AfterDawn: Tech news

U.S. Senate to outlaw P2P networks?

Written by Jari Ketola @ 24 Jun 2004 3:22 User comments (64)

U.S. Senate to outlaw P2P networks? The U.S. Senate is preparing a bill that would ban P2P file-swapping networks, and could also imperil some consumer electronics devices. The Inducing Infringement of Copyrights Act bill introduced on Wednesday would make whoever intentionally induces any violation of copyright law legally liable for the violations.
In April 2003 federal court judge Stephen Wilson ruled that Streamcast is not liable for copyright infringements that take place using their software. Wilson saw that P2P software is comparable to a video recorder, which can be used for both legal and illegal purposes. In 1984 the Supreme Court ruled that manufacturers of VCRs cannot be held responsible for possible copyright infringements.

Since the IICA is designed to counter the rulings and put the blame on manufacturers, it could outlaw not only P2P networks, but also ReplayTV, and even the VCR. According to Jessica Litman, a professor at Wayne State University who specializes in copyright law, the wording of the bill is so broad that it might even put the Web sites distributing the software at risk for inducing infringement.

Senate members downplay the concerns by stating that the bill is aimed specifically at those who "conduct their business with the intention of inducing others to break the law".

You can find more discussion on the topic at our discussion forums.


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64 user comments

124.6.2004 5:24

OMFG! (sounds like I'm 12, doesn't it?) Seriously, though, this is major crap! I'm so sick of the government these days. Even with the best of intentions (which they usually never have) they screw everything up. Here's what will be an unpopular suggestion: a popular vote on everything! not just the president! lol, there are a lot of problems with that, but they probably are out-numbered by the f****ing Congress. That small rant felt good. Back to business. Is anyone for this crap?

224.6.2004 6:15

Check also the thread started yesterday: The Inducing Infringement of Copyright Act

324.6.2004 7:24

Thanks, Siber. Added a link to the thread.

424.6.2004 9:25

They keep trying to fight technology, but there's no point. It's all in vain. Evolution is Revolution. And Evolution is part of life. Either Evolve with Evolution, or become it's victim.

524.6.2004 9:34

A bought and paid for Congress at its best.

624.6.2004 12:11

If this legislation is passed technolgy advances will proceed at a snail crawl. I can see under this law the demise of all analog and digital recorders, cameras, photocopiers, fax machines, the computer and maybe even pen and paper. No laws are better than poorly created laws. This legislation needs to be defeated

724.6.2004 13:55

well all welcome BACK TO THE DARK AGES, the the church this time it's the MGM's, Parmonts, ect and the goverment is helping,

824.6.2004 13:57

well all welcome BACK TO THE DARK AGES, the the church this time it's the MGM's, Parmonts, ect and the goverment is helping,

924.6.2004 14:19

I have never used P2P and from the UK, so should not really comment but hell - freedom of speech..... I wonder how many of the members of the US Senate OR indeed their family members have used P2P.........yes let us see you, cos we know you are out there, Goddam hypocrits............. You think they would get the picture by now...... I know why don't we outlaw the US Senate for being jerks.........anyone want to second the motion?????????

1024.6.2004 15:43

they do seem to screw up far more than they fix. i'm sure they do some things right, but lines have to be drawn when it comes to whose rights you have to protect. Will the government pick a rich minority, or the lesser-funded minority (whom they are supposed to serve). I'm guessing they will side with the minority, because those are the guys who bought/paid, er..."lobbied", these representatives into office. Arg.

1124.6.2004 16:55

Government bans P2P.... We ban all the motherfuckers from making money.....

1224.6.2004 17:29

would you all calm the FUCK down? this obviously will never pass. AND YOU CAN QUOTE ME ON THAT.

1324.6.2004 17:53

i agree. this will never pass. there is no good way to word a bill to kill P2P without affecting too many other technologies and legit business. the supreme courtr already ruled on this. hollywood vs. sony betamax. no bill worded like that will pass. remember, before coming down on our whole government, that one or two senators can propose any rediculous legislation they want. if it passes, then you can point the finger at individuals voting records. everyone is the gov is not fooled, its always an uphill battlke against the dollar holders.

1424.6.2004 18:21

Nato1200: The bill doesn't outlaw P2P organizations in so many words. It intends to create new legislation (The Inducing Infringement of Copyright Act) that targets a new class of people who can be sued for copyright infringement. I suggest you do not underestimate this. If anything, we should all read up on it. This class of 'suee's' would include P2P developers, makers of software that permits copying, etc..."The standard is whether a "reasonable person" would believe a product or service "intentionally aids, abets, induces, or procures" copyright violations". "It is illegal and immoral to induce or encourage children to commit crimes," Hatch, a Utah Republican, says in a statement. "Tragically, some corporations now seem to think that they can legally profit by inducing children to steal. Some think they can legally lure children into breaking the law with false promises of 'free music.'". "The bill has powerful backers. Among its co-sponsors are Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, a Tennessee Republican; Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, a South Dakota Democrat; and Judiciary Committee ranking Democrat Patrick Leahy from Vermont". These are not just any '1 or 2 Senators'...

1524.6.2004 22:59

im just saying any legilation can be introduced. though, it may not be passed. if this bill is worded where fax machines, tivos, vcrs, copy machines, and video cameras are liable for infringement the lawsuits will change the landscape of technology. it would be easy to argue a public library is "inducing" copyright infringement. that point alone is overwhelming in implication. also, record labels and hollywood could be sued for "inducing" copyright infringement by collusion, price fixing, and unreasonably priced "legal" downloads forcing users to seek infringing alternatives. adobe could be sued into oblivion. it seems so broad. in fact i am going to sue music match for all of my songs that might be ripped since they are "inducing" people to copy my cd. also, i am a tennessean. i am very aware what bill frist is up to. i didnt vote for him.

1624.6.2004 23:02

addendum: the public library would be "inducing" by having a xerox machine available. i know small portions being copied is permissable under fair use laws in the US, but it woulod be possible to conclude that i could copy an entire book, magazine, newspaper, or photograph gallery.

1725.6.2004 6:31

it wont pass. you cant hold companies liable for what people do with ther products. thats as stupid as the people that are trying to sue the gun manufacturers because they got shot with one of there guns. thats like saying if someone hits me with a ford i can sue ford instead of the driver.

1825.6.2004 9:03

lol, tell that to the dvdxcopy ppl pcshateme, they can and eventually they will, this (even tho i doubt it will go through) is a step towards more of your rights being taken away with the fake 'nothing to worry if you have nothing to hide' line being tagged on, i say daily body-cavity searches for everyone inc. the pres. in the white house, i mean .... if they have nothing to hide ......

1925.6.2004 22:26

don't be so fast,pcshateme,just this week,here in New Jersey,some cops sued a gun company,and a pawn shop,and won. They claim the pawn shop sold a gun to this man who later shot at both of them,crippling one,and critically wounding the other, They now share a million dollar settlement

2026.6.2004 0:17

I know this bullshit won't pass, but its scary to think that it made it to congress. Its disturbing what they do to regulate people just sharing what was paid for. It's like letting someone borrow a movie without having to return it. I don't believe when you buy a cd/dvd, you're just borrowing it from the creators, you're buying the right to play it, and let others hear it. You can throw it away if you wish. Just by the fact that they'd be monitoring P2P means they're already in our computers. As long as I'm not making a profit off of copyrighted material, I should be allowed to do as I choose with it. If they were to impose this crap on us, what we need to do is boycott all media products. DVDs and CDs, thats the only way to show them how we feel. They need us, it's not the other way around.

2126.6.2004 6:31

Well P2P or no P2P I will still copy music if I had to go back to recording it off the radio I have always done way before P2P was thought of and the same with movies and VHS recording them off tv or hooking two vhs players together, people have been copying things for years and they can not stop that. I dont think people should copy things in mass production and sell them but for personal use definately yes. It's not like these famous people dont have enough money, entainers make more money than they should to begin with. The teachers and firefighter police and just your average worker dont make jack crap but yet someone can get up and sing or pretend to be someone else and make millions I have never agreed with that oh and ofcourse pro sports players. I dont think they are suffering because people are downloading music or media. People still go to the movies and still go to concerts and still by cd's a videos so they need to get over it and everyone can thank Metallica for starting this crap in the first place, the same guys who once said they would never make a video because they did not want to be posers but I guess the money became more appealing.

2226.6.2004 13:25

I've read through this thread and even though there was a time when this could never pass, we all must remember that this is an election year and our congress is based on the concept, "you scrath my back I'll scratch yours!" There are a lot of issues coming up where senators are going to need support from otherwise opponents (the economy, foreign trade policies, social security, etc...). Lobbyists with lots of financial reserves like the NRA, AARP and now the RIAA, have a lot of funds to donate to camapaigns and definitely sway several issues for congress men and women.

2326.6.2004 15:06

i'm scared, guys... :(

2427.6.2004 8:20

Ok here goes my 2 cents worth. hope i dont get banned or arrested. I think the government is a crock of sh**, they cant keep their hands out of anyones pockets. They bribe each other with death threats against each others family. they all use the p2p services, but want to control it for there use only. did you know if you broke the law and a senator or other legal offical breaks the law that you get more severly punished, they get a fine or a slap on the wrist. unfair, unfair you say, then vote this stupid legislation down. the government is a crock, a fake, a farse, nothing but a bunch of wealthly businessmen trying to make there money more and more, what a bunch of pigs !!!! MadHacker - Rules again, and will continue to help the cracking society

2527.6.2004 11:44

jeje us goverment o you know what i think about it i just agree with Madhacker i think the senate has more to worry about like their war in Irak illegal inmigrants Smoking issues etc etc and uh yeah join in IRC Port: 6667 #Hackemate another thing catch us if you can<<<< o i love this Maria=)

2627.6.2004 13:50

What if the citizens of the "Untied States Of Anemia" gave the politicians over to Al Qaeda" Then the correct "heads" would get cut off!!!

2727.6.2004 14:05

you loony left wingers are starting to sound like little children. grow up. just cause 3 or 4 senators are dumb enough to try to bring this up doesnt mean america sucks. people try to pass dumb laws everyday, even in your precious parlements. dont start a "europe vs. america debate" because we both know that if it werent for the united states youd all be speaking german by now.

2827.6.2004 14:20

pshateme, although I agree with you about the need to stay off an argument on 'US vs Europe, which world is the most twisted' when the headline of the thread is "US Senate to outlaw P2P networks?", your tired old storyline about America having saved Europeans from 'speaking German now' doesn't help any here. Europeans actually are STILL very grateful for what your GRANDFATHERS or FATHERS did for Europe but they cannot stay grateful - forever and ever - and to you personally. They also do not expect you to be grateful to Lafayette and the French for helping you save your ass during the War of Independence. Calling people you try to communicate with 'loony left wingers that sound like children' does not promote your point of view very much either.

2927.6.2004 14:24

Well i prefer russian myself speaking. i think the usa government is a tratior, and a bunch of communist liars. they have always screwed over the tax payers. i think they should give up there money to help finace this war and all the bullsh@t going on. Mad Hacker

3027.6.2004 14:31

MADhacker, normally I would wish that I could understand what you are trying to say here but - on second thought - I really don't.

3127.6.2004 23:17

Madhacker's right, money is spent so congress can argue over people listening to music and watching dvd's. We need to think of all the savages trying to kill us a half a world away.

3229.6.2004 10:32

yes we worry alot about illegal's maria, but not as much as we should. with all the other crap going on in this country, i think they could surely find more to worry about than people on p2p's.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 29 Jun 2004 @ 10:36 - friend of the forums, great guitar player
#afterdawn (well i have no idea where it is anymore)

3329.6.2004 13:59

mad hacker boy are you srewed up, im retired military, our taxes are the lowwest in the world damn near, ask the euro people about taxes there high, i know i was there in the early 90's or how much they pay for gas guy, i was 3 pound a litter whi i was there 3 pounds = 1 pund was 1.64 amercian so dont complain cause you have no idea.

3429.6.2004 18:03

hello, new to the forum, but obsessed with the topic. I dont know if i can do this, and i really hope i can. I was reading an article on hotwired about sen. orin hatch from utah wanting to make it legal for ANY company who Suspects a user to be illegally downloading they're copyrighted material to log into that supspected offenders computer and nuke it. my only problem with that is... everything. It is boarderline comunist to me, so i was all in a mood about it and went looking for an internet users rights site to voice my opinion. Not a single one to be found. So i decided to create my own. My goal with this site is to gather enough supporters and enough funds to loby in congress for the rights of internet users. Lets face it folks. the only way your gonna keep sony and mga from writing the laws governing the internet is to beat them with money in congress. if anyone is interested the web site address is The site is still under heavy building cuz i aint no web designer. But i recently got the professional services of a web designer and hosting service to donate they're time and energy. thank you and Anyways, just thought i would bring it up hoping that we can all band together and start making sure our rights stop being trampled. Again hope i am allowed to do this. Thanks for reading everyone

If you don't fight, you'll never win.

3530.6.2004 0:05

Wow, Orin Hatch was for this sht? He's usually very conservative. Like I said, unless a profit is being made, its nobody's business what I download.

3630.6.2004 7:54

no show get a life guy or girl. I can say what the h@ll i want and feel. im retired military also so go F off on someone else. apparently you are a bush fan, i hate bush hes a fraking communist. hes crooked, and everything. also this is his own private war, should send him over there to fight!!! give him a gun, and a uniform, let him see how it feels on the front lines. now back to the other topic. i say if they wanna ban p2p, then soon enough they are gonna ban the internet, freedom of speech etc. also if they wanted they could put a small fee on the p2p sites. maybe a couple bucks a mth. then they could make it legit. Mad Hacker

3730.6.2004 8:38

humm, liberating 50 million people from an oppressive rule. am i the only one who sees that as being a good thing? oh, so its his private war eh? well maybe if the UN didnt have its hands in saddams wallet we could have finished this during round one in 91. the only reason Bush Sr. didnt just finish the job is because the UN wouldnt let him, why? cause it was stealing money from iraq and wanted saddam to stay in power for there own selfish reasons. i fail to see how this is "bush's war" millions of lives have been spared, and maybe there was no WMD, but iraq broke 17 UN resolutions. the UN didnt care so long as they still got there money. the us enforced the law. thats it.

3830.6.2004 8:57

well maybe they should have ignored the un. Back to the main topic of P2P networks. I think we should be allowed to have the P2P networks. These comapanies make tons of money. Then drive the prices up higher so they encourage P2P networks. If they wanted to kill the P2P networks lower your F prices and maybe it will stop. Cd's cost $0.15 to make, and to burn songs on them takes about all of 5-10 min. Sell a cd for about 5 or 6 bucks instead of 15-25 dollars and they may stop P2P networks. Same goes with software. I say Fuck The Company that wants $6,000-13,000 for a software program. MH

3930.6.2004 9:04

I have to agree with Madhacker here. I think what the problem is, is that for the first time in history consumers have the ability to say "no your not gonna rape me anymore, cuz i no longer have to pay it." and the entertainment companies dont know what to do about it. They are so used to raping the consumer that they will spend millions of dollars presecuting a 14 year old kid who likes m&m or creating useless disk protections instead of just charging a fair price for they're product. I believe that 90% of people are deep down honest. And would pay a fair price for a product as opposed to stealing it. But as long as we all feel like we are being screwed. They will not stop it no matter the laws they pass.

401.7.2004 11:07

Good luck. Just another attempt of the United States keeping a "thumb" on it's people. There are 6 billion people in this world and 300 million in this country...........what are they gonna do..........put the whole country in jail. B/C that's what they're going to have to do b/c NO ONE will stop using Kazaa. There is no feasible way to monitor the 100 million computers in the US and whether or not they are actively using one (1) tiny, specific program. They will ban and possibly pass a law and people will circumvent and break the law and they will have to throw thousands and thousands in jail. It better not pass or maybe the citizens of the US should consider overthrowing the gov't and BUSH. Bush is such a prick and a liar and he's the reason behind all this bullshit regulating. There's money in it for him........just like there was when HE LIED TO US about WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION so as to go to war (which generates mass amounts of income). Anyone who like Bush............GET THE HELL OUT OF THIS COUNTRY. He represents US and he lied to us.........fuck all who support him.......and GOD have mercy on your soul.

411.7.2004 11:27

humm, liberating 50 million people from an oppressive rule. am i the only one who sees that as being a good thing? oh, so its his private war eh? well maybe if the UN didnt have its hands in saddams wallet we could have finished this during round one in 91. the only reason Bush Sr. didnt just finish the job is because the UN wouldnt let him, why? cause it was stealing money from iraq and wanted saddam to stay in power for there own selfish reasons. i fail to see how this is "bush's war" millions of lives have been spared, and maybe there was no WMD, but iraq broke 17 UN resolutions. the UN didnt care so long as they still got there money. the us enforced the law. thats it. wake up left. wake up.

421.7.2004 14:46

Sorry,I just couldn't resist: The Left is awake. The Right is just so damn loud and freakin' pushy!!!!!!!!!!!!! We need a more balanced attitude in this country. Sometimes it seems that we are on a slow decline towards a full fledged fascist state. It seems to have already become a police state. I dig security and understand the Europe vs US debate, but during my times abroad what I noticed were all the armed men at the airports of Europe (Rome in particular). This was something that I had not seen in America until post 9/11. So, whatever is happening is truly a "New World Order" way beyond any Orwellian prophecy concerning "newspeak" and "big brother"-type oppression. It's not just the US, Its all over the freakin' world! As for the "speaking German" comment I would have to call attention to the founding of this country. Did you know that German was the only other language considered by the "founding fathers" as a national language. It was debated. Look it up. At that time Germans made up the second largest majority. Many New Englanders were actually German cousins. So German would not have made much of a difference. Both languages come from the same root anyway, according to History in Linguistics. And yes, some European countries have high taxes, but they also have forms of free healthcare and offer social welfare to its citizens without stigmatizing them. Also, as an artist living and paying taxes in America, I can say that European countries know how to treat their artists. For example, in Austria artists are given free stipends for life! No such democratic support from any American agency here unless you create censored work! The only grants given here are intenseley competed for. A Rat race, if you ask me. As for "liberating 50 million people.." well, I really don't think you even believe that. If you buy into that one then I will pray for you, my son. I love P2Ps. Peer to Peer, not Politics to Politics. I totally agree with Madhacker. Bad, short-sighted bills never last even when they're passed.

431.7.2004 16:36

i pray for people who are as blinded as yourself. (btw i knew about the german thing, it was voted down by only one vote) these people dont have to worry about being raped, tourtured or oppressed anymore and if you cant see that as good, than you are a blind fool plain and simple.

441.7.2004 16:39

thought this was about p2p

451.7.2004 17:04


461.7.2004 17:28

Ah sooo. 'Tis a shame indeed, but all too telling that when right-wing pseudo-intellectuals are shown the holes in their arguments they resort to calling names. Sticks-n-stones my friend. I am no "blind fool". It sounds like you could use a good prayer, or maybe you just need to be forced to your knees. FLAME ON!

471.7.2004 17:43

BTW: Last time I checked we were on planet Earth. We all have to worry about being raped, tortured and oppressed (in one form or another) everywhere we go and it's not good! Don't be naive.

481.7.2004 17:50

Yaucano, I could have told you ahead of time what kind of response you would get. Shouting, insulting and hurling names at people are typical answers you can expect to get when a knowledgeable and well-constructed point is raised. I have long given up hope in convincing anybody in this century with a different point of view than mine. All I get is senseless argumentation, ranting and raving. Not many people even want to hear what your position is, they just want to hear themselves argue. Good luck with this one!

491.7.2004 18:09

just thought i would give you guys the web page about senator orin hatch (R) Utah. this is the original news post from the wired news. in case any of you wanted to read it for yourselves.,1283,59305,00.html Hope it makes you madd enough to wanna fight

501.7.2004 18:19

by the way, the main site is down for cyberights, but you can still view the old content at if you wanna

511.7.2004 19:10

WOW Just read the Orrin Hatch article. I don't know if it sounds Communist, but it certainly rings fascistic. Any programmer worth his salt would never agree to develop such corrosive software. Government cannot violate the private lives and personal property and rights of people to "defend" the rights of copyright holders (2 wrongs dont make a right) Right? Everything copied is for personal use only. They need to figure out how to track those who profit from those personal copies. It is profiteering that is unwelcomed. They need to go after those who mass copy products for sale on various black markets. Leave the individuals personal space and property alone! After all it is the free Market enterprise that is being threatened, not the copyright holders themselves. Sounds to me like P2P programmers need to be more attuned as to how their programs are being used. A fair enough settlement would be a small subscription fee for its use. I'd agree to that, but funding the development of software that could remotely disable your computer is just wrong. To anyone out there who knows how: Dont you think it's time for a round of viruses aimed at the Hatch site. >)

521.7.2004 19:13

BTW: siber, thanks for your comments. ;) ;) LOL

531.7.2004 19:43

Yaucano, Nothing is free. Someone has to earn the money to pay for that "Free Healthcare" and "Social Welfare". [/For example, in Austria artists are given free stipends for life!] If you are not getting enough free stuff here in the USA. Emmigrate and be a burden on some other country's working people. MadHacker; care to post your Name, Rank & Serial number? Sounds to me you might have retired as an E-5. Only did enough to get a retirement! 20 years? A cook? Emmigrate also to the Socialist country of your choice. da_judge; You obviously have a "hard on" for Orrin Hatch. Your link was to an excerpt on a webpage that is over a year old. Care to post the entire text of his oration, on the Senate Floor, for that day? A little context may be in order. Wish I had time to go further tonight. P2P will not die as long as we have freedom of speach. Person to person is also P2P. 1st Ammendment will go on. To protect the first one, we also have the second one.... TC

541.7.2004 22:34

Funny how some right-wing partisan people react. They often say things like, "If you don't like it here, then go somewhere else." Where do they get the nerve to suggest that you should leave a country you were born in. Message to the Right: Rest assured. No one wants to throw the baby out with the bathwater! Buik, If you had successfully read my comments you would know that it is quite clear to me that free healthcare and other socially relevant government programs cost money. That's why taxes are high in some countries in Europe. It is a given. But taxes are high here too. You wrote, "Nothing is free." in one sentence and then you wrote, "If you are not getting enough free stuff here in the US. Emmigrate etc." The latter comment contradicts the first. You not only state the obvious in the first sentence but you fall back on yourself in your zeal to insult me and suggest that I "emmigrate." I work and pay taxes. I have paid for everything I have! I wonder, do you "emmigrate". Have you ever even left the bubble that you're in? I mean as a human being, not stationed on some barrack cloistered away in some bunker on foreign soil. Don't get me wrong. My brother is in Iraq. We have our differences. If you're such a "soldier" as your comment implies then why dishonor another's term of service? I refer to your challenge to Madhacker. I welcome context, but the issue concerns one government official suggesting development of software that will deliberately damage personal property. That is irresponsible. I can't see how context will change my opinion. I guess you think it's okay. Lastly, Why don't you emmigrate? From the tone of your comments though, I don't think you could successfully live anywhere else. I for one am glad that I can live anywhere I choose. "Every citizen is a frontline soldier."

552.7.2004 19:09

I realize that the link i posted is an old article. My point wasnt to say that it is currently happening. It was just to point out the general mood in our legislature. It will probably never come to nuking citizens computers. And all i hear is the first amem. or the 2nd amen. We cant hide behind those forever. and if you think that those 2 clauses in our constitution will protect you from having your rights trampled, you live in a very dark world. How far off do you think it is for companies to start installing tracking software in they're movies that notify the developer when it is installed. How far off do you think it is when it is mandated for isp's to report excessive usage of bandwidth. If you wanna hide behind liberties you think you have be my guest. But dont talk down to someone that is wanting to protect your future rights.

If you don't fight, you'll never win.

562.7.2004 20:01

Yaucano. First and foremost, tell your brother that I thank him for his service. And that I hope that he returns safely to the US. I was wondering if I put too many "m"s in emigrate. Don't have to type that word very often. You and I have each other pegged politically. I dont think either of us are going to change. pointless argument from here on out. I will not apologize for anything said thus far and do not accept your criticisms. Im sure you feel the same. Otherwise, I would not have received your attention. We are totally off post at this point. What we need to do is read the proposed amendment. Read the transcript of what Trent Lott said on the senate floor that day. Just the facts please!! Not some journalistic synopsis that supports a preconceived idea. There tends to be a lot of "knee jerking" going on these days. I am not in support of the proposed amendment. I do not believe that companies have the right to "spy" on citizens in any way, shape, or form. P2P is a tool for transfer of data from multiple sources. It is no different than the USPS, UPS, FedEx, etc. That it has been exploited to "pirate" copyrighted material is regretable. Just hate how things have gone. Teach me how to read & then regret you also taught me how to write? I could make copies that way of any text I come across. Yaucano, let's bury the hatchet, for now, on this thread. We can parse later. In parting, The Pirate act was sponsored by Patrick Leahy (D). Co-sponsors are: Lamar Alexander (R), Orrin Hatch (R), and Charles Schumer (D). Now I am getting scared. TC

572.7.2004 20:36's been a pleasure reading your exchanges 'in the middle of the jungle'.

582.7.2004 20:45

Indeed -Hatchet buried 'nuff said. Siber, This is why I love America.

595.7.2004 0:36

Actually, destroying computers is more communistic than facist. Facism is just the belief in the philosophy that a certain race, religion, or way of life is superior to another. Communism is the complete division of resources to eliminate classes. Not allowing some in a commune to have a certain product is communistic.

605.7.2004 5:32

fascism and fascist, otherwise well put. Accusing the U.S. Senate of communism for wanting to outlaw P2P networks would add an interesting angle.

615.7.2004 8:06

they are a bunch of communist pigs!!!! the government as a whole is a communist pig!!! that must be why i have been getting strange phone calls off and on, maybe my words are getting to them and they are coming to visit me lol...... My attitude towards the government on this issue would be to tell them to take there BS and shove it up there Azz. And leave us people alone. P2P is a good thing , lets keep it around, screw the government, and all in government that are crooked, liars, cheats, and a bunch of f pansies!!! Mad Hacker-

625.7.2004 12:54

I see your point. It is expedient politically-speaking to use the word "communist", but Once Upon a Time Communism meant something more than Class Warfare and Elitism. lazygig, "Fascism is just the belief in the philosophy that a certain race, religion, or way of life is superior to another." You have described Racism, my friend. Fascism is the acting out of that belief. Someone who can suggest legislation for the destruction of private property would have to think themselves superior in order to do so. "Communism is the complete division of resources to eliminate classes." The Senators suggestion is not about the "complete division" of resources, it is about negating the individuals right to Free Speech. On second thought, Communism and Fascism have been conflated by the American media since the 1950's to the point where many Americans can't tell the difference (that's exactly how Government officials want it) I don't think a chatroom discussion is going to change that.

635.7.2004 13:12

Yaucano, stick around.

645.7.2004 14:16 A good start for those who want to start hurling words. Take you BP Rx to start with. Let's all make sure we know what the word(s) mean before we use them. Yaucano, I suspect we may have more in common than we first thought. If you just like a good argument. We can do that also. Inherited the argument thing from my mother. Dad has Prussian heritage. We have been all over the political spectrum as far as titles are concerned. There needs to be some kind of structure & organization in any society. Anarchy simply will not cut it. Anarchy is a "free for all". I have seen posts from some users that appear, to me, to be "I want to do what ever I want, when I want to & how I want to". Chaos is not the way civilization progresses. TC

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