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[quote]I've been compiling a list of BluRay releases with "higher audio standards" (a partial list

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error5: Here's the avsforum audio (and video) specifications thread for BluRay releases:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=760714

Looks like majority of releases so far have the "higher audio standards" namely uncompressed PCM, and compressed formats such as DTS-HD MA , DTS HD High Resolution, or Dolby True HD. Maybe you can complete your list, post in in the BluRay section and have it stickied.

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my toshiba a2 does not have the lossless unfortunately i did not know about that feature on the high end unit or i would have got that one but where would i plug it any way?

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If you need 2 5.1 analog inputs and your receiver has only one set of 5.1's you can use this as a simple switcher:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BVI...1164316-1807843

Connect the 6 cables to the 3 component inputs plus the 3 A/V inputs (the red/white/yellow). My friend has one of these in his system for a Toshiba HD-XA1 and a Panasonic BluRay player and it works like a charm.

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What puzzles me is why Toshiba left out the 5.1 analog outputs on the A2 and the A20. You have to get the XA2 for the 5.1 analog outs.

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I wondered about that myself. The slimmer profile would still accomodate the 6 extra RCA ports.[/quote]

now that i have experienced lossless audio i am now frowning at my a2. thanks for the switch info it is better than six y connectors:)
just a note the sony 300 seems to do a better job with sd-dvd upscalling.

For anyone who doesn't know,the latest compressed formats such
as 'Dolby TrueHD and' 'DTS-HD Master Audio' are actualy lossless
when decompressed and are the most efficient way of storing lossless
surround sound audio.Uncompressed PCM hogs a lot of the disk and
is less superior bacause it relies on analogue connections that
lose detail in comparison.It's like VGA vs HDMI,no matter how good your cables,bit for bit,a full digital carrier is the purest way.
Active speakers that can decode a digital signal from the amp is the
ultimate way, but beyond most peoples pockets.

Originally posted by ChromeMud:

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Uncompressed PCM hogs a lot of the disk and
is less superior bacause it relies on analogue connections that
lose detail in comparison.

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This needs clarification.

Once you decompress or decode the Dolby True HD or DTS HD-MA soundtrack you get the exact same signal as Uncompressed PCM. There is no difference in the final product.

Here's what happens in your player for Dolby True HD:

True HD soundtrack -> True HD decoder -> uncompressed PCM -> Digital to analog conversion -> Analog 5.1 output
OR
True HD soundtrack -> True HD decoder -> uncompressed PCM -> HDMI output

Here's what happens when you have uncompressed PCM:

Uncompressed PCM soundtrack -> Digital to analog conversion -> analog 5.1 output
OR
Uncompressed PCM soundtrack -> HDMI output

Uncompressed PCM does not rely on analog connections alone and can be sent to the receiver using HDMI in LPCM setting as long as your receiver supports this. I use HDMI to send uncompressed PCM to my Marantz. The receiver then does the digital to analog conversion and sends that signal to your speakers after amplification.

Now if you have a receiver that can do Dolby True HD or DTS HD-MA decoding and if you have HDMI version 1.3 on both sides you can chose to send this signal bitstream using this connection.

Uncompresed PCM does need a lot of disc space but this is where the large disc capacities come in. Here's a comparison of discs spaces used for PCM and Dolby TrueHD in a 2 hour movie:

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LPCM
2 hours @ 5.1 16/48 LPCM = 4.14 Gbytes @ 4.6 Mbps (used on most Blu-ray titles with LPCM)
2 hours @ 7.1 16/48 LPCM = 5.52 Gbytes @ 6.13 Mbps
2 hours @ 5.1 24/48 LPCM = 6.21 Gbytes @ 6.9 Mbps (used on Disney Blu-ray titles with BD50 + AVC)

Dolby TrueHD (comparable to DTS-HD MA)
2 hours @ 5.1 16/48 TrueHD = 1.26 Gbytes @ 1.4 Mbps ABR (used on Warner HD-DVD releases)
2 hours @ 5.1 24/48 TrueHD = 3.06 Gbytes @ 3.4 Mbps ABR (used on recent HD-DVD releases from Universal)
2 hours @ 7.1 24/48 TrueHD = 4.23 Gbytes @ 4.7 Mbps ABR

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ABR = Average bitrate
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10271234&&
Post #7

What's important to remember when dealing with lossless compression is:

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Once unpacked or "unzipped" by a player or future HDMI 1.3 receiver, the resulting output is a 24/48 LPCM track that is bit-for-bit identical to the original studio master.

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Your right error5,pcm can be sent digitaly to the amp.
What I do know is compression like FLAC or other compressed lossless
formats can reduced the bandwidth by half which isn't significant
but better than nothing.

When you're letting the player do the decoding you're still sending uncompressed PCM thru HDMI even if your original soundtrack is compressed so bandwidth is not even an issue. The only time you send the undecoded compressed signal is when you have HDMI 1.3 and you have a receiver that can do the decoding.

this is what i have noticed..

when using my optical input i have to turn up my center channel +5 to clarify the dialogue. with the lossless analog i set everything to zero and dialogue is crisp and clean. also music hits that sonic performance once again and the mids and highs really light up.

one note here that i don't think any one has mentioned:
since the analog lossless is a direct input and does not channel through the dsp then the distortion ratio drops dramatically. i cannot find the data in my recievers specs or maybe that is just for lower end recievers i do not know. however i do remember reading somewhere that once you use the digital enhancing features of a reciever the thd goes up. all i can find on my particular reciever is the thd is .02% at 100wrms it does not mention a change when the dsp engian is engaged. error5 do you know any thing about this?

cappyx: I don't use any DSP so I'm not sure about the diminished THD if you turn off DSP but I could imagine that there's some truth to this.

For me nothing beats basic calibration - or have it done professionally if you can afford it.

What greatly improved my setup is something that dblbogey7 mentioned in one of his posts - strategically placed tube traps from Acoustic Science Corp:

http://www.acousticsciences.com/tubetrap.htm

Because of my room acoustics I had excessively boomy bass. I placed a pair of 16-inch Full Rounds in the corners behind the speakers and I got much improved clarity and sonic impact from my woofers and subwoofer.

If your room has too much sidewall reflections and echo you can place them along the sidewall between the speakers and your seating area. You can also increase soundstage depth with a single tube trap placed in the middle of the wall behind the speakers. These are very effective and versatile at solving a variety of acoustical problems.

Originally posted by error5:

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cappyx: I don't use any DSP so I'm not sure about the diminished THD if you turn off DSP but I could imagine that there's some truth to this.

For me nothing beats basic calibration - or have it done professionally if you can afford it.

What greatly improved my setup is something that dblbogey7 mentioned in one of his posts - strategically placed tube traps from Acoustic Science Corp:

http://www.acousticsciences.com/tubetrap.htm

Because of my room acoustics I had excessively boomy bass. I placed a pair of 16-inch Full Rounds in the corners behind the speakers and I got much improved clarity and sonic impact from my woofers and subwoofer.

If your room has too much sidewall reflections and echo you can place them along the sidewall between the speakers and your seating area. You can also increase soundstage depth with a single tube trap placed in the middle of the wall behind the speakers. These are very effective and versatile at solving a variety of acoustical problems.

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Thanks for the input. I have always been really good at tweeking my systems without the need of calibration dvds. the boomy bass i usually take care of by adjusting the crossover frequency, level and sub placement. what i did notice is that the surround was almost perfect when i hooked up the lossless connection. all of the echo and bass boom were minimized to a very tight level. i kind of achieve a similar effect but not as good with the HD-DVD dolby true or DTS hd but it is not as good as lossless. without channeling through the dsp adjusting is a bit easier. my hardest thing right now is sub placement as i am very limited where i can put it.

Hmm,so Dolby TrueHD is not lossless because it has to go through a
DSP...interesting,whereas PCM via analogue is more pure,no doubt
everybody is happy with this pseudo scientific explanation.
So leveling a speakers output and adjusting it's delay relative
to the actual listening position is now defunct since we have PCM
to save our asses,that's great!

Originally posted by ChromeMud:

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Hmm,so Dolby TrueHD is not lossless because it has to go through a DSP...

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No one said Dolby True HD is not lossless.

Dolby True HD is lossless. It's just packaged differently from PCM so it needs to go through a decoder. Like error5 said - the final product is exactly the same - a PCM soundtrack that's "bit-for-bit identical to the original studio master."

Right now cappyx can't take advantage of Dolby True HD because his HD DVD player doesn't have analog 5.1 ouputs and his receiver doesn't have HDMI. Right now he can enjoy lossless sound only from PCM soundtracks in BluRays. If he had an HD DVD player with 5.1 analog outs then could also enjoy Dolby True HD lossless without upgrading his receiver.

The DSP that cappyx was talking about has nothing to do with DOlby True HD.

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whereas PCM via analogue is more pure,no doubt
everybody is happy with this pseudo scientific explanation.

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PCM via analog is exactly the same as PCM thru HDMI. The D to A conversion just happens at different places. No one said that either is better. See error5's excellent explanation above and our discussion here:

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/494479

HDMI 1.1,1.2,1.3,1.3a is total screwing up the consumer.
How can anyone upgrade into this mess right now is beyond me.
I think I'll wait for a year until HDMI recievers,players and TV's
catch up.
I remember when the first HD-TV's appeared,1080i,no HDCP and now are
next to useless with all the DRM lock down preventing them getting
a pure digital signal.
I'm still happy with good old 5.1 Dolby Digital via TOS-Link or Coax.
Maybe my ears need upgrading!

Originally posted by ChromeMud:

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HDMI 1.1,1.2,1.3,1.3a is total screwing up the consumer.
How can anyone upgrade into this mess right now is beyond me.
I think I'll wait for a year until HDMI recievers,players and TV's
catch up.
I remember when the first HD-TV's appeared,1080i,no HDCP and now are
next to useless with all the DRM lock down preventing them getting
a pure digital signal.
I'm still happy with good old 5.1 Dolby Digital via TOS-Link or Coax.
Maybe my ears need upgrading!

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Its the sasuge making for a standard, and sometimes you get inane or silly "brand" fights.

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I am considering going ahead and getting the 2700 yamaha reciever with HDMI and upconversion. with this reciever i should be able to take advantage of lossless audio via an HDMI cable thus one single connection. my concern is if this new reciever will sound anything near my older one. right now i have an RX-V2095 it is rated 100w/ch at .02% thd where the new 2700 is rated at 140w/ch at .04% thd. the small jump in thd is not as concerning to me as the actual quality of the amplifier in the unit. i remember the salesman at tweeter telling me that the 2095 had an upgraded amp from the others of the series and it did bury at newer unit at that time that was quite pricey.

does anyone have any feedback on the 2700 series yamaha?

The 2095 is excellent. Instead of getting rid of it why not trade in or sell your A2 and upgrade to the XA2 (and the highly touted Reon VX HQV chip) to get your 5.1 analog and Dolby True HD. Just use the switcher that dblbogey7 suggested. It's more cables but you get to keep the excellent amplifier section of the 2095.

Originally posted by eatsushi:

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The 2095 is excellent. Instead of getting rid of it why not trade in or sell your A2 and upgrade to the XA2 (and the highly touted Reon VX HQV chip) to get your 5.1 analog and Dolby True HD. Just use the switcher that dblbogey7 suggested. It's more cables but you get to keep the excellent amplifier section of the 2095.

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it's not a bad idea. that 2095 just has a unique quality to it that is very musically acurate and the depth as well as sonic performance is really brought out with this reciever. i am affraid that the 2700 amp section will not live up to the 2095 and i will be dissapointed. i am happy with the audio i get from the toslink connection from the HD-DVD it seems the dsp processor in the 2095 really knows how to handle the newer audio from HD-DVD. i could use the a2 in another room on one of my other hd-tvs and just order the xa2 and switch.

eatsushi: do you know what exactly makes the 2095 amp section so unique? i remember the sales person at tweeter telling me in general however after he switched to the newer unit and the 2095 made that newer unit sound tinty and middy i just bought the 2095 without ever asking anything else.

error5 do you think that purchasing an extended warrenty on the sony s300 is a good idea or not needed? i'm wondering if you know the repair record of the previouse 2 generations.

I suggest keeping an eye on the BDP-300 owner's thread on avsforums for the latest developments:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=860948

The next big announcement from Sony is to come this weekend. They are annoucing 5 to 10 free movies with the purchase of any Blu-ray player.

Originally posted by Baccusboy:

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The next big announcement from Sony is to come this weekend. They are annoucing 5 to 10 free movies with the purchase of any Blu-ray player.

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Baccusboy
does this come from a reliable source?

It's being discussed at avsforums:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthrea...82&page=1&pp=30

It won't be active until this weekend, but you will be able to read about it on this site when it gets put up:

www.bluraysavings.com

Scan of the ad:

Originally posted by Baccusboy:

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It won't be active until this weekend, but you will be able to read about it on this site when it gets put up:

www.bluraysavings.com

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thanks everyone. i am experiencing an issue where the S300 freezes or stops at random and chapter changes so i need to exchange it. i was going to do that today but now i will just re-buy it on sunday and return the defective unit.

If you read the ad, I noticed that you have to choose just one from each of the colored categories. That kind of sucks, as some of the few movie I'd want are in the same category.

Originally posted by Baccusboy:

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If you read the ad, I noticed that you have to choose just one from each of the colored categories. That kind of sucks, as some of the few movie I'd want are in the same category.

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you just gotta choose what you like better of the set in that level. however for another option you could just pick one from each of the lines you like then the remainder lines choose the most popular and sell them on half.com or ebay.since you are getting them for free just underbid the lowest seller by three bucks and it will move fast.

Lol sony copying toshiba's promotion.