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| stumpied (Junior Member) 26 July 2007 13:32 |
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Oh no! Everyone new Target was going to be the one to decide which format wins.
What about all the other BD player manufactures? I can't imagine they'd be very happy not being able to see the shelves of Target as well if there is money to be made?
This is getting to be a big joke already. |
| ZippyDSM (AfterDawn Addict) 26 July 2007 13:59 |
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Originally posted by stumpied:
Oh no! Everyone new Target was going to be the one to decide which format wins.
What about all the other BD player manufactures? I can't imagine they'd be very happy not being able to see the shelves of Target as well if there is money to be made?
This is getting to be a big joke already.
its mostly lil pointless skirmisher's but if you gain enough ground you will win only when the big guns start firing and its another 2-4 years for that. |
| spydah (Junior Member) 26 July 2007 15:35 |
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I dont think it will really matter which format you use in a couple years the dual format players and burners should be capable of handling both. At that point it will be a preference rather then either one winning.
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| spydah (Junior Member) 26 July 2007 15:36 |
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I dont think it will really matter which format you use in a couple years the dual format players and burners should be capable of handling both. At that point it will be a preference rather then either one winning.
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| spydah (Junior Member) 26 July 2007 15:37 |
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double post my bad
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| Cinnjerm (Junior Member) 26 July 2007 22:27 |
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Quote:
Originally posted by stumpied:
Oh no! Everyone new Target was going to be the one to decide which format wins.
What about all the other BD player manufactures? I can't imagine they'd be very happy not being able to see the shelves of Target as well if there is money to be made?
This is getting to be a big joke already.
its mostly lil pointless skirmisher's but if you gain enough ground you will win only when the big guns start firing and its another 2-4 years for that.
I still say price decides everything and its not going to matter how much sony is paying people to endorse BD once HDDVD dips below that 200 dollar sweet spot. Clearly HDDVD is going to be the first to do it and unless sony follows immediately after toshiba will most likely corner the market. |
| russwhit (Newbie) 27 July 2007 2:10 |
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Come on people, enough small wins like this and the battle will be over. If places like Target stock blue ray then people without any previous knowledge of the formats will just buy what is on offer.
Its people that shop in these stores that will decide the format war the more normal stores blue ray is in then the more it is sold, customers like my mum who just wants to buy one of those new fangled HDDDDDD players with RAYBLUE on it.
Mass coverage to all the masses young and old will decide what will win.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 27 July 2007 2:12
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| borhan9 (AfterDawn Addict) 27 July 2007 2:15 |
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The only reason IMO companies are choosing one format over the other is the fact they want to minimize cost and choosing one format over the other is cost cutting for them. They are not really choosing which format they think will win but which format is cheaper to buy.
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| NexGen76 (Member) 27 July 2007 2:26 |
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Just another nail in HD- DVD coffin.Blockbusters first now Target who's next? |
| hughjars (Inactive) 27 July 2007 4:41 |
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It's just another ridiculous little bit of PR more like.
What kind of ludicrous version of the definition of "exclusive" are we supposed to believe in now, huh?
"Exclusive" as in not at all "exclusive"?!
BlockBuster was supposed to be Blu-ray "exclusive" but carries HD DVD in 250 stores and has a regular unaffected on-line service.
Target have an excusive deal on one blu-ray player (which Sony are paying for)......but still do HD DVD discs on-line and in their stores.
And now East Coast chain BJ’s Wholesale Club are still selling HD-DVD online.
It's just symptomatic of the laughable spin & BS the Blu-ray side have indulged in since this so-called 'war' began.
Some of us aren't so easily fooled.......and with high def of both flavours still less than 1% of the total movie disc market the idea that everything is being decided right now or that things are set in stone is just absurd.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 27 July 2007 4:42
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| NexGen76 (Member) 27 July 2007 5:23 |
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BlockBuster was supposed to be Blu-ray "exclusive" but carries HD DVD in 250 stores and has a regular unaffected on-line service.
250 stores lol.... BB currently have 5192 stores across the U.S. International stores totaled 4,291, in 2006 including 426 in Canada, 897 in Britain, and 408 in Australia. It has been claimed that there are more than 43 million U.S. households with Blockbuster membership.Majority of BlockBuster revenue comes from in store not online.So 250 stores is needle in a Hay stack don't you think.Blu-Ray movies are now visible in BB Rental chainS as of July 5 2007 thats almost 6,000 stores we talking about but you claim of 250 is not even noticeable.
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It's just symptomatic of the laughable spin & BS the Blu-ray side have indulged in since this so-called 'war' began.
When are you going to look past your childish rant & raves to see that Blu-Ray camp had nothing to do with this or Targets move it was a business decision.Right now Blu-Ray is selling better than HD-DVD no matter how HD-DVD try to tell people that a PS3 isn't a high def player.If it plays high def movies it a HD play not matter what system its on, i guess the 360 add-on isn't a HD player also but it only play HD-DVD movies.... go figure.
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Some of us aren't so easily fooled.......and with high def of both flavours still less than 1% of the total movie disc market the idea that everything is being decided right now or that things are set in stone is just absurd
Yes the market would be small right now because this market only a year old compared to the DVD market thats been around for years which is pointless for you to bring up.Because DVD market when first launch didn't do half as good when it first was born it took DVD 3 years before it seen any boost in the market place it hasn't took HD that long.We can only compared number from DVD past not now which would be completely dumb.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 27 July 2007 5:24
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| vurbal (Staff Member) 27 July 2007 5:53 |
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Originally posted by hughjars:
It's just another ridiculous little bit of PR more like.
What kind of ludicrous version of the definition of "exclusive" are we supposed to believe in now, huh?
"Exclusive" as in not at all "exclusive"?!
BlockBuster was supposed to be Blu-ray "exclusive" but carries HD DVD in 250 stores and has a regular unaffected on-line service.
Target have an excusive deal on one blu-ray player (which Sony are paying for)......but still do HD DVD discs on-line and in their stores.
And now East Coast chain BJ’s Wholesale Club are still selling HD-DVD online.
It's just symptomatic of the laughable spin & BS the Blu-ray side have indulged in since this so-called 'war' began.
Some of us aren't so easily fooled.......and with high def of both flavours still less than 1% of the total movie disc market the idea that everything is being decided right now or that things are set in stone is just absurd.
There you go bringing facts and reason into it again. How are we supposed to have a good old fashioned corporate PR Jihad if we let facts get in the way?
In all seriousness, this is the real problem with people saying the format war is over. What neither side wants you to know is that nobody can be sure either one will survive. Neither product is popular enough to sustain the market without raising prices on hardware and discs. If one of them does disappear that doesn't guarantee the other any sales. It's entirely possible the "winner" could be relegated to the status of modern day laser disc, and how many people here bought into that technology? |
| dblbogey7 (Senior Member) 27 July 2007 7:57 |
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The problem for HD DVD is not exclusivity - its visibility.
Even if Blockbuster, Target and BJ's still carry HD DVD harware and software - they're not "visible" to the type of consumers that frequent these retailers. HD DVD has to counter with endcap purchases and other advertising efforts that emphasize its strengths. It's simply losing the visibility battle and the sooner it realizes this the better. |
| hughjars (Inactive) 27 July 2007 8:23 |
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The problem both formats have is that despite what the fanclub thinks both are pretty much invisible to the mainstream mass-market.
High def sales numbers are tiny compared to the mass-market so all talk of anybodies' moves ot this kind of thing being hugely significant is just wishful thinking.
When high def starts taking 20%+ of the total market then it'll worth talking about.....right now they are being out-sold by UMD & are still trailing VHS video.
Leave the PR fantasy behind and look at the reality, high def sales numbers are tiny. |
| Mr-Movies (Member) 27 July 2007 10:03 |
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Actually HiDef TV’s are on the rise as there price has started to drop enough for the average person to get one. When the players come down in price and the format speeds increase you’ll see the players market share increase and this won’t take three years like with DVD’s. Both formats will survive for some time, but in the long run BD will conquer simply because the format allows more capacity.
I wish stores wouldn’t play these marketing games but this is all apart of big business today. Look how MS has bought out most of their competition and if they haven’t bought them out they have stolen from them in order to squash them. Good formats don’t always win like beta/vhs or firewire/usb but I think this time BD’s greater capacity will be the deciding factor. |
| error5 (Senior Member) 27 July 2007 10:05 |
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Originally posted by hughjars:
high def sales numbers are tiny.
True but it looks like only the BluRay side is doing something to increase those numbers. dblbogey7 is right - it's all about visibility if you're trying to break into the mainstream. If the HD DVD Promotions Group doesn't get off its ass and do something to counter the current BluRay PR juggernaut then prospects look bleak for their format. |
| dblbogey7 (Senior Member) 27 July 2007 10:43 |
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Originally posted by hughjars:
Leave the PR fantasy behind and look at the reality, high def sales numbers are tiny.
HDM sales are indeed tiny but that's a poor excuse for sitting idly by and doing nothing while your competitor gets all the publicity. BluRay is indeed in the middle of a PR juggernaut and it's massive. HD DVD supporters are left thinking if their Promotion Group and Ken Graffeo have an answer to this. It seems the format is content to stay as a niche product with no intention of breaking into the mainstream. |
| error5 (Senior Member) 27 July 2007 14:27 |
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Originally posted by dblbogey7:
It seems the format is content to stay as a niche product with no intention of breaking into the mainstream.
At this point coming out with cheaper players is not enough. More content and more public education adding up to more visibility are what's needed. |
| DragonRM (Junior Member) 29 July 2007 12:24 |
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Walmart selling the cheapest hd- dvd players will probably be a bigger deciding factor than Blockbuster... I'm holding off any final judgment until seeing the hardware sales around Christmas :) |
| hughjars (Inactive) 29 July 2007 14:22 |
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Originally posted by dblbogey7:
HDM sales are indeed tiny but that's a poor excuse for sitting idly by and doing nothing while your competitor gets all the publicity.
- .....and what would you have them do when the story turns out to be a lie?
Quote:
False alarm: Target's not giving up on HD DVD
Posted Jul 28th 2007 5:21PM by Paul Miller
Filed under: HDTV
As noted on Engadget HD the other day, and further clarified by Major Nelson this morning, that story about Target going exclusively Blu-ray was false. Turns out they're just installing Blu-ray aisle end caps, thanks to a new promotional deal with Sony, but HD DVD isn't going anywhere. Hopefully you haven't chucked out your HD DVD collection just yet in a concession to defeat at Thursday's "news," but if you have it's always good to know you can score replacements at your local Target, just like always.
http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/28/false...g-up-on-hd-dvd/
Originally posted by dblbogey7:
BluRay is indeed in the middle of a PR juggernaut and it's massive.
- A bunch of lying shills are attempting to talk up a format that is to all intents and purposes invisible to the mass-market.
That is all.
Their sales numbers in no way justify the notion that they have had any big impact, for all the bluster, at all.
Blu-ray = PS3.
It's as simply as that.
.....and whilst that has been their tactical strength it is also their strategic weakness.
A games console is not going to 'win' the high def war in the homes & living rooms of the adult a/v market.
No matter how they try and spin it.
Originally posted by dblbogey7:
HD DVD supporters are left thinking if their Promotion Group and Ken Graffeo have an answer to this. It seems the format is content to stay as a niche product with no intention of breaking into the mainstream.
- .....or alternatively if you want actual & serious 'news' you won't get lying & manipulative BS from the HD DVD side.
You won't get a shower of stories that turn out to be either out and out lies or so heavily biased & selective that the actual truth in the tale compared to how it is presented is laughable.
The facts here are
(1) primarily underwriting all of this is a high def 'market' where retail disc sales are less than 1% of the total retail disc market and
(2) this particular Target story is actually false and so distorted from reality one has to wonder who put out the fake lying BS in the first place. |
| error5 (Senior Member) 29 July 2007 14:49 |
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This article seems to sum up the whole situation very well:
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/21...End_for_HD_DVD_
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The war between Blu-ray and HD-DVD is evolving into a battle that is being fought behind the scenes. The idea that the consumer will be the one to decide the winner of the format war is an illusion. Forget about features, price, technology — none of that matters anymore. It's now about smoke and mirrors.
The format war will be won by partnerships, because an HD-DVD player will not come out on top if nobody can find it. And Microsoft's Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on will not be the saving grace for the format. Consumers, Ma and Pa, will want a stand-alone player, not a gaming console.
The problem with the format war now, is that it is fighting on three fronts; in North America, in Europe and in Japan.
In North America, we hear about Blu-ray sales doing well; Digital Entertainment Group (a group that promotes both formats) says 1.5 million Blu-ray players have been sold in the U.S. (1.4 million of those players were PlayStation 3 consoles). HD-DVD, on the other hand, has only sold 300,000 HD-DVD players according to Digital Entertainment Group (and half of those are the external HD-DVD drive that comes with the Xbox 360). Sony's PS3 has been an enormous success for Blu-ray in North America.
But in Europe, the game is much different, as HD-DVD stand-alone players have outsold Blu-ray three-to-one according to Reuters.
And finally, the mess is made more confusing by executives who spin numbers to make them look like they are out ahead; take a look at how HD-DVD exec Ken Graffeo spins increased sales percentage to sound like Toshiba has sold more units in total than Blu-ray competitors. He notes how HD-DVD sales are up 37 per cent while Blu-ray is down 27 per cent. Of course he's paid to spin the numbers to sound great, but when you aren't working with real numbers of units shipped, a percentage increase or decrease means absolutely nothing. Total unit sales are all that matters.
And so we leave you, Mr. and Mrs. consumer in a tricky spot: The bad news is that it's still not quite over, and both Blu-ray and HD-DVD teams have so much money invested in winning that they will do whatever it takes to win — even if it means deceiving or confusing you to the point where you think you should be locked up in a padded room out of sheer frustration. Numbers are twisted almost everywhere they are reported and the talking heads from both sides spew more emissions than coal-fired plants.
But the good news is, perhaps we are all lucky Blu-ray is strong-arming the industry from behind the scenes. At least it will put an end to this battle and we can all pick up a Blu-ray player knowing it won't be obsolete in six months.
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| dblbogey7 (Senior Member) 29 July 2007 15:24 |
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@hughjars: Your points are well taken and I think it's good that you point out the facts here in these forums as they bring a sense of balance to the issues.
The problem is if you go out into the real world, majority of those who follow this so called war are thinking that BluRay is winning. You and I may not agree with this perception but the fact is we're seeing more and more articles of late that side with the blue rather than the red. This not the fault of the media either. They're not biased at all - they just echo what's being fed to them by those "in the know."
You may not agree with the BDA's tactics but you have to agree that they are effective. Take for example the Target story. The noise from the initial announcement has done the damage that it was meant to. Even if Target releases a statement to clarify the issue do you think people will listen or care? I think the BDA has to be pretty happy with what they are seeing right now.
If the HD DVD Promotion Group and Toshiba are at all serious about staying alive in this war then they need to find a way to level the playing field. I'm not condoning underhanded or unethical tactics but the fact is the BDA has changed the rules and changed the conditions of the battlefield. error5's article hits it right on the head:
Quote:
Forget about features, price, technology — none of that matters anymore. It's now about smoke and mirrors.
You've said that they're saving their resources and biding their time waiting for the holiday season before making their move. I say this is a big mistake. You just don't sit idly by while you're in the middle of a PR battle. There are a lot of people out there who are just starting to learn about the new formats and there are some who are about ready to take the plunge. They're all getting bombarded with nothing but positive spin from the BluRay side. HD DVD doesn't have to prove anything to their supporters but these undecided and presently uninformed consumers are now seeing nothing but blue.
I still think the war has several years yet to go. However, I think the next three to four months are crucial for HD DVD. They have to turn public perception over to their side or else they could be in for a very disappointing holiday season.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 29 July 2007 16:11
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| hughjars (Inactive) 29 July 2007 16:41 |
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Decent article there error5 & I appreciate the comments dblbogey7, this is a decent discussion, thanks.
The point I think one should not lose sight of is Blu-ray = PS3 right now.
That's why the HD DVD group can 'spin' numbers favourable to them when they compare like with like (ie HD DVD stand-alones to Blu-ray stand-alones).
As error5's article says (tho it picks the XBox 360 HD DVD add-on to make the point.....a more relevant point would surely have been about PS3?) a games console is not going to win this 'war'.
.....and without PS3 Blu-ray has nothing and actually 'died' long ago.
I have to say that I do not go along with the idea that the period around X-mas decides anything.
I think 2008 with be the interesting year but even into 2009 things may not be clear.....it could well be that by then we can see both formats dying on their feet and failing to escape the niche with SD DVD remaining 'king' and PVR/DVR satellite/cable boxes and downloads ending up the 'winner' if there is to be a 'winner' at all.
HDD's are an extremely cheap alternative to all of the disc based media (save CDs & SD DVD).
I would not dismiss the impact downloads will have for many (which is something, like it or not, that is going to grow massively in the coming years.)
......and just for zippy it appears that the |
Starting in October, the only standalone hi-def player on Target shelves will be the Sony BDP-S300. They will continue carrying Microsoft's Xbox HD DVD Player which requires either an Xbox 360 or computer.
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