:48

Originally posted by Jemborg:
Upon returning Iron(y) Man to the rental store tonight, I asked if they had complaints from customers about any Blu-rays not working.

"Yes, funnily enough, there's been a lot of complaints about Iron Man not working- something about a "format" incompatibility."

"Any of those PS3 owners?", I asked {hopefully).

"Why no", I was told.

So there are playback problems in other standalone (probably) devices but not $ony's!

So poeple who rent movies out might start complaining too eventually. I told them about DRM etc. and they seemed quite happy I had a program that got around this. LOL

I've read that "Batman: The Dark Night" is meant to be the coming champion, spearheading the push forward for Blu-ray in the marketplace. I wonder if they will DRM that up the wazoo too.
The big problem with the Iron Man BluRay was not DRM. Iron Man has no BD+ (only AACS which is present in all commercial BD titles) and it is region free.

The playback problems during the first week were due to the inability of the Paramount BD-Live servers to cope with the number of people trying to connect. This included those using the PS3. This was fixed within 48 - 72 hours.

I've read about playback problems on some players but these were minor. The most common complaint I've read about is on muffled portions of the TrueHD soundtrack when the DRC is turned on in your player.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1043146&page=39

6028.10.2008 15:27

Originally posted by varnull:
Don't care... mplayer will handle BR streams happily after some tweaking.. not that many of us will ever buy a BR drive.. because we don't think like the sheep.
Baaa... :D

Now don't be like that Varnull. I'm not into fancy cars, 4 wheel drives and such, but I like my video/media. We've got a 50" 1080p Panasonic Plasma and it's just... lovely. Since I was putting together a Little mATX for the thing I thought I might as well chuck in a BR drive, and whilst good DVD upscaling looks great in 1080p, HD at that size looks better, you can tell the difference. And since BR discs are the same price to rent well... meh.

Games look awesome and my wife being a photography artist loves to display her work on the thing as well. It's a proper monitor.

If I knew how to get Linux to play BD and run the twin HD tuner card I might try it.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 28 Oct 2008 @ 15:31

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.


DSE VZ300-
Zilog Z80 CPU, 32KB RAM (16K+16K cartridge), video processor 6847, 2KB video RAM, 16 colours (text mode), 5.25" FDD

6128.10.2008 18:09

On topic: If you want "Mac" with BluRay get a Psystar clone.

Psystar slaps Apple around, releases Mac clones with Blu-ray / GeForce 9800GT

Quote:
While suits from Psystar and Apple are currently attempting to work things out via alternative dispute resolution, the former company is doing something the latter company won't: offer OS X-capable machines with built-in Blu-ray and NVIDIA's GeForce 9800GT. Showing no mercy whatsoever in a recent release, Psystar calls Steve Jobs out for his controversial "bag of hurt" comment and proceeds to inform the general public that it's "now shipping" OS X-compatible PCs (better known as Open Computers) with Blu-ray optical drives and the GeForce 9800GT GPU. Based on pricing figures gathered from the company's website, a 6x Blu-ray writer is a $310 upgrade over a dual-layer DVD burner, while the 512MB GeForce 9800GT will set you back $200 more than the 8600GT. Whatcha got to say now, Steve? Huh? Huh?

6228.10.2008 23:13

Originally posted by juankerr:
On topic: If you want "Mac" with BluRay get a Psystar clone.

Psystar slaps Apple around, releases Mac clones with Blu-ray / GeForce 9800GT

Quote:
While suits from Psystar and Apple are currently attempting to work things out via alternative dispute resolution, the former company is doing something the latter company won't: offer OS X-capable machines with built-in Blu-ray and NVIDIA's GeForce 9800GT. Showing no mercy whatsoever in a recent release, Psystar calls Steve Jobs out for his controversial "bag of hurt" comment and proceeds to inform the general public that it's "now shipping" OS X-compatible PCs (better known as Open Computers) with Blu-ray optical drives and the GeForce 9800GT GPU. Based on pricing figures gathered from the company's website, a 6x Blu-ray writer is a $310 upgrade over a dual-layer DVD burner, while the 512MB GeForce 9800GT will set you back $200 more than the 8600GT. Whatcha got to say now, Steve? Huh? Huh?


T-T-t-opic Breaker breaker *breaker* (sorry i just had too)
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 28 Oct 2008 @ 23:14

Powered By

6329.10.2008 1:02

Hmm Juan, that looks like a groovy machine- I had no idea it existed. However the posts afterwards complain that it would be useless for playing Blu-ray without an equivalent of the "Slysoft app".

Breaker breaker... Is there a scroll wheel on the Mac mousey? Can you incorporate a mouse of your own choosing? Real question- I don't know. :P


Its a lot easier being righteous than right.


DSE VZ300-
Zilog Z80 CPU, 32KB RAM (16K+16K cartridge), video processor 6847, 2KB video RAM, 16 colours (text mode), 5.25" FDD

6429.10.2008 7:24

Originally posted by Jemborg:
Hmm Juan, that looks like a groovy machine- I had no idea it existed. However the posts afterwards complain that it would be useless for playing Blu-ray without an equivalent of the "Slysoft app".
Have you ever heard of Boot Camp?

6529.10.2008 7:39

Originally posted by Toshibot:
Have you ever heard of Boot Camp?
Toshibot is right. I have no trouble running SlySoft on a Mac Book Pro using Boot Camp or Parallels Desktop.

6629.10.2008 9:22

Originally posted by error5:
Originally posted by Toshibot:
Have you ever heard of Boot Camp?
Toshibot is right. I have no trouble running SlySoft on a Mac Book Pro using Boot Camp or Parallels Desktop.
Why yes of course, how silly of me. I should have ignored the stupid posts there...forgot.

Boot Camp sounds like a great thing. It, for instance, gets around the gaming lack of Macs but still you can run the programs you like- I think having choice and versatility is the go. Do you have the Mighty Mouse btw? Do you get onboard Raid with such a thing ( or the Psystar)? Usable in both OS's?
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 29 Oct 2008 @ 9:23

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.


DSE VZ300-
Zilog Z80 CPU, 32KB RAM (16K+16K cartridge), video processor 6847, 2KB video RAM, 16 colours (text mode), 5.25" FDD

6721.9.2010 7:44
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