Harrison backs Blu-ray inclusion in PS3

Price power and games,Price will ALWAYS out sell power,games will always outsell power,the PS3 is a piss poor system currently it might can right itself and become a great system,but sony keeps hurting it every chance they get so the PS3 is much like Nintendo's N64.....

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The original PlayStation made use of the CD optical disc format, followed by DVD in PlayStation 2 (which worked as a DVD player)

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I don't see why people got there boxer in a bunch because of Blu-ray Sony said 3 year ago along with Cell that this was going to be the makeup of the system.But when people find out that a format war is going on now they saying Sony is forceing it on them..Please just kill it because are these the same people that didn't have a issue with DVD play back on PS2.Alot of people really need to do there research when it come to Blu-ray Sony didn't make Blu-ray alone it was the Blu-ray Disc Association.



Who developed Blu-ray?


The Blu-ray Disc format was developed by the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA), a group of leading consumer electronics, personal computer and media manufacturers, with more than 180 member companies from all over the world. The Board of Directors currently consists of:

Apple Computer, Inc.
Dell Inc.
Hewlett Packard Company
Hitachi, Ltd.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd.
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
Pioneer Corporation
Royal Philips Electronics
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Sharp Corporation
Sony Corporation
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
TDK Corporation
Thomson Multimedia
Twentieth Century Fox
Walt Disney Pictures
Warner Bros. Entertainment

http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#bluray_developers

If you have a issue with the price that one thing but don't put the system down if you never had one or spend alot of time around one.Because the price is high don't equal to it being a bad system.

i dont think its a bad system but if it dont sell as well as its cheaper rivals what is the point.for the better part who cares about blueray at this point in the formate war.the ps3 would be on top right now if it was minus the expensive blueray drive.and sony say it need more than 9 gigs i dont see how most of the games on the 360 look great and plays great.so why do the ps3 need blueray.i will tell you so sony can push this formate down you throat and fanboys will stand in line with their mouths open

BobbyBlu
I played on one for 3 hours with all the launch titles so please don't tel me what to think I have enough problems with the voices in my head.

The system is the pitts man....it can get better but sony is doing everything they can to NOT make it better....

the PS3 lacks the games hell even MSG4 is going 360 it lacks the price the WII is out selling it and catching up to the 360 while the 360 is getting a reasonable upgraded revision the PS3 is having its PS2 guts removed....sorry until $ony shows "improvement" I will dog them and point out all the strengths and weaknesses I can see.

the 360 is still ragged but at least they are trying to fix it,I don't think no one wants the PS3 to be downgraded then after 2 years they fianily figure out they made a mistake and create a full new revision....


BTW if sony cant sell consoles then they cant make a profit from games they are constantly shooting them selfs in their foot by PR or downgrade............

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"We needed to have Blu-ray disc from a game design point of view. The chipsets in PS3 chew through data at such a rate that in order to build variety and detail and quality into the games, we need more than nine gigabytes," Harrison said. "Now, the fact that we could also adopt the preeminent next generation movie format into PS3 was an added bonus, not an added cost."

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hmmm....I smell bullshit..lol.

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[quote]"We needed to have Blu-ray disc from a game design point of view. The chipsets in PS3 chew through data at such a rate that in order to build variety and detail and quality into the games, we need more than nine gigabytes," Harrison said. "Now, the fact that we could also adopt the preeminent next generation movie format into PS3 was an added bonus, not an added cost."

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hmmm....I smell bullshit..lol.[/quote]He has half a point however DVD9 spanned across 4 discs will do the same damn thing,and before people start whining about Oblivion load times,it was a launch title.....

Sadly they are starting to believe their own PR Blu ray is a added cost ontop of a already costly system and to fix this they are removing the PS2/PSX support from it.....

Having worked for a major retailer on the release night of the PS3 I must say that those people standing in line for the PS3 are the people wanting you to invest in it. Within the walls of our store those spots in line were selling for $1000 cash, that is a mighty investment for a console. But there were no arguments. On the console flipside for the Nintendo Wii the spots were not being sold. Instead those in line would fight to keep their spot. There was no price for a place in line. Most of my own friends own the Wii because of the relatively cheap price tag. Lastly, the obsession with the maximum final high defition format is reserved for those who can afford the 1080p Plasma or LCD, the PS3 with Blu-ray or XBox, the 7.1 surround ... how many people have that must cash or credit ... does anybody smell a scam? Perhaps the HD industry is trying to perpetuate itself by lying to you and I about quality when we may not be able to recognise any distinguishable quality of an HDMI signal at 1080p or Component at 480P.

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I played on one for 3 hours with all the launch titles so please don't tel me what to think I have enough problems with the voices in my head.

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This is the problem you played three hour & launch games so this is the reason the system is not good to you.Cmon you know this is not enough time plus you played launch titles.

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the 360 is still ragged but at least they are trying to fix it,I don't think no one wants the PS3 to be downgraded then after 2 years they fianily figure out they made a mistake and create a full new revision....

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So you saying Sony not because if so that false.Sony had 5 or 6 firmware upgrades since launch most of it to fix problems lets not forget this is a new console.

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Sadly they are starting to believe their own PR Blu ray is a added cost ontop of a already costly system and to fix this they are removing the PS2/PSX support from it

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No Sony trying to cut cost, some people don't realize Sony taking a 200.00 hit on each console that more than half of the 360.

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how many people have that must cash or credit ... does anybody smell a scam? Perhaps the HD industry is trying to perpetuate itself by lying to you and I about quality when we may not be able to recognise any distinguishable quality of an HDMI signal at 1080p or Component at 480P.

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No that is a myth you don't got to have a LCD or Plasma to enjoy either system.If you own a tube TV thats good you can see clearly that both systems[PS3&360] are a cut above there last consoles.

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This is the problem you played three hour & launch games so this is the reason the system is not good to you.Cmon you know this is not enough time plus you played launch titles.

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Fine I shall paly this game your way,you fail to understand the PS3 is currently L A C K I N G in games.

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So you saying Sony not because if so that false.Sony had 5 or 6 firmware upgrades since launch most of it to fix problems lets not forget this is a new console.

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You fail to see Sony has started plans to fully remove the PSX/PS2 hardware and put in its place a one shot emulation system they them selfs have said they are not going to support.

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No Sony trying to cut cost, some people don't realize Sony taking a 200.00 hit on each console that more than half of the 360.

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Yes they are trying to no lose 400+(PS3 real price 900-1200) on each system sold and by doing that they are lowering its spec.

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No that is a myth you don't got to have a LCD or Plasma to enjoy either system.If you own a tube TV thats good you can see clearly that both systems[PS3&360] are a cut above there last consoles.

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TO fully enjoy the HD side of the newer consoles you do need a HD TV.
yes the new systems look better than the old the 360 is the only one to show its worth the price and even then it could do allot better.


so is there anything else you would me to correct for you?

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You fail to see Sony has started plans to fully remove the PSX/PS2 hardware and put in its place a one shot emulation system they them selfs have said they are not going to support.

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sony to cut cost for the European launch of the ps3 have decided to remove the ps2 chip set out of the ps3 and go to a software solution to run ps2 games along with ps1 games

the good news about this this will result in the console running ps2 and ps1 games better with better graphics but there is a cost it will not play all playstation 2 and ps1 games is what sony has announced todaycredit to Tablepc

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Fine I shall play this game your way,you fail to understand the PS3 is currently L A C K I N G in games.

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I wonder why this is..Oh yeah its a new console but this month 14 game going to be release so people can stop sounding like a broken record.The PS3 can do more than just play games all the time im not going to get into this with you but if you just playing games then you doing the system a disservice & maybe the 360 would be a better console for you.

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TO fully enjoy the HD side of the newer consoles you do need a HD TV.
yes the new systems look better than the old the 360 is the only one to show its worth the price and even then it could do allot better.

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You don't need HDTV to fully enjoy the new consoles,So you saying that if you don't play the games in HD then you wont enjoy the system.HD is only a visual enhancer & a option you can use.Because you don't have HD set does not mean you wont enjoy it that totally false.

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sony to cut cost for the European launch of the ps3 have decided to remove the ps2 chip set out of the ps3 and go to a software solution to run ps2 games along with ps1 games

the good news about this this will result in the console running ps2 and ps1 games better with better graphics but there is a cost it will not play all playstation 2 and ps1 games is what sony has announced todaycredit to Tablepc

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Its cutting costs for them to manufacture but not for the consumer to buy thats the problem,also they are not supporting it thats the other problem making PSX/PS2 pointless on this system.

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I wonder why this is..Oh yeah its a new console but this month 14 game going to be release so people can stop sounding like a broken record.The PS3 can do more than just play games all the time im not going to get into this with you but if you just playing games then you doing the system a disservice & maybe the 360 would be a better console for you.

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Ah yes most of tis games will be ports or ported how many of thos 14 are going to be worth the price of admission?
its going to take a few first party flagship titles to get the PS3 to be any better than it is.

the sad thing is the 360 is a bit better currently and whats sad abotu that is tis been out a year and only just become worth while in the past few months 0-o

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You don't need HDTV to fully enjoy the new consoles,So you saying that if you don't play the games in HD then you wont enjoy the system.HD is only a visual enhancer & a option you can use.Because you don't have HD set does not mean you wont enjoy it that totally false.

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Can you read? to enjoy the full HD side of it....
the 360 has barely shown its worth the price of it,the PS3 has a long way to go,if you have money to burn you wont care,not every has 700 to spend on it.

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the PS3 weakness
price (700 for with games and acc)
sonys poor PR spinning
backtracking on PSX/PS2 BWC(I still dislike MS for it)
devs jumping to other platforms

Strengths
BR (more or less the main strength of the PS3)
Better High def support

Exclusive titles are no longer a help to any system since alot of devs and pubs would rather go in a multi platform route to gain more profit from their titles.

Power is nice but not everything it didn't help the Xbox much and its not helping the PS3 now even tho it seems sony once again over stated them selfs.

the PS3 shouldn't fail but really...how much BS are you willing to put up with at a premium....

Some people don;t like what they are doing for the price they are trying to sale it at.

The stuff that comes out of this guys mouth is complete shit. The only thing that blu ray disc offer is more storage but it comes at a very steep price. Im looking at 8 PS3 isos on one of my private torrent sites all but 2 games could fit on DVD-5 one can squeeze on cd (MLB2k7,Tigerwoods,Sonic,Virtua Fighter5, etc) all the games coulde fit on a DVD-9. The only game to date that uses more 9gigs is Resistance which contains dummy data. If a developer needed more space why not use another disc or compress the texture more, yeah it would cause longer loading times but several hundred dollars for useless tech past to the consumer is stupid. By the way the ps3 uses it ram (shared) in a weird way that pretty much cripples its ability to uncompress textures on the fly when compared to the 360.

Originally posted by plutonash:

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The stuff that comes out of this guys mouth is complete shit. The only thing that blu ray disc offer is more storage but it comes at a very steep price. I looking at 8 PS3 isos on one of my private torrent sites all but 2 games could fit on DVD-5 one can squeeze on cd (MLB2k7,Tigerwoods,Sonic,Virtua Fighter5, etc) all the games coulde fit on a DVD-9. The only game to date that uses more 9gigs is Resistance which contain dummy data. If a developer needed more space why not use another disc or compress the texture more, yeah it would cause longer loading times but several hundred dollars for useless tech past to the consumer is stupid. By the way the ps3 uses it ram (shared) in a weird way that pretty much cripples its ability to uncompress textures on the fly when compared to the 360.

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Not quite BR if the real price of the PS3 is 1200 BR is only 300 of it,the core of the PS3 is still costly

If you run data uncompressed you dont have to worry abotu having a high read speed to unpack it for the most part.
Res has rather large environments almsot on teh scale of oblivtion and its laod times are much lower.

Uncompressed audio is better most of the time.

No DVDBR/HD reader runs at full speed all the time.

Also much like the 360 as they will develop tricks and counter mesuers to help with load times and other things.

In all the PS3 has potential but handicapped badly by sonys inability to get over itself and do it correctly from the start and keep with it.
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the 360 has unified memory architecture (basically shared)
a nugget of gold from game spot
From gamespot, last updated May 5:

The PlayStation 3 has 256MBs of Rambus XDR memory and 256MBs of GDDR3 memory dedicated to graphics. Nvidia also claims that the RSX can take advantage of the combined 512MBs of memory, since it is capable of writing directly to system memory, but the 256MBs dedicated to graphics memory should be plenty for now. The increased graphics memory bandwidth and storage space will let developers use high-resolution textures and enable antialiasing for incredibly detailed, jaggy-free graphics. The programmable shader capabilities greatly increase graphics efficiency, letting game developers create advanced effects such as subsurface scattering and other advanced lighting effects. We expect most game developers to target native 720p and 1080i HD resolutions, as 1080p screens are still fairly rare.
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Now if if any of that is "real" the PS3 is not lesser than the 360 its doing things differently and coming to about the same spot.

all in all the 360 and PS3 are equal in their power and wonkyness.

I agree that they are equal in power but the way the 360 handles it memory and more importantly the distribution is better. All in all whats cheaper the 360. You even said itself Zimmy price matters the most, people are cheap.

Originally posted by plutonash:

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I agree that they are equal in power but the way the 360 handles it memory and more importantly the distribution is better. All in all whats cheaper the 360. You even said itself Zimmy price matter the most, people are cheap.

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ya but the PS3 can handle some things better least on paper ah well its alot like vista in some ways they need to work the bugs out and get stuff running on it for its potianail to be met.

I can see all sides and even discus it when I am not madly ranting at the morons that built it.

the WII and 360 have failings but are working on it the PS3 is stuck in snob vil for the most aprt and that annoys me the most.

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Harrison said. "And it will be, I believe, reflected on as the smartest decision we ever made."

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- Sony shill mouthpiece issues shock statement; says everything Sony has ever done is great

Well duuuuuuhhhh. Did anyone really ever expect anything different from the likes of him?

The truth (that that guy & those like him will never tell) is that they went for BD because it fits with their software & movie business.

Sony stand to corner large sections of the home movie market (& make mega-bucks) if BD 'wins'.

Why'd you think they gambled the company?

Think of it as the movie version (but so much larger) of game royalties, that's what they're really up to.

The rest of this about supposed game size issue is laughable and pure fodder for the sort of infantile & feeble-minded idiots who'll seriously 'cheer on' and be so emotionally retarded as to 'love' a CE corporation.

Think about it.

They're already going down the PC route of decent sized HDDs so what's so aweful about 2 or 3 DVD9's -if there's really so much actual game to be bothered about?
It could be done exactly like we do on our PCs, load 2 or 3 DVD9's just one time and from then on it's simply load one disc in when you want to play the game on your machine.

But of course the truth is that games don't really 'need' of 25gb or 50gb.....

.....but a lazy port overloaded with tedious high def FMV might.

As we all know, we will be seeing the truth of this as there aren't many big 'exclusive to format' games coming for the PS3.
Almost everything decent is really a port of something made for the PC, 360 or the Wii
(cos they have already sold hugely greater numbers and therefore have a market no publisher in their right mind will ignore).

hughjars
has anyone unbaisly did a tear down of Res:FOM yet?
I would like to see what it is.

even if tis 11GB real game data not filler or FMV.

I've yet to get into looking at the games deconstructed zippy but I do know that every BD-rip movie out there right now is less than 23.5gb with two exceptions
(1 at 30gbs and the other at 41.....both MPEG2, of course).....and that's movies not games.

They 'needed' 50gbs'? Yeah for Sony to keep using MPEG2.

The rest of it is pure con. Fools and their money etc etc.

As Jim Royal on UK TV would say "my arse"!

Originally posted by hughjars:

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I've yet to get into looking at the games deconstructed zippy but I do know that every BD-rip movie out there right now is less than 23.5gb with two exceptions
(1 at 30gbs and the other at 41.....both MPEG2, of course).....and that's movies not games.

They 'needed' 50gbs'? Yeah for Sony to keep using MPEG2.

The rest of it is pure con. Fools and their money etc etc.

As Jim Royal on UK TV would say would say "my arse"!

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They needed the 50GB for the next 10 years of gaming..wait they want to bring the PS4 out in 011 strike that plan...


well the game is confirmed 21-22 GB so if they did not compress audio or the video thats almost half it.

I think the PS3 could benefit more from compression algorithms that suit the cell than to just spam data out across the disc and hope it speeds up things...

anyway with HD cacheing they can make things load faster if need be.

all in all the PS3 is not what they are advertising game wise.
Sony needs to shut up stop dckign with the specs and make a solid full BWC system that has good BR and online support so far the only thing worth while is the movie support

for 600.00 bucks you would think you would get a good oline service like xbox live.even if you hade to pay 50.00 bucks a year for it online gameplay just adds value to these 60.00 games we buy.because for the most part you breez thru most games in a few hour or days.so when you beat the campaing there is oline multiplayer.that can give you more enjoyment from your 60.00 investment

Originally posted by deesy32:

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for 600.00 bucks you would think you would get a good oline service like xbox live.even if you hade to pay 50.00 bucks a year for it online gameplay just adds value to these 60.00 games we buy.because for the most part you breez thru most games in a few hour or days.so when you beat the campaing there is oline multiplayer.that can give you more enjoyment from your 60.00 investment

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meh 50 a year is a waste.but then again MS had the time to build up their online.

hell Nintendo slaped something worthwhile together pretty quickly even if you are paying for it in less graphics.

Sony is pretty much lost and blind.

i agree fully with you on that sony left out some pretty basic stuff in favor of high end bull that many gamers dont want or cant afford.sony and nintendo fanboys may not want to admitt it but the 360 is the best bang for the buck if you dont want blueray

Originally posted by deesy32:

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i agree fully with you on that sony left out some pretty basic stuff in favor of high end bull that many gamers dont want or cant afford.sony and nintendo fanboys may not want to admitt it but the 360 is the best bang for the buck if you dont want blueray

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again BR is not the problem even it was DVD it would be a 400-500$ system,if sony would stop the madness and focus on devliering a better product at a discounted premium price they could easily help them selfs,however all this backsliding,spin and lies is just to much.

Agree.

Had to laugh about the PS4 comment (no physical storage is even planned there, right?)

Plus losing all that exclusive content is going to hurt really badly in the coming years.....and keep repeatedly proving all their claims about the 'need' for size to be little more than exaggerated spin for their sheeple.

Originally posted by hughjars:

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Agree.

Had to laugh about the PS4 comment (no physical storage is even planned there, right?)

Plus losing all that exclusive content is going to hurt really badly in the coming years.....and keep repeatedly proving all their claims about the 'need' for size to be little more than exaggerated spin for their sheeple.

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the PS4 is currently vaporware they cant afford to make another system else they will wind up like Sega of coarse they would rather dig a grave and lay in it than do something good for gamedom or even themselfs.

Its funny they've got some nice claims abotu the PS3 online yet have not offered much on it and now they want to make a full streaming system in 4 years?
it would do well in asain markets where the goverment has bitch slapped the corporations to provide better cheaper connections but the US has spotty serives nation wide and the UK is even worse.

they cant even get this thing off the ground....Sony is digging their grave and refuse to do anythign else.


to me the only logical thing sony can do is to drop the low altogether, sell the high end system at a loss keep the PS2 hardware but improve it thru firmware and partial emulation as to improve old gaming(heres a thought to all you moronic corporations SUPPORT THE GAMES YOU GOT AND MORE PEOPLE WILL BUY MORE SYSTEMS AND THEN ON A WHOLE YOU SALE MORE NEW GAMES DOOHHHH),because you dropped the price 150 more you can leave the price at 400-450 for the next 4 year.

then I would then split the Online part into premium and free the premium side offers allot of freebes and points to spend in a month and lets you download a unlimited amount of of that "free" stuff and unlimited MP play.
if you buy points that dose not add to your weekly bandwidth allotment,free side has something like 2GB a week or something to balance out the network and cost,this only effects free MPing,demos and such pay for MMOs,music movies and crap dose not count to your weekly allotment.

http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/5314/ps3sucksui9.png
take look at that like I said the space isnt needed and I forgot (thank hughjar) with the HDD you can carry some of the load to the harddrive (caching). Also why have a crappy the Mpeg2 codec for FMV when VC-1 is here or *sigh* use in game graphics if the ps3 is capable of "4d graphics" shouldnt it be better...Oh wait Sony is cheap and doesnt want to pay microsoft for their advance codec. I can provide alot more samples on why the space is wasted. By the way Zippy most Blu-ray rips are 25 gigs or less but the one that are over either look like shit eg:Click or for example like Silent Hill contain the exact same movie twice with a portion of the disc with director commentary overlayed over the video to "pretend" there are extra (lame). BD-J is all f'ed up so this was quick solution. Sry if I sound bias but thats the truth like I said I had the Samsung and knew Blu-ray sucked since then.

plutonash
Yes Mpeg2 is evil and pointless in this day and age.
Yes BD-J was very fcked up and they have been slow to fix it

I have always said HDVD has been more on thier feet and didn't miss many hurdles while BR is sloppy and drunk because Sony is helping them with their cloths off...

The PS3 has some potinail but Sony has been beating it dead for the most part while the 360 has made MANY mistakes they are sloppily improving,the WII needs a bit more polish in order to be prefect as it can be.


Its a shame Sony has to be that way just think if pushed to get VC-1 and pushed to get cheaper consumer prices and pushed hard to be the best mix of technologies and price they would have jump started the new format age,however they have costntaly looked out for number 1 and its starting to show in everything they do...

The funniest thing about this argument is that people keep dissing Sony for its lack of firmware and games when 360 had the same issues and and still have issues with their system thats the whole point of them doing the 360 Revision. When the 360 was release plenty of peoples systems had errors, some died and still are dying and there was a serious lack of games and game quality. 360 is just starting to pickup as of 1-1-07. Sony is trying to play catch because they choose to wait and yes the price isn't the best thing but too many of y'all act like the 360 didn't or never had issues. I have already replaced my 360 twice once because it just straight died after I got it a week later and second because it erroring out. When PS3 is out long enough and they don't have nothing to truly show for the $500- $600 price tag then i would agree with all the complains. I feel that the only reason most of y'all saying this is because the 360 has been out for over a year and you had another choose before seeing what Sony had to offer. Yeah the Wii is holding its ground because of the price but the graphical output at this point dont match the 360 or PS3 and I have all 3.

spydah
Dont get me wrong,might be focusing a bit much on the PS3 but all the new systems has WTF weakness's the 360 and the PS3 are so close on the WTF meter its scary the 360 might have more games and might seem a better option but frankly it blows I would not waste more than 140 on the model 1 because of the high fail rate,now the new revision I will probably get.

The graphics on the WII are dated but what gets me is the lack of detail in control and support for that control for older gaming

see what I mean go here
http://www.gamepoliticsforums.com/showthread.php?t=1664

its so easy to make a frimware patch that lets the OS remap the controls.

I find the arguements about XBox v PS3 a real diversion from the heart of this.....IMO the whole point about BD & the PS3 is that it really isn't about gaming.

That's how come gamers can complain about be forced to adopt an expensive 'system' which is really all about a different media 'war' altogether (movies) and it's how come film-lovers can heartily loath what Sony have tried to do with BD.

.....and those people who always instantly try to deflect justified criticism of one 'system' with a what about the other really aren't putting forward much of a debate.

hughjars
got it in one.

Altho the 360 shares alot in common with the PS3 on that front...

JMHO, I do not own ANY of the new consoles. I have a PS2 modded, a coleco vision, and a PC. Many of the old games the wife and I like to play are on the coleco vision. PS2 I have not updated a lot of titles, because I am finding use, new in box pc games for $5 on ebay. I like the 360 idea and use of hardware, but do not like the issues it has with hanging up. I like the PS3, but the price of admission is not worth it for now. I kinda like the Wii, but there it does not get me warm and fizz inside. I like old games alot, that is why I have a coleco vision. I also like harder newer games, graphic intensive, hence the pc. I have a HDTV and 7.1 surround for movies, yet I do not own either HDDVD or BR. I not there on either format. I think $ony goofed up and forced one in the system, M$ was smart on that 1. However M$ rushed their system out aqnd punished the people that bought the system first. I do not know enough about the Wii in terms of crashin or on-line play to comment, therefore I won't.

I cannot rememeber a time where the cartage game would crash. I know graphics are far superior today, but so too are the problems with these systems. I think a little more product development for ALL of these new models should have been done. I will wait and see. If I were $ony and saw the units not selling, I might want to release the code to modders so it can be broken.

First to get a system modded will sell more units. That is why PS2 did well, even after 10 versions or so, with the mod-chip and you could use it online. Xbox crowd couldn't go on line and look how the sales of the system suffered.

Folks we do have a choice, if something is crap, do not just buy it because it is the first. Nowadays anything that comes out and people are the firsts to buy it always get burned. Look at win98, vista, newer game consels.

Sorry for the long winded reply, but this was bothering me for awhile.