AfterDawn: Tech news

Paramount decision leaves retailers explaining

Written by Rich Fiscus (Google+) @ 24 Aug 2007 18:54 User comments (36)

Paramount decision leaves retailers explaining After Paramount Home Entertainment announced last week that they'll be releasing new titles exclusively on HD DVD, instead of both HD DVD and Blu-ray, retailers were left to explain to their customers why "Blades of Glory", which had been scheduled for an August 28 Blu-ray release, won't be available in that format.
Hastings Entertainment did not have time to change weekend circulars promoting Blades of Glory on Blu-ray. Instead, store managers will place disclaimer signs aside Blades of Glory displays, explaining to people that due to recent studio decisions, the film is no longer available on that format.

“I think there will be a lot of people who purchased BD titles that will be upset that they can’t get [Blades of Glory] on Blu-ray,” said Mason Goodfellow, Hastings video category manager. “They are now questioning about what they got in the past, where they invested money in Blu-ray already.”

It may be interesting to see what happens as Paramount titles that people were planning to eventually buy on Blu-ray become available on HD DVD. We may get more evidence about how much difference the availability of particular movies make to the success of a format.

One such test will be the release of restored episodes of the original Star Trek, which are supposed to be released later this year.

Source: Video Business

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36 user comments

124.8.2007 18:57

That's awesome!! Go HD-DVD!!!

224.8.2007 19:22

this is stupid i dont want to go out and buy a blu ray player or a
hd dvd player if i can only buy half of the movie selection
movie studios are just being retarted

324.8.2007 19:51
aabbccdd
Inactive

this is why i haven't bought either format because this crap is going to continue for a while.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 24 Aug 2007 @ 22:01

424.8.2007 20:20

id LOVE to see what would happen if a chinese manufacturer releases a cheap dual player in time for the holidays..HAHA

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 24 Aug 2007 @ 20:37


524.8.2007 20:30

Thats something I didn't know, I thought disks were made at least a month in advance.

According to this article that means that disks aren't made until about a week before it hits shelves, interesting.

Peace

624.8.2007 21:52

Can you say r-e-t-a-r-d-s? Anyone who has bought Blu-ray or HD-DVD already and starts whining about onr or the other is just a moron. "Oh . . . . [sob][sob], I bought a PS3 because the $6.00/hr, parttime, 18 y/o, acne-faced clerk told me it was the winning format, . . . and I listened." I can't stand retards who buy into something not knowing what they are doing. If you have the money, go for it, and buy every format in existence. As for me, I research it on my own because I know how to do something called READ.

Blu-ray may still have better support from the studios, but just looking at the devices, HD-DVD is much better. I can say this without prejudice because I haven't bought either one.

724.8.2007 22:00
aabbccdd
Inactive

when they release a dual format player that up converts DVDs also at a price of 399.00 thats a good quality deck or less then i will buy one. not till then

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 24 Aug 2007 @ 22:00

824.8.2007 22:58
BIGnewb
Inactive

how is hd-dvd better?look at the specs next time.blu-ray has way more capacity than hd-dvd.you can't say hd-dvd is better with nothing to support that.

924.8.2007 23:50

This should cause a lot of distress amongst early adopters. Hopefully this distress gets heard by the studios and greater strides are made to get closer to the one disc that rules them all.

Then again, all of us waiting in the wings to see the victor of this war far outnumber those who have already purchased an Hi Def format. We will just casually stroll into our favorite retailer and pick up our movie and go home to watch it not worrying about whether our format will have support tomorrow.

Long Live Standard Definition DVD!

1025.8.2007 0:22
nptwenty
Inactive

Originally posted by BIGnewb:
how is hd-dvd better?look at the specs next time.blu-ray has way more capacity than hd-dvd.you can't say hd-dvd is better with nothing to support that.
Beta Max was supported by Sony and was a better format. But VHS won. Its all down to the people.
I own a PS3 but could'nt care less about either format. Untill Full HD Tvs are standard there's no point. When Sony made a deal with Blockbuster & Woolworths to sell Blu -Ray only nobody battered a eyelid but now a studio has gone HDDVD only everyone's moaning. Iv'e seen 300 on HDDVD and its friggen awesome! Casino Royal I watched on Blu-Ray was'nt as impressed.

1125.8.2007 1:21

Originally posted by BIGnewb:
how is hd-dvd better?look at the specs next time.blu-ray has way more capacity than hd-dvd.you can't say hd-dvd is better with nothing to support that.
What audio code does Blu-ray have that HD-DVD not have standard? I can name two that HD-DVD has standard that Blu-ray does not have standard: Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD. Does Blu-ray have internet support? Is Blu-ray region-free?

Outside its size and coating, the Blu-ray is, "Well . . . maybe we will have it. It is optional." The HD-DVD has clear mandatory features.


1225.8.2007 5:07
hughjars
Inactive

Anyone who was daft enough or so poorly informed so as to not realise that a game console could not and would not 'win' the (much bigger) adult a/v market is onto a loser from the off.

That's why Paramount dumped Blu-ray.

Too much cost associated with what will be a (relatively) small and to all serious intents and purposes 'PS3 proprietary format'.
Welcome to the new UMD.

HD DVD offers everything Blu-ray does (and when the burners arrive with TL 51gb discs it'll even beat it for sheer capacity).

Content is now on HD DVD's side too (just for all those who used to claim their 'support' for Blu-ray was only based upon content).

Before Paramount's announcement a Blu-Ray supporter had access to 62% of all available HiDef titles, while a HD DVD supporter had access to 61%.

After the Viacom/Paramount/Dreamworks/MTV Film/Nickelodeon announcement the HD DVD supporter still has 61% - that hasn't changed, but the Blu-Ray supporter now has only 55%.

This does not take imports into account or odd disks distributed in some countries, (HD DVD's Studio Canal releases aren't there in those stats for instance). The figures are based on:

http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php

http://hddvdstats.com/index.php

These numbers cover American releases only.

Neither owner gives up on half of all available titles.

The HD DVD supporter misses out on 39% while the Blu-Ray owner now misses out on 45%.

But if you take into account that 60 of those supposedly 'exclusive' Blu-ray titles are in fact available on HD DVD internationally
(which thanks to HD DVD being region-free everytime you can buy without worry)
it turns out Blu-ray currently has in fact only 110 or so exclusive titles
(and that number was true before this move by Viacom/Paramount. MTV Film/Dreamworks/Nickelodeon, as Paramount ramp up their support of HD DVD that gap can only widen).

CEDIA in a couple of weeks is certain to be very interesting, more excellent news for HD DVD is expected.

1325.8.2007 6:06

I was going to post something about this article, but I keep getting distracted by aabbccdd's pics...

1425.8.2007 6:29

I think the girls are quite beautiful but perhaps they should be on another site.

1525.8.2007 7:26

Originally posted by gallagher:
What audio code does Blu-ray have that HD-DVD not have standard? I can name two that HD-DVD has standard that Blu-ray does not have standard: Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD. Does Blu-ray have internet support?
Blu-Ray has both audio codecs but they are optional so it depends on the studio not Blu-Ray.Far as internet connectively as of now no, but why would anyone need it & HD-DVD hasn't done a good job of using there internet connectively other than firmware updates.


Originally posted by nptwenty:
I own a PS3 but could'nt care less about either format. Untill Full HD Tvs are standard there's no point. When Sony made a deal with Blockbuster & Woolworths to sell Blu -Ray only nobody battered a eyelid but now a studio has gone HDDVD only everyone's moaning. Iv'e seen 300 on HDDVD and its friggen awesome! Casino Royal I watched on Blu-Ray was'nt as impressed.
So you watch 300 on HD-DVD & watched Casino Royal on Blu-Ray.Let me guess you own a PS3 but you didn't know 300 was on Blu-Ray but you want to compare the two that makes a lot of sense.

Originally posted by hughjars:
Anyone who was daft enough or so poorly informed so as to not realize that a game console could not and would not 'win' the (much bigger) adult a/v market is onto a loser from the off.

That's why Paramount dumped Blu-ray.



Really that bout a asinine comment i every heard on this site you really need to do some research on the PS3 BD player because Many A/V retailers have said that its a High end BD player & was the only BD player to support 1.3 on it launch day.As of now its still one of the top BD player on the market regard less that its a gaming console also.Paramount switched because Microsoft paid them not because they seen HD-DVD was better.


Originally posted by hughjar:
Content is now on HD DVD's side too (just for all those who used to claim their 'support' for Blu-ray was only based upon content).
So now you have change up on me because you told a month ago that HD-DVD studios was just as better than Blu-Ray.Adding paramount not going to do it my friend look at the HD movie sells & tell me how many Paramount has in the top twenty other than 300.........


Bottoms broke down studio market share within Blu-ray-exclusive studios, showing that Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment commands a 14% piece; 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment, 16%; Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, 18%; MGM Home Entertainment, 3%; and Lionsgate, 7%.

The HD DVD-only side accounts for 23% of the market, including 10% from Universal Studios Home Entertainment share and 13% from Paramount Home Entertainment. Warner Home Video, producing in both HD DVD and Blu-ray, accounts for 19% of the high-def market.











Look people Blu-Ray & HD-DVD are the same they use the same tech.I don't know how some people can see this very big different.Everyone knows the Problem with Blu-Ray is Price,The problem with HD-DVD is movie exclusives.The positives for Blu-Ray is a lot of major studio support & The positives for HD-DVD is cost.Chose the format that fit you.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 25 Aug 2007 @ 7:57

1625.8.2007 10:24
aabbccdd
Inactive

well maybe by the Christmas season we will see another price drop. this will probably go on for several more years before we have a clear winner

1725.8.2007 12:28

How can you just pick a format and stick to it? Anybody can stock up on hd-dvd or blu-ray films and players. If you end up on the losing side what are you going to do then? Hundreds of dollars wasted. Sony will do everything that's in their power to push blu-ray even if its wheels are worn out. PS3 games are recorded in blu-ray if they do get knocked out they would need to find a way to modify their hardware so its games can be recognized in hd-dvd format and hope that the hd-dvd camp does not blacklist Sony in their attempts to negotiate licensing of hd into their PS3 or future technology. Now that would be embarrassing. I'm kind of hoping that would happen. My folks bought a Beta Max back in the late 80’s and its been collecting dust ever since VHS won. I got several blank tapes and its reproduction is near DVD quality but nobody cared about specs. All that matters here is the cost of manufacturing and disc reproduction. Having higher capacity discs in regards to better compression, advanced codecs and cheaper production costs will not help blu-ray at all. Blu-ray is slightly better than DVD but its only achieved if viewed on a HD TV. Might as well author a bunch of dvds and stick them on a blu-ray disc as there is almost no quality difference, larger storage space the more crap you store. I don’t think neither format will be eliminated. One format will be used for films and the other for storage. I wouldn’t mind using blu-ray just for storage. HD DVD is has superior quality reproduction as many studios have come to realize and its production cost are much cheaper.

1825.8.2007 12:39
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by nextgen76:
Far as internet connectively as of now no, but why would anyone need it
- Er, because a lot of the supposedly appealing fabbo new 'extras' will depend on it?

Typical of the blu-ray side tho to downplay something they will claim vital later when they eventually get around to it themselves with 'profile 2.0'.

Mind you hardly any of the Blu-ray players are 'profile 1.1' compliant never mind 2.0.

In fact the only Blu-ray players confirmed as 'profile 1.1 compliant' are the $2000 Denon (which is not yet available) or the $900(?.....we're still awaiting confirmation of the actual price) Samsung BDP5000 dual format player (also not yet available)......not that the Blu-ray side will say much about this to their prospective customers!

Originally posted by nextgen76:
HD-DVD hasn't done a good job of using there internet connectively other than firmware updates.
- Is that like the PS3 has needed repeated firmware updates? :P

The fact is that net connectivity is there, working and set to be a part of all the HD DVD players sold to date.
It just hasn't been used greatly yet, that's all.

In contrast to Blu-ray where it isn't even a proper part of the required spec yet.

Originally posted by nextgen76:
Let me guess you own a PS3 but you didn't know 300 was on Blu-Ray but you want to compare the two that makes a lot of sense.
- True.

The pity about the Blu-ray version of the 300 is that it misses out on so many of the extras that the HD DVD side gets.

Originally posted by nextgen76:
Really that bout a asinine comment i every heard on this site
- LMAO.

Cry me a river......and try and wise up & develop a sense of proportion while you're at it.

Originally posted by nextgen76:
you really need to do some research on the PS3 BD player because Many A/V retailers have said that its a High end BD player & was the only BD player to support 1.3 on it launch day.
- Which really tells you everything you need to know about the desperately tragic state of the rest of the Blu-ray market.

Cut to the chase, PS3 is Blu-ray to all serious intents and purposes.

Side-step it all you like but the central truth there holds, a mere game console was never and could never win the adult a/v market
(as indeed the PS3's poor sales numbers prove).

.....and as a high def player the PS3 has it's own short-comings too (particularly when it comes to it's audio performance).

Originally posted by nextgen76:
As of now its still one of the top BD player on the market regard less that its a gaming console also.
- Yeah, like I said it says everything you need to know about the appalling state of the BD side of the market.

Originally posted by nextgen76:
Paramount switched because Microsoft paid them not because they seen HD-DVD was better.
- Let's see you prove that (with something that actually proves it as opposed to a report of 'biased Bill Hunt's claims being reported in another paper or a report of a rumour.
You have no serious actual factual basis for this claim.)

In fact this is one of the most laughable claims the Blu-ray fanclub have tried to make yet.
As if $150 million is a big deal in Hollywood - nevermind to a real giant in Hollywood like Viacom/Paramount.

.......still I guess it keeps the blinkered idiot fanclub types from actually looking at and considering what Viacom/Paramount actually had to say on the matter, eh?

Originally posted by nextgen76:
So now you have change up on me because you told a month ago that HD-DVD studios was just as better than Blu-Ray.
- No, that's not what I've been saying (if I understood that comment properly.....your writing isn't easy sometimes, you know?).

Actually I've been saying that anyone who imagined that the situation with the movie studios was set in stone whilst the market was so tiny and immature was just fooling themselves.

I have previously pointed out that in terms of available content HD DVD led Blu-ray (thanks to the international situation and it being region-free everytime) and had more exclusive content available (even before the Viacom/Paramount move),
This was true and factually correct.

But go ahead, you made the claim so you back it up.
Feel free to post up anything different if you can find it (and let us all see the link so we see some context).

I have said for some time that ultimately the studios will always follow the money as the market develops and matures.
It is already very clear that PS3/Blu-ray has appalling attachment rates (less than 1 movie per player) whereas HD DVD has much better attachment rates (over 4 movies per player).

All it takes now is time.

The more HD DVD players sold the more that better attachment rate works in HD DVD's favour.
Paramount know that, they know HD DVD is set to release players under $200 very soon & that the HD DVD numbers sold will rise substantially.

Viacom/Paramount also know all about Blu-ray (having tried it for a year) and know all about the additional costs and the economics of working with it.
Paramount know that the relatively slim margin of additional sales the PS3 generates is more than offset by the extra costs of Blu-ray production.
That's what they said.

Originally posted by nextgen76:
Adding paramount not going to do it my friend look at the HD movie sells & tell me how many Paramount has in the top twenty other than 300.........
- Er, you seem to be under the strange illusion that the 'market' is static & that now that Viacom/Paramount have moved decisively & decided to be HD DVD exclusive that Viacom/Paramount/Dreamworks/MTV Film & Nickelodeon won't be releasing more of their huge catalogue!?

Wow, that's some odd logic at work there! :P

HD DVD can look forward to substantially lower than $200 player by X-mas.
Paramount know this is going to drive HD DVD sales way beyond anything PS3 can manage, they even specifically said as much.
The installation of HD DVD drives into all Toshiba laptop/notepads alone ensures an additional HD DVD installed base of around 9-10 million units (far larger than PS3) in a year (based on Toshiba laptop/notepad sales last year).

Originally posted by nextgen76:
Bottoms broke down studio market share
- Nice try but no cigar.
This isn't about this year's current box-office numbers.

Try sticking to total available content and total potential content.

That 'market share' idea has little or nothing to do with what high def content is actually available now, what will be available in the near future and what each studio has as back-catalogue they can release.

Before Paramount's announcement a Blu-Ray supporter had access to 62% of all available HiDef titles, while a HD DVD supporter had access to 61%.

After the Viacom/Paramount/Dreamworks/MTV Film/Nickelodeon announcement the HD DVD supporter still has 61% - that hasn't changed, but the Blu-Ray supporter now has only 55%.

This does not take imports into account or odd disks distributed in some countries, (HD DVD's Studio Canal releases aren't there in those stats for instance). The figures are based on:

http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php

http://hddvdstats.com/index.php

Note that these numbers cover American releases only and are pre-Paramount's move.

Neither owner gives up on half of all available titles.

The HD DVD supporter misses out on 39% while the Blu-Ray owner now misses out on 45%.

But if you take into account that 60 of those supposedly 'exclusive' Blu-ray titles are in fact available on HD DVD internationally
(which thanks to HD DVD being region-free everytime you can buy without worry)
it turns out Blu-ray currently has in fact only 110 or so exclusive titles
(and that number was true before this move by Viacom/Paramount. MTV Film/Dreamworks/Nickelodeon, as Paramount ramp up their support of HD DVD that gap can only widen).

Originally posted by nextgen76:
Look people Blu-Ray & HD-DVD are the same they use the same tech.
- No, not quite.

Blu-ray is at every step significantly more expensive than HD DVD - with the singular exception of the 'combo disc'
(which, for now, at this stage is being marketed as 'additional value' or an additional feature compared to a vanilla high def disc).

Originally posted by nextgen76:
I don't know how some people can see this very big different.
- Cost & BD+ make all the difference in the world. :P

Love the climb-down by the way, very funny.

It's such an amusing change from all those months of that 'we already won' & 'HD DVD stands no chance' BS.

Originally posted by nextgen76:
Everyone knows the Problem with Blu-Ray is Price
- Er, no, it's not just that.

The BD+/DRM issue is very very big for a lot of people......and relying so heavily on a game console is also putting a lot of prospective owners off too.

......and the Blu-ray response to their pricing problems?

(1)Have a stock-clearance sale on the dead 60gb PS3 sku but bring in a new sku at the old price point (a fake price cut in other words) and
(2)release the Sony S300 - a supposedly 'cheap' Blu-ray player @ $450 or so about 6 months before 'profile 1.1 is set to be mandatory.

The Sony S300 is not 'profile 1.1' compliant btw......talk about built-in obsolescence.
I'm looking forward to the back-lash from customers finding out they are going to miss out on the 'extras' that 'profile 1.1' compliance is supposed to bring.

Not forgetting the later profile 2.0 requirement for your net connectivity.

But then Blu-ray always was rushed and is basically unfinished.

I'm looking forward to them finally admitting that the PS3 isn't profile 1.1 compliant
(where is that necessary secondary video decoder?).
Cue lots of disappointed PS3 owners.

(and again this doesn't include any mention of the even more demanding 'profile 2.0' requirement/standard)

Originally posted by nextgen76:
The problem with HD-DVD is movie exclusives.
- Er, no it isn't.

Blu-ray is the format that has that problem actually (and even more so now that Paramount has completely dumped Blu-ray).

HD DVD has 165 exclusive movies out of a total title list of approx 272, see here -
http://hddvdstats.com/index.php

Blu-ray claim to have 172 exclusive titles out of a total list of approx 279 available titles, see here -
http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php

But that is wrong and only applies to movies bought within the USA.

If you source internationally (hardly difficult these days on-line) it turns out around 60 of those supposedly 'Blu-ray exclusive' titles are available on HD DVD.

You can find out all about it here - http://areahd.dvdtiefpreise.com/?p=109

and here -
http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?p=45960#post45960

So Blu-ray actually has something like only 110 exclusive movies. (largely sequels, kids and adolescents movies too IMO)

It also turns out therefore HD DVD has another 60 movies to add to that 272 and actually has a larger total content number of 332 of which 165 are HD DVD exclusive.

BTW for those thinking those new Fox releases will help it might be worth bearing in mind that Fox use Highlight Video as a distributor in Germany which is HD DVD = Fox movies appearing on HD DVD.

Originally posted by nextgen76:
The positives for Blu-Ray is a lot of major studio support
- No, not any more it's not.

The studios are now pretty evenly split - but only for now.....expect more good news for HD DVD at CEDIA tho.

In terms of available content Blu-ray now trails HD DVD significantly.

See above.

Originally posted by nextgen76:
The positives for HD-DVD is cost.Chose the format that fit you.
- Well anyone with a handle on the true facts can see there is a lot more in the way of 'positives' for HD DVD than mere cost alone.

Blu-ray will survive (at least as long as the PS3 does) as a proprietary format for the PS3 - so as the studios go HD DVD there will at least be some catalogue left for it - Sony (& their studio/publishing/distribution partners) if nothing else eventually.

(But who in their right mind doesn't think Paramount's cost comments don't apply to everyone else?)

......and yes that girl is rather gorgeous!
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 25 Aug 2007 @ 17:35

1925.8.2007 20:04

Im not going to argue with that Hughjars, as, for the most part it is accurate(although theres still a fair bit of crap mingled with opinions stated as fact. But to say:

Quote:
I have said for some time that ultimately the studios will always follow the money as the market develops and matures.
It is already very clear that PS3/Blu-ray has appalling attachment rates (less than 1 movie per player) whereas HD DVD has much better attachment rates (over 4 movies per player).
Is extremely flawed logic, just as you cant say the PS3 doesnt count as a BD-player you also cant say that it definitely is (being used as one) it should be obvious to anyone with half a brain that the PS3 is primarily a game console(even though lacking in games) and that they plainly arent all going to be used as BD-players. I mean with less than one movie per player (how the hell do you have only half a movie?), I highly doubt anyone has a BD-player sitting in their A/V unit with absolutely no movies purchased('cept for a few renters) , but its highly possible/probable that 90% of PS3 owners have absolutely no interest in BD at all.

Quote:
The installation of HD DVD drives into all Toshiba laptop/notepads alone ensures an additional HD DVD installed base of around 9-10 million units (far larger than PS3) in a year (based on Toshiba laptop/notepad sales last year).
Yet more flawed logic, just like all the people saying they dont want BD in the PS3 what makes you think that people want to pay for a possibly dieing format to be in their laptop even if its only a little extra, not to mention the processing power thats normally needed to power these drives. When I went out to buy my laptop I was looking for as powerful a machine I could get for as little money as possible, hence I sorted out my minimum requirements and compared Brands, anything I got extra was a bonus, I wasnt going to pay more for it.

Also as long a BD is tied to the PS3 it technically cant fail, it can become a proprietary format, but it cant die.

2026.8.2007 4:36
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by Andrew691:
although theres still a fair bit of crap mingled with opinions stated as fact.
- You're too kind. :P

Originally posted by Andrew691 :
Is extremely flawed logic, just as you cant say the PS3 doesnt count as a BD-player[
- It isn't and I didn't.

Obviously the PS3 can play Blu-ray discs, it just isnt a dedicated stand-alone player.
That's just a fact.....and not even the most important fact in this.
The 'attachment' rate is where Blu-ray is stuck making little headway.

It is highly pertinent to point out that PS3 is not shifting Blu-ray movies in the kind of numbers that the HD DVD competitor is, per player.

Originally posted by Andrew691 :
it should be obvious to anyone with half a brain that the PS3 is primarily a game console(even though lacking in games) and that they plainly arent all going to be used as BD-players.
- Well duh.
That's exactly what I'm saying and what I have been saying all along.

Originally posted by Andrew691 :
I mean with less than one movie per player (how the hell do you have only half a movie?)
- What you can do is show that despite selling around 4 million PS3s there have only been a little over 2 million Blu-ray discs sold.
This averages out at less than 1/2 a Blu-ray movie disc per player.

I'd have thought that was easy enough to grasp.

Similarly the fact that HD DVD with only 200,000 (if you don't want to count the XBox 360 HD DVD add-on) or 400,000 (if you do) has sold 1.6 million since inception.
Nothing like the often claimed 2:1 'lead'.

Even the figures from jan this year make no better reading (bearing in mind that, depending on which numbers you use, Blu-ray supposedly has sold between 10 & 20 times the number of 'players'.....and if they 'go' with the 'shipped numbers that 'advantage' gets even worse!).

According to an article from Reuters ( http://www.reuters.com/article/technolog...419176920070815 )
sales figuers between January 1 trough July 1 puts Blu-ray at 1.6M discs sold compared to about 800k discs for HD-DVD.
There is the basis of the 2:1 claim, from so many more 'players'.
Viacom/Paramount were not impressed.
I doubt they are alone in this.

Originally posted by Andrew691 :
Yet more flawed logic, just like all the people saying they dont want BD in the PS3 what makes you think that people want to pay for a possibly dieing format to be in their laptop even if its only a little extra, not to mention the processing power thats normally needed to power these drives.
- The market situation for the Toshiba burner/drive is completely different to shoving a Blu-ray read only drive into a game console.

The simple fact is that the HD DVD drive also works with HD DVD, as well as CD & DVD - if Toshiba the laptop/notepad range's prices were to go through the roof and sales collapse then you might have a point but they are not.

Like I said whether you like it or not the installation of HD DVD drives into all their notepad/laptop products means that (on the basis of last years sales) there will be another 9 - 10 million HD DVD 'players' out there.......and yes of course that will be something a little similar to the situation regarding the PS3 as those notepad/laptops won't be used exclusively as HD DVD players.

Nevertheless with more than double the number (compared to PS3 out there per year on current sales data) that wil undoubtedly have a large and positive impact on HD DVD disc sales.

Originally posted by Andrew691 :
When I went out to buy my laptop I was looking for as powerful a machine I could get for as little money as possible, hence I sorted out my minimum requirements and compared Brands, anything I got extra was a bonus, I wasnt going to pay more for it.
- Well that's nice, great & good for you, but I think you'll find that a large part of the exisiting Toshiba laptop/notepad range is expensive high end stuff.....and they sold between 9 and 10 million of them last year.
There is absolutely no credible reason to expect that to change in any significant way.

The fact is that a lot of Toshiba laptop/notepad owners will soon be discovering just how easy it is to hook up their Tosh laptop/notepad to their HD TVs
(and given the likely demographics of the users they are also highly likely to have HD TVs to hook up to, it's win/win for HD DVD and not the same at all as a rather simplistic comparison with PS3 might imply).

Originally posted by Andrew691 :
Also as long a BD is tied to the PS3 it technically cant fail, it can become a proprietary format, but it cant die.
- Which is also something I have said for a long time too - in fact both formats are now too large to just 'die' off IMO.

......but on the basis of what Viacom/Paramount had to say on production costs (and who honestly believes their experience is unique?) it may be that the sources of supply dry up until there is only Sony & the Sony connected companies left supplying content.

Strickly speaking HD DVD still trails Blu-ray in total disc sales right now but now has the greatest content avilable and exclusive content available (by far now).....it remains to be seen just how big a switch will there be when HD DVD moves and stays ahead of Blu-ray in the coming years?
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 26 Aug 2007 @ 4:38

2126.8.2007 6:31
hughjars
Inactive

Oh & one other thing.

Wouldn't it be nice if the BD fanclub were honest with their prospective customers & the general buying public & just came out with the truth about their format & admitted that Blu-ray isn't like regular DVD, thanks to BD+?

Maybe they'd like to admit & explain the reason why some Blu-ray players, such as the Sony BDP-S300, cannot playback BD-R discs?

Could it be because of the 'watermark' protection used on BD-R?

The truth is you can't just look forward to using blank burnable BD discs like you do now with DVD5/9.

2226.8.2007 8:42

Originally posted by hughjars:
Wouldn't it be nice if the BD fanclub were honest with their prospective customers & the general buying public & just came out with the truth about their format & admitted that Blu-ray isn't like regular DVD, thanks to BD+?
BD+ would be a issue wouldn't it if you got piracy in mind.Plus why would BDA put copy protection on a blank record able disc? Makes a lot of sense don't it.

Originally posted by hughjars:
Maybe they'd like to admit & explain the reason why some Blu-ray players, such as the Sony BDP-S300, cannot playback BD-R discs?
The same can be said about HD-DVD that had all kind of software & Hardware issues.

Universal Breaks Silence on HD DVD Playback Issues; Announces Disc Replacement Program

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/T...ent_Program/603
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 26 Aug 2007 @ 8:46

2326.8.2007 10:56

Quote:
Originally posted by BIGnewb:
how is hd-dvd better?look at the specs next time.blu-ray has way more capacity than hd-dvd.you can't say hd-dvd is better with nothing to support that.
Beta Max was supported by Sony and was a better format. But VHS won. Its all down to the people.
I own a PS3 but could'nt care less about either format. Untill Full HD Tvs are standard there's no point. When Sony made a deal with Blockbuster & Woolworths to sell Blu -Ray only nobody battered a eyelid but now a studio has gone HDDVD only everyone's moaning. Iv'e seen 300 on HDDVD and its friggen awesome! Casino Royal I watched on Blu-Ray was'nt as impressed.

2426.8.2007 11:12

It is not technically correct that Sony Supported BetaMax - SONY invented BetaMax. VHS (Video Home Systems) Developed by JVC (Japanese Victor Company/Matsushita won for only one reason - The licensing arrangements / Royalty payments required by JVC were much less than those for the SONY System. Thus VHS systems were cheaper to produce. Current VHS systems have Sony Betamax technology by special Licensing arrangement from SONY in return for SONY sharing SVHS technology from JVC. It all comes down to Cost not technical Superiority. The majority of people buy on price NOT quality. TV Studios still use BetaMax over VHS (Because BetaMax has always been that has higher resolution than VHS)

2526.8.2007 14:20
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by nextgen76:
BD+ would be a issue wouldn't it if you got piracy in mind.Plus why would BDA put copy protection on a blank record able disc? Makes a lot of sense don't it.
- The problem is with the S300 player.

The fact stands that the best selling Blu-ray stand-alone device, the Sony BDP-S300, can't even play BD-Rs at all.

Now either you don't know what you're 'defending' or you're deliberately trying to mislead people/potential customers.....which is it?

Cos it's in the PDF manual for the Sony model BDP-S300 "Blu-ray Disc" stand alone player.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stor...552921665088000

On page 6, the manual clearly states "this player cannot play" BD-Rs/BD-REs.

Admit it.

It's a prime example of the kind of cr@p included in Blu-ray that many people simply don't know about - and the shills & fanclub are either ignorant of too or are choosing to keep very quiet about.

Blu-ray blank media is not going to just 'work' like a larger capacity version of what exists now.
Tell the truth.

Originally posted by nextgen76:
The same can be said about HD-DVD that had all kind of software & Hardware issues.
- Er no it can't.

It's nothing like the same thing, don't be absurd.

The fact that a small run of movie discs had issues and needed either new firmware for the hardware to play them (which was quickly provided) or a replacement movie disc had to be provided (which was also quickly done) is nothing at all like the same kind of issue that the Sony S300 has.

How the hell could the the Sony BDP-S300 be released with people somehow just not noticing that it can't even play BD-Rs at all, unless that was deliberate?
It's in the manual ffs.

The truth is that the Sony BDP-S300 can't even play BD-Rs at all.

That is where they're going with Blu-ray and all that BD+ BS.
It most certainly is not going to be just like some sort of a super-capacity version of what we have now with DVD5/9.

Here's the proof......

GRTFM.

The PDF manual for the new Sony model BDP-S300 "Blu-ray Disc" stand alone player.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stor...552921665088000
Sure enough.

On page 6, the manual clearly states "this player cannot play" BD-Rs/BD-REs.

This suggests not even the Hitachi camcorder discs could be played in this particular player.

Why would they do that?

I'm all ears to hear the fanclub explain this latest round of anti-consumer cr@p.

......and speaking of which it proves nextgen76 is full of it by pretending that this is similar to a couple of HD DVD discs which needed firmwares or replacing.

If only "pirates" would want to play BD -R & BD -REs on the S300 then why do they bother making blank media at all?
(and what about 'managed copy' etc, hmmmmm?)
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 27 Aug 2007 @ 8:07

2626.8.2007 16:25

Originally posted by hughjars:
The fact stands that the best selling Blu-ray stand-alone device, the Sony BDP-S300, can't even play BD-Rs at all.
Its amazing how you can make a mountain out of a mole hill.Sony BDP-S300 is a first gen player & like most first gen player there are going to be some issues but far as that player using BD blank media are you aware of HD blank media sells not even 1% of Blu-Ray or HD-DVD sales.Blank HD media isn't selling at all right now because the cost & there are very few PC that have bd or hd-dvd drives application that take advantage of either format .Like i said non-issue.

Blu-Ray

http://www.supermediastore.com/verbatim-...ingle-pack.html



HD-DVD

http://www.supermediastore.com/verbatim-...-media-1pk.html


Dealerscope: Blu-ray and HD DVD are going nowhere fast. How will more recordable options increase adoption of either format?

Quote:
Don Patrican: Well, it’s certainly not here yet. We anticipate in late 2007 we will start to see a decent amount of high def DVD recorders and that should continue throughout 2008. We see 2009 being the critical year because in February of that year all television broadcasts will be done in high definition. This is locked in stone and we think this is going to have a dramatic impact on blank high definition DVD.
http://www.dealerscope.com/story/story.bsp?sid=67767&var=story




As you can see Blank HD media high cost right isn't selling so how would this be a issue.When DVD Blank media was first sold there wasn't on player on the market for two years that could play DVD-R or DVD+R media.


Im not going to get into cat & mouse games with you because if i wanted to i could find just about every small issue with HD-DVD EX.

Toshiba, We Have a Problem

All of this sounds pretty good so far: terrific picture quality, less glitchy than previous models, 1080p output. So where's the catch, you ask? Sadly, I did find one.

On certain discs, both HD DVD and standard DVD, I found the HD-XA2 to have a video stutter issue. To the eye it looks as if the player is dropping a frame here and there. It doesn't affect every disc, but on those it does, the problem is reproducible in the same location with repeated playback. The effect is subtle, but it's definitely there if you look for it, and it's not present on the HD-A1. I first noticed this in several spots early in 'Serenity,' during the scene where Simon is talking to the scientist and then later after the camera tilts up to reveal River hiding on the ceiling, but that movie has some jerky handheld camerawork that may mask the issue for some viewers.

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/hreview_hdxa2030207.html#problem

But unlike you i don't look for small issues i look for major issues just like your fruitless claim that BD+ is anti-consumer when it really anti-pirate but you have yet to show how its anti-consumer when it just a extra layer of copy protection which studios have the right to protect there content.

Quote:
BD Plus (BD+ for short) allows for extra levels of copy protection against digital piracy above current Blu-ray format specifications. With the announcement by the Technologies group, BD+ is now effectively ready for implementation by any Blu-ray content developer, including the major Hollywood studios.
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/T...s_to_Follow/712
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 26 Aug 2007 @ 16:51

2726.8.2007 17:03
hughjars
Inactive

LMAO.

Talk about trying to avoid the issue.
Yeah, dont talk about that, talk about this completely different subject instead!
Too funny.

(....and btw no, you're badly informed & just plain wrong (again) it's not the 'problem' preculiar to HD DVD you so obviously want to make it out to be.

You're describing 'jitter' or 'judder' which is something common to both HD DVD & Blu-ray.

This 'problem' is caused by the refresh rates; virtually all films are shot at 24 frames per second (fps) and that has been the case for decades, many screens refresh at a rate of 50, 60 or 100 times per second.
A bit of simple division shows that it's not possible to 'fit' 24 frames per second into any of these refresh rates.
That's why the ability for HD DVD & Blu-ray players to play 24fps is becoming more common - as well as screens that can make use of the signal.

Toshiba will issue a firmware for this in Sept, the PS3 got one a month or 2 back.

Bear in mind that few HD TVs can handle a 24fps output right now anyways.
http://www.contentagenda.com/articleXml/...ndustryid=45180 )

Face it nextgen76 instead of trying to swerve the issue why not just admit that either you didn't know the Sony S300 couldn't use blank BD media or you were keeping quiet about it and trying to direct attention away from this.

.....and when it is written down in the user manual in black & white it's nothing like the same as a firmware issue - although your attempt to 'soft-soap' it as if it were speaks volumes.

I suppose you'll be trying to tell us only "pirates" would want to use BD -Rs or BD -REs anyways so it doesn't matter, huh?

It's true that there are few HD DVD PC drives out there but there are rather more laptop/notepads with them (which is why HD DVD media is available and has been for some time.
That will change soon enough.

.....and when it does change HD DVD will be the format people can easily burn & use.

In contrast to the (6 months away from being obsolete - the Sony S300 was never capable of being 'profile 1.1 compliant) Blu-ray players you won't be finding a single HD DVD player with any similar warning in the manual stating that it cannot play HD DVD blank media.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 27 Aug 2007 @ 8:02

2826.8.2007 17:06

Ok this seems like a rather heated debate, but I think I have to repeat something I kind of rambled on about in a different news topic.

I know that BD+ sucks for all the reasons stated, when I first heard about how this new type of drm worked i was really against blu-ray. Hd-dvd as of yet hasn't taken such a drastic step to prevent so called piracy. I know that if blu-ray becomes the predominant or so called winning format that we are stuck with BD+. The hd-dvd camp knows this and I believe is using BD+ to its benefit. If hd-dvd claims to be the easy consumer friendly format they are much more likely to win.

If hd-dvd wins and controls the hd market that’s when the lax drm is replaced with drm as bad as if not worse than BD+. Now that BD+ is in existence I feel similar drm will be an unfortunate inevitability to any future DVD/movie format.

2926.8.2007 17:23
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by redux79:
If hd-dvd wins and controls the hd market that’s when the lax drm is replaced with drm as bad as if not worse than BD+. Now that BD+ is in existence I feel similar drm will be an unfortunate inevitability to any future DVD/movie format.
- It doesn't work like that (thankfully) redux79.

HD DVD is controlled and approved by the DVD Forum.

You can't just alter specs and change the format
(unlike BD where any possible variations in BD+ may be introduced which - at least in theory - could leave players unable to play movies as the 'protection' changes in time).

Under DVD Forum rules changes have to have a minimum level of backwards compatability.

3029.8.2007 0:34

Hughjars is speaking out of that Hugearse.

The format war will be won on the world stage the US market while large is nothing compared to all the other markets combined.

Sony has all the other markets sowen up before HD-DVD came out, lol not that it has mind you.

as HD-DVD has only released in the USA and UK markets and has been able to sell 1 or 2 movies if lucky.

You can't get HD-DVD players or movies in europe or Australia or all across the Asian countries, it just doesn't exist at all, it's all Blu-Ray markets 100% lock stock and barrel.

sure HD-DVD might exist in the USA but that's the only place where it does and seems to sell in bits and pieces and that only because the market is large enough to support the 2 formats but in the other markets it's 1 format or it doesn't exist and it's already been selected as Blu-Ray.

So movie studios will have to look at that as once they go HD-DVD only their market basicly shriks straight to USA and that's it, so paramount will lose out on heaps of cash just simply selecting HD-DVD as their sole movie format.

As for adult movies mate most of the Adult studio are Blu-Ray only now.

3129.8.2007 8:26
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by xtago:
Hughjars is speaking out of that Hugearse.
- Jeeez, some people. *rolls eyes*

*hint*
the joke's clear & obvious enough (and has already been done, by myself) without you plodding along & beating it to death.

Originally posted by xtago:
The format war will be won on the world stage the US market while large is nothing compared to all the other markets combined.
- That has been claimed before but the sad truth is that what gets decided in the USA will spread across the rest of the developed world, after-all Hollywood will have the greatest influence and it is American.
(with Japan possibly remaining an exception - they did after-all cling on to Betamax until 2002 there).

....and btw, it's really funny listening to the Blu-ray fanclub clutching at straws over this.

Originally posted by xtago:
Sony has all the other markets sowen up before HD-DVD came out, lol not that it has mind you.
- Er, no they haven't.

Those "other markets" as you put it are even more minute than the market in the USA or Europe.

In other words having 'a 200% advantage of nothing is still nothing'.

If the market in the USA & Europe is immature and very small it is practically invisible elsewhere - you wouldn't care to back your claims up with some sales numbers to prove those claims would you?
Care to prove what you reckon "sewn up" actually means, huh?
I shall not be holding my breath.

.....and China?!
China, only one of the biggest and most influential of the Asian markets, declared itself for HD DVD some time ago actually - this is one of the benefits of a more 'command' structured economy.
The Chinese will have their own (close) variant of HD DVD, in fact.
That's only an HD DVD market of over 1 billion human beings right there.

Originally posted by xtago:
as HD-DVD has only released in the USA and UK markets and has been able to sell 1 or 2 movies if lucky.
- LMAO.

Where do you get this nonsense from? A Blu-ray fanzine site?

There is a small but definite HD DVD market in the UK & continental Europe; it is often supported and supplied with supposedly 'Blu-ray exclusive titles too
(that are distributed and published in Europe by HD DVD studios......Fox for instance uses Highlight Video as a distributor in Germany, Highlight are HD DVD and so some of the Fox catalogue appears on HD DVD).

Originally posted by xtago:
You can't get HD-DVD players or movies in europe or Australia or all across the Asian countries, it just doesn't exist at all, it's all Blu-Ray markets 100% lock stock and barrel.
- This is just laughably absurd fanboy-ism.

Either you are just plain ignorant of the truth or you are flat out lying.

Which is it?

Originally posted by xtago:
As for adult movies mate most of the Adult studio are Blu-Ray only now.
- This is also a lie.

In the USA only 'Vivid' are producing Blu-rap porn (and even that is an experiment to test out the response & costs on a couple of titles).
The rest of the US porn industry is HD DVD actually.

If you really are this desperate to try and promote the product/company you 'love' then try doing it somewhere where the posters are not so well informed.
You're only making a fool of yourself otherwise.
This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 29 Aug 2007 @ 8:28

3230.8.2007 3:47

How do I know because I don't live in the USA, I'm in one of the larkets you claim as non-existant but the market I'm in has 3 major shop chains not buying any HD-DVD stuff and yes these have been in the press here.

See even though you might think HD-DVD is selling in the USA is a big thing the studios have to look at the world wide market, and with all of them using blu-ray as the prime product HD-DVD isn't going to get a foot hold in those markets.

Why buy a player that has no support at all in said markets it's pointless.

the problem now is that HD-DVD will be trying to push this crap in the USA market which will only cause problems in the USA market while the rest of the world is using Blu-Ray.

You don't make money only producing movies for 1 market, the share holders will have a big spew about that.

As for the adult studios do you really think it's only Vivid? in the USA maybe you should take a look around, oh and I'm not counting the over seas adult studios as well already using Blu-Ray.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 30 Aug 2007 @ 3:50

3330.8.2007 4:11
hughjars
Inactive

Originally posted by xtago:
How do I know because I don't live in the USA, I'm in one of the larkets you claim as non-existant but the market I'm in has 3 major shop chains not buying any HD-DVD stuff and yes these have been in the press here.
- Then say where, it might be a little more open and honest to debate on the facts & basis of what you're claiming.

If you're trying to repeat that patent nonsense that 'Europe has no HD DVD' then say where you are and we can all look at and debate the facts.

Originally posted by xtago:
See even though you might think HD-DVD is selling in the USA is a big thing the studios have to look at the world wide market, and with all of them using blu-ray as the prime product HD-DVD isn't going to get a foot hold in those markets.
- Which markets?

Europe's largest movie studio - Studio Canal - is notionally dual format (or format neutral), but thay have released nothing on Blu-ray, in marked contrast to a large and growing catalogue of HD DVD releases.

Hardly a case of "all of them" only using Blu-ray.

Originally posted by xtago:
Why buy a player that has no support at all in said markets it's pointless.
- You're just trying to re-run the old argument when Blu-ray had most of the Hollywood studios supposedly supporting it.

The fact is that the market is so tiny that it's impossible to make that kind of sweeping claim.......as we jusy saw with the changes from Viacom/Paramount.

Originally posted by xtago:
the problem now is that HD-DVD will be trying to push this crap in the USA market which will only cause problems in the USA market while the rest of the world is using Blu-Ray.
- The only market that is genuinely looking like it will 'go' Blu-ray is Japan and there are clear cultural reasons why shifts in 'western' tastes etc might not effect them so greatly
(like I said the point is kind of clear and made when you know that they still had Betamax as a viable format until 2002).

The rest of your claims are sheer wishful 'thinking' or delusion.

If you're going to try and make these kind of claims then please do the board the courtesy of spelling out what and where you are specifically talking about (as I already asked you before).

Then you might be able to produce some numbers to prove what you are saying and people can discuss and/or challenge you claims properly.

I'm really looking forward to hear of these places unknown where Blu-ray already (according to you) 'won' and the numbers on which you are basing that claim.

3431.8.2007 7:21

I think Blu-Ray is better for the PC. It has higher storage capacity at the moment, and faster drive support for burning.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 31 Aug 2007 @ 22:39

3531.8.2007 15:48

Quote:
Hastings Entertainment did not have time to change weekend circulars promoting Blades of Glory on Blu-ray. Instead, store managers will place disclaimer signs aside Blades of Glory displays, explaining to people that due to recent studio decisions, the film is no longer available on that format.
This is exactly why i say we need a player that can handle both formats :)

364.9.2007 13:53
Movie69n
Inactive

alright, c'mon ppl-i know its late in the day for someone somewhere in the world so cant we all just get along??
Obviously what is needed is a dual-format player.....oh wait there is one! Actually a couple are produced-most noteably by LG and th eother by Samsung. Cost of producing such players and disks that can be played on both is what is commonly brought up to discourage companies from such ventures..
This is what a user said on a diff site I visited.......
I don't think this will work out in the end. Why? Well, first of all, it cost the studios/producer a lot to make discs that works for both. And if they only do one format(ex. Blu-ray), then if enough companies use Blu-ray, it will survive and kill off HD-DVD. Let say, they do decide to make both, they will have to make either the same content for both format or different content for the two format. One of the format will be bound to offer better contents and that would be the one consumer would go for (assuming contents do count to a certain degree). Another reason is computer companies (ex. Dell, Apple, Sony) supports Blu-ray. Many consumer will not bother getting both the Blu-ray and the HD-DVD on their computer. If enough computer are built using Blu-ray, then eventually, consumers will just go for Blu-ray instead of HD-DVD. HD-DVD will die off. Another factor is the PS3 and xbox360. They are already using only one type of format. This doesn't help in the long term. The only benefit from the Blu-ray/HD-DVD player is that you will be able to play the winner format if one fails. I strongly doubt the end of format war with a Blu-ray/HD-DVD hybrid player would create peace.
But like another user on here said the market is not static(i.e. vaccum)so prices that are sky high now will not be so in the future and so will not stay that way forever-esp when the chips/guts of the machine are mass produced by more than 2 companies.
And unfortunaley what will ultimately happen if one is chosen over the other for the "industry standard"-the consumer loses bottom line.
BTW-the 2 studios will merge in 10yrs anyway and it wont make a big diff now will it as they will have decided for us.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 04 Sep 2007 @ 14:04

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