MrJimBass, wow you are a total pr*ck aren't you? Another troll with an axe to grind..yep that's you.
As for your comments, I suggest you check out http://www.againsttcpa.com and see all the 'wonderful' things will soon be doing for you.
Computers are just a TOOL, they are NOT your life. Well, maybe yours but certainly not mine! And I do not want BillG, nor Intel nor anyone else telling me how/what to use my system for. Linux (based on Unix, the world's most stable & proven operating system..bar none) whips M$oft and their shoddyly programmed OS every day of the week and then some. I use Linux...Hell with Windoze. As a matter of fact, u would pay $0 for most Linux software & its very stable. Check out the open source community sometime. You'll be glad you did.
And once again....TCPA will change your life. No conspiracy theory, it's REAL and it's COMING whether you want it to or not!!!

Interesting reading

Look you fool I was working on computers when you were a thought in your fathers balls. I was not a programer but a computer repair specialist that traveled all over the country fixing computers for large corporations. I do not need Linux, or Microsoft to run or set up a computer. I would bet my last dollar that you dont even know one DOS command to start a computer. I stated that computer technology has created more jobs than have been lost. Now if you are worried about Bill Gates knowing your whole life history like he already does then learn DOS and you wont have to worry about a dam thing. You like Linux then use Linux but just remember thier system is just as unstabe as Microsofts. I should know because I work on them. Dont let anyone tell you that Linux is better than Microsofts system. That is a bunch of BS. Microsoft is the easiest and most stable of the 2 systems to run. Enough said.

Interesting reading most of which is based upon supposition and a rather jaded point of view from the usual MS hating sheep. The linux you so obviously love is no more secure than my XP install it too has its flaws and its problems, but the simple fact remains windows is inherently more user friendly than linux, simple fact. The point is if the roles were reversed and linux was the OS of choice for most people you would then see the flaws it really does have, but then again it really is easier and more fashionable to hate bill gates and MS as a whole.

"but at present it is the only choice some people have got"

That's not true, you have Linux and other Open Source software. Linux just needs more multimedia support. Afterdawn has a great wealth of Windows software but very few Linux choices. Why? Because the authors do not write for Linux. I know it's a egg and chicken thing, but until we wake up, we'll be stuck with Windows as a multimedia solution.

"but at present it is the only choice some people have got"

I meant it is the only viable option for many people windows is really as simple as it gets for some people. Linux is an alternative agreed but it isnt exactly user friendly as windows and the vast majority of prople would have a problem using it.

don't get me wrong I like microsoft windows however
the one thing I don't like is that it is that the company is such a monopoly that the smaller companies
tring to develop something beter never get a chance to get out the door.

-Mike

Listen, I am getting tired of the "Micro$oft blows, Linux rules" and the counter "Linsux blows, Microsoft rules" argument.

I have used computers since the days before DOS... I programmed and repaired equipment for TRS-80's back in the Model days. I currently run both Linux (on my server) and XP/Linux dual boot on my desktop computer. I also run a business repairing computers and still program in my spare time. The fact is Linux is more stable and more accessable to fixing bugs... if you are a tech geek. It is great the most of the claims of its advantages over Microsoft are well founded. It is getting easier to use all the time. However for the mainstream user is steal isn't very practical. Mainly due to the complexity of installation and use of most programs. My grandmother just isn't up to learning how to install and troubleshoot a Linux install, never mind how to use most of the programs.

On the other hand Microsoft is much easier to use, but you get a big tradeoff... it is buggy as hell with major security flaws. It has loads more software than Linux, but in general they don't have the powerful capabilities of the Linux counterparts. Yes Linux has security flaws too but on average they get fixed much quicker and reliably. But until Linux can supply the transparent ease of use and automation of Windows while keeping its powerful access to the internals, and until they get more mainstream support from software vendors (Wine helps but emulation or alternate API's will always be playing catch-up) then Linux will never be as big as Microsoft.

As for the pirating, Microsoft charges too much. That is no excuse for stealing. But no matter what they charge the problem would always be there. To the guy that pined for the days of DOS and said there wouldn't be pirating then... LOL you must have forgotten. Every city I visted back then had pirate clubs where people would meet and swap copies of software, or you could log on to the local BBS and get stuff. Pirating goes back even to the TRS-80 (when I was younger and less scrupulous I had tons of 5 1/4" floppies of pirated games and utilities for the TRS-80 and even the TI-99 4/A)... DOS has nothing to do with the availability of pirating.

to JimMrBass
[Quote]
Computer technology has created many more jobs than have been lost because of it. Just check the stock market. Before computer technology do you know what the stock market was closing at. Now look at today what it is closing at. Before you make a statement like you did check your facts. I am not saying some jobs haven't been losed, because they have, bur have been replaced with better and higher paying jobs. Today the majority of people have more than they ever had years ago. Get your head out of where the sun never shines and you will see all of these statements I made are true not like yours. [Quote]

what a load of B.S mate
give me an example of a higher paid job before computer technology took over??

Dentists. Medical etc.

-Mike

Lawyers, electricians, architects, just about anything with a college degree.

*LOL* they don't rely on computer technology
their pay hasn't increased from the introduction of computer technology,maybe a small pay rise each year due to CPI or to recoup out going costs on equipment

[Quoe]
Lawyers, electricians, architects, just about anything with a college degree[Quote]

wheres the computer technology for them ?? with the exception of electrical automation and architects for designing their buildings,etc....their pay hasn't increased as stated due to the introduction of computers....

[QUOTE]their pay hasn't increased from the introduction of computer technology,maybe a small pay rise each year due to CPI or to recoup out going costs on equipment[/QUOTE]

Maybe not, but that is missing the point of what he said. He didn't say that existing jobs got paid more. He said that computers created more jobs than they lost. I think instead of burdening him with trying to come up with jobs that were created due to computers (programmers, data entry, CGI artist, web developers, just to name a few) the burden should be on you to show how more jobs have been lost than the number of jobs created. What industries have been wiped out (not just evolved) due to computers. Mind you it should be enough of a loss to merit your reply that his statement is "bullshit".

[QUOTE]wheres the computer technology for them ??[/QUOTE]

Lawyers: the ability to more easily and quickly search case law, communicate with clients, potential witnesses, keep abreast of current events that may impact cases. All which results in more effeciency of work. Never mind the ease now of templates for often used or even seldom used legal documents and the other ways it makes their secretaries more efficient. Efficiency is money since more work load can be taken on without bogging down...

This trend extends to almost every field on the planet. Hard to find a business that doesn't use computers is one form or another. The reason? It is more efficient... and that means more money over all. You might not see a per hour increase in wages... but you will see a trend of increased business due to the workload being lifted a bit freeing them to handle more business than before.

well i'm sorry but thats how i interpreted his writing,computers bought more jobs,creating higher wages,which is not true.
now if you are from the USA i don't know your goverment/state goverement laws to wages but here in OZ land we have set base award wages,the employer isn't allowed to pay less than the set rate,it's at their discretion as to whether they pay you above the award rate or not,and in most cases they don't unless you are totally commited...like 24/7,no annual leave,etc,etc...or you are that damn good at what you do and make the company millions :)

[Quote]
What industries have been wiped out (not just evolved) due to computers. Mind you it should be enough of a loss to merit your reply that his statement is "bullshit". [Quote]

one industry that has almost been wiped is automotive technician(the good old mechanic) very soon they will be obselete,as everything is computerised now,and not much goes wrong with the mechanical side of things nowadays,the industry is slowly being taken over by automotive electricians.
also a lot of jobs have been lost and not replaced due to computerisation,as they only need to hire 2 people for the job now and not ...say for arguments sake 12 workers (working two 12 hour shifts)

In the US you get paid based on what your prospective employer is willing to hire you for, and what you are willing to settle for. If McDonalds was willing to hire your services as a hamburger flipper for $40/hour and you were willing to make that much, then you would be the highest paid hamburger flipper in the US and nobody could say anything about it. If they only wanted to pay you $6.50 and hour and you accepted, then you would be about average. But the employer also knows that if he wants to pay you less than average you might not take the job. So the incentive is to keep with the average for what the position is worth.

The only check on the wages in this regard is the minimum wage that a job may hire for. This is the same amount for all industries regardless of the job position.

[QUOTE]one industry that has almost been wiped is automotive technician[/QUOTE]

Not true... I see many mechanical problems with cars still. Just recently my mothers brand new Impala had to get the alternator replaced. I had to have the breaks on my Ford Excursion replaced, etc. A piston is piston, the cars still use sparkplugs, there are still valves and pumps and rods and joints and many other parts that go bad that need replacing. Most mechanics in the US have made the leap now to buying computer diagnostic equipment for tracking down problems in both the mechanical and computer systems in the vehical, and many have even become well versed on how to replace a bad computer system. As a matter of fact the home mechanic that still wants to work on his own vehical has this same equipement available for purchase for himself, as well as the books to study to learn how to fix it all himself.

[Quote]
Not true... I see many mechanical problems with cars still. Just recently my mothers brand new Impala had to get the alternator replaced. I had to have the breaks on my Ford Excursion replaced, etc. A piston is piston, the cars still use sparkplugs, there are still valves and pumps and rods and joints and many other parts that go bad that need replacing. Most mechanics in the US have made the leap now to buying computer diagnostic equipment for tracking down problems in both the mechanical and computer systems in the vehical, and many have even become well versed on how to replace a bad computer system. As a matter of fact the home mechanic that still wants to work on his own vehical has this same equipement available for purchase for himself, as well as the books to study to learn how to fix it all himself. [Quote]

maybe so,your mechanics must be on a huge wage then,mechanics here are in demand,but won't accept the job because of the lousy pay,i know this for a fact because i am a motor mechanic.our companies have all the diagnostic tools for the modern day vehicles,but as stated pay is lousy,all the mechanics have moved into truck driving,theres the demand and thats where the money is,double what you earn as a motor mechanic.
as for computer systems as you stated for motor vehicles,the mechanics here are well equipped to fix the problems,but a majority of the time,it's in the electrical system that a fault occurs,therefore making the automotive mechanic industry almost obselete down here because the auto electrician can handle changing IAC valves...MAP sensors,etc,etc,and like i stated pay is lousy.no-one seems interested any more

Well then, both of my replys to your comments have resulted in a "well it isn't like that here because pay is lousy"... personally I love OZ and think it is a great place with wonderful people, but it sounds like some things need to be changed to better suit the worker. The problem then isn't with computers, it is with faulty labor laws that benefit the company more than the worker. Might want to start a letter writing campaign to your local politicians, or get politically active during voting season ;-)

it's being done mate...the government have come up with a plan in the IR sector,and majority of australians aren't happy with the changes and have been rallying against the changes,but to my knowledge the government aren't listening,they are stating its for the better of all australian workers,and as australians...like your country the USA we don't take things laying down :)
but my reading from the original post that you and i have discussed still stands,YES i agree,we live in a computer society now,but it has not created any more jobs,in fact it has halved them,like my argument sake in a previous post,companies that are going fully computerised are halving there workforce,
again for argument sake ...a company that has say 1500 workers,they are making half redundant,and training up the other half to operate the computers,then dividing the 750 left employees into 12 hour shifts for 24/7 operation(375 on day shift,then 375 on night shift)...so wheres the money being made there for the worker,by going computerised.it's all being recouped by the company,selling their products.
that is how i read the original post from jimmy,he came accross to me as computers increased jobs and pay,and i don't agree,as stated i said it was BS

i am actually from tasmania and our wages a far below our mainland counterparts,sydney,melbourne,queensland,etc,etc
we have agencies that bargain for better wages and conditions,but when the respective departments meet with the agencies/union reps,the government are pretty tough to negotiate with,as i'm sure it's the same with your government

Your analysis only works if the remaining people stay out of work. They more often move to another company or another industry. In some cases they start their own businesses. And your analysis doesn't take into account the totally new jobs created by the computer industry. No only the jobs involved in some aspect of programming, but the designers and fabricaters of computer parts, the repair people, the sales people devoted only to computer items... and it stretches to every industry that has been touched by computers or computer related technology in any respect. That includes items like the GPS systems in cars, iPods, childrens toys, video game consoles, cars (as you mentioned before), virtually every aspect of our lives is touched by computers in ways it wasn't before. And virtually all those things require teams of people to invent, fabricate, sell, and support them. If the job markets were full of happy workers before and unemployment negligable... where did the workers come from to fill all these new positions? Yes from the birth rate... but also from people that had previous jobs in an elimiated position. If you were to lose your job as a mechanic today, what would you do? Curl up and wither away? Find a new job in the field with another company? Retrain to work in slightly different but related field? Or totally change your career direction and enter a new field? The answers to that question says what has happened in the majority of the cases you describe. A very small percentage are the ones that actually retire from work life. You just not looking at the bigger picture.

mooman_fl
whilst your analysis is reasonable and feasable,you also have to take into account what makes the computer replacement parts,like you said computers have taken us over,everything is made by computers,it's a hairy one,if i was to give up..yes i would retire :) i'm from a non computer generation,even though i have been taught the required skills for my position...hairy and scary,also hard to explain