Wow all the way back in 1995 they had this in mind?

Lol I wonder what a BR player would cost back then :P

Originally posted by hughjars:

---

I'd also add that anyone who really thinks that the consumer will primarily drive this is kidding themselves.
Costs are what will drive this, the industry's costs.

---

This just doesn't make sense and I'd have to agree with eatsushi and hade on this.

Without widespread consumer acceptance, HD media will be the next laserdisc.

Quote:

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oh and your argument about keeping margins low with the approaching 1 million milestone is useless, unless you see a large increase in the volume of media sales. maybe instead of arguing cheap prices of standalone players, you argue cheaper movie prices. have you not yet figured out where the bulk of profit comes from in the movie biz? its not from the sales of standalone players, i'll tell you that. If you want strong numbers, increase consumer support, then you have to drop the price of movies for HD-DVD.

---

Now this is something that I would definitely agree with.

Originally posted by juankerr:

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This just doesn't make sense and I'd have to agree with eatsushi and hade on this.

---

- ....and like I said, I do not think the consumer will be ignored entirely.

Originally posted by juankerr:

---

Without widespread consumer acceptance, HD media will be the next laserdisc.

---

- Consumer acceptance is a given, thanks to the strategy.

All you have to do is remove the distinction between SD & HD DVD.

The consumer is already buying HD TVs and HD TV services.
All that has to then happen is for their next upscaling DVD player to also happen to play HD DVDs
(all at the same kind of pricing they expect to pay for their SD DVD players).

Ditto the media (which as I said is on the way with single sided 'twin/total' discs).

Originally posted by juankerr:

---

Now this is something that I would definitely agree with.

---

- Like I said, I don't think it's a case of 'either, or'.
Their strategy is obviously, for now, to get more and more players out there.

You'd have to be crazy to imagine SD DVD movie sales are going to dry up anytime soon; IMO they simply recognise this reality and working with it.

I think it's obvious they are going to merge SD & HD DVD with the 'Twin' or 'Total' disc and by being everything on one side (as opposed to the flipper = effectively 2 discs glued together) there should be no cost implications.

Originally posted by nextgen76:

---

Thats not true

---

- It is true.

There are several million PS3s to a couple of hundred thousand Blu-ray stand-alones.

Why are you even bothering to try and lie about this?

Originally posted by nextgen76:

---

Blu-Ray(1995) was in development long before HD

---

- and so what?

Blu-ray was specifically developed to take power away from the consumer (it has additional 'security' HD DVD does not have and makes a selling point of it).

Blu-ray was also specifically intended to return to the involved CE corporations the kinds of profit margins they had when DVD first appeared.

.....and whilst you (not quite) trot out the old line that Sony weren't so heavily involved it is a fact that Sony are the primary developer and hold the majority of key patents in Blu-ray.

Originally posted by hughjars:

---

Consumer acceptance is a given, thanks to the strategy.

---

Not really.

HD media could remain a niche product if the studios don't universally adopt the twin/total discs.

If they release a title on SD DVD at a lower price compared to the total/twin DVD then the strategy falls to pieces. They have to completely stop producing SD DVD's for the strategy to work.

Quote:

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I think it's obvious they are going to merge SD & HD DVD with the 'Twin' or 'Total' disc and by being everything on one side (as opposed to the flipper = effectively 2 discs glued together) there should be no cost implications.

---

Cost is still a factor since you're forgetting the pre-replication process for HD DVD. Factor in the cost of authoring the discs and adding HDi features. The movie then has to be mastered and encoded in 1080p/24, not to mention those films that will carry lossless audio. Remember they have to pay royalties for the use of the VC1 codec. It will still be more expensive for the studios to produce twin/total compared to plain old SD DVD.

The other thing is to assure glitch free playback of the twin/total format. I'm keeping my fingers crossed on this in view of the sporadic reports of playback problems with combos.

Ok, no offence, but you posted information everyone already knew. Everyone knew the PS3 would have some sort of Blu-Ray playback ability. My question was, did they develop the Blu-Ray media as the sole media for PS3 games, AKA build Blu-Ray around the idea of the PS3 and not the other way around. The only reason I say this is because of your comments about it being a console format, which you haven't been able to prove yet. Yes everyone always knew that the PS3 would be a blu-ray player but was Blu-Ray developed specifically for PS3 games?

Originally posted by sciascia:

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My question was, did they develop the Blu-Ray media as the sole media for PS3 games, AKA build Blu-Ray around the idea of the PS3 and not the other way around.

---

- I doubt there was ever anythings as simple as just the one 'true' reason behind this.

Originally posted by sciascia:

---

The only reason I say this is because of your comments about it being a console format, which you haven't been able to prove yet.

---

- Well what else do you call it when the overwhelming majority (90%+) of players are game consoles?

Nevermind the theory, what is the reality?

The reality is that Blu-ray depends entirely unpon the PS3, without the PS3 Blu-ray is utterly invisible and died long ago.

Originally posted by sciascia:

---

Yes everyone always knew that the PS3 would be a blu-ray player but was Blu-Ray developed specifically for PS3 games?

---

- It was (from the original Sony perspective) a happy 'marriage' and one they imagined would push the Blu-ray format
(as they themselves admit - and note it's not the other way around).

It's been obvious for a long time that they intended to use the PS3 in this manner.
That 'Trojan horse' moniker did not come from Toshiba or Microsoft.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by sciascia:

---

My question was, did they develop the Blu-Ray media as the sole media for PS3 games, AKA build Blu-Ray around the idea of the PS3 and not the other way around.

---

- I doubt there was ever anythings as simple as just the one 'true' reason behind this.

Originally posted by sciascia:

---

The only reason I say this is because of your comments about it being a console format, which you haven't been able to prove yet.

---

- Well what else do you call it when the overwhelming majority (90%+) of players are game consoles?

Nevermind the theory, what is the reality?

The reality is that Blu-ray depends entirely unpon the PS3, without the PS3 Blu-ray is utterly invisible and died long ago.

Originally posted by sciascia:

---

Yes everyone always knew that the PS3 would be a blu-ray player but was Blu-Ray developed specifically for PS3 games?

---

- It was (from the original Sony perspective) a happy 'marriage' and one they imagined would push the Blu-ray format
(as they themselves admit - and note it's not the other way around).

It's been obvious for a long time that they intended to use the PS3 in this manner.
That 'Trojan horse' moniker did not come from Toshiba or Microsoft.

---

Granted, if HD-DVD took the same approach with X360 and the circumstances were the same as they are now for blu-ray/PS3, you wouldn't be call HD-DVD a 'Game format'. Either way, I don't feel it's necessary to refer to it as a game format when it never was intended to be one.

You keep bringing up the same things about evil sony using the ps3 as a piggy back for Blu-Ray, but nobody was denying that marketing strategy. The simple fact is, Blu-Ray was created as a multipurpose storage medium, nothing more, or less. If anything, sony should be given a pat on the back for using their common sense and figuring out the best way to get their media into peoples homes. I'm sure if Microsoft were to do the same with HD-DVD (which at one point they were supposed to) they'd be viewed as a marketing genius.

Originally posted by hughjars:

---

- It is true.

There are several million PS3s to a couple of hundred thousand Blu-ray stand-alones.

Why are you even bothering to try and lie about this?

---

Reason being that PS3 was a bargain for the price when PS3 first lauched BD standalone was 900 bucks why any smart consumer going to pay that much if they can get it 300 or 400 bucks cheaper.The reason BD standalone isn't selling well because PS3 price point right now you just can't beat & as it has showed PS3 BD player is top of the line even with the DVD-up scaler inside.

This say alot about HD-DVD if 6 million PS3 300,000 BD standalone can get BD 65 percent of the HD market in the US,95% in Japan 73% in EUR what happens when BD players reach 200 & 100 bucks ? that right HD-DVD will be a format of the past.HD-DVD with cheaper standalone can't even crack into BD share of the HD- market right now.Its all goes back too what eatsushi stated about HD media prices need to be lower also is a great point because right now HD-DVD blank media is still high now were as BD blank media is half the price it was a year ago.But BD movie are cheaper than HD-DVD movie because HD-DVD wanted to use the trojan horse combo format.

Quote:

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So where does that leave us now? To whom do Combo discs currently appeal? Average movie buyers have continued to stick with the more affordable DVD-only option, a complete failure of the Trojan Horse plan. HD DVD buyers are upset that they're being forced to pay extra for a "feature" they will rarely (if ever) use. And those who support both HD DVD and Blu-ray would just as soon buy the Blu-ray that's $5 cheaper with the same quality and features. Combo discs put HD DVD in a no-win situation.

Worse than that, the damn discs don't even work half the time! Just the other night, I sat down to watch my recently-purchased HD DVD copy of '300' on my Toshiba HD-XA2 player, and I only made it 45 minutes before the stupid thing froze up and ceased playback. No matter how many times I try to restart the movie, the disc will not play beyond Chapter 14. This is an extremely high-profile release; in fact, it's currently the best-selling title on either the HD DVD or Blu-ray formats, and the disc won't function in a top-of-the-line HD DVD player! Who wants to put up with nonsense like that? I certainly don't.

Let's not kid ourselves that this is an isolated defective disc or a one-time anomaly. Complaints about playback problems on '300' are widespread, and similar compatibility issues have plagued earlier Combo releases such as 'Children of Men', 'The Good Shepherd', 'Happy Feet', 'Superman Returns', and 'The Matrix Reloaded' (copies from the expensive 'Ultimate Matrix Collection' box set which has the bonus features in DVD format on the flip-side of the disc). Some of these will only work properly on second-generation HD DVD players but not first-generation models, and some bizarrely just the opposite. Some function fine on Toshiba's players but not on Microsoft's HD DVD add-on accessory for the XBox 360, and others vice versa. Some don't work right on any player at all.

---

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/J..._Went_Wrong/894

Really not much of a surprise the prices the hardware in the end are the same to the brunt of consuemrs us geeks and wannabes(zippy is teh wana be :P) can hash out the difference's all we want the trouble is most people don't care.


the price of the players can be within 100$ difference of each other and practicably sale the same, its when the videos fall in price thats when the quickening should come.


I the end gvie me a nice dual player and I will be done with caring who wins ,sony has sold off BD+ so tis not goign to be the beast it could have been.

Originally posted by sciascia:

---

if HD-DVD took the same approach with X360 and the circumstances were the same as they are now for blu-ray/PS3, you wouldn't be call HD-DVD a 'Game format'.

---

- If the situation was reversed and HD DVD had developed an almost complete reliance on a game console then the truth is that actually I would.

And I would believe it wholly justified to do so.

Originally posted by sciascia:

---

Either way, I don't feel it's necessary to refer to it as a game format when it never was intended to be one.

---

- Well we'll have to agree to disagree then.

The reality is the PS3 = Blu-ray.

Blu-ray is a game console format
(with a tiny amount of stand-alone & PC burner activity tacked on).

Originally posted by sciascia:

---

You keep bringing up the same things about evil sony using the ps3 as a piggy back for Blu-Ray, but nobody was denying that marketing strategy.

---

- Er, "evil"!?

I don't think I talk in those terms.

I leave all that ridiculous 'hate' and 'love' (in relation to CE corporations and their products) to the game console fans.

I do see the additional built-in DRM/security that they have deliberately incorporated into Blu-ray as anti-consumer.

Ditto their stated attempt to restore the kinds of profit margins DVD 'enjoyed' when it was new.

I merely bring up the fact that Blu-ray has deliberately piggybacked on the PS3 (which is undeniable) to re-butt the claims that such a thing was
(a) unexpected;
(b) that the PS3 was always bound to sell multi-millions on it's brand name alone - even if it is a disappointment in it's own game market and
(c) that in the light of that reality Blu-ray's performance is far from impressive in fact.

Originally posted by sciascia:

---

If anything, sony should be given a pat on the back for using their common sense and figuring out the best way to get their media into peoples homes.

---

- You seem to think that I'm calling foul on their tactics, well they're certainly legal and above board in the absolute sense but IMO it is still pretty sh*tty behaviour.

I loath the product and the intent behind it and I think their 'use' of gamers in this is pretty low.

Once their tactics are understood it can easily be seen just how they have used each market, game and video/movie.

Originally posted by sciascia:

---

I'm sure if Microsoft were to do the same with HD-DVD (which at one point they were supposed to) they'd be viewed as a marketing genius.

---

- I think anyone taking a fair-minded view of this would not be seeing any kind of equivalence between Sony & Microsoft
(contrary to some of the Blu-ray fanboy claims Microsoft don't even hold all the VC-1 patents) .
Again, IMO, that's one for the console fans to pointlessly chew over.

Originally posted by NexGen76:

---

Reason being that PS3 was......blah blah blah.

---

- You shifting to a drawn out explanation of how great & amazing you believe the PS3 to be is very interesting (to yourself) I'm sure nextgen but that was hardly relevant to the original point.

I said "the overwhelming bulk of Blu-ray capable players are PS3s.

Without PS3 Blu-ray died long ago, in fact without PS3 Blu-ray hasn't even got out of the starting blocks.

- You then tried to swerve off on to some unrelated nonsense about the beginnings of Blu-ray development.

"Thats not true Blu-Ray(1995) was in development long before HD(2003) was Blu-Ray had this advantage in Japan with 95% of the market before anything was ever launched on HD-DVD."

- I replied

"It is true.

There are several million PS3s to a couple of hundred thousand Blu-ray stand-alones. "

- Which is the truth.
Your meandering load of waffle about how great you think the PS3 is doesn't answer that point at all.

Blu-ray is utterly reliant on the PS3.

They have sold so few Blu-ray stand-alones (and expensive PC burners) that had they relied on them alone this so-called 'war' would have ended long ago......well, actually it would hardly have even started.

hughjars
dude you know I love ya but can we dial the rhetoric down a bit eh?
:P

On a side note the PS3 lacks full hardware BWC to be worth the asking price, the 360 is 100$ to much for 1 thing,the locked USB(hardware issues be damned if I can fully transfer sht back and forth as I please!).

Originally posted by ZippyDSM:

---

hughjars
dude you know I love ya but can we dial the rhetoric down a bit eh?
:P

---

Amen.

So what's up?

I've been directly asked several questions and I've dome my best to directly answer and give either the supporting facts I was asked for or given my view (which I was asked for).

Was I abusive or insulting, I don't think so.

So, like I said, what's up?

Originally posted by hughjars:

---

So what's up?

I've been directly asked several questions and I've dome my best to directly answer and give either the supporting facts I was asked for or given my view (which I was asked for).

Was I abusive or insulting, I don't think so.

So, like I said, what's up?

---

the HDVD V BR stuff...just alil thick...rhetorically speaking.... otherwise god stuff and good points.

Originally posted by hughjars:

---

So what's up?

I've been directly asked several questions and I've dome my best to directly answer and give either the supporting facts I was asked for or given my view (which I was asked for).

Was I abusive or insulting, I don't think so.

So, like I said, what's up?

---

You dodge questions like dodge ball.rotfl

You still haven't answer this or showed proof.

Originally posted by sciascia:

---

My question was, did they develop the Blu-Ray media as the sole media for PS3 games, AKA build Blu-Ray around the idea of the PS3 and not the other way around. The only reason I say this is because of your comments about it being a console format, which you haven't been able to prove yet. Yes everyone always knew that the PS3 would be a blu-ray player but was Blu-Ray developed specifically for PS3 games?

---

Your answer which i find laughable & completely dogde the question then answer with a baseless pointless answer.

Originally posted by Hughjars:

---

Because the overwhelming bulk of Blu-ray capable players are PS3s.

Without PS3 Blu-ray died long ago, in fact without PS3 Blu-ray hasn't even got out of the starting blocks.

---

But how is that possible if Blu-Ray has been launched in Japan & has been very successfully before HD was even launched like NexGen proved here?

Originally posted by Nexgen76:

---

Thats not true Blu-Ray(1995) was in development long before HD(2003) was Blu-Ray had this advantage in Japan with 95% of the market before anything was ever launched on HD-DVD.

---

Please just stop it because all you nonsense logic has been laughable.Your the only one here that hasn't been on the same page.You claim to state facts in which you got them mixed up with your opinions.

Nah this is pretty civilized conversation, especially if you'd look back at some of the old news posts where people were especially trolling and whatnot. Like Hugh said, agree to disagree which is something I wholeheartedly agree with. No hard feelings, just passing the ball back and forth.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by hughjars:

---

So what's up?

I've been directly asked several questions and I've dome my best to directly answer and give either the supporting facts I was asked for or given my view (which I was asked for).

Was I abusive or insulting, I don't think so.

So, like I said, what's up?

---

You dodge questions like dodge ball.rotfl

---

At least he dosent naw on it and droll like I do >>

and I am a cat dammit!

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:

---

You still haven't answer this or showed proof.

---

- I see, so unless it's a simplistic 'either, or' answer you call it a dodge?

Figures (from the guy who a little while back was trying to tell people a short while ago here that "Blu-ray is uncompress data").
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/590629

Wow BoSoxs, you're just way too crafty for me.

(btw you might care to know that compression is not the be-all and end-all of anything, it's whether it's lossy or lossless that matters)

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:

---

Your answer which i find laughable & completely dogde the question then answer with a baseless pointless answer.

---

- OK, so what's so "pointless" about it?

Is it true that over 90% of Blu-ray capable machines are PS3s?

Why, yes it is.

No dodge there at all.

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:

---

But how is that possible if Blu-Ray has been launched in Japan & has been very successfully before HD was even launched like NexGen proved here?

---

- Er, Blu-ray was in development.

Where did you get the idea that Blu-ray launched before HD DVD?

Do you have problems reading or something?

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:

---

Please just stop it because all you nonsense logic has been laughable.Your the only one here that hasn't been on the same page.You claim to state facts in which you got them mixed up with your opinions.

---

- You could do with a lie down in a quiet darkened room.

Seriously, you're just embarrassing yourself.

Originally posted by hughjars:

---

Where did you get the idea that Blu-ray launched before HD DVD?

---

Actually, BoSoxs07 and NexGen are, in a manner of speaking, correct. The first BluRay devices were released in Japan in April 2003, long before HD DVD was launched. It was the Sony BDZ-S77 BD-RE recorder which had the ability to record OTA or cable 1080i/720p signals:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/blu-ray/

An offshoot of the BluRay project was the ProDATA format which was designed for corporate data storage. The first ProData devices were introduced mid-2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Disc_for_DATA

BluRay as a medium for pre-recorded video (BD-ROM) did come out after HD DVD was introduced in 2006. However, as you can see, there were BluRay enabled devices long before then and long before the PS3 was introduced.

Originally posted by juankerr:

---

Originally posted by hughjars:

---

Where did you get the idea that Blu-ray launched before HD DVD?

---

Actually, BoSoxs07 and NexGen are, in a manner of speaking, correct. The first BluRay devices were released in Japan in April 2003, long before HD DVD was launched. It was the Sony BDZ-S77 BD-RE recorder which had the ability to record OTA or cable 1080i/720p signals:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/blu-ray/

An offshoot of the BluRay project was the ProDATA format which was designed for corporate data storage. The first ProData devices were introduced mid-2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Disc_for_DATA

BluRay as a medium for pre-recorded video (BD-ROM) did come out after HD DVD was introduced in 2006. However, as you can see, there were BluRay enabled devices long before then and long before the PS3 was introduced.

---

And its still not doing that well 0-o

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by hughjars:

---

Where did you get the idea that Blu-ray launched before HD DVD?

---

Actually, BoSoxs07 and NexGen are, in a manner of speaking, correct. The first BluRay devices were released in Japan in April 2003, long before HD DVD was launched. It was the Sony BDZ-S77 BD-RE recorder which had the ability to record OTA or cable 1080i/720p signals:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/blu-ray/

An offshoot of the BluRay project was the ProDATA format which was designed for corporate data storage. The first ProData devices were introduced mid-2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Disc_for_DATA

BluRay as a medium for pre-recorded video (BD-ROM) did come out after HD DVD was introduced in 2006. However, as you can see, there were BluRay enabled devices long before then and long before the PS3 was introduced.

---

Thank You i rest my case this guy is nothing more than a PR piece for HD-DVD.But if you going to know about HD formats at lease know when they was released.You the same person back in Jan or Feb that didn't even know that the combo HD-DVD format disc was released.I remember that because error5 told you & you said they was not released yet?

Dam the posts will only let you go back 6 months.

Originally posted by juankerr:

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Actually, BoSoxs07 and NexGen are, in a manner of speaking, correct.

---

- You're far too kind juankerr .

Just cos it turns out there was a small volume obscure proto-BD product (no-one had ever heard of outside of Japan) doesn't hide the fact that the type of Blu-ray and HD DVD we are discussing was not then available.

Originally posted by juankerr:

---

The first BluRay devices were released in Japan in April 2003, long before HD DVD was launched. It was the Sony BDZ-S77 BD-RE recorder which had the ability to record OTA or cable 1080i/720p signals:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/blu-ray/

---

- Exactly it was a 720p/1080i variant they tried out on a tiny scale for a short while before dropping it to move on to what we know as Blu-ray today.

Originally posted by juankerr:

---

An offshoot of the BluRay project was the ProDATA format which was designed for corporate data storage. The first ProData devices were introduced mid-2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Disc_for_DATA

---

- Thanks for that, this is the proof of what I have often said.

HD DVD is a purpose designed video medium, Blu-ray is a purpose designed bulk data storage medium.

Originally posted by juarkerr:

---

BluRay as a medium for pre-recorded video (BD-ROM) did come out after HD DVD was introduced in 2006.

---

- Indeed.

This is precisely what I have been saying.

Originally posted by juankerr:

---

However, as you can see, there were BluRay enabled devices long before then and long before the PS3 was introduced.

---

- I'm not arguing that a form of Blu-ray (but absolutely not as we now know it) was around before.

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:

---

Thank You i rest my case

---

- LMAO.

You got lucky someone knew a little more about the development background, that's all, Mr 'Blu-ray is uncompress data'.

One thing is for sure, you sure as hell knew nothing about it and remainded uttely silent about it, until juankerr mentioned & linked to it.

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:

---

this guy is nothing more than a PR piece for HD-DVD.

---

- Wrong.

But interesting that you start the whiney bitchy little snide side comments and can't refute what I've said
(hmmm, sounds like someone else around here).

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:

---

But if you going to know about HD formats at lease know when they was released.

---

- Why would I want to know the obscure & arcane roots of BD development.....you sure as hell don't know much about it judging from the, er, 'content' of your posts.

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:

---

You the same person back in Jan or Feb that didn't even know that the combo HD-DVD format disc was released.

---

- Oh right so if someone doesn't know of a particular combo disc being available that had come out that is supposed to prove what, huh?

It's a matter of timing (if what you say is true) it's hardly a fundamental of either format.

Originally posted by BoSoxs07:

---

I remember that because error5 told you & you said they was not released yet?

Dam the posts will only let you go back 6 months.

---

- Well that's very handy for you isn't it?

Originally posted by Hugh:

---

Blu-ray is a purpose designed bulk data storage medium.

---

Couldn't you have just said this before? Lol

Originally posted by sciascia:

---

Originally posted by Hugh:

---

Blu-ray is a purpose designed bulk data storage medium.

---

Couldn't you have just said this before? Lol

---

- What makes you think I haven't?

I have, several times in the past here.

Personally, I'm 100 percent satisfied with the standard DVD format. It will be a long, long, long time before I even consider changing to either HD or Blue Ray. I just have no use (at all) for either of them.

Of course, I do recognize that there are folks who just can't live without the latest and greatest toys available. I don't have a problem with that attitude as long as the people who think that way can afford to spend the money without going one cent into debt. Unfortunately, I have watched people lose their homes because they just could NOT pass up those big TVs and new cars.

Toys, should NEVER put you into debt, and let's face facts, the new Video Formats, including HD TV, are necessary ONLY because the Government and Industry are making them necessary, not because we really have a pressing need for them.

- Mike -

Quote:

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Entertainment industry analysts at Screen Media Digest and Adams Media Research aren't buying into claims by Blu-ray supporters that they're on the verge of victory in the format war with HD DVD. In fact they say nothing has changed, and both formats will almost certainly continue to compete for at least a few more years.

---

To me this is nothing new we have been saying this since the start of the two formats. I wish we could get news reports when things actually make massive change.