Microsoft to face class action lawsuit over Xbox Live bans

Good. Let's find out exactly how they are detecting this. If there is a policy in place, then a console should be banned immediately upon finding out that it breaks policy. Not when it is convenient to maximize profits. This is going to be extremely interesting.

You got caught, M$ can do what ever they want juset leave it.

Every one has to play by the rules, the pirates and also microsoft. Microsoft knew they where pirates but decided profit was more important and let them reup the "live" membership then banned them. Even honest pirates don't stoop that low.
That's one reason I never sign up for long term memberships, because companies can cancel you anytime and not refund your money. "burn me once shame on me, burn me twice shame on you."

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Although modification of Xbox consoles is arguably against the terms of use for Xbox/Xbox Live

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That says it all there. Microsoft's alleged profit motives don't even enter into it. If you mod you box, then you can't get on LIVE.

Best solution, have 2 boxes, one modded for games and offline play, and a non-mod for LIVE play. Doesn't take Mensa level thought here, folks.

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AbingtonIP says Microsoft obtained information from the user's consoles without permission.

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This is were the real game is!
I really want to see what will be the verdict especially for this cause this will apply for all consoles.

11. Privacy.

In order to operate and provide the Service, we collect certain information about you. We use and protect that information as described in the Microsoft Online Privacy Notice (http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=81184 ,and its successors). In particular, we may access or disclose information about you, including the content of your communications, in order to: (a) comply with the law or respond to lawful requests or legal process; (b) protect the rights or property of Microsoft or our customers, including the enforcement of our agreements or policies governing your use of the Service; or (c) act on a good faith belief that such access or disclosure is necessary to protect the personal safety of Microsoft employees, customers, or the public.

We may use technology or other means to protect the Service, protect our customers, or stop you from breaching this contract. These means may include, for example, filtering to stop spam or increase security. These means may hinder or break your use of the Service.

To provide you the Service, we may collect certain information about Service performance, your machine, and your Service use. We may automatically upload this information from your machine. Such data may include console hardware and operating performance data, and network performance and service quality data. Any software or hardware errors, which may occur while you are connected to Xbox Live or offline, may be uploaded and reported. All such data may be stored with the console’s unique identifier, and may be associated with other personally identifiable information. You may read about this data collection in more detail in the Microsoft Online Privacy Notice athttp://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=81184 .

Additionally, to evaluate and enable the features and functions of the Service, such as leaderboards, live-hosted gameplay,achievements, tournaments, and gamer profile sharing, you grant Microsoft and each of our affiliates, resellers, distributors, service providers, partners, and/or suppliers (each, a "Microsoft party"), permission to use, track, store, copy, distribute, broadcast, transmit, publicly display and perform, and reproduce your game scores, your game play sessions, your presence on the Service, the time that you spend on or within particular portions of the Service, portions of the Service that are displayed on your monitor or screen and the duration of that display, rankings, statistics, gamer profiles, avatars, content that you may submit, and other usage information with or without attribution to you ,your gamertag, or avatar and without notice or compensation to you of any kind. To avoid any confusion, we have the right to make information pertaining to your use of, and gameplay on, Xbox LIVE available through Games for Windows LIVE, and vice versa .

By buying the Xbox, we agreed to this. This attorney is wasting his time. Maybe he should just get over the fact that his xbox got banned. haha

The problem lies in how Microsoft is detecting modded consoles. They may very well have a case if it is found that MS is obtaining info about consoles illegally, through the means of invasion of privacy. Even if the violation of copyright laws is indeed a crime, MS cannot act upon it by illegal means, otherwise their acts will be considered unlawful.

If AbingtonIP can prove that MS did not act in accordance with the law during the process of banning consoles, Microsoft may well have to at least restore full HDD functionality for all those who were banned.

This is a case of "two wrongs do not make a right", thus, one cannot claim that Microsoft had the right to ban pirates in whichever way they deemed fit just because said pirates were acting unlawfully. It's not how it works, Microsoft -can't- do whatever they please just because pirates were caught by them. Everything must be done within the boundaries of the law, regardless of what the other party did or is doing. After all, just because somebody steals something from me, that does not enable me to break into their house at night just to take my object back, and this is no different.

Now, I very much doubt anything will come out of this, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. But nonetheless, I'll be interested in seeing the verdict, after all, I was banned and this is of great interest to me.

M$ are watertight.. the only way to get banned is to break the TOS .. the courts will just want to know that M$ do have a watertight way to detect.. they aren't going to leak an industrial secret into the public domain.. HOW M$ detect is not important in this case.. all they have to show is that they can and do.. and the TOS then comes into force.

Judge will ask: "why are consoles getting banned"?
M$ will reply: "because they have been modified in a way which breaks the TOS"
judge will ask: "and you can detect modified consoles"?
M$ reply: "yes"
Judge asks : "do users who do not have modified consoles have any way to get the ban removed"?
M$ reply: "yes, but they have to prove to our satisfaction that they do not have a modified console.. probably by sending it to us for complete physical inspection if there is any doubt in the matter"
judge: "sounds about right, what does the modification do which breaks the TOS"?
M$: "It circumvents copy protection built into the game disks in clear violation of the DMCA"


case dismissed.

@MReprogle:

These may be considered unfair clauses should the court decide so, and therefore null and void. Terms of Use contracts are moot, really. They can't be negotiated, and only clauses recognized and endorsed by law are valid. I can't, for example, have a clause that says "IF YOU MOD THIS WE SHALL KILL YOU, YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR DOG" in a contract.

Still, I'd like to see some precedents to this case. Any law discussions are useless without appropriate case law references.

Originally posted by scum101:

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M$ are watertight.. the only way to get banned is to break the TOS .. the courts will just want to know that M$ do have a watertight way to detect.. they aren't going to leak an industrial secret into the public domain.. HOW M$ detect is not important in this case.. all they have to show is that they can and do.. and the TOS then comes into force.

Judge will ask: "why are consoles getting banned"?
M$ will reply: "because they have been modified in a way which breaks the TOS"
judge will ask: "and you can detect modified consoles"?
M$ reply: "yes"
Judge asks : "do users who do not have modified consoles have any way to get the ban removed"?
M$ reply: "yes, but they have to prove to our satisfaction that they do not have a modified console.. probably by sending it to us for complete physical inspection if there is any doubt in the matter"
judge: "sounds about right, what does the modification do which breaks the TOS"?
M$: "It circumvents copy protection built into the game disks in clear violation of the DMCA"


case dismissed.

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I agree that it is air tight for MS. But I do see how their actions can make them seem like accessories to a crime. If it can be proved that they knew about the modded consoles for a period of time, then it would appear that they exploited illegal activity to maximize profits.

Originally posted by CX1329:

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@MReprogle:

These may be considered unfair clauses should the court decide so, and therefore null and void. Terms of Use contracts are moot, really. They can't be negotiated, and only clauses recognized and endorsed by law are valid. I can't, for example, have a clause that says "IF YOU MOD THIS WE SHALL KILL YOU, YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR DOG" in a contract.

Still, I'd like to see some precedents to this case. Any law discussions are useless without appropriate case law references.

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You are correct. Laws override a company's terms of use. There isn't much in the legal side of this, besides that pirating is illegal, which is what they are going to point to. The only thing that we can hope is that this forces M$ to specifically state their means of gathering data from consoles. I can't imagine them being able to say that they aren't breaking privacy laws without giving a clear rundown of what they do get into our consoles. The attorney won't win the case, but the data that might possibly be recovered is more important to most of us anyways.

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Microsoft 'conveniently' timed the Xbox console ban to coincide with the release of the new Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 game and less than two months after the release of the very popular Halo 3: ODST game,"

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I find this quote hilarious, the wave "conveniently" happened just after one of this years massive (but overrated) titles was leaked onto the internet something like a week before release day. A game a huge amount of people were playing on and offline before release day should be an instant red flag for MS so why not take advantage of that?

MS are completely within their rights to do this making this lawsuit a complete joke that will result in nothing but alot of wasted money in legal fees for both partys.

Lawsuits...the american way to whine and bitch. They are going to use the coincidence of the ban happening around the release of Modern Warfare 2 and after Halo ODST being released as a basis of this case. What a joke. If you modded the console and violated licensing agreements and the TOS then you got banned. Deal with it. If they were doing this solely on profits then why didn't they wait until after christmas which will probably show strong sales in both those games. They did it because they are trying to stop the pirates end of story. Now quit your crying babies.

i really hate ms, but this is just stupid like bobiroc said.
Nearly as stupid as eu demanding that ms should remove mediaplayer and ie. Yeah thanks it is way better that i have to go firefox/opera site and download firefox/opera and then mp oh wait i dont have web browser. gee now i have to go to my old computer and download browser installation package to my usb stick and then install it from there to my new OS... thanks.


Fortunately they came to their senses with ie.

if you wanted to do more with your xbox than you are allowed then you should buy a computer or two xbox consoles. You broke the rules and knew the risks deal with it if you don´t like the rules buy pc or other console like ps3.

If M$ has the rights to the software on the system then anyone how has a console befor mid 08 then they have the right the turn you functions off (HDD). if you have a console after mid 08 then the function was allready on the system disabeling this is then illegal. this is changing what you have purchest you own the hole thing including software.

Well it's worth a try but they will most likely be crushed by M$.

this is crazy. They didn't ban people and cause a greater number of xbox live subscriptions. they banned people and made them buy the games + a new xbox...

Originally posted by CX1329:

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The problem lies in how Microsoft is detecting modded consoles. They may very well have a case if it is found that MS is obtaining info about consoles illegally, through the means of invasion of privacy. Even if the violation of copyright laws is indeed a crime, MS cannot act upon it by illegal means, otherwise their acts will be considered unlawful.

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Ugh, I hate repeating myself. M$ is detecting how the DVD's modified firmware responds. The modded one responds to challenges (copy protection) TOO quickly because it simply says everything is ok, while the stock does an actual check.

The 1 thing I can see them getting reamed for is their crippling of hard drives.

Happy, mods? No "insults" :D

This is just another lawyer, or team of them, trying to legally "blackmail" a corporation. This case, if it is indeed filed will go nowhere. As much as I despise M$, they are justified in banning these modded consoles. If anyone can remember M$ fought the U.S. government in court and won a few years ago, avoiding the company being split up. These people just don't have the resources to fight a monster the size of Microsoft, which in itself is unfortunate.
To those people who piss and moan about being banned for modding their console to use pirated software, take some responsibility for your actions. Its almost laughable they would be complaining after doing this. Sometimes its best to let sleeping dogs lie. Fortunately for them, M$ probably won't pull an RIAA, and start suing people for pirating software.

If you modded your xbox to play copies of the games that you bought LEGALLY then M$ can do nothing, the fact that they are disabling features because someone opened their OWN PRIVATE PROPERTY to play something that may have broke or got burnt in a massive house fire or something like that is just wrong

Originally posted by Jason89:

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If you modded your xbox to play copies of the games that you bought LEGALLY then M$ can do nothing, the fact that they are disabling features because someone opened their OWN PRIVATE PROPERTY to play something that may have broke or got burnt in a massive house fire or something like that is just wrong

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You obviously do not understand licensing agreements. You may have purchased the XBox but you agree to the licensing agreement or TOS on the software of that Xbox and you do not own that. Same goes for any of the games. If you modify that software you are in violation of that regardless if you paid money for the game or the console.

Honestly, if you where online with a Modded console the possible consequences should have already been understood. So really, what are they complaining about?

The reasoning of this lawsuit its the same as the reasoning for being a redneck, or living in a filthy trailer park full of inbreds.

i thought microsoft detected the idiots that played wave 4 games early, even with disconnecting internet, they didnt listen and got there asses banned, you cant detect a console mod because your modding a drive, i remember something about drive speeds but i doubt thats it

Microsoft banned everyone regardless of whether you played ur game online or off, modchips included. Even if you didnt play a game early,and stealth patched all ur games eventually you were flagged and banned.

Originally posted by ss2trunks:

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Microsoft banned everyone regardless of whether you played ur game online or off, modchips included. Even if you didnt play a game early,and stealth patched all ur games eventually you were flagged and banned.

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Huh?
So if you stealth patched your downloaded games, and didn't play them online, you shouldn't have gotten banned? Did I understand that correctly?

Listen, I don't like MS just as much as anyone else...but I think that it was just the fact that anyone who thought they could get away with a pirated game and then get banned is just burned...face it...those folks totally got played by MS.

Now, we will see if MS will be liable for this, but I highly doubt it. Questionable? Definitely. Fined? Probably not. Decreased sales in Xbox sales? Not a chance

Sorry to you all who got played. Damn.

Seriously, If all they are doing is banning you for your modded consoles, to play pirated games, consider yourself lucky. They could sue your ass, and fine you, put you in jail.

Ok.. Abbington IP has a strong case (trust me). Even when you sign up for live and read the ToU page, soms states do not honor electronic contracts, because of lack of Identity proofing. Other states have laws which limit the minumum age in which you can enter into a contract. But in the end.. ALL states have a law of ENTRAPMENT. I have a 360 as well, and It's shady when you buy a game and immediately have to do an update or it will not let you connect. Same with the dashboard. Do the update or be gone from live unitll you do. That isn't totally legal. It's sort of a spamming teqnique.
Also in the ToU it doesn't say anything about any centralized server or anyting having the ability or PERMISSION to scan your console.
The smear on MS's side on this subject is their forums. If anyone took the time to copy all these posts/replies and document the number of poeple claiming wrongful ban VS the times anyone from Microsoft tried to help them and then factored in all the other replies from users who've said they've sent in their info and STILL never got any replies (after weeks of waiting) the numbers are staggering.
I know what it take to mod a 360 and I know someone can pump out 50 or so in the afternoon, but come one... 1 million plus?!?!!
So far those who claim to have gotten a wrong ban haven't went public. well, not public enough unitll now. All it will take is 1 console wrongfully banned to turn this into a disaster for MS. Local news here had a report of an elderly couple who had a 360 for a DVD/Netfix player that got banned. I think they were in their 80's and their daughter bought thtem one after their dvd player went out. IS anyone wanting to call the pirate gamers? I thihnk the local gamestop stepped up and gave them a new system.

Another VAUGE thing in the ToU is the description of modding/tampering. If you wanted to be a real jerk you could say the faceplates that you buy at stores are misleading and a was to mod a console. If the dual USB door onthe face breaks, do you contact MS and have them fix it.. or can you glue it one and it not be called a mod? I've seen people rip these apart and replace the fans with stronger ones to PREVENT heat issues, thus saving them up to 400.00 for a new console. But MS considers this a mod!

A previous poster gave an analogy of buying a ford from a used car lot. If the fors breaks you'd go after the lot.. not ford. You're right, but in that case remeber ford and other car companies will REACALL defects and fix them (or the causes). Also using cars isn't good because a) they go through pretty tight inspections that the 360 would never pass through b) take way more abuse, c) every part on the car is intended to provide the car with optimal resources to preform it's duty. I can say the 360 is not designed for optimum duties. The rrod, dvd players burning rings into disks, overheating, non-working power supplies....etc.

Back tot he ban... if MS bans you they should provide a specific reason and let you go from there. This so far is like taking an exam in which you know you correctly answered every question, jut to have your professor tell you that you failed. When you ask to see the paper, he refuses to show it to you and ends the discussion. They give no proof other than pre-arranged answers that are cut and pasted to inquiries. If you're banned and have a unmodded console.. would you risk the dollars to buy another, not knowing why you got banned in the first place? They say you can still use the hard drive after a ban ( on a new console).. what if the hard drive is what got you banned? without specific reasons as long as you use that hard drive.. you're on the road to banville and they're on the road tot he bank. Also the blacklisting of the other 360 components/features is absurd post ban.
I trust this will al comeo ut good in the end for both parties, but so far only 1 party is willing to even open this up and try to talk about it - the consumers! MS is hush hush on this.... just like they rwere when they said the rrod isn't as bad as what it was made out to be. Right before they upped the warranty and reimbursed alot of people the cash tey had spent on paying for the repair. same hush hush about scratching disks.. right before a class action lawsuit and the disk replacement program. Hypothetically, if (and all it take is 1 proven case to blow this out of the water) they did ban a console for no violation of the ToU? You'll have millions screaming foul. Then what? have them all send in their units to MS for inspection? They'd probably lie and put the illegal firmware on them and say it was alread there when they received it. What about the thousands of people that bought a new one and trashed the old one. THOUGH MS would have a record of who got banned with what console ID/serial number, do you think they'd reimburse all those people.

Personally, i think this is so flawed that's why they've stayed hush hush and not given any help to anyone. Keep the consumer in the dark and the issue will go away.

Just my 2 cents
(and yes I work in the judiciary system)

Originally posted by scum101:

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M$ are watertight.. the only way to get banned is to break the TOS .. the courts will just want to know that M$ do have a watertight way to detect.. they aren't going to leak an industrial secret into the public domain.. HOW M$ detect is not important in this case.. all they have to show is that they can and do.. and the TOS then comes into force.

Judge will ask: "why are consoles getting banned"?
M$ will reply: "because they have been modified in a way which breaks the TOS"
judge will ask: "and you can detect modified consoles"?
M$ reply: "yes"
Judge asks : "do users who do not have modified consoles have any way to get the ban removed"?
M$ reply: "yes, but they have to prove to our satisfaction that they do not have a modified console.. probably by sending it to us for complete physical inspection if there is any doubt in the matter"
judge: "sounds about right, what does the modification do which breaks the TOS"?
M$: "It circumvents copy protection built into the game disks in clear violation of the DMCA"


case dismissed.

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OK.. so call MS and say you have a banned consooe and you'd like to have it sent in for inspection.. If they agree to it, I'll buy you a new 360 for evey week of the year.
They won't! Why? Becasue what happens when someone does send one in an it isn't modded? Well they confess to the error and now it's a bomb shell or they do the government cover up and mod it while you can not see it.

I wouldn't trust them alone with anytihng for verification. What are they verifying, how are they doing it, how will they report it. Read all the negative posts on their sites about their customer service/repair/technical help people. People are getting bricks back from repair that still don't work!

If you want to verify a console isn't tampered with take it to a best buy, gamestop.. some big chain store that is reputable and have managers look at it. I'm sure those Geek squad guys can tell. Documnet it and take it to a state atorney office.

My brother works at a gamestop and he just tells everyone to stick toothpicks in the rear so the fans can't turn and lay a towel over it for 1 hr so it burns up and goes to redeye, and then return it to the store (if you have an extended warranty). the stores don't check, becasue they don't care about MS policies. Their store policies come first and they need to be pushing these out the doors.

Originally posted by EricCarr:

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Seriously, If all they are doing is banning you for your modded consoles, to play pirated games, consider yourself lucky. They could sue your ass, and fine you, put you in jail.

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you're right on the pirating to jail... but how? they won't even get off theri tails to answer posts on a website. How would they go about this, Call you and ask "have you been playing illegal games", to which everone would speak ina foriegn accent, "I understand your issue but there is nothign I can do".
Also..someone pointed out that even if you bought the console you're still under the MS license. OK.. decent point, but it says software doesn't it? (or hardware). none th eless the console itself is neither. Taking a die grinder to the case is not tampering with either the software or hardware. Exchanging drives, motherboad compnonets is hardware, the programmng/firmware is software. If you blew 199.99 or more on this and wanted to open it up and remove thte fans and add some better fans to "protect your investement" then you should have the right to, without penalty.

Also did anyone think of this.. Alot of people on those 360 forums complain about gettting red lights POST updates. IF MS can read your console's structure, who's to say they can't write it eitehr. For example.. flashing a dvd drive. From what I see, you remove the drive, plug it into a pc, run program, cycle the power and replace it.. Sounds like a dashboard.console update to me. Download, cycle the power and done.. only 2 things missing is removeing/replacing the drive. And instead of a PC, you've got a huge server. If it ever gets out that they do have that technology on their 360 mainframes, the speculation would be enough to raise a big stink. Like being caught at a murder scene with a bloody knife, and expecting the police to buy "just becasue I got a bloody knife doesn't mean I did it"

If I were to compare this to a PC. When windows has an update, it informs you that you do and what the update is. This is what the 360 updates should be doing.

Originally posted by MReprogle:

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11. Privacy.

In order to operate and provide the Service, we collect certain information about you. We use and protect that information as described in the Microsoft Online Privacy Notice (http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=81184 ,and its successors). In particular, we may access or disclose information about you, including the content of your communications, in order to: (a) comply with the law or respond to lawful requests or legal process; (b) protect the rights or property of Microsoft or our customers, including the enforcement of our agreements or policies governing your use of the Service; or (c) act on a good faith belief that such access or disclosure is necessary to protect the personal safety of Microsoft employees, customers, or the public.

We may use technology or other means to protect the Service, protect our customers, or stop you from breaching this contract. These means may include, for example, filtering to stop spam or increase security. These means may hinder or break your use of the Service.

To provide you the Service, we may collect certain information about Service performance, your machine, and your Service use. We may automatically upload this information from your machine. Such data may include console hardware and operating performance data, and network performance and service quality data. Any software or hardware errors, which may occur while you are connected to Xbox Live or offline, may be uploaded and reported. All such data may be stored with the console’s unique identifier, and may be associated with other personally identifiable information. You may read about this data collection in more detail in the Microsoft Online Privacy Notice athttp://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=81184 .

Additionally, to evaluate and enable the features and functions of the Service, such as leaderboards, live-hosted gameplay,achievements, tournaments, and gamer profile sharing, you grant Microsoft and each of our affiliates, resellers, distributors, service providers, partners, and/or suppliers (each, a "Microsoft party"), permission to use, track, store, copy, distribute, broadcast, transmit, publicly display and perform, and reproduce your game scores, your game play sessions, your presence on the Service, the time that you spend on or within particular portions of the Service, portions of the Service that are displayed on your monitor or screen and the duration of that display, rankings, statistics, gamer profiles, avatars, content that you may submit, and other usage information with or without attribution to you ,your gamertag, or avatar and without notice or compensation to you of any kind. To avoid any confusion, we have the right to make information pertaining to your use of, and gameplay on, Xbox LIVE available through Games for Windows LIVE, and vice versa .

By buying the Xbox, we agreed to this. This attorney is wasting his time. Maybe he should just get over the fact that his xbox got banned. haha

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Very true,however living where i do it is not illegal to modify our consoles or make one (1) back up copy of a genuinely owned original game and this states exactly that in the back of our game instruction manuals.I have also heard that people that do not have a modified 360 are getting banned as well,it appears randomly,there may be a reason for this and actually, legally i believe this onus falls back on Microsoft for not testing their refurbishments completely..I.E to see if it plays backup games.Yea there are people that abuse XBL but also there are lots of people that don't and when a countries law states that we can modify our consoles then Microsoft have no buisness in banning it unless they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the owner is actually a full blown pirate or gamecheater.

Originally posted by scum101:

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M$ are watertight.. the only way to get banned is to break the TOS .. the courts will just want to know that M$ do have a watertight way to detect.. they aren't going to leak an industrial secret into the public domain.. HOW M$ detect is not important in this case.. all they have to show is that they can and do.. and the TOS then comes into force.

Judge will ask: "why are consoles getting banned"?
M$ will reply: "because they have been modified in a way which breaks the TOS"
judge will ask: "and you can detect modified consoles"?
M$ reply: "yes"
Judge asks : "do users who do not have modified consoles have any way to get the ban removed"?
M$ reply: "yes, but they have to prove to our satisfaction that they do not have a modified console.. probably by sending it to us for complete physical inspection if there is any doubt in the matter"
judge: "sounds about right, what does the modification do which breaks the TOS"?
M$: "It circumvents copy protection built into the game disks in clear violation of the DMCA"


case dismissed.

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You really think it is going to work that way....if you do you are dreaming...yet again....
Microsoft have to prove without a shadow of a doubt that "pirates" are abusing the terms,sure it is easy when you get the twits playing an early release on a game thats about the only thingthat will make the judge "dismiss the case" as for watertight secrets a judge will make them reveal all....

hopefully we'll find how they tell ur box is modded, thats the important thing from this case

That's all I know alot of people would like to know. What modification got them banned. If it's to benefit the gameplay (modded dvd drive) then the ban should stay. If it's adding a fan, or putting a back up device on the hdd to save to PC, then that is just wrong. The fans and hdd back up devices are made SOLELY to protect the console and the game data. I've never gotten whooed at any game by somone using a fan to their advasntage.
also if you want to add LED's and a case mod, you bought it.. who should be allowed.

Here's an pretty fair statement.. IF you buy a 360 and do not sign up for live, you do not see the ToU (correct me if I am wrong... not created a GT in over 5 yrs) so you don't agree to anything yet. If you mod the bejesus out of it, then sign in, would the mods be grandfathered since you didn't sign any contract until said mods are already done, although against a future contract.
- would be the same as when the drinking age here in Ohio was 18.. if you already was 18 when they changed it to 21, you still were legal and could purchase alchohol-
(but i could be wrong ont he ToU pre-live sign up.

I completely agree with AbingtonIP. Let us now forgot how easy it is to simply goto google, search original xbox hack, then goto google again and download a collection of 15000 games for free. Why doesnt M$ stop it? Because it is an obsolete market. Everyone who got their console banned is most likely going to buy another one. Theres roughly 200000000$ if those 1 million people buy a new console. The arguments related to the release of the 2 highly most anticipated games of the year is completely legit.

MW2 was available for download via megaupload 2 weeks before the game released, interesting how M$ tends to avoid these websites or press any charges. I wouldn't be suprised if the entire mod scene is a master marketing ploy. M$ makes Xbox, they make money off it. You hack a xbox, save money for time being, then get banned (ontop of paying money for online, wtf?), then you are forced to buy a new console. Guess who most likely makes the computer OS that supports dual layer drives, M$. Either way, they win.

I have stuck with Sony since 1996. I never payed 1 cent to play online games, with 3 times the max amount of online players supported then Xbox, nor have I ever used an OS other than free Linux. M$ can suck it, go Linux and Sony. I know they will loose this case, because interestingly on the hush hush the govt is really pissed at M$ for potentially allowing backdoors into the computers they use. M$ makes computers for everything, and everyone. To think they are legit is ludicrous.

i think it should be illegal for a company to block a user's fair use rights, even if it is .01% of the people. my ability to exercise this right far outweighs both the company's terms of useage and their ability to protect content. the same goes for everything.

I think that they should put something on the box...it does not have to be big, just something like "The FBI prohibits copying of games, even for backups. Doing so, or modifying this device to work with these backups is a crime, and will result in your system being remotely dissabled"

That way, no one can complain when their 360 gets destroyed, and lots of people will say "Piracy just isn't worth it; I'll buy the PS3 and spend the $60 a year I would have spent on Live on 3 $20 games" I know it is counter-intuitive for Microsoft to want low sales, but it is even more counter-intuitive to remotely dissable a device that they sold at a loss, just to force users to go and buy another one, also sold at a loss.

Even if you go out and spend the $300 or whatever it is for the console and all the games you have for it, your only licensing the software, you don't actually own rights to it. You have the right to resell the game to a authorized retailer(gamestop, eb games, ect..), you dont however, have the rights to do whatever the hell you want with the console nor the games. If you want to mod your console to play burnt games, then get 2 consoles, one for offline use and one for online use. Its the same properties as shoplifting, you know its wrong and if you decide to do it anyways and you get caught, there are consequences. Stop crying like a little bitch because your console got banned. If you had the money to get the first one, then *bleep* go out and buy another one. Its the same lawsuit thats going on with the people who own blu-ray players(myself included). I burned a copy of a movie I owned and my player started up like normal, then out of nowhere, BAM! My unit locked up. Took it to the IT guy down the lane and he said if you play copied anything in a blu-ray player, it locks it up, $600 down the drain...I might take it apart and do some reverse engineering on my part to unlock it. I am pissed that I cant use it now but its my own fault...

Originally posted by Dahaka128:

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Even if you go out and spend the $300 or whatever it is for the console and all the games you have for it, your only licensing the software, you don't actually own rights to it. You have the right to resell the game to a authorized retailer(gamestop, eb games, ect..), you dont however, have the rights to do whatever the hell you want with the console nor the games. If you want to mod your console to play burnt games, then get 2 consoles, one for offline use and one for online use. Its the same properties as shoplifting, you know its wrong and if you decide to do it anyways and you get caught, there are consequences. Stop crying like a little bitch because your console got banned. If you had the money to get the first one, then *bleep* go out and buy another one. Its the same lawsuit thats going on with the people who own blu-ray players(myself included). I burned a copy of a movie I owned and my player started up like normal, then out of nowhere, BAM! My unit locked up. Took it to the IT guy down the lane and he said if you play copied anything in a blu-ray player, it locks it up, $600 down the drain...I might take it apart and do some reverse engineering on my part to unlock it. I am pissed that I cant use it now but its my own fault...

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well obviously you are not in a country where the laws allow you to do this...I.E install a bypass product for either of your electronic equipment, "modchip" or for your bluray player- something that can unlock it to region free. the first part of your statement is correct about the software,as for hardware it is incorrect,where i am from anyrate.we own the hardware the physical case and it's internals,however like you say about the software thats pre-loaded into the console we agree upon by agreement by purchasing the unit.Yes if a person from here is banned from XBL for mis-conduct fair enough but we all were warned about the consequences but Microsoft want to rule the roost and they can't,they think they can but they can't.....it would be interesting to see how this court case would go where i live....Australia....Once again ,yes fair enough if a person got banned for XBL misconduct but as for playing B/Ups would make it a bit tough for Microsoft in a court of law here,Fair enough if the person was proven/caught deliberately pirating games and also the fools for playing an early internet release online before the release date of the game.now your not going to see any information in regards to this on your xbox 360 but if you are in Australia have a look on the very last page of your instruction manual and it states there that we may make one back up copy of this software for personal reasons....it states a heap of sub clauses in regards to this and what we must do if we were to sell the original copy.i have been informed by online friends that this wording does not appear in their game instruction manuals in the USA.our laws differ from the rest of the world.

Well I am from the United States and I hate the *bleep* laws here. I believe that if I fork over $600 for a *bleep* electronic device, I should be allowed to do whatever the hell I want with it. I recently got my player unlocked and it took some hacking-knowhow to get it unlocked but now I can play copied movies with no problem which is awesome. The PAL system is better for movie quality because it uses more pixels per frame thus giving a much better quality(anti-aliasing, buffering, pixel smoothness, ect) but I may just move to another country because the *bleep* laws for here suck balls. the laws in general just suck. You get ID'd for just about anything you buy:
Air Duster(I work with computers)
Sharpies(I burn movies)
Paint(I make custom game consoles)
Tobacco(I use these for my lungs)
Alcohol(Im not old enough to drink but still. I think European's only have to be 18 or something and thats bullshit that I am old enough to die for my country in war but I cant drink in my own country. Hell, if you look it and you go to a corner store in the ghetto, they wont id you. My brother in law is 18 and buys beer with no problem but god help me if I even look at it)

Originally posted by Dahaka128:

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Well I am from the United States and I hate the *bleep* laws here. I believe that if I fork over $600 for a *bleep* electronic device, I should be allowed to do whatever the hell I want with it. I recently got my player unlocked and it took some hacking-knowhow to get it unlocked but now I can play copied movies with no problem which is awesome. The PAL system is better for movie quality because it uses more pixels per frame thus giving a much better quality(anti-aliasing, buffering, pixel smoothness, ect) but I may just move to another country because the *bleep* laws for here suck balls. the laws in general just suck. You get ID'd for just about anything you buy:
Air Duster(I work with computers)
Sharpies(I burn movies)
Paint(I make custom game consoles)
Tobacco(I use these for my lungs)
Alcohol(Im not old enough to drink but still. I think European's only have to be 18 or something and thats bullshit that I am old enough to die for my country in war but I cant drink in my own country. Hell, if you look it and you go to a corner store in the ghetto, they wont id you. My brother in law is 18 and buys beer with no problem but god help me if I even look at it)

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Sounds like the typical self-entitlement attitude of a person your age. If you pay for the device you can do whatever you want to it, just don't expect the manufacturer to honor any warranties or anything when you mess with it. There are conditions on virtually everything you buy especially electronics and software. It does not matter what country you are in as most license agreements cover the same thing in just about every country.

Attitude? I don't have an attitude bro. And yes I know that if I break something that voids the warranty of a unit, its my fault. But if I don't even take the damn thing apart, how is that voiding it? Why cant I play a copied movie that I own the original to in the comfort of my own *bleep* house? What happened to the "Right to privacy"? *bleep* that law, there's no privacy about it. If someone has a valid search warrant, they can come into your home, go threw your shit, and leave. Hell, they can rip apart your mattress if they "feel it is something they must do to make sure there's nothing there that shouldn't be". This whole country is *bleep* in the head by hypocrite politicians and greedy health care companies. Who the hell are these bastards to tell me that I am not covered for a *bleep* life-saving operation? If I can be saved, put it on my damn bill and I will take out a loan for it.

Originally posted by Dahaka128:

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Attitude? I don't have an attitude bro. And yes I know that if I break something that voids the warranty of a unit, its my fault. But if I don't even take the damn thing apart, how is that voiding it? Why cant I play a copied movie that I own the original to in the comfort of my own *bleep* house? What happened to the "Right to privacy"? *bleep* that law, there's no privacy about it. If someone has a valid search warrant, they can come into your home, go threw your shit, and leave. Hell, they can rip apart your mattress if they "feel it is something they must do to make sure there's nothing there that shouldn't be". This whole country is *bleep* in the head by hypocrite politicians and greedy health care companies. Who the hell are these bastards to tell me that I am not covered for a *bleep* life-saving operation? If I can be saved, put it on my damn bill and I will take out a loan for it.

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Your choice of language is just proving the point further. This article is about Microsoft banning people for modding their consoles which changed the patented software on the XBox. The right to "Fair Use" is another topic and while some may not agree to it they have to protect their assets and I highly doubt the vast majority of the people are modding just so they can make 1 backup of their game. A DVD or Blu-Ray disc does not just stop playing all of a sudden unless it is scratched or damaged so the lesson here is take care of your discs. I yell at my 16 year old nephew all the time because he takes the discs out and just tosses them on the floor and his dressers and scratches them all up. Take care of them and they will last for virtually forever.

Originally posted by bobiroc:

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Originally posted by Dahaka128:

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Attitude? I don't have an attitude bro. And yes I know that if I break something that voids the warranty of a unit, its my fault. But if I don't even take the damn thing apart, how is that voiding it? Why cant I play a copied movie that I own the original to in the comfort of my own *bleep* house? What happened to the "Right to privacy"? *bleep* that law, there's no privacy about it. If someone has a valid search warrant, they can come into your home, go threw your shit, and leave. Hell, they can rip apart your mattress if they "feel it is something they must do to make sure there's nothing there that shouldn't be". This whole country is *bleep* in the head by hypocrite politicians and greedy health care companies. Who the hell are these bastards to tell me that I am not covered for a *bleep* life-saving operation? If I can be saved, put it on my damn bill and I will take out a loan for it.

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Your choice of language is just proving the point further. This article is about Microsoft banning people for modding their consoles which changed the patented software on the XBox. The right to "Fair Use" is another topic and while some may not agree to it they have to protect their assets and I highly doubt the vast majority of the people are modding just so they can make 1 backup of their game. A DVD or Blu-Ray disc does not just stop playing all of a sudden unless it is scratched or damaged so the lesson here is take care of your discs. I yell at my 16 year old nephew all the time because he takes the discs out and just tosses them on the floor and his dressers and scratches them all up. Take care of them and they will last for virtually forever.

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Ive spoken on this one before about making backup copies...I make backups of everything i own that is on a disc,it's quite funny you know Microsoft allows you to make a back up of one of their windows operating systems but won't allow you to make up a back up of one of their games ? you can take as much care of the disc as you want but kids will be kids and not respect our investments no matter how hard you make it for them to find the game,they always seem to find it....yes some purely go out of their way to obtaining copied games but not everybody,yes i do obtain "pirated" copies on the lesser anticipated games,but 98% of my game library is legit and the law states here that i can do that, back up what i have purchased but i must destroy the backup if i get rid of the original.I must also point out that the ban waves have not specifically targeted the so called "pirates" even legit owners of games and non modified 360's have also been banned...whats Microsofts exscuse for that ?
Believe it or not some companies do implement that kind of electronic trickery in their products Microsoft is one of them alongside Sony,it triggers something to make the piece of equipment go into a non working state.
Don't get me wrong we do have piracy laws here and the federal police come down hard on the offenders,everyone likes to save a $ everynow and then if Microsoft can we can to.

Okay, go out and buy a blu-ray player, put a copied disk in, and watch your system lock up... I keep mine in the cases

Originally posted by Dahaka128:

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Okay, go out and buy a blu-ray player, put a copied disk in, and watch your system lock up... I keep mine in the cases

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I'm not doubting your claims,as i said in my previous post ..
Believe it or not some companies do implement that kind of electronic trickery in their products Microsoft is one of them alongside Sony,it triggers something to make the piece of equipment go into a non working state.

Actually you did. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't you say "well if you kept them in the cases, they wouldn't get scratche up" or something in reference to my ablility to keep my disks in good condition? And its probably the same type of DRAM TAG system used in the game Chornicles of Riddick Assault on Dark Athena. It took hackers a long to crack that game but they did it and 2 hacker teams got banned or whatever the terminology is called. I think Razer911 did it or Reloaded from T.P.B. havn't looked into that game scene in a while so I dont remember 100%. The makers of the game actually challenged hackers to attempt it and many made great efforts but only 1(probably all by now) did it.

Originally posted by Dahaka128:

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Actually you did. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't you say "well if you kept them in the cases, they wouldn't get scratche up" or something in reference to my ablility to keep my disks in good condition? And its probably the same type of DRAM TAG system used in the game Chornicles of Riddick Assault on Dark Athena. It took hackers a long to crack that game but they did it and 2 hacker teams got banned or whatever the terminology is called. I think Razer911 did it or Reloaded from T.P.B. havn't looked into that game scene in a while so I dont remember 100%. The makers of the game actually challenged hackers to attempt it and many made great efforts but only 1(probably all by now) did it.

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Ummm no...i suggest you re-read the postings :) my opinions were far from what the actual person told you...