AfterDawn: Tech news

Audio watermarking to HD-DVDs

Written by Jari Ketola @ 03 Nov 2005 1:35 User comments (70)

Audio watermarking to HD-DVDs A new technology for watermarking movies has been unveiled at a conference held by the DVD Forum in Paris. The new technology relies on unnoticeable watermarks on the audio track instead of more commonplace image based watermarks. Future movies will include the watermarking on the audio track, and HD-DVD players will look for these marks on discs played on the device.
The watermarking works by encoding a digital signal to the audio track by varying its waveform. Even though unnoticeable to the human ear, the player can easily Decode the signal and detect if the copy has been made in a movie theatre.

Similar watermarking will be implemented on consumer discs as well. When such a watermark is detected, the player will check if the disc played is genuine or not, and if it's not, the player will shut itself down.

In order for the player to determine the copy illegal the watermark signal must be present for an extended period of time. That should prevent the "false positives" that could be caused by, for example, taking a home video in an environment with a watermarked movie playing in the background.

Electronic Frontier Foundation's intellectual property attorney Fred von Lohmann is somewhat concerned about implementing a new watermarking technology. "For any watermarking scheme to be effective, technology companies have to be forced to re-engineer playback devices to detect the watermarks," von Lohmann told New Scientist. "The risk is that Hollywood starts dictating the redesign of existing DVD drives, CD drives, hard drives, and personal computers, all to buttress the watermark."

Watermarking can be very effective indeed in preventing pirated copies from being viewed on next generation players. With HDCP being mandatory on all "HD Ready" devices, the entertainment industry is pretty much making sure that no HD player with the watermark check bypassed will be able to enter the market.

Source:
New Scientist

Previous Next  

70 user comments

13.11.2005 2:16
Cbielling
Inactive

Someone will find a way around this. Im not a tech expert, but it may come down to actually modding the DVD players if this watermark cant be taken out.

23.11.2005 3:44

Modding DVD players - Are you mad? Its just a matter of finding a way to encorporate the same watermark on copied discs.

33.11.2005 3:47

read this thread on the watermark http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/251845 and this one Sony delivers rootkits with their digital rights management software http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/251489 this seems to be a big deal,it been hot on the net for 3-days November 3, 2005 HOW TO REMOVE THE SONY DRM ROOTKIT..........Sony's controversial hidden rootkit automatically loads into your machine when you put a newer Sony music CD in your computer. The software will break your computer if you try to delete it, uses 2%-3% of your CPU overhead at all times (whether you're playing the disk or not), and creates a vulnerability allowing others to install permanently cloaked (hidden) files and programs on your machine. Here's the lowdown on the rootkit: SysInternals. Our "Go There" link below is for a complete uninstall of the rootkit, available only by submitting a form to Sony. A partial solution is also available, but it only removes the cloaking, which is obviously not a complete cure for the offensive elements of this malware, but is available for direct download. This link leads to the software to remove the cloaking.....(free).....GO THERE! http://cp.sonybmg.com/xcp/english/form14.html

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Nov 2005 @ 3:56

43.11.2005 4:13

my question is will they run on old dvd players... Imean I have an old carisell in the family room and it hasnt puked on any of the new dvds and if it will play them with out the dmr tags that are coming out on the new players why would I change what im using and buy a new dvd player to give them more money ... really when I bought my fist dvd dual layer burner it was to back up my kids playstation games in case they scratched them and if the companies who make the games and the dvds would just replace them when they quit working then I wouldnt have to do it.... really the old cartrigde games from netendo work great and they dont get scratched and my kids still have all their n64 games so why cant they come up with some kind of if it get schrached sentd it back and we'll replace it program and the most of us would be happy .... the first time I had to replace a game that got nailed by a cd rom gone bad I was pissed and instead of buying the game again I bought a cd burner and barrowed the game from a freind and replaced my scratched one . I know there is some ethical reson I shouldnt have but the burner was cheaper then buying the game again and since I did buy it origonally I wanted it replaced... thats all Im saying replace my cracked(damaged) scratched and other wise useless cds and dvds ,games and movies and I will give them (send it out tomarrow ) my burner other then that they'll have to peal it form my cold dead hands.............after all I bought them (the games and movies legally,.

53.11.2005 5:37

wtf??no more standard dvd's this is bull s**t i just got a brand new dvd player cost me ALOT!!!!now i have to out up wit this s**t come on give us all a break

63.11.2005 5:39

I agree with Cbielling, It will probably be just like the GameCube. Every one thought that the GameCube couldn't get hacked, and someone did it using a game and the BBA. It took a while, but someone did it. Hackers will find a loop hole somewhere in the program, and then all that money spent on the protection will be wasted. But for modding the DVD players, I don't see that happening since they aren't as advanced as most Game consoles which have alot more things built in them to stop you from playing copies of your games.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Nov 2005 @ 5:54

73.11.2005 5:46

Everyone read this while its up .... they are admitting to doing it to us even now and then they wonder if its ethical ...Sony needs to be avoided.... http://apnews.excite.com/article/20051103/D8DKP1KO7.html while not admiting to wrong doing they ae giving up a patch to remove spyware that they just loaded on your system but isnt it against the law to put spyware on systems? now that the RIAA is owned by companies like sony mgm and others they think they are untouchable by the laws that govern this country.. buyers be ware Sony is leading the pack and we have allbeen dupped again.. so now they want us to load anothe rpatch on our systems from them

83.11.2005 6:26
bliberal
Inactive

Hollywood can do what they like, but when we consumers decide enough is enough and we simply refuse to buy the new drives and refuse to buy or rent the new watermarked disks, they will get the message. I started with reel-to-reel tapes, moved to 8-track cartridges, moved to cassettes and from records to CDs, because I did not want to be left behind by technological changes. Then Betamax appeared, and I bought one. I was forced to move to VHS by technology. I got into home theater and found Laser discs (LD) to be the better medium. LDs were displaced very quickly by our standard DVD. I just do not think I will keep upgrading. Especially now that Hollywood is so freaked and insisted on the new unconstitutional digital millenium act. Please join me in saying NO to the HD DVDs, at least until Hollywood gets a very severe financial message.

93.11.2005 6:37

I will!!!!!


Playstation 2-Free McBoot,HDloader 8.0c,Open PS2 Loader 0.7,80gb Maxtor HDD,SMS Media Player,PGen,SNES Station- Installed
GameCube-SDload,SD Card Adapter,BBA Adapter,2 Color Case,GnuboyGX,MPlayer- Installed

103.11.2005 6:37

gibney85,

Quote:
Its just a matter of finding a way to encorporate the same watermark on copied discs.
Actually the presence of the watermark is the telltale that the player is looking for. If the "theatrical" watermark is there, the player knows the recording was made illegally. Cbielling,
Quote:
Someone will find a way around this. Im not a tech expert, but it may come down to actually modding the DVD players if this watermark cant be taken out.
Possible, but it'll probably take quite awhile before next-gen players can be modified. If at all.

113.11.2005 6:58

hello Ketola and to all i agree to quit buying sony..it went to far.. as per my post to whisperer., http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/251489

123.11.2005 7:02

They may look back on this manuver and wish they could take it back. The American public loves new technology but this stunt may be the straw that breaks the HD-DVD's back. New players will be expensive and new HD-DVD movies will be expensive. They need to sell well from the get go and this little bombshell may doom the technology before it has a chance to get off the ground. Serves that right.

133.11.2005 7:06

In reference to mystic's post on SONY I am in utter disgust... Where will it end? I think people are not sticking up for themselves these days. Especially teenagers. THey just spend frevilously on every new little gadget.

143.11.2005 7:08

Hollywood just needs to give it up. You would think by now they'd have figured out it doesn't matter what they do to try to stop people from copying movies, Someone will always find a way around it sooner or later.

153.11.2005 7:12

Soooo... in order to make a video HD-DVD, you need to bring it to a major movie company, because they are the only ones with this watermark ability? lol! <confrused>

163.11.2005 7:41
eas4uk
Inactive

The dvd players will surely be hacked/modded to get round this just like they are today for the multiregional aspect - the silicon whizzkids out there will get round this - they always do...

173.11.2005 7:43

im not being suckered this time ima wait it out till its hacked and served on a silver platter then ill go to best buy and buy my hd-dvd burner and blank media. i suggest you all do what has been said and boycott this madness we call technology.

183.11.2005 7:50

Wasn't something like this tried once with VHS tapes, to keep people from copying VHS movies? As I recall (and this was many years ago), it never really came to anything.

193.11.2005 8:27

The DMCA needs to be tried and struck down by the supreme court and The Movie/Music industry should be heavily dealt with for their actions and limits placed on what they can/cannot do to protect their precious "intellectual property". If a vote was taken to enact a dollar tax for every pack of CDR/DVDrs in exchange for complete immunization from the MPAA/RIAA, I'd vote for it in a second! Software companies need to be put in their place as well to a lesser extent. I'm tired of being treated as a criminal while real pirates laugh their asses off!

203.11.2005 8:40
Reasons?
Inactive

If they can use software to "watermark" the discs so that players will accept them, so can we. Someone will just have to decode the signal, and create software that will put the same signal back onto your copy.

213.11.2005 8:44
Reasons?
Inactive

One more, we are being faced with alot more difficult DRM spawn than this. Much much more difficult, this is nothign thrown on the top of AACS, HDCP, PVP-OPM and PVP-UAB. They could possibly throw in even mor eif they wanted. Just plain making the copy is going to be hard. That will require modchips to the hardware and use of an OS that will do what you want, like Linux.

223.11.2005 8:45

so thats it no more standard dvd's???now we having these new hd -dvd bull s**t i hate it..

233.11.2005 8:52

I have a very important question if were discussing how to override the protection can't SONY or the like read it to and make adjustments to thier plans? Just a Thought!

243.11.2005 9:01
cappyx
Inactive

Big deal... another waste of money! someone will simply imitate what is needed via software to defeat this bs. Again If you want to stop piracy simply lower your prices until it is not reasonable nor cost effective to make a copy. then you would not have to pay stupid companies like macrovision and watermark for thier silly services.

253.11.2005 9:01
Reasons?
Inactive

It's not a good thing, they can anticipate a the levels of attack like the peolpe actualy capable of fulfilling our ideas can. They don't even need to interrogate DVD Jon to know what we'll do. They know they can't stop anyone dtermined, they are just goign to make it difficult, illegal, adn expensive. DVDs were cracked on a software level, now e are the hardware level with these new formats, we'll need modchips and the like, but we can do it.

263.11.2005 9:24

This is just stupid. The movie industry is realizing that the average consumer is becoming more and more capable of putting out a decent home movie and they're doing everything they can to control technology and make it impossible for them to do it. I read another article that was talking about how they wanted to regulate all devices capable of converting analog signals to digital signals. That's a lot of stuff we use every day. Basically, they want us to get their okay before we use soundcards, camcorders, or anything with an analog-to-digital converter. This should be shot down, but who knows? They just might buy off the right person and make it law. (They're also trying to regulate digital-to-analog devices, but there's only so much they can do there since they've pretty much become a necessity.)

273.11.2005 9:32

if this watermarking requires you to have a new dvd player or hd dvd player then its never gonna happen, they couldnt just stop selling regular dvd to sell hd dvds cos nobody would have the hd dvd player to play them on. they would have to continue selling dvd's as well as hd dvd's in order to make a profit. just like dvd's when they came out they didnt quit making vhs because not everyone was gonna throw their vhs players out and go buy a dvd player. if the move to hd dvds does happen it will be years before dvds are fazed out leaving plenty of time for someone to work a way around it, wasnt all that long ago that dvd's first came onto shelves and were uncopiable. the technology was created to bypass copy protect on dvd's long before the decline of vhs. its just another hurdle to jump and someone will crack the watermarking long befor hd dvd players become cheap enough for me to get of my lazy tight ass and wanna go buy one

283.11.2005 9:36

If and when this goes thru....will it still affect conversion of an Orig DVD to DivX. If DvD ripping is out because of software detection....then what about capturing ? You should should be able to put the orig dvd in the new player, output to good capture card to DivX....yes ? I realize Quality will be slightly less, but Nothing can stop that process...can it ? ? ? just curious...

293.11.2005 9:40
edma655
Inactive

Could you buy DVD players that were DivX certified and burn them in THAT format?

303.11.2005 9:44
edma655
Inactive

You can for instance BURN a HD DivX disc or so I have been told.

313.11.2005 9:58

So, it would seem there is some confusion about this article. From what I can gather the watermarking is destined mainly for theatrical releases of movies, so this technology they want implimented in EVERY DAMN HD DVD player on the planet is to prevent cammed movies that have been burned to disc from playing?!?!? I suppose they want to put it on the soudtrack of broadcast TV stuff too. They are WAY to friggin' proud of their crappy movies and TV shows. That's all I can say. Have you read about the "analog hole" bill that hollywood is greezing palms in washington to get passed? http://p2pnet.net/story/6818

323.11.2005 10:07

MightyOne: Unfortunately windows vista and hd-dvd players will have to have authenticated you monitor or TV screen as being secure before a signal is passed onto it, meaning it will soon detect when it is connected to a capture card and will not play. You cannot do that with current dvds anyway due to macrovision protection.

333.11.2005 10:54

its started World of Warcraft hackers using Sony BMG rootkit Published: 2005-11-03 Want to cheat in your online game and not get caught? Just buy a Sony BMG copy protected CD. World of Warcraft hackers have confirmed that the hiding capabilities of Sony BMG's content protection software can make tools made for cheating in the online world impossible to detect. The software--deemed a "rootkit" by many security experts--is shipped with tens of thousands of the record company's music titles. Blizzard Entertainment, the maker of World of Warcraft, has created a controversial program that detects cheaters by scanning the processes that are running at the time the game is played. Called the Warden, the anti-cheating program cannot detect any files that are hidden with Sony BMG's content protection, which only requires that the hacker add the prefix "$sys$" to file names. Despite making a patch available on Wednesday to consumers to amend its copy protection software's behavior, Sony BMG and First 4 Internet, the maker of the content protection technology, have both disputed claims that their system could harm the security of a Windows system. Yet, other software makers that rely on the integrity of the operating system are finding that hidden code makes security impossible. http://www.securityfocus.com/brief/34

343.11.2005 10:58

I can! I use to use my WinTV USB to record DVD's to CDRS(VCD) and they looked great! Now that I have a DVD Burner I don't do that as much

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Nov 2005 @ 11:03

Playstation 2-Free McBoot,HDloader 8.0c,Open PS2 Loader 0.7,80gb Maxtor HDD,SMS Media Player,PGen,SNES Station- Installed
GameCube-SDload,SD Card Adapter,BBA Adapter,2 Color Case,GnuboyGX,MPlayer- Installed

353.11.2005 11:29

I'm guessing AnyDVD will detect and remove this watermark in the future

363.11.2005 12:06

Pardon my confusion but will someone explain how the dvd player is going to check to see if the disc is legitimate?? I understand why the watermark is such a big deal for the companies. 30 minutes after the first showing of a movie the studio spent 100 million dollars to make, there are pirated copies selling in Bejing etc. by the millions. The watermark would stop ( I think) a pirate from videotaping a movie in the theatre and then burning it to disc for mass distribution. The copies with the watermark wouldn't play on the new dvd players. As someone has already posted this wouldn't have any effect on existing dvd players. My question is how they plan to do this with home dvd editions?? If the home dvd edition has the watermark it shouldn't play or it should trigger a check to see if the disc is legitimate. If the disc has been copied how does the watermark program stop the copy program from copying whatever makes the disc look legitimate to the player. Let's look at this from a studio standpoint to be fair. While a few of us might enjoy a less than perfect movie copy over the internet this has minimal impact. When there are millions of copies burned and sold commercially that is another matter. I would think that getting better cooperation from china etc. would be a better solution than the watermark but I can understand the studio's position. What galls me is their objection to even making an archival copy in cae the orignal gets trashed. By the time a home edition dvd is out the movie theatres have longed stop playing the film and ticket sales are preserved. So I can't see the watermark being of use in home edition dvd's.

373.11.2005 12:35
duckNrun
Inactive

ok..so the watermark will be like some 'second layer' Macrovision scheme? For movies recorded via cam corder the pirated copy will reveal a theatrical watermark and refuse to play... but what about consumer based HD DVDs? Will they have a watermark that will require to be present? Will it be a different one from the theater releases (I'd assume so!)? Will the new HD DVD players only play ANY DVD (even a home made one) that does, or doesn't, have a certain watermark? I really see no issue here for home DVD use...... so I go buy a HD DVD movie. I come home and play it on my settop HD DVD..no problem there! I pop it in my pc (and assuming some anti-pc DRM hasnt been placed on it) I can watch it on my pc. I go and exercise my fair use rights to place it in my media server (or make a back up).. but wait... there's a watermark present in the audio stream.... #1: oh but it's spose to be there to signify protection schemes... ok a ripper is devised that keeps it in the audio. or #2: Oh it needs to be removed to make the disc look like a homegrown movie so that your PC HD DVD player will allow you to rip (or play) it? As has been pointed out something (e.g AnyDVD, whatever ripper) intercepts the watermark and deletes it before it hits the recording/playing software This watermark tech already has a layer of insecurity built into it by the fact that HD DVD will be designed with the ability to be shared over a home network/media server. "...HD DVD incorporates the ability to allow consumers to copy discs for personal use, ie. to a Media Center's hard drive, and then to beamed around the house via wireless networks to Media Center Extenders. "HD DVD discs also will allow copies of the movie to be played on portable devices," said Intel." (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/27/intel_ms_hddvd/) So it appears that copying will be supported...maybe not removing advets, fbi warnings, menus and extras... until that watermark is removed.. but I seriously think that this will be a non-issue within a relatively short amount of time. And whenever I post to this kind of thread: AS ALWAYS EVERYONE HERE SHOULD BE WRITING, CALLING, EMAILING THEIR SENATORS AND CONGRESSPEOPLE (AND TELLING THEIR FRIENDS AND FAMILIES TO DO THE SAME) TO SUPORT (H.R 1201) WHICH WILL REMOVE THE MOST CONSTRICTING PARTS OF THE DMCA FROM LAW AND ALLOW CIRCUMVENTION FOR FAIR USE ONCE AGAIN (AND ALLOW DVD Decrypter AND OTHER CIRCUMVENTION SOFTWARE TO NO LONGER BE IN DANGER OF LAWSUIT AND PUNISHMENT! Just Do IT!

383.11.2005 12:37

ireland: Very interesting info. Thanks-

393.11.2005 12:59
duckNrun
Inactive

and yes I was shouting at the end of the previous post! (lol) Now its your turn to go and 'shout it' go on...... what you still doing here reading? Go support this legislation and your rights! ...hey are you STILL here? Go on and close this window and start writing that letter to your elected officials! This is Serious stuff man! ...grrrr!!! are you just toying with me? No... do NOT scroll down!! Go on! Become involved instead of just sitting here like some mindless husk complaining about how life is so unfair.... ok this really isn't funny! Are you just Sheep? Cattle? Perhaps this is some scrolling addiction that your finger needs addressed?? No? Ok Wonderful! So go suppport H.R 1201... ok? Good lol....

403.11.2005 16:02

Are they going to take out the standard dvd's and bring in the new HD-DVD's i have talk about this and noone has responded thank you

413.11.2005 17:21

Sony went way overboard with its use of rootkits in its DRM Posted by Sen Byrne on 04 November 2005 - 01:18 - Source: The Inquirer Just a few days after the announcement of Sony using rootkits DRM on its CDs, a short while ago, Sony finally released a patch to hide its rootkits DRM, yet it will be still present on the system and still very difficult to fully remove. Apparently, the Inquirer has revealed just how overboard Sony went with its DRM in this case as apparently it effectively punishes only those who decided to do what they thought was the right thing by buying their CD! When the Rootkits is installed, it is very difficult to remove for even the most skilled technician; however it has one weakness in that the consumer has to agree to its EULA at least one time for it to get installed in the first place. This means any experienced user aware of copy protected audio CDs will know that all they have to do is hold down the shift key to stop the disc auto-loading and tracks are ripable, assuming the software was never installed previously. Also the disc's DRM is ineffective on a Macintosh and with non-Microsoft OS's. For users who take the illegitimate P2P approach, the tracks are widely available on file sharing networks and these users certainly dont get penalised with the DRM. Unfortunately, for those who are unhappy and wish to return their crippled disc, very few shops will take back an open product and even if so, there is usually a restocking fee. Finally, Sony claims that its CDs are not infected with any Spyware or Malware. Well it may not spy on the user's surfing / browsing habits, but I would certainly not call it free of Malware. This term is often used for bad, harmful, dangerous or otherwise abnormal software. As this software does intentionally interfere with the optical drive if it doesn't like what the user is doing and will also cause serious problems if the user tries removing it, this is a sure sign of Malware. SONY SCREWED UP WITH its rights removal to protect its profit margins philosophy and there is no way the use of rootkits can be justified. Caught with its pants down, what did it do? Make things right? Heck no, it blamed the user, and doesn't do anything more than window dressing to deflect what are valid criticisms. If you read the Sony PR spin masquerading as a FAQ here, the tepid responses it give are laughable. Number one states that the technology is used to prevent copying, but that is true for only Windows boxes, so why the discrimination? It only affects legitimate users. If you want to copy the music, all you need to do is hold down the shift key when inserting it and you are free to copy. That or have a non-Windows computer. To make matters worse, a cursory check of the file trading networks shows that the Van Zant album is available for download on a whim. The pirates who don't want to pay will have no trouble getting it, but those who abide by the law will get punished. Also, if you look at FAQ Number 4 under equipment compatibility, it cuts iPod users out of the mix. Hmm, Sony only sells Windows based computers, and sells a competitor to the iPod. Sense a conflict of interest there that you are paying for? The full lengthy article can be read here. It seems quite strange to see music CDs coming with software where the user must agree to an End User License Agreement (EULA) in order to play the disc. In the good old days, playing a record or a tape was as simple as popping it in, placing the needle on the record or pressing play, no matter what the device. Now, this aint as simple with playing CDs on a PC. Now Im finding it quite disturbing that the record labels are interesting in infecting consumers PCs with all sorts of DRM including quite dangerous software in this case. Some may say ah, that small player wont affect my high spec. PC, however imagine if all the record labels all took on their own DRM anti-piracy measures or worse still, started using rootkits like Sony. Chances are that there will be all sorts of unexpected conflicts that will be a nightmare to fix, optical drives acting rather strange, not to mention a lot of memory and CPU resources being hogged by all these DRM tools running in the background, all spying on the optical drives or what software is running. http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12632 the full article Sony DRM is worse than you might think Comment Active exploits and no help from Sony By Charlie Demerjian: Thursday 03 November 2005, 09:40 SONY SCREWED UP WITH its rights removal to protect its profit margins philosophy and there is no way the use of rootkits can be justified. Caught with its pants down, what did it do? Make things right? Heck no, it blamed the user, and doesn't do anything more than window dressing to deflect what are valid criticisms. If you read the Sony PR spin masquerading as a FAQ here, the tepid responses it give are laughable. Number one states that the technology is used to prevent copying, but that is true for only Windows boxes, so why the discrimination? It only affects legitimate users. If you want to copy the music, all you need to do is hold down the shift key when inserting it and you are free to copy. That or have a non-Windows computer. To make matters worse, a cursory check of the file trading networks shows that the Van Zant album is available for download on a whim. The pirates who don't want to pay will have no trouble getting it, but those who abide by the law will get punished. Also, if you look at FAQ Number 4 under equipment compatibility, it cuts iPod users out of the mix. Hmm, Sony only sells Windows based computers, and sells a competitor to the iPod. Sense a conflict of interest there that you are paying for? So to Number 2. "How do I know if a Sony/BMG disc is" DRM infected? It says it is clearly marked on the label, and yup, it's right, it is. I went over to Best Buy tonight and found it on the label plain and clear. There was also absolutely no listing of rootkits being forcibly installed on your PC, and not being uninstallable, however. There was no warning that you had to play it through their player, or that it would spit out the disc if you had programs open that it did not like. If you don't like these terms and rights removals, and you try to return it, those few places that will take back open recordings tend to charge a restock fee. In the case of Best Buy tonight, it is 15%, I asked. I don't think Sony will refund you that money. Number four tells you to consult the EULA when you want to copy the disc. Which madhouse did we step into that now means a CD needs a EULA? I stopped buying CDs so I wouldn't have to give money to rapacious weasels years ago, and none of the CDs I own have a EULA on them. It is madness. So, at Best Buy tonight, I tried to consult the EULA before I bought the Van Zant CD. It wasn't on the CD package, not on the shelves near by, and the blue shirted aisle trolls had no idea what I was talking about. No, they could not provide me with one, I did ask though. So, if you are dumb enough to buy a Sony CD, and don't want to rootkit your machine, you can't find out beforehand, have to agree to a one sided contract that you can't read before you say yes, and can't get your money back. Wonderful, thank you Sony. The last part of the FAQ is Number 6, which claims that its CDs are not spyware/malware infected. The prefix 'mal-' according to Merriam-Webster means 1) bad 2) abnormal 3) inadequate. -ware is short for software. This means malware is defined as bad software. If you look at the Sony rootkit, it does several things. It strips you of your rights, it potentially causes your computer harm, it breaks your computer if you remove it, and eats your CPU time. All of these things are bad, no question there. It also does the end user no good in any way, shape or form, not even by the most demented stretch of the imagination. It only hurts those who spent money to buy it. It does Sony no good either because the files are rippable on a whim by anything more intelligent than a half-drunk monkey. So, you have software that does you flat out harm, and no good for the producer. What isn't malware about this, and how can Sony claim this? This is the service pack from hell. If you want to look at this another way, take a different example. Imagine that you walked up to a person that you know and said: "Hey friend, check out this new cool CD I made". He drops it in his computer, and without his permission, it installs a rootkit on his machine. Good joke, right? Say you want to remove the Sony stuff. According to no less a source than The Washington Post, the bare minimum you have to do to remove the rootkitted DRM infection is give up your privacy. If you go to the Sony page, here, you have to give Sony your email at the very least, and according to the WP story, Sony then grills you about your reasons for not liking being rootkitted. So, if you want to remove it, go here and click the link. Don't use Firefox though, it won't work, it's Internet Explorer only. If you are concerned enough about security, you probably know enough not to use IE. Once again, brilliant Sony, just brilliant. The funniest part is that you don't actually remove the software with this tool, only make it visible, and you are still infected up and down with DRM. Should you be lucid enough to realise that you don't want this crap within a few miles of your system, you have to go through the grilling process above. Want to make it seem even more surreal? If you remove the malware and DRM infection, you can't play the CD anymore. Nope, the money you spent on Sony products is gone. Mal-way or the highway. If you try to remove it yourself, you risk breaking your optical discs, or it kills them for you. Mark from Sysinternals is more than smart enough to figure out how to fix this, but are you? Off the top of your head, how do you do that again, no looking it up? To make matters worse, it installs itself so it runs in safe mode, and if it conflicts with something, you are really hosed. Sony's response? "This component is not malicious and does not compromise security.". There are already exploits out there that take advantage of this. Sony compromised your system and will not directly allow you to remove it without compromising your privacy. It also will not replace your defective CDs with non-infected ones. If you hose your computer or network with this infection, and want to play your music, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Really, it won't help customers who simply don't want this, read #3 in the FAQ. Sony is generously working with anti-virus companies on this. Now, this means to deal with the problem, you have to know it's there, and that's kind of hard because the malware rootkit that Sony infects you with is designed to prevent this. Now, let's just pretend we don't realise that the the antivirus companies themselves are not complicit. If you want to mass-rootkit people, just ask Symantec beforehand. Look at what Cnet had to say about it. "The creator of the copy-protection software, a British company called First 4 Internet, said the cloaking mechanism was not a risk, and that its team worked closely with big antivirus companies such as Symantec to ensure that was the case." But there are active exploits already, as we pointed out earlier. All this makes you wonder a lot about Microsoft's upcoming security software, doesn't it? So, rather than come clean, Sony minimises the problem, blames the user, and refuses to help you out. If you have CDs infected with this rootkit and DRM, Sony has to replace them. They are, flat out, a danger to computing. Don't believe me? Look at that Washington Post article again. The head of F-Secure says that the Sony malware, when running on Windows Vista "breaks the operating system spectacularly". Nope, that can't be right, just ask Sony, because it said so in the FAQ. It won't fix the problem, they won't let you work around it legally and still listen to the music you paid for, and won't help you. As of four hours ago, these things were still on the shelf at Best Buy. To end on an up note, just think about these two things. What you are seeing is the light and happy side of rights removing DRM infections. There is a bill going through congress to remove more of your rights. Yes, they can't control the analogue hole, and can't legally force you to bow to them, so they are buying government to change the laws and accomplish both goals. No good will come to the end user because of this, but it sure will make a lot of people rich. More happy news? These merchants are designing the next generation drives called Blu-Ray with much more DRM built into the hardware. It is bad enough to make me back the views of Bill Gates on the subject with absolute open arms. These are scary times people, and if we let Sony get away with this now, it will only get worse and harder to stop later. http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=27426

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Nov 2005 @ 17:25

423.11.2005 18:20
chesty
Inactive

Could someone explain to me what a rookit is in layman's terms so even a non technical neophyte like myself could understand it ? You say that a rootkit is impossible to remove from a computer harddrive. What about if a person reinstalls the windows xp operating system and reformats their harddrive thus erasing everything ? I have enough technical savvy that i assembled every present computer that i own and from time to time i reinstall my windows operating system and reformat my harddrive to just to clean the gook out of it anyway. It's like a harddrive that got infected with a computer worm or virus and it screws up the harddrive. The worst that could happen is that a person would have to replace their computer harddrive and reinstall the windows xp operating system. You might just getaway with just doing a windows xp install and reformat the harddrive.

433.11.2005 18:25
chesty
Inactive

How would this technology apply to dvd copying ? So how can a watermark be used to keep people from cooking hollywood movies on their computers ? Something that would even make slysoft and dvdfab worthless? In theory the only way the cartels would be able to do this if every motherboard that was ever meant for sale in the united states had a chip installed on the motherboard that would detect a water mark or checksum on the dvd and prevent the dvd from being copied. It might be a derivative of the technology involved in fingerprint indentification. I see this in action where i work at a military base where fingerprint indentification is used to check in and out vehicle keys in a computer driven key storage system. This might sound like a very elaborate and expensive proposition. I want to ask the rest of you Would this be technically feasible? As it stands today a css encoded dvd will prevent the operating system and the dvd burner from reading the dvd VOB files. Actually a working drm model of such a thing would be cheaper built on a motherboard rather than installing the drm on a computer chip. Recently i heard that microsoft came out with a new operating system that was immediatly slammed because microsoft had made claims that illegal cd and dvd ripping would be more difficult. Microsoft denies all of these allegations.

443.11.2005 18:33

rootkit Glossary Your Guide, Juergen Haas From Juergen Haas, Your Guide to Focus on Linux. FREE Newsletter. Sign Up Now! Definition: rootkit: The name for a kit of hacker utilities placed on a UNIX machine after a successful compromise. A typical rootkit includes: password sniffer log cleaners replacement binaries for common programs on the system (e.g. inetd) backdoor programs replacements to programs like ls and find so that they will not reveal the presence of the rootkit files. Key point: A rootkit contains many trojaned programs. These programs are used to allow the hacker entry back into the system and to hide the presence of the hacker. For example, a trojaned "ps" command might hide the hacker's sniffer daemon from appearing in the process list. Alternatively, the hacker might trojan an existing daemon like inetd to run a background sniffer. Key point: The most important trojaned programs are those that deal with gaining access back into the system with a special password. Therefore, trojaned versions of login daemon, su, or telnetd are needed. Key point: Rootkits often contain setuid programs that normal users can run in order to elevate their privileges to root. Look for these in order to see if your system has been hacked. Culture: Also called "daemon kits". Example: The "t0rn" kit, including utilities like "t0rnsniff" and replacement binaries. In 2001, this kit was included as part of several Linux worms. From Hacking-Lexicon http://linux.about.com/cs/linux101/g/rootkit.htm A root kit is a set of tools frequently used by an intruder after cracking a computer system. These tools are intended to conceal running processes and files or system data, which helps an intruder maintain access to a system for malicious purposes. Root kits are known to exist for a variety of operating systems such as Linux, Solaris and versions of Microsoft Windows. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootkit

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 Nov 2005 @ 18:35

453.11.2005 18:40
duckNrun
Inactive

You will require a NEW DVD player (settop and/or PC) to use the new formats. At that time, as part of the licensing the manufactures will be compelled to follow certain standards just as they are required to do so now. This goes equally for hardware and software players as if they do not comply they will not be issued an encryption key (any search on css/de-css can give a 'simple' explanation of how the devices work and could be applied to future devices) enabling them to decrypt the info on the disc thereby allowing it to be played. No subversion of MB's will be required (though that would sure make the industry happy and is certainly where they eventually would like to end up!)

463.11.2005 18:55
bliberal
Inactive

Some very interesting posts have been made today. I learned a great deal. Thanks to all of you. I did want to make one last comment. Do you remember what happened to Circuit City and the hollywood legal firm that invested millions in the DivX dvd scheme. We were going to pony up th the bar and pay $4.50 for a DVD that we could watch for 24 to 48 hours and then it would sign off unless we used our telephone line to pay for re-activation. We were also going to have to buy a special DVD player. WELL IT WENT BELLYUP IN NO TIME. CIRCUIT CITY STOCK TO A BIG HIT ON THE MARKET, AND I LAUGHED MY BUT OFF.

474.11.2005 2:17

once again we are faced with the so called david and goliat issue,the movie industry against us little people.amoung us little people we have as much or more know how as the movie industry and in time we will overcome this watermark issue.

484.11.2005 9:19

Are they going to take out the standard dvd's and bring in the new HD-DVD's i have talk about this and noone has responded thank you

494.11.2005 9:37

OK Back to th e watermarking thing: Wouldn't it be smarter of them to try and get all recorders to shutdown when they hear the watermark? I mean-doesn't it seem like when you move the movie from the recorder to the computer, that people will unlock whatever algorithms or whatever that the players use to recognize the watermark-and remove the watermark from the file? This doesnt seem like it'd be too hard. Putting it into the camcorder would, on the other hand, almost surely require a hardware fix. Just my two cents.

504.11.2005 10:46

good thinking persbian, make it harder for the people that film the movies instead of punishing everyone that buys dvd's, it makes alot more sence to do it your way.

514.11.2005 12:58

I was thinking would it be possible to buy a next generation drive for a computer rip it and run it through a program like recode or DVD Shrink and burn it to a regular dvd????

524.11.2005 15:18

for those of you asking about whythe announcment combines movie THEFT via taping a new release from a theater screen, with consumer hd-dvd disks, I strongly suggest you consider this is not just about technology propaganda and p.r move. once again the entertainment industry is combining in the public mind outright theft with consuemer rights. this technology is interesting technically, but we get these same announcments every few months -- the message is alwasy the same, thieves and people seekign options for the films they actually pay for are the same. in two to three years when hd films on hd tv become widely avaialbe to the pubic, I am going to want to do what I have done with my audio and my normal density dvds -- put them on hd for ease of use/avaialblity. I have audio players that don't use physical media, and my video player in my car is a an xbox where I keep 40 films which I alternate. my beahvior, despite paying for the IP, is in argument of the RIAA and the mpaa, the same as a guy who films a theatrical relases and sells it. they intend to use the same technology against me -- and irony on top if irony, force me to pay the premium on the hardward i will have to buy with their protection mechanism as well!

534.11.2005 17:15

VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!! I will gladly, happily (spelling?) and graciously invest money wether it be $1 or $1000, into developmental and successful programs that will rip these protection shananigans to shreds, or blow new A holes in their protection programs. I believe when you pay for a product you have the right to do whatever the hell pleases you to do with that product.You paid for that piece of the pie, you should be able to eat it how you see fit!! VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!!

544.11.2005 18:22
Achilles3
Inactive

WTF?? So those home videos of my family that I backed up cannot be played anymore?

555.11.2005 0:56

as far as i know the watermark copyright protection does not affect the dvd movies or dvd writers currently on the open market,this is a new dvd that will be on the market sonetime soon.hope not too soon!

565.11.2005 3:27

no more standard dvd's???

575.11.2005 4:49

A reminder AnyDVD tackles Sony DRM Rootkit Virus! If AnyDVD is installed and active on your PC, the new so-called "Sony DRM Rootkit Virus" has no access to your system and the affected audio CD appears unprotected regardless! Another good reason to get AnyDVD! http://www.slysoft.com/en/download.html

586.11.2005 6:46

Now we have to hope the government of Antigua is responsilble enough not to be bought by Hollywood. Anyone taking bets on whether or not there are new homes and children's college tuition in the works for the members of this government?

596.11.2005 7:27

edit,was a double post

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 Nov 2005 @ 7:39

606.11.2005 7:29

After reading this thread,will you still buy sony???? Also you can post a comment in this thread VERY HOT READ,,Sony's DRM classed as Spyware and compromises PC security http://dvdxcopy.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/253611

616.11.2005 8:18

ARE WE STILL GOING TO HAVE THE STANDARD DVD'S WHEN THE NEW HD-DVD COMES OUT? HAVE MOVIES COME OUT IN BOTH STANDARD DVD AND HD-DVD???COULD SOME PLZ TELL ME B/C I HAVE SAID SOMETHING B4 AND I HAVENT SEEN A RESPONSE THANK YOU...sry for the caps but im guessing its the only way i will see an answer

626.11.2005 8:24

ye can try this program its free if ye buy a HD-DVD movie HDTV2DVD build 0.4 has been released - back up that HD-TV content! Posted by Jan Willem on 04 November 2005 - 19:39 - Source: HDTV2DVD The creators of SVCD2VCD have released a new version of HDTV2DVD. This is a new freeware tool to simply convert your HDTV material to DVD. HDTV captures are MPEG-2 Transport Streams at either 1280 x 720p or 1920 x 1080i resolution yet DVD is typically MPEG-2 Program Streams at 720 x 480 (for NTSC). This means that to play HD material on a "normal" DVD player you have to convert the source. This is what HDTV2DVD does in an user friendly way. By loading up your HDTV file (.ts or .tp), start the processing and HDTV2DVD will produce a VIDEO_TS DVD folder which you can burn. Build 0.4 - 03 11 2005 * Improved aspect ratio logic: now supports 4:3 as well as 16:9 source material. * Added clearer progress bar. Build 0.3 - 27 09 2005 * Added high bitrate matrices to improve encoding quality Build 0.2 - 23 09 2005 * Initial public release More information and a download link can be found here. Of course both our Video Edit Software and Satellite, HD-TV, Blu-ray and HD-DVD Forum are the right places to discuss this software. http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12635 HDTV2DVD HDTV2DVD is a new freeware tool to simply convert your HDTV material to DVD. HDTV captures are MPEG-2 Transport Streams at either 1280 x 720p or 1920 x 1080i resolution yet DVD is typically MPEG-2 Program Streams at 720 x 480 (for NTSC). This means that to play HD material on a "normal" DVD player you have to convert the source. This is what HDTV2DVD does in a simple, user friendly way. Load up your HDTV file (.ts or .tp), start the processing and HDTV2DVD will produce a VIDEO_TS DVD folder ready for you to burn! DOWNLOAD HERE http://www.svcd2dvd.com/HDTV2DVD/default.aspx

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 Nov 2005 @ 8:24

637.11.2005 11:05
edma655
Inactive

I found this article on PCWORLD.COM http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,122928,pg,3,00.asp Apparently they want to offer what's called 'managed copy' or the fair backing up of copies of DVDs Sounds too good to be true.

647.11.2005 16:22

WILL WE STILL HAVE STANARD DVD'S WHEN THE NEW HD-DVD COMES OUT OR WHAT B/C NO ONE AS ANSWERED ME AND IM SOPRRY THAT IM TYPING IN CAPS..

657.11.2005 16:22

WILL WE STILL HAVE STANARD DVD'S WHEN THE NEW HD-DVD COMES OUT OR WHAT B/C NO ONE AS ANSWERED ME AND IM SOPRRY THAT IM TYPING IN CAPS..

667.11.2005 16:22

WILL WE STILL HAVE STANARD DVD'S WHEN THE NEW HD-DVD COMES OUT OR WHAT B/C NO ONE AS ANSWERED ME AND IM SOPRRY THAT IM TYPING IN CAPS..

677.11.2005 16:22

WILL WE STILL HAVE STANARD DVD'S WHEN THE NEW HD-DVD COMES OUT OR WHAT B/C NO ONE AS ANSWERED ME AND IM SOPRRY THAT IM TYPING IN CAPS..

688.11.2005 2:07

just like the 45 and 33 music records was replaced by the casset,the casset replaced by the cd,the vhs replaced by th dvd and so on,no doubt the standard dvd will eventually be replaced by the blue-ray and hd-dvd.it will probably take some years before they stop making the standard dvd primarily because there are so many standaed dvd players out there that the movie industry realize there is still a lot of money to be made if they continue to produce the standard dvd for some years to come after the start of marketing blue-ray and hd-dvd.if you notice the dvd has replaced the vhs for some years now but they comtinue to produce vhs movies.the bottom line is that there is a lot of vhs and dvd players out there and money to be made so don`t look for any drastic change as far as dvd and vhs in the near future.look at it this way,how many of us will be willing to shell out between 500 and 1000 dollars for a rlue-ray hd-dvd player,this is an estimate of what they will cost and it could be higher.

698.11.2005 7:20

ty very much permatex for the info i didnt look at it that way once again ty

708.11.2005 12:28

Very interesting discussion. So will regular DVDs be replaced by HDDVD or BlueRay. I'm not an expert, but my opinion is probably not for a long time. 1. DVD is now the defacto standard for Home Video Viewing other than off the air or Sat TV. 2. If you don't have a DVD Player (shame on you), you still have a VHS unit. (my mom and dad). And you probably don't care. 3. So when the biggies release Blue Ray and HDDVD and the general consumer market finds out that, "wait, you mean I can't play the new discs in my Standard DVD player which I just got?" Both Blue Ray and HDDVD will suffer. Just like SACD and DVD-A have. People are satisified with their DVD playback quality, remember, most of the people in the world who own a TV and DVD, think that DVDs are the greatest thing since sliced bread. And when you tell them that DVDs are being phased out,,,,well, I just don't think standard DVD Video will go a way in the near or for that matter forseable future. Robert

Comments have been disabled for this article.

News archive