AfterDawn: Tech news

Kinect sales are crushing Move sales, says Pachter

Written by Andre Yoskowitz (Google+) @ 10 Dec 2010 16:29 User comments (69)

Kinect sales are crushing Move sales, says Pachter Wedbush analyst Michael Pachter, one of the most well-known in the video game industry has said today that Microsoft's Kinect is crushing Sony's rival Move motion control system in regards to sales.
Sony says it has shipped 4.1 million units since launch, but it is unclear how many of those have translated to actual retail sales.

Microsoft, on the other hand, has confirmed 2.5 million sales in just under a month.

Pachter added:
"About one fifth of PS3 sales included bundles with Sony’s Move controller, suggesting a modest third month. About half of Xbox 360 sales included bundles with Microsoft’s Kinect peripheral, suggesting a strong first month. Xbox 360 Kinect console bundles outsold PS3 Move console bundles by more than 5:1."


The analyst also noted that he expects overall installed base for Move and Kinect to be 8 million by the end of the year and 25 million by the end of 2011.

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69 user comments

110.12.2010 17:08

move>>>>Kinect, not sony's fault people are ignorant.

210.12.2010 17:12

This is Sony's own fault. They short shipped moves in hopes of causing a frenzy, instead people just passed on it and bought Kinect instead. My own family tried in vain to get PS Move this shopping season and they found they were either sold out, or only one controller was available, or both controllers but no PSEye (camera). So they said screw it and bought the Kinect which all comes as one unit not in 15 separate boxes.

Sony should have shipped more complete Move packages (PSEye, and both controllers all in one box) they tried to make it the big must have of the year by short shipping it...but forgot people had an alternative to turn to when they couldn't find any Moves. Stupid marketing move (pun intended)

I hope they fired the guy that thought it would be brilliant to send out a million Move motion joystick controllers, but only a couple 1000 of the glowing ball controllers and even less PSEye's all needed to make the Move system work properly. M$ swooped in and stole their thunder by making sure they had adequate stock for the holiday season instead of playing games with consumers by making it intentionally hard to get.

The Move is vastly superior to the Kinect but if it's too hard to obtain people will look elsewhere.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 10 Dec 2010 @ 17:14


310.12.2010 17:30

This must be the only time that pachter is accurate....
however that kinect outsells move is all around the net.

IMO though, move will live longer and eventually will have a better per console ratio.

410.12.2010 17:49

jookycola, edit your sig to conform to forum specs ASAP.

510.12.2010 17:49

The Move is just a much better product. The Kinect has good technology and a great "idea" but is not ever going to be as accurate as the Move. The Move employs the same exact motion control technology they use for Hollywood movies. The glowing ball is followed by the camera to provide exact detailed movement. Just like how they motion capture movements of actors to add CGI action sequences to movies.

The Kinect just picks up movement period, not accurately either. Sony has the superior product but bet a little too much on that rep to push it's sales. In the end M$ had the better stocked shelves. When you have two rival technologies so close together you never give the rival the advantage. Sony did that by short shipping and allowing the Kinect to pound them. Why kill yourself looking from store to store at empty shelves of the PSMove when right next to it on another shelf are 1000's of Kinects just waiting to go home with you. Sony blew it.



610.12.2010 17:58

No disrespect ddp But I've used that signature for well over a year and you are the first ever moderator to say anything. I'm not a newbie member either I've been here since 2003. So this is news to me.
I can't find one single clearly marked link that tells me what is acceptable and what is not. I'd change it if i knew what the parameters were. Is this something new? why is it suddenly a problem today and has never been a problem in the nearly 2 years I've had this exact same sig?

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 10 Dec 2010 @ 18:04

710.12.2010 18:03

yours is 70,194 bytes.
2. An image-only signature should be less than 50kb in size, and be at most 500 pixels wide and 200 pixels tall.
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
just shows you didn't read the forum rules.

810.12.2010 18:10

I read them in 2003 man. Do remember everything you read in 2003? I'm clearly NOT giving you attitude so i don't think the attitude is necessary to get YOUR point across. I've had this sig for nearly 2 years and suddenly you come out of nowhere and tell me it's no acceptable. I simply asked you what is the proper compliance then.
And if it's such a problem why not make it a clickable easy to access link so people can see that CLEARLY when making a sig?

Just saying.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 10 Dec 2010 @ 18:10

910.12.2010 18:11

here man, no need to get in a riff with the lightning man:



This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 10 Dec 2010 @ 18:12

1010.12.2010 18:15

that is 41,228 bytes which meets the forum rule requirements.

1110.12.2010 18:18

No riff, all he needed to do was just state what he wanted and not the last unnecessary sentence of snotty comment.
And don't bother DVDBack, it was a dynamic signature that changes in real time with my PSN to display trophies earned. Editing it defeats it's purpose. But thanks for fixing it anyway, i appreciate the help.



1210.12.2010 18:55

kinect would have been cool if they left the processor in it and sold it for a higher price, instead MS takes it out makes it lag and advertises it like its the future or something. The move is way better but I am with all of you guys selling it as separate pieces was stupid. The move will end up having better games simply because the hardware is better. When the real games come out (not these shitty launch titles) everyone will see kinect is just an overpriced toy (similar to the wii) and the move actually moves gaming forward a little bit.



1310.12.2010 20:42

Originally posted by jookycola:
This is Sony's own fault. They short shipped moves in hopes of causing a frenzy, instead people just passed on it and bought Kinect instead. My own family tried in vain to get PS Move this shopping season and they found they were either sold out, or only one controller was available, or both controllers but no PSEye (camera). So they said screw it and bought the Kinect which all comes as one unit not in 15 separate boxes.

Sony should have shipped more complete Move packages (PSEye, and both controllers all in one box) they tried to make it the big must have of the year by short shipping it...but forgot people had an alternative to turn to when they couldn't find any Moves. Stupid marketing move (pun intended)

I hope they fired the guy that thought it would be brilliant to send out a million Move motion joystick controllers, but only a couple 1000 of the glowing ball controllers and even less PSEye's all needed to make the Move system work properly. M$ swooped in and stole their thunder by making sure they had adequate stock for the holiday season instead of playing games with consumers by making it intentionally hard to get.

The Move is vastly superior to the Kinect but if it's too hard to obtain people will look elsewhere.
Well sony shipped 4.1 million units, yet the kinect is "crushing" the move with 2.5 million sales, so I don't really see supply being the issue there.. Perhaps it's marketing as I've seen a ton more advertising for the kinect compared to the move.

1410.12.2010 23:11

They shipped 4.1 million...but obviously not even sets. my local Best Buy alone had tons and tons of the motion controllers (the controller for the Move with an analog joystick)but section with the Move controllers (the ones with the glowing ball) empty. And they had a total of 2 PSEye cameras. And not one complete all-in-one PSMove box.

So either Microsoft and Patcher are talking out of their asses. Or Sony is bragging about shipping 4.1 million separate un-balanced parts of the move....not 4.1 million "complete" Move systems.
I'd say it's more like they shipped:
3 million joystick move controllers
1 million motion ball controllers
.1 PSEye cameras.
If you don't have all 3 you don't have a complete Move System. So they should have sent 4.1 million complete matching sets.



1510.12.2010 23:11

Originally posted by SCorleone:
Well sony shipped 4.1 million units, yet the kinect is "crushing" the move with 2.5 million sales, so I don't really see supply being the issue there.. Perhaps it's marketing as I've seen a ton more advertising for the kinect compared to the move.
The issue is that Sony only shipped 4.1 million parts...that it is a system that needs at least two parts, but should really have three parts, even for one player. They only shipped demo stations to a handful of stores, and they didn't even bother to include the navigation controllers in these demo stations. AFAIK, they didn't ship a single nav controller to my city at all...I can't find them anyway...you have to buy that part from Amazon.

Yes, the move is better from a technical standpoint...but the PS3 is too; and that does not keep Sony marketing from screwing everything up.


1611.12.2010 6:54

Kinect is crap.

I've used it and it's slow real slow, and because the games are running a bit slower again you don't know if it's worked until things don't happen when you expect them to.

I haven't tried a move yet I'll probably just buy one already have a PS3.

The problem I find is that I already have most of the parts for the move I already have a camera and if I bought the pet game I'd have 2 cameras buying a full move system would be another camera, so having it separate does work out.

also allows people to just buy what they actually need rather than have extra items that can be re-sold or chucked.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 11 Dec 2010 @ 7:03

1711.12.2010 12:19

I really like Kinect, i got move too but it's silly a glowing controller and nothing new. Kinect allows you to control the Xbox without a controller as well.

1811.12.2010 12:28

Eh.

I can see Move developing with more games to come out with and new ideas.

Kinect.. I dunno. A couple of racing games, some fighting ones. FPS.. Not sure. I see Kinect dying off soon. You can do a lot more with a controller.

1911.12.2010 14:49

Yeah but Salsa that silly glowing ball makes the move accurate, something the Kinect is not. And this is the something new, it's the first time real time Hollywood style motion tracking has ever been used by the masses. The Kinect is nothing more than a souped up EyeToy. It truly is nothing new



2011.12.2010 20:20

^Agreed.

Looks new for the casual gamer and TBH, I think that it'll act like the Wii - fun with family/friends, boring with yourself but Live might remedy that.


Still, I think that the Kinect will die whereas the Move will go on strong for a while with new ideas possible on the Move.

2112.12.2010 3:45

Kinect is anything but "a souped up EyeToy". The 3d resolving algorithms are already extraordinary, and will get better with more devs working with it.
Move is a good ball tracking system, yes. Why can't that be good enough, why belittle the Kinect which is a WHOLLY different approach to the issue?
I'm always wary when people belittle a competing device to support their fav. Especially in this situation. Look at the brochure-like comments above "first time real time Hollywood style motion tracking has ever been used by the masses" and "employs the same exact motion control technology they use for Hollywood movies"... while saying about Kinect "The Kinect just picks up movement period, not accurately either".
Yeah, right.

2212.12.2010 7:49

@Elfman
You're implying that Kinect is accurate? Yeah right!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWbLOFGSEDo

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 12 Dec 2010 @ 7:50

2312.12.2010 11:45

It is funny how people make claims that kinect is not accurate. Well mine works just great. also my son barely uses his move, he is always upstairs using the Kinect.

Move does not bring the level of fun as Kinect, because you can nut use your whole body on the Move.

I predict Kinect will hit 6 million by January 15 2011.

I live in a very poor neighborhood, and when more than 4 people on the same block in the hood has a device it will be huge.

There is not one person that plays the kinect that does not like it. "Kinect Sports" kills everything on PS3 for move.

2412.12.2010 11:56

For PS move, they can sell controllers only and games can be downloaded from PSN which won't add to the sales. I'm thinking that the sales are for the complete set with sport champions. For kinect, they count cameras sold.

Also more people have Xbox 360s so take a percentage of 360 owners with Move and a percentage of PS3 owners with move and I bet you the Move percentage will be higher.

This guy is an idiot, he has no idea how to make a proper statement.

2512.12.2010 12:46

watch the name calling.

2612.12.2010 13:12

Originally posted by ddp:
watch the name calling.
To who?

2712.12.2010 14:57

why are all the Sony lovers making excuses, LOL. you fools act like Sony is your wife. they lost, just face it.

2812.12.2010 17:06

Originally posted by kikzm33z:
@Elfman
You're implying that Kinect is accurate? Yeah right!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWbLOFGSEDo
Yes, in what it does it works well. You are comparing a device that tracks a fixed point in space (Move) with a device that tracks and can accurately map a human skeletal system (using an TGB as well as 3D cameras).
Those are not the same thing.
For single pinpoint precision, Move has a great solution. For something entirely different, Kinect hasn't even hit it's stride yet. Again, they have different objectives, but YOU only measure them by Move's strength. Feel free to do that, but it's a pointless argument.

2912.12.2010 17:09

Originally posted by Kingdom10:
why are all the Sony lovers making excuses, LOL. you fools act like Sony is your wife. they lost, just face it.
You're obviously married to your Xbox. You sleep with it too?

3013.12.2010 3:34

Man, I hate fan-boys, I really do. I propose a new rule to after dawn if your a fan-boy then you are banned. Both consoles are very good and have their own unique nuances that entertain and that's why I have both. Fighting over which is better or sold more is just stupid. Why do people fight for companies that they do not have any stock in I have no clue. But I know one thing Sony and Microsoft are laughing all the way to the bank.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 13 Dec 2010 @ 3:48

3113.12.2010 5:09

Originally posted by chris1980:
Quote:
Also more people have Xbox 360s so take a percentage of 360 owners with Move and a percentage of PS3 owners with move and I bet you the Move percentage will be higher.


The kinect console bundle is out selling the move console bundle 5:1... that means that people with neither console are opting for the kinect
Nice! Hey, I can pull info out of my rear end too!
BMWs are outselling Toyotas 10:1

Also the Kinect bundle is $100 less. An everyday buyer is gonna get the 360 with Kinect thinking that they are getting a better deal. They'll come home, hook up the console to online and enjoy it. In a month, they'll be running out to get a flash drive or new hard drive. There is a $400 Kinect bundle but nobody sells that at a decent price (console + kinect separately is cheaper)

Don't tell me the "Patcher said this" BS. He's been wrong 95% of the time.
Reason Kinect is selling more is because people have trust in 360. They've done so many things right that people have trust in Microsoft. All those people are overlooking the ridiculous failure rate, scratching of discs, noise, external power supply, etc. People looked at PS3 at release and saw a $600 price tag and said "Sony sucks", then they saw the YLOD and were like "really sony?" and finally they looked at PS3s online and continued to make fun of it. They didn't look at the fact that for $300, you get so much more.

Originally posted by bankai987:
Man, I hate fan-boys, I really do. I propose a new rule to after dawn if your a fan-boy then you are banned. Both consoles are very good and have their own unique nuances that entertain and that's why I have both. Fighting over which is better or sold more is just stupid. Why do people fight for companies that they do not have any stock in I have no clue. But I know one thing Sony and Microsoft are laughing all the way to the bank.
If you're hinting that I'm a fan-boy, think again. Look at my signature, I have consoles from every manufacturer. I have 3 360s and 3 PS3s. I'll tell you straight out that playing online is identical on both systems except. There's games like Black Ops which suck on PSN but that's obviously Treyarch sucking at life because MW2 and everything else I've played works fine. Xbox 360 has the "goodies" which PS3 has too, Xbox just has a couple more. If someone judges a console by just the online portion, in my opinion, they're truly retarded.

For people pulling out the "360 has more games". Both consoles have the same number of games coming out now. Most games are multiplatform. For those on 360 that are like "We have Gears of War!" hey, we have Uncharted, Ratchet, Resistance, etc. Only reason 360s game library is greater is because it was out a year longer. It's like PS2s game library vs Xbox and Gamecube.

Now for my favorite. The people who say "You get a better deal with 360". Those people are legit retarded. PS3 has 100% PS1 backwards compatibility, the ability to upgrade the hard drive to a generic one, BluRay, a PlayStation Store which is much easier to use than Xbox's dash garbage (All my friends with a 360 agree here), built in Wifi from the start, the ability to play media files off a flash drive (PS3 can play more file types) and the ability to copy media files from an external device to the PS3s hard drive.

The reason I'm so pissed off is not because I'm a fanboy. It's because of all the news and how it goes against PS3. There's never any good news about the PS3, theres the news like "New Firmware Update" which people frown upon because it takes time to install, eliminates the possibility for homebrew, and won't let you go online until you install it. Might I add that Xbox 360 does the same thing except their updates take a lot less time. That doesn't bother me, PS3's firmware is a lot more complicated than 360s. The other article I remember is "PS3s getting the YLOD" Holy crap you're gonna report on that but not 360s RROD?

3213.12.2010 5:29

Originally posted by jookycola:
The Move is just a much better product. The Kinect has good technology and a great "idea" but is not ever going to be as accurate as the Move. The Move employs the same exact motion control technology they use for Hollywood movies. The glowing ball is followed by the camera to provide exact detailed movement. Just like how they motion capture movements of actors to add CGI action sequences to movies.

The Kinect just picks up movement period, not accurately either. Sony has the superior product but bet a little too much on that rep to push it's sales. In the end M$ had the better stocked shelves. When you have two rival technologies so close together you never give the rival the advantage. Sony did that by short shipping and allowing the Kinect to pound them. Why kill yourself looking from store to store at empty shelves of the PSMove when right next to it on another shelf are 1000's of Kinects just waiting to go home with you. Sony blew it.
LOL - People said the same thing about Sony when they brought out the Six-Axis. It has delivered nothing compared to the Wii and it makes you wonder what the point of Six-Axis is? Lets see what Sony does with this Six-Axis Mk2 device in the future and see if it measures up to Microsoft's Kinect.

3313.12.2010 5:35

Originally posted by TrinUK:
Originally posted by jookycola:
The Move is just a much better product. The Kinect has good technology and a great "idea" but is not ever going to be as accurate as the Move. The Move employs the same exact motion control technology they use for Hollywood movies. The glowing ball is followed by the camera to provide exact detailed movement. Just like how they motion capture movements of actors to add CGI action sequences to movies.

The Kinect just picks up movement period, not accurately either. Sony has the superior product but bet a little too much on that rep to push it's sales. In the end M$ had the better stocked shelves. When you have two rival technologies so close together you never give the rival the advantage. Sony did that by short shipping and allowing the Kinect to pound them. Why kill yourself looking from store to store at empty shelves of the PSMove when right next to it on another shelf are 1000's of Kinects just waiting to go home with you. Sony blew it.
LOL - People said the same thing about Sony when they brought out the Six-Axis. It has delivered nothing compared to the Wii and it makes you wonder what the point of Six-Axis is? Lets see what Sony does with this Six-Axis Mk2 device in the future and see if it measures up to Microsoft's Kinect.
There's a couple games out there that use Six Axis but it's not like it made the controller price any more expensive than the 360s so why bother bringing that up? It's a "free feature".

3413.12.2010 5:43

Originally posted by core2kid:
Originally posted by TrinUK:
Originally posted by jookycola:
The Move is just a much better product. The Kinect has good technology and a great "idea" but is not ever going to be as accurate as the Move. The Move employs the same exact motion control technology they use for Hollywood movies. The glowing ball is followed by the camera to provide exact detailed movement. Just like how they motion capture movements of actors to add CGI action sequences to movies.

The Kinect just picks up movement period, not accurately either. Sony has the superior product but bet a little too much on that rep to push it's sales. In the end M$ had the better stocked shelves. When you have two rival technologies so close together you never give the rival the advantage. Sony did that by short shipping and allowing the Kinect to pound them. Why kill yourself looking from store to store at empty shelves of the PSMove when right next to it on another shelf are 1000's of Kinects just waiting to go home with you. Sony blew it.
LOL - People said the same thing about Sony when they brought out the Six-Axis. It has delivered nothing compared to the Wii and it makes you wonder what the point of Six-Axis is? Lets see what Sony does with this Six-Axis Mk2 device in the future and see if it measures up to Microsoft's Kinect.
There's a couple games out there that use Six Axis but it's not like it made the controller price any more expensive than the 360s so why bother bringing that up? It's a "free feature".
I dont think you quite got it. Microsoft did not have motion sensing. PS3 did and now they are bring out another. Why??? when they should have got it right in the first place and this time you need 2 devices or sometimes 3 to play one game. That was the point I was making. So with this in mind, the PS3 controller system has worked out to be more expensive than the 360. You also failed to mention that a second PS3 controller was released with the Dualshock feature absent from the first generation controllers. Woe unto those who want to play 2, 3 or 4 player Move games as it's gonna be a costly investment. :)
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 13 Dec 2010 @ 5:54

Trin - Making Digital Waves

3513.12.2010 5:47

Originally posted by TrinUK:
Originally posted by core2kid:
Originally posted by TrinUK:
Originally posted by jookycola:
The Move is just a much better product. The Kinect has good technology and a great "idea" but is not ever going to be as accurate as the Move. The Move employs the same exact motion control technology they use for Hollywood movies. The glowing ball is followed by the camera to provide exact detailed movement. Just like how they motion capture movements of actors to add CGI action sequences to movies.

The Kinect just picks up movement period, not accurately either. Sony has the superior product but bet a little too much on that rep to push it's sales. In the end M$ had the better stocked shelves. When you have two rival technologies so close together you never give the rival the advantage. Sony did that by short shipping and allowing the Kinect to pound them. Why kill yourself looking from store to store at empty shelves of the PSMove when right next to it on another shelf are 1000's of Kinects just waiting to go home with you. Sony blew it.
LOL - People said the same thing about Sony when they brought out the Six-Axis. It has delivered nothing compared to the Wii and it makes you wonder what the point of Six-Axis is? Lets see what Sony does with this Six-Axis Mk2 device in the future and see if it measures up to Microsoft's Kinect.
There's a couple games out there that use Six Axis but it's not like it made the controller price any more expensive than the 360s so why bother bringing that up? It's a "free feature".
I dont think you quite got it. Microsoft did not have motion sensing. PS3 did and now they are bring out another. Why??? and this time you need 2 devices or sometime 3 to play one game. That was the point I was making.
Yea, you have a camera, motion controller and navigation controller which is essentially a DualShock 3 controller in another form. Wii has a sensor bar, wiimote, and the addition which can be nunchuck, classic controller, etc.

3613.12.2010 5:56

Originally posted by core2kid:
Originally posted by TrinUK:
Originally posted by core2kid:
Originally posted by TrinUK:
Originally posted by jookycola:
The Move is just a much better product. The Kinect has good technology and a great "idea" but is not ever going to be as accurate as the Move. The Move employs the same exact motion control technology they use for Hollywood movies. The glowing ball is followed by the camera to provide exact detailed movement. Just like how they motion capture movements of actors to add CGI action sequences to movies.

The Kinect just picks up movement period, not accurately either. Sony has the superior product but bet a little too much on that rep to push it's sales. In the end M$ had the better stocked shelves. When you have two rival technologies so close together you never give the rival the advantage. Sony did that by short shipping and allowing the Kinect to pound them. Why kill yourself looking from store to store at empty shelves of the PSMove when right next to it on another shelf are 1000's of Kinects just waiting to go home with you. Sony blew it.
LOL - People said the same thing about Sony when they brought out the Six-Axis. It has delivered nothing compared to the Wii and it makes you wonder what the point of Six-Axis is? Lets see what Sony does with this Six-Axis Mk2 device in the future and see if it measures up to Microsoft's Kinect.
There's a couple games out there that use Six Axis but it's not like it made the controller price any more expensive than the 360s so why bother bringing that up? It's a "free feature".
I dont think you quite got it. Microsoft did not have motion sensing. PS3 did and now they are bring out another. Why??? and this time you need 2 devices or sometime 3 to play one game. That was the point I was making.
Yea, you have a camera, motion controller and navigation controller which is essentially a DualShock 3 controller in another form. Wii has a sensor bar, wiimote, and the addition which can be nunchuck, classic controller, etc.
I revised my comment - please read. Thanks.

Trin - Making Digital Waves

3713.12.2010 6:10

Originally posted by TrinUK:
I dont think you quite got it. Microsoft did not have motion sensing. PS3 did and now they are bring out another. Why??? when they should have got it right in the first place and this time you need 2 devices or sometimes 3 to play one game. That was the point I was making. So with this in mind, the PS3 controller system has worked out to be more expensive than the 360. You also failed to mention that a second PS3 controller was released with the Dualshock feature absent from the first generation controllers. Woe unto those who want to play 2, 3 or 4 player Move games as it's gonna be a costly investment. :)

Kinect can only track 2 active people. Move can become expensive but so can the Wii. PS3 controller system is more expensive but you're able to play with 4 people at once. If you play with 2 people at once, it's the same price as Kinect with the additional controller. You can't compare SixAxis with Move, it's a different concept all together. SixAxis is only to enhance gameplay. It's not Sony's fault of devs don't use it. No multiplatform game uses it, the devs are to lazy. Almost all exclusive games use it.
Yes, DualShock 3 was absent in the first generation of PS3 controllers. The Xbox 360 lacked Wifi in the first 4 years of the console requiring you to buy a $100 adapter.

3813.12.2010 14:50

Originally posted by elfman12:
Kinect is anything but "a souped up EyeToy". The 3d resolving algorithms are already extraordinary, and will get better with more devs working with it.
Move is a good ball tracking system, yes. Why can't that be good enough, why belittle the Kinect which is a WHOLLY different approach to the issue?
I'm always wary when people belittle a competing device to support their fav. Especially in this situation. Look at the brochure-like comments above "first time real time Hollywood style motion tracking has ever been used by the masses" and "employs the same exact motion control technology they use for Hollywood movies"... while saying about Kinect "The Kinect just picks up movement period, not accurately either".
Yeah, right.
Trust me, kinect is crap.

It's very slow, I was at a party I tried it by myself and with kids, at best it's about 2-3 seconds behind what you actually do in the game.

9 times out of 10 it's purely by luck that the right thing happens correctly.

You can really only use it for about 5-10 mins pushing kids included because you get tired from jumping around the place.

The camera does nothing other than take photos while your using a game then displays the photos it's run out of space and then whinge about how you have to manually delete photos before it'll take more photos again in game, it takes about 15 photos per game play, so on an arcade you've used up all the memory with 30 photos.

That's in the adventures & the dance games.

The girls mainly got yellows in dancing but being kids don't understand that they aren't actually winning but loosing or failing about 98% of the time playing.

The adventures game in the rapids you'll jump but the game does nothing until a good 2-3 seconds later so you'll smash into logs and stuff rather than jump over them.

for the ball game you need to swing your arm before the ball actually rebounds off the back wall before you'll have any chance to hit the ball with your hand, other wise it's simply hitting your body maybe.

Also you'll need to clear about 15 meters of space for it to work correctly as it'll work poorly with a minim of 10 meters cleared.

by cleared I mean no tables below the kinect bar or your legs will be blocked, you can't be with-in 5 meters of the bar or it can't see you, same with being too far away, you need about 10 meter side by side cleared as well.

10 meters will only work for 1 person 15 meters will allow 2 people to work.

you really need a empty room with just a tv and kinect system setup you can't have any chairs in the way or around other wise you could smash into them.


so beside being really slow you need an empty room just for it to work correctly you'll need to correct amount of space for 1 person or more for 2 people.

until you've actually used it at a house you don't see how limited it really is.

I don' know why MS would actually push such a crap product for the sake of trying to complete with the Wii and Move systems.

many people and kids at the party ended up saying it was ok but most gave up after a while because your generally loosing and end up getting tired with in 5 mins also the gamnes get boring fairly quick as it's the same thing over and over like jumping or going side to side.

3913.12.2010 14:56

Originally posted by core2kid:
Originally posted by TrinUK:
I dont think you quite got it. Microsoft did not have motion sensing. PS3 did and now they are bring out another. Why??? when they should have got it right in the first place and this time you need 2 devices or sometimes 3 to play one game. That was the point I was making. So with this in mind, the PS3 controller system has worked out to be more expensive than the 360. You also failed to mention that a second PS3 controller was released with the Dualshock feature absent from the first generation controllers. Woe unto those who want to play 2, 3 or 4 player Move games as it's gonna be a costly investment. :)

Kinect can only track 2 active people. Move can become expensive but so can the Wii. PS3 controller system is more expensive but you're able to play with 4 people at once. If you play with 2 people at once, it's the same price as Kinect with the additional controller. You can't compare SixAxis with Move, it's a different concept all together. SixAxis is only to enhance gameplay. It's not Sony's fault of devs don't use it. No multiplatform game uses it, the devs are to lazy. Almost all exclusive games use it.
Yes, DualShock 3 was absent in the first generation of PS3 controllers. The Xbox 360 lacked Wifi in the first 4 years of the console requiring you to buy a $100 adapter.

Warhawk warhound, use the motion controller part for the plane control, same with mony of the plane games on PS3, and many are multi platform.

burnout paradise PS3 can use it for steering it's not too bad but you have to get used to it, it works like a steering wheel would, you an use this in multiplayer.

You have little idea at how many games use it but many people don't want to use it while playing.

4013.12.2010 17:43

Originally posted by xtago:
Originally posted by core2kid:
Originally posted by TrinUK:
I dont think you quite got it. Microsoft did not have motion sensing. PS3 did and now they are bring out another. Why??? when they should have got it right in the first place and this time you need 2 devices or sometimes 3 to play one game. That was the point I was making. So with this in mind, the PS3 controller system has worked out to be more expensive than the 360. You also failed to mention that a second PS3 controller was released with the Dualshock feature absent from the first generation controllers. Woe unto those who want to play 2, 3 or 4 player Move games as it's gonna be a costly investment. :)

Kinect can only track 2 active people. Move can become expensive but so can the Wii. PS3 controller system is more expensive but you're able to play with 4 people at once. If you play with 2 people at once, it's the same price as Kinect with the additional controller. You can't compare SixAxis with Move, it's a different concept all together. SixAxis is only to enhance gameplay. It's not Sony's fault of devs don't use it. No multiplatform game uses it, the devs are to lazy. Almost all exclusive games use it.
Yes, DualShock 3 was absent in the first generation of PS3 controllers. The Xbox 360 lacked Wifi in the first 4 years of the console requiring you to buy a $100 adapter.

Warhawk warhound, use the motion controller part for the plane control, same with mony of the plane games on PS3, and many are multi platform.

burnout paradise PS3 can use it for steering it's not too bad but you have to get used to it, it works like a steering wheel would, you an use this in multiplayer.

You have little idea at how many games use it but many people don't want to use it while playing.

When I said "Use it" I wanted to mean like require you to use it, not something where you could change from steering with the analog stick to Six Axis. Mainly games like Ratchet in the puzzles, Uncharaed in some missions etc.

4113.12.2010 18:13

I just bought the kinect yesterday and i think it works really good the tracking is on point,i cant speak for move as i dont own one or played on one but i can speak on the wii it's better and more accurate,In my opinion just buy what you like.But for those that are saying kinect is inaccurate i dont understand it tracks motion almost spot on atleast for me it do.

4213.12.2010 18:22

Originally posted by Se7ven:
I just bought the kinect yesterday and i think it works really good the tracking is on point,i cant speak for move as i dont own one or played on one but i can speak on the wii it's better and more accurate,In my opinion just buy what you like.But for those that are saying kinect is inaccurate i dont understand it tracks motion almost spot on atleast for me it do.
Really? I think the PS Move works really well.

4314.12.2010 0:32

Originally posted by xtago:

Trust me, kinect is crap.

It's very slow,

The camera does nothing other than take photos while your using a game then displays the photos it's run out of space and then whinge about how you have to manually delete photos before it'll take more photos again in game, it takes about 15 photos per game play, so on an arcade you've used up all the memory with 30



Well, you ask me to trust you, then I read your critique.

I don't trust your judgment based on that.

I own a Kinect. I've used it over the last 5 weeks, had it at a family weekend over Thanksgiving, and everyone who played it loved it. Everyone seemed to have as much fun with it as with the Wii or a Rock Band party. Lots of exhausted laughing when finished, wanting to try a new game. Reading your review I get the picture of you as a person who would go up to a kid having fun with a Tickle-me-Elmo and telling them that they are stupid to like it, since it's only has a 16bit playback device in it. If it's not at least 24bit then FAIL!!!! <g>

The RGB camera does much more, including identifying you based on your face and automatically logging you into XBOX Live, and working as a face-aware zoom-able camera for video chat, using the RGB as an overlay on Fitness Evolved (adding realism to your onscreen avatar), and more. Yet you complain because a single game takes "too many photos" of you. Wow.

I'm sure you won't change your mind, I just want to make sure that your distortions are not used by others to make up their minds about Kinect. It's an amazing device. And your comments about the play space are much exaggerated, but space is needed. I have about 6' away from the TV cleared out, and it works fine. The more space the better, though, and I don't see much difference between space for this and space for "rowdy" Wii and Move games (in you're gonna move, you need the room. simple as that.)

And BTW, Move is great at what it does as well. I hope people who get one for Christmas really enjoy the great games that are out for it as well.

4414.12.2010 0:34

Originally posted by elfman12:
Originally posted by xtago:

Trust me, kinect is crap.

It's very slow,

The camera does nothing other than take photos while your using a game then displays the photos it's run out of space and then whinge about how you have to manually delete photos before it'll take more photos again in game, it takes about 15 photos per game play, so on an arcade you've used up all the memory with 30



Well, you ask me to trust you, then I read your critique.

I don't trust your judgment based on that.

I own a Kinect. I've used it over the last 5 weeks, had it at a family weekend over Thanksgiving, and everyone who played it loved it. Everyone seemed to have as much fun with it as with the Wii or a Rock Band party. Lots of exhausted laughing when finished, wanting to try a new game. Reading your review I get the picture of you as a person who would go up to a kid having fun with a Tickle-me-Elmo and telling them that they are stupid to like it, since it's only has a 16bit playback device in it. If it's not at least 24bit then FAIL!!!! <g>

The RGB camera does much more, including identifying you based on your face and automatically logging you into XBOX Live, and working as a face-aware zoom-able camera for video chat, using the RGB as an overlay on Fitness Evolved (adding realism to your onscreen avatar), and more. Yet you complain because a single game takes "too many photos" of you. Wow.

I'm sure you won't change your mind, I just want to make sure that your distortions are not used by others to make up their minds about Kinect. It's an amazing device. And your comments about the play space are much exaggerated, but space is needed. I have about 6' away from the TV cleared out, and it works fine. The more space the better, though, and I don't see much difference between space for this and space for "rowdy" Wii and Move games (in you're gonna move, you need the room. simple as that.)

And BTW, Move is great at what it does as well. I hope people who get one for Christmas really enjoy the great games that are out for it as well.
The Kinects camera specs suck, that's why it lags. I also bet Kinect's performance depends on your background. If you're playing with a white background behind you, it's gonna be amazing. If you have picture frames or an incomplete wall or another room say behind you, it won't work as well.

4514.12.2010 4:52

Originally posted by core2kid:
Originally posted by chris1980:
Quote:
Also more people have Xbox 360s so take a percentage of 360 owners with Move and a percentage of PS3 owners with move and I bet you the Move percentage will be higher.


The kinect console bundle is out selling the move console bundle 5:1... that means that people with neither console are opting for the kinect
Nice! Hey, I can pull info out of my rear end too!
BMWs are outselling Toyotas 10:1

Also the Kinect bundle is $100 less. An everyday buyer is gonna get the 360 with Kinect thinking that they are getting a better deal. They'll come home, hook up the console to online and enjoy it. In a month, they'll be running out to get a flash drive or new hard drive. There is a $400 Kinect bundle but nobody sells that at a decent price (console + kinect separately is cheaper)

Don't tell me the "Patcher said this" BS. He's been wrong 95% of the time.
Reason Kinect is selling more is because people have trust in 360. They've done so many things right that people have trust in Microsoft. All those people are overlooking the ridiculous failure rate, scratching of discs, noise, external power supply, etc. People looked at PS3 at release and saw a $600 price tag and said "Sony sucks", then they saw the YLOD and were like "really sony?" and finally they looked at PS3s online and continued to make fun of it. They didn't look at the fact that for $300, you get so much more.

Originally posted by bankai987:
Man, I hate fan-boys, I really do. I propose a new rule to after dawn if your a fan-boy then you are banned. Both consoles are very good and have their own unique nuances that entertain and that's why I have both. Fighting over which is better or sold more is just stupid. Why do people fight for companies that they do not have any stock in I have no clue. But I know one thing Sony and Microsoft are laughing all the way to the bank.
If you're hinting that I'm a fan-boy, think again. Look at my signature, I have consoles from every manufacturer. I have 3 360s and 3 PS3s. I'll tell you straight out that playing online is identical on both systems except. There's games like Black Ops which suck on PSN but that's obviously Treyarch sucking at life because MW2 and everything else I've played works fine. Xbox 360 has the "goodies" which PS3 has too, Xbox just has a couple more. If someone judges a console by just the online portion, in my opinion, they're truly retarded.

For people pulling out the "360 has more games". Both consoles have the same number of games coming out now. Most games are multiplatform. For those on 360 that are like "We have Gears of War!" hey, we have Uncharted, Ratchet, Resistance, etc. Only reason 360s game library is greater is because it was out a year longer. It's like PS2s game library vs Xbox and Gamecube.

Now for my favorite. The people who say "You get a better deal with 360". Those people are legit retarded. PS3 has 100% PS1 backwards compatibility, the ability to upgrade the hard drive to a generic one, BluRay, a PlayStation Store which is much easier to use than Xbox's dash garbage (All my friends with a 360 agree here), built in Wifi from the start, the ability to play media files off a flash drive (PS3 can play more file types) and the ability to copy media files from an external device to the PS3s hard drive.

The reason I'm so pissed off is not because I'm a fanboy. It's because of all the news and how it goes against PS3. There's never any good news about the PS3, theres the news like "New Firmware Update" which people frown upon because it takes time to install, eliminates the possibility for homebrew, and won't let you go online until you install it. Might I add that Xbox 360 does the same thing except their updates take a lot less time. That doesn't bother me, PS3's firmware is a lot more complicated than 360s. The other article I remember is "PS3s getting the YLOD" Holy crap you're gonna report on that but not 360s RROD?
First of all, I never called you a fan boy, it was general. I never called out a individual in particular. You are asserting something that I never said. If your not a fan boy then my post wasn't directed towards you. I was just stating what I was seeing through out the thread. however, there are fan boys and the proof is in the posts. i.e. ps3 is greater than x box or vice verse. I am fully aware that some people on this forum can be objective like yourself.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 14 Dec 2010 @ 5:37

4614.12.2010 11:13

Originally posted by elfman12:
Originally posted by kikzm33z:
@Elfman
You're implying that Kinect is accurate? Yeah right!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWbLOFGSEDo
Yes, in what it does it works well. You are comparing a device that tracks a fixed point in space (Move) with a device that tracks and can accurately map a human skeletal system (using an TGB as well as 3D cameras).
Those are not the same thing.
For single pinpoint precision, Move has a great solution. For something entirely different, Kinect hasn't even hit it's stride yet. Again, they have different objectives, but YOU only measure them by Move's strength. Feel free to do that, but it's a pointless argument.
I don't understand.
I am comparing both products and Move is clearly more accurate because of its controls and that's a positive point for it.

What you're saying is something like, 'Hey, Kinect doesn't need controllers but we can't add that as an argument because Move uses controllers.'

And obviously the lack of controllers for the Kinect is a positive point but since it's different to the Move, you're saying that it's not comparable because it's different.

If that was the case, then the word 'comparison' would never have existed.

4714.12.2010 11:40

Originally posted by kikzm33z:
Originally posted by elfman12:
Originally posted by kikzm33z:
@Elfman
You're implying that Kinect is accurate? Yeah right!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWbLOFGSEDo
Yes, in what it does it works well. You are comparing a device that tracks a fixed point in space (Move) with a device that tracks and can accurately map a human skeletal system (using an TGB as well as 3D cameras).
Those are not the same thing.
For single pinpoint precision, Move has a great solution. For something entirely different, Kinect hasn't even hit it's stride yet. Again, they have different objectives, but YOU only measure them by Move's strength. Feel free to do that, but it's a pointless argument.
I don't understand.
I am comparing both products and Move is clearly more accurate because of its controls and that's a positive point for it.

What you're saying is something like, 'Hey, Kinect doesn't need controllers but we can't add that as an argument because Move uses controllers.'

And obviously the lack of controllers for the Kinect is a positive point but since it's different to the Move, you're saying that it's not comparable because it's different.

If that was the case, then the word 'comparison' would never have existed.
If that's the case, this news article shouldn't have been published in the first place.

4814.12.2010 16:45

Exactly.
Both were made to compete and to be compared and Move's better accuracy is one of its argument and shouldn't be disregarded of just because Kinect doesn't have controllers to compete with Move's precision.

4914.12.2010 17:18

Originally posted by kikzm33z:
Exactly.
Both were made to compete and to be compared and Move's better accuracy is one of its argument and shouldn't be disregarded of just because Kinect doesn't have controllers to compete with Move's precision.
Move is like a mouse, Kinect is like a Mac touchpad.

5014.12.2010 18:40

Originally posted by core2kid:

If you're playing with a white background behind you, it's gonna be amazing. If you have picture frames or an incomplete wall or another room say behind you, it won't work as well.

Nope, I have dark furniture as a background and a doorway to another room.
And the camera doesn't "lag".

5114.12.2010 18:46

Originally posted by kikzm33z:

I don't understand.
I am comparing both products and Move is clearly more accurate because of its controls and that's a positive point for it.

And obviously the lack of controllers for the Kinect is a positive point but since it's different to the Move, you're saying that it's not comparable because it's different.

If that was the case, then the word 'comparison' would never have existed.

No, I'm saying that, although these are motion system, they are both trying to do different things. Move tracks single points in space, and Kinect is trying to monitor motion in an entire playspace. In that case, "accuracy" means different things for different devices. Pinpoint accuracy of a single point in space is very important to Move, but not the purpose of Kinect - it can have less "resolution" and still track the 3D movement of a body.
But using the higher "resolving ability" of Move as if it's the only attribute that matters is simply disingenuous.
It would be the same as me arguing that Move sucks because it can't track the rotational velocity of my right knee joint. Kinect can do it, but Move has no reason to... but that doesn't make it bad.

5214.12.2010 23:38

Originally posted by chris1980:
Quote:
Nice! Hey, I can pull info out of my rear end too!
BMWs are outselling Toyotas 10:1
Nice! Hey, I can be a pompous wanker too!
Get a life, fan boy.

Quote:
You can really only use it for about 5-10 mins pushing kids included because you get tired from jumping around the place.


So your lack of fitness is microsoft's fault?
You're the fanboy. Have you said one nice thing about Move?

5314.12.2010 23:48

Originally posted by chris1980:
So your lack of fitness is microsoft's fault?
I gotta agree with him here.

5416.12.2010 22:52

I have a Kinect.. It is accurate..I play it in the dark,bright light and with my dogs running around and it works great. Way better than having to hold a controller..Also you can not get accurate movement of everything with a glowing ball... people that dont like the connect probably havent even played one.. go to best buy or somewhere and play.. if you live near raleigh nc you can come to my house and play... Kinect is way, way, way superior...

5516.12.2010 23:55

Personally i have no use for a kinect however it seems apart from the web browser control hack those hacks keep evolving if only they could make one to control xp then i'd buy one



MIT engineer Garratt Gallagher developed a way to use the Kinect sensor to distinguish both hands and individual fingers in a cloud of more than 60,000 points, at speeds up to 30 frames per second.

The system uses the Kinect and the libfreenect driver for interfacing with Linux. "The graphical interface and the hand detection software were written at MIT to interface with the open source robotics package 'ROS,' developed by Willow Garage (willowgarage.com)," according to MIT's CSAIL page on YouTube.

"The hand detection software showcases the abilities of the Point Cloud Library (PCL), a part of ROS that MIT has been helping to optimize."

What kills us with this is that no one is using head gear, gloves with diodes sticking out of them, or bulky "virtual reality" 3D glasses. It's a Microsoft Kinect that you stand in front of. You could put it in someone's living room, or at their desk in an office, and get this interface anywhere.



http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2374136,00.asp


5617.12.2010 0:17

Originally posted by bw5011:
Way better than having to hold a controller

That is your opinion. Nobody cares about your opinion.

Originally posted by bw5011:
..Also you can not get accurate movement of everything with a glowing ball...

Move also has a Camera which is able to capture 120FPS at 320x240, 60FPS at 640x480. Kinect camera specs are 30FPS at 640x480. I'm not bashing Kinect here, specs are quite good for an RGB camera but the PlayStation Eye has no problems with tracking even in pitch dark (I know from experience).

Originally posted by bw5011:
people that dont like the connect probably havent even played one..

Maybe but it's obvious that you haven't played Move. Kinect isn't anything like the commercials. At least Move is somewhat like the commercials. Both commercials are greatly exaggerated though.

Originally posted by bw5011:
go to best buy or somewhere and play.. if you live near raleigh nc you can come to my house and play

That comment is so weird.
Originally posted by bw5011:
... Kinect is way, way, way superior...

Again, your opinion. I beg to differ. Kinect is basically EyeToy on PS2. Everyone hated EyeToy. I found it interesting for the first couple days. Now that Microsoft makes it, everyone loves it?
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 17 Dec 2010 @ 0:34

5717.12.2010 0:29

no fan wars or there will be bans!!

5817.12.2010 0:36

Originally posted by ddp:
no fan wars or there will be bans!!
ddp, no disrespect or anything but I fail to see where I showed "fanboy-ism". My entire goal in this thread is to prove to the people who say "kinect is better" and haven't even played Move. I've played both. I owned both for a week. I returned both because they weren't worth it for me but I did find Move gave me less problems.

5917.12.2010 0:39

i want to see real numbers on this. i faintly remember being called an idiot(or somthing along those lines) when i said Kinect would out sell the Move.


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6017.12.2010 0:44

Originally posted by DXR88:
i want to see real numbers on this. i faintly remember being called an idiot(or somthing along those lines) when i said Kinect would out sell the Move.
"This guy is an idiot, he has no idea how to make a proper statement."
I'm talking about Patcher.

6117.12.2010 2:30

Originally posted by ddp:
no fan wars or there will be bans!!
Can you you really make this happen ddp, and not let this turn into gamepro forums. Please, make this a new rule.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 17 Dec 2010 @ 2:32

6217.12.2010 3:18

Originally posted by bankai987:
Originally posted by ddp:
no fan wars or there will be bans!!
Can you you really make this happen ddp, and not let this turn into gamepro forums. Please, make this a new rule.
I agree. I bet half the people here haven't tried Move or Kinect in their home. I really don't could demo station Move or Kinect systems since their calibration could be off. I've tried both and I can tell you that I have positive and negative things for both!

Want an excellent system with NO chance of Fanboy-ism?


This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 17 Dec 2010 @ 3:18

6317.12.2010 3:55

One thing though I believe people should voice their opinions, but not to the point of inciting a fan boy war, all consoles are great in there own way, they are here for enjoyment.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 17 Dec 2010 @ 4:04

6417.12.2010 8:58

the Dream Cast was a bad ass system. Sega knew how to develop gaming machines, there marketing & title line-ups what cost them.



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6517.12.2010 9:02

Originally posted by bankai987:
One thing though I believe people should voice their opinions, but not to the point of inciting a fan boy war, all consoles are great in there own way, they are here for enjoyment.
clearly they're there so we can bitch about why ones great and the others complete crap.

other wise we would just have one gaming machine to rule them all...and we would call it PC.

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6617.12.2010 9:50

Originally posted by DXR88:
the Dream Cast was a bad ass system. Sega knew how to develop gaming machines, there marketing & title line-ups what cost them.


The dreamcast was amazing and with a release almost 2 years before PS2, it ruled. I agree though, lack of games killed it.

Originally posted by DXR88:
Originally posted by bankai987:
One thing though I believe people should voice their opinions, but not to the point of inciting a fan boy war, all consoles are great in there own way, they are here for enjoyment.
clearly they're there so we can bitch about why ones great and the others complete crap.

other wise we would just have one gaming machine to rule them all...and we would call it PC.
PC wins, no doubt. (Now we'll start a fanboy war about Mac or Windows)
LINUX!

6717.12.2010 10:02

So your lack of fitness is microsoft's fault?

mental fitness.. yes XD




ARR! Them pesky Navy! Get out of my sea!
irc://irc.villageirc.net/afterdawn http://www.pirateparty.org.uk/

6817.12.2010 12:54

The kinect is now at 4 million estimates are 6 million before years end holy shit ! it seems to me 4 million can't be wrong..lol..

http://www.neowin.net/news/kinect-hits-4-million-units-outpacing-nintendo-in-same-launch-period


6917.12.2010 13:11

Units sold is old news it seems so Andre where's the link to the original author of the context you have taken what you have posted here

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/article.cfm/2010/11/30/microsoft_kinect_sales_hit_2_5_million

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 17 Dec 2010 @ 15:00

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