AfterDawn: Tech news

Microsoft apologizes for banning gay XBL user

Written by Andre Yoskowitz (Google+) @ 03 Mar 2009 0:33 User comments (86)

Microsoft apologizes for banning gay XBL user Microsoft has apologized for the banning of an Xbox Live user who self-identified herself as lesbian, even going as far as to call their policies "inelegant."
After the woman revealed her homosexuality in her Xbox Live profile, she was continuously harassed, and Microsoft banned her account, saying many gamers found "her lesbianism offensive."

Microsoft did note that their XBL policy bars "the expression of relationship preference in Gamertag profiles and tags, whether that's heterosexual or other." Stephen Toulouse, Xbox Live program manager for policy and enforcement, did note that Microsoft is "looking into that policy," and that it could be up for change.

The original post by the banned woman is here: "Identifying Yourself As A Lesbian Gets You Banned On XBOX Live"

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86 user comments

13.3.2009 0:45

They have the dumbest policies anyways i had one sentence about nuthin on my profile and got banned for a week for having i pwn for food on my motto and come to find out u dont need to have anything offensive u just need numerous ppl to report u for something or for just alot of bad feedback even if u didnt do anything wrong so its kinda weird since they dont even check most the bad feedback surprised they even acknowledged this user.

23.3.2009 0:51
Bigtx99
Inactive

I think it is a good policy you do not need to let everyone know your sexual preference on a console platform, there is no need to let every one know whether you like males or females. Its about playing games and having a good time. If you need to express what sex you are into there are plenty of social networking sites for that.

She should be unbanned but warned not to put her sexual preference up, and that goes for everyone.

In the end its protecting the privacy of people who use xbox live, even if people are too dumb protect their own privacy.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Mar 2009 @ 1:02

33.3.2009 0:58

Exactly right Bigtx99.

43.3.2009 0:58

Keep the policy.
Xbox needs to draw the line somewhere and with the amount of young gamers I think it's good you can't post sexual preference keep the console for gaming, there are enough dating sites/places already.

53.3.2009 1:09

Originally posted by chubbyInc:
Keep the policy.
Xbox needs to draw the line somewhere and with the amount of young gamers I think it's good you can't post sexual preference keep the console for gaming, there are enough dating sites/places already.
Keep the policy. If she feels the need to let everyone know that she is a lesbians then let her go to a lesbian forum, chatroom, site and post their. Xboxlive is for playing games and she abused the service. i can see them letting her rename her account and continue using xboxlive but Microsoft owes her no apology if the rules warned against this kind of thing in the first place.

63.3.2009 2:03

Originally posted by Bigtx99:
I think it is a good policy you do not need to let everyone know your sexual preference on a console platform, there is no need to let every one know whether you like males or females. Its about playing games and having a good time. If you need to express what sex you are into there are plenty of social networking sites for that.

I agree.

I have nothing against homosexuals, but if you're the kind of person who needs to constantly announce your preference to the world like it's a big deal, or anyone cares, I hope you do get banned. You're just being an attention-seeking douche.

Look at me, everyone, I'm different! Appreciate my snowflake-like individuality!

73.3.2009 3:25

Would "Halo3TeabagKing" be an acceptable gamertag? ;-)

The problem with some of these policies is that they often have double-standards. I believe XBL and PSN's policies also say users of the service should be at least 18yo, so there should be no need to 'protect children' (which I believe IS a good thing in other circumstances).

This 'policy' would supposedly also not allow anyone to even make ANY reference to their "girlfriend/boyfriend" or even "wife/husband" -- I seriously doubt THAT hasn't been commonplace and goes by w/o a mention or warning from administrators of the service. The policy should be more about punishing users for general rudeness or maliciously attacking other users. If someone online is gay, doesn't have a rude nickname, but casually mentions having a girlfriend/boyfriend (apparently of the same sex), it should be no big deal to anyone (with a decent head on their shoulders). If someone's THROWING intimate details of their personal life 'unwelcomedly' at people, however, that is rude behavior and deserves at least a warning to quit that behavior.

I still think users getting away w/ malicious attacks on others is a FAR bigger problem. If you can't be respectful of others in a (virtual) society, perhaps you should not be in it.

83.3.2009 3:38

I have nothing against homosexuals (one of my best friends is lesbian), but they indeed should have the same common sense the rest of us enjoy.

An extra problem here is that because she was "banned for being lesbian", this will get extra-publicity and they will need to investigate whether a heterosexual player would've been banned for "similar actions", as some will start suspecting one of the XBL emplyees dislikes homosexuals and overreacted etc.

It's a little like religion, I've got the feeling that you are more likely to get the banhammer for preaching islam there than for expressing your catholic values.

93.3.2009 7:24

You guys are gay. That policy is gay.

edit by moderator- this user is obviously a schoolkid (and/or someone with gender hangups) who shouldn't be on the internet unsupervised

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Mar 2009 @ 9:59

103.3.2009 8:10

So what did they exactly say? I read like a week ago that Microsoft actually stood by their banning. Is her account now back up or something?

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Mar 2009 @ 8:28

113.3.2009 8:56

They should warn people before banning them... it will seem less impersonal and might open peoples eyes to policies they didn't know existed, not everybody (anybody??) reads the full agreements on these things, wrongly or rightly, it's just the way it is.

Why they feel the need to express sexual orientation in their profile I'll never know, my gay mates don't, my straight mates don't, but then again, I bet they don't realise they weren't allowed until I send them a link to this article.

123.3.2009 9:06

Who cares if it was a "lesbian" view? XBL is for gaming. We don't need yet ANOTHER forum for people to spread their religious, racial, ethnic, sexist, sexual orientation or nationalist views. I say ban them all.

133.3.2009 9:45
vballstud
Inactive

I put "Brunettes make my mushroom turn purple" in my bio...

143.3.2009 11:56

Lesbians...hmm,keep them away from the gaming forum! Every time I think of them, my imagination goes rampant, I loose my concentration, most things go up,my gaming scores go down!
Personally I could care less if someone makes public their sexual orientation, as long as they don't try to use the place as a Dr. Phil platform and try to figure out their life and their "confusion" or whatever. They can go on facebook or myspace for that.

I don't understand why anyone feels the need to make anything like that public in a gaming forum anyway, where most of the users are probably 14-20 years young, and the majority of the ones a bit older than that still have the mental capacity of a 14 y.o., and that's why "After the woman revealed her homosexuality in her Xbox Live profile, she was continuously harassed" . Otherwise, no one would care, they would just say "okay,good for you, now go play on the carpet".
So why would anyone disclose anything like that? No reason.
Why would anyone mature enough have any kind of reaction to someone that discloses his/her orientation? No reason either. Both sides need to grow up.

153.3.2009 12:13

Originally posted by chubbyInc:
Keep the policy.
Xbox needs to draw the line somewhere and with the amount of young gamers I think it's good you can't post sexual preference keep the console for gaming, there are enough dating sites/places already.
Agreed. There have been users I had randomly met over the years who wanted all sorts of "clubs"...bestiality, sadism, even child pron. If there ever was a "proper" place for any of those things..WoW and/or XboxLive was NOT it. That is what Usenet is for. Anyway, Live and WoW are both flooded with 13 year olds. They don't need any "lifestyles" shoved in their face at such a young age.

163.3.2009 12:23

She was probably continually harassed by people who realized that she was an attention whore. Probably by people who don't necessarily hate gays, but hate the fact that she used an online gaming network as a forum for this kind of personal information. There are plenty of other forums where she can express herself. Honestly, do gay people walk around with signs on them that say "I'm Gay" these days? (no I'm not talking about parades). When I go to the supermarket (another "social" venue), I don't see women with "lesbian" signs on them (although a lot of "signs" do indicate their preference :P). How is a gaming social venue any different - other than being virtual? The same social rules should apply in both the physical and virtual world.

I would've been annoyed seeing this. I would be annoyed seeing any kind of sexual preference or even any hetero references or inuendos. There has to be a line drawn somewhere when it comes to creating a social gaming environment. I'd rather it be strict than loose. People complain about not being able to use absurd names. Why care? Just beat the high score and be off.

I don't think she should be banned. Warned is more appropriate. And someone should explain to her that the same social rules apply to both the real and virtual world.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Mar 2009 @ 12:26

173.3.2009 12:30

Quote:
Originally posted by chubbyInc:
Keep the policy.
Xbox needs to draw the line somewhere and with the amount of young gamers I think it's good you can't post sexual preference keep the console for gaming, there are enough dating sites/places already.
Agreed. There have been users I had randomly met over the years who wanted all sorts of "clubs"...bestiality, sadism, even child pron. If there ever was a "proper" place for any of those things..WoW and/or XboxLive was NOT it. That is what Usenet is for. Anyway, Live and WoW are both flooded with 13 year olds. They don't need any "lifestyles" shoved in their face at such a young age.
In my experience it's usually the 13-16 group that trash talk, scream racial/homophobic abuse and just generally need a slapping in most games... some of the stuff they come out with would make a sailor blush!! I blame the parents really... I have to put up with parents calling for banning of violent games, because some 13 year old on an 18+ game online who's parent's seem incapable of realising that the latest copy of NaziDoomKillerRapeVictimSquad4:TakingHitlerUpTheBumPineappleStyle was not suitable for little Freddie... Maybe xbl should start age-verifying new subscriptions with credit card/bank details - that way they could set profiles to adult only...

183.3.2009 12:41

it is their policy and it is there for a reason, Microsoft actually have my support on this one. There is always one that breaks the rules then moans about being punished. I feel that this policy should be there, because what happens next if they where to change their policy allowing this some wee dick would change his name to "all gays die" or something equally immature, someone would take offense to that and then Microsoft would be in trouble for allowing that kind of disrimination. They are simply protecting the feelings of many but in order to that some people will be hurt that can't be avoided. And further more it is a gaming world not a chat room or dating site.

193.3.2009 13:49

As a leader of a very large online forum I can completely understand Microsoft in this. You cannot make a rule for everything so you make them general and basic. In this case the girl broke the rules and it caused all sorts of problems (exactly the problems Microsoft was trying to avoid when making the rule) So she got banned. "Go make a new profile and come back when you can abide by the rules".

As for the whole argument "This wouldn't be a problem if she was professing a hetero preference..." that is true, because a hetero preference would most likely not become the spectacle and the problem that professing gaydome has. They don't want to make an unfair rule but the bottom line is that professing homosexuality causes problems so just don't do it. It's the disruption that is the problem, not the philosophy/sexualpreference/religion/whatever.
I hope that MS doesn't cave in on this.

203.3.2009 15:03

Originally posted by nil4t:
You guys are gay. That policy is gay.

edit by moderator- this user is obviously a schoolkid (and/or someone with gender hangups) who shouldn't be on the internet unsupervised
Lol, thats just teh awsomeness.


This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Mar 2009 @ 15:06

213.3.2009 16:19

Originally posted by ThePastor:
the bottom line is that professing homosexuality causes problems so just don't do it.
The bottom line is that this is what gay people have to deal with every day. She probably put it in her profile to seek out other LGBT regardless of unwanted attention. Strangers flipping out over what she does with her life is of no concern to her, and should be of no consequence as well.

Keep telling minorities that they have no place being themselves in the places you frequent. Maybe someday it'll actually work.

223.3.2009 16:25

Quote:
Originally posted by ThePastor:
the bottom line is that professing homosexuality causes problems so just don't do it.
The bottom line is that this is what gay people have to deal with every day. She probably put it in her profile to seek out other LGBT regardless of unwanted attention. Strangers flipping out over what she does with her life is of no concern to her, and should be of no consequence as well.

Keep telling minorities that they have no place being themselves in the places you frequent. Maybe someday it'll actually work.
The argument is whether or not any lifestyle, preference or anything of that personal nature should be shared in a video game network. Gay, straight, bi, curious, black, white, asian...whatever. Don't profess any sexuality - just game and get on with your life. Reaching out for attention doesn't belong in this venue. And they should apply to everyone.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Mar 2009 @ 16:26

233.3.2009 16:25

If Microsoft doesn't want this kind of thing to happen, they should remove the social aspects of their XBL platform. Why even have a profile or personalized gamertag? It's a stupid policy for 2 reasons:

1. Children shouldn't be on XBL anyways.
2. If you're trying to make gaming more social, it's folly to believe this sort of thing isn't going to come up.

Telling someone they've been banned because "some gamers found her lesbianism offensive" is just asking for a shitstorm. How about go after the people who do the harassing?

Another thing, for people who actually think like emugamer: It's border-line moronic to assume someone who self-identifies is automatically an "attention whore." It's also ridiculous to assume that the "good people" on Xbox Live harass someone not because of their sexuality, but because they indicate themselves as such. There's something called the invisibility theorem with regard to most types of bigotry. You've obviously never experienced it, and so you immediately assume that when it happens to others, it's no big deal or it's that person's fault. Let's not go down that road.

243.3.2009 16:31

Originally posted by tgok:
Another thing, for people who actually think like emugamer: It's border-line moronic to assume someone who self-identifies is automatically an "attention whore." It's also ridiculous to assume that the "good people" on Xbox Live harass someone not because of their sexuality, but because they indicate themselves as such. There's something called the invisibility theorem with regard to most types of bigotry. You've obviously never experienced it, and so you immediately assume that when it happens to others, it's no big deal or it's that person's fault. Let's not go down that road.
Identifying ones self: "Hi, I'm Sally."
Identifying ones self with alterior motives: "Hi, I'm Sally the Lesbian."

Why? What is the point in the context of gaming? Seems like attention to me. And that's from a logical pov - not bigotry. I wouldn't go as far as being nasty to that person, but I would have reported her, just as I would report a dude who may put in his profile: "I'm a dude who loves banging chicks."
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Mar 2009 @ 16:34

253.3.2009 16:40

Quote:
Originally posted by nil4t:
You guys are gay. That policy is gay.

edit by moderator- this user is obviously a schoolkid (and/or someone with gender hangups) who shouldn't be on the internet unsupervised
Lol, thats just teh awsomeness.



Is this on purpose or coincidental (since Sir Alec was gay)?
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Mar 2009 @ 16:44

263.3.2009 16:53

$$CHACHING$$

273.3.2009 17:07

Quote:
The argument is whether or not any lifestyle, preference or anything of that personal nature should be shared in a video game network. Gay, straight, bi, curious, black, white, asian...whatever. Don't profess any sexuality - just game and get on with your life. Reaching out for attention doesn't belong in this venue. And they should apply to everyone.
Absolutely! So let's actively stop talking about wives, husbands, kids, girlfriends, boyfriends.. Anything that identifies your orientation. Practice self-censorship! Avoid conversations that steer into that which other people don't want to hear. Really, do it for a day and see if you like it. LGBT are sure as hell tired of doing it.

283.3.2009 17:46

Wow, if we all wish hard enough then everyone in the world will become considerate people who respect others for who or what they are, all wars will be stopped, sickness a thing of the past and everyone will be hunkey-dorey.

It doesn't matter if one should respect anothers lifestyle, the fact is that identifying on a gamer site as a homosexual will be disruptive. You can wish that it wasn't disruptive all you want and that's not going to change it.

MS was trying to stop this kind of thing from happening so they asked their players to not post a sexual preference. It doesn't have anything at all to do with whether homosexuality is acceptable or not, it is about how disruptive it is.

XBL is a private network and if they wanted they could say "No HOMOSEXUALS ALLOWED." but they don't, they have a don't ask, don't tell policy, it was explained in the rules and TOS and this girl chose to ignore it.

293.3.2009 18:03

Quote:
Maybe xbl should start age-verifying new subscriptions with credit card/bank details - that way they could set profiles to adult only...

Well, actually, when XBL first came out, it WAS like that. I've "had" it since day one of it's launch. Originally you bought a "starter pack" (subscription+headset+game) and you entered the info on the card, then you were immediately prompted to enter credit card information. You couldn't bypass it. I ended up not being able to use the service for the entire first week because I didn't yet have a credit card! It was really nice playing launch titles back then. The ONLY voices I EVER encountered while playing were the voices of GROWN MEN. Everyone was MATURE in regards to speech and play habit.

I don't know when they changed it (I only know it was a long ass time ago). But I really miss those days. Nothing but GOOD CLEAN FUN with a group of like minded grown men. It's basically a substitute daycare center for 8-16yr olds now. The high pitch squeaky voices, the constant cheating, team killing, screaming, whining, threats, and insults. So sad.. ='(

303.3.2009 18:27

Amazingly there are twenty some odd posts here in this thread and not one person felt the desire to profess a sexual preference and yet, the world continued to revolve.

I keep wondering when it will be safe for us chronic masterbaters to come out of the closet!

313.3.2009 18:49

Originally posted by ThePastor:
Amazingly there are twenty some odd posts here in this thread and not one person felt the desire to profess a sexual preference and yet, the world continued to revolve.

I keep wondering when it will be safe for us chronic masterbaters to come out of the closet!
Come out of the closet? What are you talking about? There's no secret, it's a lifestyle...90% of the people do it, and the rest of 10% lie about it.

323.3.2009 18:58

Quote:

Well, actually, when XBL first came out, it WAS like that. I've "had" it since day one of it's launch. Originally you bought a "starter pack" (subscription+headset+game) and you entered the info on the card, then you were immediately prompted to enter credit card information. You couldn't bypass it. I ended up not being able to use the service for the entire first week because I didn't yet have a credit card! It was really nice playing launch titles back then. The ONLY voices I EVER encountered while playing were the voices of GROWN MEN. Everyone was MATURE in regards to speech and play habit.

I don't know when they changed it (I only know it was a long ass time ago). But I really miss those days. Nothing but GOOD CLEAN FUN with a group of like minded grown men. It's basically a substitute daycare center for 8-16yr olds now. The high pitch squeaky voices, the constant cheating, team killing, screaming, whining, threats, and insults. So sad.. ='(
Yeah, I remember it being alot nicer early on in the 360 lifecycle, couldn't really do live on my original xbox as I chipped it to put xbmc on there... I've a theory it was alright early on in 360 lifecycle too though because the console was too expensive for kids then... but now it's cheap as chips and any kid has one, Cod2 was last game I played online that had a nice feel to it.. since then gow1/2, cod3/4, halo3, etc, have either people cheating, team killing, screeching down line for fun, and insults... I've actually all but stopped playing ranked matches in anything now, just me and a close circle of friends play private matches.. like left 4 dead and sf4... i couldn't even join sf4 public games because people kick me for not being the person they wanted to fight... guessing that is their way of cheating too.. sigh... at least it was good for a while...

333.3.2009 21:13
cousinkix
Inactive

Quote:
Originally posted by ThePastor:
I keep wondering when it will be safe for us chronic masterbaters to come out of the closet!
Come out of the closet? What are you talking about? There's no secret, it's a lifestyle...90% of the people do it, and the rest of 10% lie about it.

How ironic thay you would mention this. I was listening to the police radio a few hours ago. They caught somebody whacking off in his car down by the beach. A few people drove by and reported this exhibitionist...
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Mar 2009 @ 21:15

343.3.2009 22:08

Id ban the lesbian to, after all what we don't know wont kill us.

Its in the XBL CoC 7th paragraph.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/legal/codeofconduct.htm

i have a few gay friends, doesn't mean they run around saying hey i'm gay are you.

whatever floats there boat, is there problem.

353.3.2009 22:09

"I don't know when they changed it (I only know it was a long ass time ago). But I really miss those days. Nothing but GOOD CLEAN FUN with a group of like minded grown men. It's basically a substitute daycare center for 8-16yr olds now. The high pitch squeaky voices, the constant cheating, team killing, screaming, whining, threats, and insults. So sad.. ='("

Are you talking about XBox in particular or the internet as a whole?

363.3.2009 23:09

people should really keep their status or orientation to themselves. unless u sound like a flaming blank blank blank.... than just keep ur info quiet.

people play on xbox for fun. not to learn that ur a proud homosexual.

gawd.

374.3.2009 0:00

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by chubbyInc:
Keep the policy.
Xbox needs to draw the line somewhere and with the amount of young gamers I think it's good you can't post sexual preference keep the console for gaming, there are enough dating sites/places already.
Agreed. There have been users I had randomly met over the years who wanted all sorts of "clubs"...bestiality, sadism, even child pron. If there ever was a "proper" place for any of those things..WoW and/or XboxLive was NOT it. That is what Usenet is for. Anyway, Live and WoW are both flooded with 13 year olds. They don't need any "lifestyles" shoved in their face at such a young age.
In my experience it's usually the 13-16 group that trash talk, scream racial/homophobic abuse and just generally need a slapping in most games... some of the stuff they come out with would make a sailor blush!! I blame the parents really... I have to put up with parents calling for banning of violent games, because some 13 year old on an 18+ game online who's parent's seem incapable of realising that the latest copy of NaziDoomKillerRapeVictimSquad4:TakingHitlerUpTheBumPineappleStyle was not suitable for little Freddie... Maybe xbl should start age-verifying new subscriptions with credit card/bank details - that way they could set profiles to adult only...
I agree, but in the end they're only going to do what makes them the most money, and telling people that they cant buy certain games or cant use an xbl account for games is going to hurt them financially and that's all they care about regardless of the gaming community as a whole.

384.3.2009 3:10

Originally posted by DoomLight:
people should really keep their status or orientation to themselves. unless u sound like a flaming blank blank blank.... than just keep ur info quiet.

people play on xbox for fun. not to learn that ur a proud homosexual.

gawd.

So you agree anyone who even says something like, "Well, I gotta go have dinner with my girlfriend!" should be banned from XBL?

394.3.2009 10:19

Quote:
Originally posted by DoomLight:
people should really keep their status or orientation to themselves. unless u sound like a flaming blank blank blank.... than just keep ur info quiet.

people play on xbox for fun. not to learn that ur a proud homosexual.

gawd.

So you agree anyone who even says something like, "Well, I gotta go have dinner with my girlfriend!" should be banned from XBL?
WTF,man no. you should be banned if you say well i got to go bang my girlfriend.

where not getting the full story here anyway.people just don't file a complaint because your a lesbo so she must have used it in a sexual form.

404.3.2009 12:55

What is it with people who are gay needing to announce to the world of thier sexual preferance?I dont give a monkeys who/what/where they copulate, and it does nothing for society's tolerance.They should shut the f^%k up and get a life.I dont announce myself as straight at every available opportunity.She should get a caning for bieng such a tw%t.

415.3.2009 6:50

Her gamer tag should be 'cunnilingus'.

425.3.2009 10:25

Quote:
Bottom line is that this is what gay people have to deal with every day.
This is what anyone would have to put up with, should they wish to express views of a sexual nature.

Quote:
Strangers flipping out over what she does with her life is of no concern to her, and should be of no consequence as well.
What she does in her own space is her business. When she broadcasts it on a public gaming site it automatically becomes other people's business. It should be her concern considering the age groups in question.

Quote:
Keep telling minorities that they have no place being themselves in the places you frequent. Maybe someday it'll actually work.
Hold your horses. That's not the view expressed to her, or anyone. If a user name or the views of that user are of an overtly sexual nature then the same rules apply regardless of their minority status.

445.3.2009 10:57

Sexual anything has no place on a gaming site period!
Stupid Bitch...

455.3.2009 11:17
mazaar
Inactive

Originally posted by xnonsuchx:
Would "Halo3TeabagKing" be an acceptable gamertag? ;-)

The problem with some of these policies is that they often have double-standards. I believe XBL and PSN's policies also say users of the service should be at least 18yo, so there should be no need to 'protect children' (which I believe IS a good thing in other circumstances).

This 'policy' would supposedly also not allow anyone to even make ANY reference to their "girlfriend/boyfriend" or even "wife/husband" -- I seriously doubt THAT hasn't been commonplace and goes by w/o a mention or warning from administrators of the service. The policy should be more about punishing users for general rudeness or maliciously attacking other users. If someone online is gay, doesn't have a rude nickname, but casually mentions having a girlfriend/boyfriend (apparently of the same sex), it should be no big deal to anyone (with a decent head on their shoulders). If someone's THROWING intimate details of their personal life 'unwelcomedly' at people, however, that is rude behavior and deserves at least a warning to quit that behavior.

I still think users getting away w/ malicious attacks on others is a FAR bigger problem. If you can't be respectful of others in a (virtual) society, perhaps you should not be in it.
i take it you are gay ?

465.3.2009 13:21

Originally posted by ThePastor:
It doesn't matter if one should respect anothers lifestyle, the fact is that identifying on a gamer site as a homosexual will be disruptive. You can wish that it wasn't disruptive all you want and that's not going to change it. ... XBL is a private network and if they wanted they could say "No HOMOSEXUALS ALLOWED." but they don't, they have a don't ask, don't tell policy, it was explained in the rules and TOS and this girl chose to ignore it.
Yeah, just like in the old South, a business could post WHITES ONLY if they wanted. :P Those were the rules, and people had to respect them. Gag.

475.3.2009 14:13

Quote:
Originally posted by ThePastor:
It doesn't matter if one should respect anothers lifestyle, the fact is that identifying on a gamer site as a homosexual will be disruptive. You can wish that it wasn't disruptive all you want and that's not going to change it. ... XBL is a private network and if they wanted they could say "No HOMOSEXUALS ALLOWED." but they don't, they have a don't ask, don't tell policy, it was explained in the rules and TOS and this girl chose to ignore it.
Yeah, just like in the old South, a business could post WHITES ONLY if they wanted. :P Those were the rules, and people had to respect them. Gag.

Wow, did you really just go there? That level of racism is nowhere near how homophobes in society affect gay people. And, secondly, they aren't banning people because they are gay, they don't run a Google search on the name listed on the credit card you pay for the Live subscription with and go "Oh, it's another God-damned queer! Boot 'em!" They ban people for ADVERTISING their sexual preference in their gamercard bio.

485.3.2009 14:40
varnull
Inactive

I honestly don't see what this problem is about in the first place. Why should expressing your sexual preference be against any rules in the first place?.. don't give me the "protect children" rubbish.. because children are supposed to recieve education in these matters from the age of about 11 anyway. Anybody with kids of school age.. I dare you.. go ask them what a lesbian is.. and I'm sure they will happily educate you with what they have learned in school. The "protect our children" angle is BS.. and we all know it.. hiding the world and reality from children is a crime against those very same children.. It's easy enough to explain to an interested child what a lesbian is..

Mow as to the M$ angle.. they apologised.. obviously somebody in their HR department pointed out the employment laws they operate under where it is illegal to discriminate against any person on grounds of race gender or sexual preference. It still happens and is still rife, but that doesn't make it any less illegal to do. As a business and an employer they are not allowed to discriminate.. at most all they should have done was ask the user politely to remove the part in their profile.. and if the user failed to comply to remove it for them and leave them a message stating why it had been edited.

Sadly for some of the posters across the internet.. they seem to be unaware that being open about your sexual preferences is completely allowed and legal. It's a matter of personal choice how much you decide to tell anybody. No laws are being broken by providing information to others... but banning that choice is very likely breaking some laws somewhere... you say black lesbian.. or gay./. or bi.. banned.. where white middle class straight hetero.. would most likely be ignored.. so there is discrimination on grounds of sexual preference.

The fact it is in the rules shows that the discrimination exists, at least in the minds of the rule authors.. otherwise they would not have even thought of applying them in this matter.. case proven.

495.3.2009 14:56
ericg8
Inactive

I am a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

Microsoft is offensive....and their stuff is generally crap.

505.3.2009 15:38

Originally posted by ericg8:
I am a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

Microsoft is offensive....and their stuff is generally crap.
LOL.

515.3.2009 16:20

Theres a time and a place for learning about or pushing your sexual preferance. If you're trying to meet people of a certain sexual persuasion, navagate yourself to the nearest online dating page.
If you're GAMING the idea is to GAME.
Keep your sexual referances out of the equation, between consenting ADULTS....Whats the problem ?

525.3.2009 16:34
ericg8
Inactive

Originally posted by BUDDD:
...If you're GAMING the idea is to GAME.
Keep your sexual referances out of the equation...
At least there's ONE person in the gaming community that's actually getting some vagigi! LOL

535.3.2009 17:08

I am a man trapped in a mans body.....

545.3.2009 17:22
ericg8
Inactive

Originally posted by BUDDD:
I am a man trapped in a mans body.
Perhaps if you ask him to unclench his buttocks, he will let you out

555.3.2009 18:21

A website is a privately owned space and not a democratic entity. They are completely entitled to create any rule they desire and enforce that rule in any way, fairly or unfairly as they wish.
Certainly they are required to abide by US labor laws with respect to hiring practices but the webspace is private.
Their only limitation is one of perception. If it is perceived that they are bigots then their bottom line will suffer.

Just like Afterdawn can create their rules here and ask their users to abide by them and enforce them as they wish.

In this case MS is not being unfair. They laid the rules out ahead of time. This user broke the rules and caused a severe disruption.
It seems pretty cut and dried to me.

566.3.2009 0:54
onya
Inactive

Quote:
....we're not getting the full story here...
You can almost bet your last paycheck we are not getting all the information with regards to Teresa. A reasonable statement at this point would be that we are left un-informed for the most part. We may never know what kind of interactions have taken place within that sphere. We are left with a person crying discrimination, harassment and a high profile company backtracking and trying to save face. A fair assessment wouldn't you think?
If Teresa has broken the rules then she must accept the consequences, and if she has not, then Teresa deserves justice.

The absurdity of all this, has to be some of the comments and thoughts contained within this thread. Some have made me laugh, some of the others have left me completely gob smacked. Why would anyone want any person of any persuasion, forcing their views down our throats. It is simply not on and as individuals we don't tolerate it at all. Conversely however, other comments have suggested that we hide it...bury it and have it underground so as not to offend, confuse or challenge. Surely this view would seem a little odd and out of place to any informed, intelligent, enlightened and able human being. Just a touch of the Medieval going on with that one I think.

The individuals concerned in the alleged harassment are probably reasonable people within their homes and family environments, but get them all together and the outcome is predictable. With a mix of severe immaturity, coupled with the anonymity of the web, how could we expect anything different.

There is one safe bet however, and that is such company's will always make a fortune from the backs of unwary parents. I sincerely doubt that such company's even raise an eyebrow with these issues. Outward expressions of course will always but always tell a different story.

576.3.2009 1:59
abby111
Inactive

Microsoft is awesome , no one can make no mistake ,and the most important is when you realized your mistake you can apologiae for it.so in my opinion Microsoft is awesome.
ok have comfortable topic, here i have a good share :
SPAM , it is the best onling shopping place i have ever see. kinds of beautiful electroncs with high quality and lower price!

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 Mar 2009 @ 9:57

586.3.2009 2:33

Originally posted by abby111:
Microsoft is awesome , no one can make no mistake ,and the most important is when you realized your mistake you can apologiae for it.so in my opinion Microsoft is awesome.
ok have comfortable topic, here i have a good share :
SPAM , it is the best onling shopping place i have ever see. kinds of beautiful electroncs with high quality and lower price!
¿...?
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 Mar 2009 @ 9:57

596.3.2009 2:50
varnull
Inactive

Originally posted by ThePastor:
A website is a privately owned space and not a democratic entity. They are completely entitled to create any rule they desire and enforce that rule in any way, fairly or unfairly as they wish.
Certainly they are required to abide by US labor laws with respect to hiring practices but the webspace is private.
Their only limitation is one of perception. If it is perceived that they are bigots then their bottom line will suffer.

Just like Afterdawn can create their rules here and ask their users to abide by them and enforce them as they wish.

In this case MS is not being unfair. They laid the rules out ahead of time. This user broke the rules and caused a severe disruption.
It seems pretty cut and dried to me.
I hope you realise that as soon as a website becomes a commercial paid for service it becomes liable for all the anti-discrimination legislation in every country it is accessible from... free to use forums are a different matter.. there any rules made can be 100% at the discretion of the owners of the site.. once you start taking money then various laws regarding use and access to the service and any discriminatory policies contained within rules can be challenged under the laws of whatever country either the site is based in.. or the complainant is from.

My previous post still stands.. M$ screwed up and have realised their rules are discriminatory... whether by accident or design they have learned another lesson about the world. Allowing people the option to say things about themselves is one thing.,. censoring them for expressing a preference which is legal to express is discrimination not a simple matter of rule breaking. The "no sexual content" means just that.. saying "oh.. I happen to be a lesbian/by/gay/trans" is not illegal and breaks no rules. If you are so bigoted and backward thinking that such statements offend you I suggest you either get an education rapidly, or rethink what religion you claim to belong to.. because you are the dinosaur.. it's the 21st century not the middle ages (though some countries are returning to them it seems). The world has changed beyond recognition.. while in practice discrimination through bigotry and hate of difference still hides behind religion and mob hysteria.. it is another thing entirely for a large company to use such lame excuses to discriminate against anyone. A few people complained they didn't like the word lesbian on a profile.. guess what.. get over it.. there are far worse things on XBL than the word lesbian.. or do you not have ears. I spent 3 minutes on there.. and that was enough for me. I don't want to hear foul mouthed homophobic racist kids screaming abuse at everybody.. no thanks. It's about playing games.. not being as offensive as possible to everybody.

606.3.2009 3:33

Quote:
Originally posted by ThePastor:
A website is a privately owned space and not a democratic entity. They are completely entitled to create any rule they desire and enforce that rule in any way, fairly or unfairly as they wish.
Certainly they are required to abide by US labor laws with respect to hiring practices but the webspace is private.
Their only limitation is one of perception. If it is perceived that they are bigots then their bottom line will suffer.

Just like Afterdawn can create their rules here and ask their users to abide by them and enforce them as they wish.

In this case MS is not being unfair. They laid the rules out ahead of time. This user broke the rules and caused a severe disruption.
It seems pretty cut and dried to me.
I hope you realise that as soon as a website becomes a commercial paid for service it becomes liable for all the anti-discrimination legislation in every country it is accessible from... free to use forums are a different matter.. there any rules made can be 100% at the discretion of the owners of the site.. once you start taking money then various laws regarding use and access to the service and any discriminatory policies contained within rules can be challenged under the laws of whatever country either the site is based in.. or the complainant is from.

My previous post still stands.. M$ screwed up and have realised their rules are discriminatory... whether by accident or design they have learned another lesson about the world. Allowing people the option to say things about themselves is one thing.,. censoring them for expressing a preference which is legal to express is discrimination not a simple matter of rule breaking. The "no sexual content" means just that.. saying "oh.. I happen to be a lesbian/by/gay/trans" is not illegal and breaks no rules. If you are so bigoted and backward thinking that such statements offend you I suggest you either get an education rapidly, or rethink what religion you claim to belong to.. because you are the dinosaur.. it's the 21st century not the middle ages (though some countries are returning to them it seems). The world has changed beyond recognition.. while in practice discrimination through bigotry and hate of difference still hides behind religion and mob hysteria.. it is another thing entirely for a large company to use such lame excuses to discriminate against anyone. A few people complained they didn't like the word lesbian on a profile.. guess what.. get over it.. there are far worse things on XBL than the word lesbian.. or do you not have ears. I spent 3 minutes on there.. and that was enough for me. I don't want to hear foul mouthed homophobic racist kids screaming abuse at everybody.. no thanks. It's about playing games.. not being as offensive as possible to everybody.

But regardless of what you, or anyone else think about the issue, the woman broke the rules she agreed to when she joined Live. Microsoft has the right to deny her service for that. That's completely within US law.
And, again, the issue wasn't her being a lesbian, but her advertising her sexual preference. If in my gamer profile, which anyone using the Live service can see, I said that I liked girls with large breasts, I'd be banned. If I said I liked penis, I'd be banned.

However, if she were in a private session over Live with people she knew and discussed issues she had with a girlfriend over the headset, no one would care. She wouldn't have been reported, or been banned.

I'd also like to point out that Microsoft is in Washington. Have you ever been up here? We're pretty darn accepting.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 Mar 2009 @ 3:36

616.3.2009 3:33
onya
Inactive

Originally posted by abby111:
Microsoft is awesome , no one can make no mistake ,and the most important is when you realized your mistake you can apologiae for it.so in my opinion Microsoft is awesome.
ok have comfortable topic, here i have a good share :
SPAM , it is the best onling shopping place i have ever see. kinds of beautiful electroncs with high quality and lower price!
Ahhh another voice of reason amongst the chaos, hoping to make a fortune from any and all feckwits that happen to admire such an intelligent and well thought out post.

Dearest Abby, it is with the greatest pleasure, that I and some of my fellow members say to you with absolute heart felt unity....

PI$$ OFF!

go peddle your crap elsewhere...

yours sincerely

most of us here.. XD
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 Mar 2009 @ 9:57

626.3.2009 4:38

Quote:
After the woman revealed her homosexuality in her Xbox Live profile, she was continuously harassed, and Microsoft banned her account, saying many gamers found "her lesbianism offensive."/quote]To me this is ridiculous. We live in a world now that people regardless of sexual preference should be treated the same. I don't see how this users sexual preference would effect anyone. If you have a issue with it due to the fact that it has religious reasoning thats your opinion but i say its the users choice so be it. Let her live her life and live your own.

636.3.2009 17:10

Originally posted by "The always right and never wrong... Varnell":
If you are so bigoted and backward thinking that such statements offend you I suggest you either get an education rapidly, or rethink what religion you claim to belong to.. because you are the dinosaur.. it's the 21st century not the middle ages (though some countries are returning to them it seems). The world has changed beyond recognition.. while in practice discrimination through bigotry and hate of difference still hides behind religion and mob hysteria.. it is another thing entirely for a large company to use such lame excuses to discriminate against anyone.

Why do you call me a bigot, insult or attack my "religion" which you don't even know what it is and then insult me as a "dinosaur" or from the "middle ages"?
A) I have never been, nor will I ever be a bigot of any kind and my words and deeds express this entirely.
B) You have no clue what my religion is or isn't so have no basis for criticism.
C) I am a very enlightened, modern man who understands the intricacies of running a large online space. I have a great amount of experience doing it. I'm not some middle aged bumkin pulling crap out of my ass.

I've never insulted you or your opinions. I have no idea why you have reacted in this way and I demand an apology.

If you cannot debate an issue intelligently and without insults and attacks then maybe you should take a day or two off.

Oh, Im sorry... Did the middle of my sentence interrupt the beginning of yours?

646.3.2009 21:04
varnull
Inactive

If the cap fits.... I must have hit a nerve.. Are you a bigoted dinosaur then.. a bible bashing turd from the mid west retard belt? did you see me use any more than generalisations about a certain category of people who love to attack and complain about anything that "offends" their twisted morals?

I have been admin on more than one commercial site.. that's how I happen to know what the law is regarding discrimination (whether through set down rules or otherwise) against customers.

The whole point of this topic has been missed.. M$ made a mistake.. acted in a discriminatory fashion against a minority.. and apologised.. nothing else to say really.. They know they got it wrong.. and the opinions of anybody who does not and has not ever been employed to run a commercial website doesn't matter..


BTW.. behind your back we call you "the moron" lol .. want proof of that too.. or will you also act like you have been hurt by some generalisations about the wider internet PC brigade.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 Mar 2009 @ 21:21

656.3.2009 22:44
ericg8
Inactive

Originally posted by ThePastor:
Originally posted by "Why do you call me a bigot, insult or attack my "religion" which you don't even know what it is and then insult me as a "dinosaur" or from the "middle ages"?...[/quote:
By using the handle "ThePastor", you are putting your religion out there for all to see, and while we might not know what particular brand you promote, we would be pretty safe in speculating that it is a Christian variant. It may surprise you to know that many people are tired of the conflicts, political turbulence, bigotry, intolerance, and hate, fomented by followers and leaders of your various sects.

Given your alleged senior position, we might infer that you are in fact old relative to venues like this with a traditionally young audience, making you a dinosaur, or "old creepy guy at the club" if you prefer.

And, given the archaic basis for your faith, stone tablets, dusty scrolls, ancient rituals, etc, we might also describe your value system as more appropriate to the middle ages.

You will no doubt feel attacked by our concerns and observations based partially upon your handle, but the victim in this story may be guilty of little more than identifying herself by attributes she holds dear just as you have. Perhaps her handle is "TheLesbian", to which bible-thumpers and alterboy humpers all go balistic.

667.3.2009 0:26

Is it me or is thread getting hot, almost flaming.

677.3.2009 0:36
onya
Inactive

Originally posted by DXR88:
Is it me or is thread getting hot, almost flaming.

And I thought living here in Australia got a little warm! I think you might be right DXR88, things are heating up just a tad. :)

688.3.2009 1:25

Originally posted by varnull:
If the cap fits.... I must have hit a nerve.. Are you a bigoted dinosaur then.. a bible bashing turd from the mid west retard belt? did you see me use any more than generalisations about a certain category of people who love to attack and complain about anything that "offends" their twisted morals?

I have been admin on more than one commercial site.. that's how I happen to know what the law is regarding discrimination (whether through set down rules or otherwise) against customers.

The whole point of this topic has been missed.. M$ made a mistake.. acted in a discriminatory fashion against a minority.. and apologised.. nothing else to say really.. They know they got it wrong.. and the opinions of anybody who does not and has not ever been employed to run a commercial website doesn't matter..


BTW.. behind your back we call you "the moron" lol .. want proof of that too.. or will you also act like you have been hurt by some generalisations about the wider internet PC brigade.

Learn to properly use elipses, Varnull.

They weren't discriminating, they banned her for from the service for breaking the contract she agreed to when she subscribed to it by advertising a sexual preference. And don't pretend Microsoft as a whole feels remorse for this incident, they're covering their collective ass from the media blitz this received.
Originally posted by Eric8:
Originally posted by ThePastor:
"Why do you call me a bigot, insult or attack my "religion" which you don't even know what it is and then insult me as a "dinosaur" or from the "middle ages"?...
By using the handle "ThePastor", you are putting your religion out there for all to see, and while we might not know what particular brand you promote, we would be pretty safe in speculating that it is a Christian variant. It may surprise you to know that many people are tired of the conflicts, political turbulence, bigotry, intolerance, and hate, fomented by followers and leaders of your various sects.

Given your alleged senior position, we might infer that you are in fact old relative to venues like this with a traditionally young audience, making you a dinosaur, or "old creepy guy at the club" if you prefer.

And, given the archaic basis for your faith, stone tablets, dusty scrolls, ancient rituals, etc, we might also describe your value system as more appropriate to the middle ages.

You will no doubt feel attacked by our concerns and observations based partially upon your handle, but the victim in this story may be guilty of little more than identifying herself by attributes she holds dear just as you have. Perhaps her handle is "TheLesbian", to which bible-thumpers and alterboy humpers all go balistic.

Learn to use quote tags, Eric.


Keep generalizing religious folk, that's not a closed way of thinking at all. 9_9

Believe it or not, there are normal people who believe in a creator... Calling every religious person bitter and crazy is just as bad as the people who fit that bill calling atheists malicious and hateful. On the same note, you call those who believe in a certain God closed-minded for complaining about people who do things that conflict with their beliefs, and that's bad, and yet you turn around and call them idiots for doing things that conflict with your beliefs, and that's fine. Weird how that works.
Not to say I agree with the uptight radical holier-than-thou types, but you can't generalize a group of people and base an argument against their generalizations on generalizations of your own.

The only closed-minded and truly bitter or hateful people I've seen in this thread are you two, who claim that people with beliefs that differ from yours are closed-minded and bitter.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 08 Mar 2009 @ 1:44


698.3.2009 1:51
ericg8
Inactive

Originally posted by nintenut:
Believe it or not, there are normal people who believe in a creator... Calling every religious person bitter and crazy is just as bad as the people who fit that bill calling atheists wicked.

The only closed-minded and truly bitter or hateful people I've seen in this thread are you two, who claim that people with beliefs that differ from yours are closed-minded and bitter.

All these nested quotes are confusing, no?

I was responding to one particular person who defended casting out a participant based upon her professed sexual preference. And, while certainly not all religious people are such bigots, it would seem that a majority if not all such bigots defend their actions with numerous references to their chosen brand of religious Kool-aid.

I was also defending attacks against another responder who in my opinion made some valid if not eloquently presented points.

I was also having some fun at ThePastor's expense. Shame on me. But it was so much fun. A guilty pleasure perhaps, using words and truth to poke fun at someone that clings so vehemently to their chosen word and truth.

Finally on a more serious note, I will not hesitate to vigorously protect the weak and outnumbered in any way that I can, be they religious or atheist, lesbian or straight. I will speak up for them, as I would hope that you would speak up for me. I cannot believe in this enlightened age when we have elected blacks, clergy, gays, women, the physically handicapped, and even retards to the highest offices in the land, that truly narrow-minded companies and individuals would still seek to deny fair and even treatment to any law-abiding person based upon what they think or feel, or any inherent quality of their being. And if you find that offensive, close-minded or bitter, then I feel sorry for you.

708.3.2009 4:46

This thread is on Fire Baby, Yeah!!!

718.3.2009 4:47
mazaar
Inactive

Originally posted by varnull:
If the cap fits.... I must have hit a nerve.. Are you a bigoted dinosaur then.. a bible bashing turd from the mid west retard belt? did you see me use any more than generalisations about a certain category of people who love to attack and complain about anything that "offends" their twisted morals?

I have been admin on more than one commercial site.. that's how I happen to know what the law is regarding discrimination (whether through set down rules or otherwise) against customers.

The whole point of this topic has been missed.. M$ made a mistake.. acted in a discriminatory fashion against a minority.. and apologised.. nothing else to say really.. They know they got it wrong.. and the opinions of anybody who does not and has not ever been employed to run a commercial website doesn't matter..


BTW.. behind your back we call you "the moron" lol .. want proof of that too.. or will you also act like you have been hurt by some generalisations about the wider internet PC brigade.
its a messed up world when a freak of nature thinks that your a bigot or bible basher for thinking that 2 animals of the same sex shouldnt have go together, you are a pervert,its you that are wrong,its you that should hide in shame.fashion dictates that we pretend perverts & cripples are equal to the rest of society,roll on the next fashion.

728.3.2009 4:52

Fight,Fight,Fight. whoohooo!!!!

738.3.2009 5:02

The bitter and hateful bit was directed at the points you made against those who believe in a God, like the cult references in both of your posts... And discounting any religion because it's old, that's bull. I'm just really tired of your condescending Youtube Atheist attitude.

I'm not saying that it isn't possible for any God to not exist, it's just the religion I'm committed to and I'm going to defend it. You're defending yours. We can keep going on this topic for an eternity, and neither of us will have swayed the other in his direction of thinking.

Anyway, that's the problem with this situation... I agree that they shouldn't ban people for being gay, and they don't, what they don't want is for people to advertise their sexual preferences, which you agree not to do when you sign up for Live through the TOS, which she broke and was banned for. (How many times have I said that so far? And no one has argued against it... That's what it boils down to, right?)

I approve of this only because the girl broke the rules set by the company for the service she subscribed to. Companies are allowed to do that. If the rule was "NO HOMOS", I'd be against it, and as pointed out by Varnull, would probably break some law somewhere, but it's not, and doesn't.



748.3.2009 13:43
varnull
Inactive

sorry.. the way they applied it IS discriminatory.. and THEY DID break more than one law... Any BS tos they force people to sign has been proved time and time again to never overthrow local laws.

as for god...

so some supreme being created the whole universe.. and decided to tell some goatherders scrabbling about in a semi-desert.. and didn't give them ANY proof.

If I don't believe that fairy tale then some angel this supreme and all forgiving being threw out of paradise will burn me alive forever..

Bring on the pink elephants and aliens *giggles*

758.3.2009 13:52
ericg8
Inactive

Originally posted by nintenut:
\And discounting any religion because it's old, that's bull. I'm just really tired of your condescending Youtube Atheist attitude.
The irony is, that I would just as willingly defend you, should you ever be denied access to an establishment because say, you are wearing a cross or carrying a bible. I'm not gay, but I find your irrational fear of homos a bit frightening. Especially when it is codified it into corporate or government policy. What next? No gun owners? No Jews? No witches? I seriously doubt she was behaving in an inappropriate manner. She just didn't hide who she is. The horror!

Originally posted by nintenut:
The bitter and hateful bit was directed at the points you made against those who believe in a God, like the cult references in both of your posts
You are so quick to defend your beliefs, your skin so thin. And yet, you support the ousting of this girl for simply exposing who she is. Stop a minute and think about that.... If MS made a rule "no Jews", would you defend that? What if they said, Jews are permitted, but only if they keep us from finding out that they are Jewish. Is that better? You see the line between banning a group, and only banning them from identifying with that group is a fine line indeed. So are you going on record as defending that sort of thing? What if it were Christians being singled out? What if it were Wiccans? What if it were Atheists?

I suspect that the only group you are going to defend is Christians. And you decry my "condescending Youtube attitude."

768.3.2009 23:11

It's not a no homos rule, though, it's a no sexual talk rule. I woudn't be complaining if they didn't allow religious talk. I wouldn't care if people were being banned for identifying themselves as being a part of any religion in their Live profile if there were a rule for that, the key is to follow the rules set for a service when using it...

And of course I'm going to defend myself, you grouped me in with radicals... I never defended radicals, I defended those of us who aren't, quit trying to twist my words.

I neither hate nor fear homosexuals. I live in Seattle, the whole city is gay, I don't give a f*ck. I'm saying that Microsoft is allowed to ban her because she broke a rule about discussing sexual preference. Again, IF I SAID I LIKE TO F*CK WOMEN IN MY PROFILE, I EXPECT TO BE BANNED.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 08 Mar 2009 @ 23:23


778.3.2009 23:59
ericg8
Inactive

Originally posted by nintenut:
It's not a no homos rule, though, it's a no sexual talk rule... I neither hate nor fear homosexuals. I live in Seattle, the whole city is gay, I don't give a f*ck. I'm saying that Microsoft is allowed to ban her because she broke a rule about discussing sexual preference. Again, IF I SAID I LIKE TO F*CK WOMEN IN MY PROFILE, I EXPECT TO BE BANNED.
1) No one said she discussed sex, rather she simply identified herself as a lesbian.

2) Being a lesbian is not indicative of one's proclivity to engage in s*xual intercourse.

3) Just because it is a rule, it doesn't make it legal or right. I'm sure both pre-war Germany and the old south had all kinds of rules. I doubt anyone would suggest that enforcement of those rules was a good thing.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 09 Mar 2009 @ 0:52

789.3.2009 0:23

Originally posted by ericg8:
Originally posted by nintenut:
It's not a no homos rule, though, it's a no sexual talk rule... I neither hate nor fear homosexuals. I live in Seattle, the whole city is gay, I don't give a f*ck. I'm saying that Microsoft is allowed to ban her because she broke a rule about discussing sexual preference. Again, IF I SAID I LIKE TO F*CK WOMEN IN MY PROFILE, I EXPECT TO BE BANNED.
1) No one said she discussed sex, rather she simply identified herself as a lesbian.

2) Being a lesbian has nothing to with who a person likes to fuck, or even if they like fuck at all.

3) Just because it is a rule, it doesn't make it legal or right. I'm sure both Nazi Germany and the old south had all kinds of rules. You gonna defend those too?

#1 and #2) Being a lesbian means you, as a woman, are sexually attracted to other women.
Originally posted by dictionary.com:
ho⋅mo⋅sex⋅u⋅al⋅i⋅ty [hoh-muh-sek-shoo-al-i-tee, or, especially Brit., -seks-yoo-]

–noun
sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex.

3) Of course I'm not going to defend the murder of millions of people, that would be ridiculous. Like comparing the banning of a person who broke a rule from an online gaming service to the Holocaust, that wouldn't make any sense for me to do.

That rule is in place because they know it's going to cause problems. And it did, it said she was harassed by homophobes.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 09 Mar 2009 @ 0:34


799.3.2009 0:46
ericg8
Inactive

Originally posted by nintenut:
Being a lesbian means you, as a woman, are sexually attracted to other women.
There are states of being that are beyond one's control. These do not result from a decision but rather are inherent to one's internal make-up. These inherent conditions include gender, sexual orientation, nationality, race, etc.

The fact that a person is a Jew, lesbian, or African-American is not the result of a choice. And identifying one's self as a member of such a group is not the same as discussing religion, gender, sex, or race.

If she was soliciting sexual encounters then fine, a line was crossed. But, we cannot on one hand respect the right of an individual to belong to an inherent class, a protected class, and then place upon them the burden of keeping it a secret. For if we are to do that, then we don't really respect their right to be free from harassment and persecution for being a member of that group.

I would suggest that perhaps Microsoft went after the wrong people in this. I would hope that their recognition of this fact is what led to their decision to reverse their action and issue an apology.

Since you nintenut live in such a diverse environment, perhaps you can ask one of your fellow citizens to help you understand this complicated issue, before you offend any more people.

809.3.2009 1:38

Originally posted by ericg8:
Originally posted by nintenut:
Being a lesbian means you, as a woman, are sexually attracted to other women.
There are states of being that are beyond one's control. These do not result from a decision but rather are inherent to one's internal make-up. These inherent conditions include gender, sexual orientation, nationality, race, etc.

The fact that a person is a Jew, lesbian, or African-American is not the result of a choice. And identifying one's self as a member of such a group is not the same as discussing religion, gender, sex, or race.

If she was soliciting sexual encounters then fine, a line was crossed. But, we cannot on one hand respect the right of an individual to belong to an inherent class, a protected class, and then place upon them the burden of keeping it a secret. For if we are to do that, then we don't really respect their right to be free from harassment and persecution for being a member of that group.

I would suggest that perhaps Microsoft went after the wrong people in this. I would hope that their recognition of this fact is what led to their decision to reverse their action and issue an apology.

Since you nintenut live in such a diverse environment, perhaps you can ask one of your fellow citizens to help you understand this complicated issue, before you offend any more people.

Oh, yes, I'm sure I've offended the eyebrows off of hundreds of gay people. 9_9

I know most gay people can't help the way they feel, and I don't think they should feel ashamed, it's just how they are. I have never said or thought otherwise.

I'm not saying they need to keep it a secret, I'm saying they shouldn't advertise it. Learn to read sentences. Saying that you are attracted to certain types of people isn't something you say as you're shaking someone's hand, is it?
"Hey, my names Bob, I like girls with big jugs"?
If it came up in casual conversation during a gaming session it wouldn't have been a ban-able thing, she wouldn't have broken any rules. Homophobes would probably flip, but that's just on them.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 09 Mar 2009 @ 1:41


819.3.2009 2:36
ericg8
Inactive

Well nintenut, now that you put it that way, I guess you are right after all.

Being visibly gay, African-American, female or Jewish is a lot like telling strangers that you "like girls with big jugs". I mean who doesn't! Especially that chick banned by MS. LOL! Not like we're "GAY" or anything. Not that there is anything wrong with that! (wink)

From now on African-Americans should drink at their own drinking fountains so that we aren't uncomfortable. Separate but equal, nothing racial or anything. I'd hate to catch black!

And Jews, perhaps they could change their names to something less Jewish. No reason to "advertise"! Perhaps a nice gentile name. If they don't, perhaps we can make them wear arm bands so we can avoid them in public. We don't want to be uncomfortable.

Women, I mean who are they kidding, right? Why do they have to say "I'm Ms. or Mrs. so-and-so" when making an introduction? They are practically advertising that they have a vagina! Can't they just keep that a secret and stay in the secretarial pool, make coffee, and...who are we kidding, they belong at home, cooking, cleaning, and making babies!

And those zany gays. I mean, I liked Three's Company as much as anybody, but can't they just stay in the closet, for Christ sake! What with their lisps and affects, it's almost like they are practically advertising their homo-nicity.

But nintenut, we are obviously enlightened. Why, Seattle is practically all fagged up! And my town has its share of Jews and Nig...I mean negros. LOL! You and I are teflon! Hell, my sister even banged a Jew and a black guy in college, AND kissed a girl on the lips, so you know I am modern egalitarian guy.

Nothing to see here folks. Nintenut has set me straight! (not that I wasn't already LOL - big jugs rock!)

829.3.2009 7:15

Alright, tangent man, just keep twisting my words.

Outside of a relationship, that's all it is, a sexual attraction to a certain type of people. Constantly putting out your sexual attractions, or saying you're sexually attracted to certain people as an introduction, is still weird, gay or straight. It has to be in the right context.

Where are you going with the hateful racist thing?



839.3.2009 10:11
ericg8
Inactive

Originally posted by nintenut:
Outside of a relationship, that's all it is, a sexual attraction to a certain type of people. Constantly putting out your sexual attractions, or saying you're sexually attracted to certain people as an introduction, is still weird, gay or straight. It has to be in the right context.
No twisting required.

She simply revealed her orientation, and you find this offensive.

She was "continuously harassed" by others who also found this offensive.

What if she was say a school teacher, and revealed her orientation. In that "context" would you find it offensive? How about if she were running for public office? Applying for a job with your company? Moving in next door?

Let us know, we would not want you to be offended.

849.3.2009 17:12

Originally posted by ericg8:
Originally posted by nintenut:
Outside of a relationship, that's all it is, a sexual attraction to a certain type of people. Constantly putting out your sexual attractions, or saying you're sexually attracted to certain people as an introduction, is still weird, gay or straight. It has to be in the right context.
No twisting required.

She simply revealed her orientation, and you find this offensive.

She was "continuously harassed" by others who also found this offensive.

What if she was say a school teacher, and revealed her orientation. In that "context" would you find it offensive? How about if she were running for public office? Applying for a job with your company? Moving in next door?

Let us know, we would not want you to be offended.

The only thing in this entire situation I was offended by was the complaining this caused, from people like you, who seem to think she has her sexual attractions tattooed on her forehead from birth and can't help it. There's a difference between hiding something and bringing it up at an appropriate time.
I'm defending Microsoft's ability to ban people for breaking the rules they set up, and saying that it was an odd thing for her to do.

Yeah she received harassment from homophobes, I already said that, I imagine that's partly why the rule is there in the first place.

And what if she was a teacher? What if she moved in next door, or ran for office, or any other situations you throw in from left field, who would care? If her introduction to her class was "I'm Ms. So-and-so, and I'm a lesbian", it would be an odd thing for her to do.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 09 Mar 2009 @ 17:21


8514.3.2009 0:12

Quote:
Originally posted by ThePastor:
A website is a privately owned space and not a democratic entity. They are completely entitled to create any rule they desire and enforce that rule in any way, fairly or unfairly as they wish.
Certainly they are required to abide by US labor laws with respect to hiring practices but the webspace is private.
Their only limitation is one of perception. If it is perceived that they are bigots then their bottom line will suffer.

Just like Afterdawn can create their rules here and ask their users to abide by them and enforce them as they wish.

In this case MS is not being unfair. They laid the rules out ahead of time. This user broke the rules and caused a severe disruption.
It seems pretty cut and dried to me.
I hope you realise that as soon as a website becomes a commercial paid for service it becomes liable for all the anti-discrimination legislation in every country it is accessible from... free to use forums are a different matter.. there any rules made can be 100% at the discretion of the owners of the site.. once you start taking money then various laws regarding use and access to the service and any discriminatory policies contained within rules can be challenged under the laws of whatever country either the site is based in.. or the complainant is from.

My previous post still stands.. M$ screwed up and have realised their rules are discriminatory... whether by accident or design they have learned another lesson about the world. Allowing people the option to say things about themselves is one thing.,. censoring them for expressing a preference which is legal to express is discrimination not a simple matter of rule breaking. The "no sexual content" means just that.. saying "oh.. I happen to be a lesbian/by/gay/trans" is not illegal and breaks no rules. If you are so bigoted and backward thinking that such statements offend you I suggest you either get an education rapidly, or rethink what religion you claim to belong to.. because you are the dinosaur.. it's the 21st century not the middle ages (though some countries are returning to them it seems). The world has changed beyond recognition.. while in practice discrimination through bigotry and hate of difference still hides behind religion and mob hysteria.. it is another thing entirely for a large company to use such lame excuses to discriminate against anyone. A few people complained they didn't like the word lesbian on a profile.. guess what.. get over it.. there are far worse things on XBL than the word lesbian.. or do you not have ears. I spent 3 minutes on there.. and that was enough for me. I don't want to hear foul mouthed homophobic racist kids screaming abuse at everybody.. no thanks. It's about playing games.. not being as offensive as possible to everybody.


Microsoft did note that their XBL policy bars "the expression of relationship preference in Gamertag profiles and tags, whether that's heterosexual or other."

MS attempted to avoid all discrimination. The person here blatantly ignored the rules. Any discrimination they "suffered" was a result of them breaking the T&Cs of the XBL account. MS are fully within their rights to ban them. The user accepted a legal agreement by using the XBL account. Banning is what the T&Cs say will happen.

It's silly minoritys, which it seems you buy into, that made it discriminatory. If someone was banned for being hetrosexual, no-one would care. If some lesbian gets banned, OMFG!!!!!! MS IS DISCRIMINATORY!!!! SUE THE BASTARDS!!!!!1!

Get a life.

Oh, it isn't homophobic. Most people you find don't actually care what you get up to. We just don't want it shoved down our throats. Jehovahs Witnesses and "gays". Who cares what you get up to in your private time. XBL is for playing games.

Quote:
It's about playing games.. not being as offensive as possible to everybody.
Exactly. I don't want to listen to foul mouthed kids screaming abuse at me over their sexuality. I want to play a fking game.

865.7.2009 4:26

Originally posted by ThePastor:

Why do you call me a bigot, insult or attack my "religion" which you don't even know what it is and then insult me as a "dinosaur" or from the "middle ages"?
A) I have never been, nor will I ever be a bigot of any kind and my words and deeds express this entirely.
B) You have no clue what my religion is or isn't so have no basis for criticism.
C) I am a very enlightened, modern man who understands the intricacies of running a large online space. I have a great amount of experience doing it. I'm not some middle aged bumkin pulling crap out of my ass.

I've never insulted you or your opinions. I have no idea why you have reacted in this way and I demand an apology.

If you cannot debate an issue intelligently and without insults and attacks then maybe you should take a day or two off.
It's varnull. :P Slight note, if you've really had experience "running a large online space", then you'd know that:

A) Demanding an apology is useless

B) Some people will react badly just because they can without any aggravation neccessary.



Note about the original article which most of you seem to have missed, the person broke a rule in the XBL EULA. They deserve to get kicked off for that.

But, as always, it's only sexist if they're male, it's only racist if they're white and it's only discriminatory if you're the one who got kicked for shoving your views down someone elses throat. Same reason a company will put a female with no qualifications onto a board is the same reason MSFT is apologising.

They may be right, the person may have violated the license agreements, they may have done everything correct according to a court of law, but they'd still get sued and lose because the "minority" can claim discrimination and people will still follow them. One of the german people put it well, the masses are stupid. :P And played oh so easily.

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