Originally posted by DVDBack 23:

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Another important number to note is 13, the percentage Blu-ray sales represent against all home video formats, including DVD.

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What does this quote refer to ?

total sales figure = 13 XD

So if TDK has sold 13% (of the total units), and at 1.8 million, then total sales is ~13.85 million units. So this seems about right.

As I remember , (in an article here at aD), Transformers sold ~18 million units in SD DVD in the first 2 weeks and HD DVD sold about 200,000 units. While BD is far surpassing HD DVD, SD DVD , by the numbers, is still alive and well.

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That's right iluvendo, DVD is still alive and well.

Originally posted by ematrix:

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That's right iluvendo, DVD is still alive and well.

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No.......DVD is dieing a slow death.13%is a very large number compared to were Blu-Ray was 2 years ago getting 1% & 2%.

Originally posted by NexGen76:

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Originally posted by ematrix:

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That's right iluvendo, DVD is still alive and well.

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No.......DVD is dieing a slow death.13%is a very large number compared to were Blu-Ray was 2 years ago getting 1% & 2%.

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Hi, but as I understand it, these large numbers are only for this disc, no other blue rays disc has achieved anything like this.Unless the entire new movie portfolio shows these sort of numbers, I would have to conclude that these sales numbers (for blue ray) are unsustainable and that ematrix is correct in his assertion.

Jo

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You're correct bryston, only a few BD new releases reach an average 7-10% of total weekly sales, because is more about the hype of getting those BD titles on day 1, so the few BD consumers preorders them and run to stores to be first to own them, therefore the highest sales peak of BD titles is right from the start, but after the rush is over is all downhigh, usually after a couple of weeks when those percentages decrease, so 13% may sound good, but its unsustainable, and as you mentioned, these numbers are only for this disc.

That's why they never release sales numbers of specific BD titles after a couple of months since released, otherwise you would realize that things aren't as promising as they make it look. Indeed BD was 2 years ago getting 1% & 2% of total disc sales, but that was for all titles sold, not for a movie in particular (granted there wasn't much to choose from back then) yet currently it holds an average of 4-6% for all BD new releases and catalog titles sold weekly, so there's no much gain in 2 years.

Dave J's and Kosty's calculations based on the Nielsen numbers:

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/sales-da...rts-etc-70.html

TDK - 18.33%
Wanted - 14.33%

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BD (top 20 BD unit volume) = 140.40 (14%)
BD + DVD (top 20 combined unit volume) = 183.79 (100%)
BD (top 20 combined unit volume) = 25.73 (14%)
DVD (top 20 combined unit volume) = 158.06 (86%)

So, a 1.00 unit on the BD top 20 volume chart is equal to a 0.1833 unit on the top 20 (DVD + BD) sellers chart.

That means TDK's BD top 20 unit volume translates from a 100.00 unit index to an 18.33 unit index (18.33%) on the combined top 20 sellers chart. "Wanted" on BD would follow with a unit index of 0.91 (14.33%). Those percentages would fall within the range of previous performances of other high profile movies during their first week of sales on BD such as "Iron Man" (17.14%), "The Incredible Hulk" (18.98%) and "Hancock" (14.52%) for example.

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Some numbers to consider:

The top high def discs of 2007:
Transformers - only 1.7% of sales
300 - only 3.5% of sales
The 2008 bestsellers are managing 14% - 18% - see quote above.

Total BluRay revenue in 2007 - $172.8 million Link
Total BluRay sales in just 1 week (12/8 to 12/14/2008) - 60.78 million
Year-to-date BluRay sales revenue thru 12/14/2008 - $540 million Link
DVD sales revenue total in 1999 (2 yrs after launch) - $700 million Link

No one is disputing the fact that DVD is still a good revenue stream for the studios. However, the DVD market has matured and is now showing signs of age and decline. The growth industry is now BluRay with more than half a billion dollars this year and the studios are happy to have another revenue stream to complement DVD.

What's important now, with total studio support, is that all major Day/Date releases are available in BluRay. In addition, a steady stream of catalog titles are being released. It's no longer a question of "Will BluRay survive?" It's "How much can BluRay make in the next few years?"

Originally posted by ematrix:

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That's why they never release sales numbers of specific BD titles after a couple of months since released,

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Umm yes they do - at least the indexes (from which you can calculate sales volume).

Just look at the weekly issue of HMM.

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/questex/hom753378YRT/index.php#/2

Blu-ray Beats Recession Blues - Sales Soar in Lead Up to Christmas at Even Quicker Rate than DVD

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London, UK (PRWEB) December 21, 2008 -- Despite the gloomiest of financial forecasts, sales of Blu-ray disc movies are defying the odds and bucking the credit crunch - with record figures reported in the run up to Christmas. And it's not just films flying off the shelves, Blu-ray disc players are also following suit, with a strong upsurge in European sales that is expected to continue into the New Year. In fact, overall sales are predicted to more than triple in 2009, reaching 2.5million units Europe wide* (and that figure does not even include the millions of Playstation 3 consoles, with their in-built Blu-ray players, that will be sold over the next few months).

The high definition format, which offers up to six times better picture quality than current standard definition, as well as a superb surround sound experience with its 7.1 channels, is establishing itself in Europe at a rapid rate - far faster than DVD did more than a decade ago. In its first three years, Blu-ray (including PS3 sales) has outsold DVD by about five times over the equivalent period*.

The Blu-ray disc format offers an unparalleled home entertainment experience, something all those involved with this technology have always known

Once people see the benefits of Blu-ray for themselves, they soon realise the difference it can make. Seeing is believing after all! We fully expect Blu-ray to keep on bucking the current economic trend and continue its rapid growth over the next few months and beyond, stimulated by falling prices and even more bundling deals with large screen TVs.

British consumers bought 462,500 Blu-ray discs in November, an increase of 165 per cent from October**, Figures released in December from the British Video Association (BVA), show that block-buster Hollywood titles such The Dark Knight sold a staggering 513,000 units in one day with Blu-ray disc representing 21 per cent of all discs sold. In France, Blu-ray's share of the optical disc market is expected to double next year to 6 per cent*. Across Europe as a whole, over 6.5 million units of software have been sold to date, with year on year growth up 320 per cent**.

2008 has been a breakthrough year for Blu-ray, with the format gaining support from the entire Consumer Electronics industry and all Hollywood Movie Studios. Features such as BD-Live mean exciting interactive content is now available on the latest titles, while more and more classic films are being released each week as Blu-ray's back catalogue continues to grow. New advanced BD players by all major manufacturers represent even greater value for money, while the format itself has still not reached its full potential.

* Source: Futuresource.
**Source: GFK

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Great post and information Toshi.

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Originally posted by ematrix:

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You're correct bryston, only a few BD new releases reach an average 7-10% of total weekly sales, because is more about the hype of getting those BD titles on day 1, so the few BD consumers preorders them and run to stores to be first to own them, therefore the highest sales peak of BD titles is right from the start, but after the rush is over is all downhigh, usually after a couple of weeks when those percentages decrease, so 13% may sound good, but its unsustainable, and as you mentioned, these numbers are only for this disc.

That's why they never release sales numbers of specific BD titles after a couple of months since released, otherwise you would realize that things aren't as promising as they make it look. Indeed BD was 2 years ago getting 1% & 2% of total disc sales, but that was for all titles sold, not for a movie in particular (granted there wasn't much to choose from back then) yet currently it holds an average of 4-6% for all BD new releases and catalog titles sold weekly, so there's no much gain in 2 years.

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All i was saying is that if you look at market share numbers Blu-Ray is increasing DVD falling slow with each title released.Just the way Toshibot explain it.






Thxs............Toshibot you seen my point.

@NexGen76 nobody is denying the fact that blu-ray is the next version of movie watching media.
but my personal opinion, a 10% increase on one movie title in 2 years is not that impressive. (the 13% was only for that title)
Especially when theres already whispers of the next big thing.....

By the whispering of the next version of media are you referring to non-physcial forms of media???

Originally posted by lawndog:

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@NexGen76 nobody is denying the fact that blu-ray is the next version of movie watching media.
but my personal opinion, a 10% increase on one movie title in 2 years is not that impressive. (the 13% was only for that title)
Especially when theres already whispers of the next big thing.....

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I never said anybody was i was addressing the issue that most people didn't understand that 13% jump on one title in 2 years is a very big leap for Blu-Ray.There always going to be the next thing but don't forget who control the content..........Movie studios.Just read Toshibot post as it was my POV that i was trying to explain TDK isn't the only BD that made some leads on the market share Wanted,Transformers,Ironman,& 300...etc.

With all due respect but lets no mix apples with pears, because we are talking about (based in the context of the article) how many BD and DVD discs of TDK were sold after one week from release, not their market share or revenue (meaning how much consumers spent) they may seem the same, but they aren't.

As I mentioned before, BD top films hold an average 7-10% of total weekly discs sales, and holds an average of 4-6% for BD discs of both top films and catalog titles sold weekly (not much gain after 2 years) while their market share is higher than, it's a reflection of how much consumers are spending on them, and that's not what we or the article is talking about, so let's keep things on its original context.

If they shared info about how many BD discs of a specific new top film have been sold after a couple of months, and how it compares against that same title on DVD, the numbers aren't that promising as they were on their first weeks from release.

Originally posted by ematrix:

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With all due respect but lets no mix apples with pears, because we are talking about (based in the context of the article) how many BD and DVD discs of TDK were sold after one week from release, not their market share or revenue (meaning how much consumers spent)

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You're forgetting that the revenue number is what the studios are looking at. If a format is profitable for the studios then the format stays alive. BluRay is showing a >300 percent increase in revenue compared to last year. The studios must be very happy with this development. If they're happy then they continue to release on that format and the format stays alive.

Sorry but that's irrelevant in this case, and we shouldn't care about market share and revenue numbers, which only shows how much consumers spent, yet it's a speculative figure as you don't know acuratelly how many discs were sold, and how much did every single consumer paid for each disc sold.

Again we and the article are talking about how many BD and DVD discs of TDK were sold on its first week, that's what should matter to us as consumers and should keep it on that context; nobody is denying how well TDK did on BD on its first week, yet it's an unsustainable achievement since that 13% will decline in the next couple of weeks, while TDK on DVD did very well also, and will continue to do at a more stable pace. DVD is still alive and well.

Once again, if we saw how many BD discs of a specific new top film have been sold after a couple of months, and how it compares against that same title on DVD, the numbers aren't that promising as they were on their first weeks from release.

When the HDTV's market fully penetrates people will start to see the advantage and differences that BD has to offer...like these for starters

(Sorry for the size of the pics but in order to fully represent my point they need to be shown this way)

DVD



BD



DVD



BD



DVD



BD



DVD



BD



Now undoubtedly this is still some time off for HDTV's & BD but in all honesty it is inevitable.

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Originally posted by ematrix:

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nobody is denying how well TDK did on BD on its first week, yet it's an unsustainable achievement since that 13% will decline in the next couple of weeks, while TDK on DVD did very well also, and will continue to do at a more stable pace.

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This post by Kosty speaks for itself. He's the recognized expert on BD/DVD sales trends over at HDD:

Quote:

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Discount pricing of the DVD for the holidays may increase the DVD sales side of the equation, but historically DVD sales attrit very fast with big drop offs at 3-4 weeks then off a cliff at 8 weeks. Blu-ray sales have much longer legs especially of the hit titles. So short term DVD may gain but Blu-ray will probably steadily gain over time.

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http://forums.highdefdigest.com/1342332-post20.html

Originally posted by HDNow:

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Originally posted by ematrix:

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nobody is denying how well TDK did on BD on its first week, yet it's an unsustainable achievement since that 13% will decline in the next couple of weeks, while TDK on DVD did very well also, and will continue to do at a more stable pace.

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This post by Kosty speaks for itself. He's the recognized expert on BD/DVD sales trends over at HDD:

Quote:

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Discount pricing of the DVD for the holidays may increase the DVD sales side of the equation, but historically DVD sales attrit very fast with big drop offs at 3-4 weeks then off a cliff at 8 weeks. Blu-ray sales have much longer legs especially of the hit titles. So short term DVD may gain but Blu-ray will probably steadily gain over time.

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http://forums.highdefdigest.com/1342332-post20.html

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Thanks for pointing that out HDNow. I was going to quote this post also from Kosty as a counter-argument to ematrix:

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/1341150-post137.html

Quote:

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The Dark Knight 's BD Market Share is likely to also rise over time as most Blu-ray versions have a longer active sales tail than DVD counterparts.

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This guy has been following sales trends forever and is maintaining the sticky thread on Nielsen/Videoscan numbers. The important thing to note is the concept of the active sales tail which he points out is longer historically for the BluRay version compared to DVD.

Oner, I'm sorry to differ but my DVD movies look much better on my 42" screen than those piss-poor pics from AVS forum, really no software can accurately represent what you'll actually view throw a top of the line DVD upscaler and screen; even more, anyone using only PowerDVD can produce a capture from any newly released DVD movie, and with Windows Paint (no filters nor enhancements) scale them to 1920x1080, and they'll look much better than those alleged "real" comparison pics from that forum; anyway that's not what's on discussion.

Here's a breaking news: The so-called "worldwide" numbers reported in this article, which were provided by Warner for TDK's first week sales of BD and DVD discs, are actually taken from sales in six territories - USA, Canada, UK, Japan, Benelux, Australia... That's not worldwide! What about the rest of Europe, Asia and America? Of course any of you and your so-called "recognized expert" never bothered to notice that.

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/...414&newsLang=en

This is what has always been... plain and simple PR marketing BS, by manipulating figures to make consumers believe that DVD is dying, and everybody should be buying BD, because they claim "it has gained a lot of terrain". I'm sorry, but DVD is still alive and well, while BD is still a small niche in the real worldwide market.

Sure sounds impressive when they say that TDK went from selling 600,000 BD discs against more than 2 million DVD discs, and with that BD sales represented 20% of total disc sales records on day 1 (yet those were from USA, Canada and UK only) to selling in its first week 1.8 million BD discs against more than 10 million DVD discs "worldwide", and that allegedly meant that BD sales represented 13% of total disc sales records, but they were only accounting sales from six territories (and most of those discs were sold within USA) NOT ALL THE WORLD.

If they actually account every single TDK's BD and DVD disc sold in every single country around the world, then no doubt DVD numbers and its percentage from total disc sales would be much higher than reported, and that won't be very flatering for Blu-ray, otherwise why they didn't include them in the first place? Most likely because in a lot of countries around the world, TDK's DVD discs sales were high, while BD discs sales were practically minimal.

Originally posted by ematrix:

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Oner, I'm sorry to differ but my DVD movies look much better on my 42" screen than those piss-poor pics from AVS forum, really no software can accurately represent what you'll actually view throw a top of the line DVD upscaler and screen; even more, anyone using only PowerDVD can produce a capture from any newly released DVD movie, and with Windows Paint (no filters nor enhancements) scale them to 1920x1080, and they'll look much better than those alleged "real" comparison pics from that forum; anyway that's not what's on discussion.

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You cant be serious.........

Yes, I'm... yet I'm not claiming that a DVD pic upscaled at 1080 will look exactly like a BD pic, I'm absolutely not claiming that, neither I'm denying the quality from BD movies, but DVD movies sure look better on my screen than those comparison pics from that forum. I respect if you or others don't agree with me, yet I say lets stay focused and get back on the subject, and leave that whole issue rest, before we start an offtopic argument that will lead to nothing, which of course is irrelevant to what this article and discussion is about.

Originally posted by juankerr:

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Originally posted by HDNow:

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Originally posted by ematrix:

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nobody is denying how well TDK did on BD on its first week, yet it's an unsustainable achievement since that 13% will decline in the next couple of weeks, while TDK on DVD did very well also, and will continue to do at a more stable pace.

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This post by Kosty speaks for itself. He's the recognized expert on BD/DVD sales trends over at HDD:

Quote:

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Discount pricing of the DVD for the holidays may increase the DVD sales side of the equation, but historically DVD sales attrit very fast with big drop offs at 3-4 weeks then off a cliff at 8 weeks. Blu-ray sales have much longer legs especially of the hit titles. So short term DVD may gain but Blu-ray will probably steadily gain over time.

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http://forums.highdefdigest.com/1342332-post20.html

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Thanks for pointing that out HDNow. I was going to quote this post also from Kosty as a counter-argument to ematrix:

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/1341150-post137.html

Quote:

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The Dark Knight 's BD Market Share is likely to also rise over time as most Blu-ray versions have a longer active sales tail than DVD counterparts.

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This guy has been following sales trends forever and is maintaining the sticky thread on Nielsen/Videoscan numbers. The important thing to note is the concept of the active sales tail which he points out is longer historically for the BluRay version compared to DVD.

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This is exactly why they have those $5 DVD bargain bins at Walmart.

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What about the rest of Europe, Asia and America? Of course any of you and your so-called "recognized expert" never bothered to notice that.

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The reason why they didn't have the numbers for those other territories you mentioned is simple: They don't know how many bootleg copies are sold. ;)

Originally posted by ematrix:

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This is what has always been... plain and simple PR marketing BS, by manipulating figures to make consumers believe that DVD is dying,

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Don't exaggerate. That's not what I read in the article at all.

What I see in the article is a dramatic rise in sales of BluRay because of one title. Records were set by one blockbuster movie.

To claim that BluRay is replacing DVD just because of one title is completely absurd. Relax and take a deep breath. No one is claiming that DVD is dead.

Quote:

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Don't exaggerate. That's not what I read in the article at all.

What I see in the article is a dramatic rise in sales of BluRay because of one title. Records were set by one blockbuster movie.

To claim that BluRay is replacing DVD just because of one title is completely absurd. Relax and take a deep breath. No one is claiming that DVD is dead.

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Tell that to those who claim that "DVD is dying a slow death". Indeed the article claims a good first week sales of BD discs "worldwide", when in fact those figures came from six territories, not from all countries around the world.

Quote:

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The reason why they didn't have the numbers for those other territories you mentioned is simple: They don't know how many bootleg copies are sold. ;)

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No, the reason why they didn't show the numbers for all the rest of the globe, is because those six territories showed more favorable sales figures towards the Blu-ray release.

Originally posted by NexGen76:

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Originally posted by ematrix:

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Oner, I'm sorry to differ but my DVD movies look much better on my 42" screen than those piss-poor pics from AVS forum, really no software can accurately represent what you'll actually view throw a top of the line DVD upscaler and screen; even more, anyone using only PowerDVD can produce a capture from any newly released DVD movie, and with Windows Paint (no filters nor enhancements) scale them to 1920x1080, and they'll look much better than those alleged "real" comparison pics from that forum; anyway that's not what's on discussion.

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You cant be serious.........

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Ematrix ~ No one said anything about the pics being UPSCALED. The comparison is for standard DVD to BD Full HD.

Originally posted by error5:

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Originally posted by ematrix:

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This is what has always been... plain and simple PR marketing BS, by manipulating figures to make consumers believe that DVD is dying,

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Don't exaggerate. That's not what I read in the article at all.

What I see in the article is a dramatic rise in sales of BluRay because of one title. Records were set by one blockbuster movie.

To claim that BluRay is replacing DVD just because of one title is completely absurd. Relax and take a deep breath. No one is claiming that DVD is dead.

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Ematrix ~ Again no one said anything about DVD being dead. Just a correlation of how DVD started in relevance to now in which how BD is starting. I don't think ANYONE here believes DVD is going anywhere, just that how in due time there will be a reversal in standings. So you may have taken it a bit too strongly or literal in what was actually meant.

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If i may ask a simple question id like to know why so many people pulled for blu-ray to win the war over the cheaper near equivalent hd-dvd format. Im not overly educated on the format but from my understand the picture and sound on both were IDENTICAL. Hd-dvd was cheaper and could you imagine how much the movies and players of hd-dvd would cost now? Blu-ray has the storage adavantage but too me to an extraneous point. hd-dvd did 25gigs per layer and blu-ray twice that. I also know more companies supported blu-ray which was clearly due to it costing more and more profit potential. If people chose hd-dvd then companies(manufactuers and movie studios) wouldve been forced to go to the cheaper and equally as good in most catergories hd-dvd.With the way technology is hot then not it seems hd-dvd was the more logical step. Seeing as how there is very little leap in benefits other than picture unblike the leap from vhs to dvd which was an enormous leap in every way.I also thought that hd-dvd had less restrictions than blu-ray. Well like i said im not o verly sure of myself in this field i just didnt get how blu-ray won so easily and so quickly. i guess patience is a virtue not for the consumer..

whispers refers to several different media forms, the only one I'm really listenning to, because it seems to hold the most promise in my opinion was the internet. The ability to download a movie in HD format viewable or capable to the media you deam fit, now whether that be Bluray or anouther media storing device from what I understand is going to left to the person DLing it. But from the whispers I've heard the WWW is an aveanue that is being looked at, due to the lack of overhead.
By no means am I saying this is going to happen or anything like that, just whispers that I've "heard"
@nexgen, sorry if you feel I was going after you. Was only trying to say that for the money spent on promotting Blu-Ray you would think that it would be alot higher percentage. Cause I'll tell ya straight, the picture is 100% better and cleaner. Just wish I could afford it, the TV to go with it, and the better surruond sound too.

Originally posted by Globe08:

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If i may ask a simple question id like to know why so many people pulled for blu-ray to win the war over the cheaper near equivalent hd-dvd format. Im not overly educated on the format but from my understand the picture and sound on both were IDENTICAL. Hd-dvd was cheaper and could you imagine how much the movies and players of hd-dvd would cost now? Blu-ray has the storage adavantage but too me to an extraneous point. hd-dvd did 25gigs per layer and blu-ray twice that. I also know more companies supported blu-ray which was clearly due to it costing more and more profit potential. If people chose hd-dvd then companies(manufactuers and movie studios) wouldve been forced to go to the cheaper and equally as good in most catergories hd-dvd.With the way technology is hot then not it seems hd-dvd was the more logical step. Seeing as how there is very little leap in benefits other than picture unblike the leap from vhs to dvd which was an enormous leap in every way.I also thought that hd-dvd had less restrictions than blu-ray. Well like i said im not o verly sure of myself in this field i just didnt get how blu-ray won so easily and so quickly. i guess patience is a virtue not for the consumer..

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Globe08, the HD format wars to my understanding, were not so much as feasibility or practicality (for the consumer) but more to profit margin. Although there were technological differences (pros and cons on both sides) and cost advantages, in the end , the bottom line, profit potential won out.

From what I read, blue ray may not have much longevity, as newer formats (more economical and more profitable) are on the near horizon, and may supplant blue ray in the not to distant future. This is the major reason I have not bought into blue ray (costs too). So unless, blue ray discs and its associated hardware dramatically drop in pricing structure dramatically, I am hesistant to invest in this format, and will stay with upconverted dvds instead. The real possibility of a new high definition format change in the not too distant future poses such a high risk to owning a orphan format (blue ray), that it makes me pause, and make the choice to sit on the sidelines for a while longer.

Just my thoughts ,

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Originally posted by iluvendo:

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I am hesistant to invest in this format, and will stay with upconverted dvds instead. The real possibility of a new high definition format change in the not too distant future poses such a high risk to owning a orphan format (blue ray), that it makes me pause, and make the choice to sit on the sidelines for a while longer.

Just my thoughts ,

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That's a fair assessment and one everyone should look at independently to fit their needs. Using my own experience as an example if the PS3 didn't come with BD I would have probably done exactly as you are and just waited. But since I am a gamer and got the additional benefit of BD I will use it to my glee. Though I honestly don't think the next BIG format (most likely DDL) will be here as soon as some believe for a few reasons

1) The media makers (film, movies, CD, DVD, BD etc.) want to and will always draw things out to maximize profits

2) Digital Downloads are no where near the speeds or capabilities of what would be acceptable for continual use and for that to happen will really take some time

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Originally posted by iluvendo:

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The real possibility of a new high definition format change in the not too distant future poses such a high risk to owning a orphan format (blue ray), that it makes me pause, and make the choice to sit on the sidelines for a while longer.

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I have an HD DVD player and over a hundred HDDVD titles. However, I don't feel like it's an "orphan format." The player still works and the discs still play perfectly. I still enjoy the movies on the format especially those titles that haven't been released on Blu.

Same thing applies if they stop making BluRay. The players still work and the movies are still there for me to enjoy.

If a new HD format comes out in the future then you can be sure that I'll be first in line at Best Buy to try it. I expect any new format to be quite expensive at the start because the CE makers have to recover any R&D and marketing expenses. I don't think any new HD format will cater to the mass market right away. There will be a period where only early adopters and serious enthusiasts will be able to afford it. By the time the new format becomes available we could see 2.0 BluRay players for less than $50 - $100 and new release movies for $10 to $15 each.

I want to enjoy what's available now and the best HD delivery method available to consumers right now is BluRay.

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Originally posted by Oner:

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Ematrix ~ No one said anything about the pics being UPSCALED. The comparison is for standard DVD to BD Full HD.

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Oner, to show DVD pics at 1920x1080 is like saying "this is how DVDs look upscaled on your screen", I'm sorry but that's not how they look in reality; sure upscaled DVDs will not look like BDs does, but certanly look better than depicted on those pics from that forum.

Originally posted by Oner:

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Ematrix ~ Again no one said anything about DVD being dead. Just a correlation of how DVD started in relevance to now in which how BD is starting. I don't think ANYONE here believes DVD is going anywhere, just that how in due time there will be a reversal in standings. So you may have taken it a bit too strongly or literal in what was actually meant.

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Yes Oner, someone did say "DVD is dying a slow death"... DVD is still alive and ain't going away anytime soon. To compare how DVD started a decade ago, when owning a videoclub was a high profit business because most people preferred renting than buying movies, when the thought of getting movies throw internet was a pipe dream, etc. in relevance to now in which how BD is starting, is like comparing apples to pears, as it was a different scenario back then as it's today.

Originally posted by iluvendo:

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From what I read, blue ray may not have much longevity, as newer formats (more economical and more profitable) are on the near horizon, and may supplant blue ray in the not to distant future. This is the major reason I have not bought into blue ray (costs too). So unless, blue ray discs and its associated hardware dramatically drop in pricing structure dramatically, I am hesistant to invest in this format, and will stay with upconverted dvds instead. The real possibility of a new high definition format change in the not too distant future poses such a high risk to owning a orphan format (blue ray), that it makes me pause, and make the choice to sit on the sidelines for a while longer.

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I totally agree with you.

Originally posted by ematrix:

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Oner, to show DVD pics at 1920x1080 is like saying "this is how DVDs look upscaled on your screen", I'm sorry but that's not how they look in reality; sure upscaled DVDs will not look like BDs does, but certanly look better than depicted on those pics from that forum.

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Do you know if they where taken on a PC with a display of 1920x1080 but not upscaled? As I don't. But either way I would be more inclined to go by the AVS forums than a single post most anywhere.

Originally posted by Ematrix:

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Yes Oner, someone did say "DVD is dying a slow death"... DVD is still alive and ain't going away anytime soon. To compare how DVD started a decade ago, when owning a videoclub was a high profit business because most people preferred renting than buying movies, when the thought of getting movies throw internet was a pipe dream, etc. in relevance to now in which how BD is starting, is like comparing apples to pears, as it was a different scenario back then as it's today.

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I still think you are not understanding in reference to what was meant as to what was said. Though I could be wrong as the poster hasn't addressed what was commented.

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Originally posted by Oner:

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I still think you are not understanding in reference to what was meant as to what was said. Though I could be wrong as the poster hasn't addressed what was commented.

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OK here goes. Be warned though: If you don't want to hear any negative comments about DVD then I suggest you turn away and ignore this post.

Everyone agrees that DVD is still the biggest source of revenue for the movie studios.

However, in 2006 these same movie studios expressed their concern regarding the lack of growth of the format. The year 2006 showed no growth in DVD sales compared to the previous year.

In 2007 something happened that really got the studios panicking. DVD sales dropped 4.5 percent from 2006. Something that has never happened since DVD launched in 1997.

This year it gets even worse. Warner Brothers reports a 4 percent drop from 2007 while Nielsen Videoscan reports "a 9 percent drop in overall DVD sales during the third quarter alone and a 22 percent decline in sales of higher-priced new titles although its data does not include results at Wal-Mart."

It doesn't help that Walmart - recognized as the biggest B&M retailer of DVD's - has started reducing floor space for CD's and DVD's while increasing that of BD.

Again, I say that DVD is still alive and well but it's showing signs of age and decline - a fact that the movie studios are well aware of. Note that the decline started even before BluRay and HDDVD were able to get a foothold in the market. The blame lies elsewhere.

So there you go. Like I said, don't blame the messenger.

Sources:
http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news...-slippage_N.htm
http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/01/holl...op-in-2007.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/21/business/21dvd.html
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/12/10/ana...ds-encouraging/
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/11/03/wal...ng-more-to-blu/

Originally posted by Toshibot:

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This year it gets even worse. Warner Brothers reports a 4 percent drop from 2007 while Nielsen Videoscan reports "a 9 percent drop in overall DVD sales during the third quarter alone and a 22 percent decline in sales of higher-priced new titles although its data does not include results at Wal-Mart."

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I guess these figures were before the TDK release, right? I wonder if the TDK DVD numbers were enough to avert another year of overall decline.

Originally posted by error5:

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I guess these figures were before the TDK release, right? I wonder if the TDK DVD numbers were enough to avert another year of overall decline.

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It's possible but with one week left in 2008 TDK still trails 3 other titles in domestic (USA) sales:

http://www.the-numbers.com/dvd/charts/annual/2008.php

We should know when Nielsen releases its year-end numbers.

Oner, I meant that someone literally said that DVD was dying, i don't remember how said it, but someone did, but really isn't worth keep discussing about that... also DVD movies properly upscaled on my 42" screen, even so I'm not claiming they look exactly like BD movies do, yet look better than those DVD pics from AVS forum.

Anyway, unless you wish to keep talking about these issues, I think they're irrelevant to what's been discussed here, and as I said before we could give it a rest, if that's fine by you, and continue in the subject at hand.

Indeed DVD is still the biggest source of revenue for the movie studios, and will continue to be so in the following years; nobody is denying it's minor annual decline sales (which ain't that bad considering what I explain next) but what some reffer as market maturity is actually the consequence (and not the problem) of something much worse, and that's not because DVD itself is aging and declining, indeed the blame lies elsewhere... the movie studios are the ones showing signs of age and decline.

People don't go to movie theaters, rent or buy DVDs with the same enthusiasm that they did years ago, because they are tired of lame mediocre sequels and remakes, worn out unoriginal scripts. Yet when one good movie stands out from the crappy bunch, everybody wants to see it so much, that will line up outside the movie theater on opening day, even buy or rent it on video months later.

That has been always the solution to reverse this decline in sales, yet the movie studios are filled with greedy old dinosaurs, that refuse to take risks in making good films worth watching, rather invest in BD who's sole reason to exist, is to make them profit from reselling you movies you already own, and selling you crappy films that usually would pass, yet you cave in under the premise that looks and sounds better than DVD.

Of course you may choose just to purchase on BD those films you really like, even if you already own them on DVD, but most consumers aren't willing to double-dip films, as we seen with re-releases on DVD in the past years, and if that's the case BD will be no where near the sales volume of years past on DVD.

The Dark Knight is the clear example of what an audience is willing to watch in theaters, rent or buy in video; if movie studios worried more about making more films of the stature of TDK, then we won't see any declining sales, as everybody would be investing in watching them in theaters (renting them if missed them) even consider them a must own on video.

Yet when all the movies studios have done in the past years, is release mostly crappy movies, people feel so defrauded after spending in their movie tickets, and wasting 2 hours of their lives, that they'll not buy or rent them on video, recommend their friends to avoid them, and certanly think twice before risking to watch a film that simply doesn't feel right. So don't blame DVD for the declining sales, the fault of that is entirely of the movie studios.

Originally posted by ematrix:

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So don't blame DVD for the declining sales, the fault of that is entirely of the movie studios.

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Good. So we do agree that DVD sales are in decline.

Those DVD screencaps don't look entirely honest to me. Looks more like doctored/selective propaganda to me.

Originally posted by avoidz:

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Those DVD screencaps don't look entirely honest to me. Looks more like doctored/selective propaganda to me.

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lol. I guess the guys at the AVS forums don't know what they are doing over there :rollseyes:

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Originally posted by avoidz:

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Those DVD screencaps don't look entirely honest to me. Looks more like doctored/selective propaganda to me.

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Thanks, good to know I'm not the only one here that thinks the same.

Originally posted by Toshibot:

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Good. So we do agree that DVD sales are in decline.

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Yes, but the DVD market is stronger even in decline than other media businesses, like in the case of BD, which will miss sales projections for the year by 20-25%; yet currently total DVD sales are down about 4% for the year, but I insist that's a minor decline that shouldn't be seen negatively, and you can't blame DVD for that, specially in times of global recession and with only a few good titles worth owning, when most films released this year were utterly crap, indeed the fault falls on the movie studios, and despite all that, DVD is in fact so strong, that has been saving the movies studios sorry buttoms for the past years.

I think it's time for some clarification as to how much work goes into these comparisons.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthrea...80&page=1&pp=30

I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally take them seriously. These aren't your run of the mill uninformed internet posters running around everywhere, who speak first with no research to back up assumptions ;)

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Sorry Oner, but I still believe on what I have expressed before, and yes, I have seen better looking DVD caps at 1920x1080 than those at AVS, even for the same shots they make their comparisons.

Then you see what you want to see. I have given enough proof for those who want to come to their own conclusions. Plus my own real world experience shows me that. My Bravia 60A3000 and BD to DVD (& even upscaled) is no comparison.

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Oner: I have to agree with you on this one. Ever since I upgraded to a front projection setup and a 110-inch screen the difference between upconversion and BD has been magnified.

The only way an SD signal can be considered "tolerable" on my setup is when I pass it through one of these:

http://www.anchorbaytech.com/products/systems/vp50pro.php

Even then I still can see the difference.

I'll stick with BluRay and HDDVD.

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Right Oner, all you have done is provide comparison DVD pics of questionable quality, which by the way you shouldn't have done in the first place, as nobody was addresing visual differences from DVD to BD, and had nothing to do with the article and discussion carried on here. It's a know fact that higher the screen size, like in yours case with 60" to 110" screens, the more noticeable the differences from upscaled DVD vs. BD, yet when most users own 32" to 40" screens, the differences are more discrete, yet nobody claimed that a upscaled DVD looked exactly like a BD; therefore as I said before, this discussion not only is offtopic and far away of the original context of the article, if you persue this it will lead to nothing, as you have your preferences and clearly me and others have ours; so are we going back to talking about TDK disc sales, or you're going to keep talking about something that has nothing to do with what is been discussed to begin with?

Originally posted by ematrix:

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Right Oner, all you have done is provide comparison DVD pics of questionable quality, which by the way you shouldn't have done in the first place, as nobody was addresing visual differences from DVD to BD, and had nothing to do with the article and discussion carried on here.

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It's relevant to the broader theme of why some people are preferring BD to DVD and why sales are increasing.

Originally posted by ematrix:

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Right Oner, all you have done is provide comparison DVD pics of questionable quality, which by the way you shouldn't have done in the first place, as nobody was addresing visual differences from DVD to BD, and had nothing to do with the article and discussion carried on here. It's a know fact that higher the screen size, like in yours case with 60" to 110" screens, the more noticeable the differences from upscaled DVD vs. BD, yet when most users own 32" to 40" screens, the differences are more discrete, yet nobody claimed that a upscaled DVD looked exactly like a BD; therefore as I said before, this discussion not only is offtopic and far away of the original context of the article, if you persue this it will lead to nothing, as you have your preferences and clearly me and others have ours; so are we going back to talking about TDK disc sales, or you're going to keep talking about something that has nothing to do with what is been discussed to begin with?

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Oh really? If you want to pick and choose what topics to be discussed here then the REAL truth is YOU where the main one questioning BD sales and not the topic of TDK. So mind yours before minding others...don't try and stand on a soap box and question others when it is their turn to get on the same soap box. It's quite hypocritical.

You didn't see me bitching out and trying to cut peoples points out of a discussion, but since you brought it up. Don't bother posting in this thread anymore since you are obviously the main person who continued to steer this topic off of TDK into BD vs DVD (starting at post #7 and from there on) only to cry about it when MANY others showed valid links and proof as to why you where mistaken.

The whole discussion was well within allowable tolerances, but since you want to single me out as being off topic I will be the one to fix & end this problem.

ANYTHING ELSE POSTED IN THIS THREAD THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TDK SALES WILL END UP GETTING THIS THREAD CLOSED

You can all thank Ematrix for this people.

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One step further. Thread closed to prevent future unnecessary flame wars.

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