Plasma/LCD/Rear projection ...etc.
Which, viewing device, will best show the Blue Ray disc in all its glory?
When you go into stores the sales people differ on choice. My only explanation for this
is stores instruct their sales people to "plug" certain products.
Think personal, consumer, opinions are more valuable.

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Thanks for all the feedback, guys, both pro and con.

Up until now I couldn't even consider buying a Blu Ray player (or HD-DVD one for that matter) while the format war was still raging (which alone should tell you volumes about corporate greed) - and I'm not still convinced that getting one is the wisest thing to do while Sony's final blu-ray specifications are still (apparently?) in a bit of ongoing flux. I think it is a bit premature to buy (inve$t-long-term) into any new system who's basic, underlying specifications haven't been completely set in stone yet. And with the Sony-vs-Toshiba debacle, it's been one wild-&-whacky 'race to the finish line'.

But at least - with the current 'war' behind us, it's makes the decision to get a blu ray player a lot more sensible. (Of *course* I'm going to get one!) If I seem overly negative, maybe it's because I've seen so much crap foisted on us before, and I want to make it clear to Sony to avoid making these same mistakes in the future. I have very high hopes for Blu-Ray indeed, for myself all consumers alike.

I don't inherently dislike Sony (god only knows how much time I've spent in their retail stores ["The Sony Store"] and how many $$$$ I have spent on their (somewhat pricey) equipment over the years, but I'd hate to see them repeat the same mistakes that have been made over the years with regular DVD. (Which would take about another 500 posts to explain here!!) :-)

And don't forget, it's the 'Squeaky wheel that gets the grease'. If you don't make your concerns known, well......, maybe you will deserve all that you get.

Time to hunker down now and do some research on Profile 2.0 players.

-- Klingy --

Thanks for your work and help--it's good for all of us to have this discussion!

"Ah gots the Blues, Bay-Bay..."

Oh man, DEJA VU! Here we go again. "The Early-Adopter-Blues". Been there, done that, seen the movie already.

Just one quick example - the Sony BDP-S300:




It's friggin' ridiculous - this time coupled with more, unspecified, vague, potentially infuriating DRM. (I did warn you, but then most of you knew about it anyway). Says the Canadian Sony website:

Certain circumstances may limit/prevent Blu-ray Disc, CD or DVD Playback.

Well, if I can't get any more specific information than that, I won't be buying this model. And anyway, don't ALL Sony-licensed machines (regardless of brand name/manufacturer) need to adhere to the same DRM crap?

More woes - the USA Walmart price is $369.54. (I could live with that). Here in Canada, if I wanna trot down to the local Sony Retailer, they'll ORDER the player for me for $499.99. No they won't sell it to me. (It really is still way too early for this blu-ray stuff.)

$130.45 difference in the price. Same machine. (Minus shipping). Last time I checked, our Canadian Dollar was worth $1.02 US. What gives? We're being gouged again. And I still have yet to get a 1080p monitor/tv. Could get pricey.

There are NO blu-ray titles at my local walmart. On the USA Walmart website there are a few, but damned little that interested me, and most of which I've already seen multiple-multiple times.

"Same old Same old", as they say. The more things change the more they stay the same.

Methinks I'm going to wait to see shelf-fulls of blu-ray discs AND players before I budge this time.

gerbs, have you taken the plunge yet? Ryu77, what player are you using?

[Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...] :-)

A_Klingon:

A word of advice: Forget about the Sony standalones.

I recently got a Panasonic DMP-BD30 and it has played everything I've thrown at it (except of course for HD DVD's). There's at least a couple of other users here who will swear by their Panny's.

If you really need a 2.0 then wait for the DMP-BD50. It's got practically everything that the upcoming Sony S550 has.

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/630898

PanasonicDMP-BD50
Firmware – Street Date TBA
Video Decoder – Panasonic Uniphier
24fps - Yes
Audio Decoding
Dolby Digital - Onboard
DTS - Onboard
Dolby Digital Plus - Onboard/Bitstream
DTS – HR - Onboard/Bitstream
PCM - Onboard
Dolby True HD – Onboard/Bitstream
DTS HD Master Audio – Onboard/Bitstream
Analog Out Channels – 5.1
HDMI Channels – 7.1
HDMI Version - 1.3
Profile - 2.0
Ethernet - Yes

Sony BDP-S550
Firmware – Street Date Fall 2008
Video Decoder – Sigma SMP8634 Rev C
24fps - Yes
Audio Decoding
Dolby Digital - Onboard
DTS - Onboard
Dolby Digital Plus - Onboard/Bitstream
DTS – HR - Onboard/Bitstream
PCM - Onboard
Dolby True HD – Onboard/Bitstream
DTS HD Master Audio - Onboard/Bitstream
Analog Out Channels – 7.1
HDMI Channels – 7.1
HDMI Version – 1.3
Profile – 2.0
Ethernet - Yes

Thanks for that info, eatsushi!

I've always had good luck with any of the Panasonic equipment I've owned in the past.

Quote:

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If you really need a 2.0.....

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I don't need anything that Sony tells me I 'need' anymore, (in fact I don't need blu-ray, period; Sony's credibility has taken a shot to the solar plexis), but IF Blu-Ray does take over the Hi-Def optical disc market, I suspect we're all going to need Profile 2.0. and profile 2.01, and profile 2.10a beta, ......[bla-bla-bla]... and various other firmware updates/upgrades from here to eternity just to remain current-enough to ensure we'll be able to play the next $35 disc we buy.

I'll see if I can't find a .pdf file of the Panasonic DMP-BD30's owner's manual, and I'll check-out that thread you linked to.

Thanks again! :)

Hello Kling-on,
The dust will be long settled before I buy BlueRay, disc or machine. My guess is that it will not be Sony. The economy is headed for the dumps and most people will not be in a financial position to start dumping money for unproven, hyped-up products so development is going to be slowed down. For now I am very content to keep upscaling to a 42" LCD. No, I am not a Ludite there is just too much baggage to bite now. Up grading to BluRay also means new burners, getting a high def video camera, lots of new software, etc. etc. Good luck to the rich kids down in the oil fields, have fun keeping the rest of us afloat! Love, Peace and Fun to all!

Quote:

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For now I am very content to keep upscaling to a 42" LCD.

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I see nothing wrong with that approach at all!, gerbs.

Myself right now, I'm LEARNING (_researching_, not buying.)

Quote:

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...there is just too much baggage to bite now.

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Agreed. Baggage galore is all over Bu-Ray, and what a consumer has to know in order to make an intelligent Blu-Ray choice, is shameful. Sony does NOT make this easy. DVD was never this hard. See my note below to eatsushi.

@eatsushi :

I have a much better understanding of the Blu-Ray Profiles now, ie :

Profile 1.0 - aka "Initial Standard Profile"
Profile 1.1 - aka "Final Standard Profile" (and/or) "Bonus View"
Profile 2.0 - aka "BD-Live"

As gerbs mentions above, this is a fair amount of baggage for the 'average' consumer to have to wade through. Life used to be simpler. The only reason I'm even looking at Blu-Ray now is because of HD-DVD's recent demise.

The discs are expensive, and the players, moreso.

I can't see why I wouldn't be completely happy with anything past Profile 1.1. My hi-def viewing "needs" are very simple. I want a _great_ HD picture on disc, it's that simple - something worthwhile to justify the added Blu Ray expense over what gerbs already does - upscaling SD DVD to 720p, or whatever level his player is capable of. This can be accomplished much more inexpensively than going Blu Ray.

I have no desire for Internet content, so I don't need BD-Live. (Profile 2.0)

The Panasonic DMP-BD30K Blu Ray Player is a _very_ handsome standalone, but at $500 US, it had better have more than just a pretty face. I love it's remote control. If I can get past my current DRM concerns, I'm seriously considering this player. But I have other, severe concerns about Blu Ray that have nothing to do with this player.

In the cNet review I read, the Panny has SUPERB video characteristics, much better than many competing products, and with SD (reg'lar) DVD, the most important video characteristics are all handled very well.

I don't know how important this Panny's lack of Ethernet jack, is.

As I say, I don't care about online content, but the lack of ethernet jack (seems) to preclude one's ability to obtain future firmware upgrades. Whatever happened to the concept of simply downloading an (official) firmware upgrade file, burning it to a standard CD, then upgrading that way? I have done that before with NO problems.

The sheer volume of available Blu Ray audio formats is just mind-boggling. There's just too many of them. My guess is 95% of Mass Joe Public will simply use Dolby Digital and let it go at that.

The little front panel SD card-slot is a nice idea, but I don't know how often I'd use it.

Right now, I think wading through the mountain of Blu Ray specs is a labour-of-love for those who can afford it, and are willing to spend the time learning it. As I say, Sony does not make choosing Blu Ray easy. (Sure, any idiot can just run out and a buy a player, then keep his fingers crossed for the best), but that is a Fool's Errand, I think.

And statements like the aforementioned "Certain circumstances may limit/prevent Blu-Ray Disc, CD or DVD Playback.", just turn my stomach.

A new "Best Buy" store just opened in our area. Since our local Walmarts (we have several) haven't got a Blu Ray in sight, I'll see if Best Buy carries this Panny (or anything else).

Thank you for all your help, eatsushi. -- Klingy --

Klingy, here's my experience to aid your research.

My Blu-ray player is my PS3. As you've probably heard, it is one of the most fully equipped Blu-ray players on the market and at about the same price as most stand alones... The choice was obvious for me as I am a gamer also.

I also have a Samsung HD870 up-convert DVD player (720p or 1080i). Which gives a fantastic picture. Samsung have made some very good quality up-convert DVD players. Here's a couple links to my Samsung player...

From Samsung Website Hong Kong: http://www.samsung.com/he/products/dvdpl...s/dvd_hd870.asp

Review from Dooyoo: http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/dvd-player/samsung-dvd-hd870/1052066/

My comparison between Blu-ray (PS3) and up-convert DVD player (Samsung HD870)...

Note: Both my players are connected via HDMI and both are set to the same picture settings on the TV (Colour, Contrast, etc.). My TV is a Sharp Aquos 46" 1080p LCD.

My intital thoughts were that Blu-ray on the PS3 was no better than the picture quality from my HD870. However, as I later found out this was from a poor choice of Blu-ray movie titles to cast a first impression from. After watching a few more titles I could see there was quite a substantial difference to be seen. What I did was compare the SD titles directly against the HD (Blu-ray) titles on my PS3. I freezed many frames and did a thorough analysis. I could easily see the difference in detail. In the Blu-ray version I could see much more detail and texture. For example there was a scene where the character was shown up close in a car. In the Blu-ray version I could see all the details of his hand on the steering wheel. I could see all the lines, wrinkles, hairs (lol) etc. In the SD version I could see some detail but there was noise surrounding the high texture areas.

Remember, Blu-ray isn't just about picture quality. Don't forget the sound. The included audio (main track) is identical to the studio original. I have heard from others that the uncompressed (5.1 PCM) or lossless audio (Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD) is mind blowing. I am yet to experience it as I don't have a HDMI v1.3 AV receiver yet. I intend to upgrade in the future but finding $2000+ to replace my 6 month old $800 receiver just doesn't make sense at this point (for some crazy reason my receiver also lacks analog 5.1, so I can't do it that way either).

I hope this helps. :-D

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Hi RYU !!!! :-)

Just shaved & took a shower; it's 10:00 PM; heading out to work in a hurry; (I work till 8:00 AM tomorrow); have printed out your post; will read @ work; gotta RUN; will reply tommorrow ASAP; much obliged; keep the faith; luv thy neighbour; and I'll catch ye on the fly!! :-)

[pant, pant......] Whooooooooooooooooooooooooosh !!!!!

Originally posted by eatsushi:

---

A word of advice: Forget about the Sony standalones.

I recently got a Panasonic DMP-BD30 and it has played everything I've thrown at it (except of course for HD DVD's). There's at least a couple of other users here who will swear by their Panny's.

---

+1 on the Panasonic recommendation.

I have the Profile 1.0 DMP-BD10 and it's been a solid and trouble-free performer for me. It handles most everything including scratched and smudged Netflix rentals, plus Profile 1.1 and 2.0 discs (main movie of course).

I'm due for a player upgrade this year and my preferences are the following - in no particular order:

Panasonic DMP-BD50
Marantz BD8002
Denon DVD-3800BD

Like eatsushi said - forget the Sony's.

Originally posted by A_Klingon:

---

I suspect we're all going to need Profile 2.0. and profile 2.01, and profile 2.10a beta, ......[bla-bla-bla]... and various other firmware updates/upgrades from here to eternity just to remain current-enough to ensure we'll be able to play the next $35 disc we buy.

---

To me it looks like profile 2.0 is a final spec. From what I understand there are 3 profiles and that is all there will be. Profile 1.0, Profile 1.1 (Bonus View) and Profile 2.0 (BD Live). Juankerr has made a fantastic post explaining the Blu-ray profiles on eatsushi's "An Updated Master List Of Players" thread. Here's a link to juankerr's post...

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/630898/3829811

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Hi again, Ryu77.

Thanks for the picture-quality evaluations from your PS3 and Samsung HD870 machines! Subjective reviews always have more value to me than published specs. I am *certain* I'm going to be enjoying Blu Ray's overall quality regardless of which machine I wind up purchasing.

I can see there is much much I have to consider before buying. It's becoming a bit more obvious(-ish) to me after reading a few cNet reviews, that I may have to wait for the Profile 2.0 machines to arrive in greater quantity before I make a decision because it (seems) they're the only ones (???) which have the Ethernet port for future firmware upgrades. I'm not sure if that's true. Profile 2.0 only seems to require an "Internet" connection. I don't know if an Ethernet port and 'Internet Connection' mean one-in-the-same thing.

I swore I would never buy a machine that required a mandatory internet connection, but how else can one get future upgrades? As I mentioned in an above post, I am used to upgrading via a firmware upgrade file burned to a cd-r disc, (which wouldn't require the ethernet port.) This method has always worked famously for me.

BEST BUY (Canada) currently has 3 Blu Ray machines on offer:

SHARP BD-HP20U - $550 - Bad(ish) cNet Review
SAMSUNG BD-P1400 - $500 - Bad(ish) cNet Review
SONY BDP-S300 - $500 - (Didn't check cNet)

These are the Canadian BEST BUY prices. In general, the USA BEST BUY prices average about $100-$150 lower for the same machine(s). (Bloody ridiculous! - The Canadian dollar is worth more than the American dollar right now.) None of these players are Profile 2.0.

I _think_ it might be premature to choose a Profile 1.1 machine, then wish I had waited a bit longer for the 2.0 units to arrive in greater quantity.

So....... still looking, still waiting, still reading.... !!

- Klingy -

Thnx for replying, dblbogey7!

Quote:

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Like eatsushi said - forget the Sony's.

---

Well, (I'll keep an eye on them of course), but their player's don't hold nearly the same interest for me that they once did. And don't forget, regardless of which actual brand name you choose, it's got SONY technology written all over it anyway.

One of your mentioned preferences holds my interest too, especially as it would be my first blu-ray player - the Panasonic DMP-BD50 Profile 2.0 machine. cNet has yet to publish a review on that one.

-- Mike --

Originally posted by A_Klingon:

---

I swore I would never buy a machine that required a mandatory internet connection, but how else can one get future upgrades? As I mentioned in an above post, I am used to upgrading via a firmware upgrade file burned to a burned cd-r disc, (which wouldn't require the ethernet port.)

---

You don't need an ethernet port to update the firmware on BluRay players. How do you think we've been updating our 1.0 machines? The makers make the firmware update ISO's available online and you can download and burn them to CD-R's.

Even if you have a 2.0 machine you don't have to have it connected to the internet at all if you don't want to. It's NOT MANDATORY especially if you're not interested in web-based extras.

Quote:

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The makers make the firmware update ISO's available online and you can download and burn them to CD-R's.

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* PERFECT * !!!!! :-)

Quote:

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Even if you have a 2.0 machine you don't have to have it connected to the internet at all if you don't want to. It's NOT MANDATORY especially if you're not interested in web-based extras.

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* PERFECT * (Multiplied by 2X) !!! :-)

Wow! Things are beginning to look UP!

That would suggest a Profle 1.1 (or even 1.0) player would be all I need. Disc playback is all I'm concerned about.

I've been fishing through the Blu-Ray FAQ's, dblbogey7 - it's gonna take a while.

Originally posted by A_Klingon:

---

regardless of which actual brand name you choose, it's got SONY technology written all over it anyway.

---

Actually the Panasonic players have very little Sony in it - if any. The BD30 and BD50 have the proprietary "UniPhier" video decoding chip developed by Panasonic themselves and also used by the Denon and Marantz high-end models. It's also known that Matsushita/Panasonic make their own drives and even supply their burners for Sony's PC's and laptops.

BTW I also have the Panasonic DMP-BD30 and I'm very impressed with this machine.

Quote:

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Actually the Panasonic players have very little Sony in it - if any.

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Semantics, juankerr, semantics.

If you had no Sony, you'd have no blu-ray. If you had no blu-ray, then you'd have no Panasonic DMP-BD30s/50s.

Ergo, you have Sony - like it or not. (Just with a healthy dose of Panasonic thrown in there!)

I've been reading nothing but praise for Panasonic's blu-ray machines. They remain high on my list.

Originally posted by A_Klingon:

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Semantics, juankerr, semantics.

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I don't think it's a simple matter of semantics. Panasonic does own a significant chunk of the BluRay patent pool and contributed a lot to the IP:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=994913&page=2

Quote:

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These are the companies that have contributed IP to Blu-ray.

As for their relative importance in that list, I'll give the top five:

1. Panasonic
2. Samsung
3. Sony
4. Philips
5. Pioneer

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Exactly right dblbogey7. I was thinking of linking to that thread too.

Bottom line, Panasonic has the ability to design and build a BD player from the ground up without any help or influence from Sony. Based on my previous experience with their players, I'd put them on top of my list ahead of Sony's.

Quote:

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I don't think it's a simple matter of semantics.

---

Psssst...... hey juankerr, c'mere for a sec - let me whisper in your ear.....

..... I - Don't - Care ...... :)

I am fully aware that there are several mega-corps who have shared/pooled their various proprietary technologies with each other for years in the forging of the Blu-Ray standard we know today. I don't need to have their names spelled out, (but thank you anyway).

Sony's DRM is everywhere. In Panasonic's machines, in your breakfast cereal, in the air you breathe, in the movies you watch, in the kiss you gave your girlfriend yesterday. :)

I wish it wasn't so, but what-ya-gonna-do ??? [shrug]

OOops!

Sorry juankerr and dblbogey7! My "Bad" - I got you two mixed up!

(Been a long night - just got off work; gotta hit the sack).

Peace - love. --Mike--

Originally posted by juankerr:

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Bottom line, Panasonic has the ability to design and build a BD player from the ground up without any help or influence from Sony. Based on my previous experience with their players, I'd put them on top of my list ahead of Sony's.

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I agree with you there. In the standalone game I think Sony is just playing catch-up right now. The fact that high end makers Denon and Marantz have chosen Panny's UniPhier chip speaks a lot to their design abilities.

The other thing I found out about the Panasonic DMP-BD50 is that it will have the ability to play DivX and DivX HD files on disc. I may just eBay my BD30 and get this one when it comes out just for this feature.

http://www.blu-ray.com/players/players.php?id=17&show=specs

Originally posted by eatsushi:

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The other thing I found out about the Panasonic DMP-BD50 is that it will have the ability to play DivX and DivX HD files on disc. I may just eBay my BD30 and get this one when it comes out just for this feature.

http://www.blu-ray.com/players/players.p...w=specs

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Ok, that just sealed the deal for me! A new player that has support for DivX and DivX HD files, hot damn! I have been waiting for this to come along for some time now, I'm with you on this one eatsushi.

Update: I thought I had read somewhere that this player would have 7.1 analog outputs? Looks like it just has 5.1. MSRP of 599? Is this going to be a standard price you think?

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At least paramount is keeping by their word and this just goes to show you that their is still loyalty in the world that we live in today.