All the Sony fan boys who wanted the affordable player HD-DVD format to lose should be very pleased. The ONLY reason that there are Blu Ray players at anywhere near $300 is the former HD-DVD competition carryover. That's gone. The market is simply not willing to over-pay for a Blu Ray player when they saw HD-DVD players at well under $200 (even under 4100 at the end) and upconverting DVD players can be had for well under $100 and they are plenty good enough. The only Blu Ray player worth buying is a PS3 and that only with the $100 Sony Card incentive. And even that is a marginal "buy".

Too bad the wrong guys won.

All the Sony fan boys who wanted the affordable player HD-DVD format to lose should be very pleased. The ONLY reason that there are Blu Ray players at anywhere near $300 is the former HD-DVD competition carryover. That's gone. The market is simply not willing to over-pay for a Blu Ray player when they saw HD-DVD players at well under $200 (even under 4100 at the end) and upconverting DVD players can be had for well under $100 and they are plenty good enough. The only Blu Ray player worth buying is a PS3 and that only with the $100 Sony Card incentive. And even that is a marginal "buy".

Too bad the wrong guys won.

Originally posted by nobrainer:

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i wouldn't let nextgen see you talking like that or the other pro sony anti m$ mod on afterdawn, or one of the numerous sony bloggers, they will take your privileges away A_Klingon.

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Just as we should take yours away for talking bs/instigating moderators with your "assumptions" and your continual violation of forum rules? Do you think comments like these would go unnoticed? You would hope so. You really have been crossing the line as of late and are lucky I am not the mod I used to be when it comes to the way I handle people with bad attitudes here.....REALLY Lucky. But keep it up, you are only digging your own grave by calling people (especially moderators) out.

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I like my dvd upconverter.

Why spend 400.00 for a blu-ray player to play movies in 1080I when i can get a upconverter for only 79.99 and convert my 20.00 dvd's into 1080I at half the price of blu-ray all i look at blu-ray as is another umd movie format and we all could see what was going to happen to this media with the psp.

Sony needs to learn and make some changes if they want to compete in this new economy of money savers and penny pinchers

Here is what would save sony.

1. blu-ray player 200.00 to 100.00 max if they cannot produce this they are already dead.

2. Dvd's are 22.99 to 20.00 u.s so then why do i want to spend 30.00 to 70.00 for blu-ray
I don't think so.

Originally posted by susieqbbb:

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1. blu-ray player 200.00 to 100.00 max if they cannot produce this they are already dead.

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They're coming. Like error5 said, price drops in HDTV's will parallel a price drop in BluRay players.

Quote:

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2. Dvd's are 22.99 to 20.00 u.s so then why do i want to spend 30.00 to 70.00 for blu-ray.

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You're looking at the wrong places to buy. No one pays MSRP anymore. I've averaged $19.00 to $25.00 for new BluRay releases when I buy from amazon. I've never seen a $70 BluRay title unless it was a multi-disc series.

Added: There's a $14.99 sale on selected Fox BluRay titles at fry's.com:

http://www.highdefforum.com/showthread.php?t=71351

Quote:

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$14.99 Fox Blu-ray sale at Frys.com

1. I, Robot
2. Independence Day
3. Sunshine
4. Simpsons Movie
5. Fantastic 4: Rise of the Silver Surfer
6. Pathfinder
7. Kingdom of heaven
8. The day after tomorrow
9. X-Men: The Last Stand
10. AVP
11. 28 Weeks Later
12. Night at the Museum
13. Mr. Brooks
14. Robocop
15. Me, Myself and Irene
16. Eragon
17. Rescue Dawn
18. The Hills Have Eys 2
19. Mr. & Mrs. Smith
20. Ice Age: The Meltdown
21. Die Hard
22. Die Hard 2
23. Die Hard With A Vengeance
24. Live Free or Die Hard
25. Man on Fire


http://shop3.outpost.com/template/dvd

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Wrong, MSRP equals price fixing and indeed affects how much you end up paying for movies. Consider that if the distributors tag a US$30-40 MSRP on DVD and Blu-ray movies, it means that they sell their products to the stores for about half that price.

Indeed some stores offer movies below MSRP, but not all of them do, certanly not everyone around the world, because unless they're a mayor retail store with high sales, it's not profitable to lower their prices permanently.

This has been the mayor problem for the past decade, distributors have refused to lower the MSRP on DVD movies, even so production costs have lowered since 1997, and this tendency will continue on Blu-ray movies.

But if the distributors asked much less to the stores for their products, and established a lesser MSRP, it would be more profitable and much easier to the stores to sell them, since it would be more accesible and atractive for us to buy them even if the store asked full MSRP, and even more people would consider getting movies at stores.

Blu-ray will not gain mainstream market, regardless if Blu-ray players get cheaper in the following years, if Blu-ray movies keep being overpriced. Imagine you get a printer for US$50 just to find out you'll end up paying that same amount every time you need to buy new ink cartridges... someone might say you could spend less if you refill them yourself, which leads me to the following...

DVD became mainstream not thanks to overpriced movie releases, rather because everything related to DVD such as players, recorders and blank media, got cheaper, much cheaper, but mainly when DRM protections were cracked on DVD movies, it allow the vast mayority of DVD users to take advantage of inexpensive hardware and get movies for a small fraction of what they would have paid for at stores.

Consider that movie sales figures acount for only that small percentage of DVD users that actually purchase movies, and currently only a tiny fraction of those are buying Blu-ray movies, it's tough to ignore that Blu-ray is selling a few millions of movies, against billions of DVD movies sold on same periods.

The bottom line is that most consumers preffer DVD, including that vast mayority that actually doesn't get their movies at stores, and rather spend money on inexpensive upconverting DVD players, specially in times where you have to keep an eye on your wallet.

Originally posted by ematrix:

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Wrong, MSRP equals price fixing and indeed affects how much you end up paying for movies. Consider that if the distributors tag a US$30-40 MSRP on DVD and Blu-ray movies, it means that they sell their products to the stores for about half that price.

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This still doesn't change the fact that I have never paid more than $25 for a new release BluRay title even though avarge MSRP's are $39.99. The fact remains that no one needs to pay MSRP if they know where to look. Case in point - the $14.99 sale on fairly new titles at fry's.com.

Originally posted by eatsushi:

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This still doesn't change the fact that I have never paid more than $25 for a new release BluRay title even though avarge MSRP's are $39.99. The fact remains that no one needs to pay MSRP if they know where to look. Case in point - the $14.99 sale on fairly new titles at fry's.com.

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Same here. I don't know anyone who has ever paid MSRP on any BluRay or HD DVD title. There are so many sources out there that price these competitively including new releases. You just have to know where to look.

Here's the thread on avsforums where members inform each other of sales, special deals, BOGO's etc:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=976789&page=91

They're actually talking about the $14.99 fry's.com sale today.

Klingon law states that the dishonorable (ie greedy bastards) will be dealt with swiftly and justly in accordance with the merciful and honorable code of Klingon justice.

Today is a GOOD day for them to die!

This according to the right honorable members of the Klingon high council. And as witnessed by their honorable brothers the Ferengi.

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Originally posted by iluvendo:

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Klingon law states that the dishonorable (ie greedy bastards) will be dealt with swiftly and justly in accordance with the merciful and honorable code of Klingon justice.

Today is a GOOD day for them to die!

This according to the right honorable members of the Klingon high council. And as witnessed by their honorable brothers the Ferengi.

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OK. If you say so.

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Originally posted by nobrainer:

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i wouldn't let nextgen see you talking like that or the other pro sony anti m$ mod on afterdawn, or one of the numerous sony bloggers, they will take your privileges away A_Klingon.

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No they won't. (How did you manage to come up with such an absurd assumption?) I have far more respect for our mods than that, and IF I were indeed to have my priviledges removed, I doubt very much it would be for expressing my honest feelings about something (which I don't trash-to-living-death like some of you), even if I DO tend to stray-off-the-beaten-path more than I should.

(Now, be a good lil' AfterDawner, and go google-up some tasty inexpensive Profile 2.0 blu-ray player deals for me, will ya?)

-- Uncle Klingy (The Chaste) --

Actually I was eaves dropping , and I over heard A Klingon say that !

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Originally posted by Oner:

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Originally posted by nobrainer:

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i wouldn't let nextgen see you talking like that or the other pro sony anti m$ mod on afterdawn, or one of the numerous sony bloggers, they will take your privileges away A_Klingon.

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Just as we should take yours away for talking bs/instigating moderators with your "assumptions" and your continual violation of forum rules? Do you think comments like these would go unnoticed? You would hope so. You really have been crossing the line as of late and are lucky I am not the mod I used to be when it comes to the way I handle people with bad attitudes here.....REALLY Lucky. But keep it up, you are only digging your own grave by calling people (especially moderators) out.

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I recognize a shortcoming-of-sorts in me that I tend to be far more leniant than perhaps I should, and treat the banishing of members as a last resort even though I may believe some of them richly deserve it. I always try to afford folks a second chance.

I may not always be so forgiving. I have (as you know) the ability to eliminate supreme trouble-makers from the face of these forums.

But I appreciate you comments, Oner. We ask SO Little of members. And did you know?

If people would just use everyday, common courtesy when posting, that alone would probably cover 80% of the forum rules, and 80% of the problems that accrue by blatantly ignoring them.

-- Mike --

Originally posted by iluvendo:

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Actually I was eaves dropping , and I over heard A Klingon say that !

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WHEW!

I just got home from work, (after midnight here) and I am trying to catch up with the 'stuff' transpiring a page-or-so back. More stuff to still read .....

See ya in a bit. (I hope!) :-P

Quote:

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Klingon law states that the dishonorable (ie greedy bastards) will be dealt with swiftly and justly in accordance with the merciful and honorable code of Klingon justice.

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(Yeah), we simply cut their heads off with a single blow. (Very merciful; they never feel a thing, or even flinch).

Quote:

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This according to the right honorable members of the Klingon high council.

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Oh, for sure! (And what a positively handsome group of pillagers we make at that!)

Quote:

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And as witnessed by their honorable brothers the Ferengi.

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Absolutely. (I can see you've done your homework, my honourable brother).

I never met a Ferengi who, for a mere slip of latinum-or-two, wouldn't trash his PS3 for a cheap profile 2.0 Sony standalone.

(Or something like that - I have no idea what I'm talking about here - it's very late, and I think I forget what the original gist of this thread was supposed to be anyway. :-P

eatsushi and juankerr, you're missing the point... the reason why you may pay US$15-20 for a movie, is because the MSRP has been fixed at US$30-40, mainly because distributors keep providing overpriced releases to stores, even so production costs have lowered in the past decade. In comparison, today is much cheaper to produce a DVD release, than it was to produce a VHS release 10 years ago, but you have been paying twice or more for a DVD release, than you did for a VHS release.

Granted that you may pay below MSRP for a Blu-ray movie, but you have to see the big picture, not everybody around the world has the opportunity to do so, and for a format to gain mainstream market requires worldwide acceptance and consumption, which is tough when most consumers in the globe are forced to pay full MSRP if they wish to purchase Blu-ray movies, and the vast mayority of DVD users take advantage of inexpensive hardware to get movies for a small fraction of what they would have paid for at stores.

Originally posted by ematrix:

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eatsushi and juankerr, you're missing the point... the reason why you may pay US$15-20 for a movie, is because the MSRP has been fixed at US$30-40, mainly because distributors keep providing overpriced releases to stores, even so production costs have lowered in the past decade. In comparison, today is much cheaper to produce a DVD release, than it was to produce a VHS release 10 years ago, but you have been paying twice or more for a DVD release, than you did for a VHS release.

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Sorry, but I don't get your logic here. I've read you 1st paragraph several times but I still can't seem to get your point. You went from overpriced releases, lower production costs, DVD and VHS - it's hard to follow.

I would say this though: At this point in time it costs more to produce a BluRay disc than it does a DVD disc. This is why I expect to pay more when I buy a BluRay disc.

However:

1. I am able to buy Bluray discs at prices way below MSRP and about $5 to $10 above street prices for DVD's.

2. As production capacity for BluRay increases and as the technology improves over the next few years we should see a decrease in overall costs, MSRP and street prices.

Quote:

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Granted that you may pay below MSRP for a Blu-ray movie, but you have to see the big picture, not everybody around the world has the opportunity to do so, and for a format to gain mainstream market requires worldwide acceptance and consumption, which is tough when most consumers in the globe are forced to pay full MSRP if they wish to purchase Blu-ray movies,

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I disagree. I think everyone has the ability to buy below MSRP if they know where to look.

I appreciate that you care about Bluray going mainstream but remember that it's only barely 2 years old. It's not just movie prices that will determine the extent of market penetration. Like some people have pointed out, lower prices and market penetration of HDTV's will also play a role in Bluray's future.

Quote:

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and the vast mayority of DVD users take advantage of inexpensive hardware to get movies for a small fraction of what they would have paid for at stores.

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Sorry but I don't understand this part too. Inexpensive hardware equals cheaper movies "at a fraction of what they would have paid for at stores?"

I'm not trying to belittle your post since you may have a point there. However, I'm thinking that maybe English is not your primary language so something may be getting lost in the translation.

Thanks to allowing me to explain myself, back in 1997 when DVD was introduced, at this point in time it costed more to produce a DVD movie than it was to produce a VHS movie. Anyone who bought movies at that time expected to pay more for a DVD movie.

Even so in the following years since DVD's introduction back in 1997, it became cheaper to produce a DVD release, even than it was to produce a VHS release, but we didn't saw a decrease on MSRP and street prices for a DVD release.

Depending of course if it was a single disc or a 2+ discs special edition release, the MSRP for a DVD release 5-10 years ago was roughly US$15-25, when DVD production costs where higher than there are today, and most of the time street prices were at best slightly lower than MSRP.

Then the question that has been the general discontent amoung consumers, is if today it costs much less to produce DVD releases, why the MSRP is US$20-35, much higher than it was before? why aren't we paying less for movies?

The fact is that we should be paying much less for a DVD movie even at current street prices, even if you take into account external factors such as inflation, today they should handle a US$10-20 MSRP on DVD releases, so that consumers could be paying lesser street prices, since they're still releasing single disc DVD editions at high prices.

The point is that film distributors saw the opportunity of investing even less money as the years when by, in order to sell overpriced DVD movies, instead of decreasing MSRP for DVD releases, by doing so allowing lesser street prices, which everybody was expecting and it didn't happen.

Granted that at this point in time it costs more to produce a Blu-ray disc than it does a DVD disc, and anyone should expect to pay more when buying a Blu-ray movie. You may wonder what all of this has to do with Blu-ray... well, somehow it feels like history it's repeating itself, like it's a dejavu of something that happened since 1997.

I glad you're able to buy Blu-ray discs at prices way below MSRP and about US$5-10 above street prices for DVD's, but overall movies on disc are overpriced, and understand that not everybody lives in USA nor can't buy on stores such as Amazon without paying additional costs from importing movies.

Any movie format to gain mainstream requires worldwide acceptance and consumption, which is tough when most consumers in the globe, are forced to pay high prices at local stores very close to MSRP, or with the added cost of importing movies from USA, such as import taxes and S&H, you end up spending even more as you would at your local stores.

The reality is that people that live in Europe and Latinamerica, have been paying more for movies than those who live in USA. Where i live any Blu-ray movie has street prices above US$30-40, even DVD movies are priced at US$20-25, when in either case those who live in USA have been paying less than that.

The fact is that globally, Blu-ray movies are more expensive in comparison to USA, as DVD movies have been for the past years, and there's no garranty that as overall production costs for Blu-ray movies decreases, MSRP and street prices should decrease as well, after all it didn't happened with DVD movies in the past decade.

This has lead the vast mayority of those who own a DVD player (don't confuse with those who actually buy DVD movies) to take advantage of inexpensive hardware, in getting movies for a small fraction of what they would have paid for at stores, meaning that since DVD recorders and blank media became much cheaper, a lot of people began to clone rental DVDs or buy them at streets, since cloned DVDs have became cheaper to buy as the years when by.

Consider also that hardware is more expensive outside USA, as people in Europe and Latinamerica have to pay much more, even close to MSRP for Blu-ray players, LCD/Plasma TV sets and Home Theater speaker systems, which is a huge impediment in gaining worldwide acceptance, as it's mandatory to adquire all these equipment in order to view Blu-ray movies.

For instance where I live, the cheapest Blu-ray players with Profile 1.0 are priced at US$600, when in USA they're sold roughly for US$400. Also LCD/Plasma TV sets costs almost twice than what are priced in USA, in comparison a 40" set is priced for US$2000-2500, when in USA are sold for US$1300 or below.

If you consider that LCD/Plasma TV sets don't provide a decent sound, at least compared to CRT TV sets, then the purchase of a HT speaker system or a Blu-ray HT player is necesary, in order to enjoy HD audio in Blu-ray movies. Where I live this would require at least an additional US$1000 investment, of what a Blu-ray stand-alone player costs here, when those who live in USA could invest less than an additional US$500 for such equipment.

If many people within USA are reluctant to accept Blu-ray and spend so much money in upgrading their equipment, the scenario is even worse in the rest of the world, where everything is much more expensive than it's in USA, and even if prices get lower for Blu-ray players and HDTV sets in USA, it doesn't change the fact that the rest of the world, will be always paying more than those within USA.

It's no coincidence that DVD went mainstream and gained exponencial popularity worldwide, at the point when cheaper players, recorders and blank media from Asia became availible, which forced manufactures such as Sony, LG, Samsung, etc. to lower the prices for their products globally, to the point it was cheaper than buying a VCR and VHS tapes.

But even when it has been of the public knowlegde, that cloned DVDs where sold for a fraction of what the original DVDs costed at stores, film distributors have refused to lower their prices, in order to win more consumers.

Even if Blu-ray players were sold under US$200, and good size HDTV sets were sold under US$1000 in a couple of years, which is doubtful since in both cases manufacturing costs are still high, and it will take them more time to lower them, unless inexpensive recorders and blank media is offered to consumers, Blu-ray will remain a niche in the market.

Because if the vast mayority of DVD users have refused to buy DVD movies at current prices, the scenario is even worse for Blu-ray with even higher prices. Granted that maybe Blu-ray player sales are falling because consumers are waiting for the new profile 2.0 models, but if that the case, then why upconverting DVD player sales are rising?

Why would anyone need an upconverting DVD player? You don't need one to watch DVD movies on CRT TV sets, therefore it means if people are buying them, is to use them on their new LCD/Plasma TV sets, meaning that people are preferring to use them to view DVD movies.

Indeed Blu-ray has sold a few millions of movies and players, including PS3, but as long as DVD continues to sell millions of players and billions of movies anually worldwide, not one film distributor will stop producing DVD movies and renounce to that pig chunk of the pay.

Originally posted by error5:

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This is the point that people seem to forget: You need a fairly good sized HDTV to appreciate the advantage of BluRay.

This is why BluRay player prices are fine where they are now and manufacturers prefer to be profitable. They don't have to "act mainstream" until HDTV's become mainstream.

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You forgot the audio side of things. Although you can still use your TV speakers, BluRay (or HD DVD for that matter) simply cannot be fully appreciated without a decent surround sound system - even if you're not using the advanced codecs.

At the bare minimum you're looking at about $400 to $500 for a receiver and $750 to $1500 for speakers. Add to that the average price of $1000 to $1500 for a good-sized HDTV. This puts into perspective the $500 price of a BluRay standalone.

Originally posted by A_Klingon:

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Now, be a good lil' AfterDawner, and go google-up some tasty inexpensive Profile 2.0 blu-ray player deals for me, will ya?)

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Sorry A_Klingon, but if you really have to have a 2.0 player at a "reasonable" price then now is not the time to buy a standalone. First, the upcoming 2.0 players from Panasonic and Sony will be about $500 street. Secondly, all the internet buzz out there points to a mad rush for these machines among enthusiasts, so it could be difficult to find these right away.

You may have to wait for mid to late 2009 or even 2010 for a 2.0 player that's $250 to $300 or less. Be patient.

Originally posted by dblbogey7:

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Originally posted by error5:

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This is the point that people seem to forget: You need a fairly good sized HDTV to appreciate the advantage of BluRay.

This is why BluRay player prices are fine where they are now and manufacturers prefer to be profitable. They don't have to "act mainstream" until HDTV's become mainstream.

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You forgot the audio side of things. Although you can still use your TV speakers, BluRay (or HD DVD for that matter) simply cannot be fully appreciated without a decent surround sound system - even if you're not using the advanced codecs.

At the bare minimum you're looking at about $400 to $500 for a receiver and $750 to $1500 for speakers. Add to that the average price of $1000 to $1500 for a good-sized HDTV. This puts into perspective the $500 price of a BluRay standalone.

Originally posted by A_Klingon:

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Now, be a good lil' AfterDawner, and go google-up some tasty inexpensive Profile 2.0 blu-ray player deals for me, will ya?)

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Sorry A_Klingon, but if you really have to have a 2.0 player at a "reasonable" price then now is not the time to buy a standalone. First, the upcoming 2.0 players from Panasonic and Sony will be about $500 street. Secondly, all the internet buzz out there points to a mad rush for these machines among enthusiasts, so it could be difficult to find these right away.

You may have to wait for mid to late 2009 or even 2010 for a 2.0 player that's $250 to $300 or less. Be patient.

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the new players will lower the cost on the older ones some what, putt in more used players into the playing filed, people would buy in at a higher rte for 150-200 a pop, still there wont be a rush of sales untill the 2.0 players hit 130...

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Quote:

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Sorry A_Klingon, but if you really have to have a 2.0 player at a "reasonable" price then now is not the time to buy a standalone. First, the upcoming 2.0 players from Panasonic and Sony will be about $500 street. Secondly, all the internet buzz out there points to a mad rush for these machines among enthusiasts, so it could be difficult to find these right away.

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Yep - I believe that too, dblbogey7.

(Doesn't matter). I'm in no rush. I've finally gotten the "early-adopter" must-have-@-any-cost fever out of my system now. :-)

arstechnica has a great topic relating to this news article about the poor and falling uptake of blu-ray.

Blu-ray hits bumps in the road to HD market dominance

Originally posted by link:

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Mid-February was a good time to be a Blu-ray backer. Media moguls who had championed the technology were busy floating on yachts in the Pacific, chomping cigars, and stroking white longhaired cats; the billion-dollar payday was at hand. But numbers out last week indicate that standalone Blu-ray player sales plummeted in the early part of this year, and enthusiasm for the hi-def format appears as lukewarm as the applause at an REO Speedwagon concert. Where did all the buyers go?

Last week, both ABI Research and The NPD Group delivered the news: the standalone Blu-ray player market did not suddenly rise up and walk after HD DVD quit the market. Instead, it remained in its bed and took a turn for the worse. NPD reports that player sales dropped by 40 percent from January to February 2008 and increased by only 2 percent the following month.

ABI argues that the Blu-ray player market won't improve to full health for more than a year, perhaps as long as 18 months. "BD player prices remain high, and supplies are limited," says ABI Research principal analyst Steve Wilson. "This is good for the market because most current players do not support all the functions that studios place on the discs. Lacking support for—or upgradability to—BD Live! or Bonus View (picture in picture), consumers cannot utilize all the available options. Manufacturers would rather sell more fully-featured models."

continues via hyperlink.............

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yea i am mad that HDDVD didn't make it, but i am also happy that Microsoft has nothing but downloads now, with no harddrive space to use. Sony is on top with Blu Ray-but it sucks right now, it's too overpriced, and not many people want to spend that kind of money for video when their is the standard DVD which is good enough anyway.

bdoggie08, well said.

I also checked on frys.com deals on bluray, out of about 500 movies they only had about 5 $14 deals, the rest were close to $30 which is a no deal.

A little off topic but those of you looking to buy a dual-format combo player should do so soon. LG (and Samsung) are getting out of the combo game and concentrating only on BluRay. LG's BH200 will be their last combo model and they will be unveiling their first BluRay only player at the upcoming IFA show.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nat.../123_24018.html

Quote:

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Samsung, LG End Combo HD-DVD Lines

In a move to cut costs for the expansion of the next-generation storage market, Samsung and LG Electronics have ended their production of disc players that can play both Blu-ray and HD-DVD movies.

``Since February this year, we have no longer been producing combo players that support the playback of HD-DVD and Blu-ray high-definition discs,’’ a spokesperson from Samsung Electronics told The Korea Times, Monday.

Late-comer LG Electronics also plans to follow in the steps as its bigger local rival with a strong belief that the Blu-ray business will be more lucrative for the company.

``At the upcoming IFA show, the biggest consumer electronics show in Europe, we will unveil a new Blu-ray player to catch up with the industry trend,’’ the spokesman said.

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No word on the plans for dual-format PC drives though.