AfterDawn: Tech news

Internet will make college irrelevant, says Bill Gates

Written by Andre Yoskowitz (Google+) @ 09 Aug 2010 23:18 User comments (41)

Internet will make college irrelevant, says Bill Gates Bill Gates, one of the richest men in the world after he co-founded Microsoft in the 70s, has made some interesting comments today in relation to the college experience.
Gates says that soon college educations will be irrelevant, thanks to the Internet.

"The self-motivated learner will be on the web. And there will be far less place-based [college] things...College -- except for the parties -- needs to be less place based," says Gates.

Additionally, he says traditional college studies will soon be "five times less important than it is today."

It is notable to remember that Gates dropped out of Harvard University to found the company that has since become the largest tech company in the world.

Gates was quick to note that he feels K-12 education is very important, especially charter school programs that immerse the children in learning: "If you want to take intercity fifth grade kids and get them to think 'Hey learning is fun...I do that with other kids.' you need to have at least 80 percent of their waking hours devoted to your thing or otherwise you lose -- and these charter schools do that."

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41 user comments

19.8.2010 23:29

Soon we will all have 4G hotspots in our heads, and learning will become redundant.

29.8.2010 23:32

...and the Mind Police will truly takeover.

On another note, self motivation is hard to come by for people who don't already have a habit of good things. Just telling them to go to school on the computer doesn't sound very motivating, but GOING somewhere does. Less distractions too.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 09 Aug 2010 @ 23:33

39.8.2010 23:38

oddly i actually agree with gates. college is overrated, and not everyone can afford college. thus alot of intelligent people don't get shiny plaques and without the shine your just another nobody in the eye's of the employer.

if somebody was just willing to give someone the chance to prove themselves, there would be no need for a degree in whatever field it is.

it was like my father always said, it takes money to make money.

49.8.2010 23:42

For those of you who already thought that traditional college education has or already become unnecessary (depending on major) thanks to the internet say, "Ai"!

To bad for us/those who realized this way to late, but still need those 4 year degrees b/c companies require them. However the corporate institutions will probably conspire with the Universities to make sure those who want to enter into a specific career go to a 4 year school. Or maybe those online schools such as University of Phoenix will become more socially acceptable in he near future, once the education bubble bursts (google "education bubble).

For those who don't have self motivation should take a self motivation class. ;)

510.8.2010 0:06

I totally agree with Gates. Going to college was the only advice our parents had to give us, and they're parents as well. This is outdated advice to give a child these days.

It is a rare occasion to see a college actually grad working in they're field of study. Even worse, the bill for the schooling will be following these poor kids around for the next 10-20 years. Unless your child is going into a field that actually makes any money, (lawyer, doctor, dentist, etc.) it is not likely that they will benefit from they're schooling financially.

These days, any real wealth will indeed be made online.... Happens every day.

610.8.2010 0:45

Originally posted by KillerBug:
Soon we will all have 4G hotspots in our heads, and learning will become redundant.
You've been watching to much of The matrix trilogy :p to be honest i like the idea of download directly to my brain :D

710.8.2010 1:22

well people always say schooling is inportant.I've got a brother that dropped out of school when he was 16.a few years later he did a tafe course.a 3month course on electronics.Now hes 29 and owns his own successful electric manufacting business.the problem is everyone learns differently.A certificate might show you can do something but actions speak louder than words or paper in this case.


custom built gaming pc from early 2010,ps2 with 15 games all original,ps3 500gbs with 5 games all original,yamaha amp and 5.1channel surround sound speakers,46inch sony lcd smart tv.

810.8.2010 2:55

Gates is correct - all exams are just short term memory tests

910.8.2010 3:28

I agree. A few years ago when I was still in high school they were offering an early-morning college course on Java programming. I had already taught myself Java using my good friend, Google, so I figured I might as well take the course for some easy resume material. There were actually mistakes in the course material that even a beginner could notice. The internet has its fair share of misinformation too, but ~$20/month sure beats the several thousand dollars a year you'd pay going to college. And the internet lets you do other stuff too!

1010.8.2010 4:25

Like billy said, college is all about getting drunk, stoned, layed, and then repeating this every day. Such an environment is terrible for learning.

1110.8.2010 9:33

Great prediction from a college drop out who had daddy's money to fall back on.

1210.8.2010 9:35

Originally posted by nonoitall:
I agree. A few years ago when I was still in high school they were offering an early-morning college course on Java programming. I had already taught myself Java using my good friend, Google, so I figured I might as well take the course for some easy resume material. There were actually mistakes in the course material that even a beginner could notice. The internet has its fair share of misinformation too, but ~$20/month sure beats the several thousand dollars a year you'd pay going to college. And the internet lets you do other stuff too!
Where did you go?

The Podunk Community College?

1310.8.2010 12:50

I spent $20,000 into college 10 years ago, and safe to say it really hasn't done much for me; people can say that I haven't done much with it, but situations have a tendency to just make itself go from good to bad, to suck-ass. My education I spent $ on felt wasted; I went to lean IT and when I got out I realized I learned nothing. All my learning experience came in the field, and in the end every dime I spent at college was for naught; its actually to the point I don't even both putting it on my resume because it taught us nothing but how to have parties and drink. I did attend my classes, I did graduate with high grades, but what they taught back when I went was crap. Learning "How to move a mouse" in a college course is BULLSHIT, and I sorry if you dunno how to move a mouse by the time you done high school, then maybe you should have stuck in high school.

1410.8.2010 14:16

I would disagree with Gates as much as he has been wrong a few times in the past. "Who would ever need more than 640Kb in a computer?" How would a doctor practice medicine? And the "motivated learner" I would consider far and few between. While i'll be the first to agree college and universities are way over priced. While I think there are a good number of people that need regiment and structure in order to learn and motivate them.

1510.8.2010 14:27

School was boring back in the day and still is. If you look at it, kids these days are more concerned about getting laid or having relationships than care about what the heck they are supposed to be learning. School wasn't fun or interesting until I got to college, because 1: I had to pay for it, 2: I choose what I was going to learn and invest into. Other than that, college is overrated.

College tuition seems to always go up every year, you rarely if at all hear about the prices going down, a kid without a HS diploma or college education can make the same amount as you or get a better job than you if they have the on the job experience training since you won't have any while you are busy getting that education. And in todays society, it's not what you know, it's either who you know or who you blow.

1610.8.2010 14:42
lissenup2
Inactive

Dumb people for believing Gates or agreeing with him and dumb Bill Gates for saying that.

First, he dropped out of Harvard simply because he was able to steal DOS and sell it off without legal consequence.

Second, life is different now. 6.5 billion people on this planet compared to 3.7 back in 1970 and it's things like GOING TO COLLEGE that distinguishes one sheople from another.

Regardless of what all the morons that agree with Gates say/think, college will be a necessity for a long long long long time and will continuously show employers that you can "follow through" with something. Besides..............anybody that thinks they can learn medical without direct college intervention is destined to be a cadaver themselves.

1710.8.2010 15:01

I think Bill and the rest of you are out of touch. College is a litmus test for employers. Not that it is accurate or fair but that is the way it is. It is an easy way to eliminate 90% of the applicants so you can carefully pick through the last 10%. I can't get a government job because I did not serve in the military, I am not a minority and I got less than a 3.0 for my degree. I have taken many college courses after that and I have close to a 4.0 but until I get a degree those do not count.

For those looking for a job without a career track record you college record is all that you have. Those that got good grades at good schools get the good jobs. Those that got less than stellar grades at OK schools don't get a good job and are lucky to get any job.

I agree with the relevance of a college education but Bill NEVER interviewed for a job in his life.

1810.8.2010 15:09

Originally posted by robertmro:
Great prediction from a college drop out who had daddy's money to fall back on.
Hmmm, no, his parents might have gave him an edge, but the "inclination to learn" is in Bill Gates. There's an interesting background story on Gates in Gladwell's Outlier, it's a quite good read.

On the topic, I tend to agree with Gates too. This trend, self learning, didn't take off because the massive amount of information was not available back then. There are tons of books, but it's very exhausting to hunt the knowledge you inclined to learn. Right now? I just need to search.... Just few minutes ago I was intrigued what "without recourse" means. In my college days (the internet is still fairly young), I couldn't get the answer right away and more importantly, I got discouraged since finding answers were too damn exhausting (hey, I got to work part time, term papers, group projects, the last freaking thing on my mind will be "need to find out what without recourse means.")

Anyway, the internet makes learning so much faster, I'm actually inclined to look up the stuff that bothers me. The other day I looked up what SLI means (people were talking about video cards).

Trust me, if I had the information gateway back in my High School years, I think I don't need college for the technical classes. All you need is Language Arts (English/Literature) because that's one subject teaches you how to read and communicate. All of the other subjects depend on your personality really. Some people like scientific stuff, so they read those... Some people like computer, so they search computer related materials.

1910.8.2010 15:43

How long before the internet makes Gates irrelevant?

2010.8.2010 16:40

Maybe but it's does matter where you go.

If you had someone come in with a cert from the internet school of dickheads, or another from oxford.

or pretty much going to go for the oxford guy.

Sure, sure.... the net school will be all hip and cheap but something just doesn't sound right about it.

2110.8.2010 19:45

For all the people who say college is worthless you are an idiot. I have a degree in chemistry and I doubt any old person could walk in off the street and step into my research job and learn on the fly with high school chem. Not to mention that I only just graduated so its an entry level position. Don't say college is a waist because you chose an area of study a trained chimp can do. But I do think the internet is an amazing supplement to the learning process. More so the ability to store data in a network and have it made accessible instantly. To the counter though i know there are people who do not have college education and are successful. Also you may not of gone to a university but those IT certification courses or culinary classes or any of those 2 year "programs"... Guess what, its the SAME THING AS COLLEGE. Just cheaper and shorter lol.

2210.8.2010 21:25

Im half and half here yes uni/college mainly teaches you to drink etc but it does help employers find realistic people who may know what they are talking about to a degree i personally own a I.T business in town im on the best in town and its hard for me to find anyone to employe that actually knows what they are on about or can keep to my companies high standards ive even tried to train people to keep up to my standards and work pace and failed

they do help but the thing is for people like me with companies that go way beyond what is possible for others its just useless
like none of them knew how to fix a motherboard without replacing it that is really simple and amazed its not taught to them and to answer questions as to how i come across such knowledge i just studied my self over the net learning everything about electronic circuits etc and with some trial and error managed to come up with way to make broken electronics go again and i didnt even finish high school (left school to start my company and at the age of 18 already have a fleet of cars and employes)

2311.8.2010 0:28
WierdName
Inactive

There's a couple problems here. First, not everyone has the drive to learn. Some people need a grade to take learning seriously. Second, the 'internet' is far from reliable. An actual accredited school is far more likely to have things right as opposed to an article written by Billy Joe Bob. Third, a degree is a guaranty (assuming there wasn't cheating) that the student is at least at x level of knowledge. Following a degree gives structure for what the student needs to know.
Yes, college is quite overpriced and deans arguably get paid far to much. That raises student fees which are already high because of poor financial management. College does have its problems but saying it's irrelevant doesn't make sense.

2412.8.2010 2:31

you people do realize that Medical Science and Chemistry where once practiced by Evil doers and sinners of the period, correct? and that the trade of both where done in secret and in inhuman conditions? they where also done by some of the most well respected entrepreneurs and self motivated individuals of there time.

Collage is a source of Controlled Knowledge, The internet Is the source of all information.

and like someone said collage degrees filter out people, which is not right. knowledge is what matters not a bloody piece of paper. i wonder sometimes i do, if this planet got any more ass backwards, if it would spin counter clock wise.


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2512.8.2010 2:47
lissenup2
Inactive

Originally posted by DXR88:
you people do realize that Medical Science and Chemistry where once practiced by Evil doers and sinners of the period, correct? and that the trade of both where done in secret and in inhuman conditions? they where also done by some of the most well respected entrepreneurs and self motivated individuals of there time.

Collage is a source of Controlled Knowledge, The internet Is the source of all information.

and like someone said collage degrees filter out people, which is not right. knowledge is what matters not a bloody piece of paper. i wonder sometimes i do, if this planet got any more ass backwards, if it would spin counter clock wise.
It must be spinning backwards already when people use "where" when they meant to use "were" and spell college "collage".

Yahoo did a piece a week or so ago on common mis-uses of terms, generally in emails, but in most writing. Afterdawn people really need to read that.

Differences between They're, their and there. Between then and than, etc.

I laugh in sorrow thinking these 'misspellers' out there are beating me out of a good job........clearly this world is spinning backwards.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 12 Aug 2010 @ 2:48

2612.8.2010 4:29

Originally posted by lissenup2:
Dumb people for believing Gates or agreeing with him and dumb Bill Gates for saying that.

First, he dropped out of Harvard simply because he was able to steal DOS and sell it off without legal consequence.

Did you just try to validate your claim that college is essential for success by stating that one of the richest men on earth is a college drop-out?

2712.8.2010 6:16

Originally posted by fragrantvagrant:
Gates is correct - all exams are just short term memory tests
EXACTLTY!!!!!!!

2812.8.2010 6:21

Originally posted by SomeBozo:
I would disagree with Gates as much as he has been wrong a few times in the past. "Who would ever need more than 640Kb in a computer?" How would a doctor practice medicine? And the "motivated learner" I would consider far and few between. While i'll be the first to agree college and universities are way over priced. While I think there are a good number of people that need regiment and structure in order to learn and motivate them.
What about someone like me who has an extremely fast learning ability who wasted half his youth going over crap i already knew when i couldve been plotting evil world conquering schemes?

2912.8.2010 7:04

if someone understands illness and the effects of medication and how to cure shouldnt matter if they are a qualified doctor or not.


custom built gaming pc from early 2010,ps2 with 15 games all original,ps3 500gbs with 5 games all original,yamaha amp and 5.1channel surround sound speakers,46inch sony lcd smart tv.

3012.8.2010 9:21

See? That's exactly my point... In school, I never gotten proper grammar/spelling lessons, either because fellow students/teachers/assistants/ don't know or don't care. On the net? I learned a great deal of lessons just by posting! I thank those grammar/spelling police :)

Quote:

Originally posted by DXR88:

and like someone said collage degrees filter out people, which is not right. knowledge is what matters not a bloody piece of paper. i wonder sometimes i do, if this planet got any more ass backwards, if it would spin counter clock wise.

I agree... A lot of smart/intelligent/well qualified people don't have money to go to Ivy League schools. But yeah, the piece of paper from Ivy League school is a prestigious document.

As for labs, chemistry/biology/physics etc., I agree that you will need a physical laboratory to learn the real experience or test out the theories. However, schools will evolve in this information age, it can't stay the same... If you think about it, most text books are outdated so fast that it almost embarrassing to sell them on campus.

I won't say colleges will go away, but there will be changes, big ones, like eliminating useless/outdated/bloated courses.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 12 Aug 2010 @ 9:23

Peace!

3112.8.2010 14:56

Originally posted by lissenup2:
Originally posted by DXR88:
you people do realize that Medical Science and Chemistry where once practiced by Evil doers and sinners of the period, correct? and that the trade of both where done in secret and in inhuman conditions? they where also done by some of the most well respected entrepreneurs and self motivated individuals of there time.

Collage is a source of Controlled Knowledge, The internet Is the source of all information.

and like someone said collage degrees filter out people, which is not right. knowledge is what matters not a bloody piece of paper. i wonder sometimes i do, if this planet got any more ass backwards, if it would spin counter clock wise.
It must be spinning backwards already when people use "where" when they meant to use "were" and spell college "collage".

Yahoo did a piece a week or so ago on common mis-uses of terms, generally in emails, but in most writing. Afterdawn people really need to read that.

Differences between They're, their and there. Between then and than, etc.

I laugh in sorrow thinking these 'misspellers' out there are beating me out of a good job........clearly this world is spinning backwards.
i could if i wanted to, but i don't. why bother the internet is not a formal place rather a public one. just be happy i don't use text speak, at the least i put my thoughts into words you can understand.

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3213.8.2010 2:33

spelling mistakes are everywhere.If i can understand something i don't mind if it has a few minor spelling mistakes.who honestly cares if they spell "their" or "there" its pronounced the same and if you read it out loud no one will noticed anyway.

Edit:whats annoys me is when a program says something stupid like (julien file name not correct).the program is in english and all the writing should be in english.I don't know what the word julien means im not french i didnt install the program to use french words.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 13 Aug 2010 @ 2:37

custom built gaming pc from early 2010,ps2 with 15 games all original,ps3 500gbs with 5 games all original,yamaha amp and 5.1channel surround sound speakers,46inch sony lcd smart tv.

3313.8.2010 3:18
WierdName
Inactive

Originally posted by xboxdvl2:
spelling mistakes are everywhere.If i can understand something i don't mind if it has a few minor spelling mistakes.who honestly cares if they spell "their" or "there" its pronounced the same and if you read it out loud no one will noticed anyway.

Edit:whats annoys me is when a program says something stupid like (julien file name not correct).the program is in english and all the writing should be in english.I don't know what the word julien means im not french i didnt install the program to use french words.
Well I for one mind. And many employers mind as well. Can you honestly say that seeing the wrong word doesn't ruin the flow of a sentence making you re-read it? Bottom line, it's not professional which is why it would cost one any kind of decent, professional job.
And misspellings don't bother you but "julien file name not correct" annoys you? If you knew what was meant by "julien" would you have even understood the message anyways? By the way, I think it's talking about a string type within the program (as in it's technical jargon and not just a French word).

Doesnt expecting the unexpected make the unexpected expected and therefore mean youre expecting the expected which was the unexpected until you expected it?
"Opinions are immunities to being told were wrong." - Relient K

3413.8.2010 3:36

Originally posted by SoulGLOW:
Originally posted by SomeBozo:
I would disagree with Gates as much as he has been wrong a few times in the past. "Who would ever need more than 640Kb in a computer?" How would a doctor practice medicine? And the "motivated learner" I would consider far and few between. While i'll be the first to agree college and universities are way over priced. While I think there are a good number of people that need regiment and structure in order to learn and motivate them.
What about someone like me who has an extremely fast learning ability who wasted half his youth going over crap i already knew when i couldve been plotting evil world conquering schemes?
I'm half tempted to ask if you so fast and bright why do you need someone else to validate your point, but won't ;)

Sure there will be exceptions but I would think they will be much less then the norm. People are event driven and need something to push them along, no matter how bright you are. I knew a few people that worked at microsoft who have no degree, or at least when i first started working there. Back then BBS were popular and some people wrote and developed code and libraries and put them on the BBS forums. My friends received visitors saying they from Microsoft and would be interested in having them interview for position at microsoft. Or like the dude on my last team that learned SQL Server when he was 8 years old, finished high school and started working for Microsoft at 18 he knew SQL forwards and back and could get stuff to run faster than anyone else could for complex queries. Do people or can people learn without going to school, sure, but my point was this is probably not the norm. I might suggest many even on this website are not the norm either, the norm for most college or other young people needing to learn most likely will not be on a site like this discussing topics like this...

3513.8.2010 4:16

I knew a guy in highschool that couldnt do maths or spell properly.the schools computer computer maintenance guy took him aside cause he saw the guy working on a computer and offered him training and part time work involving computers.the guys now a computer programmer.learning is important at an early age but once you get to a certain age and know all the basic skills (ect maths,english,basic science,logic) the need for learning gets less.I've known people that are above average intelligence complete school at 16 or 17 including their final exams.I've seen a dopey guy thats not well educated find a blocked fuel injecter in my mums old car.thats after taking the car to 5 different well known mechanics that all said the car doesn't have a problem.


custom built gaming pc from early 2010,ps2 with 15 games all original,ps3 500gbs with 5 games all original,yamaha amp and 5.1channel surround sound speakers,46inch sony lcd smart tv.

3613.8.2010 10:11

It's pretty much like the show Heroes without the special powers. Trust me, everyone of us is good at something, just that some of us have "better" skills than other, like Skylar :)

School is still a fundamental medium to unlock our potential (reading/writing/arithmetic/school lunch endurance/bullying etc.) Then to polish our potential, we have to to colleges/universities. Some people are natural, even they party all day long and they can control their powers. Some people are just slow, never unlock anything... Well, it used to be that way, until we have the internet :) Now, with the vast knowledge at your fingertips, you can polish your skills pretty much anonymously :) Of course, with your powers hidden, it's pretty hard to show off (unlike those Ivy League men/women, they are certified superheroes, super villains, or plain super pricks with money). However, once you do, through faith or luck, you're the hero :)

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 13 Aug 2010 @ 10:12

Peace!

3713.8.2010 12:58

Originally posted by Gnawnivek:
It's pretty much like the show Heroes without the special powers. Trust me, everyone of us is good at something, just that some of us have "better" skills than other, like Skylar :)

School is still a fundamental medium to unlock our potential (reading/writing/arithmetic/school lunch endurance/bullying etc.) Then to polish our potential, we have to to colleges/universities. Some people are natural, even they party all day long and they can control their powers. Some people are just slow, never unlock anything... Well, it used to be that way, until we have the internet :) Now, with the vast knowledge at your fingertips, you can polish your skills pretty much anonymously :) Of course, with your powers hidden, it's pretty hard to show off (unlike those Ivy League men/women, they are certified superheroes, super villains, or plain super pricks with money). However, once you do, through faith or luck, you're the hero :)
i do hope there was a point to all that....working to help the special people understand that in everyone there's a super hero eh.

oh, please don't tell the kid with down syndrome he can fly if he wears a red cape, I'm betting that wouldn't go over to well.

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3815.8.2010 5:06

Originally posted by SomeBozo:
Originally posted by SoulGLOW:
Originally posted by SomeBozo:
I would disagree with Gates as much as he has been wrong a few times in the past. "Who would ever need more than 640Kb in a computer?" How would a doctor practice medicine? And the "motivated learner" I would consider far and few between. While i'll be the first to agree college and universities are way over priced. While I think there are a good number of people that need regiment and structure in order to learn and motivate them.
What about someone like me who has an extremely fast learning ability who wasted half his youth going over crap i already knew when i couldve been plotting evil world conquering schemes?
I'm half tempted to ask if you so fast and bright why do you need someone else to validate your point, but won't ;)

Sure there will be exceptions but I would think they will be much less then the norm. People are event driven and need something to push them along, no matter how bright you are. I knew a few people that worked at microsoft who have no degree, or at least when i first started working there. Back then BBS were popular and some people wrote and developed code and libraries and put them on the BBS forums. My friends received visitors saying they from Microsoft and would be interested in having them interview for position at microsoft. Or like the dude on my last team that learned SQL Server when he was 8 years old, finished high school and started working for Microsoft at 18 he knew SQL forwards and back and could get stuff to run faster than anyone else could for complex queries. Do people or can people learn without going to school, sure, but my point was this is probably not the norm. I might suggest many even on this website are not the norm either, the norm for most college or other young people needing to learn most likely will not be on a site like this discussing topics like this...


Hey!! you forgot to validate my point!!

3915.8.2010 7:10

Originally posted by xboxdvl2:
spelling mistakes are everywhere.If i can understand something i don't mind if it has a few minor spelling mistakes.who honestly cares if they spell "their" or "there" its pronounced the same and if you read it out loud no one will noticed anyway.

Edit:whats annoys me is when a program says something stupid like (julien file name not correct).the program is in english and all the writing should be in english.I don't know what the word julien means im not french i didnt install the program to use french words.
Their and there aren't spelling mistakes it would be grammar.

See their would be used like : their box is here.

There would be used like this: there is an item here.

You'll probably find Julien isn't French but Latin.

4021.8.2010 3:40

I would think some things you would need proper schooling, Medical, Chemistry, Physics especially anything to do with Nuclear, other than that you could learn just as well if not better than O.J.T. On the Job Training, if only companies and organizations would let you.

4119.10.2010 10:03
plainsinger
Unverified new user

There have always been self-starters, outsiders, and lonely geniuses who were able to do very well without showing much respect for the mass of persons who learn better in an interpersonal and interactive college or university setting. Gates is one of those self-starters, as was Henry ("History is bunk") Ford. On a less exalted level, Larry King once spoke at a college commencement and told the graduating class that he had done just fine without graduating from a college. The bad manners of the successful are nothing new in the world.

Better models for Mr. Gates would be geniuses like Jefferson , Carnegie, Edison, and Rockefeller, who did great things on their own but also founded colleges and universities, understanding that learning is the common inheritance of humanity, and that most people learn vital things from working together with others, particularly those who have already studied a great deal. Those people, professors and researchers, are as vital to Mr. Gates and other self-regarding "geniuses" as they are to the rest of us. A little taste of humility might help Mr. Gates and his admirers to remember how much they owe to the learned men and women who have populated universities for centuries, compiled the dictionaries, discovered the formulae, and in general built up the mountain of knowledge and wisdom upon which all of us are standing.

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