If Onkyo decide to go dual format - this is hardly a concrete fact right now - than that is hardly a case of having "second thoughts" about HD DVD.

If they were planning to drop HD DVD altogether then that would be.

The truth is that Onkyo are not a massive CE company like the more well-known brands.
They have a rep for good quality but at a price.

So it's hardly surprising that they would move to attempt to cover as much of the market as they can.

If people like Samsung & LG have recently abandoned their previously 'exclusive' BD manufacturing stance to go dual format and produce a machine that plays both formats then it can't be so surprising that the smaller CE companies do the same.

......and just to add to the rumour mill this might all be a crock anyways, rumours are that the Onkyo HD DVD player has already been demo'd to some of their dealers.

Look like a lot of HD-DVD backers are not going exclusive to HD-DVD rightfully so with Blu-ray tracking HD-DVD down in Jan goes to show Blu-ray has very good support.I can see the reason why they said that in Jan they didn't know Blu-ray was going to out sell HD-DVD like they are now but a dual format isn't bad but really painfully for HD-DVD,They have not thing but Universal in there corner.Wont be long before they go dual format because they had a major shake up last month so i'm waiting to hear HD-DVD say they going dual format before the years out.

Originally posted by NexGen76:

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Look like a lot of HD-DVD backers are not going exclusive to HD-DVD

---

- OK, let's look at this.

So, we get 1 disputed rumour about 1 small/middling sized hardware manufacturing firm and it's "Look like a lot of HD-DVD backers" to you, eh?

Are you always prone to that sort of laughable over-reaction or is it just when there's the slightest possibility of bashing HD DVD that you roll this nonsense out, hmmmmmm?

Originally posted by NexGen76:

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rightfully so with Blu-ray tracking HD-DVD down in Jan goes to show Blu-ray has very good support.

---

Do you honestly imagine in Jan 2007, months after the US & Japanese PS3 launches, that nobody thought the BD-equipped PS3 would not boost BD movie sales numbers?

That's just absurd.

But the really interesting issue in all that is that 3million or so PS3 have led to so few BD movie disc sales
(approx 1.2 million BD discs have sold since they started).

Total high def sales (both formats) combined are only just over 2 million - in contrast SD DVD (which is the real competitor each format has) sold over 750 million units in 2006 alone.
That's why the ridiculous little claims based on ratio & percentage leads
(a lead btw which is only at 60:40 right now)
are so absurd.
The war really hasn't got going yet.....but we can already see just how poor PS3 is at shifting BD movies.

.....why do you think LG & Samsung bailed out and abandoned their previous 'BD exclusive' status as hardware manufacturers?

.....and when LG & Samsung are joined later this year by 1 and probably another 2nd well known Japanese hardware manufacturer abandoning it's 'BD exclusive' hardware manufacturing status I wonder how you'll try and spin that as of no consequence for BD and bad for HD DVD!? :lol:

Originally posted by NexGen76:

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I can see the reason why they said that in Jan they didn't know Blu-ray was going to out sell HD-DVD like they are now

---

- I think you're obviously just letting your own prejudice, wishful 'thinking' and unfounded imaginings cloud any sensible judgement of this.

It ridiculous to claim that in Jan 2007 (several months after the US PS3 launch) that no-one knew PS3 would not sell BD in some sort of quantity.

Originally posted by NexGen76:

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but a dual format isn't bad but really painfully for HD-DVD

---

- Rubbish.

You'll be trying to tell us all next that LG & Samsung abandoning their previous 'BD exclusive' manufacturing stance was a good thing for BD next.

Spin on, right?

Originally posted by NexGen76:

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They have not thing but Universal in there corner.

---

- So, they have 'nothing' except Universal eh - according to you.
*rolls eyes*

Well that's an odd version of 'nothing' cos it's obviously 'nothing' except
- multiple international award winning picture and sound quality;
- a full range of HD DVD players;
- a pricing structure BD can't hope to match;
- excellent international film studio support (ie a far less 'anglo-centric' group of movies in support......and, for that matter, HD DVD is not stuck with a situation where they have little besides a bunch of samey US action film & their inevitable 'done to death' sequels of a particular type aimed at the young PS3 demographic)
- and a lot more available content by the end of this year
(600 HD DVD movies).

.....and the one 'nothing' they do have is one I much prefer, they have 'nothing' to do with Sony & BD's additional layers of DRM.

Here's a list of studios supporting HD DVD, there's a hell of a lot more there than just Universal -

- Warner
- Universal
- Paramount
- New Line/HBO
- Weinstein
- Magnolia
- Brentwood Home Video
- BCI
- DVD International
- Eagle Rock Entertainment
- Concert Hot Spot
- Image Entertainment
- Interscope
- Entertainment In Video
- Goldhil Home Media
- HDNet
- Razor Digital Entertainment
- Rhino Entertainment
- Discovery Channel
- Tartan Video
- MTI Home Video
- Studio Canal
- 2Entertain/BBC
- Pathe
- Momentum Pictures
- Manga Films

Yeah, but that's 'nothing' to you, right?

Tell me what else BD has except for the PS3, eh?

There's a case of a format with very very little besides a mere games console.

In terms of CE support it split pretty evenly now
(when you take account the stand-alone players made by one producer and rebadged - the 1st Philips was a Samsung and the 1st Sony was a Pioneer for instance).

(.....and in a world of easy downloadable content why should anyone even care that BD has some degree of content exclusivity?)

Face it, without PS3 BD died long ago.......and PS3 alone is not enough to take the a/v market.
Wake up.

It's UMD & PSP all over again.....ie sure they'll still sell movies, even tens and occasionally hundreds of thousands maybe, but nevertheless it'll be in nothing like the numbers they originally hoped for & it will not be anything much beyond a PS3 proprietary format.

We've already seen the percentage/ratio gap drop from 70:30 to 60:40 once the PS3 boost worked it's way out (all those money-off vouchers had to have some effect) and as HD DVD prices continue to fall and ownership grow we'll see the gap reduce even further - by the end of this year it may be that HD DVD is back out in front.

PS3 is not launchable again.

Originally posted by NexGen76:

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Wont be long before they go dual format because they had a major shake up last month so i'm waiting to hear HD-DVD say they going dual format before the years out.

---

- Oh Jayzusss wept, here we go again.

This is just more of the BS the BD fanclub have been trying to spread since Jan 2007
(we're almost 6 months on now and there are no changes to be seen whatsoever - in fact what we do see are Universal guys standing up and publicly saying this is not happening and Universal releasing large amounts of HD DVD movie discs).

First of all it was a bunch of rumours that some top guy (and supposedly the only top guy in favour of HD DVD) had retired, resigned or been sacked.
Then it was claims that the contracts that supposedly tied Universal to HD DVD were now expired.

Still when you're trying to spread the spin & propaganda who cares what Universal themselves keep on saying and actually doing, right?

Next you'll be telling us all how you heard from some 'insider' somewhere sometime how Microsoft are bring out a BD drive in a month or 2, right?

Nevermind the facts tho, eh?

:P

I think High Def video is a niche market just like high Def audio such as SACD.The majority of people are happy with CD and DVD.It's loads cheaper,far more titles available,don't need High Def TV,don't need new audio decoder,don't need HDMI either.

The only reason why they developed it was to make more profit from
releasing films all over again and adding stronger protection
against piracy to increase more profit which failed again!

I watched Spiderman 3 at a new Apollo cinema and I noticed the picture quality was average in that it was grainy on the large screen just like so many others.Why anyone wants to capture this
grain in detail at home is absurd.DVD already captures a load of this
grain on a good transfer and shows more than enough detail on a 40"
TV at 480P/576P.

The only reason High Def tv's are attractive to me is because games
can show all the detail that makes playing games easier on the eye.
You can now surf the net with a PC connected to your TV without
eye strain.As for High Def movie players,forget it,they are not
good value and with IP TV,Cable and Sat all offering broader alternatives such as regular HD programmes aswell as movies,this
format war is already looking like a big mistake.

I think HD is here to stay......but I agree that the rate of change to it will be the deciding factor in this little 'war'.

First of all there aren't that many HD TVs about (in the USA it's less than 30% market penetration and in Europe far far less).

Secondly the important point folks keep determinedly missing is that these formats really are not competing with each other, they are competing with SD DVD
(which as you rightly say ChromeMud, many if not most are more than happy with right now).

The big deal in all of this will be who can get their high def player down to SD DVD pricing levels first and that is a race that HD DVD is miles out in front of atm......and we know an even better lower HD DVD pricing structure is to follow very soon too.

HD DVD has every chance of offering sub $200/£100 players by X-mas.....hell in the USA they are (with a known brand player - Toshiba) down to a fraction over $250 right now with 5 free movies.

So, $100 - $150 (or even lower?) for those inexpensive Chinese players in the big shopping malls due at the end of the year?
BD just can't compete with that.

The switch from SD DVD to HD DVD will be seamless because it will not seem like such a big deal to replace your old SD DVD player with a better HD DVD player that can do everything your old player did and which is not very expensive.

Content (in the places it might be thin or lacking) will follow the money.

Your can argue all you want but it don't change the fact that Blu-ray is out pacing HD-DVD 2-1 & 3-1 in some reports.Thats facts argue with that all you want but you or i can't change that.I refuse to argue or get in a debate with someone that is misguided be low are are a list of June HD release for both formats the one's i got a X beside are major movie titles from box office numbers.HD-DVD 4 Blu-ray 9.How can HD-DVD gain any ground when Blu-ray has just about all the major movie titles carriers,all but one.See im not going to twist story into lies,i have not problem with HD-DVD but they need some exclusive if they going to over take Blu-ray which not going to happen right now my friend.

HD-DVD release for June

June 05, 2007

* Breach (Universal)X
* Coming to America (Paramount)
* The Cowboys (Warner)
* Norbit (DreamWorks)X
* Rio Bravo (Warner)
* Trading Places (Paramount)

June 12, 2007

* Black Christmas (2006) (Weinstein)
* Born on the Fourth of July (Universal)
* Bruce Almighty (Universal)
* Daylight (Universal)
* Harsh Times (Weinstein)
* Liar Liar (Universal)
* Monty Python's The Meaning of Life (Universal)
* Music and Lyrics (Warner)
* Sneakers (Universal)

June 26, 2007

* American Me (Universal)
* Army of Darkness (Re-issue) (Universal)
* Being John Malkovich (Universal)
* Black Snake Moan (Paramount)X
* Bulletproof (Universal)
* Dead Silence (Universal)X
* Deep Purple: Live at Montreux 2006 (Rhino)
* Freedom: Vol. 1 (Bandai Visual)
* Hustle & Flow (Paramount)
* Mallrats (Universal)
* Meet Joe Black (Universal)
* Mystery Men (Universal)
* Santana: Hymns for Peace - Live at Montreux 2004 (Rhino)
* Unleashed (Re-issue) (Universal)
* The Watcher (Universal)
* Yes: Live at Montreux (Rhino)

Blu-Ray June Releases

June 05, 2007

* Blood Diamond (Warner)X
* Bruce Springsteen with the Sessions Band: Live in Dublin (Sony BMG)
* Coming to America (Paramount)
* The Cowboys (Warner)
* Hellboy (Sony)X
* The Messengers (Sony)X
* Norbit (Paramount)X
* Rescue Me: The Complete Third Season (Sony)
* Rio Bravo (Warner)
* Trading Places (Paramount)

June 12, 2007

* Blood & Chocolate (Sony)
* Cruel Intentions (Sony)
* Daddy's Little Girls (Lionsgate)X
* Ghost Rider (Sony)X
* Music and Lyrics (Warner)
* Primeval (Buena Vista)X
* Seven Years in Tibet (Sony)

June 19, 2007

* Bridge to Terebithia (Buena Vista)X

June 26, 2007

* Black Snake Moan (Paramount)X
* Hustle & Flow (Paramount)

Originally posted by NexGen76:

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Your can argue all you want but it don't change the fact that Blu-ray is out pacing HD-DVD 2-1 & 3-1 in some reports.

---

- Precisely, in some reports.

Neilson has them at 60:40 and as they take numbers from more outlets than anyone I'll go by their numbers as the best indicator.

You're still studiously ignoring the fact that this market is tiny.

60:40 when BD has 3 million or so PS3s compared to HD DVDs 250,000 is not a negligible fact, it's highly pertinent.

Originally posted by NexGen76:

---

How can HD-DVD gain any ground when Blu-ray has just about all the major movie titles carriers,all but one

---

- Because first of all HD DVD does have plenty of actual content
(and Universal is about the biggest of them all).
Warner releases (even using the same codec) are invariably better on HD DVD and Paramount release on HD DVD.

There's no shortage of excellent content on HD DVD.

You might also be interested to know that Studio Canal is bigger than Fox or MGM.

A study was done a while back and BD has potentially 48,000 titles and HD DVD has 40,000.

Secondly as we can see with, for instance, HD DVD versions of Underworld Evolution or Terminator 2 (extended edition), HD DVD's region-free status means that, where and when international publishing rights allow, notions of BD exclusive content are a very narrow and usually 'US-centric' idea.

Thirdly PS3 owners just aren't buying enough movies.
PS3 attachment rates are appalling - but where's the surprise there, it's a games machine first and foremost, the owners put their money mainly into games.

(1.2 million BD movies bought to date by an almost exclusive - :P - PS3 3 million-strong BD ownership verses 998,000 HD DVD movies bought by the owners of 250,000 various HD DVD players).

It's still true that as HD DVD prices fall the number of HD DVD movies sold continues to rise, the gap is closing, in the last 2 months it was around and even slightly better than 70:30 and it is now 60:40.
There's no point saying you can't see it it's still the truth of the matter.

I've no desire to get into circular arguments either but when I see highly partial info I think it's only fair to put the other side of the story.

I've just had enough of the lying BS the BD side come out with on this.

So, to return to the thread topic, you've nothing to say then about how this disputed rumour about a small/middling CE manufacturer has come to mean "lot of HD DVD backers" to you then, hmmmmm? :P

Don't forget that Fox is MIA till Dec because of their precise and anti-consumer BD+ comes out.

Originally posted by ChromeMud:

---

I think High Def video is a niche market just like high Def audio such as SACD.The majority of people are happy with CD and DVD.It's loads cheaper,far more titles available,don't need High Def TV,don't need new audio decoder,don't need HDMI either.

The only reason why they developed it was to make more profit from
releasing films all over again and adding stronger protection
against piracy to increase more profit which failed again!

I watched Spiderman 3 at a new Apollo cinema and I noticed the picture quality was average in that it was grainy on the large screen just like so many others.Why anyone wants to capture this
grain in detail at home is absurd.DVD already captures a load of this
grain on a good transfer and shows more than enough detail on a 40"
TV at 480P/576P.

The only reason High Def tv's are attractive to me is because games
can show all the detail that makes playing games easier on the eye.
You can now surf the net with a PC connected to your TV without
eye strain.As for High Def movie players,forget it,they are not
good value and with IP TV,Cable and Sat all offering broader alternatives such as regular HD programmes aswell as movies,this
format war is already looking like a big mistake.

---

I have a PS3 and there is a clear difference in picture quality when you're watching a well made DVD compared to a well made Blu Ray Disc. I notice you mentioned a 40" TV at 480P/576P. I'm assuming that it's not a hi-def TV based on that resolution. If it is a hi-def TV I would borrow a hi-def player to try it out. It not only the resolution that's better. The brightness and color is much improved. I do have to agree though the with hi-def cable there really isn't a good reason for me to buy Blu-ray movies. I will still purchase some movies that are my favorites. But I'm definitely not buying movies like I did with DVD. I found it to be a waste after accumutating about 300. I now have about 100 and they are collecting dust due to hi-def cable and Blu-ray rentals from Netflix.

Quote:

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He even hinted that a dual-format unit might be a possibility.

---

If he decides on this dual format he will make more money this way that just choosing sides. But they are still deciding soo it will be some time yet.

Now that Toshiba already has a HD-DVD player for $300 I think I have made my choice. The first format to hit a price that the everyday consumer can afford will capture the market. SD-DVD is doing so good right now because it is cheap enough for even the skeptical old geezers to give it a chance.

Either way, given Onkyo's reputation, at least their player will be a solid production.

These reports are slightly incorrect. Onkyo representatives at CEDIA Expo in September 2006 said that they support both HD DVD and Blu-ray. At CES in Jan. 2007, they announced an HD DVD player would be introduced this year. At the event in April 2007, where the new Onkyo AVR lineup was introduced, and Keith Haas made his statement about Onkyo looking at both formats, there were dealer presentations going on. The dealers were informed that an HD DVD player would be introduced in October 2007 for $1199. That may very well be a combo player (HD DVD and Blu-ray), but it will not be a Blu-ray only player.

Some of the "press" seem to be trying to imply that Onkyo will abandon HD DVD and go Blu-ray exclusive. That is simply not the case.

I would think that all the major high end AV manufactures would support both camps if nothing else, just to maintain their reputations.

Of course the almighty dollar would have nothing to do with this decision.