Originally posted by Sophocles:

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oh dear.... rumours circulating that toshiba are to drop hd dvd.think

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It is quite possible that Toshiba will in fact end its battle against Blu-Ray, and if that is true then we are all the losers. Not only will be be faced with the buggy and irregular performance of the over priced Blu-Ray, but we will have entered the "Twilight Zone" of High Definition backups, and be subjected to the Nazi tactics of the MPAA and Sony. The worst possible outcome is if Sony gets a major foothold into any new format. Hope upon hoping that HD DVD survives in some usable form, such as backing up Blu-Ray copies to a workable HD format.;)

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Amen brother.

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Thy be fighting words my dear. The truth of the matter yes Warner would have to wait till their contract ends and moves forward however i don't really see the consumers making the final choice we will have a say in the matter but it will always come down to wat will be most cost effective.

[b]In an interview with BetaNews, Universal Studios executive vice president and co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group Ken Graffeo has said that despite rampant rumors the struggling format is here to stay. He did however leave the door open for putting an end to the format war if Blu-ray is willing to make an agreement.

and apart from famous last words!!!!!!
the agreement seems to have been, if toshiba drop hd then we will support blu ray squire. lol i sound like a fanboy. hey maybe i am. if i had listened earlier i now wouldnt have a crap xbox 360 hd addon with no intention of buying films. oh and as for the argument of not being able to do blu ray back ups!!! with the price of blank media why would i want to? if anything kills the next generation of dvd it will be small minded idiots that rip and upload films to torrent sites and the even smaller minded people that think its ok to then download them.
note for the film companys!!!! get the price of your media down. then maybe people wouldnt be so keen to pirate

Those of us who have argued against Blu-Ray weren't doing it because we thought that it was a mediocre technology, but because it is under the control of Sony who will make us all pay for it for some time to come. When Sony first made the Beta Max they collided with the copyright issue and they are one of the original forces behind the notion of "Fair Use." At the time it suited their needs, but now that they own copyrighted movies and music their priorities have flipped and "Fair Use doesn't sound like such a good deal anymore.

Sony and the MPAA/RIAA are in effect controlling two major art forms, film and music. They decide what's hot and what's not while wonderfully creative film makers and musicians are cast aside because they don't fit the business prototype. It's getting to the point where fewer and fewer corporations are controlling most major forms of media, and that allows them to call the shots on what we see and hear. Right now the only hope for art in either of those disciplines is from Indie music and film creators.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with HD DVD as a format. It's based on current DVD designs for both hardware and media. The only major hardware difference was the replacing of a red laser with a blue laser. That meant that manufacturing HD DVD required little in the way of retooling. The price of both hardware and media would have come down much faster then it with Blu-Ray which is tricky to manufacture the hardware and media. This is why I say that we will all be the losers.


A single layer Blu-Ray disc costs about $12.00 for 25 gigabytes and I don't expect the price to come down for years if ever with Sony in control. Sony has no vested interest in marketing recorders or recordable media because they will make more money from licensing and selling expensive movies and recordable media just might cut into those profits. I know that in time Sony will work the bugs out of Blu-Ray and players will come down in price, but media will always be too expensive for those of us who still complain about paying $2 for dual layer.

It would be cheaper to build a rack of hard disks and convert to WMV-HD which can compress a 2 hour High Def movie to about 9 Gigs with still HD quality video and sound. Large hard disks are now cheaper per gigabyte than blu-Ray media and hard drives have already pushed beyond a terabyte. Oh well just ranting now, but time will tell where it is all headed. One thing will soon become certain, enthusiasts will find an acceptable niche in HD technology soon enough.;)

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Sophocles: I don't mean to be a pain but I think you're giving Sony too much credit as to what happens in the BluRay camp. The BDA or BluRay Disc Association has ultimate control.

IIRC the only things Sony has control over are:

1. The prices they charge for the players or drives they make. Other CE makers have the freedom to charge whatever they want for their BluRay capable products.

2. The rates they charge at their DADC BluRay replication plant. If the studios can get better rates at other replicators like CINRAM then they're free to have their discs made elsewhere.

3. The specs for Sony Pictures releases. It's up to the individual studios to put 1.1/2.0 features, BD+ or other stuff in their discs.

...and maybe a few other things

Any changes or modifications to the current BluRay standard and any other key issue regarding the format has to go through the BDA and has to be voted on by the 18 members of the board of directors. This board consists of CE manufacturers and film studios.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc_Association

error5: Good you pointed out that BluRay is not just SOny and is actually one big group of companies.

Who holds IP rights and patents and who stands to make profits from BluRay royalties?

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Originally Posted by Maxpower1987
It would go to BDA member companies once all of the IP and royalty disputes are sorted by the MPEG-LA.

Currently these are the companies that stand to make some amount of money from Blu-ray royalties:

CyberLink Corporation
Dell Inc.
Hewlett-Packard Company
Hitachi Ltd.
Koninklijke Philips Electronics N.V.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. (Panasonic)
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
Pioneer Corporation
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Sanyo Electric Co., Ltd.
Sharp Corporation
Sonic Solutions
Sony Corporation
TDK Corporation
Victor Company of Japan (JVC, minority owned by Matsushita), Ltd.
Warner Home Video Inc.

These are the companies that have contributed IP to Blu-ray.

As for their relative importance in that list, I'll give the top five:

1. Panasonic
2. Samsung
3. Sony
4. Philips
5. Pioneer

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Originally Posted by Maxpower1987
Of those listed, Samsung and Panasonic with Sony and Pioneer close behind. The whole thing is fairly equal and there isn't one single company whose IP stake is significantly higher or lower than any of the others in the five I listed.

Who stands to lose or gain the most, well, the company who stands to lose the most is Pioneer, they have banked heavily on the high-end market for a long time and Blu-ray gives them a great outlet. The others are far too diversified to be effected if Blu-ray were to fail. On gaining, the six big studios stand to gain the most, in the CE world it would be Panasonic and Sony which is why these are the two companies seen fighting most along with Pioneer for the future of Blu-ray.

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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=994913&page=2

Post#38

The only thing missed above is that Sony created the BDA to insure that blu-Ray wouldn't suffer Betamax's fate.

If Sony left the BDA it would collapse without them. Since you've listed Blu Ray patent holders, perhaps you could list their individual patent contributions? Since the real money is going to be with whichever company holds the patent for the media! Who would that be? Trust me Sony has more to gain by blu ray's success than all the others combined, that's why they so militantly advocated for it in the first place and that's why they now support the MPAA Nazi tactics.

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WHY WOULD SONY POSSIBLY WANT TO LEAVE THE BDA. sony dont just release films on blu ray. they are a games company as well.all future ps3 games will be bluray. oh and as well as universal going to bluray releases. paramount have quietly slipped back into the camp as well. so if blu ray
fails it would still be down to the idiot pirates who arnt doing anyone any favours

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WHY WOULD SONY POSSIBLY WANT TO LEAVE THE BDA

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No one said that Sony would leave the BDA?

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so if blu ray fails it would still be down to the idiot pirates who arnt doing anyone any favours

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Wrong! If Blu Ray fails it will be because of its high price. Please note that one person's pirate is another persons fair use. In my experience, people who go around calling others idiots aren't generally "the sharpest pencils" in the box themselves.

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Sophocles
if you want to make it personal im game.
fair use means owning the original bought copy. i think if you look at sites like torrent reactor you know where im going. rips of films that havnt completed a cinema run never mind had a released date on dvd.
sharpest pencil?
you obviously have no lead in yours.
i am in electrical sales and i also run the sevice department. its my job to know whats happening in the market. why do you think i stopped buying into hd dvd.
we can rant all we like but it doesnt alter the fact that blu ray was better presented to the general public. and the next gen console ps3 happened to have a blue ray drive. so even if bought for games you are gonna buy a film or 2 yes? and i can honestly say that i also hate sony and its past failures... minidisk, drm anyone?
is bluray really that expensive? when vhs came out in the uk i can remember vhs rental company`s charging 10 pound plus for a worn out ex rental and 30 pound plus for a new film. vhs players costing upto a thousand. look at the price of dvd players when they 1st emerged. the films where all around 20 pound. the average price of a bluray now. also the same thing will happen to the blu ray players as did dvd. small race of people called the chinese. once they start to produce next gen players at lower prices then the major players will follow suit. and before you say no they wont(the chinese that is)yes they will, ive checked. not exactly the ramblings of a dull pencil eh?
you idiot!!! no just joking ;0)
what do others think?

Originally posted by Sophocles:

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Wrong! If Blu Ray fails it will be because of its high price.

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Then why did HD DVD fail even with such low player prices?

The reason why HD DVD player prices are so low is because Toshiba artificially deflated them mostly as a last resort to failing software sales (compared to BluRay) and Warner's defection.

The low price points for HD DVD were simply not sustainable for such a new piece of technology. Did you even wonder why no other major CE manufacturer wanted to come out with thier own brand of player? That's because it was NOT PROFITABLE TO DO SO.

The current prices of BluRay players are more realistic for new technology and will be profitable for most manufacturers. They can then funnel funds to more R&D thereby improving their future products. There has to be an incentive for companies to make players and HD DVD simply did not supply that incentive. The prices should come down at a reasonable rate as development costs get defrayed.

If you can't afford $300-400 for a decent piece of hardware right now, after investing in an HDTV, then I don't know what else to tell you but to wait until the prices become more reasonable to you.

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if you want to make it personal im game

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Did I make it personal or did you? Calling people idiots could be implied as a statement directed at me. You do know of that using all caps in a statement is considered yelling and not permitted by forum rules?

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i am in electrical sales and i also run the sevice department. its my job to know whats happening in the market. why do you think i stopped buying into hd dvd

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I'm a qualified (certificated) recording studio engineer, educator, computer technologist and a proud computer hacker/geek.

I dislike Sony because of their tactics. I believe that Blu Ray is a fantastic technology but because of its design it has yet to be perfected. It was a major reason that the PlayStation III took so long to hit the market. Blu_Ray still isn't quite right even now and it might be generations before it is.

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he reason why HD DVD player prices are so low is because Toshiba artificially deflated

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Actually HD DVD hit the market being artificially inflated.
HD DVD is really just the same old DVD technology that already exists. All that was really done was an upgrade to standard DVD by giving it a blue laser. Decent DVD burners can be purchased for $35 so exactly how much does a blue laser increase the price over the old red lasers? HD DVD can be manufactured using systems that are already in place.

HD DVD systems are easy and inexpensive to manufacture but Blu Ray is a new design that is not yet perfected. The difficulties involved with manufacturing Blu Ray will keep the prices high for a long time to come, and I suspect that it will be years if ever before Blu Ray media becomes affordable.

I have no problem with Blu-Ray except that now I will have to spend perhaps thousands of dollars more over time to get what is really no better than the format that it beat

Blu-Rays major achievement and leagcy might very well be that the current DVD format will continue to dominate for a long time to come.

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Sophocles
no i did`nt realise and for that i apologise.
and i aint no angel if i can get software for free im going to do it. lets face it some of the films ar`nt worth the money. what better way than to check them out on divx and then buy it if its good and you want the better quality. i just dont agree with people saying the prices for bluray are overinflated(hardware) when vhs was extortionate when it became commercially available. and yes the standard still hasnt reached its final version(2.0). but as ive already stated the best and only fully upgradable bluray player is the ps3, like it or not. version 2 bdlive will be the final standard. ps3 has just been upgraded to 1.1.
i still think that there should have been only one standard between all the manufacturers and studios. but its not the first time its happened and wont be the last. before playstation came out nintendo had signed up with sony to produce a new games system. sony decided they could do it better and somehow nintendo was cut loose. it was only then that nintendo realised they had signed their rights away for a disk drive. thats why they stayed with cartridges for so long and then the smaller disks for the gamecube.
also one of the other factors in the hddvd versus bluray! the stores like game and gamestation(uk). they pushed ps3 and bluray far harder than they did hddvd and the xbox addon.
in the uk the electrical stores like ours(independants) held off on ordering either system because we knew that this would happen sooner rather than later.
so yes i understand your arguments, but after using ps3 for a few weeks now i am very impressed and pleased as punch that i didnt buy a stand alone bluray player.
also i wont buy any more hdvd disks as if in the future my xbox addon fails, where am i going to get another unit from? anyone remember phillips cdi?
anyway apologies again for any offence caused

davej6

I've long tired of conflict so no worries.

Here's an article that regarding some of Sony's tactics that you might find interesting.

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Although celebrated yesterday, the victory was sealed last month when Sony swayed Warner Bros. to back Sony's Blu-ray technology and quit producing movies using Toshiba Corp.'s rival HD DVD format.

What remains a mystery is just how big a push Warner needed to pick sides. Analysts say Sony only prevailed following a heated bidding war against Toshiba, with the reward reaching as much as $400-million (U.S.). Neither side has confirmed the size of any bids or payments.

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he war was over when Sony managed to line up a critical mass of partners - in Hollywood, Silicon Valley and on Main Street.

The tipping point was Warner Bros. But Sony Pictures, Walt Disney Co. and News Corp.'s Twentieth Century Fox Film Corp. had already done the same - signing exclusive sealed deals with presumably rich royalty arrangements.

"This was heavy hitters in a back room talking about what the royalty structure was going to be and how much money they were willing to put on the table to be exclusive with one camp or the other. That was the determining factor here," concluded Van Baker, an analyst with market research firm Gartner Inc.

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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/s.../?query=Toshiba

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Sophocles
i understand what your saying, but is there any difference between that and hddvd paying paramount 150 million?

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s there any difference between that and hddvd paying paramount 150 million?

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As I understand it Toshiba paid Paramount $50 million and Dreamworks $100 million to promote HD DVD, but there were no apparent exclusivity clauses,which left them free to also release in Blu Ray, but I can't say for certain. Sony's payments were intended to exclude HD DVD and put them out of business. However no one knows the truth. My concern was and is that with HD DVD gone the real losers are the consumers.

If I had an opportunity to choose a burner of the two I would have chosen HD DVD because it would have resulted in a much lower price for burners and media. As it stands it's cheaper to purchase a large hard drive for storage than it is for Blu Ray media not including the price of the burner. The cost for 500 gigabyte on blu ray just for media alone is around $160 to $170 (still have to buy a burner) and for a hard drive $105. which makes it about 35% less to store it on a hard drive.

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Originally posted by Sophocles:

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As I understand it Toshiba paid Paramount $50 million and Dreamworks $100 million to promote HD DVD, but there were no apparent exclusivity clauses,which left them free to also release in Blu Ray, but I can't say for certain.

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Then you understood wrong. Paramount/DW were already promoting and releasing on HD DVD at the time. The $150 M deal was to go HD DVD exclusive.

Like I posted elsewhere, the reason why Paramount was the last to switch was lawyers took time to figure out how much of the $150 M they had to return to Toshiba.

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Then you understood wrong. Paramount/DW were already promoting and releasing on HD DVD at the time. The $150 M deal was to go HD DVD exclusive

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Only partly wrong nothing was locked in.

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The two studios may have left themselves wiggle room, however. Paramount’s agreement to use only HD DVD is limited to only 18 months. And Paramount noted that no films directed by Steven Spielberg were included in the deal “as his films are not exclusive to either format.” Mr. Spielberg is a co-founder of DreamWorks SKG, a unit of Paramount.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/21/techno...F+4r1NyAsum87vQ

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Posted on January 4, 2008 by Tyler Pruitt
Filed Under Format War, HD DVD, Blu-ray, Studios |

warner.jpeg

According to a trusted source that was close to the negotiations, Warner and FOX were working on a deal to go Exclusive to HD DVD as recent as last week. Our source tells us that Warner was only willing to go to HD DVD if FOX would go with them. Their thinking was if they just went to HD DVD by themselves, it would not end the format war. Early this week FOX was paid an undisclosed amount to remain exclusive to Blu-ray. With the FOX deal falling through, Warner had no choice but to accept the BDA’s $500 Million offer to go Blu-ray exclusive. We do wonder if FOX was just playing the HD DVD side, while having no intentions of ever switching.

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http://formatwarcentral.com/index.php/20...n-from-the-bda/


I realize that posting links really doesn't mean a whole lost since the essence of the debate was that with HD DVD gone, the consumers are the losers.

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Originally posted by Sophocles:

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Only partly wrong nothing was locked in.

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The NYT article was proven wrong by Paramount CTO Alan Bell. He stated in an interview with PC World that the exclusivity agreement with HD DVD was "for the long haul" and "indefinite."

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,136253...gy/article.html

IIRC, the only way Paramount/DW could be released from the agreement was if Toshiba dropped the format - which they did last week.

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wrong again

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Nope! Right again because I wasn't really wrong the first time and there is nothing in the PC World article that refutes the 18 month deal mentioned in the New York Times. In fact where is the New York Times even mentioned in the PC world article?

An intent of indefinite collaboration doesn't meant that an 18 month deal wasn't made. Where in the PC world article did it say that NYT was wrong? If I had to choose between the New York Times and PC world for my news the New York Times would win hand down.

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urbank (CA) - Warner Home Video announced this week that it will continue to release titles on HD DVD for three weeks longer than it originally anticipated.

Earlier this month, Warner said that it is going to stop supporting HD DVD in May. However, it has now decided to push that deadline back a few weeks to be able to release more of its upcoming titles on both formats.

Despite Warner's Blu-ray exclusivity announcement, over a dozen Warner titles are still slated for release on HD DVD over the next four months. The extension of HD DVD support confirms that Twister and Bonnie & Clyde will come out on both formats instead of being Blu-ray exclusives.

Some other notable Warner titles that will still be released on both formats include Justice League: The New Frontier, I Am Legend, and August Rush.

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Now Tomshardware I listen to.

There are several sites that support the 18 month deal with no mention of the NYT.

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/35741/98/

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Why are you quoting a news article about Warner?

Weren't you discussing Paramount?

Originally posted by juankerr:

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Why are you quoting a news article about Warner?
Weren't you discussing Paramount?

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LOL. Yep - that got me scratching my head too when he suddenly quoted that Warner article.

Anyway, I think this thread has gone waaay too off topic.

Originally posted by error5:

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Anyway, I think this thread has gone waaay too off topic.

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You're right. My apologies for that.

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Why are you quoting a news article about Warner?

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I saw no reason to post anything regarding Paramount since the PC World article did not support your statement that the New York Times article was refuted. I didn't need to add anything about the Paramount deal because there was nothing in your statement to debate. However if you can show me where it is written that the NYT article was wrong then I will stand to be corrected.

I threw the Warner article into the mix so that you both could scratch your heads.;)I just might throw a few more in for good measure.

And no it is not off topic at all!

The original point of the thread is "HD DVD here to stay" which is pretty global.

That leaves the door open for a number of differing opinions regarding its longevity or need for survival. The point that I made earlier in this thread is that Blu Ray really is no better than HD DVD and that Blu Ray technology is buggier, less reliable. That translates into higher prices, and with Sony in charge of an almost gestapo militant protectionism. HD DVD was the more sensible choice because it was built on tried and true technology.

We are entering a time when fewer and fewer media corporations are deciding what we watch and hear, and let artistry and the truth be damned.

The only thing that Blu Ray does that HD DVD doesn't is hold an extra 20 megabytes which amounts to nothing for movie playback since it can hold any movie release, and even less for recording since no one is going to purchase a $16 disc for that purpose. I throw a flip when I get a type 5 coaster. Imagine getting a $16 dollar Blu Ray coaster? Dual layer discs still cost about $2.00 each after having been around for about 4 years so. How long do you think it will be before Blu Ray discs are affordable?

How about never!

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You're right. My apologies for that.

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No need to apologize, without this debate the thread is dead anyway.

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hey guys i think the main get out clause for paramount was if warner went bluray exclusive.which they did. otherwise they were locked in to hddvd for 18 months :0)