Michael Moore to release latest movie on Internet for free

As if the guy doesn't already have the worst reputation in the world for being a sleazeball

what's the catch ?

Originally posted by windsong:

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As if the guy doesn't already have the worst reputation in the world for being a sleazeball

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Maybe in your opinion not mine, he may be clever in his methods but the end result is usually just.

@1bonehead

If you read the article it said that it was entirely funded by himself and his exec's not a major movie company. He just wants more popularity so that more people will listen to his messages.

Originally posted by canuckerz:

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Originally posted by windsong:

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As if the guy doesn't already have the worst reputation in the world for being a sleazeball

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Maybe in your opinion not mine, he may be clever in his methods but the end result is usually just.

@1bonehead

If you read the article it said that it was entirely funded by himself and his exec's not a major movie company. He just wants more popularity so that more people will listen to his messages.

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But his opinions (not facts mind you) are biased and quite slanted

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Originally posted by canuckerz:

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Originally posted by windsong:

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As if the guy doesn't already have the worst reputation in the world for being a sleazeball

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Maybe in your opinion not mine, he may be clever in his methods but the end result is usually just.

@1bonehead

If you read the article it said that it was entirely funded by himself and his exec's not a major movie company. He just wants more popularity so that more people will listen to his messages.

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But his opinions (not facts mind you) are biased and quite slanted

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Could your opinion be slanted as well?

"But his opinions (not facts mind you)" - Do you know that for sure? Honestly, I don't know either way.

I guess my point is, an opinion is that, an opinion. You have a choice to agree or don't agree or don't care. You post on a website to state your opinion, he uses movies.

In watching Michael Moore's latest movie Sicko, he does raise many good facts. But talking to friends in Canada and the UK, the rosy picture of health care presented in his movie (fot the UK and Canada)is unsubstantiated. hence my belief that his movie is biased.

He doesn't have enough money to pay me to see his work.

So, he's using the money he made off of the gullible public with his previous trash to offer his current trash for "free"? And that makes him different from the rest of the internet trash websites, how?

Originally posted by 1bonehead:

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In watching Michael Moore's latest movie Sicko, he does raise many good facts. But talking to friends in Canada and the UK, the rosy picture of health care presented in his movie (fot the UK and Canada)is unsubstantiated. hence my belief that his movie is biased.

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I'm canadain ->canuckerz<- the only thing we really have to pay for is part of our perscription drugs and ambulence rides. The only downside right now (in nova scotia anyway) is that we're loosing more doctors than we're getting. And we have a conservative government atm so that dosent help but it is still free healthcare none the less (as long as our prime minister Stephen Harper the robot dosent get his way).

Universal heath care is better than private healthcare anyday imo.

Originally posted by canuckerz:

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Originally posted by 1bonehead:

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In watching Michael Moore's latest movie Sicko, he does raise many good facts. But talking to friends in Canada and the UK, the rosy picture of health care presented in his movie (fot the UK and Canada)is unsubstantiated. hence my belief that his movie is biased.

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I'm canadain ->canuckerz<- the only thing we really have to pay for is part of our perscription drugs and ambulence rides. The only downside right now (in nova scotia anyway) is that we're loosing more doctors than we're getting. And we have a conservative government atm so that dosent help but it is still free healthcare none the less (as long as our prime minister Stephen Harper the robot dosent get his way).

Universal heath care is better than private healthcare anyday imo.

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Here in the US, if you are on medicare (and over 65) and need a coronary bypass surg, you get it. In the UK (and possibly Canada) you receive nitroglycerine pills for the resulting angina pectoris (chest pain). Only under life threatening conditions do you get the coronary bypass surgery. This is why there is a several year wait for this kind of top notch treatment. care is rationed to save costs. Many Canadians go across the the border to the Mayo clinic in Minnesota to purchase the needed treatment instead of waiting (and no paying for this treatment is not allowed in Canada)This side of the facts M More did not present in his movie Sicko.

Please correct me if I am in error.

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Originally posted by 1bonehead:

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In watching Michael Moore's latest movie Sicko, he does raise many good facts. But talking to friends in Canada and the UK, the rosy picture of health care presented in his movie (fot the UK and Canada)is unsubstantiated. hence my belief that his movie is biased.

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I'm canadain ->canuckerz<- the only thing we really have to pay for is part of our perscription drugs and ambulence rides. The only downside right now (in nova scotia anyway) is that we're loosing more doctors than we're getting. And we have a conservative government atm so that dosent help but it is still free healthcare none the less (as long as our prime minister Stephen Harper the robot dosent get his way).

Universal heath care is better than private healthcare anyday imo.

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Sure, that is why you have first class health facilities. What medical breakthroughs have come out of Canada? How many foreigners travel to Canada for top-notch healthcare?

Sorry, but there is a reason so much comes out of the US and so many come here for treatment. Compare it buying electronics at Goodwill versus Bestbuy.

When you pay for something, you usually get better quality in any facet of life.

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Originally posted by canuckerz:

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Originally posted by windsong:

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As if the guy doesn't already have the worst reputation in the world for being a sleazeball

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Maybe in your opinion not mine, he may be clever in his methods but the end result is usually just.

@1bonehead

If you read the article it said that it was entirely funded by himself and his exec's not a major movie company. He just wants more popularity so that more people will listen to his messages.

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But his opinions (not facts mind you) are biased and quite slanted

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Amen! Mike Moore is my hero. he stands up for everyday people and does his best to open the minds and educate people to whats really going on in this country.

The real sleaze balls are those who continue to look out for their own interest and not think of how we as a people can improve the overall human condition.

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Originally posted by 1bonehead:

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In watching Michael Moore's latest movie Sicko, he does raise many good facts. But talking to friends in Canada and the UK, the rosy picture of health care presented in his movie (fot the UK and Canada)is unsubstantiated. hence my belief that his movie is biased.

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I'm canadain ->canuckerz<- the only thing we really have to pay for is part of our perscription drugs and ambulence rides. The only downside right now (in nova scotia anyway) is that we're loosing more doctors than we're getting. And we have a conservative government atm so that dosent help but it is still free healthcare none the less (as long as our prime minister Stephen Harper the robot dosent get his way).

Universal heath care is better than private healthcare anyday imo.

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Sure, that is why you have first class health facilities. What medical breakthroughs have come out of Canada? How many foreigners travel to Canada for top-notch healthcare?

Sorry, but there is a reason so much comes out of the US and so many come here for treatment. Compare it buying electronics at Goodwill versus Bestbuy.

When you pay for something, you usually get better quality in any facet of life.

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Ah but with insurance you arent nessarily paying to have it done, your paying a company who may or may not pay for your medical treatment.

Most of your radioactive materials used for treating cancer comes from our candu reactor, and we discovered insulin fyi.

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Ah but with insurance you arent nessarily paying to have it done, your paying a company who may or may not pay for your medical treatment.

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Now this is so true

Originally posted by 1bonehead:

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In watching Michael Moore's latest movie Sicko, he does raise many good facts. But talking to friends in Canada and the UK, the rosy picture of health care presented in his movie (fot the UK and Canada)is unsubstantiated. hence my belief that his movie is biased.

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i live in canada and i wouldnt trade our health care system for yours any day.

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but it is still free healthcare none the less

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Everytime I hear this I still laugh out loud!!!

Free? so the doctors don't get paid? The Pharmicutical companies don't make profit? The nurses work gratis?

There is no such thing as free healh care. Someone is paying for it.
The problem is that it's usually ME paying for YOU!

I pay for MY insurance to receive the Medical treatment I have paid for with the money I earned. Not your money. Not some rich guy's money. MINE.

Sure, there's pleanty wrong with our current system including price fixing and overcharging and such... but in no way would I want some kind of universal healh care controlled by the governement where I end up paying for some illegal alien's birth.

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but it is still free healthcare none the less

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Everytime I hear this I still laugh out loud!!!

Free? so the doctors don't get paid? The Pharmicutical companies don't make profit? The nurses work gratis?

There is no such thing as free healh care. Someone is paying for it.
The problem is that it's usually ME paying for YOU!

I pay for MY insurance to receive the Medical treatment I have paid for with the money I earned. Not your money. Not some rich guy's money. MINE.

Sure, there's pleanty wrong with our current system including price fixing and overcharging and such... but in no way would I want some kind of universal healh care controlled by the governement where I end up paying for some illegal alien's birth.

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My concept of free is that when I need the service I get it and don't have to worry about paying for it when I'm on a strecher. And Canadians welcome immigrants, its called compassion for fellow human beings.

Originally posted by aldan:

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Originally posted by 1bonehead:

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In watching Michael Moore's latest movie Sicko, he does raise many good facts. But talking to friends in Canada and the UK, the rosy picture of health care presented in his movie (fot the UK and Canada)is unsubstantiated. hence my belief that his movie is biased.

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i live in canada and i wouldnt trade our health care system for yours any day.

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I live in the US and I too believe the health care system here is broken. But neither yours or ours is the solution. top notch universal care is enormously expensive.The best health care is and always will be expensive. How we pay for it will be the question. Also is universal health a right or a privelege ? Who pays ? what about all the other social services, let alone national defense ? how do we pay for all these things and still have money for rent and groceries ? Are we capitolist/socialist or even communist to afford thest things ? what do we give up as a people for these things ? Is it fair to ask the workers to support the non workers (wealth redistribution) forever? we are not talking about the truly disabled (which we have a God given mandate to care for) , but the lazy .

I do not know the answer, but a one sided opinion is not the answer.

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Originally posted by aldan:

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Originally posted by 1bonehead:

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In watching Michael Moore's latest movie Sicko, he does raise many good facts. But talking to friends in Canada and the UK, the rosy picture of health care presented in his movie (fot the UK and Canada)is unsubstantiated. hence my belief that his movie is biased.

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i live in canada and i wouldnt trade our health care system for yours any day.

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I live in the US and I too believe the health care system here is broken. But neither yours or ours is the solution. top notch universal care is enormously expensive.The best health care is and always will be expensive. How we pay for it will be the question. Also is universal health a right or a privelege ? Who pays ? what about all the other social services, let alone national defense ? how do we pay for all these things and still have money for rent and groceries ? Are we capitolist/socialist or even communist to afford thest things ? what do we give up as a people for these things ? Is it fair to ask the workers to support the non workers (wealth redistribution) forever? we are not talking about the truly disabled (which we have a God given mandate to care for) , but the lazy .

I do not know the answer, but a one sided opinion is not the answer.

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Very true, its always a balance between money and services and we're almost opposites on the scale. I just don't think healthcare should be a buisness.

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I just don't think privatized health care is the right way to ever achieve the balance

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I also agree whole heartedly

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I just don't think healthcare should be a buisness.

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I agree, but if it were left to the government, then the result would not be palatable either

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My concept of free is that when I need the service I get it and don't have to worry about paying for it when I'm on a strecher. And Canadians welcome immigrants, its called compassion for fellow human beings.

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You have not had the problems of the undocumented yet driving up the costs of healthcare yet. When too many take advantage of a free system ment for the truly poor, it becomes a financial problem. We are near the breaking point in Caliornia, Arizona and Texas. Compassion is and always be a mark of humanity. But how do we remain compassionate when we become bankrupt taking care of the greedy and lazy ? Read in the Bible 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 3 verses 6-12, but remember verse 10 (any edition will do, but try NKJV or NIV as the best translations)

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You have not had the problems of the undocumented yet driving up the costs of healthcare yet. When too many take advantage of a free system ment for the truly poor, it becomes a financial problem. We are near the breaking point in Caliornia, Arizona and Texas. Compassion is and always be a mark of humanity. But how do we remain compassionate when we become bankrupt taking care of the greedy and lazy ? Read in the Bible 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 3 verses 6-12, but remember verse 10 (any edition will do, but try NKJV or NIV as the best translations)

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We're having that problem with our welfare program right now, 90% of the people are abusing it and the 10% who need it don't get what they need.

For his crap, free's too expensive.
Same with Morgan Spurlock's junk.

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Originally posted by canuckerz:

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Originally posted by windsong:

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As if the guy doesn't already have the worst reputation in the world for being a sleazeball

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Maybe in your opinion not mine, he may be clever in his methods but the end result is usually just.

@1bonehead

If you read the article it said that it was entirely funded by himself and his exec's not a major movie company. He just wants more popularity so that more people will listen to his messages.

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But his opinions (not facts mind you) are biased and quite slanted

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Could your opinion be slanted as well?

"But his opinions (not facts mind you)" - Do you know that for sure? Honestly, I don't know either way.

I guess my point is, an opinion is that, an opinion. You have a choice to agree or don't agree or don't care. You post on a website to state your opinion, he uses movies.

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Actual everything that he has brought up with film & documents has yet to be proved wrong.There not secret to what has happen to this country(U.S.) under the right wing leadership watch the last eight years.Health Care benefits are down right laughable the Current U.S. deficit is about to explode.....He bring light to these issue they don't want you to see.

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We're having that problem with our welfare program right now, 90% of the people are abusing it and the 10% who need it don't get what they need.

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So true. I don't know how we ever are going to fix this problem.

Originally posted by 1bonehead:

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We're having that problem with our welfare program right now, 90% of the people are abusing it and the 10% who need it don't get what they need.

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So true. I don't know how we ever are going to fix this problem.

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I'm inclined to agree here. I certainly wish there was an honest solution. Harsh reality is simple: there is not a simple solution.

I would pay a million dollars to see him eat a bullet. I can't stand this guy or his biased movies.

Originally posted by pcrazy99:

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I would pay a million dollars to see him eat a bullet. I can't stand this guy or his biased movies.

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I'm not fond of his manipulative manner either, but I would wish no harm on him. He'll get his in the end.

Originally posted by NexGen76:

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Originally posted by canuckerz:

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Originally posted by windsong:

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As if the guy doesn't already have the worst reputation in the world for being a sleazeball

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Maybe in your opinion not mine, he may be clever in his methods but the end result is usually just.

@1bonehead

If you read the article it said that it was entirely funded by himself and his exec's not a major movie company. He just wants more popularity so that more people will listen to his messages.

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But his opinions (not facts mind you) are biased and quite slanted

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Could your opinion be slanted as well?

"But his opinions (not facts mind you)" - Do you know that for sure? Honestly, I don't know either way.

I guess my point is, an opinion is that, an opinion. You have a choice to agree or don't agree or don't care. You post on a website to state your opinion, he uses movies.

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Actual everything that he has brought up with film & documents has yet to be proved wrong.There not secret to what has happen to this country(U.S.) under the right wing leadership watch the last eight years.Health Care benefits are down right laughable the Current U.S. deficit is about to explode.....He bring light to these issue they don't want you to see

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while the above statement is 100% true, it is how he lays out the information that is the problem. he has cleverly edited his films and leads you astray from the entire truth to a conclusion that is nor possible if all the facts are shown. he is not the only one guilty of this, as are others diametrically opposed to him are also.

A full disclosure of all the facts has not been shown by M Moore. But this has never been his intention (nor of the groups opposing him) when both sides are viewed, then a clearer picture is obtained, but even then, the full picture is not visible yet.

we the viewing public are the only losers. Only because we have no way of obtaining the whole truth.

Michael Moore

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This is being done entirely as a gift to my fans," Moore said in the announcement. "The only return any of us are hoping for is the largest turnout of young voters ever at the polls in November."

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He is single handedly trying to influence the November vote to the democratic vision.

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Michael Moore

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This is being done entirely as a gift to my fans," Moore said in the announcement. "The only return any of us are hoping for is the largest turnout of young voters ever at the polls in November."

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He is single handedly trying to influence the November vote to the democratic vision.

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Not really, he dislike Republicans & have some issues with Democrats.But it don't take him to see what has clear happen to this country.As a American i don't need to be influence when you look at our country to see there need to be a change.

Does anyone remember the part in Sicko, where Michael Moore loaded up a boatload of people to cruise to Guantanamo Bay to get medical help. Then after that they went to Cuba in the same boat, but all of a sudden the number of people who were on the boat and the number of people who where in Cuba had changed.

What happened to those other people who were on the boat, b/c that wasn't included in the documentary?

Thanks.

Yes I agree we do need change, but into the correct direction. Change for the sake of change is never a good solution.

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Michael Moore

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This is being done entirely as a gift to my fans," Moore said in the announcement. "The only return any of us are hoping for is the largest turnout of young voters ever at the polls in November."

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He is single handedly trying to influence the November vote to the democratic vision.

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The democratic vision dosent mean the democratic party in this case it just means democracy. He just wants to address the major problem or low voter turnout. I don't think he really supports any political party he just rallies against whatever bad things the government does republican or democrat.

I'd be very surprised if he even got into party politics in the movie because its about getting more people to vote not getting them to vote a certain way, hes not stupid enough to put himself in a nuce by making essentially a 1.5 hour long democrat ad.

Originally posted by slickwill:

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Does anyone remember the part in Sicko, where Michael Moore loaded up a boatload of people to cruise to Guantanamo Bay to get medical help. Then after that they went to Cuba in the same boat, but all of a sudden the number of people who were on the boat and the number of people who where in Cuba had changed.

What happened to those other people who were on the boat, b/c that wasn't included in the documentary?

Thanks.

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I noticed that too, it could be simply that the people on the boat were anti Cuba or they didn't want to get into crap for going to Cuba. But idk for sure.

As Moore states, he wants to get out the young vote. But here in the US, the young vote is primarily democratic party.

this is in essence a defacto statement of which party Michael Moore is supporting.

You don't need to do hard home work to realize that baseball fans will be found in a baseball stadium (why else would they be there)
So the logic goes. Younger voters in the US are primarily democrats. that is a given. The polls bear this out.

So if Moore is trying to get out the young vote >>>> he supports the democratic party and their ticket.

QED

Originally posted by 1bonehead:

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As Moore states, he wants to get out the young vote. But here in the US, the young vote is primarily democratic party.

this is in essence a defacto statement of which party Michael Moore is supporting.

You don't need to do hard home work to realize that baseball fans will be found in a baseball stadium (why else would they be there)
So the logic goes. Younger voters in the US are primarily democrats. that is a given. The polls bear this out.

So if Moore is trying to get out the young vote >>>> he supports the democratic party and their ticket.

QED

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Cause and effect isn't motive.

So you're saying its right for the bulk of the population to not vote in a democracy?

I'm saying to be fair, Moore should have a film where he urges all members to vote in a democracy equally (and not aimed at one segment only ....which is unilaterally sided)

This is akin to breakfast cereal makes making commercials aimed at kids. To be sure, I doubt that the adult and geratric population will have a high showing for these commercials. Conversely. I doubt many 10< year old would be interested in Ensure products or laxative product commercials as well.

The target audience determines the bias

Originally posted by 1bonehead:

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Michael Moore

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This is being done entirely as a gift to my fans," Moore said in the announcement. "The only return any of us are hoping for is the largest turnout of young voters ever at the polls in November."

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He is single handedly trying to influence the November vote to the democratic vision.

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He's a socialist, and our country is not, and never was, designed to be a democracy.
It is a republic.
Democracies fail.
They fail every time.
Just like communism failed every time it was tried.
That's why both China and Vietnam were forced to adapt to capitalism.

It's why someday, the people of China, Vietnam, Cuba and North Korea will be free again.

Unless we start listening to scum like Michael Moore.

well i never supported him but i support this move, let it be know if his films still had the audience they used to he WOULDN'T BE doing this....

Aren't All Movies Releases on the Internet Free anyways??
Har Har Har...
i Crack Myself up.

Aren't All Movies Released on the Internet Free anyways??
Har Har Har...
i Crack Myself up.

Originally posted by mspurloc:

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He's a socialist, and our country is not, and never was, designed to be a democracy.
It is a republic.
Democracies fail.
They fail every time.
Just like communism failed every time it was tried.
That's why both China and Vietnam were forced to adapt to capitalism.

It's why someday, the people of China, Vietnam, Cuba and North Korea will be free again.

Unless we start listening to scum like Michael Moore.

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add Iran to that also, couldn't of said it better, Michael Moore is a POS !

Originally posted by canuckerz:

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My concept of free is that when I need the service I get it and don't have to worry about paying for it when I'm on a stretcher. And Canadians welcome immigrants, its called compassion for fellow human beings.

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so the doctors that go to school for ten plus years should be a social service? and work for free? how about you work 50 to 60 hours a week for free? or give the money you earn to someone else? its not the taxes payer responsible to pay for everyone else that can't! BTW the Canadians health-care system is a total failure, thats why they come here to get top notch treatment!

Originally posted by ThePastor :

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There is no such thing as free healh care. Someone is paying for it.
The problem is that it's usually ME paying for YOU!

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that pretty much sums it up!! ^^^^ I mean how much should the so called rich be taxed? they pay 70% now!!wealth redistribution isn't what the goverment should be about

Oh lord I see ze trolling..... I'll just repeat what I said on the arstech forums...

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Ah words to scare and passify the people...you know I want a Liberal on personal issues and rights and a Conservative on public matters like infrastructure and foreign policy.

Sadly what we have had is either liberals who try and enact PC zero thought mind sets into public matters wasting time and money through ineptitude and conservatives who think their personal beliefs are absolute and should be made into law even if it turns people back into 2nd class or worse citizens and the whole give more money to the rich because they might spend it here spew. (you want to give money to the rich? kill the IRS make a flat tax that right there would do everything that can be done to prop up business and bring it back into the US as well as make everyone richer! not just the top X%...)

So you know what?
fck you, you antiquated Conservative hypocrites and fck you, you witless Liberal sheep!

We all should vote 3rd party just to gain some control back from the bureaucracy the rich and powerful have heaped upon us with the shovel they were given by special interest!

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no overhaul of the tax system

So you would rather have a complicated tax system that un fairly seeks to take 40% or more from the rich/business while making life difficult for the lesser classes though multiple levels of taxation creating more bureaucracy as so it might can give some money back?

By gutting the IRS into you make X amount you pay X amount PERIOD you'd almsot double the tax money made just by gutting the IRS.

Most of us would rather pay 20-30% of what we make and not have to worry about filing taxes as whatever we make the taxes are paid.

This would also remove Federal taxes on just about everything as WE the individual and business pay our fair share of the profit we make.

Also in turn you can make it a national sales tax adding about 30% to everything once you remove the federal tax on it and then thats even less paper work and bureaucracy to fck up due to keeping things simple.

There are no loop holes in a flat tax system you pay what you "earn" the more you earn or make money from the more likely you have to fill out crap but still its better than the BS and chips system we have now.

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For the ZOMG! anti socialists....

Oh! and BTW the US has been a socialistic nation since social security was founded only we have not had hard left/hard right mainstream dickary in politics as long as others have had.

Get over yourselfs if you think we are not a Popular Socialistic Republic, look hard at the current election and tell me its not Popular Republic beauty pageant for a republic filled with witless sheeple who enjoy having their rights taken away by the people they elected because its unpatriotic to question!

GOD DAMN THE US AND PASS THE AMMUNITION!!

Oh sorry I said that as a pretense..its already happened.. the damning I mean... since the 2 parties are broken and all I mean :P

(Do apologize for the harshness of my tone, but it should not be to out of line to emphasize my points...whatever they are LOL )

The forefathers did not seek to sternly control influence (particularity business) as business of the time had solid local interests now adays business has little local interest and as a result government has lil local interest, we have lost oversight in government and by losing it we lose the right to govern ourselves...

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http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/foru...931&f=174096756
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in final Moore is not a total loss there is some truth in between the liens but its more zero thought propaganda than anythign else.

Concerning the story michael moore is just letting his video be downloaded for free, why all the rude comments towards him? Musicians do it and people here drop there applauds and say that is the best thing to do for anyone because we hate the drm, prices, crappy songs etc. His views are shown to people that had not thought about his subjects very much. I dont believe any politician will ever do what they say during the campaigns. I would vote for a 3rd party candidate just because they have good views entering the race but there campaigns dont draw enough supporters(business) needed to finish. A straight tax for everyone would be good, a straight health plan would be good. The people this means the most to say screw it and dont even vote. Just my views/opinions every person has freedom of speech.

sssharp your statement about everyone having freedom of speech is a little distorted. i think that the people in the US may have that freedom but taken outside the US how many really have that freedom?

someone said something about a bullet and 1 million dollars, i don't think it would take that much. but killing someone like that isn't the thing to do.

i've got a ways before i'll need retirement pay but health care is a concern that all should have. giving it away FREE from the government isn't the thing to do. it's NOT free if the government does it. who will pay for it? i'm sure the tax-payer will but at what cost? seems as though the poor are all but exempt, the rich have good accountants and the middle class gets to provide for the poor. seems a little wrong to me
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Originally posted by 1bonehead:

Quote:We're having that problem with our welfare program right now, 90% of the people are abusing it and the 10% who need it don't get what they need.


So true. I don't know how we ever are going to fix this problem.
posted by skrews:
I'm inclined to agree here. I certainly wish there was an honest solution. Harsh reality is simple: there is not a simple solution.

what is the solution? who really knows? but i think NOT spending money on things the general public can and should provide for themselves is a starter. that is get a job and pay for stuff on your own, don't expect the government to keep delivering your check to your hand while you sit on the porch

ps. sorry not doing to well with these quotes. please forgive the newness

Originally posted by McGreg08:

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don't expect the government to keep delivering your check to your hand while you sit on the porch

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its NOT the government that pays it its the tax payer. remember everyone the government has no way of making money its all on the tax payers backs! and for the rich thats at a 70% plus rate!! which is plain BS. soon there will be NO entitlements for anyone NO SS NO Medicaid etc. that that day isn't to far away you can count on it. the days of goverment/taxs payers taking care of people from the cradle to the grave are over!

Quote:

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what is the solution? who really knows? but i think NOT spending money on things the general public can and should provide for themselves is a starter. that is get a job and pay for stuff on your own, don't expect the government to keep delivering your check to your hand while you sit on the porch

---

McGreg08, you sound like an old time conservative American, But spot on !!

What you speak about is laziness and greed. The Liberals have created a state of affairs where laziness and greed are the way of the day. Self responsibility is none existent.The entitlement attitude is all the rage. There is little encouragement to work. With a welfare mentality ,motivation to work is nowhere to be found.The liberals have created a society of human leeches sucking the blood of hard working people. If a hard self sufficient worker calls an able bodied welfare recipient "lazy", the hard worker is called mean spirited and cruel. Political Correctness at it's worst.What ever happened to right and wrong?


In the Bible, New Testament, 2nd Letter to the Thessalonians Ch 3 verse 10, Saint Paul speaking

Quote:

---

" For while we were with you my brothers and sisters, we gave you this charge, those who do not work should not eat either"

---

Translation : Able bodied people, "Don't work, don't eat"

Nuff said

Originally posted by ZoSoIV:

---

Originally posted by McGreg08:

---

don't expect the government to keep delivering your check to your hand while you sit on the porch

---

its NOT the government that pays it its the tax payer. remember everyone the government has no way of making money its all on the tax payers backs! and for the rich thats at a 70% plus rate!! which is plain BS. soon there will be NO entitlements for anyone NO SS NO Medicaid etc. that that day isn't to far away you can count on it. the days of goverment/taxs payers taking care of people from the cradle to the grave are over!

---

lol. i think that i said something like that but didn't include tax rates and all. my step-mom makes over 200K normally each year and the government gets 50%! that's crap. she works hard for her pay and it goes to fund crap that we'll never see because we (well she) works harder than any slave did! I guarantee it.

i know who pays but who delivers? yep the government delivery boy!

1bonehead
thanks, i try to act older than i am.

Although I do NOT agree with Micheal Moore I appload his actions in this endevor.
With his popularity he could make a little cash from this release if he really wanted.
Personally I think he does tell the truth, to a point.
He tells a story and only tells the parts he wants to tell and with holds the parts he doesn't want people to know.
Personally I don't agree with the last 2 presidents. I feel that the issues that are facing us today have been brewing for a long time, not just the last 8 years.

I'm not going to go into the issues (actually I did but deleted it)
Although I don't agree with his tactics, I appould him for letting it be free.

Mikey Moron is giving it away because it was such a flop: 5.6 / 10 at IMDB. Real title is Captain Mike Across America, www.imdb.com/title/tt0850669/

I can't believe there are so many idiots in computer forums who fall for his loony-left propoganda. Even F 9-11 was condemded by responsible journalists everywhere.

Originally posted by gisin:

---

Mikey Moron is giving it away because it was such a flop: 5.6 / 10 at IMDB. Real title is Captain Mike Across America, www.imdb.com/title/tt0850669/

I can't believe there are so many idiots in computer forums who fall for his loony-left propoganda. Even F 9-11 was condemded by responsible journalists everywhere.

---

i think that may sum up the entire situation. well said and i'm off to investigate.

Originally posted by gisin:

---

Mikey Moron is giving it away because it was such a flop: 5.6 / 10 at IMDB. Real title is Captain Mike Across America, www.imdb.com/title/tt0850669/

---

Im not for or against Michael Moore, but you cant call the film a flop with only 200 voters from the Toronto Film Festival as voters.

the Canadians health-care system is a total failure, thats why they come here to get top notch treatment!


As a Canadian I can't stop laughing when I read this stuff.
Thank you Tommy Douglas for our universal health care system. I wouldn't trade it for the world.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by ZoSoIV:

---

Originally posted by McGreg08:

---

don't expect the government to keep delivering your check to your hand while you sit on the porch

---

its NOT the government that pays it its the tax payer. remember everyone the government has no way of making money its all on the tax payers backs! and for the rich thats at a 70% plus rate!! which is plain BS. soon there will be NO entitlements for anyone NO SS NO Medicaid etc. that that day isn't to far away you can count on it. the days of goverment/taxs payers taking care of people from the cradle to the grave are over!

---

lol. i think that i said something like that but didn't include tax rates and all. my step-mom makes over 200K normally each year and the government gets 50%! that's crap. she works hard for her pay and it goes to fund crap that we'll never see because we (well she) works harder than any slave did! I guarantee it.

i know who pays but who delivers? yep the government delivery boy!

1bonehead
thanks, i try to act older than i am.

---

You're the kind of person I'd like to slap across the face. What exactly does your step-mom do to make 200k a year. Yea if I made that kind of money I wouldn't like the government taking much either. But hell there are people that work their ass off daily. Just to make less than %25 of what she makes. I believe the more you make the more you should be taxed. But I believe it should be more than it is now. You can call me communist or socialist. I don't care. No one on this planet deserves any more anything than anyone else. Yes there should be a better distribution of wealth. The amount of people on this planet that work harder than your step-mom is astronomical. Yet the amount of people that make under 30k a year is growing. What I'm trying to say no amount of money makes anyone deserve any better than anyone else. Weather it be schooling or health care or anything else anyone can think of.

Originally posted by defgod:

---

You're the kind of person I'd like to slap across the face. What exactly does your step-mom do to make 200k a year. Yea if I made that kind of money I wouldn't like the government taking much either. But hell there are people that work their ass off daily. Just to make less than %25 of what she makes. I believe the more you make the more you should be taxed. But I believe it should be more than it is now. You can call me communist or socialist. I don't care. No one on this planet deserves any more anything than anyone else. Yes there should be a better distribution of wealth. The amount of people on this planet that work harder than your step-mom is astronomical. Yet the amount of people that make under 30k a year is growing. What I'm trying to say no amount of money makes anyone deserve any better than anyone else. Weather it be schooling or health care or anything else anyone can think of.

---

you sir are what anyone would call an idiot! you have NO idea how much she works. she's in the computer industry and does conversions for municipalities, hospitals, and small government offices. she works 80-100 hours a week and has for more than 2 decades.

as a matter of fact she pays for everything as she owns her own business, so that means business tax, insurance for her and my dad. my dad is a cancer survivor, quad by-pass survivor, renal carcinoma survivor, 2 intestinal surgeries, and a couple of other small surgeries. you can't imagine how much that costs to insure.

if you look at what she brings home she makes less than $25 per hour which is insane to the amount of hours she puts in. she chooses to do it so i guess it's on her.

distribution of wealth? are you serious? so you feel that if you made $1,000,000 that you would be ok with the government taking $900,000 to take care of all the other people who aren't willing to work for their money? you have to be mental!

i bet you are going to vote for Obama aren't you? well if you like Marxism or Communism then he's your man. good luck to you and God be with us that have the sense and the intelligence to believe other wise.

Originally posted by defgod:

---

I believe the more you make the more you should be taxed. But I believe it should be more than it is now. You can call me communist or socialist. I don't care. No one on this planet deserves any more anything than anyone else.

---

so whats the top amount you should pay then buddy? 80% 90% or more? as i said if you add up everything(federal/local taxes/gas taxes/sales tax etc.) there already paying 70% plus, maybe you need to move to Iran or China and live there.McGreg08 and I will pay you're plane ticket!! What a moron!

@defgod, your words


You're the kind of person I'd like to slap across the face. What exactly does your step-mom do to make 200k a year. Yea if I made that kind of money I wouldn't like the government taking much either. But hell there are people that work their ass off daily. Just to make less than %25 of what she makes. I believe the more you make the more you should be taxed. But I believe it should be more than it is now. You can call me communist or socialist. I don't care. No one on this planet deserves any more anything than anyone else. Yes there should be a better distribution of wealth. The amount of people on this planet that work harder than your step-mom is astronomical. Yet the amount of people that make under 30k a year is growing.

Quote:

---

What I'm trying to say no amount of money makes anyone deserve any better than anyone else

---

.


The communists were atheists.

In the bible, New Testament, 2nd Thessalonians Ch 3 verse 10
Saint Paul states :

"For while we were with you , we gave you this charge, those who do not work should not eat either "

Quote:

---

Weather it be schooling or health care or anything else anyone can think of

---

.



defgod your economic model has been tried by Lenin, Stalin, Khruschev,Mao,Castro...... all ending in miserable failure.
Today, although China has a communist government, it's economy is capitalist


Why ? because people in general are lazy and greedy. Why work your butt off and get the same rewards as a slacker ? In the final analysis, we all become slackers in a communist/socialist regime. There is no incentive to work hard.


defgod if you believe so stongly in your economic model, why not you support Zoso, Me and Mcgreg, and we leech off your hard work (you did say you wanted to see better wealth distribution) ? Sounds fair to me based on your economic model.


Anyone second or third my opinion ?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by McGreg08:

---

you sir are what anyone would call an idiot! you have NO idea how much she works. she's in the computer industry and does conversions for municipalities, hospitals, and small government offices. she works 80-100 hours a week and has for more than 2 decades.

as a matter of fact she pays for everything as she owns her own business, so that means business tax, insurance for her and my dad. my dad is a cancer survivor, quad by-pass survivor, renal carcinoma survivor, 2 intestinal surgeries, and a couple of other small surgeries. you can't imagine how much that costs to insure.

if you look at what she brings home she makes less than $25 per hour which is insane to the amount of hours she puts in. she chooses to do it so i guess it's on her.

distribution of wealth? are you serious? so you feel that if you made $1,000,000 that you would be ok with the government taking $900,000 to take care of all the other people who aren't willing to work for their money? you have to be mental!

i bet you are going to vote for Obama aren't you? well if you like Marxism or Communism then he's your man. good luck to you and God be with us that have the sense and the intelligence to believe other wise.

---

Ok I'm not in the mood to really get into an argument with you. I didn't call you any names yet you felt like you had to do that. Ok now I do have some idea how much she works. I see she works alot of hours. I say. So what. There are people that actually work labor intensive jobs (actual physical labor). Close to the same hours she works. Ok it's not the same amount of hours but it is again physical labor. You say she brings home $25 hr. I wish. The most I made was $15 hr before taxes, insurance, and everything else. So I probably brought home around $10 hr or less. If my bring home pay was $25 hr I'd be happy.

I'm sorry about your dad. But I've got to ask what the actual dollar amount is for everything medical he has had done. It's nice to see that we have the technology to do everything that has been done for him. Now whenever it comes to this kind of topic I'm always at a kind of crossroad. Because I'm a type 1 diabetic. Been so for 24yrs now. The amount of money that I have had to spend (and my parents) for those yrs would be hard to calculate. I have to add that both of my brothers have it as well. For about the same amount of yrs. Everyone should have the ability to have the quality of life that your father and myself have been able to have. No matter what job and what their pay is.

Distribution of wealth. Yes! But not like the communist Russia/U.S.S.R. was. No I wouldn't like it if I only received one tenth of what I made. But of course that's why the rich have accountants and loopholes. I don't believe it should go to people that don't work. Unless they can't. If they are able bodied enough to work it should go towards making them capable of having a regulsr job. Weather it would mean help with housing (but would have to get a job to keep that housing) or moving them to another city (hundreds or thousands of miles away) where work is. There alot of people that are capable of working but there is no jobs for them. Or they just need a little bit of training to have a job. I think it's wrong that we went away from the old model of on the job training. So many places want people that already have experience. Which isn't so bad but wanting as many yrs as most want is. we need better forms of training and teaching. And not college at least not the way it is today.

Actually I'm not going to vote! Never have. Never will. Unless we have someone running for office that doesn't care about political correctness, or all of the other bs that we have now. Hell being a lobbyist is an actual job. A job where you try to convince congress men/women and senators to put provisions in bills and laws that are beneficial for the company/industry they represent. I've yet to see anyone run for any office that shares any of my views. weather Obama or McCain wins we do need a change. A very big change. Before this once great country begins to deteriorate any more than it has.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by iluvendo:

---

defgod your economic model has been tried by Lenin, Stalin, Khruschev,Mao,Castro...... all ending in miserable failure.
Today, although China has a communist government, it's economy is capitalist


Why ? because people in general are lazy and greedy. Why work your butt off and get the same rewards as a slacker ? In the final analysis, we all become slackers in a communist/socialist regime. There is no incentive to work hard.


defgod if you believe so stongly in your economic model, why not you support Zoso, Me and Mcgreg, and we leech off your hard work (you did say you wanted to see better wealth distribution) ? Sounds fair to me based on your economic model.


Anyone second or third my opinion ?

---

Your only problem is you are thinking anything similar would be just the same as in the past. Not so! When the United States of America was started we learned from the past and made it better. But with our modern times and the ever growing population and growing government. It just isn't working the way it used to. Our growing government spending is also causing problems. We spend money on things and places that we should never started doing. I actually believe that Washington should be completely cleaned out and start over with everyone from top to bottom. With only a few with no decision making abilities only consulting capabilities.

Originally posted by defgod:

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by iluvendo:

---

defgod your economic model has been tried by Lenin, Stalin, Khruschev,Mao,Castro...... all ending in miserable failure.
Today, although China has a communist government, it's economy is capitalist


Why ? because people in general are lazy and greedy. Why work your butt off and get the same rewards as a slacker ? In the final analysis, we all become slackers in a communist/socialist regime. There is no incentive to work hard.


defgod if you believe so stongly in your economic model, why not you support Zoso, Me and Mcgreg, and we leech off your hard work (you did say you wanted to see better wealth distribution) ? Sounds fair to me based on your economic model.


Anyone second or third my opinion ?

---

Your only problem is you are thinking anything similar would be just the same as in the past. Not so! When the United States of America was started we learned from the past and made it better. But with our modern times and the ever growing population and growing government. It just isn't working the way it used to. Our growing government spending is also causing problems. We spend money on things and places that we should never started doing. I actually believe that Washington should be completely cleaned out and start over with everyone from top to bottom. With only a few with no decision making abilities only consulting capabilities.

---

defgod your argument makes no sense as I read it. So please elaborate with full details of what you really mean by better economic distribtion.

Without better elaboration, I have to vote (second) iluvendo.

Quote:

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So please elaborate with full details of what you really mean by better economic distribution.

---

well apparently he doesn't think 70% plus is enough. i would guess he thinks it should be 80% to 90%. if you were to tell Abraham Lincoln 200 years ago that people would be paying a 70% tax rate in the the year 2008 wonder what his reaction would be lol

Quote:

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Without better elaboration, I have to vote (second) iluvendo.

---

and i will third that!

Crap!!!

Here is why.

You are trying to get people to vote and people to vote for what they feel is right..

Then give us something to vote for....

Because even the voting for the next president has become a big fat joke..

Because if they where going to fix things and repair the system which is currently totally

messed up and do there job i will then vote but i am so tired of all these stupid lies and false truth's to get young dumb people to vote.

You have to consider..

If you don't speak english or for that matter just came into the u.s.a as a legal citizen you don't know about what is going on and several party's take advantage of this.

And it is really getting old.

So you want me to vote give me someone who is not all talk and no show.

Originally posted by defgod:

---

Ok I'm not in the mood to really get into an argument with you. I didn't call you any names yet you felt like you had to do that.

---

did i call you a name or imply that someone else would?

Originally posted by defgod:

---

Ok now I do have some idea how much she works. I see she works alot of hours. I say. So what. There are people that actually work labor intensive jobs (actual physical labor). Close to the same hours she works. Ok it's not the same amount of hours but it is again physical labor. You say she brings home $25 hr. I wish. The most I made was $15 hr before taxes, insurance, and everything else. So I probably brought home around $10 hr or less. If my bring home pay was $25 hr I'd be happy.

---

are you kidding me? it doesn't matter that she works that much? so you're telling me that you'd be happy making 1/4-1/3 of your pay and giving the rest away to lazy non-appreciative people then go ahead. i don't plan on doing that.

i see how digging a ditch and working with computers could be considered equal. both have no training involved and anyone could do it. i know a little about computers and her job is a mystery to me. she writes programs that are over 3000 lines regularly and diagnoses each system numerous times during the year to make sure they are running correctly. yep the guy that stands out on the highway holding the stop/slow sign should make $25+ an hour. BS!

Originally posted by defgod:

---

I'm sorry about your dad. But I've got to ask what the actual dollar amount is for everything medical he has had done. It's nice to see that we have the technology to do everything that has been done for him. Now whenever it comes to this kind of topic I'm always at a kind of crossroad. Because I'm a type 1 diabetic. Been so for 24yrs now. The amount of money that I have had to spend (and my parents) for those yrs would be hard to calculate. I have to add that both of my brothers have it as well. For about the same amount of yrs. Everyone should have the ability to have the quality of life that your father and myself have been able to have. No matter what job and what their pay is.

---

i don't know the total amount. i do know that the quad was somewhere around $50k. that's out of pocket NOT what the insurance paid. she works that hard to help the family! it pays for his insurance which is about $24k a year. cancer survivors aren't cheap. her pay also goes to the grandparents care as well. they have medicare and social security but they need help too. of course she helps me out too!

Originally posted by defgod:

---

I see she works alot of hours. I say. So what.

---

so looking at that quote, it pisses me off that you don't care. what is your tax rate, your profession, and have you sponged off the government your whole life? if not then why the attitude toward someone that is willing to work hard? and if we are going to take from the rich and give to the poor through re-distribution then why should anyone go to college or trade school? a FLAT rate tax would be more appropriate than the algebraic mess they use now!

if you, i, her, anyone paid 10% across the board then it would be a more equitable situation. that includes anyone that gets a paycheck in the US! big business as well. i don't know the math but it would have to be better than what's going on now.

All wrong.

one person = one vote

one person = one tax

this means everyone pays the same TAX not tax rate.

This is true equality

So if the poorest (sorry, I mean economically challenged) can only pay ONE dollar, then we all pay only ONE dollar.

This is equality

Originally posted by iluvendo:

---

All wrong.

one person = one vote

one person = one tax

this means everyone pays the same TAX not tax rate.

This is true equality

So if the poorest (sorry, I mean economically challenged) can only pay ONE dollar, then we all pay only ONE dollar.

This is equality

---

Iluvendo is correct

I could only read about half way down this wacky thread. I figure only Zippy, Lawndog and a few more are not nuts. It is only a movie giveaway! The content can't be much more wacky than this thread.

So what you are saying is those that have and make more money should have more and better things. Even large multi billion dollar corporations should have this. If you look at what you are saying. Those corporations should have the ability to grow infinitely. Or pay the executives that don't do much work at all an overly obscene amount of money. And McGregg08 are you saying that laborers (the people that the backbone of this country was built on Bridges, Roads, Schools, Skycrapers, Office buildings, Hospitals,and every other building your step-mom does her work in) should not be paid as much as her you are full of it. The mentality that the three of you have is the reason this country is falling apart. You would probably vote for McCain. The man that has seven houses but doesn't remember the man that voted with Bush %90 of the time the man that believes middle class is making under $5 million a year. You probably think the people that put all of the phone lines in or the people that build computers/servers or the people that put the power lines in or the people that build/fix roads or the people that build cars should not be paid as much as your step-mom. I mean the people that do the actual labor. Those are the people that make your daily lives easier. Those are the people that give you the ability to call someone across the world on your cell phone. Those are the people that give you the ability to drive across the nation or a few miles. Yet you say they don't deserve as much. The whole lot of you need slapped back into reality.

defgod, no one here is preventing you from making a lot of money from hard work. So what is your problem ?


Besides, you never commented on my idea of equality

one person one vote
one person one tax

True equality. That is what you wanted ?


Also are you saying a doctor ( as MD, surgeon) is to be paid the same as a ditch digger ? Woe to you next time you get sick.

BTW, I'd rather pay more for a MD,surgeon to operate on me ,when I'm sick, than a ditch digger.

Quote:

---

defgod, commentary please

---

To my last response to yours

If you envy others and don't make what you consider to be "enough" money, better yourself.

If you can't better yourself, you are making what you deserve. It's not "their" fault.

If you begrudge others their income, you are a warped failure and that's not their fault, either.

We had class warfare already. It left 23 million people dead.

Enough.
Communism failed.
Get over it.
Deal with it.
Grow up.

Originally posted by defgod:

---

So what you are saying is those that have and make more money should have more and better things.

---

YES! why is that so difficult to accept? if it was all the same for everyone it would be boring and communism to a tee. do you really think that with communism everyone is equal? if you do then you are more naive than i am.

Originally posted by dumglob:

---

....McGregg08 are you saying that laborers (the people that the backbone of this country was built on Bridges, Roads, Schools, Skycrapers, Office buildings, Hospitals,and every other building your step-mom does her work in) should not be paid as much as her you are full of it.

---

i don't think you actually know what some of these people make. welders make in excess of $50k at most places, crane operators make more than that normally, foremen of those companies make even more than that. i think the point you are making is moot! a ditch digger is just that. i've done it, not for a living but i've done it. i had no experience and was able to do it. working on a computer isn't the same as turning it on, which i'm surprised you can do.

Originally posted by diggod:

---

The mentality that the three of you have is the reason this country is falling apart.

---

you sir are wrong! people like yourself are ruining this country. you feel that everyone is equal and you're wrong about that. everyone is equal in the eyes of GOD and judged accordingly. but in the eyes of society there is a class and there always has been and always will be! i'm not talking color either. i'm completely tired of that. people are people and that's the way it is. if i remember correctly we all bleed red.

Originally posted by defgoob:

---

You would probably vote for McCain.

---

yes i would if a could. i hope that others will and the USA gets back to where it should be.

Originally posted by defgod:

---

You probably think the people that put all of the phone lines in or the people that build computers/servers or the people that put the power lines in or the people that build/fix roads or the people that build cars should not be paid as much as your step-mom.

---

DUDE IF YOU BELITTLE HER AGAIN I WILL MAKE YOUR LIFE HELL UNTIL THEY BAN ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by dipsh!t:

---

I mean the people that do the actual labor. Those are the people that make your daily lives easier. Those are the people that give you the ability to call someone across the world on your cell phone. Those are the people that give you the ability to drive across the nation or a few miles. Yet you say they don't deserve as much. The whole lot of you need slapped back into reality.

---

i have many friends that do the LABOR that you speak of and i have many times and got paid very little for it. that's the reason i want to go to college and get an education. it's what sets people apart from each other. if you were to get paid the same as a ditch digger then why go to college to be a doctor? you talk about having to work! it's not the labor you're talking about but it's work none the less. you're talking about 80-120 hours a week until they get their MD license then it's however they want to set up their schedule. the heart surgeon that took care of my dad started at 5am or earlier every day and worked until 7pm or later every day. let's get that ditch digger to switch jobs. no training or anything and i think the MD will do a little bit better. what do you think?

well as a newbie i'm sure i got in trouble for something.

sorry to the rest of the posters on this thread. i hope it works out for you.

MeGreg08

Applauds McGreg !!

No where is defgod replying to my posts in that he cannot disprove my facts or logic.

Sorry defgod, but you make no credible sense and you are the one that needs a serious dose of reality and compassion. And we are not going to punish you by "slapping you into realty" as you often say.

@ McGreg08 and Bro iluvendo
Very well spoken and debated by both of you. McGreg, I am very impressed you have spoken and presented well beyond your years. Bravo.

Now, as for the underpaid backbones of society you quoted such as highway construction workers or bridge builders. Any of these professions who work jobs for most state work are paid prevailing wage. Which for laborers varies from 22.00 to 27.00 an hour or more and equipment operators from 30.00 and up depending on experience. So don't shed too many tears for those individuals. Hell, I have to inspect the work they perform and make less than they do. But that is part of it. Everything has its trade offs, those guys spend 8 to 10 months a year away from their families and I am home every night. Just like McGreg's step mom making what she does, look at the amount of time she has to spend away from her family. Nobody is forcing you to settle for less, if you don't like your situation get off your ass and change it.

Quote:

---

@defgod, your words


You're the kind of person I'd like to slap across the face. What exactly does your step-mom do to make 200k a year. Yea if I made that kind of money I wouldn't like the government taking much either. But hell there are people that work their ass off daily. Just to make less than %25 of what she makes. I believe the more you make the more you should be taxed. But I believe it should be more than it is now. You can call me communist or socialist. I don't care. No one on this planet deserves any more anything than anyone else. Yes there should be a better distribution of wealth. The amount of people on this planet that work harder than your step-mom is astronomical. Yet the amount of people that make under 30k a year is growing.

Quote:

---

What I'm trying to say no amount of money makes anyone deserve any better than anyone else

---

.


The communists were atheists.

In the bible, New Testament, 2nd Thessalonians Ch 3 verse 10
Saint Paul states :

"For while we were with you , we gave you this charge, those who do not work should not eat either "

Quote:

---

Weather it be schooling or health care or anything else anyone can think of

---

.



defgod your economic model has been tried by Lenin, Stalin, Khruschev,Mao,Castro...... all ending in miserable failure.
Today, although China has a communist government, it's economy is capitalist


Why ? because people in general are lazy and greedy. Why work your butt off and get the same rewards as a slacker ? In the final analysis, we all become slackers in a communist/socialist regime. There is no incentive to work hard.


defgod if you believe so stongly in your economic model, why not you support Zoso, Me and Mcgreg, and we leech off your hard work (you did say you wanted to see better wealth distribution) ? Sounds fair to me based on your economic model.


Anyone second or third my opinion ?

---

pardon my newb status, but i'm not entirely sure i understand that relevance of comparing atheism and communism, or the relevance of quoting the bible. i'm not disagreeing with your conclusions, simply saying that a book that's thousands of years old might not be the best source for current economical affairs.

i'm atheist but i'm definitely not a communist. i understand that communism sounds nice in theory, but humans are not robots and it fails when put into practice. it makes people react emotionally when somebody makes a higher salary than they do, but there's not a whole lot of other options out there. certain careers such as professional athletes do in fact make far too much, but overall salaries are determined by how pertinent or difficult a career is, thus giving people the motivation to actually do them.

Stop making horrible conspiracy movies and get on a treadmill already.

Originally posted by Mez:

---

I could only read about half way down this wacky thread. I figure only Zippy, Lawndog and a few more are not nuts. It is only a movie giveaway! The content can't be much more wacky than this thread.

---

LOL, right! So much for staying on topic. Another prime example of mods choosing what and when to ban people. Wasn't this news article about Mr. Moore giving away his documentary for free, via the internet - I could have sworn it was.

Instead you get post after post of people bickering about things that will never change - nothing really related to this news article. If you want change, stand up for yourself and do it. Stop arguing with people over the net, that will never see your views.

This thread has turned into HD DVD vs Blu-ray.

Originally posted by Dragula96:

---

Originally posted by Mez:

---

I could only read about half way down this wacky thread. I figure only Zippy, Lawndog and a few more are not nuts. It is only a movie giveaway! The content can't be much more wacky than this thread.

---

LOL, right! So much for staying on topic. Another prime example of mods choosing what and when to ban people. Wasn't this news article about Mr. Moore giving away his documentary for free, via the internet - I could have sworn it was.

Instead you get post after post of people bickering about things that will never change - nothing really related to this news article. If you want change, stand up for yourself and do it. Stop arguing with people over the net, that will never see your views.

This thread has turned into HD DVD vs Blu-ray.

---

the world broke...someone called zippy sane 0-o

Quote:

---

My concept of free is that when I need the service I get it and don't have to worry about paying for it when I'm on a strecher. And Canadians welcome immigrants, its called compassion for fellow human beings.

---

Good, so can we send you 15 million of our "immigrants"?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Ouch !

oooo.. I love when capitalists stuck in the greed system start talking about equality and fairness..

one person.. one vote
one person.. one tax

so how about..

one person.. one job.. one paycheck.. all the same from the road sweeper to the top exec of a multinational.. because at the end of the day they all do a job and deserve paying for it! Why is one person considered more valuable than another? why should the top 2% take 85% of the money? That disgusts me, and should disgust any other fair minded person.
Without this disgusting handout to those who really have so much already they don't know what to do with it we could all have decent housing, decent education and never be cold or hungry. Capitalism is the economics of power and disgusting wealth for the few and screw everybody else. It may have escaped some peoples notice but the gap between rich and poor is growing, leading to an underclass who share none of the common goals the rich and powerful keep going on about in government or the media. For the majority of young people living in the run down cities long abandoned by the rich the only thing they care about is where the next hit or meal is coming from.. They have no future, they have no opportunity to become rich except through the drug and sleaze trades.

I'm a communist, in the more right wing fascist way. Pay everybody the same.. house clothe and feed everybody.. educate them and give them some sort of future with decent housing and decent welfare. Stop this horrid asset stripping of the poor to hand huge houses and 10 cars to the rich and then just maybe the nightmare future we are heading for will be avoided... otherwise watch and wait because sooner or later the poor and dispossessed will burn it all.

MM wants to give his film away to inspire the dispossessed to vote.. I doubt they will bother because it doesn't matter who you vote for.. big business, the rich, and their lackey politician friends always win!

varnull
Communism dose not work, its like unregulated capitalism it becoems corrupted and begin a authoritarian system it fails hard.

Altho Capitalism is more of an illusion than anythign else. LOL

Only those who have never seen anything but one side of an argument can dismiss all the alternatives.

There is another way, and we as a species will learn it the hard way. Our children will see the beginnings and out great grandchildren may win the future.. We, along with our divisive systems will see it all fall apart hard. It is starting now.. luckily most of us will be dead and buried before it matters.
We have to learn to share and to live each other and with our ecosystem.. it will take time and blood, but we will learn... or we will become extinct.

Varnull,

in it's truest form, communisn is the utopian idea. But humans (majority) are lazy, greedy and morally corrupt. This why communism will not work. Unfortunately wwe cannot legislate morality and the work ethic into people, otherwise communism would work


Capitalism, is also like communism. It too is broken for the same reasons. But at least there is some semblence of motivation to work hard.


Neither system is the solution.

Originally posted by varnull:

---

Only those who have never seen anything but one side of an argument can dismiss all the alternatives.

There is another way, and we as a species will learn it the hard way. Our children will see the beginnings and out great grandchildren may win the future.. We, along with our divisive systems will see it all fall apart hard. It is starting now.. luckily most of us will be dead and buried before it matters.
We have to learn to share and to live each other and with our ecosystem.. it will take time and blood, but we will learn... or we will become extinct.

---

Meh call it whatever you will a properly regulated government still needs oversight, no matter if its after the fall of current government archetypes or a true evolution into something better.

Originally posted by iluvendo:

---

Varnull,

in it's truest form, communisn is the utopian idea. But humans (majority) are lazy, greedy and morally corrupt. This why communism will not work. Unfortunately wwe cannot legislate morality and the work ethic into people, otherwise communism would work


Capitalism, is also like communism. It too is broken for the same reasons. But at least there is some semblence of motivation to work hard.


Neither system is the solution.

---

Unfortunately true, human nature is what ruins ideals and what makes them an impossible goal.

Originally posted by canuckerz:

---

Originally posted by iluvendo:

---

Varnull,

in it's truest form, communisn is the utopian idea. But humans (majority) are lazy, greedy and morally corrupt. This why communism will not work. Unfortunately wwe cannot legislate morality and the work ethic into people, otherwise communism would work


Capitalism, is also like communism. It too is broken for the same reasons. But at least there is some semblence of motivation to work hard.


Neither system is the solution.

---

Unfortunately true, human nature is what ruins ideals and what makes them an impossible goal.

---

canuckerz, my friend, glad we agree

Quote:

---

one person.. one job.. one paycheck.. all the same from the road sweeper to the top exec of a multinational.. because at the end of the day they all do a job and deserve paying for it! why should the top 2% take 85% of the money?

---

So what incintive would there be to be anything more than a hamburger flipper? Who will innovate, invent, create? Why should they if there is nothing to be gained?
Why should the top 2% make all the money? Because they worked for it and make it possible for you to make whatever you make. You think someone would build that business you work for if all he could make was the same as you? Why should he build his business?
If you don't like it then why don't you strive to become one of the 2% instead of being complacent down in the 85%?

Capitolism has it's flaws, but I have no doubt that if the world was comunist we'd be riding bycycles to our mundane jobs working 80 hours a week paying our taxes to support the unwashed masses who sit back and collect that "fairness" check.

Originally posted by ThePastor:

---

Quote:

---

one person.. one job.. one paycheck.. all the same from the road sweeper to the top exec of a multinational.. because at the end of the day they all do a job and deserve paying for it! why should the top 2% take 85% of the money?

---

So what incintive would there be to be anything more than a hamburger flipper? Who will innovate, invent, create? Why should they if there is nothing to be gained?
Why should the top 2% make all the money? Because they worked for it and make it possible for you to make whatever you make. You think someone would build that business you work for if all he could make was the same as you? Why should he build his business?
If you don't like it then why don't you strive to become one of the 2% instead of being complacent down in the 85%?

Capitolism has it's flaws, but I have no doubt that if the world was comunist we'd be riding bycycles to our mundane jobs working 80 hours a week paying our taxes to support the unwashed masses who sit back and collect that "fairness" check.

---

You are funny. Most of them didn't work for it. Of those that did they only worked for a short amount of time just to get to an easier higher paying job. Then used that to get to a higher paying and easier job. Most of them kissed someones ass enough/treated them like they were very special. Or they were handed it from someone because of nepotism.

And iluvendo some of us have other obligations that take us away from computers/the internet. But varnull answered it for me.

Originally posted by varnull:

---

oooo.. I love when capitalists stuck in the greed system start talking about equality and fairness..

one person.. one vote
one person.. one tax

so how about..

one person.. one job.. one paycheck.. all the same from the road sweeper to the top exec of a multinational.. because at the end of the day they all do a job and deserve paying for it! Why is one person considered more valuable than another? why should the top 2% take 85% of the money? That disgusts me, and should disgust any other fair minded person.
Without this disgusting handout to those who really have so much already they don't know what to do with it we could all have decent housing, decent education and never be cold or hungry. Capitalism is the economics of power and disgusting wealth for the few and screw everybody else. It may have escaped some peoples notice but the gap between rich and poor is growing, leading to an underclass who share none of the common goals the rich and powerful keep going on about in government or the media. For the majority of young people living in the run down cities long abandoned by the rich the only thing they care about is where the next hit or meal is coming from.. They have no future, they have no opportunity to become rich except through the drug and sleaze trades.

I'm a communist, in the more right wing fascist way. Pay everybody the same.. house clothe and feed everybody.. educate them and give them some sort of future with decent housing and decent welfare. Stop this horrid asset stripping of the poor to hand huge houses and 10 cars to the rich and then just maybe the nightmare future we are heading for will be avoided... otherwise watch and wait because sooner or later the poor and dispossessed will burn it all.

MM wants to give his film away to inspire the dispossessed to vote.. I doubt they will bother because it doesn't matter who you vote for.. big business, the rich, and their lackey politician friends always win!

---

Thank you varnull for doing a much better job of wording it than I ever could.
Every economic system has it's flaws. Some of capitalisms big flaws are. Those in power stay in power. Those with money keep the money. Those that are in power hand pick the next generations to rule. Those that are hand picked also have the same interests as their predecessors. Hey wait that is the same with just about every government since time began. Well excluding the ones that were overthrown by killing the ruler or ruling families. Again they all have their flaws. But one of the biggest ones that started where the United States is today is credit and the national debt getting larger and larger because of very highly over-paid politicians. With them spending in places and things that aren't needed.

I have read this thread, and it seems to have redirected from some other thread, where ever it may be.

is the basic gist of this argument 2 sided:
1) pro-communist
2) capitalist-communist

or did this

Quote:

---

All wrong.

one person = one vote

one person = one tax

this means everyone pays the same TAX not tax rate.

This is true equality

So if the poorest (sorry, I mean economically challenged) can only pay ONE dollar, then we all pay only ONE dollar.

This is equality

---

refer to a sarcastic/joking comment iluvendo made, because he seemed to say that and start arguing capitalism (which I am for, by the way)

and what is this discussion doing on this article?

its looks like most the post in here have been deleted?? lol

The economic model discussions stared here (although the underlying current of this thread has always been that some of us posters here believe that Michael Moore,through his (semi) documentaries, is really a socialist/communist)


http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/698870/4254884

Quote:

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You are funny. Most of them didn't work for it. Of those that did they only worked for a short amount of time just to get to an easier higher paying job. Then used that to get to a higher paying and easier job. Most of them kissed someones ass enough/treated them like they were very special. Or they were handed it from someone because of nepotism.

---

Sounds like you have a few issues to deal with. "Most of them didn't work for it." Do you actually believe that or do you just hate rich people?

"Of those that did they only worked for a short amount of time just to get to an easier higher paying job"
and an "easier, higher paying job" is not work? Or do you not place value in white collar work? Do you feel that a guy who puts in 80 hours a week, is incapable of having any kind of family life, drinks himself to early death due to stress... ect... ect... ect, that's not "work" in your mind so is "easier" and doesn't "deserve" to be paid more?
You sicken me. You would have everything in life handed to you yet you fail to suggest how those things that are handed to you should be paid for. WHO is going to pay your way if no one is able to make profits? Who are you going to tax if everyone makes crap? Who is going to buy and run those hospitals if everyone makes minimum wage like you do? Someone has to invest and RISK their MONEY in order to build a hospital. Does THAT not deserve to be compensated? Is that not "work" in your mind?

Your ideal view of the economy has been tried time and time again and every time it fails miserably and it is the HARD WORKING CAPITOLISTS who ALWAYS have to bail those countries out.

If you don't like your position in life then get off of your lazy ass and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

But wait, you can't do that... That would take work...

Laugh at that

so let me understand this defgod even though the so called rich/HARD WORKING CAPITALISTS are paying you're way and many others that think like you, you still hate them?

that has to be to most backward/arrogant/twisted attitude I've ever heard! maybe you should be thankful/grateful that the so called rich are around so people like you can have a free ride , ever thought of it that way? lol

The most insulting part of all of this is the fact that some of you believe that I'm a lazy bum and I'm living off the backs of the wealthy. Well you are wrong! I'm a very hard worker. And I've worked my ass off for everything I have. I just happen to believe that the system we have today is so screwed up that I won't be a part of it. And that is why I don't have lots of money to throw around on extravagant things like several houses (that cost in the hundreds of thousands or millions) or several (new) cars. Hell I have enough trouble with one car. Let alone multiple ones. I think varnull said it best.

Originally posted by varnull:

---

one person.. one vote
one person.. one tax

so how about..

one person.. one job.. one paycheck.. all the same from the road sweeper to the top exec of a multinational.. because at the end of the day they all do a job and deserve payed for it! Why is one person considered more valuable than another? why should the top 2% take 85% of the money? That disgusts me, and should disgust any other fair minded person.

---

Here are also a couple of quotes from another forum. Now I don't quite agree with everything that is said but i do agree the message as a whole.

Quote:

---

We must fight these uppercrusted, greedy pigs that have wrought havoc upon the hardworking middle and lowering working class! Vote Obama to save our country! We need a Robin Hood to steal from the rich to defend to poor! Support Public education and end privitization! We are seeing the dark side of Capitalism unfolding. This is want happens when the rich exploit the poor! It is the reason why America is so despised around the world. See the movie "Wall-E" as it is a true reflection of our country. We have become fat, lazy idiots controlled by Conservative and Religious Propaganda! Fight against Conservative Evangelicals pushing for the union of Church and State again! Fight against Bush and his Republican Cronies that have placed our once great nation at a stones throw away from becoming a dictatorship. Watch "StarWars" to see how fradulent wars have lead us to the cusp of the destruction of our cherised Democratic Republic.

Live within your means.Only buy it if you can pay cash (except home but no McMansions!)Buy a sensible car, say a Camry not some chrome bedecked, spinner wheeled SUV.Live moderatly, stop at one beer, don't smoke.Enjoy life, don't cheat on your wife. (Divorce eats up money.)

---

defgod, I went to school, and college (post graduate). No one paid my way except for my self. I worked hard for what I achieved. I put off many things and endured a poor students life to get ahead. So if you say for all we do, we need to be paid the same , so be it, but I need to add the proviso that all the people that did not postpone their lives and started working after high school, need to spend at least 8 years living as a pauper (in order to equalize the years I spent earning my doctorate). Then your model will be more equal.Also being doctors are on call 24 hours at times (and need to make such calls), I suggest, ditch diggers, garbage collectors, electricians,plumbers, and the rest need to do the same, all without extra compensation, except for the pat on the back and thank you. Being called out in the middle of the night, for an emergency, is no fun.


BTW, I drive a 4 cyl Camry

Originally posted by iluvendo:

---

defgod, I went to school, and college (post graduate). No one paid my way except for my self. I worked hard for what I achieved. I put off many things and endured a poor students life to get ahead. So if you say for all we do, we need to be paid the same , so be it, but I need to add the proviso that all the people that did not postpone their lives and started working after high school, need to spend at least 8 years living as a pauper (in order to equalize the years I spent earning my doctorate). Then your model will be more equal.Also being doctors are on call 24 hours at times (and need to make such calls), I suggest, ditch diggers, garbage collectors, electricians,plumbers, and the rest need to do the same, all without extra compensation, except for the pat on the back and thank you. Being called out in the middle of the night, for an emergency, is no fun.


BTW, I drive a 4 cyl Camry

---

What do you mean living like a pauper? Do you mean barely eating, barely having any housing, not having any medical coverage, and not having very many material things. Unfortunately for me and others like me. I didn't have that option. Because I'm a type 1 diabetic. I have to eat regularly. I have to have some kind of medical coverage. I have to have my insulin and testing supplies. I couldn't have lived the way you did. And my family would not have been able to take care of the things I couldn't. So I had to work right out of high school. As having diabetes limits some of the jobs that I can/allowed by law to do. It also creates problems with other kinds of jobs that don't have a schedule or a screwed up schedule. I've also had problems with jobs that don't follow a specific same amount of work every day. Especially the ones where one day their schedule requires me to work my ass off and the next day there is barely anything for me to do. I also couldn't join the military and use the G.I. bill for college. But others that can and have makes me mad. Is it right no it's not. Why not because others are allowed to do things I'm not. It's like saying I don't deserve the same things they do because the law doesn't allow it. The respect ex military get later in life. I can't get. Yes that pisses me off. I deserve no less than anyone else on this planet regardless of job position or pay scale. But those that make more money get things like better housing, better medical coverage, better transportation, and more chances for certain things because of place in society. That is not right. I also have to add that some people don't have the option to "postpone" their lives and go to college.

Your comparison of a doctor to a ditch digger, electrician, and plumber is very inaccurate. My cousin is a lineman for AEP (American Electric Power). He has worked more than 24 hrs at a time. And he can be "on call" 24/7. When the power goes out in Columbus, Ohio he is one of the people that work to restore it. His last "shift" lasted 22 hrs restoring the power from the leftover effects of IKE that went through Ohio. He gets no pat on the back. Actually he continually gets honked and yelled at by drivers that don't like the road blocked to fix the power. That is why in a earlier post I said those that the backbone of this country is built on. The everyday workers that build and restore the things we rely on every day are as important as doctors and others. No one is deserving of anymore than anyone else regardless of the job they do. Because everyone that works in any industry is needed by so many other people. Everyone is also replaceable in any job from the President to a lowly factory worker. there is always someone else there to take their place. No one should get better medical coverage, better housing, and better transportation. As long as they are working.

And I drive a 4x4 s10 blazer because I live out in the country and It's better in the winter for a easier drive to work.

defgod, you sound like a very young man that got shorchanged in life. Don't let the inequities bitter your life.

Remember the quote :

"I complained that I had no shoes, till I met a man who had no feet"

If you want, you still have the opportunity to be a doctor if you want (scholarships and loans are available), you just have to work dang hard to get the diploma. Sure being the "backbone " of America is great, but is there no call greater than healing ?

I just read a quote that 2/3rds of all BILLIONAIRES are self-made.
Read: They did it with hard work.

You know, it's hard enough getting through life as it is I damn sure don't need to have to give even more of my money to others...

Oh, another factoid. 40% of Americans don't even pay Income Tax.
Go figure.

BTW: I make $15 an hour. Hardly billionaire money. And I do it by using the telephone. No labor at all. Am I not a hard worker?
I could do this job while on dialisys... and am hardly a pauper.
I live in one of the mose expensive cities in the US and yet I still seem to get by.

But I'll be damned if you can have any MORE of my money. Frankly, I'm sick of being the one doing the handouts instead of being the one getting the handouts.

Vote Obama if you want to take money from the hard working "rich" folk and give it to the non-working "poor" or "illegal" folk.

yeah, I can see that as an American principle.
Not.

ok I got tired of trying to read all the posts, somebody may have said this allready but........
Simplistic terms
I make $100 I lose $1 to the gov.
Somebody else makes $1000 they lose $10 to the gov.
This is equality and is fair. Correct by the masses.
Now where the "problem" with this senario is and equality within the system lies not with the actual tax itself..........
It's with the tax breaks........
I give $100 to charity guess what I get that back come tax season...HA HA
I own a company that is run out of my home.....guess what I get a morgage break because my house is now a nesicsity for my company.....tax break
I have several trucks all I gotta do is put my company logo on the side of my truck........tax break
Invest into roth IRA's............tax break
I'm in sales, all things needed dinners tools, pens, paper, client outtings....................tax breaks
I need to be up on current events so, cable, internet, and newspapers......tax breaks
I gotta look good so laundry services, and daily grooming supplies...........tax breaks
Now some of you will call me a liar, or won't believe this. Look into it. And I mean really look.
The true difference between the wealthy and the non-wealthy tax numbers is rather simple.
The wealthy actually pay alot of money to find loop holes in the system and use them.
They use ver expensive CPAs to prepare their taxes. The masses use people like H and R Block to prepare them. Or the 1040ez form.
Most CPAs work on a precentage so it is to anybodies advantage to use one, and it's to their advantage to get as much back as possible.
Am I wrong..........maybe.
But do me a favor, this year instead of using HnR Block to prepare your taxes, or use that 1040ez form. Try a CPA. In fact call one today and setup an appointment to discuss next years tax return and how you can save money and get more on your return. You'll be amazed, and glad you did.

Just my thoughts,
LD

*edit starts below

All forms of government have problems. And all polical parties have issues. There is no wrong and there is no right.
People get in an uproar every 4 years and I hear vote for him if you want this. BLA BLA BLA
Don't let this forum or any other form of media dictate who you vote for.
We are very fortunite to be able to vote.
Do your own research and find the canditate you agree with the most.
Or the one you disagree with the least.
It's basically a pick of the lesser evil. Nobody is going to agree with you 100%

PLEASE VOTE FOR: WHOEVER YOU PLEASE

Quote:

---

But do me a favor, this year instead of using HnR Block to prepare your taxes, or use that 1040ez form. Try a CPA. In fact call one today and setup an appointment to discuss next years tax return and how you can save money and get more on your return. You'll be amazed, and glad you did.

---

If i used a CPA I would get back the same amount which is pretty much nothing unless i/he lyed plus i would have to pay him at least 150.00 dollars of more so it wouldn't work out. BTW the so called rich pay about 70% in taxes. basically the goverment can't fix your or my problems or anyones you have to do it yourself don't depend on the goverment for ANYTHING. think of it this way I've been working about 37 years what if i had all the SS money that i payed into the system and invested it myself though the years i would be wayyyy better off. chances are i will never see any of it by the time i retire because the goverment pissed away my money and everyones.

I liked your post, lots of good stuff in there... :D

But this just rang wrong.

Quote:

---

I make $100 I lose $1 to the gov.
Somebody else makes $1000 they lose $10 to the gov.

---

In the US it isn't like this at all.

It's more like:
I make $100 and I lose $1 to the Gov.
somebody else makes $1000 they lose $40 to the gov.

We have a progressive tax system. Those who make more do not pay the same percentage. They pay a higher percentage.

And there is an entire class of people who actually get back MORE than they paid in. This is a form of Welfare that is called a "tax refund".

^^^ far more prophetic that you could know.

Originally posted by ThePastor:

---

I liked your post, lots of good stuff in there... :D

But this just rang wrong.

Quote:

---

I make $100 I lose $1 to the gov.
Somebody else makes $1000 they lose $10 to the gov.

---

In the US it isn't like this at all.

It's more like:
I make $100 and I lose $1 to the Gov.
somebody else makes $1000 they lose $40 to the gov.

We have a progressive tax system. Those who make more do not pay the same percentage. They pay a higher percentage.

And there is an entire class of people who actually get back MORE than they paid in. This is a form of Welfare that is called a "tax refund".

---

The problem with
I make $100 and I lose $1 to the Gov.
somebody else makes $1000 they lose $40 to the gov.
When you subtract $1 from $100 you get $99.
When you subtract $40 from $1000 you get $960.
There is an $861 difference. That to me is too large of a difference. Why? You might ask. Where does that extra money go? Extravagance! That's where. Like paying for a very large house or a high rent apartment in an upscale neighborhood. Also paying for a very nice/new car. Now I have no problem with people making more money. I never have. But the problem that I do have is the large difference in the amount of money made. Also the fact that that amount is getting larger. If things keep going the same there will be no middle class.

There are a few people on here that think I might be lazy. But that Is wrong. No I haven't gone to college. I'm also in my thirties. I would love to go to college but the way to that is so much bs it isn't even funny. There are those people that have done it that way. I applaud those people for doing things exactly the way they're told. I highly doubt I could even get a student loan in this economy right now. I don't have a problem with college graduates. But I do have a problem with the disparities in salaries of college graduates and those that don't have a degree is wrong. We have a very large problem with our education system. There are so many other countries on this planet with better education systems.

I also believe that someone makes $1000 they should lose $100 or more to the gov. Because those that make more money have a higher probability of having a CPA find more tax brakes. I don't believe they deserve any more or better than anyone else. I also can't stand the fact that some people get back more than they put in. The last time I got back what I put in was when I was a teenager working a summer job. Since then I struggle to get back half of what I put in.

Originally posted by defgod:

---

Quote:

---

I don't have a problem with college graduates. But I do have a problem with the disparities in salaries of college graduates and those that don't have a degree is wrong

---

So you do not believe in being rewarded for hard work ?

So slackers are equally rewarded just as much as a hard worker ?


I think you have your values standing on its head

Originally posted by 1bonehead:

---

Originally posted by defgod:

---

Quote:

---

I don't have a problem with college graduates. But I do have a problem with the disparities in salaries of college graduates and those that don't have a degree is wrong

---

So you do not believe in being rewarded for hard work ?

So slackers are equally rewarded just as much as a hard worker ?


I think you have your values standing on its head

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The problem with your statement is. It seems as if you think I believe that slackers should get the same as hard workers. That is wrong. It also looks like you believe that those that go to college are the only hard workers. Why would you think that? There are so many so called "uneducated" people that work very hard and long hours. Just because someone hasn't went to college doesn't mean that person doesn't work very hard at what they do. Just because someone is "educated" doesn't mean they deserve more than someone that is not. The problem is not with the people it's with our economic system as a whole. Look at the crisis we have now. It lies with those at the top of those companies making extraordinary amounts of money. Making very bad decisions and no accountability. Yet we as taxpayers are expected to for lack of better words "take the rap" for these fools.

Quote:

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Just because someone is "educated" doesn't mean they deserve more than someone that is not.

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Are you saying an educated person is not worth more tahan an uneducated person ?

Originally posted by 1bonehead:

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Quote:

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Just because someone is "educated" doesn't mean they deserve more than someone that is not.

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Are you saying an educated person is not worth more than an uneducated person ?

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To a point yes. Just because someone has a degree. Doesn't mean that they are any more intelligent or have a higher IQ for that matter. But there are people working up to 80 hrs a week from the time they left high school till retirement. Does that make anyone any more or less deserving than anyone else. The people that work a job while others are in college don't deserve any less. Even though someone is working their ass off in college. Someone else is working their ass off 40 or more hours a week. Some 7 days a week at crazy hours.

Originally posted by defgod:

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Originally posted by 1bonehead:

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Quote:

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Just because someone is "educated" doesn't mean they deserve more than someone that is not.

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Are you saying an educated person is not worth more than an uneducated person ?

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To a point yes. Just because someone has a degree. Doesn't mean that they are any more intelligent or have a higher IQ for that matter. But there are people working up to 80 hrs a week from the time they left high school till retirement. Does that make anyone any more or less deserving than anyone else. The people that work a job while others are in college don't deserve any less. Even though someone is working their ass off in college. Someone else is working their ass off 40 or more hours a week. Some 7 days a week at crazy hours.

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God help you.

Originally posted by 1bonehead:

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Originally posted by defgod:

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Originally posted by 1bonehead:

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Quote:

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Just because someone is "educated" doesn't mean they deserve more than someone that is not.

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Are you saying an educated person is not worth more than an uneducated person ?

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To a point yes. Just because someone has a degree. Doesn't mean that they are any more intelligent or have a higher IQ for that matter. But there are people working up to 80 hrs a week from the time they left high school till retirement. Does that make anyone any more or less deserving than anyone else. The people that work a job while others are in college don't deserve any less. Even though someone is working their ass off in college. Someone else is working their ass off 40 or more hours a week. Some 7 days a week at crazy hours.

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God help you.

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What do I need help for?

Originally posted by defgod:

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Originally posted by 1bonehead:

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Originally posted by defgod:

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Originally posted by 1bonehead:

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Quote:

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Just because someone is "educated" doesn't mean they deserve more than someone that is not.

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Are you saying an educated person is not worth more than an uneducated person ?

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To a point yes. Just because someone has a degree. Doesn't mean that they are any more intelligent or have a higher IQ for that matter. But there are people working up to 80 hrs a week from the time they left high school till retirement. Does that make anyone any more or less deserving than anyone else. The people that work a job while others are in college don't deserve any less. Even though someone is working their ass off in college. Someone else is working their ass off 40 or more hours a week. Some 7 days a week at crazy hours.

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God help you.

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What do I need help for?

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Only the unwise (and proud) refuse the help of the Almighty

Quote:

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To a point yes. Just because someone has a degree. Doesn't mean that they are any more intelligent or have a higher IQ for that matter. But there are people working up to 80 hrs a week from the time they left high school till retirement. Does that make anyone any more or less deserving than anyone else. The people that work a job while others are in college don't deserve any less. Even though someone is working their ass off in college. Someone else is working their ass off 40 or more hours a week. Some 7 days a week at crazy hours.

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Boy, I would just LOVE to live in your world filled with ditch diggers and Drive-Through Cashiers who can't even count out correct change without a computer with pictures on the keyboard.

"Does that make anyone any more or less deserving than anyone else."
Deserving? What do you know about "deserving"? Since when does life give a crap about what you or I "deserve"?
You know, I play by all the rules, never drive wrecklessly on the road and am always considerate of others. I deserve to have my own freaking lane on the freeway!
Deserving? LOL

In this world you only "deserve" what you can WORK HARD FOR AND TAKE FOR YOUR OWN!!!
Otherwise, you don't deserve minimum wage.

Next, you'll be saying that everyone "deserves" to "own" a house and maybe Fannie Mae should start giving home loans to any and everyone reguardless of their ability to pay.

Yeah, that will work out well for you! LOL

Welcome to reality.

defgod, how about the soldiers that died in Iraq for your freedom to type this. did they deserve that! get over yourself it isn't about what you deserve or don't deserve, life doesn't work that way and if you think it does you are in for a big disappointment

Originally posted by ZoSoIV:

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defgod, how about the soldiers that died in Iraq for your freedom to type this. did they deserve that! get over yourself it isn't about what you deserve or don't deserve, life doesn't work that way and if you think it does you are in for a big disappointment

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It's been a while but I thought I might revisit this. Just for some fun. No one died in Iraq for my freedom! Actually the last time anyone died for any ones freedom in this country was WW2. If anyone believes any different they need to be checked in to a psychiatric ward of a hospital! If anyone believes that anyone other than the heads of the largest corporations are the cause of the economic problems need serious help! These idiots make huge mistakes that affect all of our lives and they aren't being really held accountable. There are a lot more things I'd like to say. But I would just be wasting my breath on people that believe the way things are in the world today are just fine.

defgod, are you saying that foreign policy in Iraq does directly or indirectly affect our freedom ?

lol a dumb-ass respones 2 plus months later, are you drinking? lol

I think he's trying to say that people like Marin Luther King and Malcolm X were just killed.. Not that there was any possibility that with what they were saying and the fear that caused in certain sections of society that they didn't die in vain but actually gained freedoms and rights for large numbers of the population who until then had no voice.

defgod.. are you old enough to vote?.. If you are, how did you vote on Prop8? or if your state didn't vote on it what are your feelings about the issue of constitutionally guaranteed rights for minorities?..

I would be interested to know... It would give me some perspective as to where you stand with relation to the other points you seem to be trying to make.

(ain't that a stinker of a question?)

Originally posted by varnull:

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I think he's trying to say that people like Marin Luther King and Malcolm X were just killed.. Not that there was any possibility that with what they were saying and the fear that caused in certain sections of society that they didn't die in vain but actually gained freedoms and rights for large numbers of the population who until then had no voice.

defgod.. are you old enough to vote?.. If you are, how did you vote on Prop8? or if your state didn't vote on it what are your feelings about the issue of constitutionally guaranteed rights for minorities?..

I would be interested to know... It would give me some perspective as to where you stand with relation to the other points you seem to be trying to make.

(ain't that a stinker of a question?)

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Wow I didn't think of Dr. King and Malcolm X. They were murdered by (for lack of a better term) crazies. Yes their life's work was for certain freedoms but not in the sense I was speaking of. I was meaning the military/soldier sense. I'm 31 and have never voted. Because I've never seen anything I either care about or will directly affect anyone I know. And never seen a candidate for anything that shared any of my views. But Barack Obama has been the closest. Proposition 8 I don't live in that state. I do believe anyone should be allowed to marry anyone man/woman they choose.
@ZoSoIV I wish I was drunk. Just bored. I found this page as a bookmark when I decided to clean the bookmarks out. I also see that you feel obliged to show your system specs on here. It must be nice to have the money to buy the newer hardware. I am still using 478 P4's and Athlon 64's hell I even have a 462 AthlonXP. Granted I could sell some of what I have now and buy a new system. But I'd rather have three systems just in case.
@lamchops1 What goes on in Iraq (unless there is a all out world war started) has no bearing whatsoever freedoms I have. Yes some of it might be some of the reason for the high gas prices we had back a few months ago. But I believe that is more of an excuse than anything else.

Originally posted by defgod:

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Originally posted by varnull:

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I think he's trying to say that people like Marin Luther King and Malcolm X were just killed.. Not that there was any possibility that with what they were saying and the fear that caused in certain sections of society that they didn't die in vain but actually gained freedoms and rights for large numbers of the population who until then had no voice.

defgod.. are you old enough to vote?.. If you are, how did you vote on Prop8? or if your state didn't vote on it what are your feelings about the issue of constitutionally guaranteed rights for minorities?..

I would be interested to know... It would give me some perspective as to where you stand with relation to the other points you seem to be trying to make.

(ain't that a stinker of a question?)

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Wow I didn't think of Dr. King and Malcolm X. They were murdered by (for lack of a better term) crazies. Yes their life's work was for certain freedoms but not in the sense I was speaking of. I was meaning the military/soldier sense. I'm 31 and have never voted. Because I've never seen anything I either care about or will directly affect anyone I know. And never seen a candidate for anything that shared any of my views. But Barack Obama has been the closest. Proposition 8 I don't live in that state. I do believe anyone should be allowed to marry anyone man/woman they choose.
@ZoSoIV I wish I was drunk. Just bored. I found this page as a bookmark when I decided to clean the bookmarks out. I also see that you feel obliged to show your system specs on here. It must be nice to have the money to buy the newer hardware. I am still using 478 P4's and Athlon 64's hell I even have a 462 AthlonXP. Granted I could sell some of what I have now and buy a new system. But I'd rather have three systems just in case.
@lamchops1 What goes on in Iraq (unless there is a all out world war started) has no bearing whatsoever freedoms I have. Yes some of it might be some of the reason for the high gas prices we had back a few months ago. But I believe that is more of an excuse than anything else.

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Have you ever heard of the butterfly effect ?

This is a report on a study I found today. It rightfully explains why the well-to-do should be taxed more. It also explains some of the reason for the ever enlarging gap between the middle class and the "rich".

A new study based on unpublished Internal Revenue Service data shows the rich are different when it comes to paying taxes: They hide more of their income.

The previously unreported study estimates that taxpayers whose true income was between $500,000 and $1 million a year understated their adjusted gross incomes by 21% overall in 2001, compared to an 8% underreporting rate for those earning $50,000 to $100,000 and even lower rates for those earning less. (The "net misreporting rate" as the IRS calls it, includes both underreported income and inflated deductions.)

In all, because of their higher noncompliance rates, those with true incomes of $200,000 or more received 25% of all income, but accounted for 40% of net underreported income and 42% of underreported tax in 2001, the new analysis finds.

The study was written by Joel Slemrod, an economics professor and director of the Office of Tax Policy Research at the University of Michigan's business school and IRS economist Andrew Johns. It has not been officially endorsed or even released by the IRS and seems sure to add fuel to the election season debate over whether those earning $250,000 or more should pay higher tax rates, as Sen. Barack Obama, the Democratic presidential nominee, has proposed.

The Slemrod/Johns analysis uses unpublished data from special research audits the IRS conducted on a sample of 45,000 individual returns filed for 2001. It was the IRS' first such research effort since 1988, and it led the agency to estimate the 2001 gross "tax gap" at $345 billion.

The main reason for the income-related cheating disparity: Higher income folks receive more of their income from sources that are easier to hide, including self-employment earnings; income from rents, partnerships and S corporations; and capital gains.

"The distribution of noncompliance lines up pretty closely with who gets income that's hard (for the IRS) to keep track of,'' Slemrod says. Still, he notes, the distribution of income by source doesn't explain all the increased noncompliance at higher income levels.

In its 2001 tax gap study, the IRS estimated that individuals underreported business income by 43% overall. Sole proprietors, who report self-employment income on schedule C of their tax returns, underreported their income a stunning 57%.

By contrast, the IRS found, 99% of all wages were reported by individual tax filers. The obvious explanation is that workers have no choice--their employers report their earnings to the IRS and withhold taxes on them.

Meanwhile, net capital gains for 2001 were underreported by 12%, the IRS estimated. The IRS receives reports from brokers of taxpayers' gross sales of stocks and bonds, but not of their initial costs or profits--therefore it has no way to easily check their reported capital gains. (Last month, as part of the $700 billion bailout bill, Congress mandated that brokers report the basis of any stocks bought in 2011 or later.)

The new study seems to show that the really rich are more tax compliant than the merely well-off, although not nearly as compliant as middle- and working-class wage slaves. Those earning $2 million plus had an 11% underreporting rate. But Slemrod told Forbes that he was "less comfortable" with that finding, noting that the very rich may have made use of techniques that IRS research audits didn't detect.

"I just don't know whether these audits were able to track down really sophisticated noncompliance or Swiss bank accounts. They may underestimate it (noncompliance) at the top,'' he says.

Indeed, in the past several years, the IRS has collected billions in back taxes from wealthy taxpayers who used dicey tax shelters to manufacture huge phony losses in the late 1990s, 2000 and 2001. But the IRS didn't get a handle on the nature or extent of these shelters until years later and relied on tax shelter promoters' customer lists and special self-disclosure programs, not audits, to find most of the taxpayers involved.

Currently, the government is suing UBS for the names of 18,000 wealthy Americans it believes may have had unreported Swiss bank accounts.