Browse by topic

News

HD DVD standalones hit 750,000 in North America

28 November 2007 18:34 by Andre "DVDBack23" Yoskowitz | 55 comments

The North American HD DVD Promotional Group has made a press release announcing their latest sales milestone, 750,000 standalones sold through last week.

Thanks to incredible November deals on Toshiba HD DVD players, the milestone has been reached with numbers continuing to grow at a steady rate. The numbers also include the Xbox 360 HD DVD add on.

"HD DVD continues to gain momentum and market share with consumers," said Ken Graffeo, executive vice president of HD strategic marketing for Universal Studios Home Entertainment, and co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group. "With more than four weeks left for holiday shopping, HD DVD is turning out to be a perfect consumer electronics gift."

According to the The Digital Entertainment Group, Blu-ray standalone sales have not even reached 200,000 units yet. Those numbers, of course, do not include the Sony PlayStation 3.

Source:
Dailytech

Permalink to this article | Topic: HD DVD

Microsoft to release HD DVD emulator software (13 December 2007)

Studios call web enabled HD DVD features a hit (4 December 2007)

Blu-ray player sales hit 2.7 million on Black Friday (3 December 2007)

Best Buy revamps operations to satisfy holiday shoppers (2 December 2007)

Blu-ray takes early Christmas sales lead (1 December 2007)

WinDVD gets Blu-ray certified (29 November 2007)

New Harry Potter HD DVD will feature inaugural "Community Screening" function (27 November 2007)

Europeans love Blu-ray over HD-DVD (27 November 2007)

Toshiba gives free HD DVDs with laptops in UK (26 November 2007)

Sony CEO Stringer hops back on the Blu-ray bandwagon (24 November 2007)

Triple-layer HD DVD moves forward (22 November 2007)

« Previous news article
U.S. holiday shoppers prefer LCD to Plasma

Next news article »
TiVo to finally make its debut on PCs

Post your comment

Discuss this article!	There are more user comments available, read them here
hade (Senior Member) 29 November 2007 16:33
the term dominate gets thrown around and should not be confusing to most as when any camp says "dominate" they are not referring to total movie sales (ie including sales of standard DVDs). they are actually making reference to their market, the HD market. so yes even though sales may account for say the 4% that gets tossed around, it is fair to use the term dominate when of that 4% one group is clearly responsible for the MAJORITY of that said percentage. so it is my understanding that when the term is used they are not referring to the global market. anyway here is some more info *Quote:* The high-definition format war tilted even more heavily in favor of Blu-ray Disc despite a rash of inexpensive HD DVD players sold through Wal-Mart and other discount retailers in recent weeks. Nielsen VideoScan data for the week shows 72.6% of high-definition discs purchased by consumers were Blu-ray and just 27.4% were HD DVD. HD DVD players have been selling for as little as $98, one-fourth the lowest street price for a Blu-ray player. further findings *Quote:* 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment's "Live Free or Die Hard," released the Tuesday before Thanksgiving, generated first-week sales that were 20% ahead of projections, in addition to nearly 100,000 Blu-ray Disc copies, said Steve Feldstein, the division's senior vp corporate and marketing communications. again all those hd-dvd players being sold really don't mean too much when the movies the general public may want are unavailable. hard for anyone to make an argument that FOX or really anyone else would want to shift to HD-DVD when sales of their own movie (in this example) are doing actually quite well and total movie sales are ahead of the curve. one can also argue well HD-DVD has a large library and yes you would be correct but of said library, just how many of those movies are CURRENT RELEASES or even BLOCKBUSTER HITS? i keep repeating myself but it is fine and dandy that their library is extensive with old releases but only the hardcore fans are going to buy them up. no one is going to pay for a movie on HD-DVD that they only "liked" or even already owned on DVD. they are fighting an uphill battle and so long as the BRgroup maintains their current support it'll be even harder for hd-dvd to prevail, even with the reports of player sales. [ + quote] This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 29 November 2007 16:36
NexGen76 (Member) 29 November 2007 17:35
*Quote:* *Originally posted by sciascia:* That's the best thing I've ever seen you say. Very true. - Well thanks (but I can honestly say that it's nothing I haven't been saying here for ages). Thats the old excuse you use when you always backed into a corner....My lips are sealed let the truth speak for its self. *Originally posted by Hade:* again all those hd-dvd players being sold really don't mean too much when the movies the general public may want are unavailable. hard for anyone to make an argument that FOX or really anyone else would want to shift to HD-DVD when sales of their own movie (in this example) are doing actually quite well and total movie sales are ahead of the curve. one can also argue well HD-DVD has a large library and yes you would be correct but of said library, just how many of those movies are CURRENT RELEASES or even BLOCKBUSTER HITS? i keep repeating myself but it is fine and dandy that their library is extensive with old releases but only the hardcore fans are going to buy them up. no one is going to pay for a movie on HD-DVD that they only "liked" or even already owned on DVD. they are fighting an uphill battle and so long as the BRgroup maintains their current support it'll be even harder for hd-dvd to prevail, even with the reports of player sales. This is the part where he say region coding comes into play which has been shot down because 1.The everyday Blue coller not going to import a movie thats double the cost of a HD-DVD movie...2.Region coding has come back to bite HD-DVD in the ass because this is the reason Newline is pushing all it HD-DVD titles back,Also the reason why HD-DVD hasn't seen a movie from The Weinstein Company group since Last summer because they are having a issue with it also & have said they are going to address there issues during this January CES2008. [ + quote] This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 29 November 2007 17:57
elfman12 (Newbie) 29 November 2007 17:47
*Quote:* well actually i just woke up and read this for the first time. Ok, but these comments might answer what you are asking, so don't make it sound like I was out of line there. Read first, please, or expect to be challenged on it. As for BR sales, if I'm right there about 3m PS3s out there, so to make up the 650,000 units, that would mean that you'd have to be able to claim that around 22% of all PS3's are bought SOLELY to watch BR movies. That's just no credible. At all. As I stated above, there are SOME, but my guess would be more around 0.5%-1% (3000 or so) I have maybe 10 friends that have PS3s, and only 1 of them even owns a BR movie, and that was just to show off his new Plasma. He's admitted that he has only put it in to demo, and hasn't even watched it all the way through. THESE ARE GAMERS first and foremost, and the PS3 is a great gaming machine. It is NOT a media console for the average target user out there, and I don't think it every would be. (Oh, and I'd say the same thing about the Xbox360 if it had a built-in HD-DVD drive.) [ + quote]
NexGen76 (Member) 29 November 2007 18:04
*Quote:* *Quote:* well actually i just woke up and read this for the first time. Ok, but these comments might answer what you are asking, so don't make it sound like I was out of line there. Read first, please, or expect to be challenged on it. As for BR sales, if I'm right there about 3m PS3s out there, so to make up the 650,000 units, that would mean that you'd have to be able to claim that around 22% of all PS3's are bought SOLELY to watch BR movies. That's just no credible. At all. As I stated above, there are SOME, but my guess would be more around 0.5%-1% (3000 or so) I have maybe 10 friends that have PS3s, and only 1 of them even owns a BR movie, and that was just to show off his new Plasma. He's admitted that he has only put it in to demo, and hasn't even watched it all the way through. THESE ARE GAMERS first and foremost, and the PS3 is a great gaming machine. It is NOT a media console for the average target user out there, and I don't think it every would be. (Oh, and I'd say the same thing about the Xbox360 if it had a built-in HD-DVD drive.) Your 10 friends don't makeup the majority of the Blu-Ray supporters & what they think, if these people are gamers first why is it that more Blu-Ray are selling than HD-DVD even with 6 million PS3 & 200,000 standalones on the market if everyone was thinking like that there would be on lead for Blu-Ray at all so your comment is completely of false. [ + quote] This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 29 November 2007 18:07
BoSoxs07 (Newbie) 29 November 2007 18:10
*Quote:* *Quote:* *Quote:* well actually i just woke up and read this for the first time. Ok, but these comments might answer what you are asking, so don't make it sound like I was out of line there. Read first, please, or expect to be challenged on it. As for BR sales, if I'm right there about 3m PS3s out there, so to make up the 650,000 units, that would mean that you'd have to be able to claim that around 22% of all PS3's are bought SOLELY to watch BR movies. That's just no credible. At all. As I stated above, there are SOME, but my guess would be more around 0.5%-1% (3000 or so) I have maybe 10 friends that have PS3s, and only 1 of them even owns a BR movie, and that was just to show off his new Plasma. He's admitted that he has only put it in to demo, and hasn't even watched it all the way through. THESE ARE GAMERS first and foremost, and the PS3 is a great gaming machine. It is NOT a media console for the average target user out there, and I don't think it every would be. (Oh, and I'd say the same thing about the Xbox360 if it had a built-in HD-DVD drive.) Your 10 friends don't makeup the majority of the Blu-Ray supporters & what they think, if these people are gamers first why is it that more Blu-Ray are selling than HD-DVD even with 6 million PS3 & 200,000 standalones on the market if everyone was thinking like that there would be on lead for Blu-Ray at all so your comment is completely of false. Could not agree more! [ + quote]
hade (Senior Member) 29 November 2007 19:37
ummm 22% would not have to have purchased a ps3 "SOLEY" for the reason of playing blu-rays but they would need 22% of all ps3 owners to purchase movies. someone can still purchase a ps3, play games and watch movies and they would still be added into that magic number of 22%. 1% of 3million is not 3000 and even if we use your example of YOUR 10 friends basically every tenth person uses the ps3 for watching movies and gaming or just watching movies, would mean that roughly 300,000 users are watching movies on the ps3. not anywhere near your 3000 estimate. [ + quote]
hughjars (Inactive) 29 November 2007 20:06
*Originally posted by nextgen76:* Thats the old excuse you use when you always backed into a corner. - What "old excuse"? It's a statement of fact you Blu-boys just can't abide to hear. .....not that I have actually (ever) been "backed into a corner" in any way by the likes of you. :P *Originally posted by nextgen76:* ...My lips are sealed let the truth speak for its self. - Jeeez, if only. Hade rambling on to explain how (to him/her) an early, insignificant and immature market that stands at less than 4% of the retail disc market (and is currently divided 60:40) is incredibly significant proves nothing but what Hade's opinion is. That's all it is. It's one he/she is entitled to (of course) but it's hardly even remotely 'fact'. [ + quote]
error5 (Senior Member) 29 November 2007 21:31
@hade: I think you have some valid points there - and I disagree with the "rambling" comment. First of all, the Black Friday Nielsen numbers were very highly anticipated since it is the first big shoppping day of the season here in the US. I myself was aghast at how badly HD DVD was beaten. I was expecting something in the vicinity of 55:45 but 72.6:27.4 was a total surprise. Secondly, your point about content is also valid IMO. I was expecting the Star Trek box to counteract the Die Hard movies but unfortunately this was not to be. I guess there weren't too many Trekkies out there with HD DVD players and $130 for the ST:TOS box. Besides any die-hard Trekkie will already have the entire 4 seasons of ST:TOS on DVD by now. The other factor that could explain the rout is if the majority of HD DVD players bought in the last few weeks are still unopened and are intended as holiday gifts. I myself have 2 HD-A2's bought at $99 still in their original boxes and now nicely gift wrapped for my father and brother-in-law. Anyway, this is indeed a surprising development and I'm sure the studio execs are keeping an eye on these numbers. I'm also interested in seeing how the numbers after cyber-Monday turn out. [ + quote] This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 29 November 2007 21:31
elfman12 (Newbie) 30 November 2007 0:34
*Quote:* *Quote:* *Quote:* Your 10 friends don't makeup the majority of the Blu-Ray supporters & what they think, if these people are gamers first why is it that more Blu-Ray are selling than HD-DVD even with 6 million PS3 & 200,000 standalones on the market if everyone was thinking like that there would be on lead for Blu-Ray at all so your comment is completely of false. I mentioned those guys as anecdotal evidence. You don't seem to be getting the point: STANDALONE PLAYERS was the subject, and someone who buys a movie for their game machine will NOT have the same media purchasing habits as someone who owns a dedicated player. This will become more evident when the HD market gets going more, as opposed to only 4% of the disc market. [ + quote]
elfman12 (Newbie) 30 November 2007 0:40
*Originally posted by error5:* First of all, the Black Friday Nielsen numbers were very highly anticipated since it is the first big shoppping day of the season here in the US. I myself was aghast at how badly HD DVD was beaten. I was expecting something in the vicinity of 55:45 but 72.6:27.4 was a total surprise. Good point about the gifts, I think that's the case as well. Also people, remember that with all of the BOGO BR specials... both discs are counted as purchases, whereas the "5 free" and "8 free" HD-DVDs with player purchases are NOT. So the numbers will be inflated just for that reason if nothing else. As I've said several times before, I believe that both formats will be around for at least another year, and can co-exist that way. But I believe that around early spring next year we'll be sing some separation from one or the other, my judgment tells me it'll be HD-DVD. (unless Warner wants to end it now by choosing a side.) [ + quote]
Matt355 (Newbie) 30 November 2007 1:24
HD DVD standalones hit 750,000 in North America, With a North American Population of 514,600,000 that means that 1 in every 686.133333 people have one, well i guess the format war is finally over, lol [ + quote]
Matt355 (Newbie) 30 November 2007 1:36
Almost Forgot Playstation 3 sales Total for North America 1,058,700 [ + quote]
Scapp70 (Newbie) 30 November 2007 8:11
*Originally posted by Matt355:* Almost Forgot Playstation 3 sales Total for North America 1,058,700 That's good to know, and it makes sense why Blu wins each and EVERY week [ + quote]
eatsushi (Senior Member) 30 November 2007 12:00
*Originally posted by error5:* The other factor that could explain the rout is if the majority of HD DVD players bought in the last few weeks are still unopened and are intended as holiday gifts. ...or maybe those who bought the cheaper players aren't ready to pay early adopter prices for HD media. [ + quote] This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 30 November 2007 12:00
sciascia (Junior Member) 30 November 2007 13:36
Basically everyone here is debating over pure speculations. These numbers are not completely accurate <i>yet</i> for many different reasons. The real numbers to debate will be after Q4 is over and all the dust of Christmas has settled. By then I'm sure all the numbers from all stores, even online, will be added up so we can all get the real picture of where each format stands. [ + quote]
eatsushi (Senior Member) 30 November 2007 14:43
*Originally posted by sciascia:* Basically everyone here is debating over pure speculations. These numbers are not completely accurate <i>yet</i> for many different reasons. Remember that the Nielsen numbers are released weekly. These numbers are accurate as they pertain to sales from November 19 to the 25th in the case above. Although they don't include all retailers (as Walmart as a rule does not release sales figures) thay are a good representation since they reflect >50 percent of all retailers including online (Best Buy, Circuit City, K Mart, amazon.com etc). As a sampling tool the Nielsens are fairly representative of the whole picture. The Nielsen reports also include year-to-date and since-inception numbers. They may not show the whole picture but these numbers are eagerly anticipated by those who follow these formats and are a hot debate topic in some forums. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=943668 [ + quote] This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 30 November 2007 14:53
hughjars (Inactive) 30 November 2007 15:54
The problem for anyone pinning their hopes on Nielson to show them what is going to happen is that it only reflects a snapshot of activity at this point when the market is tiny and deeply immature. It tells us nothing about major future events in the works (like, for instance, film studio plans or the the 3 coming Chinese brands of very inexpensive HD DVD players) or production costs and the resultant profitability companies can look forward to. Unless you know about those kinds of numbers then the rational of the major companies in this will remain matters one can only speculate about on the information we have that has been made public to date. Basically all Nielson shows us is that high def (of either flavour) at this point in time isn't selling very well. We might reasonably consider that freebie movies is putting a damper on disc sales but we won't really know either way on that for a few weeks or maybe a couple of months. All ways around IMO it is sheer folly (and wishful thinking) to imagine that company policies are being decided on this week or months or even this years Nielson numbers. The big players in this will decide on one basis only, and that is profitability. Which is a big pity for Blu-ray. :P [ + quote] This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 30 November 2007 15:57
juankerr (Member) 30 November 2007 16:52
*Originally posted by eatsushi:* ...or maybe those who bought the cheaper players aren't ready to pay early adopter prices for HD media. Interesting observation. So if cheaper players don't necessarily translate to increased HD media sales does this mean that new owners still buying regular DVD's and are using these players only for their upconverting ability? With 750,000 standalones in NA I would also expect the Nielsen numbers to be closer to 55:45. Or are we underestimating the PS3 effect here? [ + quote]
hade (Senior Member) 30 November 2007 17:34
so basically your saying its wrong for anyone on here to "speculate" as you term it, but actually that is ALL YOU DO. you have no hard numbers, insider information, transaction costs, technological costs etc, do you? if so please share. personally i don't see what is wrong with people interpreting numbers from reliable sources and coming up with their own ideas for discussion. the great thing with debating or discussion is the different insight one gets from either side. i might be far left and pro blu-ray but when i hear arguments from someone pro hd-dvd i actually get to see things differently (due to my own ignorance at times) and possibly may learn a thing or two. i might even even change my rational on the subject. you site higher transaction costs associated with blu-ray but what hard evidence do you have to support such claims? i hope its not a statement from an exec at Paramount (or really any other HD-DVD camp member) because that would just be speculating, now wouldn't it. if you don't see it as that then where are your numbers? you keep talking about flooding the market with these cheap players, but as i said before what are you going to watch on them? eatshi and error5 both make good points (which i probably wouldn't have initially thought about) as to why we have yet to see a take off in HD-DVD sales with all the players sold. so again when a person gets an HD-DVD player for xmas and wants to own DIEHARD,simpsons,pirates of caribbean, etc etc., but can't get it on HD-DVD, i guess their only options are: A.) get a blu-ray player or B). buy the movie on DVD. both options don't do ANYTHING for the HD-DVD camp now do they? so really what good does flooding the market do? you'd have a stronger point or argument if you could somehow determine that hd-dvd was getting more exclusive support or that companies where going from blu-ray exclusive to being neutral. of course for you to make such argument all you would have at the moment is pure speculation, so really why bother, right? i personally think the nielson numbers should be looked at and used as reference for coming up with an analysis. if not then what else is there? pure speculation,.....maybe? [ + quote] This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 30 November 2007 17:38
eatsushi (Senior Member) 30 November 2007 17:40
*Originally posted by hughjars:* Basically all Nielson shows us is that high def (of either flavour) at this point in time isn't selling very well. LOL! Nice try hughjars but we both know the real reason why the Neilsen numbers are released every week: It so supporters of both sides have something to argue about. IMO the Neilsen threads on avsforums are some of the best sources of morbid entertainment on the internet. Too bad they took away the best parts. [ + quote]
error5 (Senior Member) 30 November 2007 18:26
*Originally posted by hughjars:* Basically all Nielson shows us is that high def (of either flavour) at this point in time isn't selling very well. That's one way of looking at the numbers. However, I can assure you that to the die-hard HD DVD supporter the 72:28 ratio means a totally different thing. He doesn't care about how his side compares with regular DVD - only how his side compares with the enemy: BluRay. That's how the morbid entertanment starts on avsforums. ;) Think of each week's numbers as a single frame in a motion picture. Each frame gives you a part of the picture but you need to watch the entire film to get the whole story. Hence the YTD and SI numbers. @eatsushi: For another source of morbid entertainment - go to the highdefdigest forums: http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=27817 [ + quote]
hughjars (Inactive) 1 December 2007 9:31
*Originally posted by hade:* so basically your saying its wrong for anyone on here to "speculate" as you term it - Hade, if you're going to debate this then great, feel free. Just don't start trying on that cr@p of telling me what you think I'm saying, stick to what I've actually said, k? We'll all get a long a hell of a lot better. *Originally posted by hade:* but actually that is ALL YOU DO. - You're missing the point. I've nothing against speculation (provided it's backed in some regard at least with some data or background events). It's the 'weight' people give to the data that I find highly questionable at times. *Originally posted by hade:* you have no hard numbers, insider information, transaction costs, technological costs etc, do you? - So what do you call events like the Disney DVD Forum vote, then? Or the fact that China has settled on HD DVD as their format of choice. Or the fact that Chinese HD DVD is identical to 'our' HD DVD excepting a case logo and a firmware? Or the (minimum) 3 other brands of Chinese HD DVD player coming? Or Lionsgate working with Microsoft with the XBox 360 HD downloads? Or the fact that (despite the blu-fans insisting it would never happen this year) HD DVD broke the $200 and then the $100 price barrier? Or the fact that 51gb is now a reality? Or the fact that Paramount said as clear as day that Blu-ray imposes costs that negate much of the short-term sales number lead? Or the fact that Paramount dumped Blu-ray at all? *Originally posted by hade:* personally i don't see what is wrong with people interpreting numbers from reliable sources and coming up with their own ideas for discussion. - ....and I have never said different. I am though entitled to my own take on the matter, am I not? *Originally posted by hade:* you site higher transaction costs associated with blu-ray but what hard evidence do you have to support such claims? - Paramount said it loud and clear and I also happen to know a guy connected to a small independent movie business. Blu-ray imposes a lengthy and demanding contract on independents as well as expensive fees. *Originally posted by hade:* i hope its not a statement from an exec at Paramount (or really any other HD-DVD camp member) because that would just be speculating, now wouldn't it. - Er, no. Not when they come out (having spent a year making Blu-ray movies) and say it repeatedly in public statements. Of all people Paramount are entitled and able to say the facts of the matter. Where the hell are they "speculating" in that? *Originally posted by hade:* you keep talking about flooding the market with these cheap players, but as i said before what are you going to watch on them? - I'd have thought that was pretty obvious. People are most likely watching a lot of SD DVD, up-scaled very nicely on them. Just as we know many PS3 owners are doing likewise (if they are using them a video players at all). HD DVD merely recognises reality and instead of (for now) pushing disc sales are going after the (far larger than a mere game console market)a/v market. *Originally posted by hade:* so again when a person gets an HD-DVD player for xmas and wants to own DIEHARD,simpsons,pirates of caribbean, etc etc., but can't get it on HD-DVD, i guess their only options are: A.) get a blu-ray player or B). buy the movie on DVD. - Look at the DVD sales numbers, what do you really think is going on with people facing that choice? (not that it's the slightest bit different for a Blu-ray owner wanting Shrek3, Transformers or say Star Trek....although they at least face a much kinder price ticket to go dual) *Originally posted by hade:* both options don't do ANYTHING for the HD-DVD camp now do they? so really what good does flooding the market do? - Well if you insist in seeing things in such a short-termist manner then I guess not. My own take on this is that, watching their actions, the HD DVD side are very happy to be entering the mainstream mass-market & expanding their user base for now. If people are going to stick with DVD for some (and lets not kid ourselves, they are) then that is ok, it is HD DVD that can easily 'afford' that. Compared to Blu-ray HD DVD has cost practically nothing in R&D, unlike Blu-ray which requires brand new (and difficult) production methods and lines, existing DVD production lines and methods are very easy to change to HD DVD and again at very little cost. All of which makes HD DVD the cheaper (and therefore more profitable) format. HD DVD does not 'owe' it's investors a small fortune like Blu-ray does. HD DVD can afford the long game far more easily than Blu-ray (which is why we have had the relentless propaganda about a BD win all year, they needed to knock HD DVD out of the game as fast as possible. Sadly for them, they failed.) With the new triple layer Total discs (IMO the over-looked but more important triple layer disc that was approved by the DVD Forum recently) we'll also be seeing the distinction between SD & HD DVD formats blur further. All movies on DVD/HD DVD from the HD DVD side will contain both formats on the one side (ie not a flipper like the old combo discs)soon and at around similar pricing as regular retail DVD is now (ie normal retail DVD prices, but not bargain bucket prices). If you have an HD TV and an HD DVD player you'll get HD if not you'll get SD. It's the simple & elegant solution (and it's inexpensive too). *Originally posted by hade:* you'd have a stronger point or argument if you could somehow determine that hd-dvd was getting more exclusive support or that companies where going from blu-ray exclusive to being neutral. - Well Paramount was not that long ago for a start. ....and I'd wait a couple of months. CES 2008 is going to be very interesting. Just stop expecting very fast moves (one after the other). With the US HD TV market penetration around the 30% level (the UK is just under 20% and continental Europe is just over 10%) there is no great rush. The longer this goes on now the worse it is for Blu-ray, it is Blu-ray that is not getting the return on their huge investments (not to mention CE companies that have spent loads on new products and seen them welded to the store shelves and go obsolete with little or no sales at all). .....and we've yet to witness the 'profile 1.1' and 'profile 2.0' debacle. *Originally posted by hade:* i personally think the nielson numbers should be looked at and used as reference for coming up with an analysis. if not then what else is there? pure speculation,.....maybe? - I have never said the Nielson numbers are without any value whatsoever. I have said that attaching vast weight to them alone and expecting people in the industry to be making long-term strategic decisions on the basis of them is short-sighted and wrong. That's nothing like the same thing as you're trying to tell me I've said. [ + quote]
sciascia (Junior Member) 1 December 2007 13:26
Well obviously the other two formats have a far better jump on the market, but what about that HD VMD? Do you know the tech specs on that media, Hugh? I read somewhere that it is sort of the median between the two better known HD formats but that probably was a bit twisted. Also, since it is a red laser media, wouldn't it be possibly less expensive to manufacture than violet and blue laser medias since it is pretty much an update to an existing technology? I also read that the price for the consumer is around HDDVD's. Can you shed a little more light on that media for me? Or maybe direct me somewhere that can? [ + quote]
hughjars (Inactive) 1 December 2007 18:16
HD VMD has been discussed here a few times, most recently here - http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/12001.cfm The specs are around (easy google), maybe start around here - http://www.nmeinc.com/technology_authoring.aspx http://www.nmeinc.com/technology_hdvmdplayer.aspx Personally I think they have made a couple of mistakes so far. Firstly I would not have gone up against either high def format so much, I think their chances are far greater if they go with making more of being an extension of existing red laser/DVD but with additional capabilities. We'll all have red laser DVD for some time yet so it's not as if all red laser/DVD sellers have had to shut up shop just cos HD DVD or Blu-ray have come along. I think they have also miscalculated prices badly, after the recent HD DVD price cuts HD VMD doesn't look especially inexpensive at all (IIRC they are around the same price). It remains to be seen how much their media and burners will be but there might be some decent interest there if their stand-alone HD VMD are also cheap enough and can handle things like .mkv high def files that are easily available to download nowadays (kind of like Divx/Xvid on SD DVD players is a handy thing when your stand-alone player can handle them). On the otherhand there's a strong possibility that they may not stay around long enough to gain any kind of 'traction'. But right now, who knows? [ + quote] This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 1 December 2007 18:18
hade (Senior Member) 1 December 2007 21:43
*Quote:* So what do you call events like the Disney DVD Forum vote, then? it was something like three years ago that disney joined DVD Forum and disney's junction with the group has had no real positive effect on HD-DVD or negative effect on Blu-ray, i'd say the latest vote (51gig) is mediocre at best. disney still is Blu-ray exclusive, is it not? for some reason i don't see disney ramping up the production lines anytime soon. could it be insurance for the future? sure thats a possibility. here is something from september *Quote:* While Disney has maintained a relatively low profile in the war of words between studios backing one or the other of the high-def disc formats, CEO Robert Iger spoke out in support of Blu-ray this week during the company's quarterly analyst call. As the first studio head to successfully embrace the web (and iTunes in particular) as an alternative distribution vehicle for movie and TV-related content, Iger is credited by many in the industry as being the most aggressive among his peers when it comes to digital initiatives, so his comments (while obviously not unbiased) carry some added weight. Asked whether he would consider releasing his company's product on HD DVD instead of exclusively on Blu-ray, Iger responded this way: "We made our bed with Blu-ray because we believed more in that format for a variety of reasons; some technical in nature, some due to the fact that it simply had broader support from a variety of industries, notably the motion picture studios but also what I�ll call the consumer electronics and the tech industry. What we are seeing lately is that sales of Blu-ray discs are outpacing HD discs by at least two to one. As more quality Blu-ray product comes on the market, which is going to happen, notably with Pirates on May 22, we actually believe that the difference or the advantage of Blu-ray is only going to widen. and here is something a little more recent 11/19/07 *Quote:* Walt Disney Home Entertainment president Bob Chapek told TWICE during a recent Blu-ray Fest promotional event here that the Blu-ray camp's inevitable victory was only delayed slightly. He said the surprise announcements of Paramount and DreamWorks this summer to exclusively back HD DVD temporarily confused the market, but Blu-ray's momentum continues unabated, and it should be revealed as the obvious victor during the coming year. The following is a brief Q&A interview with Chapek during the studio's sendoff for the DVD and Blu-ray Disc releases of "Ratatouille": TWICE: What's your assessment of the progress of the Blu-ray Disc rollout so far? Chapek: I think it's going according to plan. Some people were surprised, and some weren't about the announcements that took place with competitive studios in the HD DVD camp a few months ago. But, to me, that was the last act of a desperate format trying to pull itself out of a nose dive. It was too little, too late. Consumers are voting with their dollars in anywhere from a 2:1 to 3:1 ratios for Blu-ray domestically, and even higher than that internationally. We have 90 percent market shares in Australia and Japan and anywhere from 70 to 80 percent market shares in Europe. In my mind, the artificial extension of the format war, through whatever incentives were given, was counter to the consumer. The consumers made their minds up what format they preferred by some pretty large margins, and [the Paramount and DreamWorks decisions to back HD DVD exclusively] just served to extend what's an unnecessary format war, and confused the consumers and put at risk those who may now buy a format that will become obsolete very shortly. Aside from that little momentary distraction, consumers continue to buy Blu-ray Discs as more players come on the market and discs become more prevalent and start to gain dominance at retail. When Blu-ray first came out it was getting 50/50 shelf space with HD DVD, and now the shelf-space has clearly turned in the favor of Blu-ray, and that means the sales will only continue to slide towards Blu. That will make the already inevitable outcome seem even more inevitable. TWICE: You sound pretty confident. Any guess for when that might be? Chapek: I would have said it would be over by the end of the calendar year, but that was before the surprise announcements [from Paramount and DreamWorks]. My guess is that within the next year it will be clear in everybody's mind that Blu-ray is the ultimate successor to DVD. so why did they vote, only they know the answer as there is little info available that would tell the story. *Quote:* Or the fact that 51gb is now a reality? as i addressed much of that above, isn't there something in the works for 100gig Blu-ray disc anyway? (Hitachi) so hd-dvd gets one gig up on blu-ray and now the possibility of getting 49 more gigs than hd-dvd comes to light. go figure. it actually seems more like the old, my thingy is bigger than your thingy. now it would be sweet if star wars released on a 100gig blu-ray disc. *Quote:* The longer this goes on now the worse it is for Blu-ray, it is Blu-ray that is not getting the return on their huge investments (not to mention CE companies that have spent loads on new products and seen them welded to the store shelves and go obsolete with little or no sales at all). really? thats odd, considering in general terms prices don't get slashed for products with high or marginal demand. one could also argue economies of scale for blu-ray cost reduction but i won't get into that, well for now atleast i wont. it was a marketing gimic to get sales of players boosted which would hopefully inturn increase media sales, which hd-dvd is lacking far behind. unfortunately it hasn't done the later (yet, if ever) or atleast it had little impact on the BIGGEST SHOPPING DAY OF THE YEAR. im not too sure how much lower prices can drop for HD-DVD before that becomes unprofitable. it was a type of last ditch effort (so to speak) with the upcoming holiday to rope everyday consumers in who probably had no intention on owning a player. you introduce them into the market and hopefully you can retain their business. seriously, how would it look to those in the industry who pay attention to numbers (as in the example above apparently Disney does) if Blu-ray yet again dominated the holiday HD movie sales by a greater ratio than that, that we are already seeing? not too good if you ask me and obviously Disney too. so how might one combat this? well drop the price and hope people buy up the content. But as some pointed out various reasons above and as i have repeatedly stated, its hard to buy content when you have no idea your getting a player for xmas,the movies are pricey, or the content you want is unavailable. don't expect any magic numbers in terms of sales any time soon. all of those factors mentioned above don't really do anything positive for HD-DVD, and yes thats with all the players sold or even your redundant notion of cheap chinese players. content sells players, players don't sell content. well they can't sell content that isn't there. good to hear though that cheap players are on the way. wonder how these "cheap" chinese players are going to impact other producers of hd-dvd players? will we begin to see inferior goods, lower production of current firms(drop price means lower production helps minimize costs, or loss), exiting of market all together by current firms? Blu-ray on the other hand with time will become more affordable. it already has the upper hand with media sales, capable players, and studio support. we saw a HUGE drop in Prices of standalone players within a year or so of this format battle by both sides. Why wouldn't you think that if the time ever came that Blu-ray wouldn't do similar marketing and business tactics to stay competitive? HD-DVD and the retailers already played their cards (so to speak, i mean prices really can't drop much lower and stay that way for too long, can they?) while Blu-ray, being overpriced as it might be for both consumers and producers is still enjoying being on top and in my mind still has a lot more leverage. i'd still argue the costs of electronics decreases with time so with the lead blu-ray already has i'd expect that lead to increase as prices in the future become more competitive and thus, more affordable. as stated before. *Quote:* Or the fact that Paramount said as clear as day that Blu-ray imposes costs that negate much of the short-term sales number lead? short-term, but what about long term? here is some more interesting information: *Quote:* The most vocal advocate of Blu-ray was Disney, according to a report from the Associated Press. Iger was quoted as saying the format's success was a "foregone conclusion". Above that, he criticized other studios for not following in its same footsteps. "It's disappointing that the industry hasn't managed to be cohesive," he said. Viacom's CEO Philippe Dauman struck back, saying that HD DVD players are more affordable and thus it is a more appealing format. Viacom owns Paramount, which recently stopped supporting both formats to move exclusively to HD DVD. Dauman also commented on this move, saying it was a more economically viable solution to focus on one format. However, Paramount's former head of high definition home video was a very spirited spokesperson for the advantages of supporting both. interesting tidbit here. i guess there just might have been more to that deal than just internal costs. huh? you believe whomever you like or whatever, but clearly saying that just costs was the basis for making a change is either just naive or pure ignorance. i mean should we only believe what is said by the paramount exec and disregard what the former head of hi-def says? if so then i guess its fair to say we should always believe all things sony, disney, fox, microsoft, paramount etc., right? too each their own i suppose but you definitely pick and choose your truths. i do too so don't feel bad ;) *Quote:* Or the fact that (despite the blu-fans insisting it would never happen this year) HD DVD broke the $200 and then the $100 price barrier? that was actually already predicted to happen back in september of 2007. most probably had no idea. *Quote:* The scale seems to be weighing more favorably for Blu-ray, but HD DVD manufacturers have pledged very low-cost players for the holiday season, with some likely to retail for less than $200. link *Quote:* Or Lionsgate working with Microsoft with the XBox 360 HD downloads? this is something that is really meant to support the xbox 360 ELITE's features (largerHDD, HDMI). this service somewhat eliminates those who bought the core or even those with the premium package as 20gigs is certainly not a lot of space for storing content. i don't see this as having any impact on the format struggle itself nor do i see any bit of supporting evidence or data that would tell me otherwise. i do believe one would still have to pay for this feature (downloads) so knowing how the general populous feels about DRM, downloading HD content and being unable to burn said content probably isn't going to fit into a lot of people's bills. is the HD content for movies going to be "rentals" or will owners be able to "buy" content? *Quote:* I have said that attaching vast weight to them alone and expecting people in the industry to be making long-term strategic decisions on the basis of them is short-sighted and wrong. CEO Robert Iger (Disney) apparently has access and pays attention to the media sales' numbers. from the quote at the beginning of this reply he goes on to say that "sales of Blu-ray discs are outpacing HD discs by at least two to one. As more quality Blu-ray product comes on the market, which is going to happen, notably with Pirates on May 22, we actually believe that the difference or the advantage of Blu-ray is only going to widen" hmmm, guess thats why he's ceo and your where you are ;) although this article and discussion is primarily centered around the US and its HD format battle, lets not forget that Blu-ray does also dominate the other regions as well. especially japan where reports are coming out that blu-ray actually holds some 96% of the HD recorder market P.S. i post on here not to make friends but to share my views, challenge others, and all is done within the rules outlined. so if i step on toes or we don't get along, well its no sweat off my back. i think your quite knowledgeable on the topic but you haven't convinced me one bit. im always up for a challenge or debate :) [ + quote] This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 2 December 2007 2:51
borhan9 (AfterDawn Addict) 21 December 2007 19:01
LOL!!! I just find this funny because one minute they say blu-ray is winning the next its HD DVD. Nothing changes. [ + quote]