locknload, welcome back.

You know, the US Government does run some very efficient programs. It runs the IRS, the Military, the Social Security Administration and a National Health Program called Medicare for the entire 'over 65 ' crowd.

I would dare to say that the government's health program is run a lot better and more efficiently than the programs run by private insurers ( Blue Cross, etc..). All National Health Insurance would entail would be to make the same programs available to the remainder of the population...The main issue is NOT incompetence of the government but the inevitable COST factors.

Sibar, the US government runs efficient programs?? What government in the world runs efficient programs?

I don't feel like writing a book on why "The bigger the Government agency/corporation the better the efficiency and productivity. Absolute central control and having a monopoly are not good things.

TC

I have to ask the question, why was this posted as a news item in the first place? Was it because "Pirating" the movie over the internet was encouraged by the producer/director and tacitly approved by the distributor?

Did most of us react simply because it contained "Michael Moore" and "Fahrenheit 9/11"

Let me throw a conspiracy theory out there. Could this be a collaboration between Michael Moore, Lions Gate Films, the MPAA and the RIAA to somehow harvest info for more lawsuits?

TC

Yes, buik, the programs I mentioned are being run quite efficiently. The Medicare Program - Socialized Medicine for people over 65 - IS run much better than any private insurer out there.

Before you discard the possibility that such a thing could actually be true, do you really think that 'Private Enterprise' is the answer to everything? Greed is too strong a human instinct for us to trust a completely unregulated world.

I belong to a traditionally 'greedy' profession that deals with Medicare on a daily basis. In this instance, I do know what I am talking about.

If greed was not the universal problem it is, we could all safely be Republicans.

I'm getting into this kind of late, But I don't understand the statement that Germany was not an imminent threat to the U.S. I believe that right after the attack on Pearl Harbor Germany declared war on the U.S. That sounds like an imminent threat to me. Also, I believe the biggest reason that an Atomic bomb was not used as a demonstration for the Japanese was that two were all there was. If there had been a demo bomb and the next one wasn't enough, an invasion of japan would have occured with much greater loss of life. Just my $.02.

Siber has it right.
I know of several elderly people who benefit from Social
Security. It seems to be working. Thank God.

Now if we could only get proper healthcare before we
reach our golden years. Without it costing an arm and a
leg. I mean, after all, some of us may never reach those
years.

This is a form of Socialized Medicine that many
Americans aren't even aware of. I think they are wary of
acknowledging that it even exists. Maybe because it
sounds a little like Socialism, which rhymes with
Communism, which rhymes with - oh well, you know
what I mean.

Hello siber.
I don't want to rain on your parade, but my mom worked for the social security administration for 35+ years, and would come home day after day pulling her hair out because of the lack of efficiency. I guess that's why she retired 4 years early.
The stories she would tell were scary.
While I belive your participation with parts of the Federal gov't run well, I can't help but wonder if there is a grain of truth in the news media, when they report how wastefull the gov't can be.
I just how they have enough money for me when I retire.
Cheers, v

---

Hey buik, interesting thought!!
Are you suggesting that Moore and the RIAA are in bed together with the idea to harvest info, then, sue people further down the line for profit??
Now that's what I would call a conspiracy theory!
And what would that imply about MM??
Cheers, v

---

Locknload,

"While I belive your participation with parts of the Federal gov't run well, I can't help but wonder if there is a grain of truth in the news media, when they report how wastefull the gov't can be."

I don't think it is wasteful for retired folk to get money that is rightfully theirs. Money they worked for all their lives. Privatising everything is not the answer. It only breeds greedy
CEOs who feel entitled to more than their share of wealth.

Communication is a Language Game. The rules of the game are that each party must agree to understand what the other is saying before any response is made. If not then each party spouts gibberish - meaningless drivel.

Yaucano, thanks for quoting me!??????
Ya know..
to repeat or copy the words of (another), usually with acknowledgment of the source...
And, while I agree with your saying.. "I don't think it is wasteful for retired folk to get money that is rightfully theirs"....which is to regurgitate what you've seen on the news lately..
I believe most of us here don't approve of the CEO's requisitioning all the retirement funds, or the imbalance of the haves and have nots!
I really want to take back those funds they embezzled; those greedy CEO's used to build a golf course in their back yard!
I would have strung them up by their balls!!!
I don't recall ever having said, we should privatize anything.
And just so I can get you up to speed about the "communications game," or, as you put it...
"The rules of the game are that each party must agree to understand what the other is saying before any response is made".....That seems redundant, or, needlessly wordy or repetitive in expression: a student paper filled with redundant phrases.
Let me give you another definition about communication..
The greatest problem in communication is the illusion it has taken place!
Look, I appreciate your input, but if you've read and understood my earlier posts about how gov't funding should be allocated, you'd have understood one of the most paramount things I said....
" I would love to take that money used for war, and educate more of our population."
This, to me, is of most importance!!!!
I really fear, uneducated, ignorant people, might some day be taking care of ..how did you put it..??
"Retired Folks"
There are enough people in power spouting gibberish, and meaningless drivel.
Let us all get together on this..
Vote the s**theads out of office!!
Remember, uneducated garbage in, uneducated garbage out.
These are our elected officials people. Those in office now, are "MY AGE"!!!!!!!!
That should scare the bjesus out of you for the next generation of leaders coming up!!!
If it doesn't, maybe Moore was right about Americans!
Sorry for the rant, but sometimes..I feel it necessary.
Cheers,v

---

Cool - Understood.

Not a redundant student paper but a proven linguistics
maxim.
Your "definition" is but a statement of a problem that
exists in the practice of Communication, and that only in
theory. It is not a clear definition. There is no illusion if
both parties have understood each others points
beforehand. It seems redundant but you'd be surprised
at how quickly some people confound one thing with
another. Many people approach discussions feigning
attentiveness when in fact they are really only waiting to
speak! There must be an unspoken agreement to
understand before any attempt to understand is made.
Do you understand?

And yes Language Games have many problems.

On the other hand - I would have to disagree. All
existence is an illusion. The illusion that Communication
has taken place is indeed its strength! Without that
illusion there would be no Communication at all, only
Chaos and Anarchy. Illusion is what this whole world is
made of.

Agreed on voting some bigheads out.

Yaucano, .....you state..

"Your "definition" is but a statement of a problem that exists in the practice of Communication, and that only in theory. It is not a clear definition.

Really...
then, how could you say....

" how quickly some people confound one thing with
another.

Is that real commuication???

" There must be an unspoken agreement to
understand before any attempt to understand is made.
Do you understand"?

Yeah, I understand!
You're talking about mind reading now!!!

"On the other hand - I would have to disagree. All
existence is an illusion."

Then if existence is an illusion, how the hell do you expect people to communicate. After all, nothing is real! We're all full of s**t!


"The illusion that Communication
has taken place is indeed its strength"!

Its strenght????
Yeah, for those who would embrace that logic, and would want to perpetuate a falsehood!
If it's an """"""illusion"""""", it HAS NOT taken place!!!! It's an illusion!!!
What is so hard to understand??????

"Illusion is what this whole world is
made of. The illusion that Communication
has taken place is indeed its strength!

To me, that's a LIE!!
Cheeers,v

---

Ho Hum.

You two (locknload & Yaucano) are freakin' me out.

forkndave: thank you for giving me a reasonable explanation about 'nuking' Japanese civilians.

Whew,

Are Bill Clinton and Michael Moore posting onto this thread under aliases?

locknload, Are you a Royal or US?

We've been all over the spectrum. Now, let us examine why Michael Moore says it's OK to pirate his movie. But not for profit. Forget the conspiracy theory.

This site is a devoted advocate of the principle of fair use. But not Piracy.

Where is the outrage from the MPAA & RIAA for his remarks. I'm would think that his latest production is covered by a copyright and any legally produced disc has CSS protection. Heaven forbid that Michael Moore is not being truthful with us peons.

TC

jimboco, sorry about freakin' ya out.
I do tend to explore what is being offered here.
I'm glad you have a resonable explanation about "nuking japanese civilians"


buik, I think you ask a valid question about the MPAA/RIAA.
Your observation:
is Michael Moore not being truthful with us peons?

He certainly has attracted enough trained minions to his cause.
I'm sure his work is copytright protected, and if that's the case, maybe your point is valid about harvesting more info for lawsuits.
If that is the case, what do you beleive will be the purpose of this action??
Could it be a left wing conspiracy??
Are MM, the RIAA/MPAA in cahoots??
v

---

Aw heck, if there is a vast right wing conspiracy, then there can also be a vast left wing one. Yin & Yang.

Why would Michael Moore encourage the violation of any law and not be criticized? I have not seen anything from the MPAA condemning what he said (while in another country).

GW Bush never said Iraq was an imminent threat. He said we wanted to prevent Iraq from becoming one.

A recuring theme I see is "why don't we invade every other country"??? Well, we did'nt invade the USSR. Where is the USSR now? We did not invade Libya (and they gave up their stuff after seeing what we would do.

Everyone wants to shout "why haven't we invaded "North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran......"Oh yes, China also". Well, we are a super power, we could turn many parts of the world into reflective surfaces. But we are capitalist. Can't sell a damn thing to someone you just incinerated.

tc

jimboco: I'm not sure if your "Thank you" was sarcasm or not, but I don't think that nuking anyone is reasonable. Sometimes the practicalities of war are very cruel. I have heard that two bombs were all that existed at the time. I guess getting a sufficient quantity of weapons grade uranium or plutonium was pretty difficult then. It hadn't even been a month since the first device was detonated in New Mexico. Since there was no surrender after the first bomb, then I guess it took two. I am only quoting things that I have heard on the History Channel. I was alive back then, but I sure can't remember very much about the war personally. I was four when it ended.

Sorry Guys,
Didn't mean to send anyone off an a deconstructive
ontological debate.

Silly ole me!

But locknloads footnote just set me off.

When I write "illusion' I am proceeding under the
realisation that noone on this Earth really has it all
figured out. But in the case of locknload I guess he does.

At the risk of being on the outs in this "discussion" I
don't think there is any real "reasonable explanation
about 'nuking' Japanese civilians."

Forkndave:
There were more than 2 bombs.
On July 13, 1945, in the stark New Mexico desert of
Alma Gordo, the first ever atom bomb was detonated by
American scientists. Upon viewing the terrifying,
awesome end-result of his team's frenzied research, Dr.
Oppenheimer quoted a line from the sacred Hindu text,
the Bhaggavad Gita: "I am become death." Others present
for the show just laughed and said: "She shore blowed
up real good, din'she?!?"

Right-Wing Cospiracy, Left-Wing Conspiracy, Moore in
cohoots with RIAA?

Ho-Hum, indeed.

Forkndave- just read your post Glad that you don't
believe it reasonable either.

From what I saw on the History Channel and I believe on a few other programs throughout my life there were only two bombs that were usable at the time. The New Mexico blast was not a bomb. It was a device that could not be used as a bomb because of its size. I believe it was largely assembled at the tower site. They weren't absolutely certain if the bomb would even work, since the New Mexico device was a plutonium device and the Hiroshima bomb was a uranium bomb. The second bomb was a plutonium bomb. I have heard that they didn't know what they were going to do if the Japanese didn't surrender after the second bomb because that's all there were. I've heard it would have taken several more months to produce enough enriched uranium or plutonium to create more bombs. I guess it doesn't really matter how many bombs they had. They used two, and if I had been in Harry Truman's shoes, I probably would have done the same thing. Boy, this thread has sure veered off topic, whatever that was.

Yes, we careened. Not over the cliff tho. It has been interesting tho. I think i learned a few things.

It still has not led me to understand why Mikhail Moore advocates "Piracy" of his movie.

TC

I think Moore is putting his money where his mouth is.
It's perfectly consistent with his belief in Free Speech. It's
brilliant to see a filmmamaker who is willing to use his
money for something other than breaking boxoffice
records.

A note on the content of the film:
There is mention of a secret society of Skull and Bones.
Most wealthy politicians and statesmen lawyers and
bankers belong to this order. Whenever they are asked
about it they decline to answer saying, "I can't talk about
it. It's a secret." Their goal is to put as many of their kind
in power as they can.
Skull and Bones is a Yale fraternity.

If that's not scary enough for you how about this - Both
Bush and Kerry are Skull and Bonesmen. What kind of a
choice do we really have here!?

Check it out:
http://www.parascope.com/articles/0997/
skullbones.htm

or google Skull and Bones

A note on the content of the film:
There is mention of a secret society of Skull and Bones.
Most wealthy politicians and statesmen lawyers and
bankers belong to this order. Whenever they are asked
about it they decline to answer saying, "I can't talk about it. It's a secret." Their goal is to put as many of their kind in power as they can. Skull and Bones is a Yale fraternity.


I'm sure I have read or seen something similar regarding the "Free Masons".

TC

I believe that many of the founders of our country were Free Masons. The dollar bill has many Free Mason symbols on it. I don't think it matters too much. Many politicians are Moose and Elk also.

---

Then the "Secret Society" point, is a moot point then?

Glad you brought that up.

TC

True enough - lots of fraternities around.

FreeMasons are something else altogether. Check it out.

The only other fraternity that comes close in power is
Scrolland Key (also from Yale). Skulland Bones, though
has been in power since the Spanish-American War
(1890's).

Some scholars even link them with the JFK assassination
(admittedly everyone can be linked with JFK killing-
haha)and the push to war in Vietnam.

They see themselves as a WASP warrior aristocracy. The
skulland bones motif is akin to the skullandbones image
on the cliched Pirate's flag. It symbolises their modus
operandi - the DoubleCross.

Meaning that they consider it ethical to lie and cheat to
attain power.

They consider those not part of their circle as inferior
and therefore they deserve to be lied to. Their height of
power was reached in the 1950's. Ever since Vietnam,
though, they have been on a prolonged decline. The
middleeast situation is seen as their latest Great War for
a New World Order (another one of their missions).

They believe that the secret to holding power is to
manipulate the masses through the deliberate spread of
misinformation.

The fact that they are no longer a secret is a sign of
their decline.

They made their money from the Chinese Opium Trade.
They were founded (1840's) by scholars with direct ties
to the British East India Company (which intitiated the
Opium Trade). If you want specifics read the link.

Google SkullandBones.

lets just get one thing straight about moore, his a publicity whore. he will say what ever it takes to get him on the air for 30 seconds. the more ppl talk about him the more other ppl get curious and buy his crap. its a hype game, same as with that crap movie the passion of the christ. all these rumors got started about how anti Semitic it was and all the other "good" and "bad rumors" and the movie did well despite the lack of advertising. These A-holes realize the 6o-clock news is a free 30 second commercial for their crap. As for moores ran tings and "news" stories, moore wanted to be a journalist but there was a single flaw...he need 3 collaborating sources for all his stories.....its tuff enough to find 1. when you write books and make movies you need no sources. Say what you want about bush or kerry I don't care. hell I hope they both loose and Mickey mouse wins by write in, at least we know how fake he is. but just remember moore will say what ever gets the media on him at that time. he will spew his lies just to get you to adopt his agenda of the week. He would tell you he has photos of bea aurther screwing a goat with G. bush watching if he tought it would get you o vote for kerry. your talking about a man who claimed his book was only out sold by harry potter.....well I don't know about you but I don't even know anyone who owns his trash book and it certainly wasn't the second best selling book on any list.......although harry potter and his book are both in the FICTION category :) just remeber when some jack ass has a buch of stories that should be on the news if they are real but he seems to be the only one who knows about them........he is probibly michael moore talking out his "moore" hole