AfterDawn: Tech news

Opening Windows 8: Rethinking the missing Start menu

Written by Rich Fiscus (Google+) @ 02 Nov 2012 2:55 User comments (52)

Opening Windows 8: Rethinking the missing Start menu You may not realize that Microsoft has actually been a proponent of the tablet PC for more than a decade. In fact as early as 2002 they were releasing a tablet PC version of Windows. For numerous reasons previous generations of the Windows tablet PC simply didn't work for most people. The interface wasn't particularly tablet friendly, the operating system was too power hungry, and PC hardware really wasn't suitable in a variety of ways.
The new Windows 8 tablets and hybrids really do address almost every problem with those previous attempts. A large part of that is the new modern UI (aka the UI previously known as Metro) which uses tiles which roughly combine the functionality of both regular icon shortcuts and widgets found in the Android interface. But because Windows 8 is still a PC operating system it still has all the features you typically associate with Windows, most of which were typically accessed through the Start menu.

There again Microsoft has done a pretty good job of making those features and settings accessible via a tablet's touch interface. Some of them, like program shortcuts, are simply added to the Start screen which is the modern UI equivalent to the desktop. Others are accessed using gestures which basically means swiping from the right side of the screen toward the middle to bring up the Charms bar.

But most Windows users don't have tablets


If you are going to be running Windows 8 on a tablet all of that works pretty nicely but what about a desktop or laptop where you are using a mouse and keyboard rather than a touchscreen? Even if you haven't tried out Windows 8 for yourself you have almost certainly seen the overwhelmingly negative reaction to the changes they made to the traditional desktop interface. Specifically most of the complaints are about Microsoft's decision to remove the Start menu.

The issue isn't necessarily the Start menu itself. In more than a decade of the Start menu's existence it has become home for so many different settings and tools that sometimes it can be difficult for even a long time Windows power user to remember exactly where to find a particular option. But the solution, in this case, seems to create more problems than it solves. If you haven't already experienced the changes for yourself this video details the new locations for everything that used to be found on the Start menu. It's a little long because there are lots of things to find.



As you can see in the video the bigger issue isn't losing the Start menu so much as Windows' new split personality. It simply doesn't make sense for someone who primarily (or exclusively) uses the desktop interface to be transported to the Start screen to access basic Windows functions. For example, if you're trying to find a standard built-in Windows program like Notepad you have two choices. Either you switch to the Start screen, change the view to show all the program shortcuts and then click on the Notepad tile or you can use Search from the Charms bar and Windows will drag you to the Start screen automatically. Either way it's more work than just using the old Start menu.

An opening for third party developers


As frustrating as this is it's not necessarily a reason to avoid Windows 8. If anything it may ultimately lead to the Windows desktop getting the same kind of attention so many other aspects of Windows have. There is already both free and commercial software capable of filling this niche, such as Classic Shell and Start8. In the next couple days each of those programs we will be providing more details about each of those programs.

What's even more exciting, though, is the thought that the millions of Windows users and developers around the world now have an incentive to go even further with their customizations. We already see this in the Linux world where pretty much every part of the GUI can be customized. Work on a port of KDE,
the KDE for Windows installer
Installing KDE for Windows
one of the two most common Linux/UNIX desktop environments, for Windows has been going on since before Windows 7 was released.

Considering the multitude of different ways Windows, or any modern OS, is used, having a single user interface for everything seems to make less sense today than every before. In fact one of Microsoft's primary goals over the last decade has been to reshape Windows to use a more UNIX-like model where various features, most notably the GUI, are entirely optional. In fact running Windows without the GUI, one of the top requests from Windows system administrators for years, was one of the primary reasons for this change in design philosophy.

These changes may not have been intended to loosen Microsoft's control over the interface, but it seems only natural that's exactly what would happen eventually. And even though it's probably the last thing Microsoft executives would like to see, it's probably a necessary development if Windows is going to remain relevant going forward. The more things people expect their computers to do, the less sense it makes for everyone to use a single user interface. And yet (despite technically using two different UIs) that's exactly what Windows 8 still has.

The more things a PC is expected to do, the less likely it is that any particular Windows user needs to do all of them. Some people will only need the modern UI. Others only need the desktop. For still others neither is particularly useful. Most people have long since rejected the idea that Microsoft should decide what their applications can do. Why not demand the same level of independence for the UI?

Not only does thinking in those terms open up a world of possibilities for the PC, it makes Windows 8 a lot more appealing even if the user interface isn't exactly what you're used to or even what you want or need.

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52 user comments

12.11.2012 5:00

Quote:
For example, if you're trying to find a standard built-in Windows program like Notepad you have two choices. Either you switch to the Start screen, change the view to show all the program shortcuts and then click on the Notepad tile or you can use Search from the Charms bar and Windows will drag you to the Start screen automatically
Or you could right click the bottom left of the screen and choose "Run" then type "notepad", you could even pin "Run" to your taskbar, then it is even easier. As a home user I have used Windows and Mac for a long time. I really don't get why people are making such a big deal about Windows 8. Everything can be as easy as you want it to be. People just don't like change.

And for those that miss their start menu, then download one, there are a few good free ones out there.

22.11.2012 6:46

Originally posted by bloke2000:
And for those that miss their start menu, then download one, there are a few good free ones out there.

Or save money and hassle and avoid Windows 8 altogether. ;-)
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 Nov 2012 @ 6:46

32.11.2012 7:15

Originally posted by nonoitall:
Originally posted by bloke2000:
And for those that miss their start menu, then download one, there are a few good free ones out there.

Or save money and hassle and avoid Windows 8 altogether. ;-)
I Agree with your point, but I am coming from a developers perspective so cannot afford to Avoid Windows 8.

42.11.2012 7:57

Originally posted by bloke2000:
I Agree with your point, but I am coming from a developers perspective so cannot afford to Avoid Windows 8.

You wouldn't be the first if you did.

52.11.2012 8:23

Originally posted by bloke2000:
Quote:
For example, if you're trying to find a standard built-in Windows program like Notepad you have two choices. Either you switch to the Start screen, change the view to show all the program shortcuts and then click on the Notepad tile or you can use Search from the Charms bar and Windows will drag you to the Start screen automatically
Or you could right click the bottom left of the screen and choose "Run" then type "notepad", you could even pin "Run" to your taskbar, then it is even easier. As a home user I have used Windows and Mac for a long time. I really don't get why people are making such a big deal about Windows 8. Everything can be as easy as you want it to be. People just don't like change.

And for those that miss their start menu, then download one, there are a few good free ones out there.
Yes, you can manually run notepad...but what if you are like me, with a start menu that has 25 apps pinned to it, many with long path names so I can't just type "photoshop" but instead have to type ""C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Photoshop CS5 (64 Bit)\Photoshop.exe"". Yes, I can get a new start menu...but I already have a f**king start menu...it came with windows 7. As for putting them all on the desktop, that doesn't work for me. I use the desktop as a virtual desktop of sorts...it is usually full of the files from whatever project I am working on.

As for this being a good thing because it forces people to customize their UI, I am not sure that is the case. Look at Android as an example...a lot simpler and easier to learn than a PC OS, yet the (slightly) different UIs between manufacturers is one of the biggest user complains when upgrading...and that is with a start menu of sorts.


62.11.2012 8:32

Quote:
I Agree with your point, but I am coming from a developers perspective so cannot afford to Avoid Windows 8.
That's kind of crock right there, for starters there are numerous other OS clients to develop for. Second, look what happened when developers didn't push behind Windows ME and VITA. We ended up with XP and 7. What will we end up with after 8? I can't see the Metro UI going away anytime soon, but MS will definitely make changes to improve the interface over time like they did with their previous OS's. Sure you can jump on board the Win 8 wagon, or you can be patient and wait to see what upgrades MS can do for you.

72.11.2012 8:47
BlllG
Unverified new user

It seems like any change to Windows makes people whine and run for the hills. The new start menu through Metro is just as fast and useful as the old one. I upgraded both of my computers to Windows 8 for $15 / each and I couldn't be happier with it. Remember when people complained Windows 7 was bloated and hogs system resources. Windows 8 leaves a tiny footprint on your hard drive, it uses hardly any ram, and it boots up twice as fast as Windows 7. Instead of jumping on the bandwagon to complain about changes from Windows 7, how about you actually give the OS a shot. Even with a mouse and keyboard I find it very useful and intuitive.

82.11.2012 9:33

More and more it's looking like Microsoft looked at an ipod or android tablet from 4 years ago and said "This! Make it exactly like this! This is what people must want!".

But then didn't pay attention as android and even iOS started developing windows like features;
-sub folders, icon containers that open small windows containing said icons
-a statusbar/notification bar in place of start menu.
-Not to mention droid is years ahead with an army of freelance developers in widgets/gadgets that update and do shit.

They should have stayed with the desktop, it's not a dying market like everyone thinks. Just like the fax machine didn't eliminate paper. People will still want to sit a desk and use something they don't have to hold up all day or fumble with sensitive touchpads/touchscreens/tabkeyboards.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 Nov 2012 @ 9:35

92.11.2012 9:50

Originally posted by Mysttic:
Quote:
I Agree with your point, but I am coming from a developers perspective so cannot afford to Avoid Windows 8.
That's kind of crock right there, for starters there are numerous other OS clients to develop for. Second, look what happened when developers didn't push behind Windows ME and VITA. We ended up with XP and 7. What will we end up with after 8? I can't see the Metro UI going away anytime soon, but MS will definitely make changes to improve the interface over time like they did with their previous OS's. Sure you can jump on board the Win 8 wagon, or you can be patient and wait to see what upgrades MS can do for you.
Please can I come along and skip with you on your fluffy clouds in your perfect world. Sadly the reality is I work for a Microsoft Partner company and we are very much committed to their platform (be that good or bad). We cannot just jump ship to another platform because we don't like Windows 8 as it is today.

As far as ME and "VITA" (Vista) are concerned, these posed a very different issue to Windows 8, Windows 8 is driving forward with a new way of doing things (be it right or wrong) ME and Vista didn't provide anything revolutionary to the product, they just didn't work that well.

102.11.2012 10:38

Originally posted by bloke2000:
Quote:
For example, if you're trying to find a standard built-in Windows program like Notepad you have two choices. Either you switch to the Start screen, change the view to show all the program shortcuts and then click on the Notepad tile or you can use Search from the Charms bar and Windows will drag you to the Start screen automatically
Or you could right click the bottom left of the screen and choose "Run" then type "notepad", you could even pin "Run" to your taskbar, then it is even easier. As a home user I have used Windows and Mac for a long time. I really don't get why people are making such a big deal about Windows 8. Everything can be as easy as you want it to be. People just don't like change.

While it's certainly not a problem for someone like you or me to use the Run dialog that way, to most people it's really not that simple. They simply don't understand enough about the system to even come up with that idea. In fact in the video I bring up the point that in Windows 8 the desktop has become much more of a power user's UI because there are so many things that are much more complicated if you don't have that level of understanding.

I agree that a lot of the objections are from people who just don't want the big change, but personally I've been frustrated by the Start menu for quite a while now and the changes in Windows 8 don't address my concerns at all.

Quote:
And for those that miss their start menu, then download one, there are a few good free ones out there.

I would go even further and suggest that this is also the solution to the Start menu overhaul Windows desperately needs. In fact I would even say that Microsoft has, completely by accident, set in motion exactly the kind of overhaul the desktop GUI has needed for years. By removing the Start menu Microsoft has motivated users to look for a significant third party add-on to enhance the GUI and also a lot more developers to devote time to creating it.

I'm already starting to like Classic Shell's Start menu better than what's built into Windows 7. I can't wait to see where things go next.

Rich Fiscus
@Vurbal on Twitter
AfterDawn Staff Writer

112.11.2012 10:44

I used it and removed it. IT STINKS !!! Slow and Dumb ! Does not allow for nessesary tweaking to get the computer to run correctly. Example: You can't remove transparancy. In Win 8 preview transparancy did not exist. That is why it was so fast. Pass up this garbage. P.S It does not allow you to remove Win 8 and go back to your previous version of windows like older versions. I had an image backup of Win 7 so I was able to go back. So unless you are very computer geeky you are stuck with crappy Win 8 !

122.11.2012 10:56

I can understand people's frustrations, but if you're talking about running an app it's just

Windows key -> Type name of app -> press enter

The complaint can only be the fact that it's pulling you out of your desktop experience just to run an app. That I can understand, the amount of steps required is about the same unless you are trying to get to the control panel or search for a document or image.

132.11.2012 11:02

Quote:
Please can I come along and skip with you on your fluffy clouds in your perfect world. Sadly the reality is I work for a Microsoft Partner company and we are very much committed to their platform (be that good or bad). We cannot just jump ship to another platform because we don't like Windows 8 as it is today.
You don't need to be like that. First you said you were a developer without indicating you are a valued MS Partner, so spare me your holier than thou art attitude. I worked in various tech industries and dealt with MS Partners in both distribution and support; had you simply said you were one of them, I would have worded my comment different.

You have a point about ME and VITA not being revolutionary, be that as it may, even being a valued MS Partner doesn't mean you have to stay on 1 ship, or not cross over. You choose to be an MS partner, others do as well. Other MS Partners clearly stated Windows 8 is not for them; and in the tech business you support where the people go if you want to make $. What you do is your choice, but don't brush it off as you don't have one, you do; but since you choose to ignore it, than sink or swim until the next OS.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 Nov 2012 @ 11:05

142.11.2012 15:05

I installed Windows 8 and within a few hours restored my Windows 7 backup. A lot of things I like in Windows 7 are not in Windows 8, like the Windows XP virtual desktop. I miss Windows Aero and the start orb and the gadgets. I also found start up items where not starting up or I had to go to my desktop to get it to load, for example my logitech G19 keyboard software. I did an upgrade and not a fresh install and it might be due to that I don't know. Settings I know how and where to change are in different spots or you need to do different steps to achieve what I knew how to do before. The "metro" start screen is not that bad as I thought but if I had a choice I would not use it and stick with the start orb/bar.

152.11.2012 15:09

Or you can disregard most of this nonsense that says you can only open Notepad 2 ways: Start menu and "change the view to show all icons" or "use Charm to search".

F that and f everyone that rags meritlessly about this OS! Simply Start and even MORE SIMPLY.......JUST START TYPING ANY PROGRAM YOU WANT.

This article review is totally F.O.S. and those nincompoops that choose to upgrade to 8 and then use a 3rd party crap software to "restore the START button functionality" should simply tuck tail, run and hide and revert back to Windows 7.....or better yet.......go back to XP.

Now....those that keep making up excuses to not like the new OS (especially those that have yet to give it a concerted effort).........PIPE DOWN!

The OS is rather slick, quick and very intuitive and even on my standard laptop, it's easy to find everything with a little tiny bit of effort.

So many "IT pros" and "technically savvy" are lazy as HELL and don't want to learn anything so I say GET THE HECK OUT OF THIS INDUSTRY AND PAY PEOPLE LIKE ME TO WIPE YOUR COMPUTERIZED ARSES.

162.11.2012 15:22

OK, you have that opinion. But for the rest of the world that isn't tech savy how would they know to type "notepad", my grandma still calls it the typewriter program. Or for even more advanced options like changing the screensaver, or finding that program you installed 3 months ago, where will it be on Metro at that point with it's limited "tiles"?

And excuse me because typing more and clicking three times as much is being lazy...

172.11.2012 16:20

Originally posted by hearme0:
Or you can disregard most of this nonsense that says you can only open Notepad 2 ways: Start menu and "change the view to show all icons" or "use Charm to search".

F that and f everyone that rags meritlessly about this OS! Simply Start and even MORE SIMPLY.......JUST START TYPING ANY PROGRAM YOU WANT.

This article review is totally F.O.S. and those nincompoops that choose to upgrade to 8 and then use a 3rd party crap software to "restore the START button functionality" should simply tuck tail, run and hide and revert back to Windows 7.....or better yet.......go back to XP.

Now....those that keep making up excuses to not like the new OS (especially those that have yet to give it a concerted effort).........PIPE DOWN!

The OS is rather slick, quick and very intuitive and even on my standard laptop, it's easy to find everything with a little tiny bit of effort.

So many "IT pros" and "technically savvy" are lazy as HELL and don't want to learn anything so I say GET THE HECK OUT OF THIS INDUSTRY AND PAY PEOPLE LIKE ME TO WIPE YOUR COMPUTERIZED ARSES.
You must work for Microsoft !

182.11.2012 18:07

You must work for Microsoft !


Either that, or he's one of the over 4 million consumers who downloaded Windows 8.

Funny how so many self-proclaimed IT experts struggle so much with Windows 8, but ordinary consumers like myself have had no problems with it and been happy with what we consider an upgrade. (Me and the other 4 million people, that is. Of course, it's probably way over 4 million by now -- 4 million was just the first weekend.)

192.11.2012 18:15

Originally posted by SoTired:
You must work for Microsoft !
Either that, or he's one of the over 4 million consumers who downloaded Windows 8.

Funny how so many self-proclaimed IT experts struggle so much with Windows 8, but ordinary consumers like myself have had no problems with it and been happy with what we consider an upgrade. (Me and the other 4 million people, that is. Of course, it's probably way over 4 million by now -- 4 million was just the first weekend.)
Enjoy It. I hate it !

202.11.2012 18:46

Originally posted by ronhondo:
Originally posted by SoTired:
You must work for Microsoft !
Either that, or he's one of the over 4 million consumers who downloaded Windows 8.

Funny how so many self-proclaimed IT experts struggle so much with Windows 8, but ordinary consumers like myself have had no problems with it and been happy with what we consider an upgrade. (Me and the other 4 million people, that is. Of course, it's probably way over 4 million by now -- 4 million was just the first weekend.)
Enjoy It. I hate it !
I'm not sure why that made me laugh, but it did. (I don't mean that in a bad way.)

Stepping back, I agree with the general principal that we have entered the era of the touch interface. We use touch screens at the grocery store, gas station, ATM, and even on our phone. The only place we don't systematically use them is the one place you would expect to use them -- your desktop/laptop computer. It is baffling that it has taken this long to have an OS that moves desktops/laptops into the touch era. The mouse era is coming to an end.

As with any major change, there will be growing pains. The desktop in particular presents ergonomic challenges -- even if my desktop screen had touch capacity, my screen is too far back to comfortably use that way. And moving it closer would bug out my eyes. But all evolution presents challenges, and hardware manufacturers will solve them.

For those who want to sit back and wait until Microsoft irons out the kinks, the good news is that Windows 7 remains an outstanding solution. But Windows 8 has clearly charted the path of the future, whether people choose to get on board now or prefer to wait for the next version.

212.11.2012 23:51

First off, SoTired, I HAVE used Win8, and quite simply disliked it. Your reasons for liking the OS are yours, and yours alone, just like any opinion is for anyone. You can stop trying to act as if you speak for any kind of vast majority, thenkyew.

Second, the mouse is not going anywhere, simply because M$ made a touchscreen-capable OS. Many people don't care to spend a rather significant bucket of money for a touchscreen monitor, don't want to have to clean greasy fingerprints off their monitor, and furthermore, don't want to reach over their desk/work area to swipe at their monitor when the mouse is right next to their keyboard (as you note yourself). Additionally, touch panels are NOT as accurate as mouse input, and won't be for a while, if ever.

Third, your observation about people waiting for the next version hits the nail squarely on the head. There's no reason, currently, to adopt Win8. None. Not one "killer app" exists for the OS! Why should anyone give up a solid, fast, reliable OS, simply to help M$ debug their crappy interface? You think people want to shell out $360-500+ for a new touchscreen monitor? Or to deal with Win8's silly interface kluges for those who don't have touch panels? Really?!

Your rants re: Win8 are quite amusingly similar to similar diatribes by like-minded people over users' refusal to adopt Vista. Sorry, but people who skipped Vista did the right thing! Win7 is essentially Vista done right, nothing more.

I'll wait for Win9, which will hopefully be Win8 done right.

223.11.2012 2:31

Originally posted by Bozobub:
First off, SoTired, I HAVE used Win8, and quite simply disliked it. Your reasons for liking the OS are yours, and yours alone, just like any opinion is for anyone. You can stop trying to act as if you speak for any kind of vast majority, thenkyew.

Second, the mouse is not going anywhere, simply because M$ made a touchscreen-capable OS. Many people don't care to spend a rather significant bucket of money for a touchscreen monitor, don't want to have to clean greasy fingerprints off their monitor, and furthermore, don't want to reach over their desk/work area to swipe at their monitor when the mouse is right next to their keyboard (as you note yourself). Additionally, touch panels are NOT as accurate as mouse input, and won't be for a while, if ever.

Third, your observation about people waiting for the next version hits the nail squarely on the head. There's no reason, currently, to adopt Win8. None. Not one "killer app" exists for the OS! Why should anyone give up a solid, fast, reliable OS, simply to help M$ debug their crappy interface? You think people want to shell out $360-500+ for a new touchscreen monitor? Or to deal with Win8's silly interface kluges for those who don't have touch panels? Really?!

Your rants re: Win8 are quite amusingly similar to similar diatribes by like-minded people over users' refusal to adopt Vista. Sorry, but people who skipped Vista did the right thing! Win7 is essentially Vista done right, nothing more.

I'll wait for Win9, which will hopefully be Win8 done right.
You don't even see your own hypocrisy?

Your first paragraph chides me for acting as if I speak for others, but your second paragraphs purports to tell us about what "many people don't care" do to. What a joke.

Putting your hypocrisy aside, my feelings are in line with the 4 million people who upgraded to Windows 8 in the first three days after release. No OS in history has had that many people upgrade in the first three days after release. Including Windows 7. You are welcome to live in denial and pretend that Windows 8 will be another Vista. But the sales figures aren't supporting your speculation. (And neither is Microsoft's stock price -- up 5% since the October 26 release date, while Apple's is down 5% despite Apple releasing the iPad Mini. Apparently the analysts are betting that my opinions do, in fact, represent the majority.)

I also got a chuckle at your claim that people don't want to have fingerprints on their monitors, and that people don't like the inaccuracy of touch interface. Apparently you have been living in a cave the last several years. There's this new device called the "tablet" which uses -- gasp -- a touch interface. Complete with fingerprints on the monitor and whatever "inaccuracy" is inherent in the touch interface. None of that seems to bother people. Except you. Which is fine -- it's cute that you to have an opinion and all that. But clearly your opinion is not in line with the rest of the world that has decided touch interfaces are just fine, notwithstanding the problems your describe.

233.11.2012 6:33

I say "many people don't care to spend a rather significant bucket of money for a touchscreen monitor", because many people have said so, including me. Observing that fact is not hypocrisy, bub.

As for the adoption of Windows 8: I'm pretty sure the fact that M$ is offering the OS for $15 has a LOT to do with it, silly boy; it's the cheapest any M$ OS has ever been.

Next, I challenge you to run a CAD program with a touchscreen, just as one example. Go for it. You can go ahead and take "inaccuracy" out of those quotes now =) . The (lack of) ergonomics of reaching out/up to your monitor constantly is no joke, either; if you don't think that's going to cause serious repetitive stress injuries over time, YOU are living in denial.

Furthermore, tablets have a big advantage over desktop monitors, when using (or cleaning!) a touchscreen: It's just plain easier! Don't think so? Try picking up your 24" monitor like you'd hold a tablet, then think again - lol. That's kind of the purpose of a tablet computer, after all.

And last, I'll have you note that I *never* said a touchscreen-capable OS is, itself, a bad thing. I merely maintain that the current, klugey compromise M$ has come up with in Win8 has serious issues, and it DOES. You may feel it necessary to gloss over those issues, but I'll simply wait for the next iteration of the OS, where they're likely to do much better, as has been the pattern for M$ for a long time now.

It's cute that you have an opinion and all that. But clearly your opinion isn't well thought-out. Funny, how your rather condescending line also works so well for me, isn't it?

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Nov 2012 @ 6:34

243.11.2012 8:27

In duplicating Apple's strategies of bloated prices, walled gardens and form over function, I think Microsoft has managed to also duplicate its own Apple-esque flock of zealots. I don't ever recall such passionate defense being mounted for Windows 7, or even Windows Vista for that matter.


253.11.2012 13:21

I have talked to a bunch of devs and alot are not going to touch win 8. they know it wont last long. Keep the tablet os's in the tablet world, why make a tablet os on a pc? you really think big business are going to use windows 8. If they do, they will most likely fall back to vista or 7. or even Linux. ive seen people make a move to linux when vista came out. And they are still using it company wide.

i dont and never will have a use for a tablet, Im a Android fan and big linux fan. I use them both more than i do windows.

windows 8 will be there biggest OS fail.

263.11.2012 15:06

Originally posted by Bozobub:


It's cute that you have an opinion and all that. But clearly your opinion isn't well thought-out. Funny, how your rather condescending line also works so well for me, isn't it?
No, it didn't work for you. When you get out of middle school, someday you'll learn that clever lines in a conversation are only clever the first time. Repeating them after that just reinforces the fact that you can't come up with anything clever on your own so you have to be a parrot. Which is what your opinion is -- regurgitating the sloth that came from a few bloggers before Windows 8 was successfully released.

As for your claim that $15 is the cheapest introductory upgrade offer, your facts are just wrong. Historically, if you bought a new computer within a few months before Microsoft released a new version of Windows, you got a FREE UPGRADE to the next OS. The number of months in the pre-release window varied from 3 to 6 months, but you always got a free upgrade if you bought your computer some number of months before release. Windows 8 is the first time in several generations that Microsoft did not offer a free upgrade -- this time, even if you bought your PC a week before, the upgrade costs $15. (And if you didn't buy it recently, you pay $40.) The math may be hard for you, so I'll spell it out slowly: F R E E is less expensive than $15. Perhaps if you were older than 14, you would remember the history a little better. But the fact that you aren't old enough to remember what happened doesn't justify you in making the facts up as you go.

As for "hypocrisy," you should probably ask one of your teachers what it means, because you are little confused.

The rest of your points are such illogical nonsense that I won't waste my time detailing them. (You suggestion that CAD -- used by less than 1% of computer owners -- is relevant to a discussion about the direction the market is headed is simply laughable.)

273.11.2012 15:29

4 million adoptees of win8 in 3 days after release! last weeks staples' flyer showed all their computers both laptop & desktop had win8 on them, not 1 win7 computer listed for sale.

283.11.2012 15:47

You can get as snarky as you like, SoTired. I can only point out that you are the one who decided to travel down that road, as everyone reading this thread can plainly see. Enjoy.

Furthermore, I know damn well what "hypocrisy" means, and you either used it incorrectly or were just being a condescending fool. Choose one, because stating a bald fact does not equal hypocrisy, no matter how you attempt to bend English. Either way, you fail.

As to your response to my example of CAD drawing with a touch panel, I can only laugh at your attempt to use the fact that I used an example to disprove my point. Need more? How about drawing in general, photography work, video editing, advertising copy, and so on (all tasks that I use PCs for, by the by)? Pretty big slice of the professional market, isn't it? And I can go on. You also still have not addressed the faulty ergonomics of reaching out and up constantly to a touch panel, nor will you be able to.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed your lack of response to most of the points I've brought up; now why would THAT be, I wonder?

And little snarklet, I'm 42. Yes, born in 1970. What's that I hear? Your self-importance deflating like a party balloon popped by the cigarette clutched in your abusive uncle's hairy paw? Aww.. Don't try to get all in a huff, when YOU have been the one insulting people - and not just me, I'll add - and YOU end up looking like a self-satisfied, hairy little troll.

Good day to you.

294.11.2012 1:50

Originally posted by Bozobub:
First off, SoTired, I HAVE used Win8, and quite simply disliked it. Your reasons for liking the OS are yours, and yours alone, just like any opinion is for anyone. You can stop trying to act as if you speak for any kind of vast majority, thenkyew.

Second, the mouse is not going anywhere, simply because M$ made a touchscreen-capable OS. Many people don't care to spend a rather significant bucket of money for a touchscreen monitor, don't want to have to clean greasy fingerprints off their monitor, and furthermore, don't want to reach over their desk/work area to swipe at their monitor when the mouse is right next to their keyboard (as you note yourself). Additionally, touch panels are NOT as accurate as mouse input, and won't be for a while, if ever.

Third, your observation about people waiting for the next version hits the nail squarely on the head. There's no reason, currently, to adopt Win8. None. Not one "killer app" exists for the OS! Why should anyone give up a solid, fast, reliable OS, simply to help M$ debug their crappy interface? You think people want to shell out $360-500+ for a new touchscreen monitor? Or to deal with Win8's silly interface kluges for those who don't have touch panels? Really?!

Your rants re: Win8 are quite amusingly similar to similar diatribes by like-minded people over users' refusal to adopt Vista. Sorry, but people who skipped Vista did the right thing! Win7 is essentially Vista done right, nothing more.

I'll wait for Win9, which will hopefully be Win8 done right.
I completly agree !!

304.11.2012 1:31

@Bozobub: I agree with you, but remember, be gentle. It's clear from this and other threads that the person with whom you're debating is unable to cope with opinions that are not his. He may well be an unfortunate soul who has succumbed to the unyielding will of the Ballmer flock that I spoke of before. We should regard him as a victim and treat him with sympathy. Due to his condition, attempts at logical persuasion and objective discussion will ultimately prove fruitless. Several excerpts above reveal this plainly:

Quote:
For those who want to sit back and wait until Microsoft irons out the kinks, the good news is that Windows 7 remains an outstanding solution. But Windows 8 has clearly charted the path of the future, whether people choose to get on board now or prefer to wait for the next version.
In this statement, the victim uses a give-and-take technique to promote the object of his adoration. He first 'concedes' that the product he's touting may not be for everyone just yet (which any observer can already plainly see), but then uses that concession to elevate the brand to which he's ultimately loyal.

Quote:
Stepping back, I agree with the general principal that we have entered the era of the touch interface.
Here the victim starts his statement with wording that implies objectivity, but immediately proceeds to agree with a comment that has not been made in the discussion. He does so to enforce his perception that he's surrounded by supporters.

Quote:
Apparently you have been living in a cave the last several years. There's this new device called the "tablet" which uses -- gasp -- a touch interface. Complete with fingerprints on the monitor and whatever "inaccuracy" is inherent in the touch interface. None of that seems to bother people. Except you.
In this excerpt, the victim uses sarcasm to imply that his opponent is ignorant of the discussion's subject matter. He then uses that perceived ignorance to fallaciously dismiss any and all criticism his opponent has of the subject. In reality, the victim exposes his own ignorance of (or unwillingness to acknowledge) the subject's shortcomings.

Quote:
But clearly your opinion is not in line with the rest of the world that has decided touch interfaces are just fine, notwithstanding the problems your describe.
Here the victim concludes a post by asserting that "the rest of the world" shares his viewpoint. In reality, the numbers that the victim himself vaunts (whose nature is still in question) only account for about half of one tenth of one percent of "the rest of the world". This is another attempt to enforce his perception of being surrounded by supporters, and is also an attempt to dishearten or shame his opponent into relenting.

Quote:
When you get out of middle school, someday you'll learn that clever lines in a conversation are only clever the first time. Repeating them after that just reinforces the fact that you can't come up with anything clever on your own so you have to be a parrot.
In the above quote, the victim uses a classic "I'm older than you so I know more" attack to try and downplay his opponent's objections. Since the victim actually does not know the age of his opponent, it is clearly not an attempt at objective reasoning, but rather a ruse to trick more naive observers into believing that he actually is more knowledgeable and objective than his opponent. The statement doubles as a childish attempt to goad his opponent down to his level of illogic. (The old adage comes to mind: "Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level and then beat you with experience.")

He then ignores (or pretends not to notice) his opponent's imitative sarcasm, instead claiming that his own [subjective] remarks are too true and insightful to be shared by someone of an opposing viewpoint.

Quote:
The rest of your points are such illogical nonsense that I won't waste my time detailing them.
Here, the victim dismisses all objections for which he has no witty retort, excusing himself by asserting that those objections are nonsensical. In reality, his own bias blinds him to the logic in the statements he's dismissing.


(Of course, he might just be a troll, but I'm trying to be more optimistic about people's intolerance of others' differing opinions.)
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 04 Nov 2012 @ 1:37

314.11.2012 9:56

Oh, dear... Well gutted.

*hands nonoitall a beer*

324.11.2012 22:59

Originally posted by Bozobub:


*hands nonoitall a beer*

You've clearly had your share of beers, judging from the drunken garble you've spewed in this thread.

As for your age, you are old enough to know that your statement about $15 being "cheap" compared to prior upgrades is utter nonsense, and completely dishonest. You were there, you know it was free until Win 8, and yet you claimed otherwise. You were, simply, being dishonest because you know the facts are against you.

Since you have proven that you have no interest in the truth, there's not much point in discussing it with you further.

Enjoy your cave.

334.11.2012 23:19

Originally posted by nonoitall[quote:
But clearly your opinion is not in line with the rest of the world that has decided touch interfaces are just fine, notwithstanding the problems your describe.
Here the victim concludes a post by asserting that "the rest of the world" shares his viewpoint. In reality, the numbers that the victim himself vaunts (whose nature is still in question) only account for about half of one tenth of one percent of "the rest of the world". )
You believe tablets account for only one half of one percent of the market?

Wow, you are even more delusional than the rest of your post would suggest.

Do they have pink unicorns where you live too?

345.11.2012 0:57

No, but we certainly have trolls just like you =) .

355.11.2012 1:15

Originally posted by Bozobub:
No, but we certainly have trolls just like you =) .
OK, that was funny.

Cheers.

365.11.2012 10:48

Originally posted by ronhondo:
Originally posted by Bozobub:
First off, SoTired, I HAVE used Win8, and quite simply disliked it. Your reasons for liking the OS are yours, and yours alone, just like any opinion is for anyone. You can stop trying to act as if you speak for any kind of vast majority, thenkyew.

Second, the mouse is not going anywhere, simply because M$ made a touchscreen-capable OS. Many people don't care to spend a rather significant bucket of money for a touchscreen monitor, don't want to have to clean greasy fingerprints off their monitor, and furthermore, don't want to reach over their desk/work area to swipe at their monitor when the mouse is right next to their keyboard (as you note yourself). Additionally, touch panels are NOT as accurate as mouse input, and won't be for a while, if ever.

Third, your observation about people waiting for the next version hits the nail squarely on the head. There's no reason, currently, to adopt Win8. None. Not one "killer app" exists for the OS! Why should anyone give up a solid, fast, reliable OS, simply to help M$ debug their crappy interface? You think people want to shell out $360-500+ for a new touchscreen monitor? Or to deal with Win8's silly interface kluges for those who don't have touch panels? Really?!

Your rants re: Win8 are quite amusingly similar to similar diatribes by like-minded people over users' refusal to adopt Vista. Sorry, but people who skipped Vista did the right thing! Win7 is essentially Vista done right, nothing more.

I'll wait for Win9, which will hopefully be Win8 done right.
I completly agree !!
Although we have disagreed & ranted, oh so many times, in the past on even the most insignificant issues I must humbly agree with you on this particular case.

I'm not going to race out & invest in another monitor so that I can get the gist of another OS so as to fix my percentage of the 4 million laptops that everyone put Windows 8 on because they don't have 1. have a touch screen on & 2. don't want to take the time to learn it on their own as well.

I.e., forcing me as their surrogate 'Windows 8 for Idiots' in less than 10 minutes as I'm trying to replace another guys lcd screen.

While So Tired has a right to his opinion, it seems to me that he hasn't lived through timeless over & over inceptions of OS' being laid upon the masses from DOS 3.2 to the GUI of the here & now & all the midnight calls and blatherings of self proclaimed lunatic experts telling the real ones everything they know.

I mean, what is this release? 11? 12th OS in the whole scheme of things?

375.11.2012 12:40

12. windows 1, 2, 3, windows 95, 98, me, nt, 2000, xp, vista, 7 & now 8. never mind all the different variants of those windows.

385.11.2012 12:55

Originally posted by ddp:
12. windows 1, 2, 3, windows 95, 98, me, nt, 2000, xp, vista, 7 & now 8. never mind all the different variants of those windows.
What about Windows 98SE, I think I would consider that another notch in MS OS belt.

395.11.2012 13:00

that is why i said "different variants of those windows".

405.11.2012 22:10

There is something terribly wrong with Windows 8 for the desktop PC. I just can't put my finger on it.



--pcdtv--

415.11.2012 22:26

Originally posted by rking_ad:
There is something terribly wrong with Windows 8 for the desktop PC. I just can't put my finger on it.


*rimshot*

428.11.2012 7:38

anyone wanting to use the old GUI should just download and install ClassicShell.

The new start window is still available with the use of the windows key or putting the cursor into the top right corner and selecting it; press escape to return to ClassicShell.

No muss, no fuss, and you still get the speed improvements of the new OS.

It's also FREE.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 08 Nov 2012 @ 9:44

438.11.2012 8:14

I just bit the bullet yesterday and did an in-place upgrade to Windows 8 and just to cover my a$$ did two complete images of my current Windows 7 partition. As soon as the upgrade was finished I installed Stardock's Start 8, a $4.99 program that restores the start menu functionality and a freebie called Metro Controller, which removes the Metro interface. Now, after I log in I'm taken to my old familiar desktop with the start menu intact. Now, if I could only get rid of that awful Seattle skyline pre-login wallpaper I'd be satisfied.


IT Consultant
Pedal Steel Guitarist

448.11.2012 8:35

Windows 8 avoids the very reason Windows was a success in the beginning. To get to where you wish to be, you have to close down too many unnecessary features. I just reinstalled Win 7 to get back. Oh, I am using Vista now because of the age of the Laptop. I have WIndows 7 on my desktop and did have it on the laptop. At any rate, both are more user friendly than WIndows 8. Who needs any those new features anyway.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 08 Nov 2012 @ 8:37

458.11.2012 8:41

Originally posted by Nosredneh:
Windows 8 avoids the very reason Windows was a success in the beginning. To get to where you wish to be, you have to close down too many unnecessary features. I just reinstalled Win 7 to get back. Oh, I am using Vista now because of the age of the Laptop. I have WIndows 7 on my desktop and did have it on the laptop. At any rate, both are more user friendly than WIndows 8. Who needs any those new features anyway.
I agree, but I was having some issues with Win 7 that an in-place repair upgrade didn't completely solve, coupled with the fact that MS isn't going to be issuing any additional service packs for Win 7; rather they will be sending out individual patches. I suspect that they want to end it's "life cycle" as soon as they can.

IT Consultant
Pedal Steel Guitarist

468.11.2012 13:48

The reason I use the mouse is that I am too lazy to use my fingers. Now the whole thing is being reversed in WIdows 8. I spent a few years with Commodore products that required command line entries and was happy to switch to a truly mouse system with WIndows 95. Don't get me wrong. In many ways, the Commodore machines were superior to PC's in simplicity and power but were limited in computer resources and required a little knowledge to opererate.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 08 Nov 2012 @ 13:50

478.11.2012 15:23

Originally posted by SoTired:
Originally posted by ronhondo:
Originally posted by SoTired:
You must work for Microsoft !
Either that, or he's one of the over 4 million consumers who downloaded Windows 8.

Funny how so many self-proclaimed IT experts struggle so much with Windows 8, but ordinary consumers like myself have had no problems with it and been happy with what we consider an upgrade. (Me and the other 4 million people, that is. Of course, it's probably way over 4 million by now -- 4 million was just the first weekend.)
Enjoy It. I hate it !
I'm not sure why that made me laugh, but it did. (I don't mean that in a bad way.)

Stepping back, I agree with the general principal that we have entered the era of the touch interface. We use touch screens at the grocery store, gas station, ATM, and even on our phone. The only place we don't systematically use them is the one place you would expect to use them -- your desktop/laptop computer. It is baffling that it has taken this long to have an OS that moves desktops/laptops into the touch era. The mouse era is coming to an end.

As with any major change, there will be growing pains. The desktop in particular presents ergonomic challenges -- even if my desktop screen had touch capacity, my screen is too far back to comfortably use that way. And moving it closer would bug out my eyes. But all evolution presents challenges, and hardware manufacturers will solve them.

For those who want to sit back and wait until Microsoft irons out the kinks, the good news is that Windows 7 remains an outstanding solution. But Windows 8 has clearly charted the path of the future, whether people choose to get on board now or prefer to wait for the next version.
The era of the mouse is dead????

Try designing a new product or working in 3D animation or creating an STL file for computer controlled machining. Unless you work in a 'Gumby world', a mouse or a tablet is needed.....

488.11.2012 17:24

^Pretty much this. I have no problems with the actual improvements WIn8 brings to the table, but until/unless I acquire a touch panel, there's no particular reason to go through the trouble to "upgrade", especially when I'd have to go through a customization process to make the damn thing usable for me.

498.11.2012 18:51

Windows 8 is not difficult just too much a retired home user just does not need. So when necessary I will make the jump but for now I will wait.

508.11.2012 19:09

As a professional artist/designer/developer, I would have to consider these two simple questions.

1) Can a simplified interface, that is about as precise as poking the eyes of mice out, with the thick end of a baseball bat, replace the precision of a mouse, keyboard and Wacom Intuos tablet?

2) If the core of my work requires precision, what place is there in my workflow, for a finger based OS?

The answers, are 1) No and 2) None. Which begs the question, given the large number of "professionals" in the world, is this the first ever specifically consumer oriented OS from Microsoft? If I wanted a touch based device for my creativity, I'd already have a Wacom Cintiq. If the sole task of my PC was productivity, why on earth would I want to have a screen full of tiles, that do nothing but show irrelevant distractions?

I can't help but feel, that Microsoft should have gone in two directions with Windows 8. Consumer oriented Metro interface, and professional oriented dektop interface. They've been doing Pro/Consumer versions for years, this would have been the time to really define the line between the two. But that's just the opinion of someone that does more with their PC, than prod glass, and watch pretty pictures go by.

And I would just add, that I am planning on getting a Surface tablet, as a "consumption" device, that will also run my own, personally developed software. That old saying comes to mind... "right tool for the job".

518.11.2012 22:12

I completely agree, LeeC22; making two more distinct versions of Win8 would have made a LOT of sense. In fact, it makes so much sense, I get the feeling that's how Win9 will pan out, in the end...

There are so damn many applications that simply preclude using a touch panel, as you, I, and others have already noted. Yet, in Win8 you have the dichotomy of using a mouse (or Wacom tablet or light pen or...etc.) AND touch-screen interface that grudgingly - if at all - acknowledges your preference for the alternative input. Ugh!

All they really would have to do to redeem Win8 in my eyes is to make the interface kluges supporting touch panels completely optional, without having to install external hardware. Sure, keep that touch layer available, but only *IF* the user wants it.

529.11.2012 11:22

Let's face it. A touch screen environment belongs in only two places in an active dispaly setting and a tablet on the go setting. In a classroom, in a boardroom, in a newsroom, the user is up and moving and needs this tool. An on the go user may need speed to react properly. These are the only places that seem useful.

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