Microsoft hit with $730 million fine in EU over default browser choice screen

Ugh! The European Commission are such big babies. Why do they not make Apple do the same with browser choice? Or any other OS for that matter. I wonder if they complain that no one really downloads Opera... They probably blame Microsoft for that too.

Originally posted by bobiroc:

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Ugh! The European Commission are such big babies. Why do they not make Apple do the same with browser choice? Or any other OS for that matter. I wonder if they complain that no one really downloads Opera... They probably blame Microsoft for that too.

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Windows: 92% market share
Mac: 7%
Others: 1%

That's why.

Originally posted by DVDBack23:

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Originally posted by bobiroc:

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Ugh! The European Commission are such big babies. Why do they not make Apple do the same with browser choice? Or any other OS for that matter. I wonder if they complain that no one really downloads Opera... They probably blame Microsoft for that too.

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Windows: 92% market share
Mac: 7%
Others: 1%

That's why.

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Big deal.. This whole marketshare crap is old. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If the EC was so concerned about fairness and ethical competition they would make the rules the same for everyone that makes and operating system. Do they put the same ridiculous restrictions on products in other markets that have a high marketshare?

Originally posted by bobiroc:

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Big deal.. This whole marketshare crap is old. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If the EC was so concerned about fairness and ethical competition they would make the rules the same for everyone that makes and operating system. Do they put the same ridiculous restrictions on products in other markets that have a high marketshare?

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Yes, they do. EC is very progressive and pro-consumer.

Originally posted by DVDBack23:

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Yes, they do. EC is very progressive and pro-consumer.

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They are pro-European companies and seem to find bogus reasons to attack companies that are not from Europe. If they were so pro-consumer they would make the rules the same across the board no matter how much a company sells their products. That is what is fair.

Originally posted by bobiroc:

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Ugh! The European Commission are such big babies. Why do they not make Apple do the same with browser choice? Or any other OS for that matter. I wonder if they complain that no one really downloads Opera... They probably blame Microsoft for that too.

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Seriously, what a joke this fine/law is. If you don't like IE you know how to change it when you install Windows! You don't need government intervention to baby sit you through this process.

So....Europe fines Sony less than $400,000 for millions of stolen personal data and credit card info, but fines Microsoft almost three quarters of a million because people can't take a few minutes to install their favorite browser after setup? What a world. -_-

Originally posted by bobiroc:

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Ugh! The European Commission are such big babies. Why do they not make Apple do the same with browser choice? Or any other OS for that matter. I wonder if they complain that no one really downloads Opera... They probably blame Microsoft for that too.

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Funny you should bring up Opera. It's my default browser. I love it.

Originally posted by Element6643:

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So....Europe fines Sony less than $400,000 for millions of stolen personal data and credit card info, but fines Microsoft almost three quarters of a million because people can't take a few minutes to install their favorite browser after setup? What a world. -_-

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Exactly my point. They are revengeful and spiteful. Don't get me wrong if Microsoft was forced to agree to this browser choice on install then they should comply by it but the fine is ridiculous.

Originally posted by bobiroc:

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Originally posted by DVDBack23:

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Originally posted by bobiroc:

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Ugh! The European Commission are such big babies. Why do they not make Apple do the same with browser choice? Or any other OS for that matter. I wonder if they complain that no one really downloads Opera... They probably blame Microsoft for that too.

---

Windows: 92% market share
Mac: 7%
Others: 1%

That's why.

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Big deal.. This whole marketshare crap is old. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If the EC was so concerned about fairness and ethical competition they would make the rules the same for everyone that makes and operating system....

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I have to agree with Bobi, Apple should comply too. They also claim their software products are the acme of their type, so naturally offering a choice would conflict with that image. With their rampant sponsorship of TV and movies Apple give the impression they are ubiquitous (everywhere that's cool at least).

Most Linuz OSs offer a choice as far as I know.

Originally posted by Element6643:

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So....Europe fines Sony less than $400,000 for millions of stolen personal data and credit card info, but fines Microsoft almost three quarters of a million because people can't take a few minutes to install their favorite browser after setup? What a world. -_-

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Funny, I read three quarters of a BILLION! And I have no doubt they will contest the amount.

Good thing they don't advertise MSE. :)



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And what about a browser choice in mobile operating systems, too? Maybe there is no need of anything because if you don't like the default one you can download any other one easily and for free? Exactly the same happens with MSIE and its competitors, but Microsoft is the only one fined here. The whole thing is a complete nonsense.

Originally posted by dali:

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Exactly the same happens with MSIE and its competitors, but Microsoft is the only one fined here. The whole thing is a complete nonsense.

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Apparently it is anti-competitive for Microsoft to include their own branded browser with their operating system but perfectly OK for other Operating System makers to include their own branded browser.

To me that is like punishing or restricting a certain race or ethic background of people simply because there are more of them but allowing the minority races or ethic background people extra freedoms. Of course that happens too

Originally posted by bobiroc:

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Apparently it is anti-competitive for Microsoft to include their own branded browser with their operating system but perfectly OK for other Operating System makers to include their own branded browser.

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Yes, but the browser is not the only tool included in the operating system environment. What about the notepad, the media player, and the calculator, for instance? Should Microsoft provide a screen for each of those apps to make the customer's choice easier, too? (My question is retorical, of course; my guess is that you share my opinion on this matter).

Originally posted by bobiroc:

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To me that is like punishing or restricting a certain race or ethic background of people simply because there are more of them but allowing the minority races or ethic background people extra freedoms. Of course that happens too

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Agreed. Such thing is called "positive discrimination", although discrimination is never positive by definition, is it?

Originally posted by dali:

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Yes, but the browser is not the only tool included in the operating system environment. What about the notepad, the media player, and the calculator, for instance? Should Microsoft provide a screen for each of those apps to make the customer's choice easier, too? (My question is retorical, of course; my guess is that you share my opinion on this matter).

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I guess I think of it this way. When you buy a computer or an operating system (including free ones) it should give you the basic tools to do your computing out of the box and to me that includes internet browsing, playing videos, basic note taking/document creation and other basic applications. It is not unfair for the maker of that Operating system to include their own tools just like it is not unfair for other industries to include their own equipment/features in their branded products. It would be unfair if the maker of that operating system prevented the installation of other tools such as an alternative browser or media player etc.. This is not happening and has not happened.

Adding this extra step just adds a layer of confusion to the users and is unnecessary. Alternative browsers and applications are abundantly available and it is not the fault of Microsoft or any other company for the ignorant people that do not know about them. The EC might think they are trying to protect those ignorant people by offering a choice but in reality they are making things harder on the consumer that just wants to use their computer or product they purchased.

M$ did NOT lose the initial case in the EU because they include their own browser with Windows. They lost because IE enjoys extra integration with the OS and other Windows programs, that other browsers are denied; it's not directly about the market share of the other browsers. Remember when M$ used to insist that it was impossible to remove IE from Windows (which turned out to be utter hogwash)?

The fine is not unjustified in this case. M$ is being heavily fined because they chose to ignore the initial court ruling, just as would be the case in any country. Does anyone here imagine a US court being amused by a corporation, especially a foreign corporation, ignoring a court ruling? If you do, you're just plain silly.

All of the arguments about the original ruling you guys have brought up in this thread actually came up during the court case. M$ lost, it's that simple, and they got caught trying to pretend they didn't. Sob, sob, weep, weep, suck it up, M$. Whether or not you agree with a specific court ruling, it's a court ruling, and trying to ignore it out of existence is going to — quite obviously — cost you. An individual would be in jail.

Edit —> I should mention that I also have reservations about the initial ruling. That doesn't change the fact that M$ screwed the pooch on this one (and they actually admit it).

Originally posted by Bozobub:

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M$ did NOT lose the initial case in the EU because they include their own browser with Windows. They lost because IE enjoys extra integration with the OS and other Windows programs, that other browsers are denied...

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You make some good points. E.g. IE integrates with MSE I think. And it's true, the ruling may be unfair in respect to other OSs but they ignored it and are effectively in contempt. That's reflected in the fine's amount which I'm certain MS will contest anyway even though they admit to being at fault.

Originally posted by dali:

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Originally posted by bobiroc:

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To me that is like punishing or restricting a certain race or ethic background of people simply because there are more of them but allowing the minority races or ethic background people extra freedoms. Of course that happens too

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Agreed. Such thing is called "positive discrimination", although discrimination is never positive by definition, is it?

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I sympathised with your other points but these remarks are fatuous.

I think it's about time Microsoft said "stuff you EU, we're no longer going to sell our OS in your countries.".

I seriously cannot understand why they continue to bow to the pressure, of a collection of retarded EU officials, that couldn't organise the proverbial p*** up in a brewery. They should pull the OS from the EU completely, and simply sell the OS from the US, where the EU has absolutely no control.

Block the installation on all new PCs too. Let's see how popular the EU is, when people struggle to even get their PC up and running in the first place.

Originally posted by LeeC22:

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I think it's about time Microsoft said "stuff you EU, we're no longer going to sell our OS in your countries.".

I seriously cannot understand why they continue to bow to the pressure, of a collection of retarded EU officials, that couldn't organise the proverbial p*** up in a brewery. They should pull the OS from the EU completely, and simply sell the OS from the US, where the EU has absolutely no control.

Block the installation on all new PCs too. Let's see how popular the EU is, when people struggle to even get their PC up and running in the first place.

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I don't think "going Galt" would impress the makers of the PCs here. There might be a few extra lawsuits to come out of that lol.

Originally posted by LeeC22:

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I think it's about time Microsoft said "stuff you EU, we're no longer going to sell our OS in your countries.".

I seriously cannot understand why they continue to bow to the pressure, of a collection of retarded EU officials, that couldn't organise the proverbial p*** up in a brewery. They should pull the OS from the EU completely, and simply sell the OS from the US, where the EU has absolutely no control.

Block the installation on all new PCs too. Let's see how popular the EU is, when people struggle to even get their PC up and running in the first place.

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Any M$ executive who permitted the *complete* loss of one of the largest, richest markets on Earth (that, unlike China, generally does not pirate Windows/Office/etc.) would be rent asunder by enraged stockholders, if the rest of M$ didn't nail 'em first. It would be a phenomenal blunder.

Additionally, such a move would be almost guaranteed to bring further sanctions vs. M$. You think the US gov't. is going to be happy with M$ starting a trade war..?

Originally posted by LeeC22:

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I think it's about time Microsoft said "stuff you EU, we're no longer going to sell our OS in your countries.".

I seriously cannot understand why they continue to bow to the pressure, of a collection of retarded EU officials, that couldn't organise the proverbial p*** up in a brewery. They should pull the OS from the EU completely, and simply sell the OS from the US, where the EU has absolutely no control.

Block the installation on all new PCs too. Let's see how popular the EU is, when people struggle to even get their PC up and running in the first place.

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Actually, they should remove EVERY little added piece that isn't required for Windows to operate and sell it as Windows EU at the SAME PRICE and only allow that version to be sold in all countries covered by the EU. Remove the calculator, IE, games, extra fonts, screensavers, backgrounds, media center, media player, movie maker, photo gallery, dvd maker, etc. Then sell ALL these items as individual ADD ON'S at an additional cost!

Screw the EU.

Like I said, that's really gonna impress the manufactures of the PC hardware... not!

Originally posted by bobiroc:

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Originally posted by Element6643:

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So....Europe fines Sony less than $400,000 for millions of stolen personal data and credit card info, but fines Microsoft almost three quarters of a million because people can't take a few minutes to install their favorite browser after setup? What a world. -_-

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Exactly my point. They are revengeful and spiteful. Don't get me wrong if Microsoft was forced to agree to this browser choice on install then they should comply by it but the fine is ridiculous.

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So what your saying is if someone is forced to agree to something they should follow through with it. But if they fail to follow through just let it go?

You sir are an idiot if you think people can break a contract and get to walk away with no repercussions.

Originally posted by 19877891:

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Originally posted by bobiroc:

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Originally posted by Element6643:

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So....Europe fines Sony less than $400,000 for millions of stolen personal data and credit card info, but fines Microsoft almost three quarters of a million because people can't take a few minutes to install their favorite browser after setup? What a world. -_-

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Exactly my point. They are revengeful and spiteful. Don't get me wrong if Microsoft was forced to agree to this browser choice on install then they should comply by it but the fine is ridiculous.

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So what your saying is if someone is forced to agree to something they should follow through with it. But if they fail to follow through just let it go?

You sir are an idiot if you think people can break a contract and get to walk away with no repercussions.

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But they will contest the amount of the fine as being unfair... you wait.

Actually, no, M$ has directly stated they are not contesting the fine in any way. Even in the article here, it states:

Quote:

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Microsoft, for its part, did not make any excuses and will not appeal the ruling {my emphasis - Bozo}:

We take full responsibility for the technical error that caused this problem and have apologized for it. We provided the Commission with a complete and candid assessment of the situation, and we have taken steps to strengthen our software development and other processes to help avoid this mistake – or anything similar – in the future.

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Other sources online (very easily googled) say pretty much the same thing.

Originally posted by Bozobub:

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Actually, no, M$ has directly stated they are not contesting the fine in any way. Even in the article here, it states:

Quote:

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Microsoft, for its part, did not make any excuses and will not appeal the ruling {my emphasis - Bozo}:

We take full responsibility for the technical error that caused this problem and have apologized for it. We provided the Commission with a complete and candid assessment of the situation, and we have taken steps to strengthen our software development and other processes to help avoid this mistake – or anything similar – in the future.

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Other sources online (very easily googled) say pretty much the same thing.

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FFS!!! I did NOT say they were contesting the flipping fine just the flipping AMOUNT.

Please read more carefully. They do not state they will not contest it "in any way".

This is done ALL the time Bozobub, see the recent Apple vs Samsung cases :/

Contesting the amount = contesting the fine. Relax. Syntax is often unclear like that.

While M$ doesn't specifically state such here, they certainly do clearly say so in their press releases re: this very subject, hence the reference to Google (there's a LOT of hits). M$ very directly states they are not interested in any further litigation on this matter. Appealing the fine (whether the fine's existence itself or its amount) = litigation; there's no other mechanism that can affect the fine but an appeal in court.

In the Apple vs. Samsung case, neither party has ever declined — either in statement or in action — to litigate the matter. I don't see the contradiction.

Edit —> I actually believe M$ on this one. I think that leaving out the "browser choice screen" in Win7 SP1 was a legitimate oversight, and bureaucratic inertia let it snowball into this fine. Knowing this, M$ is trying its best to not further offend a court that has already shown distinct hostility toward the company in the past. The EU is simply too large and rich a market for M$ to risk rocking the boat too much.

Originally posted by DVDBack23:

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Originally posted by bobiroc:

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Ugh! The European Commission are such big babies. Why do they not make Apple do the same with browser choice? Or any other OS for that matter. I wonder if they complain that no one really downloads Opera... They probably blame Microsoft for that too.

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Windows: 92% market share
Mac: 7%
Others: 1%

That's why.

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It seems some people need to sit down & think about the whole 'anti competitive practice' thing.
Market share is fundamental to the ability of a company to abuse it's dominant position.
Hence the reason why bringing up Apple is utterly irrelevant & a ridiculous distraction in this matter.

The fact is, whether you like it or not, Microsoft had agreed to comply anyway.
Then they er, forgot, to continue doing it.

This isn't anti non-EU companies either.
You have to ignorant of these rulings in the past to try to say that.
EU companies have to comply also.
Telefonica has been found guilty & fined for instance, Deutsche Telecom likewise, when screen makers were fined Philips was also fined as part of the group caught out.

19877891, watch the name calling as will NOT be tolerated on this site as per forum rules.
6. No foul language, insults, personal attacks or otherwise rude messages.
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487

Exactly, Interestx. M$ wants this whole embarrassing matter to just go away ^^' .

Originally posted by Bozobub:

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Contesting the amount = contesting the fine.

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No it doesn't... I come from a family of lawyers.

Yes it does; we weren't speaking in a legal context (in other words, while about a subject of law, not IN legal language), which uses very specific meanings and grammar for that's very distinct from common speech; having a family of lawyers will do you no good in this case. So there =) .

Whatever LOL

Originally posted by Interestx:

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Originally posted by DVDBack23:

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Originally posted by bobiroc:

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Ugh! The European Commission are such big babies. Why do they not make Apple do the same with browser choice? Or any other OS for that matter. I wonder if they complain that no one really downloads Opera... They probably blame Microsoft for that too.

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Windows: 92% market share
Mac: 7%
Others: 1%

That's why.

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It seems some people need to sit down & think about the whole 'anti competitive practice' thing.
Market share is fundamental to the ability of a company to abuse it's dominant position.
Hence the reason why bringing up Apple is utterly irrelevant & a ridiculous distraction in this matter.

The fact is, whether you like it or not, Microsoft had agreed to comply anyway.
Then they er, forgot, to continue doing it.

This isn't anti non-EU companies either.
You have to ignorant of these rulings in the past to try to say that.
EU companies have to comply also.
Telefonica has been found guilty & fined for instance, Deutsche Telecom likewise, when screen makers were fined Philips was also fined as part of the group caught out.

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But if this is all about the Browser then it is apparent that people are making a choice as Chrome is pretty much neck and neck with IE. Either that or people are getting preyed upon being forced to install Google Chrome and Google's awful toolbar when they install other softwares because of the automatic opt in on such things.

Windows has a high Market share because that is what OEMs choose to put on their systems and they choose that because that is what most software developers choose to write software for and it is what most people want. Many OEMs offered some form of Linux and nobody wanted it and MacOS can only be used if you buy an Apple branded computers.

@ boboiroc

You're trying to argue on the basis of different (current) data.
Things were even worse before this ruling was made and secondly Chrome is not "neck & neck with IE", it has way over 50% of the market alone.
Chrome has less than 20%

(Afterdawn report 3rd Feb 2013)

Arguing about why Windows OS has a high market share is also completely besides the point.

Still, at least it looks like (from your reply) you've given up that ridiculous & dreadfully ill-informed stance that this is somehow anti non-EU & pro-EU country stuff.

Originally posted by Interestx:

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@ boboiroc

You're trying to argue on the basis of different (current) data.
Things were even worse before this ruling was made and secondly Chrome is not "neck & neck with IE", it has way over 50% of the market alone.
Chrome has less than 20%

(Afterdawn report 3rd Feb 2013)

Arguing about why Windows OS has a high market share is also completely besides the point.

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I did a quick search for the top browsers and came up with this
http://gs.statcounter.com/

I also think the "why" is very important because much of the marketshare has to do with choice that people make and the facts on what the software works with. Maybe the EU should demand that software vendors publish the software titles to other Operating Systems too.

Originally posted by bobiroc:

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I did a quick search for the top browsers and came up with this
http://gs.statcounter.com/

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Well, couple of things, firstly I'll take Afterdawn over anything randomly pulled off of the net and secondly does this relate to the EU?

The EU are only interested in an abuse of market dominance within the EU, if anyone else is happy to put up with it that's their look out.

Originally posted by bobiroc:

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I also think the "why" is very important

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Well we all have opinions.
Sadly in this instance it is simply not relevant.

The issue is one of abuse of market dominance and they were found to be abusing their position.

The fact that they had a huge market share is, ultimately, irrelevant - contrary to what some supporters of Microsoft would have people believe.
It is a distraction, the EU is not anti successful companies, either within or without the EU.
What they will not get away with is killing off the competitive market within the EU as that is - as far as we in the EU are concerned - anti the consumer's best intersts.

Anyone else attaining such a share & behaving similarly would face the same action.

Originally posted by bobiroc:

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Maybe the EU should demand that software vendors publish the software titles to other Operating Systems too.

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Again, this is just irrelent & pointless.

The whole point about Microsoft's behaviour with IE in this was the way IE was incorporated into Windows in a way other browsers could never be.

Originally posted by Interestx:

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Originally posted by bobiroc:

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I did a quick search for the top browsers and came up with this
http://gs.statcounter.com/

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Well, couple of things, firstly I'll take Afterdawn over anything randomly pulled off of the net and secondly does this relate to the EU?

The EU are only interested in an abuse of market dominance within the EU, if anyone else is happy to put up with it that's their look out.

Originally posted by bobiroc:

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I also think the "why" is very important

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Well we all have opinions.
Sadly in this instance it is simply not relevant.

The issue is one of abuse of market dominance and they were found to be abusing their position.

The fact that they had a huge market share is irrelevant - contrary to what some supporters of Microsoft would have people believe.
It is a distraction, the EU is not anti successful companies, either within or without the EU.
What they will not get away with is killing off the competitive market within the EU as that is - as far as we in the EU are concerned - anti the consumer's best intersts.

Originally posted by bobiroc:

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Maybe the EU should demand that software vendors publish the software titles to other Operating Systems too.

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Again, this is just irrelent & pointless.

The whole point about Microsoft's behaviour with IE in this was the way IE was incorporated into Windows in a way other browsers could never be.

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I am sorry you see it as pointless but I fail to see how people are expected to use an operating system that does not work with the software or hardware they want or need to use. That directly affects the marketshare which the EU seems upset about.

Lastly Statcounter gets their data from computers connected to the net from many various sources. Just shows how data can vary from site to site I suppose.

Originally posted by bobiroc:

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I am sorry you see it as pointless but I fail to see how people are expected to use an operating system that does not work with the software or hardware they want or need to use. That directly affects the marketshare which the EU seems upset about.

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You really are chasing a red herring here.

Market share is relevant only to the point where a company may begin to abuse their market dominance.

The fact that they have that share is not the issue.

The EU are not and never have been "upset" about Microsoft's market share.

They did get "upset" about the way Microsoft incorporated its IE browser into Windows in a way nobody else's product could be thus giving IE (and Microsoft) an advantage which nobody else could have.

That's it right there and it is incontestable, hence Microsoft lost the case & were fined.

What I am sorry about is that so many Americans seem to ignore this & have decided - against the facts - that this is anti non-EU companies and that they seem incapable of understanding the anti-competitive edge Microsoft gave itself by incorporating IE into Windows in the manner it did.

The truth is Microsoft could have had 100% market share & the EU would not have cared - so long as they do not try to give themselves unfair advantages like this.

Originally posted by bobiroc:

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Lastly Statcounter gets their data from computers connected to the net from many various sources. Just shows how data can vary from site to site I suppose.

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Indeed.
The internet can often be used to 'prove' conflicting views.

Originally posted by Interestx:

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The internet can often be used to 'prove' conflicting views.

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So can most statistics, especially if you abuse (intentionally or not) statistical laws. Perfect example: Both sides of the global warming debate.

Again, I have to ask anyone who thinks this fine is unjustified, what they think a US court would do if a foreign company "forgot" to comply with a ruling like M$ did here? Do you really think it would all be happy fun and games..?!

Whether or not you agree with the first court ruling vs. M$ is immaterial; M$ is quite obviously in legal jeopardy because they neglected to fully comply with a court order, and they are going to pay for it one way or the other. This would be the case in ANY country where the rule of law still exists; the fine is not some kind of "out of the blue" attack.

In the matter of the initial ruling, M$ pretty much shot themselves right in the collective foot when they claimed IE was "impossible" to remove from Windows. If true, this meant IE, by definition, enjoyed extra integration with the OS, one of the primary arguments against M$. And it was even shown to be untrue, later! So their argument not only handily shot down their own legal case, it wasn't even true >.<' . Brilliant!

There's more than one reason M$ is simply paying the fine, and wishes this case would just go away. They didn't handle this well at all.

Right, 3/4 of a billion lol.