So I take it fgrom the silence of the other UK members here that you think your privacy is less important that some hugely rich businesses continuing to make profit and using tyranny to achieve it?

Just one look at anywhere else the British public are being allowed a say on this matter shows that this is the "one step too far", The corner we will fight from because we have been well and truly backed into it.

They cannot be allowed to take away our remaining privacy rights on the say so of some high paid lobbyists.. sheesh.. We know these fat cat career politicians are well and truly at the trough, now we see how deep.

Next they will be getting our children to report us for "anti government mutterings".. and where will that end?

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If this goes global, I predict by 2012 we'll see everyone from 10 yr olds to 80yr olds being experts in everything Tor, Darknet, P2P, PGP, remailers, chained proxies, along with their apps (Privoxy, Sockscap, TOR, etc).

I have even heard that the NSA can ascertain passwords (w/o keyloggers) merely by the sound of one's keystrokes.

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I have even heard that the NSA can ascertain passwords (w/o keyloggers) merely by the sound of one's keystrokes.

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They don't need to go that far.. Just make a couple of false allegations and they can force you to divulge that information http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/01/14/2129214

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Our state collects more data than the Stasi ever did. We need to fight back

To trust in the good intentions of our rulers is to put liberty at risk. I'd go to jail rather than accept this kind of ID card

* Timothy Garton Ash
* The Guardian,
* Thursday January 31 2008


This article appeared in the Guardian on Thursday January 31 2008 on p31 of the Comment & debate section. It was last updated at 15:16 on February 09 2008.

This has got to stop. Britain's snooper state is getting completely out of hand. We are sleepwalking into a surveillance society, and we must wake up. When the Stasi started spying on me, as I moved around East Germany 30 years ago, I travelled on the assumption that I was coming from one of the freest countries in the world to one of the least free. I don't think I was wrong then, but I would certainly be wrong now. Today, the people of East Germany are much less spied upon than the people of Britain. The human rights group Privacy International rates Britain as an "endemic surveillance society", along with China and Russia, whereas Germany scores much better.

An official report by Britain's interception of communications commissioner has just revealed that nearly 800 public bodies are between them making an average of nearly 1,000 requests a day for "communications data", including actual phone taps, mobile phone records, email or web search histories, not to mention old-fashioned snail mail. The Home Office website notes that all communication service providers "may be served with a notice by the secretary of state requiring them to maintain a permanent intercept capability. In practice, agreement is always reached by consultation and negotiation." How reassuring.

The fantastic advance of information and communications technology gives the state - and private companies as well - technical possibilities of which the Stasi could only dream. Most of your life is now mapped electronically, minute by minute, centimetre by centimetre, through your mobile phone calls, your emails, your web searches, your credit card purchases, your involuntary appearances on CCTV, and so on. Had the East German secret police had these snooping super-tools, my Stasi file would have measured at least 3,000 pages, not a mere 325.

We therefore need to strengthen the protection of data, privacy and civil rights simply to remain as free as we were before. As technology lifts the sea level of information flow, we have to build up the dykes. To a limited extent, this has been happening; some legal data protection safeguards have been improved. Our stalwart information commissioner, Richard Thomas, has fought a valiant battle to protect what the Germans call, with portentous profundity, the right to informational self-determination. A valiant battle, but a losing one - as the commissioner himself acknowledges. The warning that we are "sleepwalking into a surveillance society" comes from him.

For even as he tries to strengthen the dykes, more powerful arms of government are busy tearing them down: in the name of fighting terrorism, crime, fraud, child molestation, drugs, religious extremism, racial abuse, tax evasion, speeding, illegal parking, fly-tipping, leaving too many garbage bags outside your home, and any other "risk" that any of those nearly 800 public (busy)bodies feels called upon to "protect" us from. Well, thank you, nanny - but kindly eff off to East Germany. I'd rather stay a bit more free, even if means being a bit less safe.

Yes, I recognise that the threat from homegrown suicide bombers - like those who struck London on July 7 2005, and extremists who have been picked up since, including the recently convicted would-be beheader of a British soldier - is particularly difficult to detect. I accept that it requires some extra surveillance and prevention powers. The balance between security and liberty needs to be recalibrated. But in the last decade the British government has erred too far on the side of what is alleged to be increased security.

An over-mighty executive, authoritarian busybody instincts at all levels of government, a political culture of "commonsense" bureaucratic judgments, rather than codified rights protected by supreme courts and, until recently, a gung-ho press forever calling for "something to be done": this fateful combination has made Britain a dark outrider among liberal democracies.

The birthplace of laissez-faire liberalism has morphed into the database state. We have more CCTV cameras than anyone. We have the largest DNA database anywhere. Plans are far advanced to centralise all our medical records and introduce the most elaborate biometric ID cards in the world. All this from a government which, having collected so much data on us, goes around losing it like a late-night drunk spreading the contents of his pockets down the street. Twenty-five million people's details mislaid by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs; at least 100,000 more on an awol Royal Navy laptop; and so it goes on.

Meanwhile, the government has just laid before parliament its latest counter-terrorism bill. Besides the notorious proposal to increase the period of detention without charge to 42 days, this includes provisions that, as the attached official notes explain, allow anyone to give information to the intelligence services "regardless of any duty to keep the information private or of any other restriction" (other than those mentioned in a pair of elastic subclauses). Such information can then be shared or disclosed by that service more or less at will.

This will not do; and even the staunchest supporters of the smack of firm government are beginning to say as much. The Daily Mail, that prince of firm-smackers, yesterday ran a leading article which concluded that "Under this government - of whom the Stasi would have been proud - the balance between state power and individual liberty has been outrageously skewed. It must be restored." This is something on which press and politicians of left and right are beginning to agree.

Of course that flourish about the Stasi is hyperbole. As someone who actually lived under the Stasi, I know we're nowhere near that. But the amount of information collected and shared - not to mention lost - by the British government far exceeds the Stasi's modest 160km of paper files. The potential for it to be abused, in the wrong hands, is simply enormous. Liberty is not preserved simply by putting our trust in the good intentions of our rulers, civil servants and spooks. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

My sense is that the tide is just beginning to turn in British public, published and parliamentary opinion. I hope the Liberal Democrats, Conservatives, Labour backbenchers and the House of Lords will between them give the new bill the roasting it deserves. Some of our watchdog commissioners and more independent-minded judges are already sounding the alarm. If the government were still to be so foolish as to try to introduce the new ID cards before the next election, it could be to Gordon Brown what the poll tax was to Margaret Thatcher. Comprehensive, compulsory ID cards would directly impinge on every single citizen; this is just the kind of thing the British like to get bloody-minded about.

The Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg has said he would go to jail rather than accept an ID card of this intrusive kind. So would I. And so, I believe, would many thousands of our fellow-citizens. (There's a good website called NO2ID where you can join the fray.) Which is why, I suspect, the government won't be so foolish. But we need to draw the line well before ID cards. There are liberties that we have already given away, while sleeping, and we must claim them back.

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It's called the New World Order folks... It's been an active thing for centuries now... You guys think all of this is new? Would any of you possibly believe that the attacks on the Twin Towers on 9/11 was NOT, in fact, "terrorists," but quite possibly am American government launched attack to force this country into a war we didn't want, or need? Saddam Hussein a threat? Yeah, okay he murdered millions of people. A small squad of men coulda taken him out... ANYWAY, my point is this: Fascism is alive and well in the U.S. and has been for centuries. Take a look at our "symbolism..." The axe wrapped in bundles of rods that accompanies our Eagles and flags? Fascist symbol. And of course the most obvious pyramid with the floating eye on the back of OUR AMERICAN DOLLAR?!? A symbol for the illuminati... Anyone who still believes planes brought down the twin towers ought to check footage of controlled demolition of buildings with how the explosions at 9/11 looked. INSIDE JOB, people... It's SO obvious...

Now, I'm not a conspiracy nut, but I DO know there are sinister happenings in the governments of countries these days. What's happening in Great Britain and the U.S. AREN'T dissimilar... Facts are being distorted and names are being invented... It's all downhill from here.

And yet, there's two great movies called "The Secret" and "What The Bleep Do We Know" that will teach you WHO truly has the REAL power in the world... It's YOU... The people reading this... David Icke has a great 6 hour series on what's really going on, I suggest you all search him out and take notes... BTW: He's a U.K. citizen...

Originally posted by Gorgoroth:

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It's called the New World Order folks... It's been an active thing for centuries now... You guys think all of this is new? Would any of you possibly believe that the attacks on the Twin Towers on 9/11 was NOT, in fact, "terrorists," but quite possibly am American government launched attack to force this country into a war we didn't want, or need? Saddam Hussein a threat? Yeah, okay he murdered millions of people. A small squad of men coulda taken him out... ANYWAY, my point is this: Fascism is alive and well in the U.S. and has been for centuries. Take a look at our "symbolism..." The axe wrapped in bundles of rods that accompanies our Eagles and flags? Fascist symbol. And of course the most obvious pyramid with the floating eye on the back of OUR AMERICAN DOLLAR?!? A symbol for the illuminati... Anyone who still believes planes brought down the twin towers ought to check footage of controlled demolition of buildings with how the explosions at 9/11 looked. INSIDE JOB, people... It's SO obvious...

Now, I'm not a conspiracy nut, but I DO know there are sinister happenings in the governments of countries these days. What's happening in Great Britain and the U.S. AREN'T dissimilar... Facts are being distorted and names are being invented... It's all downhill from here.

And yet, there's two great movies called "The Secret" and "What The Bleep Do We Know" that will teach you WHO truly has the REAL power in the world... It's YOU... The people reading this... David Icke has a great 6 hour series on what's really going on, I suggest you all search him out and take notes... BTW: He's a U.K. citizen...

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While in my own opinion I don't believe in parts of the conspiracy theories that you've stated....I do believe all that has been going on in these controlled societies that tout freedom is a conspiracy and we the people are letting it happen. These are methods to control society by means of fear and keep us in our so called place. But I thought the place of the hardworking voter was above the government when in fact we are way below. Just like the institution of "martial law". If anything like another civil war were to break out in these controlled societies for example the US and the UK, the last thing to be enforced is martial law. I won't get into it because it opens another can of worms. All together another mechanism of fear and intimidation to ones own people. Almost as if saying convert to our ways or die. In return our people much like religion, convert to their beliefs for their own safety, selfishness, and ignorance. We are being served Communism in the form of freedom and just accepting it.

I dont know how things are over seas, but here in the states, everybody and thier mother is downloading something, I think they would have to lock up half the country, here in the states we do put up with a lot of shit from law and poloticians, but after so much we start to throw the shit back thier way, they better be carefull.

And then they will use laws like this to silence you..

I would like to see them try.. http://www.computerworld.com/action/arti...ticleId=9063058

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Originally posted by varnull:

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most lens units last about 4-5 years anyway so disc consoles have a 5-8 year life span.

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tell that to most 360 owners who are starting to see laser failures in droves.. They defo have a 12-18 month lifespan.

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I am talking about disc based consoles in general the 360 is unique as in they just wont fix it.

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I think it's brilliant marketing.. make a device that costs a fair amount of money.. but that the biggest investment involved is the media (games) them design it to break after a certain short period so people look at their huge investment in expensive disks which after a year are lucky to hold 20% of their initial purchase value.. and you pretty much guarantee another sale.

It's why they dropped the xbox almost immediately.. to force people to buy a 360.. even if they really didn't want one.

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Originally posted by varnull:

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I think it's brilliant marketing.. make a device that costs a fair amount of money.. but that the biggest investment involved is the media (games) them design it to break after a certain short period so people look at their huge investment in expensive disks which after a year are lucky to hold 20% of their initial purchase value.. and you pretty much guarantee another sale.

It's why they dropped the xbox almost immediately.. to force people to buy a 360.. even if they really didn't want one.

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pretty much it would only cost them 4-6B over the life span of the 360(to 11-12) to make the damn thing work as it should but they would rather not alert the public to the isue and keep plug all the holes it develops...

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Anyway.. that's cynical marketing behaviour by a global giant.. screw the consumer.. we want PROFIT for shareholders above all else.

Now then now then.. here is a good link.. Last years global bad guys awards http://www.privacyinternational.org/arti...7]=x-347-553112

where do you stand now?

http://www.privacyinternational.org/arti...5D=x-347-559597

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what about newsgroups you can't find them on the internet but their are their thou

Newsgroups.. This law will take away the last right to privacy..

currently they have to show a suspicion at least of criminal behaviour before they can intercept and investigate every packet of data in and out of your connection..
This proposal makes it seemingly insignificant for the state to look at every email/message on a bbs/newsgroup listing looked at/file up or downloaded/website visited.. everything.. as a matter of routine.

If this gets through on the lie of preventing piracy (don't make me f****ng laugh) I for one will drop off the open internet and only exist through stolen wifi and anonymous public access points.. they may still spy on me, but they won't have a f****ng clue who I am.

Come the darknet they will regret all the spying.. because we will start to use the e-bomb and other weapons against them..

Organized piracy for profit will be the tip of the iceberg. It will be easier to buy stolen content from us than it will be to go into a shop and get it... and a damn sight cheaper. It's easy to pirate films and sell them.. even easier for music, and horrid expensive software like adobe and M$ products.. they are sitting ducks..

As 1 persons personal information is worth between £50 and £500 to the identity thieves how long do any western governments think they will be able to keep the disenfranchised and angry IT professionals out of their increasingly huge databases.. Steal from us and spy on us and we will steal from you and spy on you. The only thing keeping people reasonably straight at the moment is a sense of conscience and fair play.. If I like a film I at least consider buying it from a bargain bucket 6-12 months after release.. treat me like a criminal before the fact and I may as well be one, but secretively and furtively using stolen connections and hiding in the darknet of anonymity where I will not only steal, but I will publicly steal data on them and publish it where they can't get it taken down..

Now who is for the total declared pay of an MP.. and his "private" subsidies via donation.. and the businesses he works for as a "consultant,,undeclared on the side.. and who he sends emails to, and the content of those emails, and who he calls on his mobile..and what is said, and who calls him, and what they say, and the websites he visits, and every picture he looks at, and the contents of his diary.. and while we are at it.. the contents of his childrens emails, and their pictures and school records and where they go to in an evening, and what they like to eat, listen to, download, play.. want me to go on??

This is the kind of invasion of privacy I am on about.. and they want to make it law while protecting themselves from it.

Orwell had a vision of the future.. A boot stamping on a human face.. This is the time to kick them all out, otherwise lie down and wait for the stomping to begin..... Once they have total power and total knowledge of everything we do and say we will never get the opportunity to speak out again.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.. I'm sure people elected Hitler because he seemed like a great choice for a better future.

Only the future will tell.. Write to your MP and tell them why this is unacceptable.. See if they bother to reply to you.

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My previous ISP sent me an e-mail about two years ago, accusing me of illegal downloading, threatening me with termination of service, which I considered, at the time, was a damn cheek. My thoughts then (as now) is that they had no right to snoop on my traffic and arbitrarily impose a "punishment". Any suspicion of illegality should be handled by the legal system, NOT some jumped-up ISP who seemed to set themselves up as some sort of vigilante. I am no longer with them, at my choice.

big brother is here

I'm not sure its even possible...

Its like asking the post office to open every mail item sent though them, record its contents and then open up every other mail sent back and forth and piecing them together to determine if the mail is about illegal activity. Then you have the matter of encryption as well...

I don't really think its enforceable.

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ktulu14
Damn I forgot, the communists are still alive. I have never ever read 1984 by George Orwell, but i have a jist of what the

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Get your facts straight mate Its called capitalism its got nuffin to do wiv communists and nether had Orwell's 1984
your thinking of his Animal Farm!
By the by Orwell ended up as an informer for MI5!

greeting comrades as it appears that stalin did not die he moved to the u.k. and his now a member of the labour party,this crowd have just about ended our civil liberties, maybe they could stop the television license that is given to the bbc to put out crap shows so that we can afford to buy the movie

This is the sort of web site the UK gov will start banning soon!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7250916.stm

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Whistle-blower site taken offline

The case was brought by lawyers working for a Swiss bank
A controversial website that allows whistle-blowers to anonymously post government and corporate documents has been taken offline in the US.

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but i suppose when the UK gov want to ban protests across the country you have to worry a little! http://www.parliament-square.org.uk/


usa style marshal law and 0 tolerance for freedom of speech, arriving soon to all uk residents. No more freedom of speech and isp's forced to inspect packets and remove any "unwanted" users!

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/01/389354.html

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Anti-SOCPA campaigners who have studied the proposal are concerned that, rather than leading to a repeal of the relevant clauses of the act, the consultation could lead to an extension of the powers, meaning that any demonstration anywhere in the country would be required to seek police authorisation in advance.

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and what will they do to you web hosters, well simply confiscate all servers and never tell you why!

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/11/300886.html

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On October 7, two harddrives were taken out of indymedia servers, named Ahimsa I and Ahimsa II, by forces yet unknown. The servers were managed by the ISP Rackspace in London. 20 indymedia websites, mainly in Europe, where affected. Indymedia Belgrade is still in exile at imc croatia. The other sites are up and running, some slower than usual. Five days after they disappeared, the harddrives were returned, again with no hint as to where they had been.

This doesn't mean the matter is closed. As Mark Thomas said in the New Statesman: This "was the equivalent of the FBI storming the Guardian's offices and demanding that the paper hand over all its computers, including those that hold details of its writers and photographers." Jeremy Dear, General Secretary of the British NUJ, put it similarly: "To take away a server is like taking away a broadcaster's transmitter. It is simply incredible that American security agents can just walk into a London office and remove equipment."

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Originally posted by windsong:

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Well us Americans are not too fond of being 'Britain-ized" with cams everywhere either.

Pot to Kettle: You're Black!

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CCTV was not a british idea. do your research, doooooooood.

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The only way to stop piracy is an entertainment tax In place of the TV license.
There are people copying films off Sky. They record top of the pops off radio. I live in a valley town South Wales and before the internet downloads there was a human network selling CDs with all the top software programs for £10 each.
These CDs could be found all over the UK. they had names such as Ambassador, Cappuccino, Utils and Willywarez. Piracy will go this way again, but will include music and films. Be like AMWAY form a human network. In a democratic country if the majority want to copy then it should count as the peoples decision. Make the Government have a public vote on it. An other thing, why pay TV license to be given aray in quiz shows we all want a share so take it by recording films.

You think you in the US are less likely of this happening in the States? Think again as to US isp's are already looking into it and also you have less data protection laws than the UK.

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Yet that is one of the most challenging aspects of the issue, particularly in the EU, where data-privacy laws are tougher than in the U.S. and many other parts of the world. As the BBC reported today, the ISPs' trade group believes it's illegal to inspect the data traffic passing through the Net.

In the U.S., two of the biggest broadband suppliers have taken opposing positions on the issue. AT&T executives have said they're working with content owners on ways to detect and stop piracy, but they've also said they don't want to inspect each packet or monitor every customer. Instead, AT&T engineers have talked about trying to spot traffic patterns that suggest someone is downloading illegally, then taking a closer look at that person's data streams. A top Verizon executive, on the other hand, has said his company isn't interested in monitoring its network for infringements.

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http://opinion.latimes.com/bitplayer/2008/02/uk-isps-as-pira.html

Proudon wrote over 200 years ago
"all men are free and yet everywhere in chains." yes that sounds like the UK.Terrorism, acts of war etc are endemic to modern society.And yet are essential at maintaining control,that hide behide the usual excuse of national security.All political ideologies require social control as a means of perpetuating their existance and this has been the same since man evolved.It is naive to expect countries such as the UK and USA not to protect their interests. And that is essentially, capitol.I do not believe conspiracies such as the state cteating events in order to introduce repressive legistlation exist or are indeed necessary.The state is just too sophisticated for that.Instead all it requires is the continued ignorance of the its inhabitants and a reliance on ethno centicity.I Have never encounter two states such as the USA and UK that are so incredibibly ethno centric as was the former soviet block.
Freedom is not a concrete absolute concept its totally relative.
In the UK the popular term for the enlightened,the altruistic is "do gooder." Its a term of abuse.In a taxi recently this atavist was getting rather upset at "do gooders" and i said,"i take it then that you prefer do badders."The rest of the journey was made in total silence from all parties.
In the 1930s Hitler used the same tactics to do what none of us will ever forget.But Hitler was elected at the ballot box in election.You see the ballot box, is not a barometer of feedom it just just perpetuates the myth of the existance of freedom.
Please excuse my spelling.My health is not very good.

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“Every right-thinking body knows that self-regulation is much the better option in these areas.”

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This is only the begining of this legislation and we all know that this self regulayion is the best way to go. If it passes it will be the end of free speech and freedom of information whereas the government will start a comunistict method of control for its country. I hope the proposed legislation does not pass.

I think this stinks quite a bit, and I don't know how exactly they are going to enforce it. I mean will it just be for MP3 files, what about all the copied versions of Windows, and every single top program on the market. I honestly don't believe that the industry is suffering that much to the extent it needs to spend a shit load of money to chase up trails of music all over the internet. I'm now whizz kid but surely we could get around this very easily buy using new technology... Use the connection we use now for everything else except music sharing, then when we want to share something like an album with someone, just change to a wireless broad band connection from say "3" or Vodaphone and I think T-Mobile is now doing it... Where there is a will, there is a way.

Ziggy