Originally posted by Ryu77:

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eatsushi, did you see I posted a reply to your kind advice?
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/636265/3849853

I am eager to hear if you had any further advice... :-D

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Sorry I never got to your reply. The discussion about TP was distracting.

I don't work in the audio/video industry but it's a serious hobby. I do know a few people who do custom installation and professional calibration.

I showed one of them the picture of your setup and he had a few suggestions.

>He believes your components are still getting quite a bit of vibration not just from the center channel speaker but also from the two subwoofers right next to them. He suggests isolators for all of your components. He says the vibrapods are a good choice but there's others out there for all budgets.

>About your subs, as you may know the sound coming from a subwoofer is omnidirectional, meaning it's not clearly localized. The best placement of the subs depends your room acoustics. He suggests experimenting with different placements for your subs. He suspects placing them at the far corners of the room could yield better results.

I don't know who honestly thought that players would go for $200. I bet those $299 ones will be clearence on the out of spec players that can't be upgraded to in-spec. With HD-DVD dead, its either buy us for whatever price we say or continue to watch mediocre quality on your $1000+ tv.

Originally posted by Pop_Smith:

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And so it begins, the evil $ony corp. and its DBA associates are once again (at least for now) confirming they really don't want to take over DVD with their DRM-infection. They just want to make as much dough as possible.

Peace

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It's more than just making as much dough as possible. It cost Sony hundreds of millions in payoffs to movie companies to get them to switch to Blu-ray. They have to make that back before they can ever make a penny in Blu-ray profit. Over time most of their Blu-ray profit will come from royalty fees on Blu-ray disks, but to get that payola money back as soon as possible they have to keep high royalty fees on the players themselves for the next year or two at least. And as others have noted, high player prices also help channel more Blu-ray buyers to the PS3 where Sony hopes to capture more revenue on value-added PS3 services having nothing to do with Blu-ray.

Originally posted by eatsushi:

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Originally posted by Ryu77:

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eatsushi, did you see I posted a reply to your kind advice?
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/636265/3849853

I am eager to hear if you had any further advice... :-D

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Sorry I never got to your reply. The discussion about TP was distracting.

I don't work in the audio/video industry but it's a serious hobby. I do know a few people who do custom installation and professional calibration.

I showed one of them the picture of your setup and he had a few suggestions.

>He believes your components are still getting quite a bit of vibration not just from the center channel speaker but also from the two subwoofers right next to them. He suggests isolators for all of your components. He says the vibrapods are a good choice but there's others out there for all budgets.

>About your subs, as you may know the sound coming from a subwoofer is omnidirectional, meaning it's not clearly localized. The best placement of the subs depends your room acoustics. He suggests experimenting with different placements for your subs. He suspects placing them at the far corners of the room could yield better results.

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Thank you for going out of your way to seek professional advice. Yes, I am aware that subs are omni directional. As I said in my other post... They are omni directional enough to shake my whole house... lol! I will try some different positions but I am limited to what I can do. To the right of that picture I have my PC set-up which also acts as a Home Theater/Media Center PC (DTV recorder, music & video storage etc.).

Once again, thank you for your advice. :-D

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The new Toshiba Super Upconversion DVD players may well kill off Blu-ray as far as the movie market goes.

It's still SD DVD using regular SD DVD movie discs but (like forensic scientists doing image enhancement) uses, in real time, several movie frames to provide much more detail than 1 frame alone.

The obvious linkage to SD DVD could well be the bit that seals the deal for many people.
No new media discs or new labels or big price tickets to scare the wider mass-market people away with.

The Blu-ray side may well come to regret not going for much low prices much sooner.

Originally posted by hughjars:

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The new Toshiba Super Upconversion DVD players may well kill off Blu-ray as far as the movie market goes.

It's still SD DVD using regular SD DVD movie discs but (like forensic scientists doing image enhancement) uses, in real time, several movie frames to provide much more detail than 1 frame alone.

The obvious linkage to SD DVD could well be the bit that seals the deal for many people.
No new media discs or new labels or big price tickets to scare the wider mass-market people away with.

The Blu-ray side may well come to regret not going for much low prices much sooner.

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For the short run I can see this but after a certain price and saturation point (market,amount of BR films,ect,ect) BR will out pace DVD, I say 3-5 years mainly because sony will dig deep to get things released BR only if they do what they did to DVD sony sow up the home market in 3 but more realistically I can see DVD being like what VHS was 10ish years ago.

I think you're kidding yourself if you seriously imagine Blu-ray will be anywhere even close to the market share of DVD within the next 3 - 5 years Zippy.

....and Sony have shelled out a fortune already.

The whole point about Super Upconversion is that it renders Blu-ray etc etc rather pointless - and all with the existing SD DVD movie discs
(and yes that would have applied to HD DVD too).

It also means no-one has to worry about changing production lines and yields etc etc (which is still very much the weak-point in the BD chain).

If the Super Upconversion players are to be priced at the same level as brand name SD DVD players (or even better if they licence to China fast) why would anyone want pay out so much more for the same
(in fact it works out to being less as Blu-ray introduces several inconveniences by being a differnt format)?

7 Things Toshiba Won't Tell You About SUC

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=47406

Quote:

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7. All those Online and Interactive features they've been touting for the past 2 years aren't going to be supported with only SUC. Say bye bye to things like seamless menus, BD-J (or HDi), and in-move experience

6. The Price. It appears Toshiba invested nearly a billion dollars into CELL, not to get a piece of the PS3 pie, but for the raw power of CELL to do SUC for them. Toshiba has spent a Billion dollars on just the processor behind SUC, that doesn't include other components, labor, and shipping costs, so just how "cheap" is a SUC player going to be when they hit the market??? I doubt Toshiba is going to be selling these things at hundreds bellow cost, they gotta get back some of that money they wasted on HD DVD.

5. While you have an HD picture, no way you are going to get an HD sound out of a SUC player. Once again Home Theater Enthusists are going to snub these players, that are geared towards them, because of the lack of HD audio.

4. No Blu-ray or HD DVD support. Like I said, these things are geared towards Home Theater Enthusists, many who have already invested in Blu-ray or HD DVD. So all those Blu-rays and HD DVDs you have, won't work on this player.

3. No hard protective coating. Smudges and scratches are much more likely to ruin your software than with Blu-ray.

2. When is it coming out? This Xmas, next summer, next Xmas???? Either way, thats a long time with just watching standard upconverted DVDs and if you invest in blu-ray for the time being, those discs aren't going to work on your Super-Upconvert player.

1. Its 960p....MAX! Imagine a movie that the camera is very still in. This technology needs movement in order to derive the 960p data. If the camera is still or realitvely still and there isn't much change in the video data, your right back to 480p standard upconversion. Or think of a fast moving scene. Think of the end of 2001: A Space Odyssey, when those brilliant colors are flashing. What happens when the 4 previous scenes had a green hue, the middle scene has a red hue, and the upcoming 5 scenes have a yellow hue. what the hell is this thing going to do? It can either block out the other 8 scenes and give you once again only 480p upscaled or it can give you the wrong image. Only in the perfect settings is this thing 960p, other than that the quality is going to be less than 960p and even at the perfect settings the picture is still over 10% less clear than blu-ray disc.

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Quote:

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The most important thing that Toshiba wont tell you is simply this.
It will NEVER look or sound as good as Blu-ray.

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Originally posted by juankerr:

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7. All those Online and Interactive features they've been touting for the past 2 years aren't going to be supported with only SUC.

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- I thought everyone agreed no-one cares about this stuff?

Originally posted by juankerr:

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6. The Price. It appears Toshiba invested nearly a billion dollars into CELL, not to get a piece of the PS3 pie, but for the raw power of CELL to do SUC for them. Toshiba has spent a Billion dollars on just the processor behind SUC, that doesn't include other components, labor, and shipping costs, so just how "cheap" is a SUC player going to be when they hit the market?

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- That doesn't do anything but pose a question we won't know the answer to for a while yet.

Why should it be hugely expensive as they imply?

Cell was not bought only for this and it's costs will be shared amongst the other products that will use it.

Originally posted by juankerr:

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5. While you have an HD picture, no way you are going to get an HD sound out of a SUC player.

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- The mass-market could care less.

Originally posted by juankerr:

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4. No Blu-ray or HD DVD support.

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- The mass-market could care less.

Originally posted by juankerr:

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3. No hard protective coating. Smudges and scratches are much more likely to ruin your software than with Blu-ray.

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- The mass-market could care less.

DVD is hardly renouned for being scratch prone......and the coating is a matter of manufacturers choice, it is not something that comes as a part of the Blu-ray spec as an extra it is a necessitity.

There is nothing to stop clued-in disc manufacturers using the coating on all their disc based products
(and if they weren't so greedy they would do that already for us all).

Originally posted by juankerr:

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2. When is it coming out? This Xmas, next summer, next Xmas.

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- We'll see soon enough.

Either way it'll be long before there is any sign of a genuine mass-market move towards Blu-ray.

Originally posted by juankerr:

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1. Its 960p....MAX!

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- The mass-market could care less.

Quote:

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The most important thing that Toshiba wont tell you is simply this.
It will NEVER look or sound as good as Blu-ray.

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- Yeah right.

First of all - according to whom?
The blu-ray.com fanclub?

Secondly if it is a matter of only being slightly down on image quality (and an irrelevant audio quality as far as the mass-market is concerned) but is significantly much cheaper than Blu-ray and all using regular SD DVD discs and without all the DRM sh*te Blu-ray forces on us?
Who cares?

Originally posted by hughjars:

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- The mass-market could care less.
- The mass-market could care less.
- The mass-market could care less.
Who cares?

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The same thing could be said about SUC.

As long as there's upconverters for $50 or less at WalMart then:

...the mass market could care less about SUC.

How can it be the same? No matter what sort of forensic scientist you claim will live in these Super Dooper up-conversion DVD players...

It's like comparing a 5 megapixel still image with a 2 megapixel image. No matter how good your forensic software is, you could never re-create a 5 megapixel image pixel for pixel from a 2 megapixel image. They will get close, but close doesn't cut it in the High-Def game.

The detail can't be re-created in it's 100% true form from a lower resolution source. It's common sense.

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Originally posted by Ryu77:

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How can it be the same? No matter what sort of forensic scientist you claim will live in these Super Dooper up-conversion DVD players...

It's like comparing a 5 megapixel still image with a 2 megapixel image. No matter how good your forensic software is, you could never re-create a 5 megapixel image pixel for pixel from a 2 megapixel image. They will get close, but close doesn't cut it in the High-Def game.

The detail can't be re-created in it's 100% true form from a lower resolution source. It's common sense.

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- Well, following your analogy.....

.....it gets very close to being the same (if not quite actually being exactly the same) because the several preceeding and following 2 megapixel frames it selects and uses to scan do not contain the exact same 2 megapixels of information and by extracting and combining those differences a far higher level of genuine detail can be obtained.

That's how a large part of forensic movie image enhancement works and has worked for decades, there's no new magic to it, the new bit is a cheap processor able to do this in real-time in your DVD player.

Ultimately this will all revolve around costs.

We will see soon enough about what those are likely to be.

If this is priced well it could well see Blu-ray confined to being a short-lived & mostly PS3 game console based niche product as the mass-market continues to stick with SD DVD movie discs and enjoys a new level of detail over and above what upscaling gives them now on their HD TVs.

The fact that it uses existing SD DVD movie discs and the fact that no means high def (with perhaps the exception of growing HD TV services) has broken into the real mass-market yet is the clincher IMO.

......but, interestingly, if anything the quote Juankerr provided illustrates just how worried some people are about this new approach to DVD.

Interesting times ahead.

Originally posted by hughjars:

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......but, interestingly, if anything the quote Juankerr provided illustrates just how worried some people are about this new approach to DVD.

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Why would we be worried?

I am all for advances in technology. I am not so close minded to shut out technology just because I have decided to be be loyal to another brand. Put it this way, if it was the other way around in this recent format war between Blu-ray and HD-DVD, and HD-DVD ended up being the format of choice. I would be looking at purchasing a HD-DVD player. I always look for the positive in any given situation. If this SUP device could truly give a picture as good as Blu-ray or HD-DVD... Of course I would want one. I have about 500 regular DVD's too.

It's just common sense that tells me that higher resolution video, higher bitrates, more efficient codecs and uncompressed/lossless sound equals a far better home theater experience.

I don't mean to sound rude hughjars but sometimes I just don't get you. You seem to be an AV enthusiast but yet you are promoting a device with technology that is sub standard to Blu-ray or HD-DVD. What's this all about? Don't you want the absolute best?... I know I do.

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Originally posted by Ryu77:

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Why would we be worried?

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- I didn't mean you (or anyone else here) personally.

I didn't look but I do expect that little list Juankerr gave came from a Blu-ray fan or fanclub site.

Originally posted by Ryu77:

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It's just common sense that tells me that higher resolution video, higher bitrates, more efficient codecs and uncompressed/lossless sound equals a far better home theater experience.

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- Well in simplistic terms I'd agree.

But it's not just about absolute judgements and there are wider concerns.

Blu-ray's DRM issues leave me utterly cold and I just won't accept it at any price.

I'm also highly sceptical about Blu-ray production limitations and costs equating to 'the best' in the longer term either.
I expect to see a lot of cheaper 25gb issues as people now forget about having to compete with HD DVD.

Originally posted by Ryu77:

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I don't mean to sound rude hughjars but sometimes I just don't get you. You seem to be an AV enthusiast but yet you are promoting a device with technology that is sub standard to Blu-ray or HD-DVD.

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- No.

I'm not "promoting" anything.

I do think that Super Upconversion could be the obvious & practical means of taking high def to the masses at a genuinely cost-effective level that sees some form of high def finally take off.

Because of the issues with Blu-ray I'd really rather that Blu-ray was not the format to do that and I'm more than happy to look for that anywhere other than Blu-ray.

But I really don't see this method as being a weird or hopeless contender, the hook-up with everyone's SD DVD collection is very very interesting & a very obvious lure to every SD DVD owner out there.

Originally posted by Ryu77:

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What's this all about? Don't you want the absolute best?... I know I do.

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- I don't, not at any price & if it comes with all the potential horrors Blu-ray incorporates.

For the true AV enthusiast, upconversion - super or otherwise - is nothing but a stopgap measure and a temporary solution until they release your favorite catalog title in full 1080p. For major new releases there is just no acceptable solution but to get the high def version.

Quote:

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I didn't look but I do expect that little list Juankerr gave came from a Blu-ray fan or fanclub site.

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Try highdef digest.

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=47406

BTW, Ryu77 - that's a nice home theater setup you have there.
http://i.my.afterdawn.com/original/16117.JPG
You must have spent a small fortune on it. I don't blame you for wanting only the best media to play on it. You simply don't put regular unleaded in your Lexus.

stockstar1138

60GB PS3
Blu-ray games - 8
Blu-ray movies - 56


Like I said, a bit of a Blu-ray fan (and I wonder where he pinched it from, Blu-ray.com?)

Like it or not Super Upconversion is a means of extracting genuine additional detail from the SD DVD source.

It might well be the real 'winner' in all of this.

Originally posted by hughjars:

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genuine additional detail from the SD DVD source.

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"genuine additional detail"

Now there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one.

Detail that was never there in the first place can never be genuine.

Originally posted by juankerr:

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"genuine additional detail"

Now there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one.

Detail that was never there in the first place can never be genuine.

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- Well this is where this 'debate' just gets ridiculous.

It seems that the Blu-ray fanclub have decided to slam this tech as mere upscaling with a couple of bells and whistles tacked on.

It isn't.

Anyone who doesn't get the point about each frame of video having different detail compared to that which the next may have is never going to get this.

I suggest looking up what the forensic cops do to enhance video and pull in genuine new and additional detail from film.
This is the same thing, it's just that now there is a chipset that will do it in real-time on your DVD player.

I am also intrigued about the 960p reference, obviously thats 2 x the USA's much lower 480 line res TV.

In Europe we have PAL 625 lines (which might help explain why upscaling and high def is not the huge leap here as it might be in the USA).

Maybe we'll get the 1080p stuff?

Originally posted by juankerr:

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"genuine additional detail"

Now there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one.

Detail that was never there in the first place can never be genuine.

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Toshiba demonstrated their spursengine or "super resolution" engine at the recent CES. It consisted of using 9 video frames to create one single STILL frame at about double the resolution (960p). This technique is similar to what astrophotographers use to increase the power of their sensors.

However, doing this to produce higher resolution video is another thing. Like one of the mods at avsforums said:

Quote:

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I can see taking multiple video frames and coming up with a higher resolution still frame. But I'm really skeptical about taking x number of video frames "look ahead" and constructing a single video frame and keep doing this constantly to produce "upconverted" video. At the very least it would take a lot of processing power,

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If Toshiba is able to do this with a Cell processor-based engine in the next few years I will be surprised if this player will come in at a "mass market" price. The process could entail years of expensive R&D with players requiring enormous CPU/GPU power and launch prices beyond the reach of j6p. By the time this gets off the ground we could be seeing sub-$200 BluRay players.

What I see happening is Toshiba developing a high-end Cell-based BluRay player with SUC built-in.

Originally posted by error5:

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It consisted of using 9 video frames to create one single STILL frame at about double the resolution (960p). This technique is similar to what astrophotographers use to increase the power of their sensors...

If Toshiba is able to do this with a Cell processor-based engine in the next few years I will be surprised if this player will come in at a "mass market" price.

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So you use 9 video frames to produce one single STILL frame.

I can see how this can work with astrophotography where you have minimal or no motion and you have a single reference point.

Try doing this though with high-motion action sequences with multiple camera angle changes and you'll see the problem. You have to have

Quote:

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2D images converted into exact 3D models with all 8 frames scaled/modified/rotated to match perfectly overlayed in 4D time and interpolated in 3D and broadcast a 2D frame with slightly more detail in less than a half a second without pointers or meshes not encoded into the film.

Right.

That is exactly what you would need to do to interpolate ANY video that moves, zooms out/in, changes camera angle, etc.

Try overlaying 4 frames zooming out or in, and you'll get a blurry mess unless it's scaled correctly.

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The Cell broadband engine could be up to the task but I don't see how they could make this work without millions in R&D and an expensive high-end launch player. It won't be cheap and it still won't be HD.

Originally posted by juankerr:

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It won't be cheap and it still won't be HD.

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- That's just you guessing about this as far as the costs go and I simply think you are wrong to claim it won't be 'true' HD.

Everything I've read about the demo states it is genuine 960p native res HD.

There's a Youtube about it here -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1qxa1zv5uI
and it does show moving images, not just static images.

....and if people generally don't see high def as worth the premium over upscaled SD DVD and the claims about this being low cost are true then what hope has Blu-ray got against this (better) upconversion tech?

Like I said, there is every chance that Blu-ray not only fails to defeat SD DVD anyways but that tech of this kind renders it utterly pointless (outside of being a medium for PS3 games).

Given that Sony & the BDA have spent up on Blu-ray I'd say this is their nightmare scenario, almost everyone except the devout PS3 crew sticks with SD DVD and, as they replace their regular DVD players with these Super Upconversion players over time, see significant improvements in playing back their regular DVD collections.

Now that would be an irony to make me laugh out loud.

Anyhoo, I prefer to await the reality of this tech before I jump to the self-serving conclusions the Blu-ray fanclub obviously would prefer us all to jump to, thanks.

Like many others I am in no hurry to see how this all works out.

There are plenty of other routes to high def without Blu-ray and all the greedy corporate garbage it brings with it.

They tried to use their Blu-ray tech to f*ck the sharers, so of course I'm happy to look to developments which may well end up f*cking them mightily & royally.

Up the sharers!

Originally posted by juankerr:

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"genuine additional detail"

Now there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one.

Detail that was never there in the first place can never be genuine.

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Who's a Moron?? Ohh... Your post was directed to hughjars. That's ok then. :-P

BTW... This is only meant to be funny. Sometimes these threads could use a little more humour. :-D

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There are too many detracting posts on this topic which is classic PR blogger spin. F,Off corporate shills, go back to AVForums and Highdefdigest forums and spew you rubbish there to make ppl believe you are an enthusiast to sell you DRM hobbled warez.

topic = "Sony not expecting $200 Blu-ray players before next year"

there is now no need as the competition to secure the format has been decided and what was decided was Blu-Ray and the extra level of DRM over HD-DvD.

The problem is the mass public do not care about DRM-Ray, as up-converting DVD players on a 40" screen or less, at ten feet looks almost exactly the same as the Blu-Ray HD flick.

blu-ray is a pointless format that is here purely to lock content down with the introduction of, HDCP HDMI, AACS (broken), BD+ (anti consumer blu-ray only), ICT (yet to be turned on 2010 and is only being delayed to sell off all none compliant screens and help the up-take of HD equipment), Rom Mark(blu-ray only DRM also) Global price fixing DRM tool, regional coding that was only on Blu-Ray not HD-DvD.

ICT : http://www.boingboing.net/2006/05/23/hdmi-the-manchurian-.html
ICT : http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060521-6880.html
EFF: http://www.eff.org/work

Originally posted by Cory Doctorow:

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Hollywood studios and some CE manufacturers have reportedly entered into an informal agreement to hold off on using the "image constraint token" in HDMI DRM until 2010 or 2012. The image constraint token is a flag in a video signal that instructs receivers, DVD players and other high-definition sources to "down-rez" their output to a low-definition signal when connecting to an "untrusted" screen or other sink.

This is a classic Manchurian Candidate strategy. These devices behave like normal gear until the studios pull the trigger, then they turn on you. The studios talk a big game about wanting to operate in a free market, but then you get stuff like this: back-room deals, restraint of trade, and attempts to subvert the market by fooling customers into buying crippled kit.

The conundrum isn't apparently lost on the consumer electronics industry or Hollywood. According to German-language Spiegel Online, there is reportedly a behind-the-scenes, unofficial agreement between Hollywood and some consumer electronics manufacturers, including Microsoft and Sony, not to use ICT until 2010, or possibly even 2012. Without providing more details, the report suggests that Hollywood isn't exactly happy with the situation, and could very well renege on the agreement, such that it is. But the agreement is there nonetheless, presumably to help the industry transition to HDMI. This could explain why the very same studios that pushed for HDMI and ICT have recently announced that they would not use it for the time being.

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Originally posted by nobrainer:

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There are too many detracting posts on this topic which is classic PR blogger spin. F,Off corporate shills, go back to AVForums and Highdefdigest forums and spew you rubbish there to make ppl believe you are an enthusiast to sell you DRM hobbled warez.

topic = "Sony not expecting $200 Blu-ray players before next year"

there is now no need as the competition to secure the format has been decided and what was decided was Blu-Ray and the extra level of DRM over HD-DvD.

The problem is the mass public do not care about DRM-Ray, as up-converting DVD players on a 40" screen or less, at ten feet looks almost exactly the same as the Blu-Ray HD flick.

blu-ray is a pointless format that is here purely to lock content down with the introduction of, HDCP HDMI, AACS (broken), BD+ (anti consumer blu-ray only), ICT (yet to be turned on 2010 and is only being delayed to sell off all none compliant screens and help the up-take of HD equipment), Rom Mark(blu-ray only DRM also) Global price fixing DRM tool, regional coding that was only on Blu-Ray not HD-DvD.

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Ok since you think it is ok to say F Off to whoever it is here you are referring to, I will take the liberty and suggest you do that.

I for one do not want to see your negative BS anymore. Isn't your style of posting against forum rules? I thought format bashing wasn't allowed. I'm not sure if this rule still applies to news threads or not.

Mods, can we please get this rule clarified?

This is a Blu-ray thread and instead of Blu-ray enthusiasts discussing positive things that the future will bring we have to deal with people like you. Go away! Nobody likes you here (except hughjars). I believe that if you haven't got something good or helpful to say about the topic at hand then don't bother posting!

Just to finish off, you said in the aforementioned quote... "F,Off corporate shills, go back to AVForums and Highdefdigest forums and spew you rubbish there to make ppl believe you are an enthusiast to sell you DRM hobbled warez"

Can I ask, what sort of set-up do you have? I am not trying to have a superiority contest, I am simply attempting to discover if you are an AV enthusiast. I know that you don't own a HD player of any kind, not even HD-DVD so I was just curious about the rest.

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Quote:

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F,Off corporate shills, go back to AVForums and Highdefdigest forums and spew you rubbish there to make ppl believe you are an enthusiast to sell you DRM hobbled warez.

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It's not your place to make these requests...

Just remember people, even though the war is over the personal attacks still will not be tolerated.

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It just never ceases to amaze me, now that toshiba hd is out, now you can buy one of thier players for $79, you know they are not giving it away, they want to get back at least what it cost them, meaning thats what those damn things really cost to begin with, and yet sony will continue getting thier ridiculious price for thier blue ray, and we the stupid consumer will pay it.

And yet I have seen these blurays and hd's, have seen them on my friends 32" lcd screen, not much of a difference at all, even at a 40", I did see a difference when you get bigger than than, other wise a waste of money.

And last, $ony along with thier drm and rootkits can kiss my American ass.