aicra, your assertaion ("However, I believe the assertation that it is "illegal" to share music
files or store and record music files as false and challenge any legal
department to find otherwise") that it is not illegal to share copyrighted music is incorrect. The only reason music can be broadcast by companies such as MTV is because they pay licensing rights to the authors to do that. You pay MTV for the song by watching their network which generates ad revenues. A copyright exists to protect the intellectual property of someone. If music could only be passed around as embedded IC's or something there wouldn't be a need to copyright it; a patent would do. Copyrights exist to keep people from generating your product without your permission, thus robbing them of money they EARNED. You cant share music with people because you havent paid a licensing fee. If it wasnt 3 am right now this would be more coherent.

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You pay MTV for the song by watching their network which generates ad revenues

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We don't pay any bill to hear music over the airwaves (radio) and people all accross the USA RECORD music all the time. Tell the RIAA to go knocking door to door with their messages as well m8.

Shoey :)

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Grizzant, I am guessing then that you are from Adelaide, or possibly Darwin, Australia?

Paul.

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While visiting Chicago, I see that they have at least decent radio stations. I.e. you could probably get away with listening to the radio all day, finding the type of music you like without doing anything illegal or purchasing a single CD.

Here in Ireland in the Nort West, there are only 6 stations. Radio One: discuss & chat programs, 2FM: charts, disco, techno, etc. (not my type) RnaG: Irish Irish language with only Irish music. Today FM: plays some interesting music now and again, but has lots of chat programs. Nort West: a week station is about the same also. I.e. you really need to have a good msuic collection to listen to decent music. Digital satellite helps too (tuned in about 400 radio stations) ;-)

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While visiting Chicago, I see that they have at least decent radio stations. I.e. you could probably get away with listening to the radio all day, finding the type of music you like without doing anything illegal or purchasing a single CD.

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Since you don't live in the greatest land in the world (USA), you have no clue how many millions of people listen to radio broadcast and record songs. I have an 75 feet tower and an fm antena to bring in more reception to get the type of music I listen to. This is nothing uncommon for residents living in the USA to record songs of the airwaves.

Shoey :)

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Greatest land in the world ?

OK, it would be inappropriate for the two of us (moderators!) to get into a fight about this and I wouldn't pretend that my country is the greatest either, but I would simply submit the following points:

1 : If you have to point out that it is USA, then perhaps the assertion is a trifle hollow.

2 : USA is home to RIAA

3 : USA is home to and presided over by a man whose name means cunt in many countries (including your own!)

4 : USA has a pretty poor rate of literacy

5 : USA is not actually the richest country in the world by any indicator, except cumulative wealth (not surprising with 350 million people) and it is spread thinly amongst the very elite.

6 : USA has dropped the only atomic bomb in war

The list could go on, but I am tired and have too many American friends to go further ;-)

Whilst I do actually love your country and many of the people in it, I find the assertion that it is the greatest, somewhat inaccurate.

Paul.

PS : I have drunk 6 beers this evening, which might have contributed to the post, I therefore take the 5th Amemdment (another American invention) on any further questioning ;-)

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If the USA hadn't droped the atomic bomb, there probably wouldn't be any SEGA, Sony, or any other popular stuff that we all have bought!! Don't drink too much!!!

Sorry Paul - even with all of the misguided reasons you've provided, the USA is still the greatest land in the world.

It has the OLDEST and most stable government of any country on earth. Period. It has bailed the rest of the world out too many times to mention and if that requires an atomic bomb or two, so be it. Like Gene Hackman's character said in Crimson Tide, "By all means sir, drop that f**ker. Twice."

By the way, name me any country in the world where most of the wealth IS NOT distributed among a few elites - even in the case of Communist China who believes that the wealth should be spread amongst all people is this true.

But let's not forget what we're talking about here - screw the RIAA.

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phuocle,

Your assumption that the USA has "the OLDEST and most stable government of any country on earth" is entirly, 100%, completley incorrect!!

Your Goverment has only been around for approx. 200 years. The UK, which is the mother of all democrocies, ( not to be associated with Saddam's ranting's of 'The Mother of all......" ) has been around for several hundred more. We do not assassinate our leaders when we disagree with them! We just vote them out!

It has "bailed the rest of the world", once, only when it has got it's ass kicked, and only then to preserve American interests.

Please do not get me wrong. I am not 'Anti-American'. I am American! I just think I am more educated than most American's with respect to the world outside America. After all, the majority of Americans do not even hold a passport and have very little interest in the affairs of the world outside America. Untill 9/11, (which I abhor), the American public was almost isolationist in it's attitude towards the outside word, reflecting somewhat, China, 100 years ago, but not that extreme.

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Eejit,

Sorry to burst your bubble, but first off, the UK IS NOT the mother of all democracies; that would be Greece.

The UK MAY (and I stress MAY) have some form of democracy for hundreds of years, but the current form of UK's government is younger than that of America's. In fact, the UK as we know it (England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales) was not even created until 1801 when America was already on her THIRD president. Only after the creation of the UK were these cultural regions brought under the rule of a central government and administered by one parliament.

America has the world's oldest surviving democracy (even a British newspaper, The Economist, agrees with this: http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1592571), the world's oldest written constitution, and two of the world's oldest political parties.

I, too think that I'm more educated than most Americans and in this case, I have facts behind me. As the matter of fact, I've flown 48,000 miles in the first 2 months of this year alone and have visited 4 European countries, Japan, Hong Kong, and Singapore (No SARS thank God)... so I do get around on my American passport.

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Obviously none of you on here that support P2P are musicians. Why is it ok for the industries to protect movies rights but not musicians rights? If I write a song and I pour my heart and soul into it what gives you the God Damn right to rip it off for free? Did you stay up until 3 in the morning trying to come up with the melody or the perfect backbeat? Hell no you didn't? Why do you think you should be able to download music for free? Becuause you have a F***ing internet connection? So now this gives you a license to rip off all the musicians that make their living by writing music so you can enjoy it?!
No one appreciates hard work anymore and everyone wants shit now and free. Wake up people anything worth having is worth working for and paying for. If the artists wants you to have his/her music then he/she will provide it on their website for you to download. Until then STOP STEALING!!!!! Everyone one of you is no different then the common criminal that steals from the local liqour store. You guys are just to chicken shit to do it in person so you hide behind your computers.
You are pathetic and make me sick!!!!!!

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Thank you Piledrive for bringing the discussion back on topic. Although I am a moderator, I won't hide behind that status, as I too agree with the sentiment of yours, although I would expand it to show that both musicians and the general public are taken advantage of by big recording business. It is unfortunate that without big business (that is until recently) it has been very difficult for new musicians to get themselves distributed. In this respect the Internet could actually be the one thing that could save you from signing your life away to someone with big shareholders, who may or may not make you a star. That does not mean, however, that the record labels are entitled to package up and distribute any old crap and market it heavily and expect us to buy it, nor does it mean that good music should not be paid for.

The 'utopia' I envisage is one where musicians (through the internet mainly) get to have their music distributed the world over, for reasonable fees direct to the public and the public does not pay through the nose for lots of suits who actually have nothing to do with music, but a lot to do with its' astronomical cost.

It would be harder for this system to be applied to the film industry, but people are trying with new independent film companies popping up. A friend of mine works for the French company Wild Bunch (amongst their hits include City of God) who are considering selling movies through the net at reasonable prices.

Anyway, just don't bite the hand that feeds you too much, as those you are referring to in your recent post are your future customers (mine too!) and you need them on your side :-)

Paul.

PS : With reference to any justification of nuclear attack, no one (I mean not one single person on this planet) will ever be able to justify that act to me either in the past or in the present. In my opinion it is one of the most abhorrent things imaginable. No excuses. Period.

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Perhaps it is time for all of us to shake loose from the RIAA, by not downloading or buying their stuff. There are numerous downloads made available by original Artists that are every bit as good as the mainstream Artist are but made unknown because they're not given a chance to compete. There are also some mainstream Artist that realize that they either sail with the winds of change or face the possibility of becoming obsolete. Secretly many are hoping that it is their stuff that's being downloaded.

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Thank you Loaded for your reply. Apple Computers have just launched the iTunes store. 99 cents will get you a download of any song from their catalog of over 200,000. They are working with 5 of the major labels to make it legitimate to download.
This is what we need on the internet. Not p2p.

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Piledrive - i agree with you but i dont think I've ever met a music lover that wouldn't want the atrist to get their money. but the fact is, out of a $15 cd, the artist sees about 28 cents of that. the rest goes into the pockets of the record companies (minus wholesale and packaging and all that crap of course) The record companies make about 20 times what the artists do on each cd. So in all reality, we are stealing from them, not the artist. I remember a day when metallica put out an album clearly stating on the cover "do not pay more than $5.98 for this cd", yet 10 years later they get "sue happy". i'll gladly steal from them and their label. If an artist would come out and say "here's my new cd, and all of it is availble on my website" i bet a flock of people would run out and buy it after they downloaded it even. Nothing sucks worse than spending $15 on a cd and 1 or 2 songs are good and the rest is just filler. and yet nothing compares to owning an original disc with good quality covers. yeah you can get and print any cover you want, but it's not the same. If you are so set against p2p, then you should never put out any music for radio play either, i used to tape that all the time. but if i can here it for free on the radio, is that ok? either way if i like the band, i'm going to buy the cd, or at least go see them live. if i knew for a fact that the artist gets the majority of the money from cd sales, i'd crusade right along with you against people downloading songs for free, but that fact is, the artist gets very little, and i'll be damned if i'm going to pay for some bigwig's vacation to bermuda, or his porsche.

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Dartnip, perhaps you should consider rephrasing, in view of our not condoning piracy policy ;-)

Also, Porsches are over rated. I got rid of mine in favour of a Mercedes. Much more reliable.

Paul.

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Dartnip if my songs get played on the radio at least I will get somemoney for it. And that is a hell of a lot more then waht I would get from Kazaa, Napster I mesh or any of these other common thieves.
I agree with Loaded....Porsches are way overated.

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I'm not condoning any form of piracy at all paul. if i download a song, i usually have heard a clip and want to here the rest then i go out and buy the cd. i really have no use for mp3's unless it's to see if i want to on the whole cd. all my mp3's are deleted within 24hrs. Believe me, my wife wishes i just downloaded everything, then i wouldn't have 2000 retail cd's sitting around here for her to dust! It disgusts me to buy retail cd's and line the pockets of the record labels while the artists struggle, but i do it for more than that, i also consider the retailers that have to feed their kids, the sound guys that had to produce it, even the truck drivers that had to bring it to the store. people dont even realize when they download music instead of buying it, they are effecting a whole chain of people involved in getting the cd's to the store. and since i cant seem to edit my post, i'll make this amendment,

--- I DarthNip in no way, shape, or form condone, support, or endorse piracy of any kind, on any level. and if you do, may the fleas of 1000 camels infest your pubic hair!

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I love the response :-D

rotflol !!

I must agree with you with one exception : Sod the truck drivers, they clog up our roads and are discourteous. In London anyway :-)

Paul.

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yeah but admit it, if you were behind the wheel of a machine 65 feet long and weighing sometime 30-40 tons, wouldn't you be a bit "bigheaded, like you DO own the whole damn road" about it? man i would!! i could see me lmao when some civic tries to cut me off or something hehe "waaahooo, bye bye tiny". i think they need to make roads just for semi's, like super expressways just for trucks. then they wouldn't mess with us, and I'm sure we'd all get stuff faster. woah, way off topic.

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Look the bottom line is this: If I write the song I am the only one that has the right to give it away or sell it. How would you like it if I came over to your house and jumped in your car and took it for a ride then when I was done I gave it to a friend? Or how I about I go through your clothes and take what I like? That would be stealing right? No difference from what P2P is. Except the outcome here is much much worse....a loss of someones livelihood .

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yes i fully understand what you are saying, but the chances of your music being heard by more people greatly increases with people being able to get it for free. i'm not going to drop 15 bucks on a band i've never heard before. would you buy a car before test driving it? alot of great bands never get radio play at all and the only way their music gets spread and a demand for that music is thru things such as p2p's. any true artist would want their creations heard more than the money it would bring them. the money will come, but not if no one gets to hear the product.

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the artists make their 'real' money by advertising, souveniers/posters/clothes, and most of all.. CONCERTS..

they do make only a small sample from a cd, thats why they should go digital and spread copies of their songs encoded in a lower bitrate (like 96khz) and then setup a website to sell a very high quality mp3 or wma for $1 or $2 each.. i would buy!! plus you cut out that damn middle man, aka music industry...

just my .02

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One thing about P2P that I have not heard mentioned is the fact that you CANNOT buy much of what is available for download.

Want a copy of the new Jewel video ? Can't buy it for a million dollars.

Want a track from an out of print obscure artist? Can't buy it for a million dollars.

The P2P world is full of all types of media that cannot be purchased.

I suppose if is still 'stealing' even if the media is not for sale.

Much of the media files were put there by THE OWNER...for your free download, so there is no copyright violation.

I understand that artists feel they 'own' the music, but in some ways once you put it out there it becomes free. The artist owns the right to perform the song exclusively, but not the song itself or their performance of it. If I want to record the people talking next to me in a restaurant do they 'own' their conversation ? If someone wants to record the sound of my car as it drives past them can I sue them for illegally making a copy of "my" unique and personal sound of my car ?

The whole topic is moot anyway. The cat is out of the bag. There is NO WAY you can stop people from sharing the hundreds of thousands of songs that are sitting on hard drives all over the world.

I just hope all those sitting in judgement of the file sharers have never recorded a tv show and then shared the tape with someone else...or a sports event, etc. I hope they ahve never purchased an article of clothing and then given it away. ( maybe we should shut down all the Good Will stores ? )

Strange, it is perfectly legal for me to buy a cd and then give it to someone in exchange for money ( as do all used cd stores ), but it is ILLEGAL for me to buy a cd and then give it away.

Looks like every artist who ever gave one of their own cd's away was just as guilty of breaking the law.

The big bucks in music are still in recording sales IE, CDs. Many concerts cost so much to produce that they barely break even and wouldn't even happen except for the successful mass sales of CDs. Where it gets convoluted or unfare is that the record executives/companies get even more of the profits than the artists do which in turn translates into higher costs to the consumer.

i had a hard time finding some old 80s heavy metal.but guess what, found it on kazaa.i think any music over five years old should be on psp sites for free download.i typed up heavy metal and got all kinds of music i have never heard of before,downloaded some of it,and like it.so i went out a got the cd.if p2p was not available,i would have never known about this group.but i do agree,downloading music from p2p is stealing,i mean why buy the cd when you can get it for free?