AfterDawn: Tech news

Apple: Psystar destroyed evidence

Written by James Delahunty (Google+) @ 16 Aug 2009 22:48 User comments (17)

Apple: Psystar destroyed evidence In a letter brief filed in the ongoing court battle between Apple and the "Mac clone maker" Psystar, Apple has accused Psystar of destroying valuable evidence. Psystar sells what it calls "Open Computers", and gives an option to have Mac OS X Leopard pre-installed on a new system. Apple guards its operating system software for use with its computers only, and it sued Psystar, alleging that it breached the DMCA and the Max OS X license.
Apple claims that in order for Psystar's systems to have been made Mac-compatible, Psystar had to circumvent technical elements of the software that prevents its unauthorized use. The company accused Psystar of improperly modifying or reverse engineering its software to enable it to run on these unauthorized systems - Psystar's "Open Computers".

"Defendant, Psystar Corporation, has destroyed relevant evidence that it was legally required to preserve. Specifically, Psystar has overwritten -- i.e., erased -- infringing versions of the software code used on computers sold to its customers," the letter reads. Apple says that Psystar has erased prior versions of its software. This discovery was made when the company deposed Rodolfo Pedraza, CEO of Psystar, in order to discover how the company was circumventing the "technological protection measures".

The destruction of evidence that has been sought by an opposing party in a legal dispute - called "spoliation" - is held in very low regards by the courts. If its true, then things will become a lot harder for Psystar.

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17 user comments

117.8.2009 1:02

how does apple know they destroyed evidence, its simple they don't.

217.8.2009 1:34

I wish Apple would just open up to other computer makers, I like variety. Then again I'm only saying this because their computers are too expensive... My iMac two years ago cost me $1900. It was fine then, I still love it, I just hate how I can't upgrade it... It's got the 3Gbs of ram, 2.16GHz Core 2 Duo and a ATI Radeon 1600x 128Mb graphics card which is fine I guess for everyday use and converting things and whatnot but if I ever wanna play recent games, I'mma have build me a hole 'nother computer.

Probably karma or something smacking me in the face for spending that much on a computer when it could'a gone somewhere else... That first car is gonna have to wait a little while longer or something lol

317.8.2009 1:37

Originally posted by DXR88:
how does apple know they destroyed evidence, its simple they don't.


"This discovery was made when the company deposed Rodolfo Pedraza"

They apparently got information from him during his deposition that indicated this.

417.8.2009 2:12

Quote:
Originally posted by DXR88:
how does apple know they destroyed evidence, its simple they don't.


"This discovery was made when the company deposed Rodolfo Pedraza"

They apparently got information from him during his deposition that indicated this.
if they have no solid evidence, they have nothing. i would like to see MS sue apple for using a tool called boot camp. same thing apples doing

517.8.2009 2:49

M$ jut figures it is another Windows sale! Apple looses the hardware sale but gains a software sale they want BOTH! How does this differ from how current PC's are made? IBM made the original BIOS & everyone else reverse engineered it ! same sh!t!

617.8.2009 3:04

Quote:

Originaly posted by DXR88
i would like to see MS sue apple for using a tool called boot camp. same thing apples doing



Not the same thing Boot Camp is an emulator that runs on a mac, sure it allows you to run windows, which you need to purchase legally (I've never used boot camp, only know about it), the bottom line the agreement with MickySlob is you purchased a license of Windows is that you won't reverse engineer the OS and simply use it. MS doesn't care if you are running on an intel, amd, or mac, you bought a license to use windows. While the stuff Pystar did is completely different. Welcome to the "You are locked into Apple's rules....". For me this is one of the biggest differences between the Mac and PCs. Too bad you think Apple would of leaned... The Apple IIe was probably the most open and modified systems of all times. Why Apple ever since the first Macintosh had been extremely closed and locked down by Apple...? Just my $0.02.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 17 Aug 2009 @ 3:12

717.8.2009 5:16

Quote:
Quote:

Originaly posted by DXR88
i would like to see MS sue apple for using a tool called boot camp. same thing apples doing



Not the same thing Boot Camp is an emulator that runs on a mac, sure it allows you to run windows, which you need to purchase legally (I've never used boot camp, only know about it), the bottom line the agreement with MickySlob is you purchased a license of Windows is that you won't reverse engineer the OS and simply use it. MS doesn't care if you are running on an intel, amd, or mac, you bought a license to use windows. While the stuff Pystar did is completely different. Welcome to the "You are locked into Apple's rules....". For me this is one of the biggest differences between the Mac and PCs. Too bad you think Apple would of leaned... The Apple IIe was probably the most open and modified systems of all times. Why Apple ever since the first Macintosh had been extremely closed and locked down by Apple...? Just my $0.02.

Not an EMULATOR...it's just a special bootloader that allows booting to a Windows OS and has Windows drivers for the Mac hardware. Linux for Macs includes that special bootloader for booting Linux on a Mac...Apple just had to make a Windows one themselves since, of course, M$ wasn't going to.

817.8.2009 5:47

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by DXR88:
how does apple know they destroyed evidence, its simple they don't.


"This discovery was made when the company deposed Rodolfo Pedraza"

They apparently got information from him during his deposition that indicated this.
if they have no solid evidence, they have nothing. i would like to see MS sue apple for using a tool called boot camp. same thing apples doing

It's not the same thing at all. The problem here is that Psystar is ALTERING MAC OS X (M$ doesn't allow PC makers to alter any of the non-optional components of Windows either) and selling it. Apple would have a very difficult time trying to go after end users who have put Mac OS X on their PCs themselves, but they are SELLING hacked commercial software, which ANY software developer would sue someone for doing.

The main part of the EULAs most developers have that can be well-argued against is that END USERS are not allowed to alter the software. If you own that copy of the software, you should have the right to do whatever you want with it on your own system (though components of the software that communicate w/ other systems or unlocking features built-in and not paid for would be off limits too) as long as you don't distribute it to anyone else. Nor can you legally provide a patch to others to alter their copies, but instructions on how to alter others' copies might be arguably OK.

If Psystar somehow ends up winning this lawsuit, you'll likely end up seeing some major s*** go down in the software industry as that precedent could end up saying that it's OK for ANYONE to sell hacked copies of ANYONE ELSE's software.

917.8.2009 5:59

"Apple says that Psystar has erased prior versions of its software"
...So they still have the current version, just not all of the older versions? Is that even a complaint? Heck, if apple emailed them and told them that the software was not legal, then the email probably also requested that they remove any copies of this software ASAP.

Once again, apple shows themselves to be short-sighted DRM zombies.

What if microsoft sued everyone that made a PC capable of running Windows? Simple: they would have almost no market share, much like apple has almost no market share. Windows and MacOS would be "specialty" operating systems (assuming they both still existed), and Linux would rule the world.

Of course, Apple's business plan seems to be to sell overpriced, outdated hardware...so they cripple their operating system to only run on said junk hardware.

I hope that Psystar counter-sues the seeds out of Apple.

1017.8.2009 8:03

Originally posted by KillerBug:
Once again, apple shows themselves to be short-sighted DRM zombies.

Sounds like something a paranoid, anti-business, tech-hippie, everything-I-want-should-be-free, Linux RuLeZ zombie would say! ;-)

1117.8.2009 8:47

I am still trying to figure out why you need a license to build a clone with hardware you bought and buy the OS for it and sell it as a whole package........

1217.8.2009 10:36

Originally posted by ZippyDSM:
I am still trying to figure out why you need a license to build a clone with hardware you bought and buy the OS for it and sell it as a whole package........
What is so difficult for people to see Pystar is taking software owned and developed by someone else and reselling. If you have no problem with that or don't follow the logic. Go to work this week, put in your hours and let me alter your name on your check to mine.

Doesn't matter what company, why do people see Apple, Microsoft, or another big company and assume they are doing something wrong for protecting what is theirs? Disagree, we can work out signing you pay check over to me.

1317.8.2009 14:43
H08
Inactive

For Everyone out there that is posting comments like "MS should sue apple cuz Macs Run Windows", I would like to point out That Microsoft Makes Money From Its SOFTWARE! Microsoft does not make computers, where as Apple although makes software, it makes its money from its Hardware!

So it would be a very poor buisness choice to block Windows from Macs. While It Would Be A Poor Buisness Choice for Apple to allow
Mac OSX on PC's. What Would You Buy? A $2000 Apple Mac that you know your getting ripped off on. or a $200 Emachines that could run the same thing?

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 17 Aug 2009 @ 14:53

1417.8.2009 14:47

Quote:
Originally posted by ZippyDSM:
I am still trying to figure out why you need a license to build a clone with hardware you bought and buy the OS for it and sell it as a whole package........
What is so difficult for people to see Pystar is taking software owned and developed by someone else and reselling. If you have no problem with that or don't follow the logic. Go to work this week, put in your hours and let me alter your name on your check to mine.

Doesn't matter what company, why do people see Apple, Microsoft, or another big company and assume they are doing something wrong for protecting what is theirs? Disagree, we can work out signing you pay check over to me.
Nup i don't follow the logic even when you explain it..lol..by your count that would make pc makers & general joe public who build their own pc's pirates ?,Apple haven't lost they have been paid for the OS,more than likely pystar loose money on the OS but make up for it with the sale of the hardware,the "REAL" issue is Apple now have competition from no doubt a cheaper pc that runs their software,that's the thing about competition it affects the profit margins.

1517.8.2009 16:39

Originally posted by H08:
For Everyone out there that is posting comments like "MS should sue apple cuz Macs Run Windows", I would like to point out That Microsoft Makes Money From Its SOFTWARE! Microsoft does not make computers, where as Apple although makes software, it makes its money from its Hardware!

So it would be a very poor buisness choice to block Windows from Macs. While It Would Be A Poor Buisness Choice for Apple to allow
Mac OSX on PC's. What Would You Buy? A $2000 Apple Mac that you know your getting ripped off on. or a $200 Emachines that could run the same thing?
Not to mention the PR nightmare if others were able to distribute Mac clones and owners of them being denied support by Apple since they can't even guarantee ANYTHING should be working on whatever PC hardware they have. Even if Apple didn't fight other companies installing Mac OS X on PC hardware, they would be seen by many as evil for not supporting those Mac OS X owners (and 'breaking their machines' w/ most OS updates). Most of the people whining about this seem to be the elitist "everyone should just run Linux" dittoheads who dismiss criticisms of its shortcomings. It really doesn't matter what happens...they will still find something to b**ch about.

1617.8.2009 17:16

Quote:
Originally posted by H08:
For Everyone out there that is posting comments like "MS should sue apple cuz Macs Run Windows", I would like to point out That Microsoft Makes Money From Its SOFTWARE! Microsoft does not make computers, where as Apple although makes software, it makes its money from its Hardware!

So it would be a very poor buisness choice to block Windows from Macs. While It Would Be A Poor Buisness Choice for Apple to allow
Mac OSX on PC's. What Would You Buy? A $2000 Apple Mac that you know your getting ripped off on. or a $200 Emachines that could run the same thing?
Not to mention the PR nightmare if others were able to distribute Mac clones and owners of them being denied support by Apple since they can't even guarantee ANYTHING should be working on whatever PC hardware they have. Even if Apple didn't fight other companies installing Mac OS X on PC hardware, they would be seen by many as evil for not supporting those Mac OS X owners (and 'breaking their machines' w/ most OS updates). Most of the people whining about this seem to be the elitist "everyone should just run Linux" dittoheads who dismiss criticisms of its shortcomings. It really doesn't matter what happens...they will still find something to b**ch about.
thats why they have a news thread so you can bitch about it.
OS-X is based off of unix,and Darwin is nix distribution based on the same core OS-X runs.

i don't have an orgasm every time Linux pops up, it has its issues, and windows has its own. If someone managed to create a boot strap to boot MAC OS on PC they would bitch about it. Apple is running out of Bitching rights it was understandable when the G-series was around they had to initialize there hardware by bundling they own software with it.

they no longer make there own hardware like you state. unless you consider i white case with an apple on the side of it hardware and the one button mouse. they where hitting the green pretty hard that day huh.

if anything there a system builder like alienware

1720.8.2009 10:46

Now I've been educated and a little concerned as I have in the past used data recovery programs and it would seem they no longer work.(information deleted???)

What are the police etc. going to do now if they are no longer able to retrieve deleted files??

Overwritten does not mean unrecoverable there are ways and means.

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