Amazon sees record orders for HD Planet Earth

didn't see that coming at all :/

They lied about selling 100,000 copies of Casino Royale (it was actually 30k in the USA & 10k in the UK) & the BD sales numbers were boosted by things like 7 x $10 money off vouchers in each US PS3 sold.
(btw nobodies' freebie discs count on Neilson - once they had corrected the original figures which did count BD give-aways initially)

Things are begining to balance out again as most PS3s get used primarily for games (now some games have started to appear).

HD-DVD stand-alones continue to sell very well in comparison to BD stand-alones
(.....and this is not counting XBox 360 HD-DVD add-ons or PC drives they have just broken the 100,000th sale in the USA alone - see other thread here - http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/9449.cfm ).

For the last month various 'charts' ( eg DVD Empire, Amazon & Neilson) are now showing HD-DVD disc sales have now closed the gap on BD sales.

It should be remembered that both formats currently sell in such small numbers that any big titles can skew the numbers.

But claims that 'the war is won' are revealed as the ludicrous PR nonsense they always were.

Originally posted by hughjars:

---

They lied about selling 100,000 copies of Casino Royale (it was actually 30k in the USA & 10k in the UK) & the BD sales numbers were boosted by things like 7 x $10 money off vouchers in each US PS3 sold.
(btw nobodies' freebie discs count on Neilson - once they had corrected the original figures which did count BD give-aways initially)

Things are begining to balance out again as most PS3s get used primarily for games (now some games have started to appear).

HD-DVD stand-alones continue to sell very well in comparison to BD stand-alones
(.....and this is not counting XBox 360 HD-DVD add-ons or PC drives they have just broken the 100,000th sale in the USA alone - see other thread here - http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/9449.cfm ).

For the last month various 'charts' ( eg DVD Empire, Amazon & Neilson) are now showing HD-DVD disc sales have now closed the gap on BD sales.

It should be remembered that both formats currently sell in such small numbers that any big titles can skew the numbers.

But claims that 'the war is won' are revealed as the ludicrous PR nonsense they always were.

---

------------------------------------------------------------------------
with player goign to be under 250 by the end of the year HDVD is makin headway if BR refuses to match price they'll be gone by 09.

Cant wait for these to come out, these will definitely be something to add for the collection. :)

Looks like it may be time to invest in another Maxtor Proline 500 gig drive..

This could be on the back end of the whole climate change and global warming factor. Which i think is a good thing if it makes people aware of the issues that the world is facing today. The only thing we need to do now is so some action towards it.

Having seen how good Planet Earth looks in HD, I can guarantee this will be a must-buy for a lot of people.

The reason there were so many sales of this disk from Amazon is because HDDVD sites coordinated a buy strictly on Amazon for the sole purpose of making it look like HDDVD was posing a comeback. The spike lasted about a day and a half.

Source:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=818991

Actually HD-DVD has regained the sales lead on 3 charts during the last month.

Quite clearly the PS3 effect is not working out to be anything like as great as some thought.

Considering the number of PS3s compared to HD-DVD players for BD movie sales to be anything between the peak of 4:1, 3:1, 2:1, evens or now trailing is not what anyone in their right mind should be calling 'good'.

The truth remains PS3 did not trigger an avalanche of BD movie sales and claims that this so-called 'war' has been 'won' are just laughable delusion.

As HD-DVD stand-alone sales continue to rise as prices fall ever lower this levelling of sales ought to be no great surprise......something that will only continue for the rest of the year, $200 Toshiba HD A2 by X-mas and 3 new $125 - $150 Chinese brand HD-DVD players?.

Originally posted by hughjars:

---

They lied about selling 100,000 copies of Casino Royale (it was actually 30k in the USA & 10k in the UK) & the BD sales numbers were boosted by things like 7 x $10 money off vouchers in each US PS3 sold.

...snip...

(But claims that 'the war is won' are revealed as the ludicrous PR nonsense they always were.

---

Sony claimed that 100,000 copies of CASINO ROYALE were shipped, not sold. Of course, I could ship a million copies of gizmo X and if only 2,000 of them sell at retail, that's not a good thing. CASINO ROYALE is clearly a big HD success, but Sony's PR guys are trumping things up via semantics.

Originally posted by hughjars:

---

Actually HD-DVD has regained the sales lead on 3 charts during the last month.

Quite clearly the PS3 effect is not working out to be anything like as great as some thought.

Considering the number of PS3s compared to HD-DVD players for BD movie sales to be anything between the peak of 4:1, 3:1, 2:1, evens or now trailing is not what anyone in their right mind should be calling 'good'.

---

I'm not seeing this on any charts, and last I looked, BR still led on Amazon, with the exception of the 1-day spike due to the organized buy of HD-DVDs on HD-DVD's 1-year anniversary.

Do you have any links to these three charts? Respectfully, I don't believe they exist.

Originally posted by hughjars:

---

As HD-DVD stand-alone sales continue to rise as prices fall ever lower this levelling of sales ought to be no great surprise......something that will only continue for the rest of the year, $200 Toshiba HD A2 by X-mas and 3 new $125 - $150 Chinese brand HD-DVD players?.

---

Actually, it looks like Bluray fans might not have to wait until Christmas to get BR players at a good price. Pioneer (not even a cheap Chinese brand) just announced at $299 Bluray drive (that's cheaper than anything HDDVD has at the moment):

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=140

I don't think the argument that HDDVD players are going to be cheaper holds much water anymore. BR will be similar in price.

A big announcement is supposed to come from Sony on Monday, but we're not sure what yet. Maybe they'll announce another cheaper player?

I've read some reviews of Bluray Players for TVs, and most of them say that they're either expensive, slow and lacking in support for some features, or incredibly expensive. This being the case, I'm not seeing why many people would buy a Bluray Player other than a PS3. Am I just missing something here? What's the benefit of paying over £300 extra for the sake of a dedicated Bluray player?

Originally posted by sammorris:

---

Am I just missing something here? What's the benefit of paying over £300 extra for the sake of a dedicated Bluray player?

---

There isn't, IMHO. BUT the prices of the newest generation BR players will be coming in at just below the cost of a PS3 (which plays BR very well, and quickly, by the way).

I like that I get online updates with my PS3, as well. PiP should be an update some day, I'd suppose (although I could care less about it).

I'm having more fun with PS3 games like Motostorm and 2K7 Baseball than I am with movies anyway. :) Heck, even if Bluray didn't win, I'd still have a great video game system that will have resale value for many years to come (unlike standalone players). Sony will always provide PS3 games on BR disks, as that is what the PS3 takes.

By the way, Sony just laid the groundwork for a new plant making BR disks in the USA. They're not planning on disappearing anytime soon:

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=143

Yeah, so until that price drop happens, I fail to see why many people buy the standalone units...

Originally posted by egcarter:

---

Sony claimed that 100,000 copies of CASINO ROYALE were shipped, not sold.

---

- No. They were perfectly happy to brief the press to use the term "sold" in their press releases.
They lied.
Yet again.

The truth is (given the tiny size of the total high def DVD market) that sales were respectable, but they just can't help the BS & lies.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/

Headline on 27th of March "007 sells 100,000 BDs"

http://www.mi6.co.uk/news/index.php?itemid=4881

"Casino Royale sells over 100,000 copies on Blu-ray in first week"

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news...Happy_Feet/539

"...the rumoured first week Blu-ray sales of Casino Royale are in excess of 100,000 units..."

http://commanderbond.net/article/4193

"Casino Royale is the first Blu-ray movie to surpass 100,000 sold copies"

http://www.tcmagazine.com/comments.php?id=14367&catid=6

Originally posted by Baccusboy:

---

Do you have any links to these three charts? Respectfully, I don't believe they exist.

---

- Thanks for the vote of confidence.
Anyhoo, of course -

Amazon - http://www.highdefdigest.com/images/post/2/2309/original.gif

Euro sales - http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q26/BaldMonkey76/players.jpg

On the 18th/04 (after the 15th's buy-athon) Planet Earth on HD-DVD was still ranking at number 8 on Amazon (BR - No. 20) and has beaten the highest poitn a BD movie ever reached (Casino Royale @ 7).

According to Neilson HD-DVD was outselling BR in Oct, Nov, Dec and Jan with BR only outselling HD-DVD in Feb by 51.5% to 48.5%

AxelMusic continue to show a HD-DVD lead -
BLU-RAY...... ...HD-DVD
Weekly 36.2%... .63.8%
Monthly 35.0%... 65.0%
Yearly 32.7%.....67.3%

Releases 301..... 256
http://www.axelmusic.com/index_fab.php?fid=39&cid=&pid=fmt

From the executive summary of next generation disc
Warner:
HD DVD : Total = 334,291; Average 5,480 per title
Blu-ray : 159,012; Average 4,185 per title

Paramount also has higher sales on HD DVD than Blu-ray.

Originally posted by Baccusboy:

---

Actually, it looks like Bluray fans might not have to wait until Christmas to get BR players at a good price. Pioneer (not even a cheap Chinese brand) just announced at $299 Bluray drive (that's cheaper than anything HDDVD has at the moment):

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=140

---

- Which is great until you realise they are just taling about an ordinary SD DVD burner and a BD ROM combo.

The $299 price applies to China.

We have no idea when they are coming or how much they will be priced here.

.....but the way the story has been worded to leave the reader with the (untrue) impression that this is a cheap BD burner speaks volumes once again.
More BD BS.

Originally posted by Baccusboy:

---

I don't think the argument that HDDVD players are going to be cheaper holds much water anymore. BR will be similar in price.

---

- In what meaningful way would that be?

A BD ROM that costs twice the price of the current HD-DVD ROM drive?

My XBox 360 HD-DVD drive works beautifully with my PC as a multi format drive (it even plays CDs......which might not sound like such a big deal but it meant I could specify my new PC with only one DVD/CD drive cutting down on price, heat and the watts drain on the PSU.

Quote:

---

A big announcement is supposed to come from Sony on Monday, but we're not sure what yet. Maybe they'll announce another cheaper player?

---

- I'd wait until you actually see something in the stores before hanging on their propaganda releases.

They already claimed a cheaper Chinese BD player was on the way anyways

They aren't exactly likely to undercut the PS3 as the best selling BD player.....maybe they'll tell folks the truth about about the BD spec changes that are set to leave many current BD owners out in the cold?

.....or the truth about the future implications of all that DRM they have crammed into BD? :P

First:

Your Amazon sales chart was from the day of the spike, and is now no longer current by several days. I'm sure you already knew that, and were embarrassed to see that I proved my point. In case you missed it the first time, please click here to see the current numbers, and notice that it was indeed a 1-day spike due to the anniversary buy-date coordinated by HD-DVD fanboys:

CURRENT actual AMAZON chart numbers, as graciously collected on one page for us to see:



More rankings here: http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/


Here's another popular site:

DVD-Empire sales:

http://www.dvdempire.com/Content/Fea...99365586914476


(I've never heard of your Axelrecords, or whatever it is)


Second:

Yes, that was indeed a BD Player -- not a burner. I never said it would be a burner. It plays BR disks. That's what most people want to do with them. It's also a Pioneer player, and it's not going to be much different in price if it's sold in China, the USA, or Japan.


Third:

As for your X-box360 HDDVD eyesore, you don't even have optical audio out. Since the Xbox 360 currently doesn't offer HDMI connectivity unless you spend nearly as much for a PS-3 and buy the new and not-so-improved Black360. If you have an old X-box360, there's no way to output your HD DVDs via HDMI for optimal video and audio quality. Oh, and if you buy and Xbox360 and this unit, it'll still be priced more than a PS-3, but you won't get as many bells and whistles. Also, if you want the full resolution of Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby True HD, or DTS' trio of new formats, any or all of which are available on HD DVD, you're not going to get it from the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on. That's because these formats require either an HDMI output or an analog multichannel output--both of which are lacking on the 360 and the external drive.


Fourth:

Your UK numbers for a few hundred players sold at that tiny store you quoted totally excludes the 165,000 Bluray-playing PS-3's sold at launch in the UK (more since then). Please read here for that info: http://www.mcvuk.com/news/26261/Record-b...ld-at-UK-launch

Fifth:

The truth about DRM is that the movie industry wants it, and studios such as 20th Century Fox are reluctant to release their movies on HD disks until security is safer. Bluray offers more security than HD-DVD, or has that capability coming out in the near future.

The fact is that many more studios support Bluray than HD-DVD, and a big reason for that is the DRM capability of BR, whether the consumer likes that or not.

Let's look at how the formats compare as far as studio support. As you can see, more support BR:





Lastly, some information about March sales:

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6435141.html

One

You asked me to back up what I said and I did.

Two

That new Pioneer drive is only a BD Rom device, not that you'd know it from the original press release - talk about deliberately misleading.

Who cares if it is also a combi DVD burner, who hasn't already got one of those?

Three

It's still double the price of the HD-DVD ROM - which works perfectly through a PC including excellent sound of the very highest quality (which is surely fair if you want to compare it to that BD PC ROM drive).

Four

The PS3 is (in all markets) a games console first and foremost.

.....and as we can see with something like 3 million of them out there in comparison to 100,000 HD-DVD stand-alones and the approx further 100,000 XBox 360 HD-DVD add-ons and Lap-top/PC HD-DVD drives they are not delivering the tidal-wave of BD retail movie sales some imagined.

3 million verses 200k approx = between 1:1 on some days/weeks or even 4:1.
Not what any fair minded person would call a stellar performance.

.....and as HD-DVD continmues to fall in price throughout the year the improving HD-DVD performance can only improve further.

Five

The truth about BD's unprecedented levels of DRM is that Sony 'sold' BD to the movie studios on that basis.

Your efforts to demonstrate the gulf in 'studio support' as meaningless as it is absurd as it is incomplete (surprise surprise when it comes to HD-DVD, of course).

Here's a list of HD-DVD movie support you won't be seeing in any of those ridiculous Blu-ray logo ads.


- Warner
- Universal
- Paramount
- New Line/HBO
- Weinstein
- Magnolia
- Brentwood Home Video
- BCI
- DVD International
- Eagle Rock Entertainment
- Concert Hot Spot
- Image Entertainment
- Interscope
- Entertainment In Video
- Goldhil Home Media
- HDNet
- Razor Digital Entertainment
- Rhino Entertainment
- Discovery Channel
- Tartan Video
- MTI Home Video
- Studio Canal
- 2Entertain/BBC
- Pathe
- Momentum Pictures
- Manga Films
...13 of them exclusive.

A study was done showing a potential 'catalogue' of approx 48,000 movies for BD verses 40,000 for HD-DVD - as things now stand, one move by any BD exclusive studio and that all changes.
We've seen some of the big BD exclusive hardware manufacturers go dual format (with another one or two of the big Japanese names expected to follow this year) so it is hardly beyond the bounds of possibility that studio support may also waver.
We saw porn all go HD-DVD exclusive with the exception of Vivd which is going to try out dual format with at least 1 BD release.....although they made it very clear that BD is expensive to manufacture.

.....and your 'noteable members' of the group is also rather amusingly well out of date.

You really ought to be counting Samsung, Lite-On, Meridian, and Onkyo on the HD-DVD side by now.....and then there is the 3 inexpensive Chinese brands coming thanks to the deal done with Microsoft and Broadcom at CES 2007.

I also find it rather funny that the 'Board of Directors' (ie the BD Association) is never compared to the true equivelent, the DVD Forum (look it up).

Nevermind, as the year develops we'll see more of the same, PS3 sales stalled and continuing to fail to generating BD movie sales some imagined.
HD-DVD prices continue to fall (anyone catch the Walmart announcement today? Even if the expected retail price Engadget mentioned was laughable - $299.....cos you can get a Toshiba HD A2 on Amazon USA for almost that right now - it proves inexpensive HD-DVD in bulk numbers is just months away.

When it arrives bye bye BD in the mainstream mass-market, hello yet another tedious Sony proprietary format.

Why do you think the former BD exclusive hardware manufacturers (including Samsung of all people the 1st and biggest stand-alone sellers) are now begining to bail and go dual format, hmmmmm?

Nevermind just ignore the bits you don't like to see, eh?

"hughjars" i almost feel sorry for you that you wasted money on that HD-DVD player of yours. the real reason HD-DVD player prices are falling is because they cant move the things out of stores, the HD-DVD addon for the 360's price is almost cut in half to $120 at walmart, i know cus i work there and we cant move the damn things out of the store so the higher-ups had to get rid of all the back stock and we arent ordering any more.

i also saw a figure that BD movies are outselling HD-DVD like 9 to 1 or 9 to 2, that doesnt bode well HD-DVD. the reason "planet earth" outsold is cus people banded together to try to help HD-DVD by buying multiple copies and players after they saw the same figure i saw. at this point a small number of people can affect sales this way, especially investors and others who have a vested interest in HD-DVD winning, but this will not work in the coming months, cus they are also having a bluray day and all the bluray big hitters are coming.

the DRM is being instituted by an update that even the ps3 will be getting also

also that studio support list you showed was laughable at best compared to bluray, you are also forgetting that sony is a movie studio, and they broke all time profit records last year at the movies and had the most #1 movies ever, all those big hits are exclusive to BD, also so is spider man 3 and the others and pirates of the carribean 3 and the others maybe 2 of the biggest movie franchises ever.

when those movies hit on bluray HD-DVD is officially dead, right now it is officially limping half dead if you look at the top 20 movie sales in HD, a vast majority are BD with only a couple being HD-DVD. so yes the format war is over.

also the adult industry isnt important to formats anymore as they were in the betamax/ vcr days, most of it is on the internet now and its hard to imagine people wanting it in HD at a much more expensive price when they could get it over the internet much cheaper and dvd is just fine for porn. no one buys an HDTV to view porn in HD.

also you forgot to metion your precious microsoft recently said they might release a bluray player add-on, shows how confident they are in HD-DVD ;) happy trails ! LMFAO

Quote:

---

Originally posted by egcarter:

---

Sony claimed that 100,000 copies of CASINO ROYALE were shipped, not sold.

---

- No. They were perfectly happy to brief the press to use the term "sold" in their press releases.
They lied.
Yet again.

---

I agree that the Sony Spinmeisters work time-and-a-half, but those references you gave are just quoting each other...not getting it directly from the horse's mouth. The Sony exec who actually did speak publicly on the CR Blu-ray sales said that they "shipped" 100,000 units. Yes, they sold them (on credit, anyway) to their wholesalers and direct dealers. Of course, tons of them could come back to haunt them...

My XBox 360 HD-DVD add-on was no waste, it was extremely inexpensive to me, it plays CD, DVD & HD-DVD and has a large and growing catalogue of movies available to it
(600 HD-DVD titles by the end of this year have been announced).
It is also white & silver like my new rig so it matches & blends in perfectly. :P

If you look at the Neilson figures you'll see that the approx 3 million BD players (seeing as the BD side wants to count every PS3 as a BD player) compared to the 200k HD-DVD players out there can only manage between an occasional and very brief peak of 4:1 but usually around 2:1 with total discs sold to date under 1.3:1.

Not very impressive really
(and when the bluster is removed actually very worrying for the BD backers....like I said it is the BD side's hardware people backing out of being 'exclusive' to go dual format and HD-DVD that has attracted new exclusive manufacturers).

Total discs sold Q1 2007
BD: 832,530
HD: 359,300

Total discs SI as of end of Q1 2007
BD: 1.2 million
HD: 937,500

March 2007
BD: 335,980
HD: 119,570

Your comment about the Walmart "higher ups" wanting "rid" of HD-DVD is kind of funny considering the 2007 $100 million USD investment in inexpensive HD-DVD players ($300 million USD total including 2008 deliveries) they announced yesterday.

The end is coming (the Walmart unit cost works out at $50 each so expect a store price around the $100 - $150 level?) but it is coming for BD, it will not vanish but become yet another Sony proprietary format just as UMD is to PSP (which is dead but outsells both high def formats combined, still).

So much for BD being able to match HD-DVD prices. :lol:

As for DRM?
You can't possibly know the future impact on existing BD hardware, we know the BD specs haven't even been frozen yet and that there are changes coming in october (which btw is not the final settling of everything).
I expect they'll do everything they can not to hurt the PS3 owner base but all bets are off for everyone else and as the DRM gets cracked or avoided who knows where that will take things?
I wouldn't go making guesses and unfounded claims about it if I were you.

You dismissal of the HD-DVD studio list also misses the point.

It proved the other graphic was completely inaccurate and untrue.

You might also care to know (cos you seem not to) that Studio Canal is a huge European studio bigger than Fox, Lionsgate or MGM.

Not everyone (not even all Americans) are into the Fox-style umteen sequel, totally corny, action movie aimed at the very young - and not everyone wants such 'Anglo-centric' movies either.

It's also thanks to those lesser known names you thought so "laughable" that we in Europe find many movies that are BD exclusive in the USA on HD-DVD here (Underworld Evolution being a recent and prime example), this along with HD-DVD not being region coded makes for a nice situation for HD-DVD.

The film industry has to keep on making larger profits just to stand still as the costs of new productions rise, so making sweeping claims about current profitability are rather simplistic.

The facts about staff lay-offs and profit falls I referred to were about the game division at Sony, btw.

What is it with you guys?
You're always claiming something just around the corner is about to kill off HD-DVD and yet it never does.

First of all it was going to be 50gb DL, then it was more studios ditching MPEG2, then it was PS3, then it was Casino Royale etc etc.
But it never actually happens.
Face it, the big BD gun (PS3) has been fired and it failed.

The Neilson figures show it quite clearly that for a dead or dying format HD-DVD is doing very very well.
3 million BD players verses 200k HD-DVD and around 2:1 movie disc sales is the best BD usually does.
As HD-DVD sales continue to grow that figue can only get better.....and when the really inexpensive HD-DVD players hit towards the end of this year (along with the HD-DVD PC drives which are set to be "significantly less expensive that the BD competition").

You might be interested to know that the adult movie industry in the USA alone shifts $11 billion in movie discs a year.
It's true that the net wasn't around during the vidoe-tape 'war' but it is also quite wrong to claim it has no effect at all and that the net has taken over completely.

......and where does this ludicrous nonsense about "my precious microsoft" come from?
I have plenty I can complain about with them but the topic here is high def dvd (and more specifically how HD-DVD has reached the 100,000 stand-alone players in the USA level first).

It's kind of sad how the BD fanclub think the problems with BD and the preference for HD-DVD is just a veiled version of their ridiculously childish console row, Sony PS3 v Microsoft XBox 360.
It's pretty pathetic actually.
The world is a little more complicated (and interesting) than that.

The guy from microsoft (if you read the full quote(s)) simply stated the facts of the matter - I know, I know, for those who have been raised to expect to suck up a diet of one-dimensional propaganda it's hard to 'get'

Neither format has 'won' anything yet.
It is possible that HD-DVD may lose and become the new betamax.
It is also true that BD may lose and become the new betamax
If HD-DVD were to lose microsoft would probably offer a BD option.

That's a realistic sane adult talking about reality and how the real world is.

I guess some people just prefer the simplistic fanboy rubbish - but don't worry there'll be some Sony 'hydra' shill along sometime soon to tell you right you are and how all their products you have bought to date are wonderful and about to wipe every other alternative out.

hughjars
so sony/BD has to play the number game(mixing BD players and PS3 together),how many MS HDVD add ons were sold?

The fact of the matter is, neither platform is going under any time soon, Bluray have the current sales advantage as seen by the sales figures, but what I've also seen from the various evidence provided is that HD-DVD is catching up. The HD-DVD addon for the Xbox 360 is vastly inferior to genuine HD-DVD Players (after all it is a lot cheaper) and the PS3's HD support, and people who are serious about High Definition would probably want a standalone player. Those who spent a not insignificant amount of money on the Xbox 360 (including myself), are not necessarily going to say "let's spend even more money on this by getting a primitive HD addon", it'll be "if we have to spend more money, we may as well do it right", they may very well buy an HD-DVD player, especially since the cost of Bluray players is outrageous, but nonetheless you really shouldn't back the HD-DVD side with consoles.
The PS3 should fare better in this sense, and I'm confident, flop or not, that it has made a bigger difference to its format than the 360 addon. Simpy because, "we've got a cool new games console, it was expensive, but we now also have a high definition DVD player".

It's my hope that these combination drives (BluRay and HD-DVD) will become more affordable and eventually more mainstream, I couldn't care less about the writing technology, it's an impractical method of storing PC data as far as I'm concerned, so all people would be doing is recording their own High definition material. If a fast, reliable, dual-format device that can interface with an HDTV with all the snazzy features enabled, and for a cost that sees it in households that aren't millionaires, that's a true High Def victory.

uh hughjars james bond wasnt a record breaking movie like spiderman franchise and pirates of the carribean both are. get over it when these movies hit HD-DVD is DEAD. spider man 3 is already breaking records in japan of all places, expect the same in america and elsewhere, same with pirates. both of these are exclusive and they are some of the biggest movies of all time, you wont be watching them in HD sadly LMFAO. so many other hits are exclusive to bluray, and like i said sony studios had a record breaking year with most #1 movies and most profits in a year in 2006. come fall HD-DVD will officially be dead whether you like it or not, that is when pirates and sspiderman 3 will come out on bluray and if james bond sold so well on bluray what you think these 2 movies are gonna do ? not to metion all the other bluray exclusives, you go enjoy smokin aces while i watch spiderman 3 in HD LOL.

you say studios are going dual format but more are goin to bluray that were once HD-DVD only, i remember at first the departed was only in HD-DVD then they made it on bluray and i believe it sold better on bluray, not sure though.

and the fact remains we almost cut the add on price in half cus they werent moving, and MS is considering the bluray drive so they totally burned you, and i send my regards.

CaLiMaCk
sorry neither format is going anyway for at least 3 years when the cheap dual players start coming out and then theres a 50/50 chance nither side will give up until dvd is replaced in 8+ years.

CaLiMack, I wouldn't be quite so sure. I have a pretty strong feeling both formats will still be alive and well when those films are released.

Never mind that Walmart have just contracted the Chinese for 2 million HD-DVD players @ $300 USD (= $50 unit price to Walmart each).

Think about it, $50 unit price.
So how much are they going to retail for?
I expect $150 - $200 initially (around X-mas 2007?) - 1/3rd will be delivered this year - that's over 1/2 a million.
Then into 2008 around the $100 - $150 level.

BD simply cannot compete on those prices and will lose the mainstream mass-market.

Those that want to flail away with their absurd wailings of how BD is going to kill off HD-DVD carry on the fantasy, it's very amusing in view of the facts.

Sammorris, the XBox 360 HD-DVD add-on might well be limited when hooked up to an XBox 360 but the situation is entirely different when it is linked to a decent & recent PC and used as a HD-DVD drive with good software.
It's an extremely capable and cost effective option for now.

I have no doubt that BD won't die, there are (or will be) too many PS3s around for that to happen for a long time.
But I really do expect it will become the latest in the line of failed proprietary Sony formats that tried to gain a strangle hold on the video market.

.....and anyone who casts a serious & sober adult eye over what is going on with HD-DVD is plain nuts to be claiming it is about to turn it's toes up :P

hughjars
*pounce noogies* just dun forget BR could win and the war is pretty much 50/50 untill one "wins" :X

Once the mass-market goes that's it zippy.

Having seen the Walmart deal (and remembering what they did for SD DVD) I just don't see BD ending up as much more that a PS3 proprietary format and maybe (if they can get the costs of the 100gb & 200gb hardware & media down to a level business will pay) professional bulk data storage.

By this time next year numbers of hardware & software sales will be reaching meaningful levels and we should start to be able to see pretty clearly the way it is going.

We can say pretty clearly right now that PS3 did not win this 'war' already, BD movie disc sales are far too low and attachment rates far too small for that to be true.

hughjars
now whos spouting rhetoric now :P

all in all its still to close to call since the other side can just do a price drop on theirs it will take consumrs only picking one coprerations only picking one or one side giving up I don't see any of the happening within the next year in 09 maybe but in the end end claiming sides its futile with no real movement in them.

I don't think it just rhetoric zippy.

The Walmart deal (like the microsoft/broadcom deal) is a fact.

Nothing similar or equivelent to that exists as far as BD is concerned.

It is also true that BD hardware is more expensive.

As well as being significantly more complicated (more physical parts needed particualrly in the BD drives due to the 0.1mm focusing issues), the players also need better spec'd parts because of the better specifications on audio, video, memory, decoders, bandwidths and data rates etc etc etc on BD.

They saddled themselves with hardware specs that were simply not needed and the net result is that they cannot compete on price.

BD owes it's investors a lot of money (the CEO of Matsushita said several billions of $ US, IIRC) they do not need a competitor taking sales and profits away from them (or for that matter forcing them into teh same kind of low profit cheap manufacturing that HD-DVD can 'afford').
HD-DVD, relatively speaking, owes almost nothing as it cost almost nothing using existing SD DVD tech.


It's no rhetoric to say zippy that BD needed to knock HD-DVD out of the game as fast as possible.
HD-DVD meanwhile needed a slower war of attrition so as to gain time for their volume low cost 'cards' to come into reality.

So in the strategic sense guess who is winning now, huh?

That's why those silly ratios and percentages (when the market size is so tiny) mean nothing right now.

hughjars
merely suggesting sometimes your furvor makes you a bit blind sighted.

its true HDVD has a better plan however the plants have yet to bear fruit despite the plant looking healthily.

Also its going to take more than that to kill BR its still have to much support plus once dual players come out under 250 a pop(late 08-mid 09) the war might shift, however you spin the numbers or who is supporting who its going to take a large shift away from BR for it to be in its death throws,its to early yet to say anythign other than Sony/BR needs to get off its arse and get prices in gear to match their opponents but I think it will take a act of god or the devil for sony to lower its price, its sad to think sony has been the number 1 thorn in BRs side, HDVD being a respective 2nd.

But that's the thing zippy, I have never said BD will really die out.

I fully expect BD to be around serving the PS3 user base and the relative handful of those who insist in being different with stand-alones.
Them and the professionals using it for bulk data storage - provided, as I said, that they can get 100gb & 200gb media and hardware working and available at a price business will pay.

It'll be (IMHO) the same kind of deal as UMD now has with PSP, dead (but only in the sense that it's going nowhere in future), dead in the sense that betamax was still around until 2002 even though it had lost the video tape 'war' in the mid 1980's.
It'll still out there with new content available for those that have it or buy a PS£.....with the business possibility tacked on.

I have never said it'll die out completely (you have to look for other plonkers claiming formats are dead or are dying out here for that kind of rubbish)

hughjars
No but you have been stating or at least heavily hinting BR will no longer be for movies in the next year, I simply don't see it happening that quickly.

Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:

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hughjars
No but you have been stating or at least heavily hinting BR will no longer be for movies in the next year, I simply don't see it happening that quickly.

---

- Well if you got that impression then I hope you will take it from me that you have mistaken my views.

Read my last post and what I said about 'dead'.

BD will still be knocking around for many years......just as the day-dream that some had that imagined a scenario of a losing HD-DVD vanishing overnight was a load of very silly nonsense too.

Quote:

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Originally posted by ZIppyDSM:

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hughjars
No but you have been stating or at least heavily hinting BR will no longer be for movies in the next year, I simply don't see it happening that quickly.

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- Well if you got that impression then I hope you will take it from me that you have mistaken my views.

Read my last post and what I said about 'dead'.

BD will still be knocking around for many years......just as the day-dream that some had that imagined a scenario of a losing HD-DVD vanishing overnight was a load of very silly nonsense too.

---

=============================================================
ah zippy can not always read for the voices writing in between the lines :X

do you think dual players can hit under 250 by mid 09?

I doubt that zippy, as I said there are technical reasons why BD cannot be as cheap as HD-DVD to manufacture.

Economies of scale ought to have worked in BD's favour but it really does look like HD-DVD have that covered now
(even though they both use blue lasers and the same blue laser diodes there are other parts to the BD 'kit' which mean when they are both being produced in millions HD-DVD will always be the cheaper).

That's what I was getting at about BD needing a quick win and HD-DVD wanting it drawn out more.

If HD-DVD goes mainstream this year you may well see some of the exclusive BD movie studios shifting their ground to dual format just like the hardware people are begining to do.

But you never know, if the HD-DVD side of the equation can be so low as to allow a unit cost of $50 (as we can see in that Walmart deal) then maybe those sort of low numbers will offset the additional BD costs.

Never say never, huh?

Originally posted by hughjars:

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I doubt that zippy, as I said there are technical reasons why BD cannot be as cheap as HD-DVD to manufacture.

---

That is, assuming over time that BD gets their yields up. A friend in a very large studio informed me that the HD DVD yields are 85 - 90%, whereas the BD yields are only around 70%, meaning that they have to throw away 30% of the BD discs from the manufacturing line. That's where your costs skyrocket.

That's the media production problems they're (still) having egcarter, good point well made (particularly with the dual layer BD stuff).

But I meant the additional BD hardware costs, the BD drive itself is more complex and expensive than the HD-DVD drive.

Now that HD-DVD have also broken into the multi-million production levels the economies of scale BD had counted on (thanks to PS3 production) to help them out with their price disadvantage will not make a difference between the two formats and they will remain locked into higher hardware costs when compared to HD-DVD.

But as you say they have it tough on both parts of the equation.

Originally posted by hughjars:

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That's the media production problems they're (still) having egcarter, good point well made (particularly with the dual layer BD stuff).

But I meant the additional BD hardware costs, the BD drive itself is more complex and expensive than the HD-DVD drive.

Now that HD-DVD have also broken into the multi-million production levels the economies of scale BD had counted on (thanks to PS3 production) to help them out with their price disadvantage will not make a difference between the two formats and they will remain locked into higher hardware costs when compared to HD-DVD.

But as you say they have it tough on both parts of the equation.

---

====================================================================

care to quote current HDVD/BR prices?

BR might be the end of the PS3 since sony has decided its not going to drop the price I thought MS had "issues" but sony it seems has them in spades as well.

You might find a clearance Samsung BD1000 player (they are currently being sold off at about £350 here in the UK but that really is a case of 'end of the line' getting rid of a dodgy player that got slammed in reviews).

The rest is PS3 prices and on up, I gather it is the same in the USA.

HD-DVD meanwhile retails in the USA @ $320 for the Toshiba HD A2 and $380 for the Toshiba Hd A20 (for those that insist that 1080p is the meaning of life and everything :P )

In the UK the Toshiba HD E1 is £280 and the extremely well reviewed 1080p HD XE1 is £466.
These are all gen 2 machines (unlike all the BD machines with maybe the exception of the PS3).
The Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on is sometimes discounted but usually is around £129 (if you can find it in stock).

Originally posted by hughjars:

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You might find a clearance Samsung BD1000 player (they are currently being sold off at about £350 here in the UK but that really is a case of 'end of the line' getting rid of a dodgy player that got slammed in reviews).

The rest is PS3 prices and on up, I gather it is the same in the USA.

HD-DVD meanwhile retails in the USA @ $320 for the Toshiba HD A2 and $380 for the Toshiba Hd A20 (for those that insist that 1080p is the meaning of life and everything :P )

In the UK the Toshiba HD E1 is £280 and the extremely well reviewed 1080p HD XE1 is £466.
These are all gen 2 machines (unlike all the BD machines with maybe the exception of the PS3).
The Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on is sometimes discounted but usually is around £129 (if you can find it in stock).

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==============================================================
so a 100-200 price diffrance in the players Mmmm I dont think the price war has gone full scale yet...if it did you would see price variances of 100 or less.

Quote:

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Originally posted by hughjars:

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I doubt that zippy, as I said there are technical reasons why BD cannot be as cheap as HD-DVD to manufacture.

---

That is, assuming over time that BD gets their yields up. A friend in a very large studio informed me that the HD DVD yields are 85 - 90%, whereas the BD yields are only around 70%, meaning that they have to throw away 30% of the BD discs from the manufacturing line. That's where your costs skyrocket.

---

This is absolute bunk.

Actually, the producer of the Nine Inch Nails live BR and HD-DVD said exactly the opposite. He stated that they had a problem with quality checks of HD-DVD disks after they were printed. Something about how error-correction was next to impossible and very time-consuming. This was much easier on Bluray, and it led to a much higher yield of trouble-free disks shipped out. When I find the link, I'll post it.

Wow.. take a look at Amazon figures for disks sold this past week. Bluray is kicking HD-DVDs behind, and sales of Planet Earth on Bluray have nearly eclipsed those of HD-DVD now... wow!

"those who insist in being different with stand-alones" - So it's clear to you that anybody who uses BluRay must be wrong? A bit of a small-minded view, hughjars, what about those who wish to buy the movies made on Bluray discs only? Oh well, since HD-DVD is the better technology, better get it in standard def! I hardly think so. I agree that HD-DVD is a better-planned technology, but I don't see BR being dead even in the sense you describe anywhere soon.

Quote:

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BR might be the end of the PS3 since sony has decided its not going to drop the price I thought MS had "issues" but sony it seems has them in spades as well.

---

It's why I don't take any sides in the Console war, apart from the sheer fanboyism of it, for all those who argue Microsoft as the corrupt monopoly, Sony are just as bad, but without the monopoly!
Hughjars, I was under the impression that the A2 and E1 were Gen1? Perhaps I was just thinking of lack of 1080p, I could have sworn Toshiba introduced that when they moved to the second generation of players.

Planet Earth's on Bluray now? Interesting. Me, I prefer it in DivX HD. Oops, did I say that? :P

sammorris

I think this is the first time new models of a console have come out so soon add the hardware failures all the more reason to give it anotehr year as for the PS3 its more like a OTT media player and not a game console so far the hardware is stable but the price leaves me cold it can wait a year or 2.

that only leaves the wii and I am waiting on a couple games for it before I buy in.

If I had more money, I'd happily buy a Wii right now, the PS3 I'd have to qualify as rich to buy.

Originally posted by hughjars:

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You might find a clearance Samsung BD1000 player (they are currently being sold off at about £350 here in the UK but that really is a case of 'end of the line' getting rid of a dodgy player that got slammed in reviews).

---

There were firmware upgrades to the 1000 model.

They have since released a 1200 model, which has excellent reviews, and is considered perhaps the best BR player so far.

Planet Earth has been a phenomenal series. Some of the best cinematography ever! Any fan of nature series owes it to themselves to watch them. I can't imagine how good they must look in HD.

hughjars, that article about cheap players for Wal-Mart is from Taiwan. When translated directly, it means, "Blu-Light HD DVD Players". We're all trying to figure out what that means...

1. HD-DVD Players with a Bluray-like name meant to confuse?
2. A combo player
3. A Bluray player

It's looking more like Bluray at the moment, because the article mentions two Bluray-oriented themes:

1. That TDK is the Japanese company co-sponsoring the buy
2. That the disk no longer require a cartridge (Earliest Bluray disks required a cartridge -- HD-DVD never did).

You might be a little shocked to find out that Wal-Mart is actually planning to stock millions of Bluray players with a TDK name!

Quote:

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Planet Earth has been a phenomenal series. Some of the best cinematography ever! Any fan of nature series owes it to themselves to watch them. I can't imagine how good they must look in HD.

---

It looks superb, I assure you. Now I want all the other David Attenborough documentaries in HD!

Quote:

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"those who insist in being different with stand-alones" - So it's clear to you that anybody who uses BluRay must be wrong?

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- Eh? How do you get to that conclusion?

They're no more "wrong" than those who insisted on being different with DAT.

Quote:

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what about those who wish to buy the movies made on Bluray discs only? Oh well, since HD-DVD is the better technology, better get it in standard def! I hardly think so.

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- I hardly think so too.

I am quite certain that - just as has happened with the previously BD exclusive hardware manufacturers - we will see everybody going dual format or neutral in the next 2 or 3 years.

I expected that to be the case anyways eventually but now with the very real possibility of $125 - $175 HD-DVD players out by the end of this year I think it will happen a lot sooner than some imagine.

Quote:

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I don't see BR being dead even in the sense you describe anywhere soon.

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- Of course you're as entitled to you view on this as I am mine.

I just think the track -record is plain for all to see in this, one stalled proprietary format after another.....and with very inexpensive HD-DVD players coming (particularly to the place that shifts 40% of the USA's regular SD DVD numbers) I think my forecasting in this has some decent validity.

Quote:

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Hughjars, I was under the impression that the A2 and E1 were Gen1?

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- Naaaa, they're gen 2.

The Toshiba HD A1 & HD XA1 were the 1st gen.

Quote:

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Perhaps I was just thinking of lack of 1080p, I could have sworn Toshiba introduced that when they moved to the second generation of players.

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- Naaa sam, the HD A2 is a 720p/1080i player but it is gen 2.

Quote:

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Planet Earth's on Bluray now? Interesting. Me, I prefer it in DivX HD. Oops, did I say that? :P

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- I have the set too, it's a real showcase for HD. :D

Originally posted by Baccusboy:

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hughjars, that article about cheap players for Wal-Mart is from Taiwan. When translated directly, it means, "Blu-Light HD DVD Players". We're all trying to figure out what that means...

---

- You mean the Sony FUD spreading crew are.

There are plenty of Chinese translations knocking about now that disprove that straw-clutching nonsense.

The facts are that this ties in with the Microsoft/Broadcom deal done at CES 2007. Broadcom will apparently supply the decoder chipset.

Check out the original AVS topic (now 22 pages !!) Fuh Yuan will make two million HD-DVD players for Walmart. The words "HD DVD" in English is used throughout the Chinese document.

Quote:

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US, April 20, 2007 - In breaking news today, it would appear that mega-retailer WalMart has contracted a Chinese manufacturer to produce millions of low-cost HD-DVD players. Though somewhat obfuscated by translation issues and the breaking nature of the news, the current internet consensus suggests that Taiwan based manufacturer Fuh Yuan, in cooperation with TDK, will produce the blue laser drives for 2-million HD-DVD players. Broadcom will reportedly supply the system-on-a-chip decoder, and China Great Wall will handle final assembly. The deal represents around US $100,000,000, and it is reported that a new manufacturing plant has already been opened to fulfill the order.

---

http://uk.gear.ign.com/articles/782/782359p1.html

Quote:

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It seems as if a Chinese manufacturer, Fuh Yuan, in cooperation with TDK, has been brought in to produce the blue laser drives in a move that may swing the format wars.

Up to now the Blu-ray system seems to have been trumping HD-DVD but this could shift the balance.

Rumours say that the contract is for 2 million units, with Broadcom providing the system-on-a-chip decoder, in a deal for $100,000,000 and it is said that a new factory has already been opened for the work.

---

Blu-ray-WalMart-ps3-xbox360.phtml" target="_blank">http://www.gamesdog.co.uk/news/news.phtm...3-xbox360.phtml

.....and as for TDK?
If you're going to try and spread this FUD BS then at least try and know your subject a tad better, eh?

There is no conflict of interest for TDK in supporting HD-DVD seeing as how they already have enormously significant HD-DVD connections.

Quote:

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As outlined in a statement by the HD DVD Promotion Group at some time in the near future a new HD DVD with a capacity of 51 gigabytes, which was developed by TDK and features three instead of two layers.......

......As it is, TDK in this format war is keeping its options open

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http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/83411

You'll also find that TDK has just been sold, but right now no-one can be 100% sure how it impacts on which side they support in this, if at all…

http://www.reuters.com/article/techn...T3300820070419

Better luck next time, eh? :P

Keep dreaming of inexpensive BD.....the nearest you're getting any time soon is the Pioneer $300 DVD burner (in China) that is also a BD ROM (not that you'd have known that from the original press release which clearly tried to leave the impression that it was a BD burner).
Typical manipulative BD PR BS.
You'd think those idiots would have worked out by now it only 'works' with the fanclub and is actively turning off and creating hostility amongst the a/v movie fans who don't 'do' this stupid 'format love'.

hughjars, you quote articles as fact... articles which begin with lines like, "It would appear that..." and "Rumors say..." and "It seems as if..."

These articles are nothing more than internet journalist wanna-bees posting stories falsely claiming "insider information" to build hits for their sites. The proof is in how they write. No sources. Just rumors and such. They speculate just like us. The only difference is that they have a site behind their name.

There are journalist fanboys on both sides of the spectrum declaring everything from "HD-DVD is dead" to "Wal-Mart refuses to stock Blu-ray." None of these articles are based on any sort of fact.

My personal favorite was this photo (a hoax which really upset a lot of HD-DVD fans):

Copied from PS3.com:

Yet another update to the most misreported (or at least mistranslated) story of the year:

As has been reported here (and everywhere else) Engadget got ahold of a press release, apparently from Chinese manufacturer Fuh Yuan, indicating that Walmart had placed an order for 2,000,000 HD DVD players, which was then later retracted due to an odd translation, leading some to think that Walmart was instead ordering Blu-ray players. What remained odd was that no press release was ever issued by Walmart, the HD DVD or Blu-ray promotions groups, or anyone else who would be involved. Fuh Yuan also failed to clarify this "story" and industry "insiders" posting on internet messageboards had no idea what was happening.

A CED Industry Newsletter that was posted in the news section here, is now apparently reporting the following:

Quote:
Sources we queried who are familiar with HD DVD licensing and Chinese OEMs were flummoxed by the reports. Neither Fuh Yuan nor Great Wall appear on any rosters of DVD and HD DVD licensees. Our search of major English-language newspapers and news services in Taiwan, China and Hong Kong didn't turn up any reports on Fuh Yuan or Great Wall or the purported deal with Wal-Mart. From translations of the Fuh Yuan announcement we've seen, it was part of a ramp-up for an IPO the company will launch in July.


And now Engadget has posted a retraction of the earlier article here

Quote:
The biggest news to hit the format war in some time hit last week with word that Wal-Mart and China's Great Wall corporation struck a deal to bring inexpensive HD DVD players to market. While this is would be great news for all HD fans, we were left a bit worrisome by the translation dispute between the two camps. Just to make sure we had our facts straight, we updated the post and contacted HD DVD to get the full story. While the HD DVD camp reminded us that they have inexpensive players from China on the way, they weren't able to confirm any "specific reports relating to Wal-Mart". It seems to us that if this were indeed true, that the HD DVD camp would be the first to trumpet its significance to their success in the format war. As much as we all want inexpensive next generation HD disc players, we will just have to wait for something more official before we hold off on our purchases waiting for Wal-Mart.


So, who knows what's going on with this? As much attention as this has gotten, it really doesn't bode well for the integrity of Engadget that they've essentially retracted this story twice: once to say it "might" be Blu-ray players, and now a second time saying the whole deal might not exist.

Could this release have been the optimistic writings of a pre-IPO Chinese company that HOPES to get enough money in an IPO to produce HD DVD players, which they THINK they can make very cheaply, and that they HOPE to sell to Walmart? That's definitely a different story, altogether.

And imho, is a more likely one too.